India-based Airlines - Lufthansa visits 9W

Did anyone else catch this/have more information on it?
http://boardingarea.com/blogs/lufthansaflyer/2012/05/19/lufthansa-chief-visits-jet-airways-star-alliance-membership-in-future/

Interesting..

I hope it goes through.. Will at least make those JP Miles worth something.

The topic of the meeting was probably on 9W's plan to launch service to Germany this Winter Schedule. 9W has been granted bilateral rights already.

You mean Franz didn't call me while on his visit here?? I would have thought that he might, given all the tips I (unknowingly) gave him! (and which he implemented) :p

Fantastic - an alternative to LH's horrible business class...

Also, this means that there will be a closer relationship with LH, possibly bringing Jet into the alliance.

However, be ready for Jet's pricing to be just as extortionate, which would leave LH with full cabins in any case...

I was just told by an FA that Madrid was being considered for a hub, as was MXP...

However, these probably are just proposals/rumors? at this time.

FA rumors tend to have limited credibility.

If 9W were to align with oneworld, then moving the BRU operation to MAD/HEL would probably make sense. If 9W were to align with SkyTeam, then AMS/MXP are possibilities.

As for Franz, did you make sure to give him your card before getting off the flight?

You mean Franz didn't call me while on his visit here?? I would have thought that he might, given all the tips I (unknowingly) gave him! (and which he implemented) :p

Fantastic - an alternative to LH's horrible business class...

Also, this means that there will be a closer relationship with LH, possibly bringing Jet into the alliance.

However, be ready for Jet's pricing to be just as extortionate, which would leave LH with full cabins in any case...

I was just told by an FA that Madrid was being considered for a hub, as was MXP...

However, these probably are just proposals/rumors? at this time.

i think landscape has not changed for */LH since the quagmire of august last year, so it's still AI or nothing for them. If else, these visit will probably ruffle more feathers at GoI and LH needs desperately their support if they stand one chance to fend off increased competition from EK and TK...
As for the supposed Madrid hub...well IAG should be exerting also quite nice pressure to 9W, and their situation now is much better than LH.

As for Franz, did you make sure to give him your card before getting off the flight?Nope, I was too tired to bother and didn't think he was anyone special...

FA rumors tend to have limited credibility.

If 9W were to align with oneworld, then moving the BRU operation to MAD/HEL would probably make sense. If 9W were to align with SkyTeam, then AMS/MXP are possibilities.

As for Franz, did you make sure to give him your card before getting off the flight?

I think he found out that Bombay doesn't freeze. ;)

I think he found out that Bombay doesn't freeze. ;)Here we go again...

Be advised that BOM has been at single digits on the Celsius scale before: http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Mumbai-records-lowest-temperature-in-46-years/270724/

I don't know where you are from (well, I think I actually do now, as I recall), but I would think that this is pretty cold and some would consider "freezing" temperatures!

i think landscape has not changed for */LH since the quagmire of august last year, so it's still AI or nothing for them. If else, these visit will probably ruffle more feathers at GoI and LH needs desperately their support if they stand one chance to fend off increased competition from EK and TK...

I agree. FWIW, AI has also been moving very close to TK, with a pretty significant codeshare agreement recently signed and TK gearing up to add more destinations in India. Maybe AI is trying to get around LH into *A?

As for the supposed Madrid hub...well IAG should be exerting also quite nice pressure to 9W, and their situation now is much better than LH.

While I agree that IAG is a force to be reckoned with, calling its situation "much better than LH" is a stretch.

Here we go again...

Be advised that BOM has been at single digits on the Celsius scale before: http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Mumbai-records-lowest-temperature-in-46-years/270724/

I don't know where you are from (well, I think I actually do now, as I recall), but I would think that this is pretty cold and some would consider "freezing" temperatures!

This article just proved that Bombay hasn't gone below 0 in over 50 years...

LH and 9W had good ties from day 1, Goyal is however suspicious and refuses to tie the knot with anyone. Prock-Schauer did a good job in a critical phase of 9W growth and he was a 'gift' from the LH Group to help 9W. I seriously doubt LH will take (or be allowed to take) a stake in 9W nor won't they do anything to offend AI after the *A mess.

FWIW, a rumor on the street Volk Airlines (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/india-based-airlines/1326377-volks-there-s-new-airline-coming-up.html) is to be funded by Lufthansa. They have a German name, have signed a maintenance contract with LH Technik, their CEO went on a 15 minute speech about how important FDI is when I asked, etc.

If it ends up successfully launching, it would probably end up as the Indian *A partner providing domestic feed. The current 3 choices all have their warts, so I guess starting a new one might just be the best option.

From what I've seen of their management and business plan so far though, I think they're going to make the likes of AI/9W/IT look like major success stories.

I agree. FWIW, AI has also been moving very close to TK, with a pretty significant codeshare agreement recently signed and TK gearing up to add more destinations in India. Maybe AI is trying to get around LH into *A?


While I agree that IAG is a force to be reckoned with, calling its situation "much better than LH" is a stretch.

I am starting to believe that LH did not completely understood the consequences of allowing TK in *. Surely it would make IST a * hub well positioned to disturb DUB and EK, but they underestimated how much traffic TK took away from their german hubs: in the last months nearly all the german engineers i met around India and Far East came through TK, that also conveniently picks them directly in their country. I am not sure how long TK will be able to sustain such a breathless expansion and the competition of EK, but at the moment the situation is good for them, and for me they are one of the causes of the current difficult moment of LH.

I am starting to believe that LH did not completely understood the consequences of allowing TK in *.

Very nice point - hadn't thought about this before, but I doubt that much thought had been given to it before it all got too late...

Well, we've heard all about Jet's imminent flights to a host of cities and their certain move of hub to a bunch of other cities so many times, what's to say this go-around will be any different.

Tel Aviv, Amsterdam, Rome, Manila, Saigon, Paris, Manchester, Dar es Salaam, Munich, Vladivostok and Porto Alegre were all imminent.

And the hub was moving to (take your pick).

Vladivostok

Might as well make that into a hub to service the 5x daily to pyongyang. :D

Might as well make that into a hub to service the 5x daily to pyongyang. :D

Jet like to defend themselves by claiming "we're better than Air Koryo" anyway, so that makes perfect sense.

A match made in hell! :D

Interesting..

I hope it goes through.. Will at least make those JP Miles worth something.

amen to that....

amen to that....

LH tends to be very gracious with availability. I can see TATL F/J on Saver F/J awards available in the UA MP inventory as little as a few days out!

Really hope it works out!

LH tends to be very gracious with availability. I can see TATL F/J on Saver F/J awards available in the UA MP inventory as little as a few days out!

Really hope it works out!

Lufthansa has the second largest passenger fleet
Ranks 4th in terms of passengers flown
Ranks 5th in terms of passenger miles flown.
96% of passenger miles flown are international (with Air France, it's 92%)
EK (100% of passenger miles flown are international) and LH rank first and second in terms of international passenger miles flown.
Do the math.

No wonder that LH has extra capacity that it can't sell. EK's backers with deep pockets provide it with subsidies. LH probably gets big subsidies, as all European airlines do, from their Govt, of the country with the largest and the best positioned economy in EU.

Lufthansa has the second largest passenger fleet
Ranks 4th in terms of passengers flown
Ranks 5th in terms of passenger miles flown.
96% of passenger miles flown are international (with Air France, it's 92%)
EK (100% of passenger miles flown are international) and LH rank first and second in terms of international passenger miles flown.
Do the math.

No wonder that LH has extra capacity that it can't sell. EK's backers with deep pockets provide it with subsidies. LH probably gets big subsidies, as all European airlines do, from their Govt, of the country with the largest and the best positioned economy in EU.

Again, this is exactly why I can't wait for something like this to work out. I just hope that 9W doesn't muddle around with the inter-agreement between M&M and JP to the point that LH gets sick and tired and reduces what they're bringing to the table.

amen to that....

Well, the JetPunishment points aren't entirely useless right now. One can make use of them on any of Jet's thousands of partners (and one does, gleefully!).

But yes, they are near worthless on Jet itself.

Well, the JetPunishment points aren't entirely useless right now. One can make use of them on any of Jet's thousands of partners (and one does, gleefully!).

But yes, they are near worthless on Jet itself.

Well, what're your thoughts on the redemption levels? Don't they seem a bit out of whack for partner awards? They quoted me 167.5k for a one way J award JFK-DXB...

Don't they seem a bit out of whack for partner awards? They quoted me 167.5k for a one way J award JFK-DXB...Precisely.

I would term it a bit whacked-out myself...

No wonder that LH has extra capacity that it can't sell. EK's backers with deep pockets provide it with subsidies. LH probably gets big subsidies, as all European airlines do, from their Govt, of the country with the largest and the best positioned economy in EU.

You have got to be kidding ... they got privatised in 1992 and after begging financial institutions for 4-5 years managed the turnaround.

FWIW, a rumor on the street Volk Airlines (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/india-based-airlines/1326377-volks-there-s-new-airline-coming-up.html) is to be funded by Lufthansa. They have a German name, have signed a maintenance contract with LH Technik, their CEO went on a 15 minute speech about how important FDI is when I asked, etc.


Now thats a real joke. LHT provides service to umpteen airlines.... 'Volk' is one term term that would offput any German investor... :p

You have got to be kidding ... they got privatised in 1992 and after begging financial institutions for 4-5 years managed the turnaround.
You have got to be kidding if you think LH is not subsidised by or would not receive subsidies from by the German Govt in any way regardless of its ownership status.
In any case that was only one of the factors, which does not invalidate other factors that leave LH with extra capacity.
Do you think privately owned corporations do not receive Govt subsidies? :rolleyes:

Well, what're your thoughts on the redemption levels? Don't they seem a bit out of whack for partner awards? They quoted me 167.5k for a one way J award JFK-DXB...

I haven't looked at all of Jet's partners (I couldn't even if wanted to, there's so many of them; Jet does get around!), but it's not all bad.

I've redeemed Jet points on Cathay and Delta and the partner redemption levels have about 20% higher, but the difference in cash component was so stark it was totally worth it.

This is from a few months ago, for BOM-HKG in Y:
** Using Jet points to fly Jet: 20,000 points plus Rs 8,000
** Using Jet points to fly Cathay: 25,000 points plus Rs 773

For the same route in J:
** Using Jet points to fly Jet: Not possible, but would have been 40,000 points plus Rs 11,000-ish
** Using Jet points to fly Cathay: 50,000 points plus Rs 893


Add to it a diminishing JP balance and the ability to fly a better airline and I have no complaints.

You have got to be kidding if you think LH is not subsidised by or would not receive subsidies from by the German Govt in any way regardless of it's ownership status.
In any case that was only one of the factors, which does not invalidate other factors that leave LH with extra capacity.
Do you think privately owned corporations do not receive Govt subsidies? :rolleyes:

You're claiming all privately owned companies in Europe get government subsidies?

Brussels would rather see an airline die than let a government prop up an airline in the best of times.

Well, the JetPunishment points aren't entirely useless right now. One can make use of them on any of Jet's thousands of partners (and one does, gleefully!).

But yes, they are near worthless on Jet itself.

that's exactly what i have been doing for the last couple of years....

Well, what're your thoughts on the redemption levels? Don't they seem a bit out of whack for partner awards? They quoted me 167.5k for a one way J award JFK-DXB...

i guess it all depends on the sectors....i recently redeemed pdx-sfo on united first for only 7.5k miles....economy was only 2.5k....

You're claiming all privately owned companies in Europe get government subsidies?

Brussels would rather see an airline die than let a government prop up an airline in the best of times.

German and French companies of a certain size or deemed "strategically important" have always been *unofficially* helped/propped/sustained by their home governments (and you can also look at the Alitalia saga to have a sample of what government help meant in Europe). In the past it was more overt, but now with "Brussels" looking over the shoulder it has to be more subtle, but is not usually a problem because Germany and France have a substantial stranglehold on EU bureaucracy and thus are able to direct it at their own whims. Lufthansa has been handed over a monopoly on the Eastern and Central European markets with minimal interference from antitrust authorities, no company in any other market was able to gobble Swiss, Belgian and Austrian competitors without raising suspicions. So when I hear Lufthansa asking German government to limit the flights to the country or raise ticket fares arbitrarily to protect their home turf from their main Gulf competitor, they are not going to get mine and many other sympathy altogether, and that is besides the pathetically overrated level of service they give in all their operations. I do not really understand the preference Indians have for Lufthansa, given far better options service and price-wise are available both locally and internationally: i guess clever marketing and spin have been used all along.
As for the possible link with 9W, my hope is that GoI forces AI instead on * throat at their own conditions and forbids explicitly any agreement with them, that would be fair retribution to the arrogant attitude Lufthansa showed all along.

... arrogant attitude Lufthansa showed all along.

Please do explain or send me to the right thread. I wasn't aware of this...

German and French companies of a certain size or deemed "strategically important" have always been *unofficially* helped/propped/sustained by their home governments (and you can also look at the Alitalia saga to have a sample of what government help meant in Europe). In the past it was more overt, but now with "Brussels" looking over the shoulder it has to be more subtle, but is not usually a problem because Germany and France have a substantial stranglehold on EU bureaucracy and thus are able to direct it at their own whims. Lufthansa has been handed over a monopoly on the Eastern and Central European markets with minimal interference from antitrust authorities, no company in any other market was able to gobble Swiss, Belgian and Austrian competitors without raising suspicions. So when I hear Lufthansa asking German government to limit the flights to the country or raise ticket fares arbitrarily to protect their home turf from their main Gulf competitor, they are not going to get mine and many other sympathy altogether, and that is besides the pathetically overrated level of service they give in all their operations. I do not really understand the preference Indians have for Lufthansa, given far better options service and price-wise are available both locally and internationally: i guess clever marketing and spin have been used all along.
As for the possible link with 9W, my hope is that GoI forces AI instead on * throat at their own conditions and forbids explicitly any agreement with them, that would be fair retribution to the arrogant attitude Lufthansa showed all along.
Well said ^

You're claiming all privately owned companies in Europe get government subsidies?

Brussels would rather see an airline die than let a government prop up an airline in the best of times.
Where did I say that?

CXBA gave a brief description of some avenues for channeling subsidies. Local subsidies for airport construction, not unique to EU, is another.
I too don't understand the soft corner that Indians on this Forum have for Lufthansa. Although I have not flown LH in quite a long time, when I did, its service was substantually sub-par.
Perhaps liberal award inventory is one reason, which is a good reason. But armed with status, multiple awards can be found on any alliance with diligence. I have booked four awards at a time in my alliance a number of times.
Overwhelming Indian preference for *A is understandable too among those based in India, or frequent travellers to or from India, as *A has cornered an impressive list of airlines seeving India. But if India is not your primary destination, or if you are a longstanding top tier elite, *A offers no advantage.
With a large govt backed airline like Lifthansa, only a govt backed Indian airline can stand up to a bully that Lufthansa is. Jet Airways will be under intense pressure from Lufthansa to accede to the latter's interests. *A membership of Jet, looked at as a trophy by a large number of Indians here. and Jet will become a millstone around Jet's neck.
In the interest of Indian aviation, AI is the best fit for *A.

one of the consequences of a monopoly, de facto or gained, is at some point there is no incentive to compete anymore. In Lufthansa's case, they had obtained most of Europe's market with ease so they needed not to worry about getting passengers, but how to maximize profits. So here we have the extortionate prices, the dilution of FF perks and the general downgrade of the service to the minimum, both in ground and on air. This situation has last until the current crisis when LCCs in continental Europe and the Gulf carriers, both with comparable services than LH but significantly lower prices have started to erase those advantages. So far Lufthansa reaction has been somewhat erratical, on one side they leaned heavily on their government for support, on the other they both tried to restructure their operation and as well turning to * for support, first inducing TK as a counter to the Gulf carriers, then trying to get an advantage in the big developing markets (with mixed results, as in Latin America they are going to lose TAM to OW, while in China they cannot afford to bully Air China). The only market when they still have an advantage is the Indian one, but if they cannot secure either a good alliance feed or extend their current destinations they are destined to lose ground, furthermore by allowing TK in the alliance they involuntarily i think created a new competitor that does not rely on FRA and MUC feeds to thrive, but even steals from these. I said in the past that for 9W the advantages are to be in either OW or ST where due to current conditions they may be deciding their own development, while in * they will be nothing more than feeders for the alliance main partners. I am sure Goyal is aware of this, and that was probably one of the motives why the German CEO of 9W left, usually this kind of appointment leads the way to LH "mentoring" within the alliance and the successive induction, so perhaps this is the "gift" that Oliver2002 referred in a past reply. Anyway, the main point of my last reply remains as always: the smoke of last year past failure with AI is still lingering on and LH at the moment needs more India than India needs them.

LH used their coverage of the indian market to fill the back of the bus on the daily TATL services to 17 North American destinations. They had the best coverage of the subcontinent for the European carriers and massive india-us traffic.

Now EK & co are covering every little Indian airport with daily flights and expanding their US network besides the massive European coverage. So LH is loosing yield and slowly withdrawing. CCU and HYD got the axe and MAA is probably next, with the aircraft going to new chinese destinations. ST and OW never really had a good coverage of India from Europe.

Coming back to the *A topic (probably a rehash, apologies): the alliances need feed from the secondary cities to fill their widebody services from the metros. LH already has interline agreements with IT/9W(S2)/AI(IC) in place to sell tickets from towns like Nagpur using the indian carrier to bring the passengers to the gateway, even on the actual indian flight number and not codeshares. Getting one of the carriers to join would probably deepen the co-operation, but the ties are already there.

Prock-Schauer helped 9W set up a revenue and marketing setup that made it possible for 9W to even face or partly survive the onslaught of the LCCs and others a few years later.

So LH is loosing yield and slowly withdrawing. CCU and HYD got the axe and MAA is probably next, with the aircraft going to new chinese destinations.

pardon me, which new chinese destinations? AFAIK instead they axed Guangzhou and a couple others, with Nanjing next for evaluation (going by memory really, you sure will correct me on that)

the alliances need feed from the secondary cities to fill their widebody services from the metros. LH already has interline agreements with IT/9W(S2)/AI(IC) in place to sell tickets from towns like Nagpur using the indian carrier to bring the passengers to the gateway, even on the actual indian flight number and not codeshares. Getting one of the carriers to join would probably deepen the co-operation, but the ties are already there

so what was the reason to the 4-year courting of AI for induction in * if they got already what they wanted? Or maybe they tried to repeat the European monopoly game counting on the acquiescence of GoI?

Prock-Schauer helped 9W set up a revenue and marketing setup that made it possible for 9W to even face or partly survive the onslaught of the LCCs and others a few years later.

I doubt they leased such an individual bona-fide without expectations about future rewards. But as you said, Goyal is a quite suspicious individual, or maybe a cunning one, and Prock-Schauer and its backers were taken for a ride all along.

Then we can claim Jet receive state subsidies too.

All those bags of cash that Naresh sent to Prafull meant that vast sums of taxpayer funds went from the exchequer via Air India/Indian Airlines to Jet Airways.

Of course 9W receives all kinds of state support (in return for Naresh Goyal's ₹₹₹)

Of course 9W receives all kinds of state support (in return for Naresh Goyal's ₹₹₹)
Just for kicks, I'd appreciate if some of today's so-called journalists actually did their job and found out how a travel agent got the funds to start an airline

Coming back to the *A topic (probably a rehash, apologies): the alliances need feed from the secondary cities to fill their widebody services from the metros. LH already has interline agreements with IT/9W(S2)/AI(IC) in place to sell tickets from towns like Nagpur using the indian carrier to bring the passengers to the gateway, even on the actual indian flight number and not codeshares. Getting one of the carriers to join would probably deepen the co-operation, but the ties are already there.


If code share met all the goals, there would little need for an alliance, not just for LH but for any airline. Code-shares are just that. People often cite a code-share arrangement as proof or a strong indication of decision/intent to join an alliance. We know it's not. Alliance brings those passengers for which earning miles is important.

Then we can claim Jet receive state subsidies too.

All those bags of cash that Naresh sent to Prafull meant that vast sums of taxpayer funds went from the exchequer via Air India/Indian Airlines to Jet Airways.

You may if you want.
What is it you are trying to say? If Jet Airways is subsidised by GoI, then what?

If code share met all the goals, there would little need for an alliance, not just for LH but for any airline. Code-shares are just that. People often cite a code-share arrangement as proof or a strong indication of decision/intent to join an alliance. We know it's not. Alliance brings those passengers for which earning miles is important.

you can earn miles on codeshares as well. For instance, if you flew BOM-BRU (9w) - BRU-JFK (AA) and ticketed on AA stock, AA will give you EQM and RDM for both segments.

Back to the original discussion...

A few years ago LH already visited GF (that was even audited by LH for *A membership), UN (Transaero - Russia's 2nd largest carrier), QR (that even participated in M&M) and (most likely) a few more. For now a single visit means nothing to me...

Back to the original discussion...

A few years ago LH already visited GF (that was even audited by LH for *A membership), UN (Transaero - Russia's 2nd largest carrier), QR (that even participated in M&M) and (most likely) a few more. For now a single visit means nothing to me...

Very true that a visit means nothing. Even code-shares or participation means little as far as joining an alliance is concerned. The OP certainly did not say that it meant anything. People are simply speculating as to what might have transpired or what they wish to have transpired during the visit.