Finnair Plus - Flybe to fly part of AY's European network

Sorry, in Finnish only

Finnairin kumppaniksi Euroopan-lennoissa tuleekin englantilainen Flybe. Se alkaa operoida kahtatoista Finnairin Embraer 190 -konetta.

Myös Flyben hoitoon siirtyvien reittien lentäjät ja matkustamohenkilöstö siirtyisivät Flyben palvelukseen, ellei neuvotteluissa muuta sovita, Finnair kertoi tiedotteessaan.

Toimitusjohtaja Mika Vehviläisen mukaan nyt tehty aiesopimus kattaa noin kolmanneksen Finnairin Euroopan-lennoista. Flyben on määrä alkaa lentää niitä lokakuusta lähtien.

Vehviläinen arvioi, että asiakkaan näkökulmasta muutos on "lähes huomaamaton".

Finnair ja Flybe perustivat jo viime vuonna Flybe Nordic -yhtiön, josta Flybe omistaa 60 ja Finnair 40 prosenttia. Flybe on tähän mennessä operoinut Finnairin sopimuslentoja yhteensä kahdeksalla koneella.

Finnair kertoi jo helmikuussa, että etsii kumppania tappiollisen Euroopan-liikenteen hoitoon. Ilta-Sanomat uutisoi aiemmin tänään, että Finnair olisi sopinut Euroopan-lentojen hoidosta Norwegianin kanssa.

Finnairin tiedotteen mukaan eri vaihtoehtoja selvitetään edelleen ja uusien kumppanuuksien muodostaminen on yhä mahdollista.

In short - from October Flybe will operate AY's 12 Embraer planes, about a third of AY's European network. Crew will also transfer to Flybe.

According to Vehviläinen customers will hardly notice the change. [OW earning/burning??]
===

I have bad vibes - there must be some reason FlyBe is known in the UK as FlyMaybe

From the press release:

22.5.2012 08:43:59 - OMX Helsinki, News
Finnair and Flybe to expand cooperation for cost efficient European connections
Finnair Plc
Press release

Finnair and Flybe to expand cooperation for cost efficient European connections

Companies have signed MoU transferring 12 Finnair Embraer aircraft to Flybe

Finnair and the largest European regional airline Flybe of UK today announced
that the companies plan to extend their cooperation to offer cost efficient
European connections for Finnair’s passengers.

Last year Finnair and Flybe formed Flybe Nordic AB, of which Flybe owns 60 %
and Finnair 40 %. The companies have now signed a Memorandum of Understanding
(MoU) according to which Finnair will transfer twelve 100 seat Embraer
aircraft, to Flybe. Starting October 2012 Flybe will operate these aircraft on
Finnair routes for Finnair. The move is a part of Finnair’s efforts to improve
the profitability of its European network, and it offers a platform for growth
for Flybe Nordic.

“This move is a part of our strategy to restore Finnair’s profitability”, says
Mika Vehviläinen, Finnair CEO. “The MoU covers approximately one third of our
European flights. Flybe offers a cost efficient platform for operating this
traffic, and enables us to continue to offer a wide network and multiple
frequencies to both our Finnish customers and our customers flying between
Europe and Finnair’s Asian destinations.”

“Today’s announcement marks another step in our journey of growth, as we extend
further our contract flying operations for Finnair. The extension of the
contr
act flying business is a key part of Flybe Finland’s strategy, providing
the business with a good balance of risk”, Mike Rutter, Managing Director of
Flybe Europe,

From the customer point view, the change will be virtually unnoticed. Finnair
continues to be responsible for sales, marketing and customer support, but the
flights are operated by Flybe.

Once the agreement is completed, 12 Embraer aircraft and the traffic operated
with them transfers from Finnair to Flybe. In connection with this business
transfer, cabin attendants and pilots for this traffic will transfer with the
business, unless otherwise agreed in negotiations with personnel. Negotiations
on cost savings between Finnair and the Finnish Airline Pilots' Association
have proceeded in a constructive manner during the spring. If the savings
agreement under preparation is completed, pilots transferring to operate Flybe
flights would return to Finnair in stages to be trained as Airbus pilots for
Finnair’s growing Asian traffic.

Finnair is proceeding on track with its transformation program that targets 140
million euro annual savings to restore profitability and improve
competitiveness. Finnair continues to seek to improve the profitability of the
rest of its European traffic. Alternatives include, as has been previously
communicated, decreasing the costs together with own personnel or forming
additional partnerships.

Finnair announced on August 5, 2011 that it targeted d
ecreases in its annual
costs of 140 million euros by 2014. Finnair has already announced that it:

• has chosen Swissport as its partner for baggage and apron services
• is optimizing the size of its fleet in European air traffic, has discontinued
the leases of four Airbus 320 series aircraft, and subleased five Embraer 170
aircraft
• has signed an Memorandum of Understanding on the sales of its catering
business to LSG Services
• has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with SR Technics on engine and
component services
• seeks solutions to improve the profitability of its European traffic
• has improved its route planning and aircraft utilisation
• is streamlining its support functions as well as marketing and distribution
activities
• has initiated numerous other savings measures throughout the company

I have not any experience of Flybe, but I fear this development.

First, Ay have said they were talking to several european partners for this. If they choose flybe, all other major airlines must have turned down the idea. That is bad. If they could have teamed up with one of the bigger in europe, that would have been good. Apparently all the major players are confident that they will survive, and that AY is the one in biggest trouble.

Secondly, to me it seems that the flybe concept is to turn as much as possible of euro-traffic into LCC model. Cost reduction can probably not come from personnel, but from service. More scandinavian and european destinations will be served by economy class only, there will be no lounges for silver/gold/plat, there will be no points earned on some lines, and 500 points on others.

For now it is the embraer fleet that is transferred, which will impact scandinavian traffic.

Two thirds of their European traffic is outside this deal. In the press conference, Vehviläinen just said that they´re looking for a partner for the airbus-routes too. Norwegian is not one of them.

A confusing situation. AY livery and service concept (what a joke nowadays in Y!) should prevail, only a small logo should deceive the planes operated by FlyBe Nordic staff. Go figure... The labour unions may still have something to add to this soup.

Two thirds of their European traffic is outside this deal. In the press conference, Vehviläinen just said that they´re looking for a partner for the airbus-routes too. Norwegian is not one of them.

OK, I can live with that if the solution is something like - put the embraers into LCC and make sure all odd scandinavian airports can connect to HEL, kicking Norwegian and Ryanair in the butt. Put the A320s into a quality joint venture, that both serves intra-europeean point-to-point flying, as well as getting people to the OW hubs, like HEL, LHR, BER, MAD, for LH connections. AY cannot do that alone, as it is far to HEl-centric.

Any idea if Flybe will offer J class or not...? It's quite a joke in E90 (and especially in E70 w/o front lav) anyway but I still hope they'll keep it...otherwise this will downgrade the whole AY offering by a mile, if not two...

Any idea if Flybe will offer J class or not...?

The GDS'es are already updated, looks like J-class stays

120NOVWAWHEL‡AY«
20NOV TUE WAW/Z‡1 HEL/‡1
*
1AY/BE 3762 J8 C7 D6 I7*WAWHEL 955A 1235P E70 B 0 XJS DCA /E
F6 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 P9 T9 L8 V9
*
2AY/BE 3776 J8 C8 D6 I6*WAWHEL 105P 345P E70 L 0 XS DCA /E
F6 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 P9 T9 L9 V9
*
3AY 744 J6 C6 D6 I6*WAWHEL 650P 935P E90 D 0 DCA /E
F6 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 P9 T8 L9 V9
NO MORE AY-1* FOR INTERLINE CONX
* - FOR ADDITIONAL CLASSES ENTER 1*C



1 AY3762J 20NOV T WAWHEL SS1 955A 1235P /DCAY /E
OPERATED BY FLYBE LIMITED

The GDS'es are already updated, looks like J-class stays
...
...

If they are keeping theses flight numbers (and earlier promises as well) those flights will still earn award and tierpoints as normal AY flights and also allow AY elites access to lounges.
Well, let's see when October comes...

If they are keeping theses flight numbers (and earlier promises as well) those flights will still earn award and tierpoints as normal AY flights and also allow AY elites access to lounges.
Well, let's see when October comes...

The points earning and lounge access are something I took as granted...if they take those away what's the point of the whole AY brand anymore...? Lounge only if you fly to/from certain location on certain metal...that would never ever work..

The GDS'es are already updated, looks like J-class stays [/B]

Thanks,

1AY/BE 3762 J8 C7 D6 I7*WAWHEL 955A 1235P E70 B 0 XJS DCA /E
F6 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 P9 T9 L8 V9
*
2AY/BE 3776 J8 C8 D6 I6*WAWHEL 105P 345P E70 L 0 XS DCA /E
F6 Y9 B9 H9 K9 M9 P9 T9 L9 V9


I see here nothing new, just normal FlyBe Nordic E70 flights.

I see here nothing new, just normal FlyBe Nordic E70 flights.

What are you saying here...regardless of class availability showing for J/C/D/I there's no actual J class offered?

Trying to say that Flybe has been operated E70 for AY for a while so those schedules TPJ posted there is nothing new according the news we heard today about outsourcing AY E90 fleet (12 aircrafts) to FlyBe.

Comprende? :D

Trying to say that Flybe has been operated E70 for AY for a while so those schedules TPJ posted there is nothing new according the news we heard today about outsourcing AY E90 fleet (12 aircrafts) to FlyBe.

Comprende? :D

OK ;)

The points earning and lounge access are something I took as granted...if they take those away what's the point of the whole AY brand anymore...? Lounge only if you fly to/from certain location on certain metal...that would never ever work..

Well, it is just my fear speaking. :eek: I have no knowledge of such a plan, but I don't think it is unlikely. I know it seems like a brand-suicide, but it is one of the areas where you can reduce cost on this outsourcing strategy.
And it's really quite simple (in management terms anyway): After flights are transferred, remove all codeshare agreements but keep all pricing structures and aligned schedules. Baam - a lot of costs are gone. flybe certainly does not have any incentive to spend money on points that goes into AY+ , especially if ticket prices are to be kept low.

Sales and marketing still goes via AY and FlyBe also gets fixed min. compensation from AY...lounge access/tier points HAVE to stay or this will be the end of AY, that's how see it. FFs and business pax - good bye (if your speculation is true..)

Hope they keep through check in else tat will be a pain going from/to regional airport. Maybe sas will get its butt in gear and compete more too.

I am probably reading too much into it. So far they seem to have kept the AY-branded flights (AY37**) away from the AY8*** (the non-earning/no tier benefits routes) pretty well.

If the Flybe operated flights will be non-earning on OW partners, than it will be just that much faster for me to requalify for SK EBG on shorthauls...

Since it would mean that the Finnair brand would not be present in Sweden anymore (just about every flight is E90) I guess too that it would be exactly what SK needs...

Baibai Brussels too then, in the worst case. All the flights have transferred to E90's in the last months. I miss the times all BRU flights were A319. :'(

Since it would mean that the Finnair brand would not be present in Sweden anymore (just about every flight is E90) I guess too that it would be exactly what SK needs...

AY said passengers wouldn't notice much, the cabin crew uniforms being the main difference. Same livery, same service basically.

Come on people, I'd say it is more likely that AY will open a new route to the Moon than that they'd stop interlining luggage from BE wet leases and stop giving out points and lounge access for those flights.
Wet leasing is not a new thing, and it is hardly unknown to the SK group either, since people seam to bring it up as an alternative.

AY said passengers wouldn't notice much, the cabin crew uniforms being the main difference. Same livery, same service basically.

Come on people, I'd say it is more likely that AY will open a new route to the Moon than that they'd stop interlining luggage from BE wet leases and stop giving out points and lounge access for those flights.
Wet leasing is not a new thing, and it is hardly unknown to the SK group either, since people seam to bring it up as an alternative.

The key is if the routes will stay wet leased or not. If they will, I am cool. I have a hard time seeing how it will save any substantial amount of money, though. And that is why I think there is a "next step" further down the line.

One visit to the swedish flybe site is enough for me to found an opinion, right or wrong. Bad grammar and spelling make it look like it is operated by kids in a garage.

One visit to the swedish flybe site is enough for me to found an opinion, right or wrong. Bad grammar and spelling make it look like it is operated by kids in a garage.

Have to get noise cancelling headphones then before entering any of the FlyBe Nordic aircraft. The safety announcements are really aggravating. A Finn trying to pronounce Skånska as the Swedish announcement, Tankero-bad-English, and 120 grammar mistakes in the Finnish announcement.

What I really don't get is how AY will save a penny (or penni) with this outsourcing. The crew will stay on AY's payroll on today's terms, AY will take care of sales & marketing (no savings in back-office, either) and pay to Flybe to operate the aircraft. This payment will probably include operating costs (fuel, maintenance, etc - but these AY have today as well) + Flybe's profit.

LH did drew a much stricter line with Austrian - dumped all the OS personnel to Tyrolean with Tyrolean's employment terms.

:confused::confused:

AY said passengers wouldn't notice much, the cabin crew uniforms being the main difference. Same livery, same service basically.

Hmm may I disagree on the service. Think about this: AY HEL-LED on economy, you'll get a small portion of apple juice and that's the ONLY free/paid option. On a much shorter Flybe flight HEL-TLL, you can enjoy a bottle of (paid) sparkling wine.

I have asked many times on HEL-LED flight that why on earth can't I by a glass of wine if I wanted. The answer's been: flight's too short to even make coffee. I haven't told them that check out the Flybe's service..they can even serve, sell AND collect money from everyone on board on a flight shorter than 30 mins.

I think Flybe's a good think for us. But I feel the sympathy for my flying friends.

Baibai Brussels too then, in the worst case. All the flights have transferred to E90's in the last months. I miss the times all BRU flights were A319. :'(

AY811/812 and AY817/818 are still hardly ever operated with E90s (but with A319/320). There's still hope! ;)

Yeah, an E90 experience really makes you appreciate the comfy seats on the A319. :D

The key is if the routes will stay wet leased or not. If they will, I am cool. I have a hard time seeing how it will save any substantial amount of money, though. And that is why I think there is a "next step" further down the line.

One visit to the swedish flybe site is enough for me to found an opinion, right or wrong. Bad grammar and spelling make it look like it is operated by kids in a garage.
AY's core business is connecting pax to/from Asia. Having another airline fly point-to-point flights to HEL with no luggage interlining and no AY-plus benefits would not be a partner but more of a competitor to AY, and they wouldn't go through the trouble to create more competitors to themselves, not to mention help them get started.
If they just wanted to get rid of the to/from HEL business they'd simply stop flying, and wouldn't worry about finding a partner to take their place.

There is no need to speculate whether or not things such as luggage interlining will go away, as there is no chance of that happening. Such speculation would be the same as wondering if KF will stop interlining with SK on their feeder routes to ARN, OSL and CPH.

Terminating interlining agreements is of course a deadly blow to the asian strategy. So no, I don't think that is likely at all.
But for the AY+ benefits I am not so sure. It is not unheard of, in fact it is already reality on some flybe operated routes, like NRK-HEL.
Tickets are sold by AY, flight number is AY, my luggage is checked in to final asian destination and the price is like a true J-class. But it books into Y on flybe, and earns 1000p award points, zero tierpoints. (Compare to true J-class that would have earned 3000 award and 3000 tierpoints.)


I cannot see how they can lower costs substatially by just transferring planes to another company, and that is why I think they also will "enhance" the service concept at some point. flybe is not part of the finnair brand, and they will be able to do some real "enhancements" without hurting the brand.


Or to qoute the recent AY finacial report (my boldings):
The Flybe collaboration has gotten off to a good start, but there are certain risks related to achieving the targeted strategic goals. The company’s medium-term goal is to become the market leader in regional aviation in the Nordic countries and Baltic States. Price competition in regional aviation is aggressive and there are alternative forms of travel available. The company must be cost competitive and reach potential customers in order to achieve its strategic objectives. Majority owner Flybe is responsible for the management and development of the company’s operations.

Terminating interlining agreements is of course a deadly blow to the asian strategy. So no, I don't think that is likely at all.
But for the AY+ benefits I am not so sure. It is not unheard of, in fact it is already reality on some flybe operated routes, like NRK-HEL.
Tickets are sold by AY, flight number is AY, my luggage is checked in to final asian destination and the price is like a true J-class. But it books into Y on flybe, and earns 1000p award points, zero tierpoints. (Compare to true J-class that would have earned 3000 award and 3000 tierpoints.)

If you fly in Y you'll get Y points, even if you connect to a J flight. That's the same whether you fly a Finnair to/from a Finnair one class destination or a Flybe destination. And of course the price is J price, if you fly long haul in J. That would seriously be something if you'd get a discount economy priced ticket for Long Haul J just because you fly a short feeder in Y. Name one airline that sells that kind of tickets? If you look at full fare Y, my guess based on AYs ex-Sweden pricing is that you actually probably paid not much more than a full Y fare price, if not even less.
NRK was never operated by Finnair, so it also not so great of an example of "route downgrades". PAX from NRK still have the option of traveling to Stockholm and flying from there, if they feel that the world prior to NRK service was better. NRK is a destination that AY could not operate profitability with their service concept. That has nothing to do with destinations such as Stockholm, and I seriously can not find any reasons why AY would not want to cater for Swedish J pax ex-ARN.

I cannot see how they can lower costs substatially by just transferring planes to another company, and that is why I think they also will "enhance" the service concept at some point. flybe is not part of the finnair brand, and they will be able to do some real "enhancements" without hurting the brand.

So changing to a different operator can't help, but charging for coke will bring substantial savings? I'm not saying that further cuts in service would not be possible, but that's true both for BE flights and AY flights (and any other airline flights).
Still, saying that "just changing the operator can't help" is more or less the same as saying that the traditional service concept is just a bad product and should be eliminated (if nobody, i.e. any different operator can't make it work, then the concept itself is faulty).

Yes, NRK was like this already when op by finncom, and I wasn't pretending this was a downgrade. I mearly say that there are such offers already on the AY-flybe network. To me, that makes it a bit more likely that the routes that are to be transferred also could be turned into this concept.


Also, my point was not at all that I expect Y flight to credit like a J flight. However, I would expect a flight with 1 leg in Y to be cheaper that a flight with all legs in J, I would expect a AY ticket on a AY codeshare flight to earn tier points and I would expect to be able to visit a lounges on a AY J-ticket. None of these are true on the AY8xxx-flights.

Naturally, it is good for the NRK based person to have the choice of not having to go to STO first, and some will find that valuable despite the more expensive ticket and the Y-service. I have no problem with that.

But if it was more profitable to do it low cost from NRK, why would flybe not consider the same low cost offer from other scandinavian cities? I don't think AY WANTS to convert ex sweden to low cost, but if you hand over operations to a new partner and say "please make this cost significantly less" and at the same time force them to use the same planes, the same staff, the same schedules, the same destinations... What is left to do? Does flybe have a magic wand that makes an E90 fly twice the mpg?

Are you guys out of your mind...even speculating that AY wouldn't interline with their wetleased AY/FlyBe routes is simply plain stupid...sorry..

Also, AY made it very clear that after the transfer of planes and staff to flybe nordic, it is british flybe that is in charge of management and development.

AY has choosen to take minority role in the company that are to develop "Finnair's strategically important scandinavian network".

Are you guys out of your mind...even speculating that AY wouldn't interline with their wetleased AY/FlyBe routes is simply plain stupid...sorry..


Yes, it would be stupid, and I don't think anyone is saying that interlining would cease. I am however speculating that "op by flybe" will not just be about new uniforms.

Also, my point was not at all that I expect Y flight to credit like a J flight.

Hmm, flying SK/KF on a C ticket Asia-CPH-HEL, the CPH-HEL leg credited as C, even though KF has no C CoS. So it's quite possible.

Also, AY made it very clear that after the transfer of planes and staff to flybe nordic, it is british flybe that is in charge of management and development.

AY has choosen to take minority role in the company that are to develop "Finnair's strategically important scandinavian network".

If this is true (and why wouldn't it be) it means that AY gives a strategic market to develop to a third-party. Even more, gives the Scandinavian strategic market to a non-Scandinavian 3rd party to develop. In other words AY management feel they are incapable to develop a strategic market. The question is simple - why are they still managing AY?

Yes, NRK was like this already when op by finncom, and I wasn't pretending this was a downgrade. I mearly say that there are such offers already on the AY-flybe network. To me, that makes it a bit more likely that the routes that are to be transferred also could be turned into this concept.
Yes there are, but I'd say rather that that's a good example of how they have kept the AY wet leases and codeshared BE flight separate so far, which hardly indicates that a flight moving to "operated by BE" is bound to turn into a LCC service concept.

Also, my point was not at all that I expect Y flight to credit like a J flight. However, I would expect a flight with 1 leg in Y to be cheaper that a flight with all legs in J, I would expect a AY ticket on a AY codeshare flight to earn tier points and I would expect to be able to visit a lounges on a AY J-ticket. None of these are true on the AY8xxx-flights.I think quite many people from near NRK would prefer to rather fly from NRK than STO, even if it means spending the short feeder in Y. If so, it should be more expensive than flying from STO in J, why would AY charge less for a better product? Also there is quite a lot more competition from STO with similar offering (one connection, J service), which also drives the prices down.
Look at what the ex-HEL people are paying. It not about "being fair" or "costs + margin" but simply charging what they can based on what customers consider to be a better product.

Naturally, it is good for the NRK based person to have the choice of not having to go to STO first, and some will find that valuable despite the more expensive ticket and the Y-service. I have no problem with that.

But if it was more profitable to do it low cost from NRK, why would flybe not consider the same low cost offer from other scandinavian cities?
Again it's not about what AY or BE considers or wants but what the market considers and wants. If AY doesn't offer J, lounges and points for a major European destination, do you think they can bet they juicy biz flyers to fly with them? Why would a BRU/ARN/MAN/Whatever business traveller not go with BA or LH or LX or KL or whatever? With NRK the answer is easy, they don't want to travel to STO by land and the others don't fly ex-NRK.

Sure they'd like to do it low cost anywhere... heck they'd put you on the ferry to Helsinki if it was up to them, but the competition at ARN does not allow that. Therefore I don't see that happening there...

I don't think AY WANTS to convert ex sweden to low cost, but if you hand over operations to a new partner and say "please make this cost significantly less" and at the same time force them to use the same planes, the same staff, the same schedules, the same destinations... What is left to do? Does flybe have a magic wand that makes an E90 fly twice the mpg?
It's a wet lease, so it's not AY crews, otherwise it would be a dry lease, even if it the people in BE crews happen to be ex-AY crews. The terms of employement are significantly larger issue in costs than price of coke onboard. And going one class in not a cost cutting move anyway, it's about not offering a certain kind of product for a market in which there seems to be no demand for it. If Rolls Royce (the car deparment) decided it needs to cut costs, do you think it would mean they'd start making cheap subcompacts?
Besides, crew wages, costs of coke or E90 mpg is not Finnair headache anymore, its up to BE to manage those so that they make a profit with what Ay pays them.

As I said, I have no difficulty to see the NRK service's "raison-d'etre". Unfortunately, I made a price-comparison to a product that does not exists, and that may have hidden my original argument.

Anyway, my base assumption is that the flybe model (which is "a ruthlessly low cost model" (http://www.centreforaviation.com/analysis/finnairs-new-short-haul-model-has-to-be-ruthlessly-low-cost-says-ceo-vehvilainen-70917)) will spread to other AY routes once the transfer is complete. Hopefully I am wrong, and their intentions are to only use flybe concept on the new routes where the business situation is similar to NRK et.al.

In the linked article Vehviläinen is cited to say that the model is to first strip everything, then maybe add back a few perks to the transfer and high paying customers. I think that is a bit of confirmation that AY euro traffic is going LCC.

Are you guys out of your mind...even speculating that AY wouldn't interline with their wetleased AY/FlyBe routes is simply plain stupid...sorry..

Hi, I just flew bkk to rix with ay plus flybe. I had to check in 2 extra pieces of baggage but was unable to do this online as the second carrier was flybe. I had to therefore pay cash at check in which is 80 euro instead of 50 eu online. This is the second time this has happened.
Cheers

As I said, I have no difficulty to see the NRK service's "raison-d'etre". Unfortunately, I made a price-comparison to a product that does not exists, and that may have hidden my original argument.

Anyway, my base assumption is that the flybe model (which is "a ruthlessly low cost model" (http://www.centreforaviation.com/analysis/finnairs-new-short-haul-model-has-to-be-ruthlessly-low-cost-says-ceo-vehvilainen-70917)) will spread to other AY routes once the transfer is complete. Hopefully I am wrong, and their intentions are to only use flybe concept on the new routes where the business situation is similar to NRK et.al.

In the linked article Vehviläinen is cited to say that the model is to first strip everything, then maybe add back a few perks to the transfer and high paying customers. I think that is a bit of confirmation that AY euro traffic is going LCC.

I understand that they have somewhere confirmed that FlyBe routes will be one class LCC??

If this is the case, then why on earth would let's say a Chinese or Spanish J customer for example on PVG-MAD route choose AY in the future if this is the case is beyond my understanding...if AY SH goes LCC style with this FlyBe thing then they are basically shooting themselves in the leg here...killing the only business model where they have competetive advantage...business pax Europe<->Asia..

8-9hrs in proper J and then 4hrs in cattle bus with no service..? Which airline relying on transfer pax in the same magnitude as AY has made this type of business model work..?

As I said, I have no difficulty to see the NRK service's "raison-d'etre". Unfortunately, I made a price-comparison to a product that does not exists, and that may have hidden my original argument.

Anyway, my base assumption is that the flybe model (which is "a ruthlessly low cost model" (http://www.centreforaviation.com/analysis/finnairs-new-short-haul-model-has-to-be-ruthlessly-low-cost-says-ceo-vehvilainen-70917)) will spread to other AY routes once the transfer is complete. Hopefully I am wrong, and their intentions are to only use flybe concept on the new routes where the business situation is similar to NRK et.al.

In the linked article Vehviläinen is cited to say that the model is to first strip everything, then maybe add back a few perks to the transfer and high paying customers. I think that is a bit of confirmation that AY euro traffic is going LCC.
I don't Vehviläinen was refering to some chronological order when saying add "back", but rather the organisational model the airline is build on. His idea definately is not "we know this is a bad idea, and we know we have to add the benefits we take away back later because customers will flee, but we think that that we still for some weird reason need to take them first away so that we can add them back later and achieve my "add back" model".
Rather the point is that when building a new carrier with low costs (which is different than an LCC business model) it is easier to start from a low cost airline and add services necessary, than start from a traditional airline and try to take the extra fat out from there. Compare it to making a nice middle class car: it might be easier and yield better results if you take a nice and cost effective low end car and add stuff, than take the S-class Benz and try to make it cheaper. In other words also its easier to start from scratch with a new lower cost airline, than make all the necessary cost cuts within AY.

I'm still looking for the answer for the question: why would a business traveller choose Finnair from a major European hub (that has other options) if AY offered FR-style ride to HEL with no loungers, FF-benefits, food, drinks or miles/points, and only from HEL on the J class experience you expect? They are not so stupid at AY that they wouldn't realize the very basics of market economy.

let's say a Chinese or Spanish J customer for example on PVG-MAD route choose AY in the future if this is the case is beyond my understanding...if AY SH goes LCC style with this FlyBe thing

MAD is not E90 -route.

MAD is not E90 -route.

Details are details...if it makes you feel better you can substitute MAD with any other city you fancy...and for the future AY are looking for similar model for their A32x routes as well...

I don't Vehviläinen was refering to some chronological order when saying add "back", but rather the organisational model the airline is build on.
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Oh, yes I believe so too. He is saying "we have tried to strip down from the legacy model, and it is not enough. To end up with substantially lower costs, we must start with a structure that is low cost from the beginning"

It seems from the article that they are considering one-class flights but adding complementary food and blocked middle seat for the pax that are transferring from/to a LH-flight in J. The exact add-ons for a J-pax is probably not determined yet, but it seems clear that we should not expect J in euro traffic to be on par with J in LH.


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If this is the case, then why on earth would let's say a Chinese or Spanish J customer for example on PVG-MAD route choose AY in the future if this is the case is beyond my understanding...
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I'm still looking for the answer for the question: why would a business traveller choose Finnair from a major European hub (that has other options) if AY offered FR-style ride to HEL with no loungers, FF-benefits, food, drinks or miles/points, and only from HEL on the J class experience you expect? They are not so stupid at AY that they wouldn't realize the very basics of market economy.

Yes, this question is still very much unanswered. The article hints that AY will compete with prices, letting some of the lower costs "spill over" on the final price for the LH ticket.

There is also an idea for growth in feeder traffic, so maybe they believe that many new small airports will add new pax for the LH. Even NRK people would like to take a vacation in BKK now and then, I guess :o

It seems from the article that they are considering one-class flights but adding complementary food and blocked middle seat for the pax that are transferring from/to a LH-flight in J. The exact add-ons for a J-pax is probably not determined yet, but it seems clear that we should not expect J in euro traffic to be on par with J in LH.
Do you consider euro-J to be now on par with long haul J (I assume you meant that, not Lufthansa)? I wouldn't, and I don't think anybody else here would either. On any airline that is, not just AY.

Blocked middle and free meals and drinks (and the service associated to that)are already the only main differences on board... except that I don't think they even block on the E-jets. Well... those and the curtain, removing of which wouldn't lower the costs at all.

Do you consider euro-J to be now on par with long haul J (I assume you meant that, not Lufthansa)? I wouldn't, and I don't think anybody else here would either. On any airline that is, not just AY.

Blocked middle and free meals and drinks (and the service associated to that)are already the only main differences on board... except that I don't think they even block on the E-jets. Well... those and the curtain, removing of which wouldn't lower the costs at all.

Sloppy wording by me... No, they are not on par of course.
But there are some similarities in the service, things that probably won't fit into the "ruthlessly low cost", like they earn 200% and serve a decent hot meal onboard with any kind of beverage. There is also someone who is tending seperately to the J-"cabin", a lounge before getting on the plane, sometimes the luggage is off-loaded first, usually there is no fight over overhead space, checkin is smoother.

There are many details associated with J-travel (even if it is shorthaul and narrowbody) and most of them are not associated with LCC. It will be very interesting to see wich ones are added back, and which one (if any) will go.

A quick question now someone has mentioned Madrid. Why do Finnair flight between HEL-MAD & HEL-BCN have AY3??? flight numbers anyway?

I'm planing a trip from OZ to MAD/BCN via HKG & HEL, and hope these flights will credit towards my QFF membership.

Cheers

A quick question now someone has mentioned Madrid. Why do Finnair flight between HEL-MAD & HEL-BCN have AY3??? flight numbers anyway?

I'm planing a trip from OZ to MAD/BCN via HKG & HEL, and hope these flights will credit towards my QFF membership.

Cheers

I think this has got something to do with the night stops at outstations..same with the early dep from London..

And yes, those will credit to Qantas FFP.

For anyone flying mainly intra-Europe Y (as forced by the employer) the change of provider should not harm much. I like the FlyBe:s shopping cart, snacks, and beverages. Works also on domestic routes.

I doubt if someone is flying from BKK to RIX or TLL using AY ticket (one PNR) that there should be any troubles in checking in the luggage all the way. I have not found out if interlining exists on pure FlyBe flights with no AY flight number.

A funny thing happened to me at HEL once. I was flying to KUO on AY wet lease, went to platinum check in desk but the lovely lady almost refused to do the check in. I should have gone to FlyBe check in counter instead - do they exist I don´t know, everything is being substituted with self service.