Flying Blue (Air France, KLM, and Other Partners) - Vanishing "O" class?

Is it me, or are "O" class harder to come by lately?

I haven't been seeing them much in the past 2 months when I searched for seats on my preferred travel dates, when I used to see them more regularly in the past.

Is it me, or are "O" class harder to come by lately?

I haven't been seeing them much in the past 2 months when I searched for seats on my preferred travel dates, when I used to see them more regularly in the past.
Are you trying to use DL or FB miles? That might make a difference. And are you searching on the AF or KLM website or elsewhere?

Are you trying to use DL or FB miles? That might make a difference. And are you searching on the AF or KLM website or elsewhere?

DL miles.

I've been searching on EF. I used to see availability pretty readily, but it has declined for me. Just for reference my POS is typically South East Asia (for which I will include HKG) to Europe

When you start from CDG, you get plenty of O fare. From HKG it is hard to get O fares to anywhere but CDG. As mentioned by many, FB seem to privilege Paris-based members.

When you start from CDG, you get plenty of O fare. From HKG it is hard to get O fares to anywhere but CDG. As mentioned by many, FB seem to privilege Paris-based members.

Is this applicable for KL as well?

I am seeing this too. For example CDG-YUL-CDG which has huge capacity and always used to have several daily flights with O9 now has nothing for months on end. Similar story for CDG-IAD-CDG.

I am using ExpertFlyer to check

I am seeing this too. For example CDG-YUL-CDG which has huge capacity and always used to have several daily flights with O9 now has nothing for months on end. Similar story for CDG-IAD-CDG.

I am using ExpertFlyer to check

Yup, that is what I mean.

For me OTOH: I am based in Asia, and I noticed significant drop in BKK / SIN / HKG / KUL to AMS /CDG

FWIW, barring public holidays in Europe, and June / Dec, I would usually see some availability in O 2-9 (Wednesdays flights) but now I always see 0!

It is as if the well is totally dried up!

indeed, I find that the O availability from (to) HKG has been drastically reduced while C availability is still good. It must be a new policy to make O Biz awards more difficult to get and "induce" to book in the outrageous C.
Locals confirm that loads in paid biz are not that high.

Sigh! :(

During the FT DO at CDG, this exact point was raised with the FB people. They were unaware of the issue, professed that this was not a conscience decision on their part and that they would look into it.

I have a feeling (this is just a feeling) that they are aware, but either have too much to do at the moment or the problem will be fixed during roll-out of something later in the year and they are bothered about fixing beforehand.

Either way, they are aware of the problem.

During the FT DO at CDG, this exact point was raised with the FB people. They were unaware of the issue, professed that this was not a conscience decision on their part and that they would look into it.

I have a feeling (this is just a feeling) that they are aware, but either have too much to do at the moment or the problem will be fixed during roll-out of something later in the year and they are bothered about fixing beforehand.

Either way, they are aware of the problem.

Good to know!

hopefully they will!

Good to know!

hopefully they will!


Me too JFK-CDG and CDG-JFK have no 'O' for the next 3 months. I'm booked in 'W' and am hopeful!

During the FT DO at CDG, this exact point was raised with the FB people. They were unaware of the issue, professed that this was not a conscience decision on their part and that they would look into it.

I have a feeling (this is just a feeling) that they are aware, but either have too much to do at the moment or the problem will be fixed during roll-out of something later in the year and they are bothered about fixing beforehand.

Either way, they are aware of the problem.

I agree...the AF folks looked completely surprised.

I have seen scattered O availability, more so midweek. However, CDG-JFK on any Sunday or Monday has been very scarce.

The information is probably too political to be made public, but opening fewer classic award (O) is an easy way to make awards more expensive (having to book flex awards C) without changing the awards tables.

Me too JFK-CDG and CDG-JFK have no 'O' for the next 3 months. I'm booked in 'W' and am hopeful!

check 1-3 days before departure. AF usually opens up a lot of O space 24-72 hours prior to departure.

check 1-3 days before departure. AF usually opens up a lot of O space 24-72 hours prior to departure.

I've actually been looking at that as well, just to see if that is the trend and nothing seems to be open every time I check. I use ExpertFlyer and search on 3 days either side of the weekend JFK_LHR and LHR-JFK on all flights. Look at this weekend as an example. (I've tried the past few weeks) :(

I've actually been looking at that as well, just to see if that is the trend and nothing seems to be open every time I check. I use ExpertFlyer and search on 3 days either side of the weekend JFK_LHR and LHR-JFK on all flights. Look at this weekend as an example. (I've tried the past few weeks) :(

This weekend would be tough because it is also a public holiday in France on Monday.

I have a theory. I reckon they rather sell the last minute upgrade offers than "selling" O awards. Further, I seriously doubt that Flying Blue has a big influence in availabillity of booking classes. Availability of booking classes, including O, is more likely based on economical models, imho.

Having said that, low availabillity of O doesn't exactly make FB a more atractive program for me. Long haul O is the only thing I book from my miles. Why make an effort to collect FB miles in case booking O becomes almost impossible?

I have a theory. I reckon they rather sell the last minute upgrade offers than "selling" O awards. Further, I seriously doubt that Flying Blue has a big influence in availabillity of booking classes. Availability of booking classes, including O, is more likely based on economical models, imho.

I beg to differ and believe that "O" probably give them more revenue than selling the seat for a last minute upgrade.

Last minute upgrades are usually around 400 euro (I could be mistaken). While "selling" for miles would be the total number of miles multiple of cost per mile. I am not sure how AFKL values miles, but say they value it at 1 euro per 100 miles and throw in taxes, I am sure that they earn more revenue using this.

Don't forget, they also sell miles to credit card companies as additional revenue streams too, think FB amex.

I beg to differ and believe that "O" probably give them more revenue than selling the seat for a last minute upgrade.

Last minute upgrades are usually around 400 euro (I could be mistaken). While "selling" for miles would be the total number of miles multiple of cost per mile. I am not sure how AFKL values miles, but say they value it at 1 euro per 100 miles and throw in taxes, I am sure that they earn more revenue using this.

Don't forget, they also sell miles to credit card companies as additional revenue streams too, think FB amex.

I do not agree. FB members accumulate a certain amount of miles. Then they have to spend them using the award they can get. O awards (longhaul biz) is the most attractive award as pointed out by Zembla. AF gets additional money with paid upgrades but FB members still have to use their miles somehow if they cannot get O award. In terms of cash (that AF badly needs), it is a net addition. By increasingly forcing FB members to use Flex awards in biz (C, double miles) or less attractive coach awards, AF is making money.
The net result is that FB miles become less and less valuable for FB Members.

Yes, bear in mind that since miles 'vanish' after 20 months for irregular flyers, there can now be an incentive for AF to ensure a proportion of FFers simply do not get the chance to spend theirs. Also bear in mind that O class means that the award can be used by any Skyteam FFer of which there are more and more as (1) airlines such as DL comp status and miles through special promotions (I know because I have a dormant SM account and keep receiving ridiculous promotions for thousands and thousands of bonus miles) and (2) Skyteam keeps extending. I have no doubt that AF gets very little from her partners when their members use awards, by contrast, last minute upgrades bring cash directly into AF's pockets...

Yes, bear in mind that since miles 'vanish' after 20 months for irregular flyers, there can now be an incentive for AF to ensure a proportion of FFers simply do not get the chance to spend theirs. Also bear in mind that O class means that the award can be used by any Skyteam FFer of which there are more and more as (1) airlines such as DL comp status and miles through special promotions (I know because I have a dormant SM account and keep receiving ridiculous promotions for thousands and thousands of bonus miles) and (2) Skyteam keeps extending. I have no doubt that AF gets very little from her partners when their members use awards, by contrast, last minute upgrades bring cash directly into AF's pockets...

This problem isn't new in some markets. Last year I waited eight months from booking to flight on a W class AF ticket, checking daily for O availability (admittedly, this was ex-SEA before it was pulled, on a 343 but still, O zero for eight months...)

In the end, I flew in PV. Obviously this would be frustrating if I thought that DL PMUs were actually useful and/or had spent money on ST tickets to achieve DL status and PMUs with this "benefit" in mind.

Since the ticket was a misfiled PRG one, and I'd fuel-dumped even the minimal cost to below the YQ on AF's own award tickets, it didn't concern me much. It was disappointing that no AF rev-mgmnt at CDG wanted to talk about this ticket..booked on the website of their JV partner, DL. :D

I can see however that if I paid what I pay to fly UA and Star partners and such benefit wasn't delivered, then I'd be less sanguine.

This problem isn't new in some markets. Last year I waited eight months from booking to flight on a W class AF ticket, checking daily for O availability (admittedly, this was ex-SEA before it was pulled, on a 343 but still, O zero for eight months...)

In the end, I flew in PV. Obviously this would be frustrating if I thought that DL PMUs were actually useful and/or had spent money on ST tickets to achieve DL status and PMUs with this "benefit" in mind.

Since the ticket was a misfiled PRG one, and I'd fuel-dumped even the minimal cost to below the YQ on AF's own award tickets, it didn't concern me much. It was disappointing that no AF rev-mgmnt at CDG wanted to talk about this ticket..booked on the website of their JV partner, DL. :D

I can see however that if I paid what I pay to fly UA and Star partners and such benefit wasn't delivered, then I'd be less sanguine.

I upgraded the very same ticket SEA-PRG last year; also fuel dumped. It was O0 for months, then 1O shoed up and I upgarded asap ... then it was O0 through departure. It can go either way.

I am trying to move a November 2nd CDG-LAX ticket to anytime but that time, preferably middle of October or January and finding bupkiss. I hate to see that 380 biz seat not get used, but I am already going to be in France that day and can't change my return flight.

I can fly into PHL, BOS, EWR, HOU, ORD, IAD, SFO, anywhere that partners with AS as this is an AS mileage award booked into O class.

Found massive O availabillity to YUL next year. Is something changing? ^

Tip regarding the quirky award booking engine: select all classes and not business class. When I selected business class I got nothing. When I selected all classes it was nicely listed there.

Found massive O availabillity to YUL next year. Is something changing? ^

Tip regarding the quirky award booking engine: select all classes and not business class. When I selected business class I got nothing. When I selected all classes it was nicely listed there.

Same thing happens with ExpertFlyer when you check AF availability. Especially if you want to set alerts you should check both business, coach as well as business for elites