Japan - Power saving measures July 2 - Sept. 28 throughout Japan

I haven't found an English report yet, but this morning the government has decided that, on the premise that no nuclear reactors will be restarted, power saving measures will be in effect from July 2nd through September 28th. Though official guidance won't be provided until later today, it is expected that the most severe restrictions will be reserved for the area supported by Kansai Electric, with a power savings goal of 15%. The only area expected to be exempted from power saving measures is Okinawa.

Japanese story: http://www.asahi.com/politics/update/0518/TKY201205180001.html

I haven't found an English report yet, but this morning the government has decided that, on the premise that no nuclear reactors will be restarted, power saving measures will be in effect from July 2nd through September 28th. Though official guidance won't be provided until later today, it is expected that the most severe restrictions will be reserved for the area supported by Kansai Electric, with a power savings goal of 15%. The only area expected to be exempted from power saving measures is Okinawa.

Japanese story: http://www.asahi.com/politics/update/0518/TKY201205180001.html

Stupid.

1) They have plenty of idle generating capacity.
2) If they didn't like nuclear they could've bought mobile gas units. They had plenty of time.
3) The needed saving could be easily accomplished without turning up the thermostat.

I for one am going to use as much electricity as possible and hope for a black/brown out that will cause all the bureaucrats and politicians to get booted.

I still think it's brinksmanship to try and get people to support bringing the reactors back on line. The politicians have already made the decision; they just need to create justification for it.

I'm slightly hopeful that the Japanese won't fall for this again, but...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/18/japan-nuclear-cuts-idUST9E8F902K20120518

Seeing as how KEPCO isn't even sure whether they'll have a 15% supply gap or just a 5% supply gap, I place no faith in their estimates. Cynical as it is I'm inclined to agree with 5khours (but I won't be wasting electricity, if only to keep my bill down)...

Specific power savings targets announced:



15%: Kansai Electric
10%: Kyushu Electric
7%: Hokkaido, Shikoku Electric
5%: Chubu, Hokuriku, Chukoku Electric


No specific target is set for Tokyo or Tohoku Electric. Timeframe for power reduction measures is from 9am to 8pm weekdays, starting July 2nd (July 23rd in Hokkaido) until September 7th.

I imagine that all of these will be revised lower/eliminated over time like last year...

EDIT: It should be noted that, unlike last year, none of these targets will be mandated by law. So you are free to leave all the appliances eternally running in your place like 5khours if you so desire.

TEPCO's pricing structure provides a disincentive for saving. We get two bills; a separate one for the HVAC system. Here you pay nearly 6000 yen per month as a base monthly fee but the yen/kWh is "only" 13, which is half the marginal cost unit kWh cost above 300 kWh per month of the normal rate on the standard household circuit.

Hence the incentive is to crank up the AC in the summer since you have already paid the "initiation fee".

Although, I don't think most households have this central HVAC set-up in Japan. On the other hand, Mr. MJM lectured that I live in sub-standard housing in an earlier discussion about rents.

TEPCO's pricing structure provides a disincentive for saving. We get two bills; a separate one for the HVAC system. Here you pay nearly 6000 yen per month as a base monthly fee but the yen/kWh is "only" 13, which is half the marginal cost unit kWh cost above 300 kWh per month of the normal rate on the standard household circuit.

Hence the incentive is to crank up the AC in the summer since you have already paid the "initiation fee".

Although, I don't think most households have this central HVAC set-up in Japan. On the other hand, Mr. MJM lectured that I live in sub-standard housing in an earlier discussion about rents.

Mr. MJM? :)

Try, “mjm”.

Anyway, as to whether there is a central or package unit style air-conditioning set-up depends in large part on the existence of a chiller in the basement. If in fact chilled water can be pumped through a closed loop system from which air is blown by individual fan units, it is preferable from a landlord’s point of view. The problem is economies of scale. If the energy required to produce the chilled water is accounted for by the costs paid by tenants it is fine. If not, the landlord picks up a hefty tab.

Package units are not desirable for two reasons. One they are not as controllable centrally, and two they take up space and are ugly.

As most residential buildings do not have chillers and therefore as most lack central air, it is more likely one’s apartment will have package units. Some of the most expensive real estate in Tokyo however has central air due to the presence of chillers. I am not sure of the specifics of your residence but I would suspect that you are in fact paying for the generation of chilled water as part of your CAM charges. How much you use is immeasurable as the water travels in a closed loop. Typically therefore, electricity to move the fan is billed in lieu of billing for volume of water used.

Hence the statement that implies I suggested you live in a sub-standard place is inaccurate at best.

Best,

Mike <-- (an even better choice for using to refer to me :) )

I wonder how much Sharp has pleaded for some sort of very deep subsidy program to mass-produce and deploy solar on rooftops to offset, at the very least, daytime energy requirements without any sort of battery storage deployed.

Even into the waning hours of the evening you can squeeze out some electricity to power stuff.

The cost of entering is still high yes, but that's merely a market construction; expensive to produce is often due to lack of automation in certain areas.

Then again, this falls on the Japanese government to do something about it -- getting politicians to think about something other than re-election or money is getting increasingly harder, even something as simple as "where does much of the energy to create organic matter on Earth come from"?

"where does much of the energy to create organic matter on Earth come from"?

Same place the energy I use to power my car comes from.

Which also happens to be an organic compound :rolleyes:
It just so happens that it's far more energy dense than using the sun directly, however as it is a dwindling resource, it is astonishing to see organizations pursue suppose long-term planning on the scale of decades instead of centuries. You need to use the Sun to produce it, anyway.

At the very least, it is a viable means of obtaining energy directly *IF* enough is done to mass-produce it on a scale required to keep Japan's several grids flowing with energy. There are more ways to consume the Sun's wonderful rays, but it is hilarious that Japan Inc. can produce panels right now if it put it's head to it.

It would be a great day if the hard sciences were required to be remembered by anyone wishing to become a politician on the national level, in any country.

It would be a great day if the hard sciences were required to be remembered by anyone wishing to become a politician on the national level, in any country.

The hard sciences, if taken to their logical conclusion, tell us that there is no god, existence is meaningless, and that all is irrelevant vanity that ends in death and is ultimately forgotten.

You need people that are ignorant of that stuff to have the will to lead others.

Which also happens to be an organic compound :rolleyes:


Rather than being flippant I ought to have written that having an answer to your simple question doesn't produce an energy policy. The fact that you think it does is rather :rolleyes: The fact that you find it astonishing that organizations don't take a "centuries" view of planning is rather :o The fact that you think there's anything hilarious about Japan's situation is rather :mad:

jib, isn't it not just the role of these officials, but responsibility, to take account of what's happening out there and what they have at their disposal and craft policy out of not just research, but what other countries (Germany, the US to an extent in certain states), are doing?

I did do brief searches and it appears that Japan does intend to make solar a priority, however in light of shutting down major plants, it would have been nice if there was reporting on what they were planning on doing to offset the losses.

And I did mean hilarious in the sense that you can't believe the troubling environment that in some sense all you can do is laugh in sorrow and shake your head. There's plenty of that state-side too, for other reasons.

For the record, we live in a SFH and have an air-to-air heat pump set-up that you would find in the good old USA with a ducted system. The separate bill is for the HVAC compressor only. In the shoulder season (like April 15-May 15) you can turn it off and not pay the ~6000 yen basic fee, as long as it reads 0 kWh for the period. There is a separate breaker in a box outside next to the compressor. When I looked up the maker of the HVAC system it was listed under "commercial systems" on their website.

The blower for the HVAC is on the regular circuit (at 28 yen/kWh) and the stupid system does not have a setting where the thermostat shuts off the blower, so it will consume expensive power even if you set the thermostat at a higher temp.

When I have visited apartments (higher end ex-pat housing) around Tokyo I noticed that many (most) places have package units. I can only think of one that probably had the chiller system that Mike describes and I think this was an all-inclusive type of residence; large skyscraper.


Mr. MJM? :)

Try, “mjm”.

Anyway, as to whether there is a central or package unit style air-conditioning set-up depends in large part on the existence of a chiller in the basement. If in fact chilled water can be pumped through a closed loop system from which air is blown by individual fan units, it is preferable from a landlord’s point of view. The problem is economies of scale. If the energy required to produce the chilled water is accounted for by the costs paid by tenants it is fine. If not, the landlord picks up a hefty tab.

Package units are not desirable for two reasons. One they are not as controllable centrally, and two they take up space and are ugly.

As most residential buildings do not have chillers and therefore as most lack central air, it is more likely one’s apartment will have package units. Some of the most expensive real estate in Tokyo however has central air due to the presence of chillers. I am not sure of the specifics of your residence but I would suspect that you are in fact paying for the generation of chilled water as part of your CAM charges. How much you use is immeasurable as the water travels in a closed loop. Typically therefore, electricity to move the fan is billed in lieu of billing for volume of water used.

Hence the statement that implies I suggested you live in a sub-standard place is inaccurate at best.

Best,

Mike <-- (an even better choice for using to refer to me :) )

For the record, we live in a SFH and have an air-to-air heat pump set-up that you would find in the good old USA with a ducted system. The separate bill is for the HVAC compressor only. In the shoulder season (like April 15-May 15) you can turn it off and not pay the ~6000 yen basic fee, as long as it reads 0 kWh for the period. There is a separate breaker in a box outside next to the compressor. When I looked up the maker of the HVAC system it was listed under "commercial systems" on their website.

The blower for the HVAC is on the regular circuit (at 28 yen/kWh) and the stupid system does not have a setting where the thermostat shuts off the blower, so it will consume expensive power even if you set the thermostat at a higher temp.

When I have visited apartments (higher end ex-pat housing) around Tokyo I noticed that many (most) places have package units. I can only think of one that probably had the chiller system that Mike describes and I think this was an all-inclusive type of residence; large skyscraper.

Interesting set up. SFH's are not really comparables in terms of consumption on a larger scale though as they do not have common areas and CAM charges. Sort of apples and oranges really.

I have a passing familiarity with higher end housing and one portfolio of which I can think has package units in exactly two of its buildings. They are not the best system from a landlord point of view. As a tenant however I would far prefer package units. Not only for reduced power charges, but also no need for buy in to basic charge. Other than TEPCO's Kihonryokin that is.

Well, I have only been to five homes so my sampling is not that good. I didn't really pay close attention when I visited about 15-20 in the housing search end of 2010 and 80% of this was SFHs. Although my favorite house, a brand new never lived-in SFH in Yoyogi-Uehara with marble everything, roof-deck, elevator, etc. It definitely had package AC. (My s.o. liked another house better, which we selected.) And the rent was ~3000 yen per sqm per month!

But with a package set-up you are paying 24 yen per kWh (not 28, sorry) for marginal consumption above 300 kWh. So in our house we have one bill for Lighting C and one for Low Voltage Power service for the HVAC compressor only where it is 13 yen in the summer and 12 yen in the winter: http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/customer/guide/ratecalc-e.html

Well, I guess your response suggests that this set-up is rare, but the motivation to converse is ... backwards.

The basic rate ("demand rate") for Lighting C is a point of contention. The main breaker on the panel in the house is rated at 50A and we are billed for 100A (10 kVA) as the demand fee. I tried to speak to Tepco about and they sent Tweedledee and Tweedledum over one day to resolve this and another issue. Didn't get a straight answer; a lot of sucking air through teeth.

Well, I have only been to five homes so my sampling is not that good. I didn't really pay close attention when I visited about 15-20 in the housing search end of 2010 and 80% of this was SFHs. Although my favorite house, a brand new never lived-in SFH in Yoyogi-Uehara with marble everything, roof-deck, elevator, etc. It definitely had package AC. (My s.o. liked another house better, which we selected.) And the rent was ~3000 yen per sqm per month!

But with a package set-up you are paying 24 yen per kWh (not 28, sorry) for marginal consumption above 300 kWh. So in our house we have one bill for Lighting C and one for Low Voltage Power service for the HVAC compressor only where it is 13 yen in the summer and 12 yen in the winter: http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/customer/guide/ratecalc-e.html

An SFH for JPY3000/mth/sq.m. ? That is a steal, I am sure it was an easy decision to make.  Prices are double to triple that for better units in top tier neighborhoods. There are always exceptions but for the premium housing it is far more.

Package units only require one bill though and by tying one or more units to a larger more efficient fan you can save further. I have 4 and use a total of two fas for a 3BR apt. in Roppongi. Bills get as high as 20,000 in summer and that is really a peak. Winter comes in at about 16,000 and the rest of the year somewhere in between. Usage of not A/C stuff is high in this house of four. To have a separate central system in this country makes little to know sense due to lack of economies of scale and absolute lack of efficiency due to need the entire system to be on or off. Unit (i.e. room) based heating/cooling is the choice for efficiency not only for your own pocketbook, but also for the benefit of society as whole who have to share electricity supply.

Try LED lights at desktop level for some of your lighting to see if you can cut don on costs there. Lifestyle adjustments are necessary for many in the face of the electricity reductions requested, but as we all partake in life here we should all do our bit.

If you need assistance chatting with the TEPCO folks, let me know I will be happy to help.


Well, I guess your response suggests that this set-up is rare, but the motivation to converse is ... backwards.

The basic rate ("demand rate") for Lighting C is a point of contention. The main breaker on the panel in the house is rated at 50A and we are billed for 100A (10 kVA) as the demand fee. I tried to speak to Tepco about and they sent Tweedledee and Tweedledum over one day to resolve this and another issue. Didn't get a straight answer; a lot of sucking air through teeth.

Well, going back to that old thread, I 100% don't agree with you about rents from my own experience and contend that you are living back in 2007-8 from where rents have dropped as much as 40%. Like I said before, I know of a nice SFH in Akasaka that went from 1 million in rent in 2008 to less than 600k in 2011. Luxury highrises are different and you pay more per sq meter.

A friend of ours who lives in Akasaka on the top floor of a luxury highrise with a roof garden probably pays around 5000-5500 a month per SQM (I know the rent but not the exact sq meters) but everything is included. He even negotiated to get the place furnished. Cleaning once a week is included, cable TV, etc., etc. Maybe even electric. To be exact our rent is 3,300 yen per SQM per month.

I am not concerned about the electric bill. It's just annoying that they charge you for something when it is clearly incorrect. I think it only comes to about 1200 yen a month. The house has lots of recessed lighting, but changing to LED would only pay for itself over a decade, I would estimate.

Actually my neighbor showed me his combined bill (they also have the same central HVAC) in January and it was 80,000 yen. Their house is like a sauna in the winter. Imagine an American getting a utility bill of $1000 for a 2000 sq ft house!

Our system has a zonal set-up in that you can control a blend door where you can direct the % airflow to upstairs and downstairs and you can activate the upstairs or downstairs thermostat to control the HVAC. But the fact that it doesn't have the basic option of turning off the blower when the compressor is off is annoying. (The most basic HVAC in the US has this option.) And the blower is on the expensive household circuit.

Well, going back to that old thread, I 100% don't agree with you about rents from my own experience and contend that you are living back in 2007-8 from where rents have dropped as much as 40%. Like I said before, I know of a nice SFH in Akasaka that went from 1 million in rent in 2008 to less than 600k in 2011. Luxury highrises are different and you pay more per sq meter.

A friend of ours who lives in Akasaka on the top floor of a luxury highrise with a roof garden probably pays around 5000-5500 a month per SQM (I know the rent but not the exact sq meters) but everything is included. He even negotiated to get the place furnished. Cleaning once a week is included, cable TV, etc., etc. Maybe even electric. To be exact our rent is 3,300 yen per SQM per month.

I am not concerned about the electric bill. It's just annoying that they charge you for something when it is clearly incorrect. I think it only comes to about 1200 yen a month. The house has lots of recessed lighting, but changing to LED would only pay for itself over a decade, I would estimate.

Actually my neighbor showed me his combined bill (they also have the same central HVAC) in January and it was 80,000 yen. Their house is like a sauna in the winter. Imagine an American getting a utility bill of $1000 for a 2000 sq ft house!

Our system has a zonal set-up in that you can control a blend door where you can direct the % airflow to upstairs and downstairs and you can activate the upstairs or downstairs thermostat to control the HVAC. But the fact that it doesn't have the basic option of turning off the blower when the compressor is off is annoying. (The most basic HVAC in the US has this option.) And the blower is on the expensive household circuit.

Your experience is what it is and I do not doubt you believe what you say, but as I deal with this daily (my company is in the industry) I can assure you I am correct. There is no question about it.

Rents have dropped, it is an elastic market, but the numbers I stated are correct. :)

An apartment that is furnished, includes cleaning, and utilities I either referred to a hotel or a serviced apartment. That is not a comparable to the unfurnished apartment type about which I believe we are talking.

In short, good rents can be found in nearly every area, but they exceptions do not define the rule. When you find the deals it is doubly sweet as this is an expensive market in the central areas. Congratulations on your deal. It is a nice exception to the rule.

As far as TEPCO charging incorrectly, it can easily be addressed. They tend to work very reasonably when faced with facts. Are you presenting this to them in Japanese?

80,000 is very high. Triple a high bill in a luxury high rise in fact. Wow!

American central air is incredibly outdated, inefficient and expensive. I chuckle every time it is mentioned as a standard to which one might hope to compare what is available here. But then again space usage and design is also lagging Japan severely.

Again, if you do want help I would be happy to try.

Hailstorm, don't say I didn't tell you so ! I called this months ago....@:-)

Hailstorm, don't say I didn't tell you so ! I called this months ago....@:-)

I called them doing all of this posturing months ago, and ultimately backing down in the face of business pressure. That is still yet to come.

And even if it doesn't, as it stands now, none of the requests are legally binding, thus I expect businesses to ignore them with impunity this year.

Thanks for the offer again, but we have an agency that acts as go-between when there are language barriers. And this case is not worth pursuing anymore.

"American AC" being inefficient is a questionable statement, and I am talking about houses, although in the US a condo probably has the same set-up with individual compressor units and ducted AC. AC is inherently efficient because of Carnot's theorem and modern compressor units in the US are state of the art. Having ducted AC is more efficient and comfortable when you are cooling the entire house; you only save with split systems if you keep it off in many areas. You also don't have to worry about condensation dripping in living areas and whatnot. Maintenance is a lot easier than having to deal with multiple split systems.

And new American houses generally have multi-zone set ups with multiple compressors. Our house in Japan has a zonal system too but with only one compressor. I can shut off the airflow completely to the lower or upper part of the house. Ducted AC is certainly a much better option in the balance of things. I was just complaining that the system here does not shut off the blower with the thermostat and then the blower operates on the expensive household circuit. In that sense it is less efficient than an American set-up, and the most primitive thermostat controller in the US (like the old Honeywell mercury units that date to the 1960s or earlier) have the option to either keep the fan blowing or turn it off, i.e. "Auto". I estimate that we use 150 kWh more during heating and cooling season on the household circuit and this is at a cost of 30 US cents per kWh.

Heat pumps become inefficient (for heating) at low outdoor temperatures (hence the popularity of geo heat pumps in Sweden (especially) and Canada). But we did not use more than 800 kWh in the winter and I think it was unusually cold this year in Tokyo. Obviously our neighbor used a lot more but that derives from keeping the thermostat at 25C or whatever they do. As the temperature delta increase then the efficiency plummets.

Finally with regard to rents. I would imagine that furnished, full service luxury apartments are more expensive per SQM. In any case, this place in Akasaka is is NOT a furnished "hotel serviced apartment". Only because of the weak market our friend was able to negotiate furnishing as part of the deal! This allowed him a larger housing budget because he did not ship household goods. The unit is on the top floor of a large tower, huge balcony with Mt. Fuji view, etc.

The building offers weekly complimentary maid service; I have no idea if this common in Tokyo or if he negotiated this as well. I actually asked him about electric and it's not included. It would not surprise me if he negotiated the maid. Since we have a cap on the housing there is no incentive to reduce the price unless it is higher than the cap, but to negotiate fringe benefits. A predecessor stayed at a Marriott that fits the category that you mentioned, which is very different. And he started living in Tokyo when rents were much higher, ca. 2007 or 8.

In summary, what I know is anecdotal (and it goes beyond SFHs, which were my main focus) but it is contrary to what you say, but I guess there is no point beating a dead horse. The only places that come close to what you mentioned is something like the brand new La Tour Daikanyama. But I looked at listings that suggest that occupancy there is way below 50%.


Your experience is what it is and I do not doubt you believe what you say, but as I deal with this daily (my company is in the industry) I can assure you I am correct. There is no question about it.

Rents have dropped, it is an elastic market, but the numbers I stated are correct. :)

An apartment that is furnished, includes cleaning, and utilities I either referred to a hotel or a serviced apartment. That is not a comparable to the unfurnished apartment type about which I believe we are talking.

In short, good rents can be found in nearly every area, but they exceptions do not define the rule. When you find the deals it is doubly sweet as this is an expensive market in the central areas. Congratulations on your deal. It is a nice exception to the rule.

As far as TEPCO charging incorrectly, it can easily be addressed. They tend to work very reasonably when faced with facts. Are you presenting this to them in Japanese?

80,000 is very high. Triple a high bill in a luxury high rise in fact. Wow!

American central air is incredibly outdated, inefficient and expensive. I chuckle every time it is mentioned as a standard to which one might hope to compare what is available here. But then again space usage and design is also lagging Japan severely.

Again, if you do want help I would be happy to try.

Thanks for the offer again, but we have an agency that acts as go-between when there are language barriers. And this case is not worth pursuing anymore.

"American AC" being inefficient is a questionable statement, and I am talking about houses, although in the US a condo probably has the same set-up with individual compressor units and ducted AC. AC is inherently efficient because of Carnot's theorem and modern compressor units in the US are state of the art. Having ducted AC is more efficient and comfortable when you are cooling the entire house; you only save with split systems if you keep it off in many areas. You also don't have to worry about condensation dripping in living areas and whatnot. Maintenance is a lot easier than having to deal with multiple split systems.

And new American houses generally have multi-zone set ups with multiple compressors. Our house in Japan has a zonal system too but with only one compressor. I can shut off the airflow completely to the lower or upper part of the house. Ducted AC is certainly a much better option in the balance of things. I was just complaining that the system here does not shut off the blower with the thermostat and then the blower operates on the expensive household circuit. In that sense it is less efficient than an American set-up, and the most primitive thermostat controller in the US (like the old Honeywell mercury units that date to the 1960s or earlier) have the option to either keep the fan blowing or turn it off, i.e. "Auto". I estimate that we use 150 kWh more during heating and cooling season on the household circuit and this is at a cost of 30 US cents per kWh.

Heat pumps become inefficient (for heating) at low outdoor temperatures (hence the popularity of geo heat pumps in Sweden (especially) and Canada). But we did not use more than 800 kWh in the winter and I think it was unusually cold this year in Tokyo. Obviously our neighbor used a lot more but that derives from keeping the thermostat at 25C or whatever they do. As the temperature delta increase then the efficiency plummets.

Finally with regard to rents. I would imagine that furnished, full service luxury apartments are more expensive per SQM. In any case, this place in Akasaka is is NOT a furnished "hotel serviced apartment". Only because of the weak market our friend was able to negotiate furnishing as part of the deal! This allowed him a larger housing budget because he did not ship household goods. The unit is on the top floor of a large tower, huge balcony with Mt. Fuji view, etc.

The building offers weekly complimentary maid service; I have no idea if this common in Tokyo or if he negotiated this as well. I actually asked him about electric and it's not included. It would not surprise me if he negotiated the maid. Since we have a cap on the housing there is no incentive to reduce the price unless it is higher than the cap, but to negotiate fringe benefits. A predecessor stayed at a Marriott that fits the category that you mentioned, which is very different. And he started living in Tokyo when rents were much higher, ca. 2007 or 8.

In summary, what I know is anecdotal (and it goes beyond SFHs, which were my main focus) but it is contrary to what you say, but I guess there is no point beating a dead horse. The only places that come close to what you mentioned is something like the brand new La Tour Daikanyama. But I looked at listings that suggest that occupancy there is way below 50%.

A central air-con system is less efficient because it cools or warms, at an absolute minimum, an entire zone at a time. Unless the human being is large enough to occupy an entire zone, which will certainly contain more than one room, at one time, it is an inefficient system. From an energy usage standpoint anyway. And condensation from a package unit is not even remotely likely. Any system with an accumulation of moisture in it can leak, but the design of a package system allows for that to be drained off at the fan. It may be efficient if one defines efficiency as convenience, i.e. I will go in there in half an hour so why not cool it now?, but general conservation of power dictates you use what you need rather than what you want. Thus, a central air system is les efficient than package units. Whether you want that to be true or not, it is.

Again, congrats on the find in Akasaka, that is a sweet deal. Not at all normal, nor market defining, but nevertheless sweet. Weekly maid service is typically not offered at no cost, but when available, I bet is nice to have.

The Marriott that was a serviced apartment that your predecessor stayed at was in Atago Green Hills. The property is no longer under Marriott management though. And yes that is what I refer to when saying serviced apartment. That property actually ahs lower rents than some of the other more prestigious serviced apartment locations. 2008, btw, was when the market started to tank dramatically.

Yes, what you are saying is in part contrary to what I say, I agree.  But if the LaTour property in Daikanyama is the highest end property of which you are aware, in order to really debate the point, it is time for more research for you I think. Here is a data point for your research. There are several places in both Minato and Shibuya Wards that are in very high demand and therefore are more expensive, and have a higher standard of facilities and management. And, interestingly run in the high 90's in terms of occupancy percentage.

A central air-con system is less efficient because it cools or warms, at an absolute minimum, an entire zone at a time. Unless the human being is large enough to occupy an entire zone, which will certainly contain more than one room, at one time, it is an inefficient system. From an energy usage standpoint anyway. And condensation from a package unit is not even remotely likely. Any system with an accumulation of moisture in it can leak, but the design of a package system allows for that to be drained off at the fan. It may be efficient if one defines efficiency as convenience, i.e. I will go in there in half an hour so why not cool it now?, but general conservation of power dictates you use what you need rather than what you want. Thus, a central air system is les efficient than package units. Whether you want that to be true or not, it is.

MJM - Question for you. I have a constant debate with Mrs. 5k about heating and air conditioning. She believes that it's better to turn off heat and A/C when not in use. I think it's more efficient to adjust some when away but in general keep the apartment at a more constant temperature especially since she opens all the windows when she turns off the HVAC then cranks it up to 90 in winter or down to 60 to in the summer since it's so hot or cold whenever she gets back to the apartment.

Who's right?

MJM - Question for you. I have a constant debate with Mrs. 5k about heating and air conditioning. She believes that it's better to turn off heat and A/C when not in use. I think it's more efficient to adjust some when away but in general keep the apartment at a more constant temperature especially since she opens all the windows when she turns off the HVAC then cranks it up to 90 in winter or down to 60 to in the summer since it's so hot or cold whenever she gets back to the apartment.

Who's right?

Interesting question. In general though if your wife feels it best to circulate air by opening windows then the temperature fluctuation will necessarily be so wide that you would not want to run air-con during those times.

In general, the cooling or warming of only the rooms in which we will be is the most efficient way to do things, but then again with package units, most people do not have an air-conditioners in the kitchen or toilet where it may be very warm and where you might wish to be upon returning to the apartment.

For a compromise maybe use the timer to have it come on shortly before you will arrive home and then shut the windows and you will have a quickly cooled/warmed room.

For efficiency though, a stand alone fan to circulate air when temps are not outrageous will let you feel cooled but not require air-con to run. When it is fugly hot, if the windows/balcony door will be open part of the time, I would lean towards saying she is going to win this one. ;)

TEPCO's pricing structure provides a disincentive for saving. We get two bills; a separate one for the HVAC system. Here you pay nearly 6000 yen per month as a base monthly fee but the yen/kWh is "only" 13, which is half the marginal cost unit kWh cost above 300 kWh per month of the normal rate on the standard household circuit.

Hence the incentive is to crank up the AC in the summer since you have already paid the "initiation fee".

Well, it still costs marginally more to run the AC more rather than less. But still, I see your point. What is the rationale behind them offering such a dual tariff? I don't see why this would be a good thing either from TEPCO's point of view or for public policy reasons.

Interesting question. In general though if your wife feels it best to circulate air by opening windows then the temperature fluctuation will necessarily be so wide that you would not want to run air-con during those times.

In general, the cooling or warming of only the rooms in which we will be is the most efficient way to do things, but then again with package units, most people do not have an air-conditioners in the kitchen or toilet where it may be very warm and where you might wish to be upon returning to the apartment.

For a compromise maybe use the timer to have it come on shortly before you will arrive home and then shut the windows and you will have a quickly cooled/warmed room.

For efficiency though, a stand alone fan to circulate air when temps are not outrageous will let you feel cooled but not require air-con to run. When it is fugly hot, if the windows/balcony door will be open part of the time, I would lean towards saying she is going to win this one. ;)

We have an on/off for the entire system but can set individual room temperatures so we tend to turn down (up in the summer) temps for the rooms that are less used or unused. I tend to think though if you have few rooms that are very cold they are going to suck heat out of the rest of the house. As for airing the house, I've tried to convince here that she can completely change all the air in the house just by leaving the windows open for short time. She thinks that reheating or re-cooling the house only involves changing the air temp so she assumes it's requires an equal amount of energy for cooling whether she has left the windows open for 15 minutes or for 15 hours. She also doesn't understand that because of radiation effects she will feel warmer at the same air temp if the walls are at a higher temperature. As it is, she has the whole structure cooled to 45 degrees so she has to turn the heat up to 85 in order feel comfortable.

We have an on/off for the entire system but can set individual room temperatures so we tend to turn down (up in the summer) temps for the rooms that are less used or unused. I tend to think though if you have few rooms that are very cold they are going to suck heat out of the rest of the house. As for airing the house, I've tried to convince here that she can completely change all the air in the house just by leaving the windows open for short time. She thinks that reheating or re-cooling the house only involves changing the air temp so she assumes it's requires an equal amount of energy for cooling whether she has left the windows open for 15 minutes or for 15 hours. She also doesn't understand that because of radiation effects she will feel warmer at the same air temp if the walls are at a higher temperature. As it is, she has the whole structure cooled to 45 degrees so she has to turn the heat up to 85 in order feel comfortable.

Well you are absolutely right that the warm air will move towards the cold air, but that will require the room which are cooled to either have open doors to them or leaks around closed doors. If neither is the case the room will stay cool and warm air will not go in.

Can you discuss with her the possibility of opening windows to exchange air at night when the temperature is cooler anyway. (Make very sure you have good screens though, Japanese mosquitoes have a 145 IQ I think They find their way in through the smallest gaps) Also the lack of sun will allow you to keep curtains/blinds open which you would want to shut in the daytime due the radiation effects and warming of the room via the windows.

I often spend time in the Living Room with others and it is cooled while we are there. Before heading off to bed though or if one person will be in another part if the house, a portable fan (on a stand) is positioned to draw cooled air from that room and push it gently towards the room the solo person is in or the bedroom where I will sleep. In the case of heading off to sleep the air-con is turned off and I avail myself of the already cooled air which does not change temp at night quickly enough for me to not have drifted off to sleep by then.

There is also the small detail of no matter how right you may be she is your wife and as such gets to be right anyway sometimes. :)

I think after carefully perusing this thread, I am almost fully qualified to go into the air conditioning repair business!

Can you discuss with her the possibility of opening windows to exchange air at night when the temperature is cooler anyway. (Make very sure you have good screens though, Japanese mosquitoes have a 145 IQ I think They find their way in through the smallest gaps)

Before heading off to bed though or if one person will be in another part if the house, a portable fan (on a stand) is positioned to draw cooled air from that room and push it gently towards the room the solo person is in or the bedroom where I will sleep. In the case of heading off to sleep the air-con is turned off and I avail myself of the already cooled air which does not change temp at night quickly enough for me to not have drifted off to sleep by then.


I usually sleep outside at night in the summer because it's almost always cooler. The skeeters can't be that smart because they haven't found me yet and I'm no small target.

I usually sleep outside at night in the summer because it's almost always cooler. The skeeters can't be that smart because they haven't found me yet and I'm no small target.

Fantastic imagery!

Pray tell, where does one sleep outside at night in Tokyo other than along the banks of the river in blue plastic?

I usually sleep outside at night in the summer because it's almost always cooler. The skeeters can't be that smart because they haven't found me yet and I'm no small target.
I once walked with a rather corpulent British professor through The Meguro Nature Study Institute and Park. Said companion left the local ka population completely underwhelmed by his sizeable presence, as for myself, the skeeters went into pandemonium and mobbed me like Justin Bieber at Harajuku in the last week of March.

Japanese mozzies LOVE me and my experience reflects that of mjm (hard to hide from the beasts). Not all imports are sought out with the same consuming passion by the critters and size definitely does NOT matter.

Just to add, I could sleep outside (otousan's balcony is big enough and there's an accessible roof on the building) but there's no way I'm going to turn myself into an all night smorgasbord.

Fantastic imagery!

Pray tell, where does one sleep outside at night in Tokyo other than along the banks of the river in blue plastic?

Yoyogi Park?

Yoyogi Park?

Naw, if it's raining, there's the covered open area underground in front of the Tokyo Metropolitan government building. If the weather is good, it's Shinjuku Central park behind said building.

Naw, if it's raining, there's the covered open area underground in front of the Tokyo Metropolitan government building. If the weather is good, it's Shinjuku Central park behind said building.

Actually.... roof terrace.

MJM, you forgot your links. In my vicinity, La Tour Daikanyama is the most upscale and expensive "development" that I have come across. And my focus is on "houses". The units there turn up under "house" in searches. I think you are going to insult the readership here if you don't consider these 2 million yen a month, 300+ SQM units to be upscale. http://housingjapan.com/rental-apartments-tokyo/search/#!/search/building/La%20Tour%20Daikanyama/45604/
Again, going way back, the argument was that 6000 yen per SQM per month is "normal". I am saying that this is upper stratosphere of the market and "asking prices" only. I bet you that you could get a huge discount on La Tour Daikanyama. Even if you argue that there is an even higher niche stratosphere in Minato-ku then it's not going to support your argument.

Re AC, come on, having package systems is certainly not compatible with "luxury living". I prefer the ducted central AC system in our place. I assure that if you keep the entire house (or half) cooled and don't economize by having sauna rooms then a central system is more efficient in terms of cooling per unit volume. I also say half because I can adjust airflow to upstairs or downstairs. From a scientific efficiency point of view you want one large compressor that is matched to the cooling demand. Lots of small units is less efficient.

To cover the entire house comfortably then you need about ten split units. Who wants an un-ACed bathroom? Furthermore, if you have an open floor plan then it certainly is not beneficial to have a split system.

Another gripe about the central air system here in Japan is that you can't close the vents. In a typical American system then you can close off the vents in rooms you don't use frequently (some will still leak by) or where the airflow is relatively high (close to the blower).

Actually I turned off the HVAC at the breaker in the spring because you avoid the monthly ~6000 yen basic charge if you have zero usage. I planned to turn it on May 15th but have not done so yet. And if you do the math, you need to consume ~550 kWh to make break-even versus the household circuit. Then you break even with the lower tariff for the compressor. (13 yen vs. 24 yen per kWh).

On another note, I was doing weeding in the garden yesterday and I used the American "Deep Woods" stuff. They stay off where I spray so they go for your head instead but they won't surprise you there. But I definitely would not consider sleeping outdoors here.

p.s. The highest energy usage for the HVAC compressor during the past year was 1165 kWh for Jan-Feb. That also illustrates the higher efficiency of cooling with a heat pump system unless it is geo-based. The highest in the summer last year was 800 kWh.

p.p.s. You see a lot of homeless in Shibuya station near the 109 exit. I sometimes go running in the park (Yoyogi) at off hours in the winter and it's only me and the bums. I think Tokyo is probably a pretty good place to be homeless in terms of weather.

p.p.p.s. You are better off turning off the AC completely for energy saving unless you have nearly perfect insulation. The best thing for comfort and energy savings would be if you could turn it on remotely 20 min before coming home via a smartphone. Also, the thermostat setting is irrelevant until you hit the setpoint. The system cools at the same rate regardless.

The best thing for comfort and energy savings would be if you could turn it on remotely 20 min before coming home via a smartphone.


Check out NEST thermostats at www.nest.com. They're pretty cool, but unfortunately they won't work with a lot of HVAC wiring in Japan.

MJM, you forgot your links. In my vicinity, La Tour Daikanyama is the most upscale and expensive "development" that I have come across. And my focus is on "houses". The units there turn up under "house" in searches. I think you are going to insult the readership here if you don't consider these 2 million yen a month, 300+ SQM units to be upscale. http://housingjapan.com/rental-apartments-tokyo/search/#!/search/building/La%20Tour%20Daikanyama/45604/
Again, going way back, the argument was that 6000 yen per SQM per month is "normal". I am saying that this is upper stratosphere of the market and "asking prices" only. I bet you that you could get a huge discount on La Tour Daikanyama. Even if you argue that there is an even higher niche stratosphere in Minato-ku then it's not going to support your argument.

Re AC, come on, having package systems is certainly not compatible with "luxury living". I prefer the ducted central AC system in our place. I assure that if you keep the entire house (or half) cooled and don't economize by having sauna rooms then a central system is more efficient in terms of cooling per unit volume. I also say half because I can adjust airflow to upstairs or downstairs. From a scientific efficiency point of view you want one large compressor that is matched to the cooling demand. Lots of small units is less efficient.

To cover the entire house comfortably then you need about ten split units. Who wants an un-ACed bathroom? Furthermore, if you have an open floor plan then it certainly is not beneficial to have a split system.

Another gripe about the central air system here in Japan is that you can't close the vents. In a typical American system then you can close off the vents in rooms you don't use frequently (some will still leak by) or where the airflow is relatively high (close to the blower).

Actually I turned off the HVAC at the breaker in the spring because you avoid the monthly ~6000 yen basic charge if you have zero usage. I planned to turn it on May 15th but have not done so yet. And if you do the math, you need to consume ~550 kWh to make break-even versus the household circuit. Then you break even with the lower tariff for the compressor. (13 yen vs. 24 yen per kWh).

On another note, I was doing weeding in the garden yesterday and I used the American "Deep Woods" stuff. They stay off where I spray so they go for your head instead but they won't surprise you there. But I definitely would not consider sleeping outdoors here.

p.s. The highest energy usage for the HVAC compressor during the past year was 1165 kWh for Jan-Feb. That also illustrates the higher efficiency of cooling with a heat pump system unless it is geo-based. The highest in the summer last year was 800 kWh.

p.p.s. You see a lot of homeless in Shibuya station near the 109 exit. I sometimes go running in the park (Yoyogi) at off hours in the winter and it's only me and the bums. I think Tokyo is probably a pretty good place to be homeless in terms of weather.

p.p.p.s. You are better off turning off the AC completely for energy saving unless you have nearly perfect insulation. The best thing for comfort and energy savings would be if you could turn it on remotely 20 min before coming home via a smartphone. Also, the thermostat setting is irrelevant until you hit the setpoint. The system cools at the same rate regardless.

Actually I forgot nothing. 

I understand that the La Tour you reference is your benchmark, that is clear. It is not however the upper end of the market. It is good, there is no question abut it, but there is significant headroom in the market. 2mil. Yen for 300+ sq. . is a great price, but by no means expensive. That you believe 6000/sq.m. to be the “upper stratosphere of the market and "asking prices" only” is still amusing to me. It is like people in Dallas thinking they live in a major urban center of the US because the Metroplex is geographically large. There is much more to the market than you have referenced, Look at the areas of Moto Azabu, Minami Azabu, Shoto, and Roppongi for example. What you reference as upper stratosphere of the market is still 25% belo that being achieved for less than 300 sq.m. Some of the firms offering those units even run at 95%+ occupancy. And I bet you are right abut th discount at La Tour, in fact I know you are right. That still does not define the market though.

Package systems are not compatible with luxury living? Really? So a place like Motoazabu Hills is not luxury? ;-)

No matter how you try and spin it, cooling space where no one is will always be less efficient than cooling areas where people are. You appear to believe that convenience is somehow equal to efficiency. Not so I am afraid.

I particularly like the point about a split system being efficient for an open plan area. You definitely need to check into the air volume some of the units handle. Ample is a conservative estimate. I am currently sitting in a 220 Tsubo (727 sq.m.) office floor which is open plan and densely packed and which uses package units. Chosen specifically for efficiency. Scalable down to any size living room/dining room/etc. open area in a home.

And your grip about not being able to shut ducts is in fact with your system but not those of Japan. Many of our units have central systems and do allow room by room control. Oops. 

As for efficiency of a air-con unit in the winter, try a a sweater and comfy slippers. Be kind to the environment and be warm all at the same time.

On timers, well all of my units at home and here at the office have them. Both for central and package units.

Over to you…