Air France Frequence Plus - End of ID/BP cross-check at boarding in France for AF flights, starting May 15th

Suppression de la vérification de la concordance documentaire à l´embarquement au départ des escales de France.

Les autorités françaises ont décidé d´appliquer le régime commun de l´Union Européenne.

A compter du 15 mai 2012, la vérification de concordance entre les cartes d´accès à bord et une pièce d´identité est supprimée au départ de toutes les escales françaises, sur les vols Air France, y compris ceux assurés par DB / YS / A5 / WX.

Loosely translated:

effective May 15th, cross-check of boarding pass and ID documents when boarding the plane will be discontinued at French airports, for all AF operated flights, including those operated for Air France by Regional, Brit Air, Cityjet and Airlinair.

So they will not sure the person of the ticket is the person actually on the flight?!

So they will not sure the person of the ticket is the person actually on the flight?!

I've read a lot of outcry against the ID check at boarding on FT, but I never understood why. I have nothing against the airline checking that the person boarding is the owner of the ticket (I wouldn't want someone to substitute his bp to mine and take my seat, but I can't really see that happening commonly). I wasn't under the impression that ID checks were delaying boarding.

As I understand it, they will not ask to see your BP any more while stepping on the plane.
They continue to check your ID and BP with the machine while entering the gate holdingpen/jetway.

Am I right?

As I understand it, they will not ask to see your BP any more while stepping on the plane.
They continue to check your ID and BP with the machine while entering the gate holdingpen/jetway.

Am I right?

Sorry, but a more accurrate translation would be that they will stop checking that ID and BP match at boarding. I think it's the check made a the desk, not onboard the plane.

same procedure for Schengen flights flying to France.

same procedure for Schengen flights flying to France.

So, harmonization is the sole benefit? I'll sleep better tonight knowing that aircraft boarding procedures are identical in the Schengen space...

Edit: marginal benefit, if you meet a friend at the airport flying elsewhere, you can switch your holiday destinations last minute. Yipeee. I am really missing the point of this change?

Sorry, but a more accurrate translation would be that they will stop checking that ID and BP match at boarding. I think it's the check made a the desk, not onboard the plane.

You are most likely correct.

I have actually been flying with AB a couple of times recently and was surprised at first that they did not ask for an ID to be presented together with the BP at the gate upon boarding.

I also would feel better, if they would check the ID and the Boarding Pass like before. ^

What will happen to those with mobile BPs then? In the US, it is not a problem since TSA does a positive matching between the BP and the ID before allowing passengers to go through security, but I've noticed that in most schengen airports, you only show your BP at the security checkpoint. So, if I get my automatic BP, chances are someone else could fly with it?

I also would feel better, if they would check the ID and the Boarding Pass like before. ^

Why would you feel better? I don't see the point of changing because I didn't see the drawback of their practice, but I don't see any advantage anyway (except the marginal one about being stolen one's BP).

What will happen to those with mobile BPs then? In the US, it is not a problem since TSA does a positive matching between the BP and the ID before allowing passengers to go through security, but I've noticed that in most schengen airports, you only show your BP at the security checkpoint. So, if I get my automatic BP, chances are someone else could fly with it?

I'd say the risk is low. Unless it's a very short flight, you'll probably arrive at the airport, realize the problem and tell the airline... who will have no problem finding the thief since he's sitting at a designated seat on the plane.

Yay! So now we can sell all those non-transferable tickets, because they don't care who carries your boarding pass on to the plane! Good job, Air France!!!!!!!!!

Yay! So now we can sell all those non-transferable tickets, because they don't care who carries your boarding pass on to the plane! Good job, Air France!!!!!!!!!

But the name of the ticket does need to match the traveller at check-in if you have luggage to check-in. Otherwise it may probably work.

Gajan

What will happen to those with mobile BPs then? In the US, it is not a problem since TSA does a positive matching between the BP and the ID before allowing passengers to go through security, but I've noticed that in most schengen airports, you only show your BP at the security checkpoint. So, if I get my automatic BP, chances are someone else could fly with it?

at cdg 2e, airport security checked BP + ID. no need for ID on boarding cdg-mia. surprised at lack of thorough passport controls for exiting schengen....

at cdg 2e, airport security checked BP + ID. no need for ID on boarding cdg-mia. surprised at lack of passport controls for exiting schengen....

Err, if departing from 2E without a connection, I can't see how you can skip the passport check before reaching the security check, or am I missing something?

Err, if departing from 2E without a connection, I can't see how you can skip the passport controls check before reaching the security check, or am I missing something?

oops i mis-spoke: need to add a "thorough" between "of" and "passport"....

everytime i enter or leave schengen, border patrol usually asks for my residence permit. a week ago, they did not take more than a cursory glance at my us passport and waived me through.

So, harmonization is the sole benefit? I'll sleep better tonight knowing that aircraft boarding procedures are identical in the Schengen space...


No, it is not harmonisation. It is much more than that - it is the right of free movement of people, the right to travel throughout the Schengen area (regardless of the mode of transportation) with the same ease as you would have to travel within your town or within your country and it is about the fact that any suspension of that right needs to be justified by the authorities which want to implement it. Latest polls show that for most citizens, borderlessness is the single most important symbol of European integration and it is great that at last, France will stop lagging behind.

I can completely understand that you don't think people have much of a reason to hate this particular suspension of the Schengen agreements, but it was a suspension (based on Vigipirate) and as all suspensions needed to be positively justifiable and justified (as with all cases of identity checks by or on behalf of) public authorities. And I for one did not see a justification to it in the sense that there is no reason to conduct match checks when people board a plane and not when they board a train.

So here is at least one very happy (and unashamedly europhile) person about the change because it strengthens the right of free movement within the EU and has my heart-felt support as such.

So here is at least one very happy (and unashamedly europhile) person about the change because it strengthens the right of free movement within the EU and has my heart-felt support as such.

I don't have a problem with this decision by French police authorities for airline passenger transport within the Schengen area.

On the other hand, I did not feel that this cross-check was hindering me in any way from travelling within the EU, much less in any case than the passport checks required when entering the UK & the ROI.

much less in any case than the passport checks required when entering the UK & the ROI.or vice-versa when entering Schengen space from UK/Ireland, especially when the CDG PAF cannot be bothered to open EU nationals lanes.

No, it is not harmonisation. It is much more than that - it is the right of free movement of people, the right to travel throughout the Schengen area (regardless of the mode of transportation) with the same ease as you would have to travel within your town or within your country

These checks existed also for domestic flight, didn't they?

and it is about the fact that any suspension of that right needs to be justified by the authorities which want to implement it.


It was the airline, not the government, that did that check. I have no problem proving I am the owner of a plane ticket before boarding. Or, for that matter, proving I am the owner of a train ticket when onboard a train.


And I for one did not see a justification to it in the sense that there is no reason to conduct match checks when people board a plane and not when they board a train.

Actually, they can ask for ID if you're using a nominative train ticket. This wasn't suspended AFAIK.


So here is at least one very happy (and unashamedly europhile) person about the change because it strengthens the right of free movement within the EU and has my heart-felt support as such.

Of course, since it's after May 6th, everything the authorities do is a move for the best, [i]mais quand même... :D

I agree that checking ID wasn't improving security, though, and if this was the official reason for doing that, then it should be scrapped, not because it's problematic but because it's stupid to do it for this reason (as is most of the security theater at airport).

It was the airline, not the government, that did that check. It was carried out by the airline but was it mandated by public authorities or was it the airline's own initiative? That is not the same thing.

It was carried out by the airline but was it mandated by public authorities or was it the airline's own initiative? That is not the same thing.

I honestly don't know, but I can totally see the interest in the airline. They take effort to say tickets are non transferable, and if there is no longer BP/ID match done, how can they prevent people for reselling tickets, or people to credit their flights to another person account?

Edit: and if the point of the change is transfering ID-check-when-boarding to ID-check-at-the-security-check, well...

It was carried out by the airline but was it mandated by public authorities or was it the airline's own initiative? That is not the same thing.

new rules brought up by DGAC - french aviation authority

Could someone who has experienced the new system confirm the exact arrangements, especially for a domestic French flight? Where is the ID required?
1) You check in at the counter, do they ask for ID?
2) Do they require ID at security?
3) You board, do they require for ID?

If they still require ID at counter, what about OLCI? Would they check ID at boarding gate?

I know that BP checking when boarding the plane has been removed and that is great. It seems that we are now moving to a US-type procedure.

Could someone who has experienced the new system confirm the exact arrangements, especially for a domestic French flight? Where is the ID required?
1) You check in at the counter, do they ask for ID?
2) Do they require ID at security?
3) You board, do they require for ID?

If they still require ID at counter, what about OLCI? Would they check ID at boarding gate?

I know that BP checking when boarding the plane has been removed and that is great. It seems that we are now moving to a US-type procedure.

Jouy31 said it is applicable from may 15, so Tuesday ;)
Yesterday at ORY, it was as usual : ID check at check-in and at boarding (gate). At security, I never had to show ID at Parisian airports (but I know it happens at some others - I have NCE in mind).

new rules brought up by DGAC - french aviation authority

The rules about checks were decided by government, and DGAC was in charge of organising the implementation details of the measure (and empowered either airlines or security companies to conduct the identity match checks depending on alert levels and destination). The principle was solely decided by government in the context of the Plan Vigipirate. It is due to the fact that France never went below the yellow level from its very start (and in fact, never below red since July 2005). Details of what is to be done for each level are underneath the various links there: http://www.sgdsn.gouv.fr/site_rubrique98.html. The airlines were neither in demand nor responsible for the checks, and the same airlines simply do not carry the same checks when flying from other airports (e.g. if you fly BRU-LYS you don't need to show an identity document when boarding in Brussels but when you fly your return from LYS-BRU you do). Moreover, airlines would still be entirely able to do it at any stage if they wanted, be it at boarding gate, or even forcing people to go to the check in desk if that takes their fancy. They could even ask the passenger to show the credit card used to pay the ticket (several airlines do) or something else (within the law and within their clearly advertised conditions. Indeed, I am sure certain low costs airlines will make it a commercial rule for the flights they operate to avoid illicit transfers). What is changing on 15 May is simply what the Government is imposing.

The UK and the RoI are not signatories of the Schengen agreement and their exemption was confirmed in the Amsterdam treaty. They are, therefore, not affected by the Schengen definition of the free movement of people. France is, and is therefore tied by the general point that in principle, according to the Schengen agreement, you should be able to travel within and throughout the Schengen area without needing to carry or show id (a measure, which, of course, is again made less relevant in France by recent law saying that one is supposed to carry an id on French territory at all time).

I didn't mean to discuss my opinion of Schengen in principle (however strong), but I would say that on this measure, we French and UK residents are least well placed to comment: the UK is not in Schengen so we need id to go more or less anywhere anyway, and in France, we always had that obligation so took our id with us out of principle. However, I have had, for instance, Belgian cousins coming to France for the day or a weekend and missing their flight back because they did not have an id with them (and before someone says 'how silly of them', why should they since they knew they didn't need to fly out of BRU?) and needing to have it sent by courrier plus buy a new ticket. They were not happy.

Now, the rules become more transparent and whether people are in favour or against, make it clear what difference Schengen makes - If you fly within Schengen: (1) you do not need to show id unless the airline tells you they want you to for commercial reasons (but in which case they need to inform you clearly), (2) you do not need to reclear security when you have a connection if the terminal is equipped with a dedicated ex-Schengen transfer channel, which most large and medium sized airports within the area now have (3) conditions for passengers from/to non-Schengen countries do not change.

So here is at least one very happy (and unashamedly europhile) person about the change because it strengthens the right of free movement within the EU and has my heart-felt support as such.
No-ID-Control has nothing to do with "free movement". That has somtingh to do with Visa.

I don't like that there are no ID-Controls anyomore between borders. Now every criminal has "free movement".

France is, and is therefore tied by the general point that in principle, according to the Schengen agreement, you should be able to travel within and throughout the Schengen area without needing to carry or show id (a measure, which, of course, is again made less relevant in France by recent law saying that one is supposed to carry an id on French territory at all time).
However, I have had, for instance, Belgian cousins coming to France for the day or a weekend and missing their flight back because they did not have an id with them (and before someone says 'how silly of them', why should they since they knew they didn't need to fly out of BRU?) and needing to have it sent by courrier plus buy a new ticket. They were not happy.You need to distinguish the need to show ID at the border and the need to be able to establish ID while on the territory of the host state. The Schengen agreement might have suppressed the former but has not suppressed the latter and several EU Member States DO require you to either carry ID with you at all times or,if not, may, in certain circumstances, require you to establish ID and detain you until your identity has been ascertained. Besides, the authorities may actually need to establish that you have a right to free movement under the Schengen agreement. Third country nationals, for instance, must have travel documents when going from one Schengen state to another and their sojourn in the other state is limited in time.

Further, Schengen states can reintroduce border checks in certain situations. Unless one has a crystal ball, one cannot, therefore, assume when you go to another schengen state that ID controls on crossing the border will not temporarily be reintroduced.

With due respect to your cousins, it seems to me, therefore, that it is perhaps not very clever for someone to go to another Schengen State without carrying ID with them and especially not to a state like France which requires the carrying of ID at all times.

Perhaps understandable if you are just popping over the border from Mouscron to Lille for lunch or to do some shopping but not, imo, if you are going from Brussels to Nice or Perpignan.

The airlines were neither in demand nor responsible for the checks, and the same airlines simply do not carry the same checks when flying from other airports (e.g. if you fly BRU-LYS you don't need to show an identity document when boarding in Brussels but when you fly your return from LYS-BRU you do).

I have no problem with any country saying you can fly anonymously: I don't think that checking ID improves security in any way on a plane. On the other hand, why would an airport be the only place in a country where your ID can't be checked?

Schengen agreements provide for free travel within the Schengen area (no need for a passport, no need to ask for visa or respect 90-days stays, etc.) They don't states that you should be able to avoid ID checks within the Schengen area, just that border crossing shouldn't be treated differently than domestic travel. ID checks at airports are explicitely part of the Schengen Agreements :


The abolition of border control at internal borders shall not affect: [...]
(b) security checks on persons carried out at ports and airports by the competent authorities under the law of each Member State, by port or airport officials or carriers, provided that such checks are also carried out on persons travelling within a Member State;


It was negociated well before airport paranoia arose. The principle are within the Schengen Agreements themselves. Vigipirate is an implementation of them by the French government.


France is, and is therefore tied by the general point that in principle, according to the Schengen agreement, you should be able to travel within and throughout the Schengen area without needing to carry or show id (a measure, which, of course, is again made less relevant in France by recent law saying that one is supposed to carry an id on French territory at all time).

Well, I didn't read the Schengen agreement like you did.


(14) This Regulation is without prejudice to checks carried out under general police powers and security checks on persons identical to those carried out for domestic flights, to the possibilities for Member States to carry out exceptional checks on baggage in accordance with Council Regulation (EEC) No 3925/91 of 19 December 1991 concerning the elimination of controls and formalities applicable to the cabin and hold baggage of persons taking an intra-Community flight and the baggage of persons making an intra-Community sea crossing [5], and to national law on carrying travel or identity documents or to the requirement that persons notify the authorities of their presence on the territory of the Member State in question.


If national laws requires carrying ID, it is in concordance with the Schengen agreement. You're free to travel, but not necessarily to travel anonymously.

I can see that you object strongly to ID check, but this has nothing to do with Schengen. I strongly object to the liquid and gel silliness but I won't claim it's against the principle of free circulation of goods.

and in France, we always had that obligation so took our id with us out of principle.

Technically, you need to be able to prove your ID, not carry ID. Call for witness is an established way of doing that according to French law (but I've never seen anyone doing it except for children).



However, I have had, for instance, Belgian cousins coming to France for the day or a weekend and missing their flight back because they did not have an id with them (and before someone says 'how silly of them', why should they since they knew they didn't need to fly out of BRU?) and needing to have it sent by courrier plus buy a new ticket. They were not happy.

According to Brussels Airport website (http://www.brusselsairport.be/fr/blog_bru/june_2011/16978/) :


En période d'affluence, il faut prévoir plus de temps pour trouver un parking, passer par les comptoirs de ticketing et d'enregistrement, se soumettre aux contrôles d'identité et de sûreté et embarquer à bord de l'avion.


They are speaking of ID checks at security. I am confused, now: are they checking ID there? If so, what is the difference between checking there and checking at boarding?

Brussels Airport FAQ (http://www.brusselsairport.be/fr/contact/faq_all/faq029/) states :


Selon votre destination, il vous faudra une carte d'identité ou un passeport. Pour certains pays, il faut y ajouter un visa.
Attention: L'attestation de perte de carte d'identité n'est pas un document valable pour voyager!


Your relatives should have complied. I am not calling them silly, but the FAQ clearly doesn't advise traveling without any ID for any destination.


Now, the rules become more transparent and whether people are in favour or against, make it clear what difference Schengen makes - If you fly within Schengen: (1) you do not need to show id unless the airline tells you they want you to for commercial reasons (but in which case they need to inform you clearly), (2) you do not need to reclear security when you have a connection if the terminal is equipped with a dedicated ex-Schengen transfer channel, which most large and medium sized airports within the area now have (3) conditions for passengers from/to non-Schengen countries do not change.

This is not my reading of Article 21 and the preamble I quoted above.

On the tangeant point of reclearing security, is there a list of non-compliant airport? It could be a useful FT resource.

Now, the rules become more transparent and whether people are in favour or against, make it clear what difference Schengen makes - If you fly within Schengen: (1) you do not need to show id unless the airline tells you they want you to for commercial reasons (but in which case they need to inform you clearly), (2) you do not need to reclear security when you have a connection if the terminal is equipped with a dedicated ex-Schengen transfer channel, which most large and medium sized airports within the area now have (3) conditions for passengers from/to non-Schengen countries do not change.

On security, this is NOT a Schengen issue, but an EU/EEA-wide one: if you boarded at an airport deemed safe, which includes, in principle (save particularly exceptions to be made where a problem exists in a given location), pretty much all commercial EU airports whether within Schengen or not, there is no requirement for re-clearing security.

The problem, however, is that relatively few airports have set up traffic routes to allow for passengers from non-Schengen EU/EEA airports to be segregated from other non-EEA passengers and therefore de facto force the former to go through security again. The same is true in reverse in, eg., LHR (and other UK airports) which forces non-domestic EU-originating passengers to go through security again even though they should not have to simply because there is no segregation between EU and other countries in passenger traffic routes at LHR.

Took an AF flight this morning out of CDG, no ID control at gate, but neither at security. So, theoretically, anybody could have travelled with my BP (OLCI, no checked bags)

Good.

Good.
I don't think this is good. For our security this is a real bay news if now every criminal can fly with Air France if there are no ID-Checks at all.:td:
Also everyone can now sell tickets on eBay.

Tickets won't be able to be sold any more than they can be now; tickets are non-transferable, and any such tickets listed on Ebay could, as they would be right now, taken down.

I fail to see why "criminals" are of any relevance here. As long as a person is not barred from flying, or is not supposed to be in jail somewhere, are they not allowed to travel freely around the Schengen Zone (whether by air or surface) just like any other European citizen?

They still at all times may ask you for an ID. I doubt anybody would risk having to buy a new ticket on the spot, just to save a few bucks and get a ticket off eBay :)

This is absolutely fantastic news. One more unnecessary control gone away. FOr those who ask what the benefits are:


For passengers: less hassle when boarding and faster boarding. If implemented properly (like other European airlines already do it) there can be turnstyles at the gates where people merely scan the bar code on their BP and walk through. No more need for human intervention, for fiddling with ID in hand/poecket, no more lengthy matching
For airlines: shorter boarding times = shorter turnaround times. Maybe we'll even see priority boarding for domestic flights in France which despite long turnaround times so far has not existed because of mystical "operational reasons"
For airlines: less staff needed, which is a cost saving potential


Other elements like "someone else can take my ticket" can be neglected. If you lose your BP you can - with your ID - prove that you are the person supposed to travel and get a new BP, this way also uncovering the person who took your place/seat. Also "reselling of tickets" seems not to be an issue. There are other airlines that do not require ID check when boarding, they do not have that problem. And the "criminals" argument lacks any foundation and is, excuse my French, silly. If a criminal that is not supposed to fly uses his real name he will be identified by computers who match his name against a no fly list. If he uses a false name then he gets through anyway. If need be he could also fake an ID. Also, the people checking the ID - usually airline-own or airline-paid staff - cannot do anything. They only check name on BP vs name on ID. Without having a list who is a criminal or not anyone gets through. And should they by chance find a notorious criminal without looking him up in a database - e.g. a pax presenting ticket and ID on the name of Osama Bin Laden - then there's not a lot they can do. They have no rights to arrest that person for instance.

Thus, as I have been arguing since years, these controls are silly, unnecessary and a hassle for no real benefit. Glad to see common sense has finally taken over.

Also, just wanted to confirm earlier posts who make a difference between no need to show ID at country borders within Schengen (because there are no more fix border posts) and the need to show an ID to show who you are. The border controls were to check not only who you are but whether your papers allowed you to enter the other country. The ID checks at boarding are to check whether you are the person whose name is written on the BP.

Airport security is yet another thing: the entire EU as well as non EU countries that are part of Schengen (e.g. Norway, Switzerland) as well as in some cases the USA are considered "clean", and transfers between these countries can happen without further security control. But that has NOTHING to do with ID checks or border control. In theory one could transfer in GVA from a flight from London to a flight to ROme without security check. But there would be a border control because GVA would be the entry point into the Schengen area.

As a matter of fact the majority of European hub airports are laid out in a way that allows for transfers between clean countries without further security checks:

CPH - yes
all German airports with the exception of Berlin - yes
all Swiss airports - yes
all Austrian airports - yes
Madrid - yes
Barcelona - yes
Lisboa - yes
Milan - I think so
Prague - yes
Brussels - yes
AMS - only between Schengen flights AFAIK
Some terminals at CDG (e.g. 2D, 2F - but what about 2E e.g. for a flight arriving from the UK?)
London LHR T5

Notable exceptions:

London LHR other terminals and between terminals
Paris CDG T1 - the geniuses at ADP laid the airport out in a way that does not make it possible with the exception of transfers within Satellite 7
AMS - for transfers from clean countries to non-Schengen countries, but only as long as there is no centralized security control which I understand will happen soon

What is the chance we'll see autogates like Lufthansa?

And the "criminals" argument lacks any foundation and is, excuse my French, silly.
No, it's not silly.
My English is not the best, but I try my best so you maybe can understand me:
Look: If someone does a crime and then tries to leave the country by plane, a simple ID-Check would stop the criminal from flying away because the Name of the passenger would be on a ban-list which also can be updatet automaticly. This can all done by autogates.
Without an ID-Check its only easier for criminals to travel, because now they can buy tickets with a fantasy name.

"less hassle when boarding and faster boarding"
It only takes a sec to show your ID. You have to show you BP anyway. In Germany the ID has a chip in it (and I think in France too), so a computer can do the ID check.

In Germany in every Supermarket you have to show your ID if you look young and want to buy alc. or cigaretts. Even if your are on a train with a month-card you have to show your ID.
So it should be no real problem to show your ID on an Airport.

Wouldnt it be nicer, if you can travel only with your ID-card and without a BP! :confused:

Look: If someone does a crime and then tries to leave the country by plane, a simple ID-Check would stop the criminal from flying away because the Name of the passenger would be on a ban-list which also can be updatet automaticly.

With all due respect, if someone does a crime and tries to escape by air, I think they will just get on the first flights that they can, days if not months before any police force would confirm a criminal's identity, update listings and arrange for people not to be able to fly off. If someone does something really bad, his/her identity is confirmed, and it is suspected that the person will try to flee, there is still absolutely nothing preventing police forces from creating an alert, sending it to police forces in border areas, stations, ports, and airports, diffuse the person's photos and characteristics and hope for an arrest. Indeed, I can confirm that French airports are still full of police personnel and I suspect that many criminals would choose some other less conspicuous escape route. European police forces do not rely on airlines to do their jobs, gate agents are undoubtedly not trained to spot fake ids which the criminals you mention would undoubtedly use in recent years to travel on fake identity, and I genuinely think that the change makes absolutely no difference in that particular respect.

You are absolutely right that there are many occasions in life when one is asked to show id, and many others when one has to go through security. Everything is possible in theory. In some countries you have to pass security to enter bus or train stations or even shopping malls, which undoubtedly lowers the likeliness of terrorist attacks in these places, in others, policemen can ask random passer by's on the street to show their id which undoubtedly results in some 'wanted' people being spotted and arrested or illegal immigrants being found, in others you also need to show id when you leave individual cities which presumably prevent wanted people from disappearing and becoming much harder to find.

There is no limit to what can be proposed in the name of security, but ultimately, public forces need to arbitrate based on a number of criteria including efficiency, marginal benefits of each additional measure, the right of people to live as normal and undisrupted a life as possible, cost, etc. My personal perception is that removing this particular control is an improvement and very much goes in the right direction. I am yet to hear many people who think that US airports are dangerously insecure yet both security and id checks for domestic flights are much laxer than what we have in Europe.

No, it's not silly.
My English is not the best, but I try my best so you maybe can understand me:
Look: If someone does a crime and then tries to leave the country by plane, a simple ID-Check would stop the criminal from flying away because the Name of the passenger would be on a ban-list which also can be updatet automaticly. This can all done by autogates.
Without an ID-Check its only easier for criminals to travel, because now they can buy tickets with a fantasy name.

Checking IDs at boarding does about as much to security as putting your toothpaste or your less-than-100ml-portion of Nutella in a transparent plastic bag and put it on the Xray separately.

Let's work logic for the criminals and see which ones you can really capture with that medthod. Let's assume someone has committed a crime and has not already fled the country before being identified and all databases updated (which already eliminates many criminals).


Let's assume he wants to leave the country by plane. As soon as he makes a booking under his real name a computerised non-fly list would identify him and he could not fly.
Let's assume his not caught by the no fly list and wants to leave the country to a non-Schengen country. In that case he needs to go through passport control which is done by border police. There he can either i) be stupid and use his real ID and real name on the ticket -> border police will detain him ii) be stupid and use his real ID and a ticket with a false name -> border police can detain him iii) be a committed criminal and get a fake ID and also use that fake name on the ticket -> border police may spot the fake and detain him. Thus, 80% of those cases would be identified by the border police, either because of the name match on the real ID or because of the fake ID
Let's assume he made it through the no fly list and through border police. He then goes to the gate, where he has to show his ID and ticket. Again, i) real name on ID and real name on BP -> there's no way gate agents can tell he's a criminal -> happy flight ii) fake name on ID and fake name on BP -> there's no way the gate agent can tell a fake ID -> happy flight
Let's assume he wants to flee to a Schengen country. Easy, take a car and drive across the border, there is no border police and no ID check. However, this being Schengen he can just as well be detained there.
If he still wants to leave the country by plane: i) use real name -> no fly list, or making it past that see above, he'll be facing gate agents that can neither identify him nor can they detain him (they could downgrade him or lose his luggage ;)) or ii) use fake name -> same story, gate agents don't know and couldn't do anything anyway.


What this logic shows is that the way to capture criminals is not to have their ID checked against their boarding pass by people who have no way of telling who is a criminal and even if they could tell would be powerless to act. Criminals must be identified, hunted and detained by institutions and people that have the skills and rights to do so. Airlines neither have the skills nor the right to do that. Conclusion: checking IDs at boarding is senseless.


"less hassle when boarding and faster boarding"
It only takes a sec to show your ID.

??? Taking passport out of your briefcase/pocket, giving it to the gate agent, who may have to open the passport, find the right page, then will look in your passport for the name to match (not all countries' passports are laid out the same way), then look for the matching name on the BP... 5-10 seconds. Even if it was 5 seconds. Take a planeload of 120 passengers. 5 seconds * 120 passengers = 10 minutes lost. 10 minutes more on the ground for a plane is a lot of money.

You have to show you BP anyway.

Not sure what you mean by "anyway". You do realise that BP and ID are two distinct physical objects? So showing one does not necessarily entail showing the other in the same movement. If by "anyway" you mean "you have to stop at the gate agent anyway" then, also the argument doesn't hold. Either there are automatic self-boarding gates or there is a gate agent, who would merely hold your BP under the scanner at the boarding gate. Thus it's either no stop at all at the gate agent or a much faster operation.

In Germany the ID has a chip in it (and I think in France too), so a computer can do the ID check.

Because of certain events in 20th century history not everybody in Europe has a German ID. Nor a French for that matter. Take a big hub airport like CDG and any flight has passengers from France, the destination country, USA, Japan, some African countries, Brazil, any other European country, China - you name it!

In Germany in every Supermarket you have to show your ID if you look young and want to buy alc. or cigaretts.

Err, yes, and in other countries as well. But what has that got to do with flying? You mean the analogy is that only certain people are entitled to certain products, such as cigarettes or a certain airfare? Two big differences, one in objective, the other one practical. Objective: checking ID for buying cigarettes is to prevent under age people from smoking (let's not discuss if this method works or not), whereas in the case of flying the objective can only be commercial by the airline to prevent people from selling their ticket to someone else. Practical: once the age check is done for cigarettes the "prevention" is over. For tickets there is little chance for a grey market. For it to happen on a large scale it would be widely known and could then easily be stopped. Or it happens on a much smaller scale, but no "broker" would take the risk to buy tickets and only have a small under-cover market to which he can sell them. If it happens within a family or similar this is really very small scale and frankly, if I was the airline I wouldn't care if I fill my plane with daddy or son, the hypothetical loss is much smaller than the non-hypothetical money it costs me to check IDs and to have longer turnaround times.

Even if your are on a train with a month-card you have to show your ID.

It is not because one idiotic solution exists than other idiocies are justified. Train operators would just need to put pictures on their cards, end of story.

So it should be no real problem to show your ID on an Airport.

We may differ on what a "problem" is but since there are zero benefits but huge costs for airlines and it's a hassle for passengers there's no reason to keep it.

Wouldnt it be nicer, if you can travel only with your ID-card and without a BP! :confused:

Yes. But the world has moved in that direction anyway, where your smartphone more and more becomes a holder of ID for all sorts of commercial and non-commercial interaction. Having the BP on your smartphone already brings things down to a one-device solution.

EDIT: just read orbitmics's post. Absolutely concur with what he writes.

Look: If someone does a crime and then tries to leave the country by plane, a simple ID-Check would stop the criminal from flying away because the Name of the passenger would be on a ban-list which also can be updatet automaticly. This can all done by autogates.
Without an ID-Check its only easier for criminals to travel, because now they can buy tickets with a fantasy name.


The humble Air France cabin attendant/gate agent has far more pressing worries than policing Europe's skies. Like making sure that the passenger has boarded the correct aircraft, and that the passenger's ID matches with the name on the boarding pass (even if that last task has now been removed).

Air France staff are not, and should never be, the last (or only?) line of defence in apprehending fleeing criminals. To suggest that boarding ID checks are a vital security feature, and should be retained for their usefulness in detaining fleeing criminals, is either naive or laughable.

As suggested above, if the criminal is "fleeing" to another Schengen jurisdiction (which isn't really fleeing at all) then they could just board a train, where ID is never required, or live up to their reputation by stealing a car and driving over a national border. If they do try to leave Schengen, well they will have to submit themselves to passport control (I believe this to be true at most exit ports, anyway).

But the hardened criminal will always be able to slip away unnoticed - whether by land crossing, or piloting a small craft (whether by air or by sea) to an unpoliced entry point in an non-EU country, from where they can make good their escape, foiling Air France and Interpol in the process!!!!

Loosely translated:

effective May 15th, cross-check of boarding pass and ID documents when boarding the plane will be discontinued at French airports, for all AF operated flights, including those operated for Air France by Regional, Brit Air, Cityjet and Airlinair.

So today the 18th, I flew FSC-ORY : business as usual : ID check at check-in and at boarding...:rolleyes:

EDIT: just read orbitmics's post. Absolutely concur with what he writes.

And vice versa ;)

I don't think this is good. For our security this is a real bay news if now every criminal can fly with Air France if there are no ID-Checks at all.:td:
Also everyone can now sell tickets on eBay.

Remember that AF is not the first one doing that now.

Lufthansa has been doing this for ages.
Same as AirBerlin.

And others too...

I think the risk of people buying their tickets on eBay is relatively low. Not only because you can't trust your seller to only sell his ticket once... The beauty of eTix.

As suggested above, if the criminal is "fleeing" to another Schengen jurisdiction (which isn't really fleeing at all) then they could just board a train, where ID is never required, or live up to their reputation by stealing a car and driving over a national border. If they do try to leave Schengen, well they will have to submit themselves to passport control (I believe this to be true at most exit ports, anyway).

Or show a fake ID. It's not like AF gate agents are able to identify a fake Agluchistani passport from a true, legitimate one. They only check that names match. ID checks by AF don't improve security in any way --- same as boarding a train. So are losing nothing (and gaining nothing) by not doing it, securitywise.

My lack of interest in this change is that I don't see why there was so much outcry on that, because for the pax the hassle is very limited. 10 minutes added for boarding 120 pax, in the worse case scenario were there is only one agent checking. My time is precious but not that precious, especially considering the many other sources of delays airlines impose on us. We'll see if after this change is implemented, AF effectively reduce boarding time and time limit to make it to the gate.

Granted it could help the airlines finances if they find a way to make good use of these 10 minutes of plane use per flight.

Or show a fake ID. It's not like AF gate agents are able to identify a fake Agluchistani passport from a true, legitimate one. They only check that names match. ID checks by AF don't improve security in any way --- same as boarding a train. So are losing nothing (and gaining nothing) by not doing it, securitywise.

+1

Just flew UX (AF code share on UX metal) from CDG to VLC and AGP to CDG.

ID checks were performed at the gate for both flights.

Am I assuming correctly that the hostesses will continue to check our BP's at the door of the airplane? That part I like as a formal welcoming to the flight.

10 minutes added for boarding 120 pax, in the worse case scenario

10 minutes out of 35 minutes rotation time (medium haul flight) is a lot!

10 minutes out of 35 minutes rotation time (medium haul flight) is a lot!

It doesn't matter to most of thepassengers, who either are connecting and are more concerned about the last call time than by the boarding time window, or are infrequent flyers who are at the airport litterally hours before the flight, or are checking luggage and thus need to be present earlier...

Plus, the delay incurred by checking ID might not be a 100% loss. Domestic flight by Lufthansa boards 30 minutes before departure (from an old BP I had, I am not sure it's the current time). Domestic flight by Air France boards 30 minutes before departure. Despite gaining time by not checking ID, Lufthansa still need a 30 minutes window to between the start of the boarding process and take-off.

Am I assuming correctly that the hostesses will continue to check our BP's at the door of the airplane? That part I like as a formal welcoming to the flight.

Nope, AF stopped doing this quite some time ago already, on European flights at least.

Nope, AF stopped doing this quite some time ago already, on European flights at least.

I think you are right for Euro flights. I'm taking one tomorrow so I'll try to remember. However I'm pretty sure they still do on Intercontinental flights. The other FB airlines, KL and KQ also check BP's at the door on long haul flights.

I think you are right for Euro flights. I'm taking one tomorrow so I'll try to remember. However I'm pretty sure they still do on Intercontinental flights. The other FB airlines, KL and KQ also check BP's at the door on long haul flights.

For long haul they have to, in order to direct you to the right cabin. :)

I think you are right for Euro flights. I'm taking one tomorrow so I'll try to remember. However I'm pretty sure they still do on Intercontinental flights. The other FB airlines, KL and KQ also check BP's at the door on long haul flights.

I guess they do that because many are confused by the seats configuration and wouldn't know which aisle to take (most seem confused in a single-aisle aircraft and start looking for their 33C seat at the beginning of the plane, but that's another problem...) Or don't know if they need to turn right or left. I don't think it has anything to do with pretend security. I don't find that very welcoming, but apparently you like it, so more power to you.

(...) I don't find that very welcoming, but apparently you like it, so more power to you.

I would share stimpy's fondness for BP checks; in the sense that if one is a FF, an eye contact with the (professional) purser who notices your "elite" status may make you feel recognised and ... welcome <blush>.

I would share stimpy's fondness for BP checks; in the sense that if one is a FF, an eye contact with the (professional) purser who notices your "elite" status may make you feel recognised and ... welcome <blush>.

Why do I have to show a paper to be greeted??:confused: I go in to shops, restaurants, meetings, whatever, and people can be warm and welcoming. What is that pretext of needing to bother me to free up one hand and get out my phone on which I have my BP, needing to unlock it, click on the application, make sure that the screen doesn't turn - and all of that for info which I had shown 4 meters earlier? It's bothering me more than anything else. I like a warm welcome, but not if I have to be inconvencied to obtain it.

And as for recognizing the status pax: in >10 years of Platinum I have been greeted exactly zero times by my name, and other information on my BP has been ignored such as the fact that I was sitting in row 2 and the chap who just passed in front of me was sitting behind the curtain but still put his camping gear in the baggage lockers on top of the row I was sitting on.

Let's not get absurd and elevate AF's control-nonsense which exists for falsely-understood security pretexts into a high level of customer service.

On the other hand, another airline that I am flying very often has found other ways to spot their top tier customers. In those cases where I still hold a BP in my hand (rare) they somehow have a trained eye and spot the status from far away; or they see the baggage tag and realize that the seat that is going to be occupied by the top tier customer is still empty - so they venture out and ask whether it's him; and in other cases they just give a normal warm welcome and then later on come to my seat and greet me by name.

Glad they stopped that on shorthaul. As for longhaul, indeed most airlines look at BPs at the entry, but not as a condition to step on board (like AF did and still does on longhaul) but as a courtesy for lost pax. But if you arrive with a look on your face of someone who seems to know his way around and tell them "I am in 4A, I know it's to my left here along this aisle" they'll happily let you through. Not sure about AF longhaul these days.

Airport security is yet another thing: the entire EU as well as non EU countries that are part of Schengen (e.g. Norway, Switzerland) as well as in some cases the USA are considered "clean", and transfers between these countries can happen without further security control. But that has NOTHING to do with ID checks or border control. In theory one could transfer in GVA from a flight from London to a flight to ROme without security check. But there would be a border control because GVA would be the entry point into the Schengen area.

all Swiss airports - yes
I am glad to hear that it is now possible to transit at ZRH from a "clean" country to another one without having to go through security again. It has been a while since I flew via ZRH but it certainly was the case that you had to go through security again when arriving/departing from/to LHR. Last time I transited via ZRH to go to LON a little over a year ago I had to go through security again and this was coming from ... GVA which, unless I am mistaken, would normally be regarded as a "clean" departure airport at ZRH. ;)

That was also true in Milan (both airports). Ditto for AMS. I seem to recall it being the same as VIE but it has been some time since I flew via there so maybe my memory is failing me. To be honest, my recollection is that the vast majority of European airports only allow to connect without clearing security again for flights coming from Schengen rather than for flights from a clean country simply because the way they have configured departures and arrivals do not allow for distinct flows from non-Schengen clean countries with some exceptions, such as MUC.

Certainly my expectation as someone who regularly originate in LON is that I will be expected to clear security again at the connection point and I am pleasantly surprised when this does not happen.

I wonder how the "clean country" concept will survive one of them defecting in the War on Liquids...

I wonder how the "clean country" concept will survive one of them defecting in the War on Liquids...

:D:D:D

I am glad to hear that it is now possible to transit at ZRH from a "clean" country to another one without having to go through security again. It has been a while since I flew via ZRH but it certainly was the case that you had to go through security again when arriving/departing from/to LHR. Last time I transited via ZRH to go to LON a little over a year ago I had to go through security again and this was coming from ... GVA which, unless I am mistaken, would normally be regarded as a "clean" departure airport at ZRH. ;)

That was also true in Milan (both airports). Ditto for AMS. I seem to recall it being the same as VIE but it has been some time since I flew via there so maybe my memory is failing me. To be honest, my recollection is that the vast majority of European airports only allow to connect without clearing security again for flights coming from Schengen rather than for flights from a clean country simply because the way they have configured departures and arrivals do not allow for distinct flows from non-Schengen clean countries with some exceptions, such as MUC.

Certainly my expectation as someone who regularly originate in LON is that I will be expected to clear security again at the connection point and I am pleasantly surprised when this does not happen.

In ZRH this is the case since the opening of Dock B which has dual use (Schengen and non-Schengen) gates which can be set up in a way to channel transfer pax through security or not.

There is however one inconsistency: flights arriving at Dock E which is most of the longhaul flights and also carriers like BA. Most of the traffic there is from non-clean countries, but also some clean ones like USA and UK. Thus: if you fly from London on Swiss you use Dock B and you won't have to go through security again as a transfer pax. If you land on BA and are connecting you will have to go through security. Same for flights from US: some are arriving in Dock B (no security), some in Dock E (security).

Why do I have to show a paper to be greeted??:confused: I go in to shops, restaurants, meetings, whatever, and people can be warm and welcoming.

I'm with you on the BP check when entering the plane. Interestingly enough, there is a mention of it on the BA board. Apparently, they do it as well, and it irks half the people, while the other half is totally in favour of it.


And as for recognizing the status pax: in >10 years of Platinum I have been greeted exactly zero times by my name,


Actually, I find that a good thing. "Bienvenue à bord Monsieur" is much better and classier than "Bienvenue à bord, Monsieur Richelieu". I fail to feel recognized when the person in front of them has just read my name on a piece of paper (3 years olds can do that, they learn to read the name of their comrades in school on little bits of paper, they should be told they're having their first vocational training lesson in case they decide to work in the travel & hospitality industry...)

I've been called by my name without being irked once in the last 10 years... By a flight attendant that was working on the morning flight I took twice a week, for a long time. At the 6th or 7th time, when I saw him on another route, he greeted me genuinely, asking if I was on holiday today. It was not forced, it was courteous, it was good service. End result: happy customer. If a FA mechanically read my name to say hello, end result: nothing (at worst, a loss of time while they do the reading, or they can butcher the name).


Let's not get absurd and elevate AF's control-nonsense which exists for falsely-understood security pretexts into a high level of customer service.


According to BA's employees on the BA board, they are required to do that by government rules, however silly. I don't know if it's the same for AF because they stopped to do that at some point...


and greet me by name.


I didn't want to offend anyone who is pleased to be greeted by name, of course! Just to say it's not my cup of tea.


Not sure about AF longhaul these days.

I found that especially rude when boarding is done through the door dividing business class and economy, because it makes this check feel like they're checking if pax are not trying to sneak into a business seat...

Actually, I find that a good thing. "Bienvenue à bord Monsieur" is much better and classier than "Bienvenue à bord, Monsieur Richelieu". I fail to feel recognized when the person in front of them has just read my name on a piece of paper (3 years olds can do that, they learn to read the name of their comrades in school on little bits of paper, they should be told they're having their first vocational training lesson in case they decide to work in the travel & hospitality industry...)


+1. And how about that, the 5 minutes saved by the CDC by not having to look at passengers BP's (i.e. not having to wait for passengers who have put it aside and don't remember which pocket/bag it is in to find it, not having to tell those who show the 'wrong' boarding card, e.g. that for their connecting flight that they need to find the right one, etc) can be perfectly well used by the said CDG to study the passengers' manifest which includes every minute detail about passengers' status, corporate contracts and more, and offer a particularly warm welcome when they reach the 'right' seat. Most of the worthwhile acknowledgements of status I have ever had on any airline was when I was at my seat and kindly greeted (whether by name or not I couldn't care less) or thanked or asked if I needed anything by pursers rather than when entering the plane whereby I believe that everyone should get a nice smile and hello regardless of their status.

Indeed on my AMS-LYS flight today there was no BP check. Shame that.

What is that pretext of needing to bother me to free up one hand and get out my phone on which I have my BP, needing to unlock it, click on the application, make sure that the screen doesn't turn - and all of that for info which I had shown 4 meters earlier? It's bothering me more than anything else. I like a warm welcome, but not if I have to be inconvencied to obtain it.

Well if you have that much difficulty with your mobile BP, perhaps you should switch back to paper? ;)

I don't have any problem with mobile BP's or paper and like I said above I like the greeting. It is a part of French culture that you have a respectful greeting with the people serving you. If you just rush past the staff to your seat without even looking at them, it just isn't quite civilized.

There is however one inconsistency: flights arriving at Dock E which is most of the longhaul flights and also carriers like BA. Most of the traffic there is from non-clean countries, but also some clean ones like USA and UK.That is pretty much the problem at most EU airports: flights from UK/IRL (or US) typically arrive in an area where most flights are from unclean origins with no dedicated channel and therefore are end up "polluted" by mixing with pax from those "unclean" origins.

I suspect, though, that the overwhelming majority of BA pax in ZRH will terminate there so the system will work for the majority of ex-LON pax as most ZRH-transiting traffic will typically be on LX.

I don't have any problem with mobile BP's or paper and like I said above I like the greeting. It is a part of French culture that you have a respectful greeting with the people serving you. If you just rush past the staff to your seat without even looking at them, it just isn't quite civilized.But, as others have pointed out, they do not need to see your BP to greet you, anymore than the boulangère needs to see your passport or ID card before welcoming you when you go and buy your morning croissants.

But, as others have pointed out, they do not need to see your BP to greet you, anymore than the boulangère needs to see your passport or ID card before welcoming you when you go and buy your morning croissants.

It's not to force the staff to greet the pax, it's to "force" the pax to greet the staff. One of many psychological benefits is that the pax are less likely to be belligerent if they exchange a kind greeting with the staff. That's sort of why the custom developed in most cultures centuries ago.

And when greeted by the staff, or when they say goodbyes at the end of the flight, I can answer them without checking their ID :)

I assume they don't remember when deplaning who is who, and the goodbye session is as cordial as a welcome could be. Most people are civil and answer the goodbye (or so I assume, as I tend to be among the first to leave the plane... but I don't think rude people cluster at one end of the plane ;) )

I'll make on other psychological point. I think one of the reasons people don't like the BP at the door is that we resent being treated like children. Like we are too stupid to board the correct airplane or find the correct seat. I know I hate the way US airlines treat passengers like idiot children and it is one of the reasons I go out of my way to avoid flying US airlines. But I don't think we should extend that feeling to the way that airlines like AF and BA handle the greeting at the door. It doesn't have to be demeaning.

+1. And how about that, the 5 minutes saved by the CDC by not having to look at passengers BP's (i.e. not having to wait for passengers who have put it aside and don't remember which pocket/bag it is in to find it, not having to tell those who show the 'wrong' boarding card, e.g. that for their connecting flight that they need to find the right one, etc) can be perfectly well used by the said CDG to study the passengers' manifest which includes every minute detail about passengers' status, corporate contracts and more, and offer a particularly warm welcome when they reach the 'right' seat. Most of the worthwhile acknowledgements of status I have ever had on any airline was when I was at my seat and kindly greeted (whether by name or not I couldn't care less) or thanked or asked if I needed anything by pursers rather than when entering the plane whereby I believe that everyone should get a nice smile and hello regardless of their status.

Indeed the very best solution. BTW that is how that "other airline" does it. Very pleasant.

Well if you have that much difficulty with your mobile BP, perhaps you should switch back to paper? ;)

So why should I as the customer change the way I get my boarding pass only to please a nonsensical procedure by the airline? Not quite customer-centric, is it?

I don't have any problem with mobile BP's or paper and like I said above I like the greeting. It is a part of French culture that you have a respectful greeting with the people serving you. If you just rush past the staff to your seat without even looking at them, it just isn't quite civilized.

You misunderstood my point. It was not about greeting or not (and if you knew me in person you'd know that usually it is me who greets them first). It was whether or not I need to show a paper to be greeted. I greet them - do they show me their ID? And how about saying aurevoir at the exit, do I have to show my BP again not to be ignored?

Whoever came up with that "we need to show a BP to be greeted in a civilized way" was looking for a lame pretext for a nonsensical process.

In my days of heavy AF flying I sometimes made it a sport to show BP from a different flight. It worked 90%. But still I was greeted. So much for security and for civilized greeting.

It's not to force the staff to greet the pax, it's to "force" the pax to greet the staff. One of many psychological benefits is that the pax are less likely to be belligerent if they exchange a kind greeting with the staff. That's sort of why the custom developed in most cultures centuries ago.Ah, sorry. I get you now. But still, I would agree with Richelieu, SG and others: you do not need to show your BP to answer a good/morning/afternoon/evening/Welcome on board. And if you are not going to answer this, you probably still would not answer even if you had to show your BP anyway.

That is pretty much the problem at most EU airports: flights from UK/IRL (or US) typically arrive in an area where most flights are from unclean origins with no dedicated channel and therefore are end up "polluted" by mixing with pax from those "unclean" origins.


Given that DUB (partially) failed an airport security audit last week (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0515/dublin-airport-security-eu-audit.html), arrivals from DUB are to be considered "unclean" when arriving for transfer at all other EU airports, and may now be required to clear security again at the point of transfer if it was previously possible to transfer without further checks. Business & Finance magazine notes that it could take up to two months to rectify the highlighted problems (http://www.businessandfinance.ie/cat_news_detail.jsp?itemID=4386), the exact nature of which has not been revealed (though it seems that the suspension of aircraft searches is one).



It's not to force the staff to greet the pax, it's to "force" the pax to greet the staff. One of many psychological benefits is that the pax are less likely to be belligerent if they exchange a kind greeting with the staff. That's sort of why the custom developed in most cultures centuries ago.

Interesting point...but I'm not entirely swayed by it. I always keep my boarding pass in my hand until I've taken my seat, but I'm used to the request to see a boarding pass at the door. Others, though, often seem to have managed to lose their boarding pass by the time they reach the door, and it can sometimes take them ages to find it. I've seen quite a few heated exchanges - "But I'm with them! I know my seat number! Why do you need to see it? This is ridiculous! They don't do this in the States!" - with the harried cabin crew.

A passenger who is, or is inclined to be, belligerent is not going to be "softened" by some light, friendly banter on boarding - when they often turn it into an argument!

That said, it often amazes me, when watching people board, when the stewards/stewardesses dotted around the cabin say a big friendly cheery "hello" to the passengers walking past, just how many of those passengers totally blank them, and give no sign of even registering the greeting, let alone returning it.

I've seen quite a few heated exchanges - "But I'm with them! I know my seat number! Why do you need to see it? This is ridiculous! They don't do this in the States!" - with the harried cabin crew.

A passenger who is, or is inclined to be, belligerent is not going to be "softened" by some light, friendly banter on boarding - when they often turn it into an argument!

Yes, America is the exception to most every rule. :rolleyes:

That said, it often amazes me, when watching people board, when the stewards/stewardesses dotted around the cabin say a big friendly cheery "hello" to the passengers walking past, just how many of those passengers totally blank them, and give no sign of even registering the greeting, let alone returning it.

Yes, there are rude people who think themselves to be too important to return greetings; I don't think they'll be less rude if they have to stop for the BP check...


A passenger who is, or is inclined to be, belligerent is not going to be "softened" by some light, friendly banter on boarding - when they often turn it into an argument!

Even if they are not belligerent, they could be miffed. When the crew suspects them to try to sneak on a plane where they don't belong, it's not welcoming, it's offensive, same as border checks when entering a country, except they might have a reason to check, while upon entering the plane, they are just double checking what was checked 50 meters ago. One could cut the crew some slack because they're just following orders, or construe that as a way to help passengers to their seats, but some can express unhappiness by this rude behaviour (especially if they're first seeing it, like an US pax).

Interestingly enough, there is a mention of it on the BA board. Apparently, they do it as well, and it irks half the people, while the other half is totally in favour of it.

I guess that is how it rests. Some are irked and some are in favor of it.

I guess that is how it rests. Some are irked and some are in favor of it.

Yep, there is visibly no right answer for the airlines. With regards to greeting, I must say that I felt much more welcome when greeted at the seat. But it might not be practical for Economy pax to have a crewmember going along the aisle to greet people.

I guess that is how it rests. Some are irked and some are in favor of it.To be honest, I suspect that most people couldn't care less either way. It is only in the world of OCD FFers that these things take on an emotional import out of all proportion with their objective significance. :)

To be honest, I suspect that most people couldn't care less either way. It is only in the world of OCD FFers that these things take on an emotional import out of all proportion with their objective significance. :)

Very true. You see a lot of people in airports either walking around holding their passport and BP, or some who have both hanging around their neck in a plastic holder. :)

Very true. You see a lot of people in airports either walking around holding their passport and BP, or some who have both hanging around their neck in a plastic holder. :)

UM !

UM !

No, I'm talking about grown adults!

No, I'm talking about grown adults!

Like me. Having the leather (not plastic) passport + BP holder gives me more convenience and efficiency. I have 3 passports + an oversized ID Card that doesn't fit on my American wallet, and the only way to have them available upon request is to have them on a passport holder, otherwise, it would take me sometime to take it out of my laptop case.

Not really implemented coherently. On yesterday's CDG-YUL flight ID had to be shown when boarding.

Not really implemented coherently. On yesterday's CDG-YUL flight ID had to be shown when boarding.

Perfectly coherent. Canada just like some other countries (e.g. USA) requires passports to be checked at boarding gate. Nothing to do with France changing its policy, it's Canada that hasn't changed its policy.

Leaving CDG on another airline last week: no more ID check ^

Perfectly coherent. Canada just like some other countries (e.g. USA) requires passports to be checked at boarding gate. Nothing to do with France changing its policy, it's Canada that hasn't changed its policy.

Leaving CDG on another airline last week: no more ID check ^

+ 1 and + 1 ^

Perfectly coherent. Canada just like some other countries (e.g. USA) requires passports to be checked at boarding gate. Nothing to do with France changing its policy, it's Canada that hasn't changed its policy.^

I know that some countries require PP checks, but I thought these checks are there to ensure that pax have the necessary visa and are usually done during check-in. At boarding they look merely at the name, but are not checking validity of the document to enter the destination country. Anyway, just learnt something new.

I know that some countries require PP checks, but I thought these checks are there to ensure that pax have the necessary visa and are usually done during check-in. At boarding they look merely at the name, but are not checking validity of the document to enter the destination country. Anyway, just learnt something new.

The thing is that "check in" often happens on a PC printer at home or on a mobile phone that is in fact the first "physical encounter" a passenger may have with any sort of person looking for document validity/visa, etc

At boarding they look merely at the name, but are not checking validity of the document to enter the destination country. Anyway, just learnt something new.

As SanGottardo said, control at check-in is no longer possible now that you do that outside of the airport. I'd add that they're checking documentation better to countries known to require a visa. My guess is that they saw mostly passport from countries they knew would need no visa to enter Canada as a tourist. If you don't intend to be a tourist, I think it's above what is asked of the airlines (they don't conduct interview or immigration).

The thing is that "check in" often happens on a PC printer at home or on a mobile phone that is in fact the first "physical encounter" a passenger may have with any sort of person looking for document validity/visa, etc

I agree in case of OLCI, but if you do check-in at a counter, they are actually checking twice. Just as a sidenote, when taking Emirates end of last year, I did OLCI and was called by the GA together with a couple of other pax about 1 hour before boarding for PP check. They knew exactly who passed through the check-in desk and who printed BP at home.

I did OLCI and was called by the GA together with a couple of other pax about 1 hour before boarding for PP check. They knew exactly who passed through the check-in desk and who printed BP at home.

It defeats the point of OLCI, though.

I agree in case of OLCI, but if you do check-in at a counter, they are actually checking twice. Just as a sidenote, when taking Emirates end of last year, I did OLCI and was called by the GA together with a couple of other pax about 1 hour before boarding for PP check. They knew exactly who passed through the check-in desk and who printed BP at home.

AF (and other airlines) will do that as well but in addition to the gate checks in some specific cases: e.g. if you are travelling to the US, have OLCI'ed AND connected at the airport. The bottom line is that if I am not mistaken, on flights to a number of destinations such as the US and I believe Canada (and in different ways Israel), the airline does not have any choice has to what controls are implemented, it is part of what the destination country asks them to do in return for letting them fly.

As SanGottardo said, control at check-in is no longer possible now that you do that outside of the airport.

Is it not the case that, when travelling to the US, you do have to present yourself to an agent at some stage before boarding the flight?

When flying BA to the US, you always have to go to a desk (for "verification") even, as the website puts it, you are not checking luggage and have already checked in. When I flew from DUB via LHR to the US a few months ago on a different airline, I also had to visit te airline desk in transit at Heathrow in order to pick up my boarding pass for that flight - it could not be issued as part of the online check-in process or at the luggage drop-off/check-in desk in Dublin.

It's a while since I've travelled to the US from an airport other than LHR, but I expect that it is the case when leaving from anywhere that you have to interact with an agent at some stage before getting your boarding pass, or before being allowed to board.

When flying BA to the US, you always have to go to a desk (for "verification") even, as the website puts it, you are not checking luggage and have already checked in.

It's a while since I've travelled to the US from an airport other than LHR, but I expect that it is the case when leaving from anywhere that you have to interact with an agent at some stage before getting your boarding pass, or before being allowed to board.

I never have to do this at LHR. I have no problem getting my BP on my Iphone 24 hours in advance of flights to the US on BA. I have a US passport which may help though.

However AF does not allow anyone to OLCI on flights to the US. I raised this point at the AF Do last month and showed them the BA BP on my iPhone, and as I was flying that very day CDG-ATL, I showed them that I could not do the same with AF. The people we met didn't understand why, but they quickly looked into the problem. It seems that the United Kingdom has an agreement with the USA that allows OLCI. But France has no such agreement with the USA so AF pax cannot OLCI on flights to the US.

The issue is not with getting a boarding pass from BA for flights to the USA - as you say, it's possible to check in online for BA flights to the US. They do, however, require you to go to a desk at the airport, even if you are not carrying luggage or if you already have your boarding pass (i.e. even in cases where you would not otherwise need to go to a desk). I once went straight to security and was sent back to a desk - it HAS to be done.

I don't think your US passport would get you out of this requirement. Perhaps you needed to make contact with a BA agent anyway - to check a bag, for instance.

The website gives no indication that US passport holders are exempt from the requirement:



(under the "Go through airport security on time" heading)

Extra security when travelling from the USA
When travelling from the USA, you must go to a check-in desk and see a British Airways agent, even if you have used online check-in or a check-in kiosk. This is to complete formalities before you go through security.



I notice there that it says "FROM" the USA - but it definitely used to be the case when travelling "TO" the USA - now I'm confused!!! I really do think they mean "TO".

And it's not just BA - as far as I can tell, regardless of which airline you travel with from Heathrow to the US, you do have to see an agent from that airline while in transfer (if not starting from Heathrow), as well as potentially being interviewed by an ICTS agent when it's a US airline.

The issue is not with getting a boarding pass from BA for flights to the USA - as you say, it's possible to check in online for BA flights to the US. They do, however, require you to go to a desk at the airport, even if you are not carrying luggage or if you already have your boarding pass (i.e. even in cases where you would not otherwise need to go to a desk). I once went straight to security and was sent back to a desk - it HAS to be done.

All I can tell you is that I do not have to do this. Of course when transiting at LHR with BA, all passengers no matter where they are going have to get their BP and maybe their passport or visa checked at the transit station before security. Perhaps they do this check there. But when departing direct from Heathrow, I always use a mobile BP and never check bags and go straight to security and the lounge. Maybe there is some check somewhere behind the scenes, but I am unaware of it.

However AF does not allow anyone to OLCI on flights to the US. I raised this point at the AF Do last month and showed them the BA BP on my iPhone, and as I was flying that very day CDG-ATL, I showed them that I could not do the same with AF. The people we met didn't understand why, but they quickly looked into the problem. It seems that the United Kingdom has an agreement with the USA that allows OLCI. But France has no such agreement with the USA so AF pax cannot OLCI on flights to the US.

I had a check-in at a machine in GVA(-CDG-US) where it checks the passport. I never saw an agent in GVA or CDG. There was no PP check at either counters.

Perhaps the passport control exiting Schengen checks for valid visa at arrival country? But I doubt it.

Definitely interviewed for Delta operated flights.

I had a check-in at a machine in GVA(-CDG-US) where it checks the passport. I never saw an agent in GVA or CDG. There was no PP check at either counters.

That's perfectly valid. I was referring to OLCI.

It probably makes most sense to separate the issue of how you get your BP and the issue of checking ID before boarding.

Mobile BP: most airlines allow mobile BP also for flights from/to USA. In all cases passport data have to be inserted as they will be passed on to US immigration. Air France doesn't have that, but that may be the result of overall poor functionality of AF remote check-in possibilities or for a tendency of doing this "for security" without thinking of whether it actually makes a difference.

Print out BP at home: same as above. AFAIK even Air France allows that for flights to/from USA. I have not taken AF across the pond for more than 2 years, but I seem to remember that on my most recent trips I was able to print a real BP - not only a "check in confirmation/pick up your BP at the check-in counter" - from my PC. Not sure whether AF has done away with another absurdity that existed at least some years ago at JFK (and maybe other US gateways?): you could check in online, but it was impossible to retrieve the BP from the self service machines that were standing next to the CKI counters. Basically the self service machines could not deliver BP at all :rolleyes:

Whichever form of CKI you choose, for flights to the US there is an ID check that is performed at the departure gate. A person working for a security firm on behalf of US immigration checks ID and BP, and I think they often machine-read the passport as well for data transmission. That check has nothing to do with how you check in, it is done for ALL passengers. Even for those that have already shown their ID at the check in counter. Sure, it is a double check, but the first check is done by the airline, the second one on behalf of the US government. Between the large number of redundant checks that are done at AF in CDG that one more doesn't make a difference.

The situation described earlier on for flights with Emirates (which by the way also exists for Qatar Airways): these companies require your passport data for CKI. But it is sufficient for the airline to see the passport, there is no further party involved. Thus: if you check in at the counter, you show your ID, and that's it. If you check in online or on your mobile phone, you enter the passport data, but then you have to show it to a gate agent at the departure airport. I remember having experienced that for some flights in the last couple of weeks for Emirates, where I had to show the passport after OLCI at the gate (Munich) or at the Emirates lounge (London Heathrow), and also with Qatar Airways (Milan), but not leaving on Qatar Airways from Paris CDG or for flights leaving from DXB where all I had was my mobile BP. Indeed, as observed by Richelieu, it does defeat the purpose of OLCI.

I'm a little unclear on this.

I need to get a visa which will entail me being without my UK passport for a couple of weeks. Do the AF rules mean that I can travel in the Schengen area without either a passport or identity card?

Is a Carte Vitale or driving license valid ID?

I'm a little unclear on this.

I need to get a visa which will entail me being without my UK passport for a couple of weeks. Do the AF rules mean that I can travel in the Schengen area without either a passport or identity card?

Is a Carte Vitale or driving license valid ID?
Certainly not

Certainly not

Actually, he asked if he could travel in the Schengen area. I read it as "within" (he's now in the Schengen area, send his passport to get a visa, and asks if he can take a flight from, say, Paris to Frankfurt without a passport). Which isn't the same thing as being in the UK right now and traveling to the Schengen area.

Since there is no ID check at the border between France and Germany, I'd say yes in the former case.

Actually, he asked if he could travel in the Schengen area. I read it as "within" (he's now in the Schengen area, send his passport to get a visa, and asks if he can take a flight from, say, Paris to Frankfurt without a passport). Which isn't the same thing as being in the UK right now and traveling to the Schengen area.

Since there is no ID check at the border between France and Germany, I'd say yes in the former case.

Several issues here:
1) of course the OP can drive between France and Germany, as there are no land border checks
2) but there are countries within the Schengen area where it is a legal requirement to be able to offer proof of your identity at any time to police officers, and facilities, such as some hotels, that have the same requirement; it is debatable whether a UK driver's license would be enough
3) flying between countries within the Schengen area; well, it depends, as airlines can add their own requirements; again, whether a UK driver's license is enough is debatable

With respect to carte vitale, I would agree with Goldorak

2) but there are countries within the Schengen area where it is a legal requirement to be able to offer proof of your identity at any time to police officers

And there are some (most?) were a driver's licence is acceptable, like France (if there is a photo on UK's drivers' licence, which I assume but don't know).

, and facilities, such as some hotels, that have the same requirement; it is debatable whether a UK driver's license would be enough

I agree that he could have more problems with hotels than with flying.


3) flying between countries within the Schengen area; well, it depends, as airlines can add their own requirements; again, whether a UK driver's license is enough is debatable

[quote]
With respect to carte vitale, I would agree with Goldorak

I agree that few would identify it and it would cause more problem than a drivers' licence (lack of picture, for example).

Several issues here:
1) of course the OP can drive between France and Germany, as there are no land border checks
2) but there are countries within the Schengen area where it is a legal requirement to be able to offer proof of your identity at any time to police officers, and facilities, such as some hotels, that have the same requirement; it is debatable whether a UK driver's license would be enough
3) flying between countries within the Schengen area; well, it depends, as airlines can add their own requirements; again, whether a UK driver's license is enough is debatable

With respect to carte vitale, I would agree with Goldorak

In my understanding it is quite clear that in any case of identity check, a driver's license would NOT be considered proof of identity at least officially. Whether it would be considered a tolerable alternative is indeed open to guessing.

I agree that few would identify it and it would cause more problem than a drivers' licence (lack of picture, for example).

I thought all Carte Vitale's had pictures nowadays? Mine has for about 2 years now. Minor point though. It still would not be accepted as ID by another country or airline or certainly not at a hotel in Italy. ;)

Thanks for the replies. For clarity - I live in France but need to go to Spain (don't need a hotel) while my passport is being processed. So, I am talking about travel within the Schengen area. Specifically I was unsure whether I could take a flight on Air France without a) a passport or b) an identity card.

My back up is to take the train. I was just curious re my Carte Vitale which does indeed have a photo of me on it.

My back up is to take the train.

I think you will have to go with the backup plan. And hope the police don't do any random ID checks on your journey. I was sitting in the station cafe in Dijon once when the police came in with dogs looking for someone. They checked the ID of everyone in the place. And I mean they checked close and looked at expiration dates and photos.

What you should do in any case is make a photocopy of your passport and carry it around with you.

Another idea and what I do is just go to whatever embassy you need the visa for in Paris and get your visa on the spot. I can't be without my passport for two weeks!

Can't the UK embassy provide you with a temporary proof of identification or something like that if you explain that your passport is being held by the xxx embassy to process a visa? Or at least make a photocopy of your passport and of your visa application so that things can be verified if there is any control. I don't believe that the French or Spaniards or anyone else would accept a foreign driver's license as proof identification, certainly not formally. Other possibility, if you were allowed to keep your old UK passport (e.g. for visa purposes etc) when it expired, a passport from an EU member state expired for less than (I believe) 10 years is an acceptable proof of identification.

In Germany, Trains which cross the borders (like Thalys) are controlled very often by the Bundespolizei.

Regarding the driving license, it is one thing to use it in France as an ID by example to pay by check in a supermarket but using it as an official ID for international travel (even intra Schengen) is a completely different story and, personnaly, I would never take the risk to travel in another country without a valid ID. As said by other posters, a driving license is surely not considered as a valid ID outside its country of origin.
But 2 weeks to obtain a visa is really long. Stimpy had a good idea suggesting you to try to do this in Paris if you can. Usually, it can be done in 48hrs max.

BTW, another reason to not consider a driving license as a valid ID is the age of the picture on it. If you take the example of the French one which never expire, it means that you can have very very old picture on it. In my case, I'm 18 y.o. on my picture's license and every time I rent a car, the agent is laughing out loud seeing it and always ask "is it really you here ?":D

In my understanding it is quite clear that in any case of identity check, a driver's license would NOT be considered proof of identity at least officially. Whether it would be considered a tolerable alternative is indeed open to guessing.

In France, it would, as any mean is allowed.

www.service-public.fr states that among others :


L'identité peut être justifiée par un titre d'identité (carte nationale d'identité, passeport ou permis de conduire), une autre pièce (document d'état civil indiquant la filiation, livret militaire, carte d'électeur ou carte vitale), voire un témoignage.


The newer ones, with picture, only. The older ones are probably debatable. The last mean must be rarely used, I guess, as people usually have some kind of ID... I proved ID (post-2001) with a SNCF discount card. The requirements on ID are deliberately low.

In Spain, there could be a problem, I don't know what are their rules on ID checks, but it's not related to France or AF policy with regard to ID checks at the gate. The problem once the border is crossed is the same whether he went by plane, train or car.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/eu-citizen/index_en.htm

If you are an EU national , you do not need to show your national ID card or passport when you are travelling from one EU country to another.

... but you need to have it with you. A drivers licence may be considered as an an ID card within France, but it's NOT the right document if you want to cross a border. so - be careful, your travel and residence documents may be examined during routine identity checks while you travel within the EU. And not having them in a foreign country is serious!

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/eu-citizen/index_en.htm


... but you need to have it with you. A drivers licence may be considered as an an ID card within France, but it's NOT the right document if you want to cross a border. so - be careful, your travel and residence documents may be examined during routine identity checks while you travel within the EU. And not having them in a foreign country is serious!

Note that he's already doing that. As a UK national in France (temporarily) without a passport... He's lucky that proof of ID is (apparently) much easier here than in the rest of the EU.

In France, it would, as any mean is allowed.



A FRENCH drivers license is but I don't think a foreign one is. The justification for accepting a French driver's license as identity proof is because it is provided by the French state and thus its details are held on your national identity records, and indeed, as you suggest, within France, all documents associated with this record are acceptable including a hunting permit or a disability card. However, I don't believe that the same is true of foreign nationals. AFAIK, the database available for police co-operation within the EU includes passports and ID cards information so I just don't think that a foreign driver's license would be an acceptable proof of identification.

A FRENCH drivers license is but I don't think a foreign one is. The justification for accepting a French driver's license as identity proof is because it is provided by the French state and thus its details are held on your national identity records, and indeed, as you suggest, within France, all documents associated with this record are acceptable including a hunting permit or a disability card.

Any document, even private, or a witness confirming your identity is acceptable (as stated above from service-public.fr). Identity check are the lowest level of administrative checks and the requirements are low. If a random person can confirm your identity, a foreign ID serves the same purpose. Of course, should the police need to verify your identity as part of another procedure (and not simply check it randomly), the requirements become more stringent (but you get more rights as part of this procedure). Of course, suspicious answer during an ID check can trigger an identity verification.

Proof of identity

The controlled person is obliged to prove his/her identity.

The identity can be justified by an identity document (identity card, passport or driving license), or other form of document (civil status document indicating affiliation, military record, voter registration card or carte vitale) or testimony.

In addition, a foreign person must establish the regularity of his/her stay in France (passport, visa, residence permit).

If the controlled person can not produce documents or if they seem insufficient to establish the identity (without photo paper), a verification of identity may be requested.

Identity verification

Conduct of the audit

A police officer may detain - locally or on the premises - a person whom h/shee seeks to establish identity.

The audit must not exceed 4 hours (8 hours Mayotte) since monitoring began.

During this period, the controlled person may submit new papers to use testimonials, to prevent the prosecutor or any person of his/her choice.

If he/she is a minor person, his/her legal representative must be notified in advance, and assist in the audit (except where prohibited). The prosecutor must also be informed.

Fingerprinting

The prosecutor (or judge) may authorize the taking of fingerprints and photographs only if there is no other way to establish identity.

Source: "Service Public" French official site (http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F1036.xhtml)

The stupid thing is that you are not asked to show any ID when leaving CDG, but most of the time your ID is asked at boarding when flying back (when boarding is managed by airport agent rather than AF staff).

Effective immediately, in accordance with a government decision (arrêté) published in the Journal Officiel, ID checks are reinstated.

Suite à l´arrêté paru dans le Journal Officiel , nous vous informons qu´à compter du 8 février la vérification de concordance entre l’identité mentionnée sur la carte d’embarquement et une pièce d´identité sera exigée des compagnies aériennes par les autorités nationales, y compris pour des déplacements au sein de l´espace Schengen (y compris à l´intérieur de la France métropolitaine), il y a lieu pour tout passager d´être en mesure de présenter un document attestant son identité.
L´ensemble des services d´exploitation d´Air France ainsi que ceux de nos partenaires ont été dès maintenant prévenus de cette parution demain 08 février 2013.

Effective immediately, in accordance with a government decision (arrêté) published in the Journal Officiel, ID checks are reinstated.

What happens to the automatic gates then?

Effective immediately, in accordance with a government decision (arrêté) published in the Journal Officiel, ID checks are reinstated.

Wasn't checked this morning, at least not on my non-AF flight. And I don't think the check is for AF flights only, or is it?

And: how useless is this?

If someone wants to do something bad and his name is known to be a potential troublemaker/terrorist: if he uses his right name, it'll be picked up by the no-fly lists anyway. If he wants to use a wrong name, he surely will also be able to get himself a false passport.

If someone is a terrorist but noone knows that he is, then he can travel with his real name and a matching passport, it won't make a difference.

Moreover, if the bomb is in the luggage: The luggage will be screened, and for those that love the passport-BP match, rest assured, the passport is shown at luggage check-in.

If his explosives or whatever else is in his hand luggage: it'll be picked up at security control, irrespective of whether the name on his boarding pass matches the one on his passport.

So what advantage is there? None.

What disadvantages are there? Plenty. Slows down boarding and airlines need staff to do the checking.

This entire initiative is useless and a farce. :td::td::td:

Two reasons I can think of.

1. If there is the tiniest chance that a politician could get blamed for something bad, he will act to prevent that no matter the cost.

2. The US government told them to.

Two reasons I can think of.

1. If there is the tiniest chance that a politician could get blamed for something bad, he will act to prevent that no matter the cost.

2. The US government told them to.

I am afraid that your summary is spot-on. Even if useless, showing some sort of action is part of the "cover my back" mentality of politicians (like what I heard this morning from my cab driver: they want to impose a speed limit of 30km/h in Paris because of many accidents with pedestrians. How about thinking of ways that cars and pedestrians don't cross each others' trajectories in a dangerous way, such as making them respect traffic lights and pedestrian crossings?).

Good decision to reintroduce Passport-Check!
I like all things which make the life of bad guys a little bit harder.
In Germany you now need a Biometric-"Reisepass" and I think they are not so easy to fake.

Good decision to reintroduce Passport-Check!
I like all things which make the life of bad guys a little bit harder.
In Germany you now need a Biometric-"Reisepass" and I think they are not so easy to fake.

This does make life harder for the good guys :mad:, the bad guys have no problem faking an ID document and airline staff don't have the means to detect if an ID is genuine or faked, for that purpose you would have to pass immigration like controls.

Agree with San Gottardo, the whole process is completly useless, but there are worse things in life than an ID check :D

Good decision to reintroduce Passport-Check!
I like all things which make the life of bad guys a little bit harder.
In Germany you now need a Biometric-"Reisepass" and I think they are not so easy to fake.

@stimpy: you see, and it's because of reactions like these that politicians keep on doing it!

This does make life harder for the good guys :mad:, the bad guys have no problem faking an ID document and airline staff don't have the means to detect if an ID is genuine or faked, for that purpose you would have to pass immigration like controls.

!? There is no staff needed to check you Passport. Today this can done by a Machine. You just have to swipe your Passport like there is no staff needed to check your Bording Pass, it can done all by a Machine within seconds.
Btw. at Home you also lock you Door (or?) even it costs time and a good robber will unlock it within three minutes.

Good decision to reintroduce Passport-Check!
I like all things which make the life of bad guys a little bit harder.
In Germany you now need a Biometric-"Reisepass" and I think they are not so easy to fake.

Oh please... :rolleyes: I'm sure the "bad guys" are all cowering in a corner because of this...

Anyway, don't you have ID cards in Germany? So there is no need whatsoever to show your shiny flashy new Biometric-"Reisepass" when traveling in Europe.

@stimpy: you see, and it's because of reactions like these that politicians keep on doing it!

Spot on! Sadly enough these days far too many people are happy to comply when asked to "show me your papers!", without asking if it's really necessary. :td:

Good decision to reintroduce Passport-Check!
I like all things which make the life of bad guys a little bit harder.
In Germany you now need a Biometric-"Reisepass" and I think they are not so easy to fake.

This is wrong. For flights within the Schengen Zone the "Personalausweis" is sufficient, which does not contain biometric information.

This entire initiative is useless and a farce. :td::td::td:

+1: administrative idiocy of the highest order. :td::td::td:

My head is spinning, This thread starts to lean towards conspiracy theories.

If someone boards with a false name then the ticket or BP was stolen which means two people with the same BP are checking in. Result: alarm bells ringing.

Or if this is not the case...how did the person with the false name pay for his ticket? Either with cc or cheque which is linked to a real known persons identity (yeah not necessarily the ticket bearer but deffo someone who can be tracked down), or cash at a ticket office, which requires ID. Right...!

If someone boards with a false name then the ticket or BP was stolen which means two people with the same BP are checking in. Result: alarm bells ringing.

Not necessarily true. False names on real ID or false ID do "successfully" get used without alarm bells ringing when boarding or even before.




Or if this is not the case...how did the person with the false name pay for his ticket? Either with cc or cheque which is linked to a real known persons identity (yeah not necessarily the ticket bearer but deffo someone who can be tracked down), or cash at a ticket office, which requires ID. Right...!

Not necessarily true. Some other means of payment get processed even by those not presenting their own ID at the time of ticketing.

Payment of tickets is possible even without tracking back to the actual purchaser.

This is wrong. For flights within the Schengen Zone the "Personalausweis" is sufficient, which does not contain biometric information.

This is not even limited to the Schengen zone. Europeans can travel to most other European countries without a passport (including non-Schengen countries like the UK or non-EU countries like Norway).

This is wrong. For flights within the Schengen Zone the "Personalausweis" is sufficient, which does not contain biometric information.
Der neue Personalausweis enthält einen RFDI-Chip, seine Daten sind alle elektronisch auslesbar, genau wie beim Reisepass

Der neue Personalausweis enthält einen RFDI-Chip, seine Daten sind alle elektronisch auslesbar, genau wie beim Reisepass

I think you are turning things upside down. It is not because you guys in Germany have ID with biometric chips that the rest of Europe must introduce ID checks at boarding which by sheer logic (not opinion) do not increase security, but will in fact increase costs for operators and make things more hasslesome for passengers.

The checks are useless as demonstrated earlier on, and costs will exist. Not every country has machine-readable IDs. But since there also people from those non machine-readable passport countries that travel on AF the automatic solution doesn't work.

Obviously you can try to deconstruct that logic that was laid out by numerous people (including by me some posts further up).

If you want more security there are other things to do. For instance make security checks smarter (which doesn't mean more of a hassle and harassment).

ID was asked today for boarding (flight to BCN) because of "Vigipirate's highest level of security".

I think you are turning things upside down. It is not because you guys in Germany have ID with biometric chips that the rest of Europe must introduce ID checks at boarding which by sheer logic (not opinion) do not increase security, but will in fact increase costs for operators and make things more hasslesome for passengers.

The checks are useless as demonstrated earlier on, and costs will exist. Not every country has machine-readable IDs. But since there also people from those non machine-readable passport countries that travel on AF the automatic solution doesn't work.

Obviously you can try to deconstruct that logic that was laid out by numerous people (including by me some posts further up).

If you want more security there are other things to do. For instance make security checks smarter (which doesn't mean more of a hassle and harassment).

Fully agree... And by the way, I do think that the 'come on, it's not such a big deal to have to go through an id check' is neither here nor there: it would similarly be 'no big deal' to have to show your id whenever you board a bus, a train, or go to work or for that matter whenever you randomly cross some police officers on the street but there is simply no reason to condone a very minor inconvenience if it does not increase security whatsoever. Same goes, in my view, with body scanners, liquid restrictions, and all the extra tosh which has been devised for no other reason than to convince your average passenger that if you make flying a plane more hassle it "must" mean that it is safer. Rubbish...

@Orbimitc: In Germany you have to scan your Boarding Pass in a Public Bus at the Entrance of the Bus in many cities. And you have to show your ID in a Train, if you have a personal Boarding Card. No one here has a Problem witht that. At big companys you have also to show your ID/Office-Card. Do you think you just can walk in without ID-Check!? :-D
It takes just seconds. In my opinion its a bit funny, how many of you have panic to show theire Boarding Pass/ID. Its not such a big deal as you think.
And in the States I have to show my ID almost every time I pay something. Why do you guys from France have such a big problem with your ID?

I've never had to show my ID in a German train. Yes the police can demand to see your ID in any country, but that is not a normal occurrence.

@Orbimitc: In Germany you have to scan your Boarding Pass in a Public Bus at the Entrance of the Bus in many cities. And you have to show your ID in a Train, if you have a personal Boarding Card. No one here has a Problem witht that. It takes yous seconds. Ih my opinion its a bit funny, how many of you have panic to show the theire Boarding Pass/ID. Its not such a big deal as you think.

I don't think anyone here has a problem with showing a boarding card or pass (or whatever you want to call it). We're discussing ID cards and/or passports.

And when you have to show your ID on a train in Germany, it's about revenue protection and preventing credit card fraud. When you buy the ticket on-line you have to say what type of proof of ID you will use (your ID card for instance) and then that ID has to be shown on the train. (Note: on the train. Not before boarding the train.) In this scenario, nobody asks for your papers using some security pretext.

Why do you guys from France have such a big problem with your ID?

Again, it's not a problem with my id or whatever else, it's a problem with just accepting to go through controls or share any form of personal information when it serves no purpose. To me the fact that it is 'no big deal' is no reason to do it. I think that San Gottardo has convincingly shown how dubious it is that extra security is gained from this at all and therefore I do not see any reason to support this. And like stimpy, I have personally never had to show my ID on the German trains I have taken so I suspect we are talking of revenue protection and not "anti terrorism" as mentioned by Koby?

On my Personal "Train-card" stands: "Nur gültig in Verbindung mit einem Personalausweis" (=Only valid with a ID). And I always have to show my Personal Ticket and my ID. So I have no problem to show a ID if I board a Airplane.

@orbitmic: What Do you do if you fly from France to the United States or to the Uk!? Do you then "just accepting to go through controls or share any form of personal information"? :confused: Or if you have a meeting at a big company in Frankfurt, where you have to show your ID at the Entrance? Where is your problem to show a Airline your ID and Boarding Card? I dont understand.

DGAC press release (http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CDUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.developpement-durable.gouv.fr%2FIMG%2Fpdf%2FCP_DGAC_embarquement _concordance_documentaire.pdf&ei=o74WUdP4C4qd0QXZ4oGICQ&usg=AFQjCNFThJ1T591nAg0pRERt0drWc_fEDQ&bvm=bv.42080656,d.d2k)

Journal officiel de la République Française (http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.legifrance.gouv.fr%2FaffichTe xte.do%3Bjsessionid%3D%3FcidTexte%3DJORFTEXT000027 041914%26dateTexte%3D%26oldAction%3DrechJO%26categ orieLien%3Did&ei=o74WUdP4C4qd0QXZ4oGICQ&usg=AFQjCNHs9IGCS4KpTPQ8Sr7b_Htkr_560g&bvm=bv.42080656,d.d2k)

The reinstatement of document checks is a consequence of the increased VIGIPIRATE threat level. This decision is taken for three months and will then be re-evaluated. All airlines are required to make random ID checks representing at least 20% of passengers on domestic or Schengen flights. All passengers are required to show ID upon request from an airline representative before boarding a plane.

Airline compliance is mandated within 24hrs of the publication of the arrêté.

On my Personal "Train-card" stands: "Nur gültig in Verbindung mit einem Personalausweis" (=Only valid with a ID). And I always have to show my Personal Ticket and my ID.

That is because you have a train card. French train "cards" have a photo on them so the controller can see if it is indeed the person traveling. I do not possess a German train card so I just show the controller my ticket and no ID. I was on the ICE and S-Bahn in Dusseldorf last week and was not asked for my ID. Nothing to do with anti-terrorism.

On my Personal "Train-card" stands: "Nur gültig in Verbindung mit einem Personalausweis" (=Only valid with a ID). And I always have to show my Personal Ticket and my ID. So I have no problem to show a ID if I board a Airplane.

@orbitmic: What Do you do if you fly from France to the United States or to the Uk!? Do you then "just accepting to go through controls or share any form of personal information"? :confused: Or if you have a meeting at a big company in Frankfurt, where you have to show your ID at the Entrance? Where is your problem to show a Airline your ID and Boarding Card? I dont understand.

On your point (1) yes, this is what the rest of us have said: it is revenue protection because you are using a card and Deutsche Bahn does not want you to pass on your card to your brother so that he can travel with a discount he is not entitled to.

On your point (2), on trips from France to the UK or US, the airline wants to check your ID not for identity issues but for travel allowance issues. The reason is that if the airline transports you to the UK and you are not entitled to enter the country, you will be deported at the airline's expense. This obviously does not apply to Schengen as entry rules are valid for the entire area.

As for your last point, it is not that you do not understand what is my problem with showing my ID, it is that you apparently do not accept the fact that I have no problem with showing my ID but a problem with showing my ID (again, or sharing any personal information) when it serves no security purpose. Would you have a problem if a stranger on the street randomly asked you to show him your passport? And asked you where you just came from, where you are going and who you will be meeting today? Maybe not but I would. The reason for that is that it is understood that any limitation on civil liberties (whether we talk of identity checks, personal and luggage searches, etc as whether you want it or not, all of those are considered to be limitations to civil liberties by all democratic legal systems including the German Grundgesetz and the European Convention of Human Rights) can only take place within set limits and rules which pertain to it being justified in a certain number of ways, done in a certain number of ways by certain possible people, and stored in a certain number of ways. So again, it is your phrasing of what you perceive to be "my problem" which is mistaken. I have absolutely no problem showing my id or indeed having my luggage searched when this is mandated by security needs and does indeed improve security. I just do not accept that it is the case here.

PS: Just saw that on point (1) stimpy beat me to it

All airlines are required to make random ID checks representing at least 20% of passengers on domestic or Schengen flights.

Minor correction - if I'm not mistaken, it is not 20% of passengers but 100% of passengers (except children) on 20% of Schengen flights (including domestic). In other words, if you are 'lucky' you are on a non-controlled flight and all will go fast, if your flight 'won the lottery' checks will be carried out on all passengers on your flight. At least that's what the law requests.

Would you have a problem if a stranger on the street randomly asked you to show him your passport? And asked you where you just came from, where you are going and who you will be meeting today?
You are really making a big Drama/conspiracy theory ("limitations to civil liberties"). :td:
It is a Airline who has to check your ID, not a Stranger. A Car-Rental Company also has to check your Driver-ID. Do you make the same Drama there?
It's now the Rule of your Country to show your ID if you are boarding a Plane to check if your are really the Person belonging to the Ticket. Please, don't make such a big thing out of it. ;)
Btw. it's just a thesis of you, that "it serves no security purpose".


PS: "Orbitmic Programs: AF/KL FB Plat, BA G, A3 G, Aclub Plat, Hilton G, IC Amb, Starwood G, blablablah, etc"
You are in so many Programs which all record your travel-behaviour. This makes your Comments on ID-Checks even more illogical.

I dont understand.

Yes, it seems so. But we can help.

Let's take things step by step, just to avoid mixing different cases, each one with its different reasoning.

On my Personal "Train-card" stands: "Nur gültig in Verbindung mit einem Personalausweis" (=Only valid with a ID). And I always have to show my Personal Ticket and my ID. So I have no problem to show a ID if I board a Airplane.

The question is not whether you have a "problem" with it. I wouldn't have any problem reciting a poem before I board either. But for what reason?

The question is that this is a hassle for passengers and a cost to airlines, but for no reason.

In the case of your BahnCard there is a reason: the railway company has decided that it wants to limit fraudulous use of those reduction cards and therefore people may be asked that they really are the person who claims the reduction. In Switzerland we solve it slightly differently, there is a photo of the cardholder on the reduction card and that serves as prove that the person claiming the reduction is really entitled to it.

I am sometimes surprised airlines do not do the same things: they sell very inexpensive tickets and for some routes it would be easy to have another person travel on those inexpensive tickets. Airlines could protect this fraudulent use by checking IDs. However they have chosen not to. Evidence? The fact that Air France stopped doing ID-BP matching as soon as it was allowed by the police authorities. I assume the costs for doing the checks do not outweigh the benefits the few cases of fraud.


@orbitmic: What Do you do if you fly from France to the United States or to the Uk!? Do you then "just accepting to go through controls or share any form of personal information"? :confused: Or if you have a meeting at a big company in Frankfurt, where you have to show your ID at the Entrance? Where is your problem to show a Airline your ID and Boarding Card?

Controls make sense if the control finds out something that is relevant; if you can then act against the unwanted behaviour/person; and one might argue that a cost-benefit elements comes into play as well.

You will see that the that people are not against the need to show something. It's against being required to show something without any reason to do so.

You have given several examples.

1. Showing your ticket when you take a bus or tram in Germany (fyi: it's the same in all other countries on the globe, you need to have a ticket to use public transportation. Sometimes you can buy it on board). The ticket is the one document that proves that you have paid the fare and that you are entitled to travel. So there is a reason, which is to check whether someone has paid for the ride. Moreover, the people checking on the fare have the right to sanction you: make you pay a penalty, report to law enforcement agencies, put you in front of a judge in some cases. So there is a reason, the document that is being checked relates to that reason, and the people checking have the powers to do something.

2. Showing your ID when you travel to the UK or the US. Actually, this isn't just US and UK, it's pretty much every country in the world, except when traveling between Schengen states, that you need to show an ID when crossing the border. To be precise, in most cases, it's not just "ID", but a passport. Reason: the passport is shown to check whether a person fulfills the criteria to enter the country. The check is being done by border police, i.e. people who have the legal power to act against you if you are in infringement of immigration laws. They have the power to let you into the country, refuse entry, or detain you. So again, there is a reason, the document being checked relates to that reason, and the people checking have the powers to do something.

3. Matching BP to ID. The reason that is given to us is "security". Quite a blanket buzzword that can mean and justify about anything and seems to be accepted without questioning by more people than I believed. Let's look at it: is there a reason? Well, the reason is that you want to make sure that no person that intends harm boards a plane. Fine. As shown previously that is being taken care of by other means (no fly list, screening of baggage and people, and in some cases border control). So what is the reason for an *additional* check of ID and matching against BP? None that I can think of. Plus: the people checking can't do anything against it. No gate agent is allowed to detain you. Thus, there is no reason and no use, and there is no one who can enforce it.

And there is another thing: if you are so concerned about security - and I am not judging whether it's good or bad to be - why introduce something useless which is just a pain for everyone involved, instead of introducing things which would be useful? You could argue that all luggage that goes on trains must be screened, and so must the people. At least there would be some additional benefit.

Thus, I am not concerned so much about my civil liberties, but just annoyed about another interruption on my way to the plane which is perfectly useless.

I hope this makes things clearer now

Minor correction - if I'm not mistaken, it is not 20% of passengers but 100% of passengers (except children) on 20% of Schengen flights (including domestic). In other words, if you are 'lucky' you are on a non-controlled flight and all will go fast, if your flight 'won the lottery' checks will be carried out on all passengers on your flight. At least that's what the law requests.

You're absolutely right. ^

You are really making a big Drama/conspiracy theory ("limitations to civil liberties"). :td:
It is a Airline who has to check your ID, not a Stranger. A Car-Rental Company also has to check your Driver-ID. Do you make the same Drama there?
It's now the Rule of your Country to show your ID if you are boarding a Plane to check if your are really the Person belonging to the Ticket. Please, don't make such a big thing out of it. ;)
Btw. it's just a thesis of you, that "it serves no security purpose".


PS: "Orbitmic Programs: AF/KL FB Plat, BA G, A3 G, Aclub Plat, Hilton G, IC Amb, Starwood G, blablablah, etc"
You are in so many Programs which all record your travel-behaviour. This makes your Comments on ID-Checks even more illogical.

No, again, your referring to drama is your mistaken interpretation of the source of my comments. There is absolutely nothing "dramatic" in the concept of the limitation of civil liberty. It is simply a legal concept which we live with on a daily basis and which is necessary as a principle to ensure that public order is protected. There is nothing wrong with that and I have absolutely no problem with that when this is needed to either guarantee the security of society and/or the protection of individuals, companies, and their interests. It is simply that because law defines things such as identity verification as a limitation to civil liberty (free circulation of people in this particular case), there are also legal constraints attached to when and how it can be imposed by public authorities.

In that sense, your example of the car-rental company is, yet again, unrelated to the example of the intra-Schengen ID check because the rental company is doing something it needs to do for safety purposes (ie ensure that they do not give keys to somebody who is not entitled to drive). Here, the argument of some of us is that in the case we are discussing, the ID checks do not significantly improve security. You are perfectly free to call it a 'theory' of ours, but at least San Gottardo has spelt out what is the logical basis of the theory in question. You are perfectly free to disagree but at this stage you have not told us yet why you think that it effectively improves security to check passengers' ID at the gate (and if so, why doing it in only 1 in 5 flights makes sense).

I have made the effort to try to understand the basis of your argument (do feel free to tell me if I have understood it wrong) which is: "since it is no big deal to go through an extra ID check, I'm happy to do it" but you don't seem to want to make the effort to try and capture the logic of mine since you keep portraying what I say ("why is it such a big deal to show your id?", "why do you make such drama about showing your id?", "where is your problem to show an airline your id?"' etc) in a way which is totally different from what I am saying ("I think it is absurd of the state to request an ID check in this specific case of flights within Schengen, which adds an unnecessary hurdle and waste of time, as in my view it does not improve security"). If you did, you could still disagree with me, but at least we would be talking of the same thing while right now, it is a bit as though I said "I don't like the taste of chicory" and you answered "why are you saying chicory is bad for your health?" I hope it makes sense.

PS: I suspect that my travel experience which you are referring to is in many ways the reason why I think that the Vigipirate ID check makes no sense: taking well over 200 flights each year and using a lot of trains, hotels, etc I think I am being sensitised to when ID checks tend to be performed and when they are not. When there is a discrepency, I probably see it more than many people and question it. An equivalent would be someone driving in town with a 50km/h limit a lot. If suddenly a government decides to limit the speed of driving on motorways to 50km/h too, they are likely to be unhappy about it because precisely they know why city streets and motorways tend to have different speed limits. The fact that they find the limit a good thing for their city driving does not mean that they would necessarily embrace it being extended to the big roads.