TalkBoard Topics - Change "El Al Matmid" to "Airlines of Israel"

I think TalkBoard should change the name and subjects of discussion of the El Al Matmid Forum to "Airlines of Israel".

For a start (and this is true with every forum) only a small percentage of the threads actually discuss the FF program. Many more discuss seats, food, meetings at the King David Lounge, and various other aspects of flying El Al.

However, there really is no logical place to discuss Arkia, Israir, or Sun d'Or (the latter being an El Al subsidiary). These do not really have FF programs but those who fly El Al would find themselves (at times) better served by one of these three.

Agreed

Shouldn't it properly be Israel-based Airlines?

That would be consistent with Hawaii-based Airlines, India-based Airlines and Russia/CIS-based Airlines.

After all, we would not want to resurrect this (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1329916-organization-airline-programs.html) discussion.

Shouldn't it properly be Israel-based Airlines?

That would be consistent with Hawaii-based Airlines, India-based Airlines and Russia/CIS-based Airlines.

After all, we would not want to resurrect this (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1329916-organization-airline-programs.html) discussion.

I have absolutely no problem with calling it "Israel-based Airlines".

It's the CD, not TB, that can affect forum name changes as has been covered in several other name change requests including this one:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1314158-suggestion-amend-name-vs-forum.html

please send a note to the forum mods and me. If they are in agreement, I am in agreement and will make the change.

It's the CD, not TB, that can affect forum name changes as has been covered in several other name change requests including this one:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1314158-suggestion-amend-name-vs-forum.html

You've mentioned that 2x now & it's not totally accurate. TB has voted on forum name changes before & it does fall under TB mandate. Check the TV voting results/decision thread; there are a few in the last couple of years.

Having said that, some are minor enough that the Community Director can affect a change - if there isn't an issue re: the change, & therefore it's up in the air on whether it requires a full court press by TB to get it sorted.

Having said that, bringing it up in this forum gives FTers the opportunity to give their pros/cons on a name change & allows both TB & the Community Director the opportunity to peruse both in a single thread vs. multiple PMs.

While I'm responding to this in this thread, it's actually true of any forum name change & not meant to be singling out this request.

PS - regarding the link you mention above, you forgot this part. "This turned out to be more ambiguous than I anticipated. We (Jenbel, The_Banking_Scot) and I did settle on the proposed name change but apparently the proper name is the one that was in use."

Cheers.

I don't see this being proposal to just change a forum name, rather it is also to extend the current scope of the existing EL AL forum.

However, there really is no logical place to discuss Arkia, Israir, or Sun d'Or (the latter being an El Al subsidiary). These do not really have FF programs but those who fly El Al would find themselves (at times) better served by one of these three.I'm not clear on this. We have a forum called Other Middle East and Africa Frequent Flyer Programs. Is this not a logical home for Arkia, Israir et al?

I don't see this being proposal to just change a forum name, rather it is also to extend the current scope of the existing EL AL forum.

Yes, that is exactly right.



I'm not clear on this. We have a forum called Other Middle East and Africa Frequent Flyer Programs. Is this not a logical home for Arkia, Israir et al?

It would make much more sense to package the Israeli airlines together in one forum. Sun d'Or, for example, in addition to providing charter flights, also serves as a fictional way for El Al to provide flights on Friday nights and Saturdays.

Arkia offers package deals that El Al does not, and goes to destinations that El Al does not serve (as well as flies on the Sabbath). Israir is a low(er) cost competition for El Al.

All, however, are subject to the same security checks in both directions as LY, so if someone in the States wants to know what to face on Israir when going through Security, the El Al Forum regulars would be the ones who could fill him in.

If a non-Israeli is going to fly one of these airlines to Israel and wants to know about ground transportation to/from Ben Gurion Airport, he is more likely to received informed information on the El Al Forum than he would on the Middle East/Africa Forum.

Which airline -- El Al or one of the others -- best suits your needs? The answer will easiest to get on the El Al Forum.

Keep in mind that the entire country of Israel has a population smaller than that of many cities. This not only means that Israelis are pretty much familiar with what happens here but that unlike the US, which has many different airlines, Israel only has a handful and putting them together in a single forum would not overcrowd it.

Is there any progress on this (one way or the other)?

Is there any progress on this (one way or the other)?

I think a # of us have been traveling lately or on holiday.

I've got no problem w/ it being changed to Israel-based Airlines (to keep it consistent w/ the other ones that have been switched to XX-based), unless there's an outcry against making that change.

Cheers.

Agreed

Me, too. I agree as well. They will have change the title from El Al to Airlines Of Israel. This is very good idea.

No issues from me in changing the name

No issues from me in changing the name

You don't think rename the title Airlines of Israel? There is lots of airlines in Israel. Israir Airlines, Arkia Israel Airlines, Sun d'Or International Airlines and El Al Israel Airlines, too.

You can find the list which the Airlines of Israel is on wipka page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airlines_of_Israel

I think that the current situartion is fine. Don't see the need for a change. If there must be a change, I would suggest it to be to "EL AL Matmid and other Israel-based airlines". Otherwise I think it will be not be obvious enough.

No issues from me in changing the nameYou don't think rename the title Airlines of Israel? There is lots of airlines in Israel. Israir Airlines, Arkia Israel Airlines, Sun d'Or International Airlines and El Al Israel Airlines, too.

You can find the list which the Airlines of Israel is on wipka page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airlines_of_IsraelNo, I am in favor of changing the name (and my bad for a poor post :))

I think that the current situartion is fine. Don't see the need for a change. If there must be a change, I would suggest it to be to "EL AL Matmid and other Israel-based airlines". Otherwise I think it will be not be obvious enough.

I have no particular preference for what form the name takes but I don't agree that "the current situation is fine".

Even as a veteran FTer living in Israel, I wouldn't know what the correct forum would be for me to discuss a problem I had on Arkia, ask a question about Sun D'Or, or report what the best seat would be on an Israir flight.

If I don't know, I can guarantee you that a newbie on the site doesn't.

I have no particular preference for what form the name takes but I don't agree that "the current situation is fine".

Even as a veteran FTer living in Israel, I wouldn't know what the correct forum would be for me to discuss a problem I had on Arkia, ask a question about Sun D'Or, or report what the best seat would be on an Israir flight.

If I don't know, I can guarantee you that a newbie on the site doesn't.

The appropriate forum is Other Middle East and Africa Frequent Flyer Programs (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other-middle-east-africa-frequent-flyer-programs-471/) Any newbie would look down the list of fora and see that clearly. Sometimes the fact that we have so much experience makes us overlook the obvious.

The appropriate forum is Other Middle East and Africa Frequent Flyer Programs (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other-middle-east-africa-frequent-flyer-programs-471/) Any newbie would look down the list of fora and see that clearly. Sometimes the fact that we have so much experience makes us overlook the obvious.

Why would that be the appropriate forum? Sun Dor is part and parcel of El Al -- it even uses the same personnel.

Arkia? Those who own El Al today used to own Arkia.

El Al, Arkia, Sun Dor, and Israir all use the same security people outside of Israel.

It would seem to me that it is a lot more sensible to keep them all in the same forum.

Why would that be the appropriate forum? Sun Dor is part and parcel of El Al -- it even uses the same personnel.

Arkia? Those who own El Al today used to own Arkia.

El Al, Arkia, Sun Dor, and Israir all use the same security people outside of Israel.

It would seem to me that it is a lot more sensible to keep them all in the same forum.

Because they are "other middle east" airlines. I believe you can even see the rest of the Middle East from your window my friend.

Sun D'Or is part if EL AL like American Eagle is part of EL AL so I can see this argument. But we don't need to change the name for this. Perhaps the description.

Who cares who used to own Arkia? What does tha have to do with the price of hummus at Abu Hassan? No relavence whatsoever. A newbie would have no idea about this obscure tie anyway.

Who cares that thy use he same security. Many airlines use the same caterers in London do their KSML meals. Should we move them all into the same forum?

Really, there doesn't seem to be a problem with the current situation. If there is, please point it out with examples.

Because they are "other middle east" airlines. I believe you can even see the rest of the Middle East from your window my friend.




Who cares who used to own Arkia? What does tha have to do with the price of hummus at Abu Hassan? No relavence whatsoever. A newbie would have no idea about this obscure tie anyway.

The purchase of El Al by the owners of Arkia (who had to divest themselves of the latter as a result) gave the two airlines very similar management philosophies -- meaning that there still are many similarities which impact passengers.



Who cares that thy use he same security. Many airlines use the same caterers in London do their KSML meals. Should we move them all into the same forum?

There is a very big difference between the two. As you say, many airlines use the same caterers but only Israeli airlines use the same security people. This means that what you can expect from one of these airlines is exactly what you can expect from the others.

Fly Delta, Continental, or US Airways from the States to TLV and you will not have the same security interviews that you will on any Israeli airline -- even if those American companies serve the same kosher food. Okay, as Israelis we know what to expect, but that is not true of first time visitors -- and the people who can best fill them in are the posters on the El Al Forum.



Really, there doesn't seem to be a problem with the current situation. If there is, please point it out with examples.

"I am flying Israir to Israel and arriving on Saturday morning. Will there be buses to my hotel?" -- El Al posters will be the ones best able to answer this.

I am going to Rhodes for four days on an Arkia flight. Where can I park my car at the airport and how much will it cost? -- again, the El Al regulars will be able to provide the answer (as they did for me a few weeks ago).

"Can I get El Al Matmid points by flying Sun D'Or"? -- Matmid flyers might well provide the answer, and they tend to post more on the LY Forum than they do the Middle East Forum.

"I am flying to France on an Israeli airline. Can I buy a bottle of Galil Mountain wine outside of the airport and take it with me on the plane?"* -- the answer will be the same for any Israeli airline, but not on most foreign ones. The El Al posters will be the most knowledgable about it.

*Full disclosure: This was a freebie plug. Galil Mountain wine is produced by Kibbutz Yiron, where I am a member.

It would seem to me that it is a lot more sensible to keep them all in the same forum.

Yes, you're absolutely right. They don't have to moved the appropriate forum. The thread should be in El Al Israel Airlines forum. It's right choice for everyone. I meant do not moved a different forum. The thread should be belonged in El Al forum.

"I am flying Israir to Israel and arriving on Saturday morning. Will there be buses to my hotel?" -- El Al posters will be the ones best able to answer this.

I am going to Rhodes for four days on an Arkia flight. Where can I park my car at the airport and how much will it cost? -- again, the El Al regulars will be able to provide the answer (as they did for me a few weeks ago).

"Can I get El Al Matmid points by flying Sun D'Or"? -- Matmid flyers might well provide the answer, and they tend to post more on the LY Forum than they do the Middle East Forum.

"I am flying to France on an Israeli airline. Can I buy a bottle of Galil Mountain wine outside of the airport and take it with me on the plane?"* -- the answer will be the same for any Israeli airline, but not on most foreign ones. The El Al posters will be the most knowledgable about it.

*Full disclosure: This was a freebie plug. Galil Mountain wine is produced by Kibbutz Yiron, where I am a member.

1, 2 and 4 belong in Destinations -> Middle East Travel.

3 belongs in EL AL.

1, 2 and 4 belong in Destinations -> Middle East Travel.

3 belongs in EL AL.

Technically, you are correct. However they only "belong" there because TB has not included these airlines in the El Al Forum.

As a moderator, you have realized that such threads often make more sense to be in the El Al Forum, even when they don't discuss LY.

In fact, when I started a thread there about long term parking at TLV, even though I was flying Czech Air, you had no problem in letting it stay there. (I am not criticizing you for that -- in fact, I am applauding you. You realized that it was the best place for me to get the needed information.)

What I am suggesting is that TB recognize reality and say that anything dealing with Israel-based airlines (or, for that matter, TLV) be in the El Al Forum. That is where the correct answers will be posted quickly.

(Call me naive, but I tend to believe that LY posters are more familiar with Israel than those who live in Damascus or Mecca and can not come to Israel even if they want to.)

1, 2 and 4 belong in Destinations -> Middle East Travel.

Exactly.

Otherwise, it's like having threads about St. George, Utah, in the Other North American forum because Skywest is headquartered in St. George.

Having threads where folks, and particularly newbies, can reasonably expect to find them makes FT so much more logical and welcoming.

As to the topic at hand, it would seem to make sense to have a more encompassing and helpful to have "Israel-based Airlines" forum.

As to the topic at hand, it would seem to make sense to have a more encompassing and helpful to have "Israel-based Airlines" forum.

Would we then also change the TG forum to Thailand-based airlines? AC to Canada-based airlines?

I could support this so long as it keeps the EL AL monicker. So "EL AL Matmid and other Israel-based airlines" Otherwise I think we are going backwards with regards to intuitiveness. I go looking for an airline withint the Miles and Points section. I don't go looking for a country and then the airline.

It is my understanding that El Al has a total of 40 airplanes. Arkia has 8, Israir 7 and Sun D'Or 3.

Together, they have one hub -- TLV.

SkyWest has 294 aircraft and 9 hubs.

There is no possible way to equate SkyWest with all of the Israel-based airlines together, much less El Al by itself.

The Israeli-based airlines, together, equate to one small airline in many countries. It simply makes good sense to put all information about the Israel-based airlines, and their one hub airport, into a single forum.

Further information about travel in Israel (the Galilee, Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, the Dead Sea, etc) can go in the Middle East Destinations Forum. Indeed, it would make little sense to combine finding a hotel in Tiberias with flying into/out of Israel.

I could support this so long as it keeps the EL AL monicker. So "EL AL Matmid and other Israel-based airlines" .

I would have no problem with that. I am not as interested in the exact name of the forum as I am in its content.

Is there currently a problem with regards to the way the content is being handled? As I said, we can just adjust the description of the forum.

Is there currently a problem with regards to the way the content is being handled? As I said, we can just adjust the description of the forum.

The problem is the lack of clarity, not in how you are moderating the forum. A name change (including the one you suggested) and a description change -- showing that all Israeli-based airlines and TLV itself are part of the forum's remit would satisfy me completely.

I am only pointing out the size here to demonstrate that combining all the Israel-based airlines in a single forum would not create a forum so large as to be unworkable.

Right now, there is an active thread there titled "Arkia orders 4 Airbus 320 neo (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/el-al-matmid/1364629-arkia-orders-4-airbus-320-neo.html)." There is a sticky thread discussing "New routes / extra frequencies to and from TLV - all airlines (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/el-al-matmid/1052147-new-routes-extra-frequencies-tlv-all-airlines.html)."

For all practical purposes, the El Al Matmid forum has morphed into a forum discussing all airlines' service to Israel.

Right now, there is an active thread there titled "Arkia orders 4 Airbus 320 neo (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/el-al-matmid/1364629-arkia-orders-4-airbus-320-neo.html)." There is a sticky thread discussing "New routes / extra frequencies to and from TLV - all airlines (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/el-al-matmid/1052147-new-routes-extra-frequencies-tlv-all-airlines.html)."

For all practical purposes, the El Al Matmid forum has morphed into a forum discussing all airlines' service to Israel.

Exactly! This is right one. All Airlines of Israel should have a appropriate forum. I repeat do not moved a different forum in AIrlines of Middle Eastern. There is no such thing. Every time that I see the thread is moved. Instead, it should have a right one in Airlines of Israel including Arkia Israel Airlines, Israir and etc. All Israeli airlines should belonged to El Al Forum.

Clearly, there are non-El Al posts and threads on the El Al forum (as there should be), so why not go with Yosithezet's suggestion of giving it the name ""EL AL Matmid and other Israel-based airlines" ?

Clearly, there are non-El Al posts and threads on the El Al forum (as there should be), so why not go with Yosithezet's suggestion of giving it the name ""EL AL Matmid and other Israel-based airlines" ?

I would be ok w/ this. I've never been to Israel so I'm relying on everyone else to come up w/ an appropriate name/expansion of description based on their experience.

Cheers.

I would be ok w/ this. I've never been to Israel so I'm relying on everyone else to come up w/ an appropriate name/expansion of description based on their experience.

Cheers.

The description is not posted anywhere so there is no need to waste effort on writing it. Just pass a motion changing the name to "EL AL Matmid and other Israel-based airlines" and that will make it clear that if someone has a question/idea about Arkia, Israir, Sun d'Or, or any new Israeli airline which might pop up tomorrow, this is the forum to post it.

I would be ok w/ this. I've never been to Israel so I'm relying on everyone else to come up w/ an appropriate name/expansion of description based on their experience.

Cheers.

I have. We went to Israel before. We enjoy the trip to Israel for 1 week vacation from work. We were there in Israel before since our last previously trip to TLV, Jerusalem, Haifa and Dead Sea, too. We have a wonderful experience. We have a nice tour. We saw lots of those things.

...

If there must be a change, I would suggest it to be to "EL AL Matmid and other Israel-based airlines". Otherwise I think it will be not be obvious enough.

I would support this.

The experience of flying into every other country covered by "Middle East Travel" is drastically different than flying to/through TLV. Whatever the name ends up being, this forum will centralize the Israel threads, questions, and FAQs.

I think that the current situartion is fine. Don't see the need for a change. If there must be a change, I would suggest it to be to "EL AL Matmid and other Israel-based airlines". Otherwise I think it will be not be obvious enough.

I totally agree with your proposal, (see this (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/el-al-matmid/1386214-israir-crew-sitting-1def.html#post19291399) thread too).

May I suggest that the name somehow includes all discussion about Israeli airports too, as this thread is very often used for basic airport information at TLV (there is even a sticky thread with the following name "New routes / extra frequencies to and from TLV - all airlines".

There seems to be enough support for this. Anybody going to get this rolling?

I also like this change..

I totally agree with your proposal, (see this (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/el-al-matmid/1386214-israir-crew-sitting-1def.html#post19291399) thread too).

May I suggest that the name somehow includes all discussion about Israeli airports too, as this thread is very often used for basic airport information at TLV (there is even a sticky thread with the following name "New routes / extra frequencies to and from TLV - all airlines".

There seems to be enough support for this. Anybody going to get this rolling?

There doesn't seem to be much support IMHO. A handful of people have expressed an opinion.

The issue you raise above is precisely why I think we should leave well enough alone. The EL AL Forum is part of the Miles & Points Forum. It is an area to discuss frequent flyer programs. It isn't generally a place to discuss general issues. However, in many fora we see general discussions which are quite specific to flying in/out of the major airport in that country. So in the TG forum we see threads about transport to/from the airport tolerated although the focus is on the TG ROP program. There is some overlap with the Thailand forum. But the forum is not called "Airlines of Thailand" or "General Issues Around Aviation In Thailand". It keeps the focus and keeps the logic of being a part of the Miles & Points section of FlyerTalk.

When I first became moderator of the EL AL Forum I wasn't paying much attention to the Middle East Forum or Other Middle Eastern Airlines. I figured that not many people from the EL AL Forum visited these fora. But after I started to poke my head in there I realized that people really do have a good shot of having their Israel-oriented questions answered. the EL AL Forum should and does focus mainly on EL AL and the Matmid program. I don't move many threads out of the forum into other fora. This bit of overlap seems reasonable. I don't see a reason to change the name to be less specific or more vague. It seems that the way things are going now is OK. So while the suggestion I made above is the lesser of two evils, I don't really see a reason why the name needs to be changed at all.

There doesn't seem to be much support IMHO. A handful of people have expressed an opinion.

The score is 12-2 for changing the name. (including 3 in the ELAL forum).

There isn't a larger number of regular posters in the ELAL forum.

Why don't we go for a vote (I agree to give a moderator a double vote;)).

Great idea.

Great idea.

Which makes the score 13-2.

I'm in favor of this proposal.

In fact, while TB is at it, I think changing TG's forum to Airlines of Thailand and combining OZ and KE's forums into Airlines of Koreas would be an excellent way to increase traffic and broaden the scope of those (less busy) forums.