Air France Frequence Plus - PHG's new job: make CDG Express happen

Air France's former CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon has been hired as a consultant by RATP, SNCF, RFF and Paris Airports to re-launch the CDG Express project.

At least no one will care if he gets free tickets for that route ;)

Article in French here: http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/services/transport-logistique/20120516trib000698839/nouveau-job-pour-l-ex-patron-d-air-france-relancer-le-serpent-de-mer-cdg-express.html

Some extra info for the people who have no clue what 'CDG express' might be (like me :p)

CDG Express is a planned project to connect Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport and Paris by rail. Proposed to alleviate the saturation of the RER B line, it would connect terminal 2 to the Gare de l'Est.
Works were supposed to begin in 2008, with a planned opening in 2012, but the project seems to be still in stand-by as of October 2010. The line is to be 32 km long.

Long live to RER B :D

With PHG onboard, we can expect :
- train manually operated, with high salary staff ;
- huge pricing ;
- several delay/disruptions.

;)

Excellent last two replies :D

What prevents CDG Express from being a great project is that either you terminate the trains in Gare de l'Est with passable connections to the rest of the network, or in Gare du Nord which would be the best option but where no capacity is available on the suburban platforms. It would not be totally impossible to build new platforms, but that would be underground in a very congested area (many metros and RER lines) and the price tag would be huge.

I'm afraid no CEO, however good he is, will be able to significantly alter this geographical reality.

Indeed, as discussed in another thread on this topic a few months ago, I personally think that CDG express is a rather silly idea, especially considering the type of fares it needs to sell for to pay for itself and the competition of the RER B which however ugly and dirty and crowded allows you to reach some of the 'best' connecting stations in Paris (Gare du Nord, Chatelet-Les Halles, St Michel, etc) in approximately 30 minutes for the fast trains for much much less than what the CDG E ticket will have to sell for.

Yep, and considering that the frequency for RER B from CDG is supposed to go up considerably and also a few minutes faster when all the work on the north section of the line is done, it makes CDG express even more unlikely to be successful. No way I'll use it with the destinations I usually have. (75008 or la Defense). iMHO a termination in Gare de l'Est is a joke with no fast and direct connections to the business heart, la Defense.
In other words. The only CDG express that would add value would go something like: CDG, Gare du Nord, La Defense. Or CDG-Gare du Nord, Chatelet and would have to do that really fast. (15 minutes to Gare du Nord)

15 minutes to Gare du Nord

I fully agree. Anything over 20mn would not justify the additional cost for using CDG Express over the RER.

I fully agree. Anything over 20mn would not justify the additional cost for using CDG Express over the RER.

+1. And also agree with Zembla that a CDG express heading towards La Defense (which I personally don't use) would have made more intuitive sense than Gare de l'Est.

+1. And also agree with Zembla that a CDG express heading towards La Defense (which I personally don't use) would have made more intuitive sense than Gare de l'Est.

Hm, just an ides, why not directly CDG-La Defense? Perhaps it's possible to run it largely above ground if directly from CDG and over to be upgraded SNCF tracks? From there they could slot it in on the existing tracks to Chatelet and Gare du Nord...although...the track used by RER A is with 2 minute interval in rush hour at the limit of it's capacity...

No wait even better, they can speed up the planned extension of RER E from St Lazare to La Defense (which is not at its limit) with new tunnels which are planned anyway and use that track from La Defense to Paris. Then it could Be CDG-La Defense-St Lazare, Magenta (Actually Gare du Nord) That would also be covering connections to metro 2,3,4,5,12,13 and 14, RER A, B, D and E. So yeah, why not?

Edit: And if they are going to dig that RER E tunnel anyway a few extra tracks at least to St Lazarre wouldn't quadruple the bill, would they? :)

Hm, just an ides, why not directly CDG-La Defense? Perhaps it's possible to run it largely above ground if directly from CDG and over to be upgraded SNCF tracks? From there they could slot it in on the existing tracks to Chatelet and Gare du Nord...although...the track used by RER A is with 2 minute interval in rush hour at the limit of it's capacity...

Because the amount of people interested in a CDG - La Défense route is significantly low compared to people wishing to go "downtown". Moreover, most of the people doing Business in La Défense is taking either a cab or a moto taxi.


To be honest, CDG Express is a dead end project.

Possible scenarios :
- CDG - Paris Gare de l'Est (most plausible scenario) :
* creation of a tunnel from Paris Gare de l'Est to roughly Le Bourget, which is very costly (approximately 300M EUR) ;
* use of the current tracks (1/2) dedicated to TER, Transilien K and non-stop RER B between Paris and Aulnay (heading to Mitry), from Le Bourget to around Mitry Claye ;
* connection from there to TGV track to reach CDG 2 RER / TGV station.
=> Very costly and inefficient as there will always be disruptions on the shared tracks with TER and Transilien K (RER B won't use those tracks anymore after RER B+ is done).
- CDG - Paris Gare du Nord : RER B+ will be done next year, all trains during rush hours will be stopping at each station from Paris to CDG or Mitry Claye. No more RER B trains can use the tracks 1/2 between Paris and Aulnay-sous-Bois. CDG-Paris is expected to take 35mins, which is 3mins more than current semi-direct trains. Direct trains are supposed to be kept during off-peak.

By the way, Paris Gare de l'Est can be "Magenta" (as used by RER E), which is quite not that bad. It's just between Gare du Nord and Gare de l'Est, which can be useful for connections. Yes it's not that good as it does not goes all the way across Paris like the RER B, but could be useful.

Ideal stuff would be a non stop train between CDG and a new undergound station such as below Republique, with a stop in Magenta. But given the amount of money to spend and how ridiculous both the STIF and the State want to give, such a project won't happen.

Ideal stuff would be a non stop train between CDG and a new undergound station such as below Republique, with a stop in Magenta.

Personally I'd say ideal stuff would be to give up this whole odd idea, improve the current RER B route which has a perfectly sensible route, invest in new, cleaner, faster, airport links with dedicated luggage racks which would have regular shuttle like times (e.g. 0, 15, 30, and 45 past each hour) which would only do CDG2, CDG1, Gare du Nord, Chatelet, St Michel, (maybe either Luxembourg or Port Royal), Denfert, Antony, which could not only work great but also link CDG and ORY in a fast and efficient way despite the very absurd idea that was to rely on Orlyval in the first place. People needing connections or stop in smaller stations could always connect or take the slower version but most would be catered for by this itinerary.

To me, any transport link which somehow needs the current offer to get worse to be competitive is not a good transport link.

Personally I'd say ideal stuff would be to give up this whole odd idea, improve the current RER B route which has a perfectly sensible route, invest in new, cleaner, faster, airport links with dedicated luggage racks which would have regular shuttle like times (e.g. 0, 15, 30, and 45 past each hour) which would only do CDG2, CDG1, Gare du Nord, Chatelet, St Michel, (maybe either Luxembourg or Port Royal), Denfert, Antony, which could not only work great but also link CDG and ORY in a fast and efficient way despite the very absurd idea that was to rely on Orlyval in the first place. People needing connections or stop in smaller stations could always connect or take the slower version but most would be catered for by this itinerary.

I doubt that this is feasible on a track that is already at the limit of its capacity. Grab an RER B in any direction at Chatelet during rush hours and you know what I mean (Every train packed to the brim, no room for extra trains, and delays are standard). It could work if you double the tracks. Which means digging a new bloody expensive tunnel under Paris which will never be paid back by a "handfull" of air travelers. In addition it would mean nocking down quite a few buildings and even more bridges (actually almost all of them except around Drancy and in the most northern section where new tracks are already laid to improve RER B). And what to do with the A86 running directly next to the line for quite a distance? Smash down all the industries and apartment blocks that are on the other side of the tracks?
It would be the logical choice if they had the space to do it or if RER B had a lot of capacity left, but I think your plan might have some practical and financial limitations.

When you think about it...they should have had a vision 20 years ago. I think it may be too late for something fast and efficient at acceptable costs.

I doubt that this is feasible on a track that is already at the limit of its capacity. Grab an RER B in any direction at Chatelet during rush hours and you know what I mean (Every train packed to the brim, no room for extra trains, and delays are standard). It could work if you double the tracks. Which means digging a new bloody expensive tunnel under Paris which will never be paid back by a "handfull" of air travelers. In addition it would mean nocking down quite a few buildings and even more bridges (actually almost all of them except around Drancy and in the most northern section where new tracks are already laid to improve RER B). And what to do with the A86 running directly next to the line for quite a distance? Smash down all the industries and apartment blocks that are on the other side of the tracks?
It would be the logical choice if they had the space to do it or if RER B had a lot of capacity left, but I think your plan might have some practical and financial limitations.

When you think about it...they should have had a vision 20 years ago. I think it may be too late for something fast and efficient at acceptable costs.

Ok, then: let's move Paris north of Survilliers/Creil and build a fast link to there.
See, that was easy: problem solved. :)

Ok, then: let's move Paris north of Survilliers/Creil and build a fast link to there.
See, that was easy: problem solved. :)

That's in project (see "Barreau de Gonnesse") :P

But regarding public transportation, here is the process in France :
- first there's a big plan with lots of crazy announces regarding a new automated metro, with the most recent technology available, which is both direct and omnibus at the same time (in order to make everyone happy). This is a railway train that need both tracks + tunnel creations, for a total costs of 1 bn EUR ;
- then after 5 years, it becomes a "tram train" project, still with high technology involved, shiny new design, excellent schedule, etc ;
- then 3 years after, it becomes a "TSCP" (Transport en Commun en Site Propre), which is a bus with a dedicated track ;
- then 3 years after, it becomes a standard bus with ...... schedule.

That's in project (see "Barreau de Gonnesse") :P

But regarding public transportation, here is the process in France :
- first there's a big plan with lots of crazy announces regarding a new automated metro, with the most recent technology available, which is both direct and omnibus at the same time (in order to make everyone happy). This is a railway train that need both tracks + tunnel creations, for a total costs of 1 bn EUR ;

LOL. I know exactly what you mean, but you are forgetting a few things. It will also solve the problems of RER A and the overcrowded metro lines, it will be the end of traffic jams, there will be seating for everyone, a restaurant and a bar, there will be a station every 50 meters so everyone along the line is covered and you can change without leaving the train and...it can do your laundry, too! To top it off it will be for free :D