Virgin America Elevate - Virgin America to Hawaii

I posted elsewhere on Friday morning (http://milepoint.com/forums/threads/teh-penalty-box.23581/page-2023#post-1378419) about a Virgin America job posting for an ETOPS program manager (https://www.virginamerica.apply2jobs.com/ProfExt/index.cfm?fuseaction=mExternal.showJob&RID=863&CurrentPage=1) which apparently was first posted sometime around March. Now it sounds like VX is in the process of actually getting ETOPS approval, based on a post on NYCAviation (http://nycaviation.com/forum/threads/43121-Virgin-America-doing-proving-runs-between-California-and-Hawaii) yesterday:

On the way to SFO, we heard the "Redwood" callsign (Virgin America) on one of the westbound tracks doing ETOPS proving runs to Hawaii with the FAA onboard. The Virgin crew said the cost of bringing the airplanes up to ETOPS standards and doing the proving runs was being underwritten by Airbus

They have to required to training the ETOPS overwater certificate standard from FAA. They have to installed the lifejacket & extra life raft, too. Due to high strong high headwinds gusts and it would be put on weight restrictions. They have to installed more extra fuel tanks during overwater flight. If this aircraft doesn't have diverted the flight due to low fuel.

Not exactly many options to divert to if low on fuel either!

Not exactly many options to divert to if low on fuel either!

Right, they will get fully loaded without penalty restrictions.

Now if Virgin Australia operated some of their A330s to HNL (could happen) over the next year or two, then VX could operate the connections to the mainland.

Now if Virgin Australia operated some of their A330s to HNL (could happen) over the next year or two, then VX could operate the connections to the mainland.

They already connect to many cities through LAX.

Hawaii is a crummy allocation of resources for a carrier of this scope and scale.

First, the Airbus narrowbodies are not coming off the production line prepared for ETOPS as are B738/9's. This means downtown for hardware upgrades plus the cabin mods for the overwater safety equipment. And we haven't even talked about the extra staff and certification hurdles just to get ETOPS certified.

Next, the investment in ETOPS need to be repaid via a route that can generate the necessary revenue. At VX, CASM still dwarfs RASM despite revenue gains. Each VX aircraft is already $2M in the hole relative to Southwest, Spirit, or even Frontier due to the cost of the IFE install and programming. The revenue from the TV commercials, BOB meals and pay movies still doesn't cover the cost of the IFE to begin with. Now you want to deploy these same money losers over a long thin leisure route where you lose SAT TV? Also factor in that the A320/319's are pretty maxed out on fuel/payload on a westbound transcon; on an ETOPS mission with all the additional fuel? VX also doesn't carry revenue freight, so even if the Hawaii service allows room in the belly, there is no additional revenue stream to offset the cost of the fuel. Lastly, there is the revenue environment. Over a decade ago, the likes of Aloha and ATA offered a counterpoint to the legacy Hawaiian service. Those counterpoints are gone, replaced by a multipolar, disciplined approach toward yields and pricing by, you guessed it, legacy carriers. What will VX's pricing strategy be? Ignite a fare war that might elicit a response from UA, HA, and AS? Parity in pricing assuming there is still an unmet demand out there? The ability to carve a niche from both LAX and SFO with their large flows to HNL? Plus all the indirect competition from AS and to an extent, HA?

Hawaii is a crummy allocation of resources for a carrier of this scope and scale.


Totally agree with this. Providing new service from west coast to Hawaii would be a bleed on VX's resources. VX would be better off partnering with a legacy carrier to Hawaii.

A Virgin America pilot sat up in the cockpit of Hawaiian Airlines Flt#15 on May 10th from SAN to HNL. Seems as if he was receiving some training... Possibly a sign they are looking into the destination.

A Virgin America pilot sat up in the cockpit of Hawaiian Airlines Flt#15 on May 10th from SAN to HNL. Seems as if he was receiving some training... Possibly a sign they are looking into the destination.

Seems like that would be very counterproductive for HA. Sure he wasn't just deadheading?

We flew F to lax on our way to Hawaii few weeks back and as we were saying wed wish that we didnt have to switch to AA for the last oeg, the F counter guy said they'd be flying to Hawaii next year.

A few days ago I got an email from VX requesting that complete a brief survey for them about possible upcoming routes.

Hawaii was all over the survey with destinations to Kona, Lihue, Maui and Honolulu. Count me in if they are heading West...

If VX flies to Hawaii it wont be anytime soon. They already have a track record of starting service to places that are already saturated with airlines flying the exact same route so I suppose I wouldnt be surprised to see them announce SFO service one day in the future once the Neos arrive however their current A320's wouldnt be able to complete that flight even though they are fairly new and the A319 wouldnt make it with any significant load on it to make a profit for them.

Hawaii was all over the survey with destinations to Kona, Lihue, Maui and Honolulu. Count me in if they are heading West...

And Hilo, HI as well.

And Hilo, HI as well.

??
No one goes to Hilo.
Yes, I lived on the Big Island.

??
No one goes to Hilo.
Yes, I lived on the Big Island.

Hahahaha! Hilo turned out to be the perfect stay for one of my Hawaii trips. Sure, less crowds and not much to do. Bit it's still Hawaii! After two drives around the island though, and I like driving as I'm CA dude, I was DONE!

Got to see the back-up Air Force 1 at the airport during helo tours. Prez was in HNL at the time.

I've had fuel stops flying transcon on an A320 before...I'm wondering if they'd be able to fly A320 to Hawaii without significant payload restrictions, particularly with all that heavy IFE equipment. A319 might have better range, though CASM might be worse.

A few days ago I got an email from VX requesting that complete a brief survey for them about possible upcoming routes.

Hawaii was all over the survey with destinations to Kona, Lihue, Maui and Honolulu. Count me in if they are heading West...

Also received the survey. Sacramento was on the list as well ... :rolleyes:

Hi All,

VX is now accepting application for ETOPS program manager.

https://www.virginamerica.apply2jobs.com/ProfExt/index.cfm?fuseaction=mExternal.showJob&RID=863

You can apply online.

I posted elsewhere on Friday morning (http://milepoint.com/forums/threads/teh-penalty-box.23581/page-2023#post-1378419) about a Virgin America job posting for an ETOPS program manager (https://www.virginamerica.apply2jobs.com/ProfExt/index.cfm?fuseaction=mExternal.showJob&RID=863&CurrentPage=1) which apparently was first posted sometime around March. Now it sounds like VX is in the process of actually getting ETOPS approval, based on a post on NYCAviation (http://nycaviation.com/forum/threads/43121-Virgin-America-doing-proving-runs-between-California-and-Hawaii) yesterday:

I remember when Virgin added SFO + LAX to PHL.

If they do HAWAII it will be to SFO or LAX or both I presume. But most airlines fly connections to Hawaii through here so I don't see how Hawaii makes sense for Virgin America. It is a very competitive market.

Perhaps PHL to HNL?

Hawaii really does not make sense for Virgin America unless of course they want to spread their wings and add new hubs. So perhaps PHL to HNL or something?

LAX + SFO are too crowded already for the Hawaii route.

Hawaii really does not make sense for Virgin America unless of course they want to spread their wings and add new hubs. So perhaps PHL to HNL or something?

A319/320 range is not even close to 5,000 miles.


LAX + SFO are too crowded already for the Hawaii route.

Even if that was true, no airline flies a decent F seat from SFO/LAX to Hawaii.

I remember when Virgin added SFO + LAX to PHL.
Perhaps PHL to HNL?
LAX + SFO are too crowded already for the Hawaii route.

How can a A320/319 fly that? not feasible. HA already flies JFK-HNL anyways.

Overcrowded? VX doesn't care about that. Look at their route map. Just about every new city they have launched has had enough or over capacity to some extent. They only fly to LAX and SFO. There are not many (if any) cities with high profile business/leisure traffic without service to SFO/LAX. VX only cares about coming in with low fares before making them rise eventually and hope that the traffic keeps coming back just because they are "better" service and in reality they cannot run that airline with the fares they always introduce when they start a new route.

How can a A320/319 fly that?

by stopping for fuel halfway there, say in SFO or LAX :P (i know, you were saying non-stop, i'm joking :))

A319/320 range is not even close to 5,000 miles.



Even if that was true, no airline flies a decent F seat from SFO/LAX to Hawaii.

i don't think many people are buying F to HI.

A319/320 range is not even close to 5,000 miles.



Even if that was true, no airline flies a decent F seat from SFO/LAX to Hawaii.

I know the range isn't there. I was just saying it would have been better off to acquire appropriate aircraft for PHL to HNL moreso than do an existing A319/A320 from LAX or SFO to HNL which is a super competitive route.

ETOPS for Hawaii will cost them more than its worth. It is a bad management decision. I could understand Virgin doing it if they had other profitable markets but they are losing money right now and there are still planes due in for new route growth so concentrating on ETOPS to Hawaii right now doesn't seem to make much sense.

I realize Virgin is a high quality airline and people may actually prefer it to others. But it seems like it just will seize other carriers marketshare rather than move Virgin to profitability.

I know the range isn't there. I was just saying it would have been better off to acquire appropriate aircraft for PHL to HNL moreso than do an existing A319/A320 from LAX or SFO to HNL which is a super competitive route.

Philadelphia is just not that important a market for O/D nonstop service to Hawaii.
Even with all its feeder traffic, US doesn't fly PHL-HNL nonstop.
Why do you think VX or anyone would make money on that thinly traveled route?

I realize Virgin is a high quality airline and people may actually prefer it to others. But it seems like it just will seize other carriers marketshare rather than move Virgin to profitability.

Yes, this is exactly VX's game plan, in which they need to quit doing in order to survive. Instead, VX needs to build airline partnerships, especially in the Hawaii market rather than operating their own metal and expand on their infrastructure without a plan for their survival in the long run.

VX has already just about killed itself much like B6 almost did once upon a time expanding too rapidly. The high cost of opening new stations hiring new crew branding in the new city with all their virgin logos and what not and on top of all that you want them to bring a new aircraft onboard basically a widebody A330/777 make it look virgin with all the purple lights and ife system?? That just seems like a disaster and would definatly not work. Like others have said US hasnt started PHL-HNL and neither has Hawaiian Airlines so why would VX do that? They are not even an east coast airline and would be purely hoping for nonstop O/D traffic with absolutly zero chance of connecting anywhere because VX partners with nobody except VA and VS which is how they want to keep it. Branson brought VX in this world to take out United and beat on Delta but now that VS (Virgin Atlantic) is partnering with UA on everything it seems whats the point of VX? I dont think they need a master plan at all. They need to let their new and current routes mature and see how it goes. That way there is no more excuses on expansion cost and we can actually have a SOLID idea for once if this airline is a failure and if it just cost too much to run without demanding enough "want" from guest to pay a premium fare over the competition.

i don't think many people are buying F to HI.

You're probably right, but maybe that means discounted F fares. I flew paid F to HNL last summer (discounted on a buy-up at booking) on a UA 777 with my daughter. I checked the upgrade standby list on the day of departure. On a flight with 36 FC seats I think 33 of them were upgraders (shown as upgraded on the upgrade list). It was the most attention from the FA's I'd ever gotten in FC on UA. They came to us before almost everybody. There was one pax who was above us in the queue for service. He was an older kid, didn't look old enough to have status on his own. I'm guessing he was a son of a UA GS.

VX has already just about killed itself much like B6 almost did once upon a time expanding too rapidly. The high cost of opening new stations hiring new crew branding in the new city with all their virgin logos and what not and on top of all that you want them to bring a new aircraft onboard basically a widebody A330/777 make it look virgin with all the purple lights and ife system?? That just seems like a disaster and would definatly not work. Like others have said US hasnt started PHL-HNL and neither has Hawaiian Airlines so why would VX do that? They are not even an east coast airline and would be purely hoping for nonstop O/D traffic with absolutly zero chance of connecting anywhere because VX partners with nobody except VA and VS which is how they want to keep it. Branson brought VX in this world to take out United and beat on Delta but now that VS (Virgin Atlantic) is partnering with UA on everything it seems whats the point of VX? I dont think they need a master plan at all. They need to let their new and current routes mature and see how it goes. That way there is no more excuses on expansion cost and we can actually have a SOLID idea for once if this airline is a failure and if it just cost too much to run without demanding enough "want" from guest to pay a premium fare over the competition.

Virgins routes are really too limited to count especially for those in NYC Metro.

B6 is a NYC Metro based carrier. VX is based in the West Coast. But B6 has a lot more marketshare and routes than VX does.

B6 and VX have positioned themselves not to compete on most of each others routes except a few like JFK to LAS, JFK to SFO and JFK to LAX. But booking is likely going to be heavier with those on the West Coast than those on the East coast on those routes as well I would assume. Most east coasters would take other airlines on the route.

And B6 partnered for Hawaii as well in its own terminal for the non stop route.

VX flying Hawaii natively doesn't make sense as others have said but then again it will add more competition especially for those on the West Coast. East coasters will more than likely use B6's partner for that route.

Branson brought VX in this world to take out United and beat on Delta but now that VS (Virgin Atlantic) is partnering with UA on everything it seems whats the point of VX?

VS and UA don't partner on anything anymore.

A flight attendant recently told me that VX isn't planing to add Hawaii until they take delivery of the A320Neo. It's very likely to be the first route they put the new planes to use on. So the chances of seeing a VX flight to HNL before 2015 aren't great unless they manage to find themselves a plane through other means.

Sad face... I just took an AA 757 to Hawaii and wow... Even first class looked like crap and coach was just not pleasant. Plus I think we flew in the first 757 ever made. I think I saw them put a laserdisc in to play the inflight entertainment. :)

Looks like you can now use your Elevate points for redemption on Hawaiian Air flights.

Sad face... I just took an AA 757 to Hawaii and wow... Even first class looked like crap and coach was just not pleasant. Plus I think we flew in the first 757 ever made. I think I saw them put a laserdisc in to play the inflight entertainment. :)

It seems like the legacy carriers generally don't put much work into the F cabins to Hawaii. You can often find the lowest-end F product they offer on these routes. We've been pretty happy with Alaska F, which is one of the rare reasonably-priced F products you'll find. Alaska F isn't much better than the other carriers' F products, but the FAs have been nicer and more attentive than on other carriers.

A flight attendant recently told me that VX isn't planing to add Hawaii until they take delivery of the A320Neo. It's very likely to be the first route they put the new planes to use on. So the chances of seeing a VX flight to HNL before 2015 aren't great unless they manage to find themselves a plane through other means.

I think you have wait for A320neo to be delivered sometime in 2015 through 2017. We'll find out soon enough. I think VX will fly from SFO/LAX-HNL/OGG/KOA/LIH or ITO.

I think you have wait for A320neo to be delivered sometime in 2015 through 2017. We'll find out soon enough. I think VX will fly from SFO/LAX-HNL/OGG/KOA/LIH or ITO.

The scenario of VX flying their own metal to Hawaii is in the out years and might not happen at all. Remember, they are struggling to survive. Instead, VX announced a full codeshare partnership with HA today, which is the smartest thing VX has done in a long time. :)

The scenario of VX flying their own metal to Hawaii is in the out years and might not happen at all. Remember, they are struggling to survive. Instead, VX announced a full codeshare partnership with HA today, which is the smartest thing VX has done in a long time. :)

There might have been a window of opportunity when Aloha folded, but that is long gone. Alaska moved in and Hawaiian expanded its mainland service.

The scenario of VX flying their own metal to Hawaii is in the out years and might not happen at all. Remember, they are struggling to survive. Instead, VX announced a full codeshare partnership with HA today, which is the smartest thing VX has done in a long time. :)

I wouldn't say it's the smartest thing they've done, but it makes sense. They won't be flying to Hawaii for a long time, if at all.

There might have been a window of opportunity when Aloha folded, but that is long gone. Alaska moved in and Hawaiian expanded its mainland service.

Agreed, though I suspect WN will try to make a go of it once they have enough planes; they have lots of mindshare in California thanks to owning the intra-CA market as well as OAK.

There might have been a window of opportunity when Aloha folded, but that is long gone. Alaska moved in and Hawaiian expanded its mainland service.

Yes, AQ is cease operations back in Apr 2008. Due to high cost of the fuel. That's why AQ didn't have a survive for any much longer.

Agreed, though I suspect WN will try to make a go of it once they have enough planes; they have lots of mindshare in California thanks to owning the intra-CA market as well as OAK.

I hope you're right about that. It'd be nice to see some real competition for these routes. Does WN have the 737's with the long-range capabilities for this?

They've ordered 738s and they just started service to SJU, which gets them part of the way there. They need the ETOPS equipment and certification...

AA discontinued their SFO-HNL flights this year; as AA's neighbor at SFO terminal 2, it's possible that between O/D traffic in SFO and some AA connecting traffic, VX could make this limited opportunity go. AS has certainly managed to capitalize out of Aloha's demise and AA's cutback, but their flights are out of OAK and SJC.

I was on two 100% full AS flights SJC-KOA and back two weeks ago. Both were 737-800 flights with ETOPS, per the painted designation near the front landing gear. The Bay Area has plenty of o/D travelers.

They've ordered 738s and they just started service to SJU, which gets them part of the way there. They need the ETOPS equipment and certification...

Right, WN had already ordered the 738 aircraft in a couple years ago. I am well aware of WN is interested the 737-900ER aircraft. Because the flight were always full. Because it was too many customers who flying on WN. Doesn't make sense. I believe WN has already deferred some 737-800 orders. WN has already 29 738 aircraft is in the fleet.

AS has certainly managed to capitalize out of Aloha's demise and AA's cutback, but their flights are out of OAK...

Not a problem from my perspective here in Berkeley.