Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate - $11,000 penalties

Has there been any record of anyone actually being assessed one of those TSA $11,000 civil penalties? I've read lots of threats, but are they for real?

Has there been any record of anyone actually being assessed one of those TSA $11,000 civil penalties? I've read lots of threats, but are they for real?
It is a real civil penalty, one of a number of them for various actions at a checkpoint that don't rise to the level of a crime. What we've heard (and is consistent with reports) is that it can't be assessed by anybody at the airport, but they file a report asking for somebody at TSA HQ to investigate. That group seems reluctant to actually assess penalties unless the behavior is particularly egregious (simply refusing a search doesn't meet that threshold) but it has been assessed.

It is a real civil penalty,.....That group seems reluctant to actually assess penalties unless the behavior is particularly egregious (simply refusing a search doesn't meet that threshold) but it has been assessed.

I find it fascinating that it has. Do you have links to examples?

I find it fascinating that it has. Do you have links to examples?
I think my post might have been a bit ambiguous. What I meant to say was that civil penalties have been assessed, and there are numerous reports of them (e.g., for accidentally having a gun). I didn't mean to imply that the particular top penalty ($11,000) has been assessed.

I too would love to know if any have been assessed, how many, how much.

Figure I ask for a full list on Monday and I'll get it 2016.

Problem is... any specific security incident is SSI, or at least that's how they'll assess fines against us.

I know that John Tyner, the “Don’t touch my junk” guy was not fined, he stood up to the TSA by refusing to go through the NOS when selected and was escorted out of the terminal by both the TSA and airport police. He had already received his refund of his ticket from the ticket counter in the lobby and was heading out of the terminal when he was approached by a higher level TSA suit who threatened him with fines if he did not return to the checkpoint to complete the screening process. He still refused and since he was in the lobby, the non sterile part of the terminal, the airport police just stood by and did nothing and he basically walked out of the terminal leaving the TSA suits standing in the lobby.

He had all of this on video which he posted on YouTube, so the TSA suits or the police could not fabricate anything like disorderly conduct, and I read somewhere that the TSA notified him that they were no going to fine him at all.

Same about the Alaska state representative who refused a body inspection when the NOS showed an anomaly on her chest, she recently had a cancerous breast removed and what the NOS was showing was scar tissue. She was then not allowed to enter the sterile area and was escorted out without completing the screening process to resolve the anomaly, she also was not fined by the TSA.

I feel the if the TSA does actually levy a $11,000 fine, after the TSA’s kangaroo court upholds the fine, and the person decides to appeal the fine to the Federal District Court, the chances that the court will rule the fine excessive or even possibly even illegal, so I believe the TSA would not even take the chance because if the court rules against the TSA, this takes away from the TSA the threat of a huge fine the screeners can use to force passengers into submitting to all their demands.

Mr. Elliott

I find it fascinating that it has. Do you have links to examples?

Wasn't the woman with the bookmark fined? Also, I think the woman who got into it over her now-deceased mother was fined as well.

Back on the FOIA issue, I believe that these Administrative Law Judge Kangaroo Courts aren't actually courts, so there's no requirement for the records to be made public. I would think it would be hard or impossible to obtain records of the fines the Coast Guard ALJ hands out for boating violations (same for the FAA and aviation violations).

So, these are ordinary government records and are subject to FOIA. I would think that, if the TSA worked at it, they could release records with the Privacy Act information redacted fairly easily.

Another way would be for someone (perhaps a FT poster) who has been threatened with a fine (or actually fined) to post about the experience and procedures.

I feel the if the TSA does actually levy a $11,000 fine, after the TSA’s kangaroo court upholds the fine, and the person decides to appeal the fine to the Federal District Court, the chances that the court will rule the fine excessive or even possibly even illegal, so I believe the TSA would not even take the chance because if the court rules against the TSA, this takes away from the TSA the threat of a huge fine the screeners can use to force passengers into submitting to all their demands.
I think that everybody understands that these fines won't be assessed for people simply refusing to submit to procedures: these are for people who bring prohibited items through or actively interfere with the screening process, notwithstanding some of the bluster that we've occaisionally heard.

I think that everybody understands that these fines won't be assessed for people simply refusing to submit to procedures: these are for people who bring prohibited items through or actively interfere with the screening process, notwithstanding some of the bluster that we've occaisionally heard.

This opens up a whole other discussion, the TSA can claim that refusing to submit to screening procedures, you are in fact interfering with the screening process and are subject to fines.

The screeners will do anything they can to force compliance, including threats of fines, and arrest because as they claim they can do anything they want because you surrender all your rights at the checkpoint. This is what the TSA suits tried to do to John Tyner, even after he was escorted from the checkpoint, force him back to complete the screening process under the threat of a fine.

Who knows, if he had not posted the video on YouTube, he might have been fined, I am sure not $11,000 dollars, but something much less. As one of our resident TSO’s posted, the suits do not have the authority to assess a fine, they only fill out a report and it is up to another division, I believe it is called regulatory that decides to impose a fine or not

I agree about fines for trying to bring prohibited items through the checkpoint, and they rightfully deserve to be fined. This no different than being fined $300.00 bringing in any foods items through the border without declaring that you have food products, either banned or not.

I believe the woman who got into it over her now deceased mother was arrested and fined by the local authorities and given a suspended sentence and told to stay out of trouble by the judge, I don’t think the TSA followed up with a fine of their own, the bad publicity the TSA would have faced, fining a women defending her mother would have been far worse than any money they would have collected in fining her.

Mr. Elliott

This opens up a whole other discussion, the TSA can claim that refusing to submit to screening procedures, you are in fact interfering with the screening process and are subject to fines.
In both normal English and in the law, the word "interfere" implies doing something. You don't "interfere" by chosing to not do something. In any event, as has been discussed here multiple times, there has never been any evidence that the regulatory branch would ever impose a fine under those conditions and there have even been statements saying that they would not.

You can certainly contest the fine at an Administrative Law Court - my aviation law professor was a ALC judge and they are not kangaroo courts and will not automatically side with the TSA. You can bring a lawyer and make demands of proof on the TSA, show evidence, etc. These same courts hear a variety of cases, including the fine and penalty cases brought by the FAA against certificate holders (which is what they spent most of their time doing before the TSA came into everyone's nightmares).

The only way a civil penalty is sure to go against you in a ALC is if you brought a weapon through the checkpoint - anything else is pretty much up for grabs.

Wasn't the woman with the bookmark fined? Also, I think the woman who got into it over her now-deceased mother was fined as well.


I think the question is have any of the large threatened $11,000 fines been levied. There have been *lots* of smaller fines assessed, such as the passenger at SMF fined for carrying a cheese slicer. :rolleyes:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-issues/378330-cheese-slicer-snafu-smf-checkpoint.html


Cheese and crackers: Chuck Blogin was going to mail a cheese platter and slicer to friends in San Juan Capistrano. But son Curtis Blogin was flying south. Curtis would deliver the gift personally. "I took Curtis to the Sacramento airport, and we checked his baggage. The cheese gift was in his carry-on," Chuck said. "A woman security guard said he couldn't carry the cheese slicer on board, but could go back and have them put it in his checked baggage. End of conversation." Days later, Curtis got a letter from the Sacramento Intergalactic Airport office of Federal Security. The letter alleged Curtis was transporting not a cheese slicer but a "knife." It said he broke the law. "We are proposing to assess a civil penalty in the amount of $250," the letter said. "Should you timely submit a payment of $125, the case will be closed." Chuck was stunned. "Nobody at the airport mentioned this," he said. He made calls. A Homeland Security official reduced the fine to $50. The Blogins paid. "It's over," Chuck said. The friends in San Juan Capistrano love their cheese slicer. ...



I think that everybody understands that these fines won't be assessed for people simply refusing to submit to procedures: these are for people who bring prohibited items through or actively interfere with the screening process, notwithstanding some of the bluster that we've occaisionally [sic] heard.

Uh, no, it's not bluster. See link above. Cheese-slicer-man was hardly trying to "actively interfere" nor were the couple who were fined for carrying a wedding-cake server after their wedding. If TSA collects your identifying information for any reason at a checkpoint, your dossier will likely go before some desk-bound bureaucrat who has the authority to arbitrarily levy fines. That's why it's crucial to use ID without your address on it and hold out as long as possible if they try to get your home address.

I used to work for FAA enforcement and I can give some insight into the process. Most of the items confiscated at the airport are simply junked/sold whatever. Only, in serious cases would an enforcement action take place. In that case the FAA regional counsel’s office would receive the file from the TSA and one of three things would take place: one, the matter is dropped; two, the enforcement process starts; or three, in the case of sensitive cases it is forwarded on to the national counsel’s office in D.C.

Looking at number two, if the regional counsel’s office decides to proceed with the action, an enforcement letter is sent to the person. This letter details what happened, how it violates the Code of Federal Regulations, what the proposed fine is, and procedural steps after this. Now a person can accept the fine/punishment (almost never happens), negotiate a settlement (happens most often) or go before an ALJ.

Now, the main question was how are the fines levied? Well this is done according to an UNPUBLISHED schedule. It is fairly rare that the maximum fine of 11,000.00 is levied, normally the numbers are in the 1,000-5,000 range. In the event that the fines exceed some amount or the proposed punishment exceeds some number the national counsel’s office would have to approve that.

I wouldn’t think that getting mouthy with the TSA, or even being escorted out of the airport would be enough to draw a penalty. I would think a person would have to actively prevent the TSA officers from doing their jobs.

Once in the checkpoint, case law states that a person has consented to the complete check. I think that if you say refuse to consent to a pat-down, the TSA would just call a LEO. They would do the pat-down and you would be escorted from the airport. Once you leave the TSA checkpoint on the LAND SIDE the TSA have no power.

I used to work for FAA enforcement and I can give some insight into the process. Most of the items confiscated at the airport are simply junked/sold whatever. Only, in serious cases would an enforcement action take place. In that case the FAA regional counsel’s office would receive the file from the TSA and one of three things would take place: one, the matter is dropped; two, the enforcement process starts; or three, in the case of sensitive cases it is forwarded on to the national counsel’s office in D.C.

Looking at number two, if the regional counsel’s office decides to proceed with the action, an enforcement letter is sent to the person. This letter details what happened, how it violates the Code of Federal Regulations, what the proposed fine is, and procedural steps after this. Now a person can accept the fine/punishment (almost never happens), negotiate a settlement (happens most often) or go before an ALJ.

Now, the main question was how are the fines levied? Well this is done according to an UNPUBLISHED schedule. It is fairly rare that the maximum fine of 11,000.00 is levied, normally the numbers are in the 1,000-5,000 range. In the event that the fines exceed some amount or the proposed punishment exceeds some number the national counsel’s office would have to approve that.

I wouldn’t think that getting mouthy with the TSA, or even being escorted out of the airport would be enough to draw a penalty. I would think a person would have to actively prevent the TSA officers from doing their jobs.

Once in the checkpoint, case law states that a person has consented to the complete check. I think that if you say refuse to consent to a pat-down, the TSA would just call a LEO. They would do the pat-down and you would be escorted from the airport. Once you leave the TSA checkpoint on the LAND SIDE the TSA have no power.

So what do they do if this a tourist! A foreigner?

They cant refuse them flying can they? And does that not go against immigration and their policy that "you" have to leave the country?

Most of the items confiscated at the airport

The TSA says it doesn't confiscate anything...

TSA actually published a schedule of ranges of fines for individuals a while back (starting on page 7):

http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/enforcement_sanction_guidance_policy.pdf

For example, the (presumably) unfortunate dad who found himself in possession of firearm parts (http://www.wltx.com/news/national/article/186820/142/TSA-Finds-Gun-Parts-Hidden-in-Toys-) hidden in his kid's stuffed animals at PVD recently (allegedly due to retaliation over a custody spat) could face a fine of $250-$1500 if they determine that it was just firearm parts or $3000-$7000 if they decide it was a complete unloaded firearm with accessible ammunition.

There is also a $100-$200 fine for "artful concealment" of "non explosive liquids," i.e., if TSA decides putting your oversized perfume in the inner pocket of your bag is artful, you may get fined. (It's ironic that TSA is fining people for carrying items TSA admits are not threats.)

What is particularly unfortunate and also classic TSA behavior is that the passenger will have no idea the fine is coming until he receives notice in the mail. The PVD passenger probably thinks his ordeal is over after being interrogated by TSA and law enforcement, but it likely is not.

The only listed individual penalty that reaches $11,000 is for carrying high explosives. So assuming TSA follows their own published policy (bad assumption), the best way to see if they have levied any $11,000 fines against individuals would be to contact the guy who was carrying C4 a while back.


I wouldn’t think that getting mouthy with the TSA, or even being escorted out of the airport would be enough to draw a penalty. I would think a person would have to actively prevent the TSA officers from doing their jobs.


I'm not so sure about that. The TSA fine schedule indicates penalties of $500-$1500 for "non-physical interference with screening," which sounds like a catch-all contempt of TSO charge that could be used against mouthy passengers. In addition, "attitude of violator" can be an aggravating factor for increasing the fine. In fact, passengers such as Phil Mocek have been accused of "interference with screening" for merely pointing a camera at TSOs, even though the only disruption of the screening process is the TSOs freaking out about the camera.

Serious question: Did Barry Switzer get a fine a couple of years ago for accidentally bringing in the gun? If not, the cheese slicer thing seems egregiously unfair and inequitable, even if it was just $50.

What is particularly unfortunate and also classic TSA behavior is that the passenger will have no idea the fine is coming until he receives notice in the mail.

That's why it's crucial to use ID without your address on it and hold out as long as possible if they try to get your home address.

My wife thinks I'm purposely antagonistic and too paranoid when I fly... but this is EXACTLY why I hide my wallet deep inside my carryon and only fly with my passport card. They might be able to easily get my name, but I'll be escorted out by a LEO before TSA comes close to getting my home address out of my mouth... Which I guess isn't that hard to get from the airline, but probably too much effort for an annoyed TSO to go through.

So what do they do if this a tourist! A foreigner?

They cant refuse them flying can they? And does that not go against immigration and their policy that "you" have to leave the country?

If a non US-Citizen is fined and they do not pay, they will find it rather difficult to re-enter the U.S. I think.

longish post

The TSA can publish whatever they want. Which unless the TSA has their own enforcement division I can't really see them going after every person that has an item and they don't. I am guessing they publish that just to scare people.

there are three groups of people:
1) those that are stupid and bring something minor.
2) those that are stupid and bring something major.
and
3) those that intend trouble.

Enforcement actions target the 2nd group of people.

As far as verbally interferening with screening, I would imagine that would have to be pretty severe to garner a fine.

Serious question: Did Barry Switzer get a fine a couple of years ago for accidentally bringing in the gun? If not, the cheese slicer thing seems egregiously unfair and inequitable, even if it was just $50.

If you try and bring a gun through security you're going to get fined.

My wife thinks I'm purposely antagonistic and too paranoid when I fly... but this is EXACTLY why I hide my wallet deep inside my carryon and only fly with my passport card. They might be able to easily get my name, but I'll be escorted out by a LEO before TSA comes close to getting my home address out of my mouth... Which I guess isn't that hard to get from the airline, but probably too much effort for an annoyed TSO to go through.

I really wouldn't worry about it. At the point where you have reached drawing the attention of the enforcement department they're going to have your address.

I used to work for FAA enforcement and I can give some insight into the process.

How often are FAs fined for not enforcing FARs or OpSpecs? For years I've heard rumors about someone, somewhere, getting fined, but there are never any details. This would even come up in recurrent training from time to time. One detail that is always absent is anything about the administrative process. The story always comes off as if a LEO was writing a traffic citation.

Without further evidence, I concluded long ago that these boogeyman stories are, for the most part, jumpseat rumors. I'm not saying it's never happened, but some FAs act as if an undercover FAA guy is going to whip out his 110A credential at any moment and issue a fine on the spot.

How often are FAs fined for not enforcing FARs or OpSpecs? For years I've heard rumors about someone, somewhere, getting fined, but there are never any details. This would even come up in recurrent training from time to time. One detail that is always absent is anything about the administrative process. The story always comes off as if a LEO was writing a traffic citation.

Without further evidence, I concluded long ago that these boogeyman stories are, for the most part, jumpseat rumors. I'm not saying it's never happened, but some FAs act as if an undercover FAA guy is going to whip out his 110A credential at any moment and issue a fine on the spot.

FAA inspectors ride commercial flights often - and they have the right to ride in the jumpseat and inspect the flight deck crew, and either pass them, write up infractions or ground their certificate....in the cabin the inspector can fine a FA, or the airline.

Another option is a passenger calling a specific complaint (with specifics) to a FSDO and the resulting investigation confirms the report, hence a fine is issued to the crew member or carrier or both.

Of course if the local FSDO is buddies with the airline execs (ie Colgan), the chance of a fine is rare, even when warranted.

Cheese-slicer-man was hardly trying to "actively interfere" nor were the couple who were fined for carrying a wedding-cake server after their wedding.
Sigh. There are two separate cases being talked about here. One is having a prohibited object and the other is active interference.

Once in the checkpoint, case law states that a person has consented to the complete check.
Careful: that case law talks about consent with respect to whether anything found can be subsequently used in court. There is no case law with respect to whether consent of something that normally requires explicit consent (such as touching the person) has been given. These are legally two very different concepts.

How often are FAs fined for not enforcing FARs or OpSpecs? For years I've heard rumors about someone, somewhere, getting fined, but there are never any details. This would even come up in recurrent training from time to time. One detail that is always absent is anything about the administrative process. The story always comes off as if a LEO was writing a traffic citation.

Without further evidence, I concluded long ago that these boogeyman stories are, for the most part, jumpseat rumors. I'm not saying it's never happened, but some FAs act as if an undercover FAA guy is going to whip out his 110A credential at any moment and issue a fine on the spot.

I should have mentioned this the FSDO has the option of writing a "ticket" that does not rise to the level of an enforcement action. Those are for ticky-tack violations that mostly result in the pilot or whomever taking X number of hours of training. The person I believe can have that reviewed by the regional counsel's office, but it almost never happens. It is just not worth it.

Most of the enforcement actions towards flight crews were against private pilots who were either operating charter services or doing something stupid (flying in restricted airspace, landing on the wrong runway). There are very few regs regarding FA's so I never saw actions against them on my desk.

For a comercial pilot if they were to end up in an enforcement action, it would probably be career ending. So, it never happens that often.

The only listed individual penalty that reaches $11,000 is for carrying high explosives.
Yes, but see the note at the very end of the document.

I'm not so sure about that. The TSA fine schedule indicates penalties of $500-$1500 for "non-physical interference with screening," which sounds like a catch-all contempt of TSO charge that could be used against mouthy passengers.
Look at the context. 3(B)(i) talks about physical contact, so "physical" in (ii) likely means "physical contact". In other words, blocking the checkpoint without touching a TSO would qualify. Whatever the TSA might want to believe, the First Amendment very much applies here and it would be very hard to impose a fine for merely saying something: it would likely have to rise to the level of the sort of thing that's considered disorderly conduct (e.g., "fighting words" in Florida).

FAA inspectors ride commercial flights often - and they have the right to ride in the jumpseat and inspect the flight deck crew, and either pass them, write up infractions or ground their certificate....

I had them aboard many times when I was a FA at US. ;) They would check the emergency equipment, ask to see our manuals to confirm they had the current revision, etc. Always a non-event.

If a non US-Citizen is fined and they do not pay, they will find it rather difficult to re-enter the U.S. I think.



The TSA can publish whatever they want. Which unless the TSA has their own enforcement division I can't really see them going after every person that has an item and they don't. I am guessing they publish that just to scare people.

there are three groups of people:
1) those that are stupid and bring something minor.
2) those that are stupid and bring something major.
and
3) those that intend trouble.

Enforcement actions target the 2nd group of people.

As far as verbally interferening with screening, I would imagine that would have to be pretty severe to garner a fine.



If you try and bring a gun through security you're going to get fined.



I really wouldn't worry about it. At the point where you have reached drawing the attention of the enforcement department they're going to have your address.

Ok I know that people who get hassled by TSA will never /ever try to come back to USA.

People I know think TSA is not even worth to visit USA any more.

Means to me that my family dont even want to come here.
They used to come every year.

They dont want to be yelled. groped and so on.

A lot of tourist money lost there.

I should have mentioned this the FSDO has the option of writing a "ticket" that does not rise to the level of an enforcement action. Those are for ticky-tack violations that mostly result in the pilot or whomever taking X number of hours of training. The person I believe can have that reviewed by the regional counsel's office, but it almost never happens. It is just not worth it.

Most of the enforcement actions towards flight crews were against private pilots who were either operating charter services or doing something stupid (flying in restricted airspace, landing on the wrong runway). There are very few regs regarding FA's so I never saw actions against them on my desk.

For a comercial pilot if they were to end up in an enforcement action, it would probably be career ending. So, it never happens that often.

I have been involved in one such enforcement action along with my DM. I assure you that if an inspector in the FSDO or Regional gets a hair in the wrong place it can happen. The action was merit less, but it over six years of associated BS to end the matter, along with a trip to Independence Avenue. We did nothing wrong, dotted every I and crossed every t. Things were claimed which were not true, and the Feds could not support their allegations, but I assure you it was an interesting several years. One enterprising senior inspector at regional even threatened to do an emergency revocation of my ticket after I didn't testify the way he wanted, and he said it was in retaliation, tape recorders are such marvelous toys, in such matters. All because the company owner got into a contest with a friend of the inspector over a non-aviation transaction.

In another more recent case, a friend got fined $5000 for failing to timely file the eAPIS notice, despite all the other stuff being filed--flight plan with ADCUS, customs notification, etc. The eAPIS was filed late by the airline. Fortunately, the airline paid the fine, but every time I travel privately with this captain, I get a delay departing the US because of it. So, yes it does happen and DHS is by far worse than DoT.

I have been involved in one such enforcement action along with my DM. I assure you that if an inspector in the FSDO or Regional gets a hair in the wrong place it can happen. The action was merit less, but it over six years of associated BS to end the matter, along with a trip to Independence Avenue. We did nothing wrong, dotted every I and crossed every t. Things were claimed which were not true, and the Feds could not support their allegations, but I assure you it was an interesting several years. One enterprising senior inspector at regional even threatened to do an emergency revocation of my ticket after I didn't testify the way he wanted, and he said it was in retaliation, tape recorders are such marvelous toys, in such matters. All because the company owner got into a contest with a friend of the inspector over a non-aviation transaction.

In another more recent case, a friend got fined $5000 for failing to timely file the eAPIS notice, despite all the other stuff being filed--flight plan with ADCUS, customs notification, etc. The eAPIS was filed late by the airline. Fortunately, the airline paid the fine, but every time I travel privately with this captain, I get a delay departing the US because of it. So, yes it does happen and DHS is by far worse than DoT.

Without going into detail (it was a different agency, but identical enforcement setup & processes), I can state that this is quite typical. In one agency's field office, the inspectors used to create contests between them of how many violations (regardless of how small) they could find in a day's inspections.

I think we can all relate stories of FSDO :rolleyes:, and what happened to Bob Hoover 20 years ago resulted in a Senate bill that gives certificate holders the right to immediately appeal an emergency revocation to the NTSB.

On the other hand, I've also had positive interactions with FSDOs, and for some time now have stated that the TSA should be moved to the DOT with FAA oversight.

I think we can all relate stories of FSDO :rolleyes:, and what happened to Bob Hoover 20 years ago resulted in a Senate bill that gives certificate holders the right to immediately appeal an emergency revocation to the NTSB.
or the scimitar props, or the handheld gps units clamped to the yoke...
On the other hand, I've also had positive interactions with FSDOs, and for some time now have stated that the TSA should be moved to the DOT with FAA oversight.
Agree. My recent experiences with the certification side of the FSDO has been better than it used to be.

Without going into detail (it was a different agency, but identical enforcement setup & processes), I can state that this is quite typical. In one agency's field office, the inspectors used to create contests between them of how many violations (regardless of how small) they could find in a day's inspections.

:td: How petty. :td:

I think we can all relate stories of FSDO :rolleyes:, and what happened to Bob Hoover 20 years ago resulted in a Senate bill that gives certificate holders the right to immediately appeal an emergency revocation to the NTSB.

On the other hand, I've also had positive interactions with FSDOs, and for some time now have stated that the TSA should be moved to the DOT with FAA oversight.

^