India-based Airlines - Air India Sacks Pilots, Derecognizes Union

http://aeroblogger.com/home/blog/ipg-illegal-strike/
You may not have heard, but Air India’s pilots have been bickering for some time. They are split into two unions, the Indian Pilots Guild (IPG) which is made up of pre-merger Air India pilots, and the Indian Commercial Pilots Association (ICPA) which represents the pre-merger Indian Airlines pilots.

The IPG felt that Air India should only train IPG pilots on the new state-of-the-art Boeing 787s that Air India is receiving, because pre-merger Air India ordered the 787s. In comparison, the ICPA felt that an equal number of ICPA and IPG pilots should fly the 787s. The management agreed with the ICPA, because they felt that it is a fairer way. There has been a few court battles, and both unions were trying to negotiate with management. A few weeks ago, the enmity got so bad that some IPG pilots faked sick so that a flight carrying ICPA pilots to 787 training would get cancelled. The pilots arrived a day late to training.

The courts sided with management and the ICPA. Yesterday, talks broke down between the IPG and management. Ignoring all rules regulating how strikes are to be carried out, the IPG held a “sick-out” yesterday evening, with almost 160 pilots reporting sick. 10 longhaul flights were cancelled. Today, more pilots were planning to report in sick, but AI’s management did something commendable. They fought back.

Aviation minister Ajit Singh declared the strike “illegal” - he said, “There are certain ways of even going on strike. The pilots may have grievances but they should have spoken to the management, me, other well wishers” to the press. Air India sacked 10 pilots who were found to be in good health after reporting sick, and took the politically dangerous decision of derecognizing the IPG, even though the union is backed by the Nationalist Congress Party.

Air India demanded that all pilots report to work this evening. They sent doctors to the homes of the 160 “sick” pilots to verify that they are actually ill. Those who are found to be in good health and don’t report to work tonight will be sacked effective immediately.

Air India has enough problems on its own without having to worry about undisciplined pilots with unreasonable demands. It’s good that management and the MoCA is taking a strong stance, instead of just giving in to the IPG’s demands and setting precedent for the future.

^ Finally, some cojones to take on the AI Unions. Hopefully, the next step will be the ground handling and others

^ Finally, some cojones to take on the AI Unions. Hopefully, the next step will be the ground handling and others

Well done AI. I know there's going to be folks out there who yell bloody murder on this, but I personally think that it is about time that this kind of nonsense is stopped.

C'mon pilots, deal with it. They're trying to make it a fairer system. At least they would have evenly distributed the training, and some folks would have been able to get it.

What's that I hear now? Oh, you're not training for the 787 anymore? How come? Oh right, you don't have a job!

Well done AI. I know there's going to be folks out there who yell bloody murder on this, but I personally think that it is about time that this kind of nonsense is stopped.

The only people I can think of that are going to be yelling bloody murder over this are IPG members (and backers).

Taxpayers are happy that less money is wasted on these idiots. ICPA members are happy that they get their fair chance. Management is happy because they have one less headache to deal with...

The only people I can think of that are going to be yelling bloody murder over this are IPG members (and backers).

Taxpayers are happy that less money is wasted on these idiots. ICPA members are happy that they get their fair chance. Management is happy because they have one less headache to deal with...

It's going to be the free speech/union-rep folks that are going to kick and scream. Plus, there's going to be folks on FT as well that think it was too harsh an action. I can just smell it.

Either way, the deed is done, and was done well. So from my point of view (and presumably yours as well), it doesn't matter.

Here in the US, corporate law essentially makes it such that the employee is always put in front of the employer when legal issues arise.

Case in point: My friend's dad owns a consulting business, with predominantly Desi employees, given that the home branch of his company is back in Pune. They had a few non-Desi folks here in the US working as part of the sales staff. One of the guys didn't meet his sales targets. The other one was caught by IT watching p@*& on his laptop during work hours. Both were terminated within the span of a week. They turned around and sued for racial discrimination, and won. Really...?

My first reaction was: 'that'll save them some golden handshake / IVRs' but then I realised that AI has probably lost all flight deck crew that is somewhat young and competent already... with the GCC carriers adding capacity each day they must be scrambling to find good crew anywhere in the world...

...they must be scrambling to find good crew anywhere in the world...

Wouldn't you rather deal with that instead of living in the constant fear that your crew is going to start making new unreasonable demands?

Not to say that it's an envious position for AI in the least, but I figure that most of the folks are going to come back healthy in the screening and aren't going to have the guts to stay home and take the termination. And long term, AI can then look to phase these clowns out.

Sorry bad phrasing: I mean EK & co are scrambling to find new crew, the sacked AI crews need not fear a day of unemployment if they are terminated. Pension benefits may be an issue, and missing certification on a widebody type that EK & co are looking for may also be a topic.

Sorry bad phrasing: I mean EK & co are scrambling to find new crew, the sacked AI crews need not fear a day of unemployment if they are terminated. Pension benefits may be an issue, and missing certification on a widebody type that EK & co are looking for may also be a topic.

I guess that's a fair point, but then again, wouldn't EK also be wary of hiring these folks after fully knowing the rationale for why they were let go?

One day, these AI guys who switch to EK are going to start complaining that they want to be A380 trained and start staying home. What then?

AFAIK, EK doesn't have much choice... so they will take a few people if they can pass the tests. As far as unions go ... I don't think the sheiks have laws that allow for union representation... :p

More about EKs desperation is here: http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/478355-emirates-dec-positions-now-open.html

...I don't think the sheiks have laws that allow for union representation... :p

Hahaha... that just made my day. You certainly win this discussion. :)

I guess that's a fair point, but then again, wouldn't EK also be wary of hiring these folks after fully knowing the rationale for why they were let go?

One day, these AI guys who switch to EK are going to start complaining that they want to be A380 trained and start staying home. What then?

as Pilots and hence incharge of our lives while we travel on the metal tube, these guys sure are educated well. they do these things at AI because they know, or at least they think they know that they can get away with it.

at EK, they sure don't have a choice but to earn their living in a honest and professional manner

I guess that's a fair point, but then again, wouldn't EK also be wary of hiring these folks after fully knowing the rationale for why they were let go?

One day, these AI guys who switch to EK are going to start complaining that they want to be A380 trained and start staying home. What then?

AI employees are govt. of India employees. They can wriggle more control by way of their unions. The day they show their attitude, they are out.

as Pilots and hence incharge of our lives while we travel on the metal tube, these guys sure are educated well. they do these things at AI because they know, or at least they think they know that they can get away with it.

at EK, they sure don't have a choice but to earn their living in a honest and professional manner

Looks like AI is trying to force their pilots to earn their livings in honest and professional manner as well. I, for one, hope they succeed.

...at least they think they know that they can get away with it.

Well, commendable response from AI here, and hopefully they won't put up with this kind of nonsense in the future either.

at EK, they sure don't have a choice but to earn their living in a honest and professional manner

Hopefully so, and good to see that AI is following this trend.

Oh, and just in case it wasn't clear to you guys, Nationalist Congress Party - the party which is supporting the IPG - is Praful Patel's party.

Oh, and just in case it wasn't clear to you guys, Nationalist Congress Party - the party which is supporting the IPG - is Praful Patel's party.

Surprise, surprise! :D

Similar to what happened in the Icpa strike las year, union derecognised on day 1, few people sacked, then they wait for the weak ones to succumb to pressure and hope some come back. If they do , the ones sacked are gone forever. However, if no one gives in which is what happened last year, all these sackings are utter bulls. But Ipg has history of giving in , when they went on strike during sars epidemic. Took them almost 6-7 years to e rerecognised.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/left-right-centre/govt-should-not-be-in-any-service-industry-ajit-singh-on-air-india/231656?pfrom=home-lateststories

An interview worth watching.

Both Rudy and Ajit Singh had a lot of insightful and sensible things to say. I wish they would run the airline like they envision it. I guess the greed of corruption is insatiable.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/left-right-centre/govt-should-not-be-in-any-service-industry-ajit-singh-on-air-india/231656?pfrom=home-lateststories
Thanks for posting this. Great interview

Both Rudy and Ajit Singh had a lot of insightful and sensible things to say. I wish they would run the airline like they envision it. I guess the greed of corruption is insatiable.
Well said.

Btw, that captain was made to look like such a bakra. I can't believe the pilots union sent such an innocent-looking and weak speaker to represent them on national tv.

As far as unions go ... I don't think the sheiks have laws that allow for union representation... :p

hilarious....:D:D

Breaking News: Delhi High Court says AI strike is illegal. No strikes or sick leave is permitted until further notice, without doctors note. AI management has said that those submitting doctors notes will be audited by AI medical staff. Any pilots who don't report to work tonight will be immediately sacked.

Breaking News: Delhi High Court says AI strike is illegal. No strikes or sick leave is permitted until further notice, without doctors note. AI management has said that those submitting doctors notes will be audited by AI medical staff. Any pilots who don't report to work tonight will be immediately sacked.

Wah! Kya baat hai! The Indian judiciary system functioning at its finest (and fastest). :)

Just got back from the airport, after dropping a relative off for a flight. I talked to some pax scheduled to fly yesterday, as well as some ground staff, and it looks like AI handled this strike well from a customer service perspective.

2 flights were affected ex-HYD - the 744 to JED, and the 777 to ORD. Instead of delaying the flight 2 hours at a time, forcing pax to spend the night at the airport for the departure, the flights were cancelled off the bat. All pax were rebooked onto the next day's service within 1 hour of scheduled departure.

It looks like people were given the choice between being put up at the Marriott and getting a taxi voucher of some sort to go back home, which seems reasonable.

Apparently 1 DWKWIA got aggressive and spent the night with airport police instead of the Marriott though. Lucky for ground staff, it didn't turn into a riot :)

Breaking News: Delhi High Court says AI strike is illegal. No strikes or sick leave is permitted until further notice, without doctors note. AI management has said that those submitting doctors notes will be audited by AI medical staff. Any pilots who don't report to work tonight will be immediately sacked.

An MC, medical certificate is easy to obtain in India. No wonder AI needs to verify a doctor's note. This says a lot, which I am going leave unsaid.

An MC, medical certificate is easy to obtain in India. No wonder AI needs to verify a doctor's note. This says a lot, which I am going leave unsaid.

Well, AI's hands are tied. If they force pilots to come to work even when they are legitimately sick, that's obviously not safe. However, if they let pilots just hand in MCs, then the strike will just continue.

The approach they've taken is probably the best option they have, although it's obviously not as practical as they'd like.

An MC, medical certificate is easy to obtain in India. No wonder AI needs to verify a doctor's note. This says a lot, which I am going leave unsaid.

Well it can't be surprising for you, can it? I'm sure you know that anyone could walk down to Raju-Bhai's clinic on the corner and get whatever they needed written on the note for the right price...

Well it can't be surprising for you, can it? I'm sure you know that anyone could walk down to Raju-Bhai's clinic on the corner and get whatever they needed written on the note for the right price...

Yes, and not every one who furnishes a false note works for AI. The point is this is endemic. It's a sad commentary when every one talks about corruption.
What makes you think I am surprised at AI verifying whether they are really sick? What's surprising is that it happens everywhere.

Yes, and not every one who furnishes a false note works for AI. The point is this is endemic. It's a sad commentary when every one talks about corruption.
What makes you think I am surprised at AI verifying whether they are really sick? What's surprising is that it happens everywhere.

I find it saddening that it happens everywhere, not necessarily surprising. Until the very top of the ladder gets cleaned up, how are we to expect the common man to comply?

I know that there's enough honest people out there, and my basic background and support of socio-political philosophy is more on the lines of 'by default, man is good, unless proven otherwise.' Nevertheless, India is in such a shape right now based on the fact that our leaders themselves are the root cause (personal belief).

Call me idealistic (or stupid) for making a Bollywood reference, but we need things like that Anil Kapoor film Nayak to come about before there's going to be any progress (again, personal opinion).

I find it saddening that it happens everywhere, not necessarily surprising. Until the very top of the ladder gets cleaned up, how are we to expect the common man to comply?


It's easy to lay the blame to a few people (those on top) for everyone's problems. What ever happened to the idea of personal responsibility?

I know that there's enough honest people out there, and my basic background and support of socio-political philosophy is more on the lines of 'by default, man is good, unless proven otherwise.' Nevertheless, India is in such a shape right now based on the fact that our leaders themselves are the root cause (personal belief).


I never get these kinds of socio-political philosophies. Who defines "good" ? What exactly do you mean by "proven otherwise" ?

My sociopolitical philosophy is probably that by default man is self-centered. Pretty much any action that people take is in their own interest, whether in the short or long term.

This discussion would probably be better suited to the Chai Stall though ;)

26 more pilots sacked!

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/air-india-pilots-strike-is-illegal-says-court-10-more-pilots-sacked-208321?pfrom=home-lateststories
1) The Delhi High Court has declared the strike illegal.

2) By evening, 26 more pilots have been sacked. Doctors are being sent to homes of 50 pilots who called in sick. 10 pilots were also fired yesterday.

Seems like management is actually doing something ^^

3) The pilots say the strike will continue till Sunday. The main representative of the pilots, Jitendra Ahwad, said the management has not invited them for talks. "I'm ready to withdraw 99% of the demands, but we expect one step forward from the management," he said.

I must admit, I'm at a complete loss. If they are willing to withdraw 99% of their demands, WTH are they striking for :confused:

Article goes on stating irrelevant facts.

If they are willing to withdraw 99% of their demands, WTH are they striking for :confused:

Lol... I'm really curious as to what the heck the 1% is then...

I am sure it will be don't let Ic fly the 787.

Finally learnt how to quote, will do henceforth. Sorry.

Finally learnt how to quote, will do henceforth. Sorry.

Perhaps it's time to learn how to edit too so you can retroactively add quotes, eh? ;):p

I am sure it will be don't let Ic fly the 787.

Well, then I guess you guys are lucky that management appears to have your backs right now...

ICPA sent a letter to management yesterday pretty much saying "feel free to sack all the IPG pilots, ICPA is here to supply all your pilot needs." It would create a very interesting situation if management took them up on this offer.. I'm sure your career progression prospects would improve quite nicely :)

Of course, that's not going to happen. AI management has already been pretty harsh on the IPG (although deservedly so IMO). If they try to go any further, Praful will come out swinging.

It would create a very interesting situation if management took them up on this offer.. I'm sure your career progression prospects would improve quite nicely :)

I wonder if ICPA pilots are now going to be held on a different ranking (i.e. more highly) than the IPG pilots henceforth?

After all, I would think that management would be worried that the returners might do it again...? :confused:

I wonder if ICPA pilots are now going to be held on a different ranking (i.e. more highly) than the IPG pilots henceforth?

After all, I would think that management would be worried that the returners might do it again...? :confused:

Just last year, it was the ICPA pilots striking.

Things aren't as cut-and-dried as you think ;)

Just last year, it was the ICPA pilots striking.

Things aren't as cut-and-dried as you think ;)

Didn't know about that. Yeah, my world is typically quite black/white... :p

I find it saddening that it happens everywhere, not necessarily surprising. Until the very top of the ladder gets cleaned up, how are we to expect the common man to comply?
That sounds like an excuse for everyone to be corrupt. While it's true that corruption at the top encourages corruption at all levels, there is no compelling reason for people to resort to corruption or bend the rules in every walk of life.

I know that there's enough honest people out there, and my basic background and support of socio-political philosophy is more on the lines of 'by default, man is good, unless proven otherwise.' Nevertheless, India is in such a shape right now based on the fact that our leaders themselves are the root cause (personal belief).

Call me idealistic (or stupid) for making a Bollywood reference, but we need things like that Anil Kapoor film Nayak to come about before there's going to be any progress (again, personal opinion).
I agree that most people are honest at heart and want to be honest. The problem is how they define honesty and corruption. Behind rules to benefit themselves, as long as it doesn't hurt someone directly is not considered corruption by many people. Someone needs to be at home, so submit a false MC. You have a court date, simple, submit a fake MC and have your lawyer ask for another date. Don't feel like getting in line to get your DL. Call up someone you know who knows someone in the licensing bureau so that you can get your license without taking a test or standing in line. No one was hurt. People don;t think that cutting corners for short term sllef interest is corruption.
Any way, all that is not the issue here.

Those pilots deserve to be sacked.

While it's true that corruption at the top encourages corruption at all levels, there is no compelling reason for people to resort to corruption or bend the rules in every walk of life.

...

Those pilots deserve to be sacked.

Agreed on all counts. ^

What an incredibly silly reason to strike. Very impressed with the way mgt responded. Unions have been coddled too much.

How long is this going to continue ? AI has cancelled several long haul flights and they have to solve this somehow in the next few days.

How long is this going to continue ? AI has cancelled several long haul flights and they have to solve this somehow in the next few days.

As per rules, if a pilot calls in sick 14 days in a row, he has to mandatorily present himself before a full Air Force medical board.

So I assume 14 days after the strike started, it will be all over. They don't have another choice.

As per rules, if a pilot calls in sick 14 days in a row, he has to mandatorily present himself before a full Air Force medical board.

So I assume 14 days after the strike started, it will be all over. They don't have another choice.

Is this just AI/IC (being a government affiliated airline) or for all India-based airlines?

Is this just AI/IC (being a government affiliated airline) or for all India-based airlines?
Not sure if it is an AI or a NACIL rule, but it definitely does not apply to the private sector..

shahadil will be able to clarify...

If you are sick for more than 14 days, fracture for eg. Then your class 1 medical which is done every 6 months for captains and above 40 year olds, or every year for the rest, lapses and a fresh appointment needs to be taken for class 1 medical and I believe only at the 3 centres in India, I.e. delhi, Bangalore and jorhat which otherwise we need to see every 4 years,. And then wait for assessment from Dgca which will take 10 days minimum , and I forgot to mention that waiting time at above centres for appointment is so long, we apply for dates 4 months in advance. And this being a Dgca rule, is applicable to every airline pilot in India.

Passing 14 days, is going to be a loss for both parties.

Passing 30 days, people will start losing their currency, requiring route checks. At the same time the instructors and examiners having not exercised their privilege will also lose their currency for taking checks.

The thing which worries me though is 8 days and they are not talking at all. That is not a good sign for both parties at all.

If you are sick for more than 14 days, fracture for eg. Then your class 1 medical which is done every 6 months for captains and above 40 year olds, or every year for the rest, lapses and a fresh appointment needs to be taken for class 1 medical and I believe only at the 3 centres in India, I.e. delhi, Bangalore and jorhat which otherwise we need to see every 4 years,. And then wait for assessment from Dgca which will take 10 days minimum , and I forgot to mention that waiting time at above centres for appointment is so long, we apply for dates 4 months in advance. And this being a Dgca rule, is applicable to every airline pilot in India.

Passing 14 days, is going to be a loss for both parties.

Passing 30 days, people will start losing their currency, requiring route checks. At the same time the instructors and examiners having not exercised their privilege will also lose their currency for taking checks.

The thing which worries me though is 8 days and they are not talking at all. That is not a good sign for both parties at all.

I could have sworn that the DGCA rule was 21 days, and 14 was more strict just for AI. But I guess I'm just confused :o

Update: looks like expected 787 delivery is late next week. I've been hearing May 24th and May 25th thrown around quite a bit...

Not sure what AI will do with the 787s if the pilots keep striking. Are there enough ICPA pilots to operate the first few 787s?

I really hope the management sticks to its guns. There might be a cost now, but it will be good in the long run.

Update: looks like expected 787 delivery is late next week. I've been hearing May 24th and May 25th thrown around quite a bit...

Not sure what AI will do with the 787s if the pilots keep striking. Are there enough ICPA pilots to operate the first few 787s?

At least one person I know will definitely be going to pick it up, I had heard 31st may as delivery date. Incidentally all pilots undergoing 787 training have not reported sick. That might change though after delivery. Ic pilots won't be done with their training till middle of next month.

At least one person I know will definitely be going to pick it up, I had heard 31st may as delivery date.

Will add that to the list of potential dates. 24th, 25th, 29th, 31st. :)

Incidentally all pilots undergoing 787 training have not reported sick. Probably because there is no shortage of people who want to take their places...

That might change though after delivery. Ic pilots won't be done with their training till middle of next month.

Even if it has to sit on the ground for 2 weeks, it won't be the end of the world. After the 777s were delivered, they sat for longer IIRC.

Even if it has to sit on the ground for 2 weeks, it won't be the end of the world. After the 777s were delivered, they sat for longer IIRC.

True, but what a shame to have such a beauty simply grounded! :(

Btw, that captain was made to look like such a bakra. I can't believe the pilots union sent such an innocent-looking and weak speaker to represent them on national tv.

While I agreed with this statement at the time, I feel bad now about agreeing with it. I got a chance to talk to Capt Tauseef Muqaddam while writing up the IPG perspective, and he honestly seemed like a genuinely concerned, soft-spoken, respectful guy. The kind of guy who gets beat up on TV from 5 different directions because he simply cannot be aggressive. I mean, I guess the IPG probably would have been better off sending someone else for these interviews, but it doesn't stop me from sympathizing now...

Having seen a few strikes , I have realised that you need a guy who goes all guns blazing from the word go, keeps everyone quiet and keeps yapping till the entire public and the other presenters become with you rather than against you. Unfortunately for him , first impression is the last impression for majority, and he totally ruined it, notwithstanding the fact that he may be a very genuine guy.

Having seen a few strikes , I have realised that you need a guy who goes all guns blazing from the word go, keeps everyone quiet and keeps yapping till the entire public and the other presenters become with you rather than against you. Unfortunately for him , first impression is the last impression for majority, and he totally ruined it, notwithstanding the fact that he may be a very genuine guy.

I agree completely. The IPG has done a poor job with this strike - I mean, if you read the IPG perspective that I wrote, there is a lot that the public could be sympathizing with the IPG on. But the fact that I had to dig through lots of documents, talk to many people, etc. just to be able to get their perspective shows the underlying issue - they have absolutely no clue how to get their point across. They've gotten better as the strike has progressed, but most of the public has a 2 minute attention span - after the initial impression, it's very difficult to change perception.

I guess that's my point - this guy (and some others I talked to) are very nice, genuine people, but they have no clue how to get their point across (unlike ICPA, whose leaders are more than happy to yell over everyone else). That's why I sympathize with them - no matter what is "fair," these guys are going to get the short end of the stick unless they radically change something. And that doesn't seem likely to happen.

I mean, if you read the IPG perspective that I wrote, there is a lot that the public could be sympathizing with the IPG on.

With all due respect, I think I just threw up on reading that.

Some of us remember IPG antics from decades past. No good can ever come of any group that carries that name.

I really hope the management sticks to its guns. There might be a cost now, but it will be good in the long run.
Indeed!

With all due respect, I think I just threw up on reading that.

Some of us remember IPG antics from decades past. No good can ever come of any group that carries that name.

I don't think anybody can deny that IPG is getting the short end of the stick - they will operate less aircraft, so they will get less promotions.

I don't disagree that IPG antics are still around - whether or not they brought this whole thing upon themselves and are now striking over it in the hopes that they can fix the damage is an entirely different discussion.

You'll see that perspective today and/or Monday when the ICPA perspective comes out.

You'll see that perspective today and/or Monday when the ICPA perspective comes out.
I am sure B747-437B will set an outlook calendar reminder to ensure he doesn't miss it. :D

P.S. B747-437B, I've found Domstal (sp?) often works well as an anti-nausea pill. ;)

Yawn. Deja vu anyone?

Those are fighting words indeed from the minister. But, really, isn't it just yet another turn around the mulberry bush - so far anyway?

I'm afraid I can't help but yawn until something concrete happens. Like AI's death. That would be a real cause to celebrate. I'll be the first one to hand out pendas.

I don't care if it's euthanasia, starvation, exsanguination or some swift wielding of an axe (think Bakri Eid). Just kill the damn thing already.


In the meantime, here's another thought: state-mandated de-unionisation of airline pilots and cabin crew. They're hardly working class and it's not like there's a risk of their being exploited.

It's probably a faraway fantasy, but has more of a chance of coming true than AI ever turning a profit.

Besides all this 787 garbage, it will also put and end to the "My BMW is not meant to transport me between home and airport and I can't travel by taxi because I might break a nail (and then the plane will crash)" nonsense.

I don't care if it's euthanasia, starvation, exsanguination or some swift wielding of an axe (think Bakri Eid). Just kill the damn thing already.

Hear hear. The same applies to KF, its disappointing how it keeps limping along like the undead. Just kill the damn thing already

Hear hear. The same applies to KF, its disappointing how it keeps limping along like the undead. Just kill the damn thing already

Well, the difference is that keeping AI on life support is costing us taxpayers obscene sums of money that we just don't have (makes Pranab's austerity moves look even more ridiculous than they already are).

Kingfisher's financial problems are between the Fat One, his board, shareholders and creditors.

I don't think anybody can deny that IPG is getting the short end of the stick - they will operate less aircraft, so they will get less promotions.

Yes, I can (and do) deny it. You believe too much of the propaganda they feed you.

Yes, I can (and do) deny it. You believe too much of the propaganda they feed you.

Then they're forging the contract they are showing me as well...

Yes, I can (and do) deny it. You believe too much of the propaganda they feed you.

Sorry to question a senior member here, but how are you so sure that you aren't the one in the snare of the media?

According to Business Today, two striking pilots have reported for work. Does that mean the strike is broken or is it just a small crack?

According to Business Today, two striking pilots have reported for work. Does that mean the strike is broken or is it just a small crack?
It just means they've gone part of the way around the mulberry bush.

It just means they've gone part of the way around the mulberry bush.

No singing and dancing? ;)

How are you so sure that you aren't the one in the snare of the media?

I'm pretty sure. :)

Sorry to question a senior member here, but how are you so sure that you aren't the one in the snare of the media?
I think no one on this board has more knowledge of airline business in genera,l and Indian airline industry in particular, than the person to whom you posed this question. Your question is misplaced due to this, not just his seniority.
Seniority is somewhat sinusoidal with a bit of assymetry. :D

I think no one on this board has more knowledge of airline business in genera,l and Indian airline industry in particular, than the person to whom you posed this question. Your question is misplaced due to this, not just his seniority.
Seniority is somewhat sinusoidal with a bit of assymetry. :D

^

Although getting a clarification as to why he feels the way he does would be nice - I'm sure it isn't because he blindly follows the media :)

Although getting a clarification as to why he feels the way he does would be nice - I'm sure it isn't because he blindly follows the media

Too much personal and professional history dealing with the organisation. I'd happily dance on their grave.

Too much personal and professional history dealing with the organisation. I'd happily dance on their grave.

Next time your writing a Whine and Cheez column (or whatever you've moved onto nowadays), maybe this would make a good topic? I would love to hear what they could have done that makes you want to dance on their graves...

Regardless, the IPG which you have history with isn't the same IPG today.. In the last few years, the leadership has changed pretty significantly. Do you actually believe that the organization hasn't changed?

Next time your writing a Whine and Cheez column (or whatever you've moved onto nowadays), maybe this would make a good topic? I would love to hear what they could have done that makes you want to dance on their graves...

Regardless, the IPG which you have history with isn't the same IPG today.. In the last few years, the leadership has changed pretty significantly. Do you actually believe that the organization hasn't changed?

With an incredibly silly reason for the current strike I am wondering if there has been any change or if there was, what was it like before. I have very very little sympathy for overpaid pilot unions in general. Unions for the FA's gets my sympathy.

Regardless, the IPG which you have history with isn't the same IPG today.. In the last few years, the leadership has changed pretty significantly. Do you actually believe that the organization hasn't changed?

The leadership actually hasn't changed one bit. The same political parties who pulled the union strings behind the scenes continue to do so. The cast may have changed, but the leadership has not.

Next time your writing a Whine and Cheez column (or whatever you've moved onto nowadays), maybe this would make a good topic? I would love to hear what they could have done that makes you want to dance on their graves...

No. There are some things that are best kept "within the family". IPG (and AICCA) have blood on their hands and those who know the reasons are better off keeping the stories to themselves.

I digress though. This topic is not about the past sins of the IPG. Better I keep out of it and let a new generation of people realise for themselves just how destructive the IPG can be.

Kingfisher's financial problems are between the Fat One, his board, shareholders and creditors.

guess who the creditors are?
The banks owned by the govt -
and the losses are funded by the taxpayers

The leadership actually hasn't changed one bit. The same political parties who pulled the union strings behind the scenes continue to do so. The cast may have changed, but the leadership has not.



No. There are some things that are best kept "within the family". IPG (and AICCA) have blood on their hands and those who know the reasons are better off keeping the stories to themselves.

I digress though. This topic is not about the past sins of the IPG. Better I keep out of it and let a new generation of people realise for themselves just how destructive the IPG can be.

Judging by the horrible execution of this strike so far, if the IPG have blood on their hands, I'm inclined to think that it's their own.

You, of course, know far more about the IPG's history than I do, so I'm inclined to take your opinion at face value. However, I really do wish that I could get an understanding of the context - realizing for myself seems like a waste of time. As the cliché goes, people learn history so that they don't repeat past mistakes.

Apparently getting fake medical certificates is not so easy after all. If you are an air India pilot and you go to a doctor today, no doctor is willing to hand you a medical certificate, citing report sick and strike and not wanting to get in the middle of stuff. Apparently integrity is still intact with people and you can't buy your way. The world is not such a bad place after all.

Apparently getting fake medical certificates is not so easy after all. If you are an air India pilot and you go to a doctor today, no doctor is willing to hand you a medical certificate, citing report sick and strike and not wanting to get in the middle of stuff. Apparently integrity is still intact with people and you can't buy your way. The world is not such a bad place after all.

From an American doctor it might be easier.

The leadership actually hasn't changed one bit. The same political parties who pulled the union strings behind the scenes continue to do so. The cast may have changed, but the leadership has not.





It's not as easy in India, unlike in Canada where the unions have students fighting for them.
(Protests in YUL that CUPE, an AC union, donated to the Classe, the striking students union )

A funny picture I ran across:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/292231_428108547213614_100000434172856_1438944_194 6172579_n.jpg

A funny picture I ran across:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/292231_428108547213614_100000434172856_1438944_194 6172579_n.jpg

And people say India has not made adequate investments in agriculture and that grain production has not kep pace with the investment. :D

Is it possible to hire pilots on a temporary or permanent basis easily? I am not happy that management is willing to take back those who were sacked. Aren't there IT pilots who would gladly join without inflated egos?

IT pilots flew the 320 and the 330. The air India pilots who are on strike fly the 777 and to some extent the 737. Any pilot who would join would need training on the 777. The duration I that training along with the cost and the route specific training in all would take a minimum of 6 months If I began today and would cost quite a lot of money. The reason air India is not bothered about negotiating with Dw pilots like they did last year with te Icpa pilots is that, that time 20k pax were affected every day whereas here only about 4k are affected. Also air India loses less money keeping the 777 on the ground than if it flew them. This is going to be the best quarter for air India in a long long time.

IT pilots flew the 320 and the 330. The air India pilots who are on strike fly the 777 and to some extent the 737. Any pilot who would join would need training on the 777. The duration I that training along with the cost and the route specific training in all would take a minimum of 6 months If I began today and would cost quite a lot of money. The reason air India is not bothered about negotiating with Dw pilots like they did last year with te Icpa pilots is that, that time 20k pax were affected every day whereas here only about 4k are affected. Also air India loses less money keeping the 777 on the ground than if it flew them. This is going to be the best quarter for air India in a long long time.

Nice way to look at it. But still as I mentioned above hiring IT pilots would be beneficial in the long run. Time to tell pilot unions to take a hike.

Is it possible to hire pilots on a temporary or permanent basis easily? I am not happy that management is willing to take back those who were sacked. Aren't there IT pilots who would gladly join without inflated egos?
shahadil answered your question about why IT pilots aren't being hired nicely - they aren't trained to operate the Boeing fleet, so it would need expensive training.

As for whether it is easy to hire new pilots, the answer is yes on the 737, not really on the 747 and absolutely not on the 777. The vast majority of striking pilots are 777 pilots.

Right now, there is a shortage of 777 type-rated pilots worldwide, but airlines are unwilling to jump into training new ones because the training is so expensive. Carriers like Air Canada and Emirates are understaffed when it comes to 777 pilots.

If you were to go and pay for your own 777 type rating, your employment prospects would be good. But whether your salary would cover the cost of the type rating is another story... As I've said already, 777 training is expensive.

And that's one reason the pilots expect AI to take them back - these pilots are difficult to replace.

The reason air India is not bothered about negotiating with Dw pilots like they did last year with te Icpa pilots is that, that time 20k pax were affected every day whereas here only about 4k are affected. Air India's domestic operations are far more vital to the Indian economy than the international operations ever will be. That said, AI is interested in negotioating simply because stemming the losses is important - and the restructuring/bailout package passed recently has thresholds that AI must meet in all kinds of operational parameters. This strike has killed AI's cancellation rate, delay rate, etc. And that will hurt when it's time for the money to be released.


Also air India loses less money keeping the 777 on the ground than if it flew them. This is going to be the best quarter for air India in a long long time.
Not true at all. AI is reeling from the costs of this strike. It's going to be a terrible quarter.

The 777 operations lose money, yes, but there are very significant costs that come with grounding aircraft as well. The unexpected nature of this grounding also has very serious costs.

shahadil answered your question about why IT pilots aren't being hired nicely - they aren't trained to operate the Boeing fleet, so it would need expensive training.

As for whether it is easy to hire new pilots, the answer is yes on the 737, not really on the 747 and absolutely not on the 777. The vast majority of striking pilots are 777 pilots.

Right now, there is a shortage of 777 type-rated pilots worldwide, but airlines are unwilling to jump into training new ones because the training is so expensive. Carriers like Air Canada and Emirates are understaffed when it comes to 777 pilots.

If you were to go and pay for your own 777 type rating, your employment prospects would be good. But whether your salary would cover the cost of the type rating is another story... As I've said already, 777 training is expensive.

And that's one reason the pilots expect AI to take them back - these pilots are difficult to replace.

Air India's domestic operations are far more vital to the Indian economy than the international operations ever will be. That said, AI is interested in negotioating simply because stemming the losses is important - and the restructuring/bailout package passed recently has thresholds that AI must meet in all kinds of operational parameters. This strike has killed AI's cancellation rate, delay rate, etc. And that will hurt when it's time for the money to be released.


Not true at all. AI is reeling from the costs of this strike. It's going to be a terrible quarter.

The 777 operations lose money, yes, but there are very significant costs that come with grounding aircraft as well. The unexpected nature of this grounding also has very serious costs.

It would be fun to see if AI could hire some of the AC pilots.
(They got rid of some 763, so they could easily fly 77W/77L)

It would be fun to see if AI could hire some of the AC pilots.
(They got rid of some 763, so they could easily fly 77W/77L)

AC has 5 more 77Ws that will be inducted soon, and they are also looking at leasing 5 of AI's 77Ls. I don't think their pilot shortage will end anytime soon.

AC has 5 more 77Ws that will be inducted soon, and they are also looking at leasing 5 of AI's 77Ls. I don't think their pilot shortage will end anytime soon.

It will last longer, because of the new pension rates...

A funny picture I ran across:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/292231_428108547213614_100000434172856_1438944_194 6172579_n.jpg

Apparently Naresh Goyal isn't the only EK fan :D:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s320x320/551079_432046263486509_100000434172856_1449092_992 879507_n.jpg

Apparently Naresh Goyal isn't the only EK fan :D:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s320x320/551079_432046263486509_100000434172856_1449092_992 879507_n.jpg

Who is this talented, aviation-loving cartoonist?

Who is this talented, aviation-loving cartoonist?

No clue - it was forwarded to me by the IPG.

Looks very similar to the hindustan times cartoonist:

http://images.blogs.hindustantimes.com/dabs-and-jabs/post/Weight%20loss-Maharaja%20style.jpg

Looks very similar to the hindustan times cartoonist:

http://images.blogs.hindustantimes.com/dabs-and-jabs/post/Weight%20loss-Maharaja%20style.jpg

Except they have completely contrary messages... The first is blaming the Minister for AI's problems. The second is blaming AI for its problems...

The one I posted is about 2 years old... I was just comparing styles :D

The one I posted is about 2 years old... I was just comparing styles :D

Still relevant today :D

BBC: Air India to hire pilots (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-18337351)

India's Aviation Minister Ajit Singh has said new pilots will be hired to take over from the striking pilots of the national carrier, Air India.

The minister also announced that the first international flight of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner plane would be in August from Mumbai to London.

More than 200 pilots have been on strike for 30 days in a dispute over training to fly the Dreamliner.

BBC: Air India to hire pilots (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-18337351)

The minister said that the sacked pilots would have to reapply for their jobs if they wanted to come back and it was up to Air India management to decide if they wanted to sack more of the striking pilots.
AI needs a new contract with all its pilots. They are over paid, not just marginally, but a wide margin. As far as I remember, their salaries are comparable, maybe even higher than salaries at some U.S. airlines.
As long as there is a shortage of pilots in India, Indian pilots should not be allowed to join foreign carriers. It's not unusual for an employer or a Govt to prevent employees, for whose training the former has paid, from working for a competitor. Competitor definition can easily include any airline competing for pilots (not just for passengers).

I'd be careful about complimenting the minister on this idea to hire pilots - it very well could be just a back door for sacked pilots to be re-hired. I wouldn't put anything past the GoI.

BBC: Air India to hire pilots (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-18337351)

^^ to GoI. So refreshing to see the government take a tough stand for once. But as PVD says I hope this is not a back door entry for the striking pilots.

I'd be careful about complimenting the minister on this idea to hire pilots - it very well could be just a back door for sacked pilots to be re-hired. I wouldn't put anything past the GoI.
Does AI have any choice other than

Grounding aircraft operated by striking pilots until it can train newly hired pilots, and continue with reduced network
Re-hire striking pilots?

AI should offer all pilots new contract. They can accept it or be unemployed. The management should remain firm. The Govt could put AI under essential services and revive "Essential Services Maintenance Act of 1981.


[/QUOTE=Essential Services Act 1981]....
(3) Sections 8 and 9 shall come into force at once and the remaining provisions of this Act shall be deemed to have come into force on the 26th day of July, 1981.
(4) It shall cease to have effect on the expiry of [1] [nine years] from the date on which this Act receives the assent of the President except as respects things done or omitted to be done before such cesser of operation of this Act, and Section 6 of the General Clauses Act, 1897 (10 of 1897) shall apply upon such cesser of operation of this Act as if it had then been repealed by a Central Act.
...Defn of essential services......
(ii) any railway service or any transport service for the carriage of passengers or goods by air or any other transport service for the carriage of passengers or goods by land or water with respect to which Parliament has power to make laws;
3. Power to prohibit strikes in certain employments. ? (1) If the Central
Government is satisfied that in the public interest it is necessary or expedient so to do, it may, by general or special Order, prohibit strikes in any essential service specified in the Order.

5. Penalty for illegal strikes. ? Any person who commences? a strike which is illegal under this Act or goes or remains on, or otherwise take part in, any such strike shall be punishable with imprisonment for a term which may extend to six months, or with fine which may extend to one thousand rupees, or with both.
6. Penalty for instigation, etc. ? Any person who instigates or incities other persons to take part in, or otherwise acts in furtherance of, a strike which is illegal under this Act shall be punishable with imprisonment for a term which may extend to one year, or with fine which may extend to two thousand rupees, or with both.

[/QUOTE]
Sections 8 and nine prohibit lockouts and layoffs which are not relevant here.
The act needs to be amended so that punishment is stiffer so that the act has some teeth, instead of being a slap on the wrist.
It's time to be serious and play hardball if that's what IPG wants.
How expensive would be to borrow and train an IAF transport pilot?

I'd be careful about complimenting the minister on this idea to hire pilots - it very well could be just a back door for sacked pilots to be re-hired. I wouldn't put anything past the GoI.
It doesn't really matter who AI hires. For all I care, they can be the sacked pilots. What matters it that they are well-trained/reliable and that they're salaries are in line with market rates for this geographic region.

Does AI have any choice other than

Grounding aircraft operated by striking pilots until it can train newly hired pilots, and continue with reduced network
Re-hire striking pilots?

AI should offer all pilots new contract. They can accept it or be unemployed.
Yes, AI does have another option: continue with the reduced network until it eventually shuts down AI.

This is going off on a tangent... it is not really clear why the government should be in the business of providing air transportation. In fact, Ajit Singh said so himself.

Yes, AI does have another option: continue with the reduced network until it eventually shuts down AI.

This is going off on a tangent... it is not really clear why the government should be in the business of providing air transportation. In fact, Ajit Singh said so himself.
The issue was resolving the current situation premised on survival of AI
Agreed, the Govt should not be in the business of providing transport. But as long as it is, it should not be blackmailed by a union. Government does have an interest and obligation to ensure that essential services are not interrupted. Shutting AI down is not a solution IMO. Privatising it is. As of now, it's not a "sellable" airline.
Jet Airways and other airlines are not up to meeting traffic within and to/from India either.
You kill AI, you strengthen foreign airlines to the extent that no Indian carrier will be able to compete.

Yes, AI does have another option: continue with the reduced network until it eventually shuts down AI.

This is going off on a tangent... it is not really clear why the government should be in the business of providing air transportation. In fact, Ajit Singh said so himself.

It is seen as an essential service because many industries (logistics, manufacturing, etc.) rely on air transportation.

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Galaxy S: Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 2.3.6; en-us; SGH-T959V Build/GINGERBREAD) AppleWebKit/533.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile Safari/533.1)

Yes, AI does have another option: continue with the reduced network until it eventually shuts down AI.

This is going off on a tangent... it is not really clear why the government should be in the business of providing air transportation. In fact, Ajit Singh said so himself.

It is seen as an essential service because many industries (logistics, manufacturing, etc.) rely on air transportation.

Precisely. One's personal feelings about airlines is a matter of preference. I don't think there is anyone here who feels that the govt should be running an airline. There are lots of corporations run by the govt. This is, by no means, meant to endorse government's running of the airline. Killing the airline at a time when there is no Indian carrier capable of satisfying the market in India is further invitation to the likes of LH pursue its own agenda, and leaving travellers from/to at the mercy of EK, QR, EY and LH. If IPG wants to play hardball, GoI should play with all the muscle it has.

The issue was resolving the current situation premised on survival of AI
Agreed, the Govt should not be in the business of providing transport. But as long as it is, it should not be blackmailed by a union.
Agreed that the govt should not be blackmailed by a union (or even vice versa, should the situation arise).

Government does have an interest and obligation to ensure that essential services are not interrupted. Shutting AI down is not a solution IMO. Privatising it is. As of now, it's not a "sellable" airline.

This depends on a detailed cost-benefit analysis. Agreed that AI is not "sellable" today. But is making it sellable worth the cost it will take to get AI to that stage? IMO, AI will never be sellable. AI is not sellable today largely because of its high labor cost. And it remain like that unless the govt breaks the union and fires a whole bunch of people, which they will never do.



Jet Airways and other airlines are not up to meeting traffic within and to/from India either.
There are not many routes that AI operates that Jet and others do not. And most of them already have higher market shares than AI on those routes. I don't see why they couldn't pick up the slack if AI gradually phased out its operations.


You kill AI, you strengthen foreign airlines to the extent that no Indian carrier will be able to compete.
The extent to which foreign airlines are strengthened can be managed with regulation.

How expensive would be to borrow and train an IAF transport pilot?

Very expensive.

It doesn't really matter who AI hires. For all I care, they can be the sacked pilots. What matters it that they are well-trained/reliable and that they're salaries are in line with market rates for this geographic region.

That sounds great in theory, but if they go on strike again to get their pay back to where it was, then AI is back to square one..

The issue was resolving the current situation premised on survival of AI
Agreed, the Govt should not be in the business of providing transport. But as long as it is, it should not be blackmailed by a union. Government does have an interest and obligation to ensure that essential services are not interrupted. Shutting AI down is not a solution IMO. Privatising it is. As of now, it's not a "sellable" airline.
Jet Airways and other airlines are not up to meeting traffic within and to/from India either.
You kill AI, you strengthen foreign airlines to the extent that no Indian carrier will be able to compete.

^

The extent to which foreign airlines are strengthened can be managed with regulation.

a) the government cannot randomly change bilaterals without serious effects to the economy
b) holding back foreign carriers would be creating a supply shortage, which would be harmful to other areas of the economy.

That sounds great in theory, but if they go on strike again to get their pay back to where it was, then AI is back to square one..
Any pilot AI hires may go on strike to demand a higher salary. Your concern is not limited to a certain class of pilots. As long as AI's salaries are in line with market rates, I do not think this is an issue.



a) the government cannot randomly change bilaterals without serious effects to the economy
b) holding back foreign carriers would be creating a supply shortage, which would be harmful to other areas of the economy.
I do not understand your argument. Foreign carriers are, for the most part, already at their max capacity allowed by the bilaterals. So there is no concern of them ruling India. What I am suggesting is that 9W and others can pick up the slack (in the Indian allowance) left by AI.

Any pilot AI hires may go on strike to demand a higher salary. Your concern is not limited to a certain class of pilots. As long as AI's salaries are in line with market rates, I do not think this is an issue.

That's true.

I do not understand your argument. Foreign carriers are, for the most part, already at their max capacity allowed by the bilaterals. So there is no concern of them ruling India. What I am suggesting is that 9W and others can pick up the slack (in the Indian allowance) left by AI.

AI going down would mean the largest drop in capacity would be India-USA. Since India and USA have open skies, UA/DL/AA/US could easily fill the market. And once they are entrenched, it would be hard for an Indian carrier to "claim the market back."

I guess 9W could try to serve the market with their 77Ws though...

There are many bilaterals which are not maxed out, or even utilized at all, and carriers from many of those countries would certainly expand to India if almost 20% of the capacity in the market disappeared.

This depends on a detailed cost-benefit analysis. Agreed that AI is not "sellable" today. But is making it sellable worth the cost it will take to get AI to that stage? IMO, AI will never be sellable. AI is not sellable today largely because of its high labor cost. And it remain like that unless the govt breaks the union and fires a whole bunch of people, which they will never do.
Agreed on high labour cost. That needs to be addressed. That's why I think AI must negotiate a new contract with AI pilots. Some functions need to be outsourced. What I would like to ask those who have sung praises of private carriers, 9W and IT, first and now others, why are they so sure today that Indigo and Spice Jet or what ever other favourite airline of the moment can face the big wolves from Europe and the Middle East? Not too long ago, they could do no wrong. Surely you remember, the accolades given to IT and 9W. As of today, no Indian carrier inspires confidence. It;s more likely to have Bombay freeze.
If AI were given away, in a fire sale, to an Indian carrier, which of the two darlings of this forum, do you think can do a better job with what they get practically for free? Kingfisher or Jet Airways? :p

There are not many routes that AI operates that Jet and others do not. And most of them already have higher market shares than AI on those routes. I don't see why they couldn't pick up the slack if AI gradually phased out its operations.
Cost benefit of not having essential services? How about cost benefits of not having postal service, the railways, public sector banks, Govt labs, the armed forces?
What has prevented W9 from thriving. Two of its competitors are paralysed. There is a thread about 9W cancelling routes, and another one on it using one world software, obtained legally, or illegally, without even making basic changes.
In the wake of AI troubles they had/have perfect opportunity to demonstrate their competence. Has W9 any headway in taking advantage of this opportunity?
AI should phase out its operations gradually? Why? I thought AI stunk to high heaven by conventional wisdom around here, it should die yesterday. India is not ready for only private airlines yet.

The extent to which foreign airlines are strengthened can be managed with regulation.What regulation? Do you think GoI can unilaterally end all the agreements? Do you think Jet, Indiogo, SpicecJet can meet the demand?

I do not understand your argument. Foreign carriers are, for the most part, already at their max capacity allowed by the bilaterals. So there is no concern of them ruling India. What I am suggesting is that 9W and others can pick up the slack (in the Indian allowance) left by AI.

There is slack right now, as we speak. Is Jet Positioned to take the advantage? ON the contrary, we hear about cancellations.

another hilarious picture from the IPG:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/576843_10150999741985944_287614731_n.jpg

Regarding this whole essential services argument, I think that in a developing country like India, air transport is not an essential service. Most transport of passengers and goods in India is by road. Air transport is miniscule. So shutting down AI will barely hurt the Indian economy. (Note I said shutting down AI, not all air transport- I agree we need some basic services which 9W, IT, etc can provide).

You may argue that air transport was not useful to a developing India but will be useful in the future to a developed India. I agree with that. But we have a long way to go to be developed. And AI will not take us there. The government's money is much better spent building world class highways and ports than it is on AI.

I understand your arguments about slack in the bilaterals and how some foreign carriers will capitalize on that should AI shut down. I could care less if a foreign airline picked up the slack. Passenger airlines have never been a profitable business. The only reason they survive is because they have special endowments (like practically free fuel for mid east carriers) or are backed by governments that really want them to survive (like almost any other carrier in the world). So if a foreign government wants to subsidize the cost of Indians flying abroad, then why not let them?

My bottom line is that GoI should not be in a business that IMHO is neither essential (at least in the near-mid future) nor is profitable.

AI going down would mean the largest drop in capacity would be India-USA. Since India and USA have open skies, UA/DL/AA/US could easily fill the market. And once they are entrenched, it would be hard for an Indian carrier to "claim the market back."

I guess 9W could try to serve the market with their 77Ws though...

There are many bilaterals which are not maxed out, or even utilized at all, and carriers from many of those countries would certainly expand to India if almost 20% of the capacity in the market disappeared.

AI operates one flight a day to ORD, EWR, JFK and YYZ. So AI shutting down this route is only 4 India-US flights gone.

ULH routes are quite unprofitable and so I doubt UA/DL/AA/US will bother filling this slack. If they really wanted to fly these routes, they could do it now. Indians would happily switch over to them given their preference (perhaps unjustified) that everything foreign is better.

The bigger concern is the loss of many India-MidEast routes if AI shuts down. And then you have some concern that the Mid East carriers will pick up the slack and form a monopoly and charge passengers accordingly.

But please note that I am not suggesting AI should be fully shut down. Just the unprofitable routes should be. The Gulf routes are quite profitable. There is no need for AI to cease operations on those routes. Also, AI and AX are probably "essential" services on many of the Middle East routes so the government should be in that business.

I don't why this is so but running an airline seems to become a big "prestige" issue with even so-called hard-nosed private individuals turning cross-eyed at the thought of letting their albatrosses sink - cue IT and the Fat Man. Given this, its less surprising that Air India is being kept afloat like a patient on life-support by the GoI - since its a "national pride" issue to have a national flag carrier. Hell will freeze over I'm guessing before we let Pakistan, China and our other little playground buddies have national airlines while we don't

This entire mess of AI could have been solved but Praful ....ing Patel had to go .... it up with the cockeyed merger he pushed through. Atleast before that, you had AI,IA and AX as separate entities with distinct balance sheets and revenues that you could work on optimizing. Now you have the spaghetti soup of NACIL and divergent pay structures, contracts and what not. A gordian knot that can only be cut by renegotiating every contract on NACIL's book, even if the airline has to be kept in dry dock for the next 1-2 years for it to be pushed through

Regarding this whole essential services argument, I think that in a developing country like India, air transport is not an essential service.
You don't think the British built railways in India to benefit the poor. A viable, air transport system, for a country as large as India, even if poor, is essential.
[QUOTE=hyderago;18725930]Most transport of passengers and goods in India is by road. Air transport is miniscule.
I would agree with you that it makes little difference to a vast majority of Indians. In this sense, this community, FlyerTalk, is irrelevant. How can one claim that FTer's know what India needs?
So shutting down AI will barely hurt the Indian economy.
(Note I said shutting down AI, not all air transport- I agree we need some basic services which 9W, IT, etc can provide).
It has been discussed previously, what shutting down AI will do. AI should not be shutdown until India has a survivable airline, not just personal empires. Do we know IT will be there tomorrow? None of the private carriers inspires confidence.
You may argue that air transport was not useful to a developing India but will be useful in the future to a developed India. I agree with that. And AI will not take us there.But we have a long way to go to be developed.
I am not making development argument, you are, nor have I said AI will take us there. If aviation is irrelevant, how about if the govt imposes 300-500% duty on all wide bodies and all aircraft other than short-medium haul. What you call basic services can be provided by short-medium range aircraft and trains.
The government's money is much better spent building world class highways and ports than it is on AI.Do you think there will be or there is no wastage/theft in those activities?
Why should the Govt build airports and world class highways any better than it runs an airline?. Percentage of people who need an airport is miniscule. Will the vast majority drive to the airport in their SUV on a world class airport, even thought they can't afford to fly?

I understand your arguments about slack in the bilaterals and how some foreign carriers will capitalize on that should AI shut down. I could care less if a foreign airline picked up the slack. Passenger airlines have never been a profitable business. The only reason they survive is because they have special endowments (like practically free fuel for mid east carriers) or are backed by governments that really want them to survive (like almost any other carrier in the world). So if a foreign government wants to subsidize the cost of Indians flying abroad, then why not let them?
My bottom line is that GoI should not be in a business that IMHO is neither essential (at least in the near-mid future) nor is profitable.
That the Govt has no business being in Airline business has been my opinion all along. We are in agreement on that point.
On an individual basis, in the short term, there is nothing wrong with having your flight subsidies by a foreign carrier. There is nothing to stop a provider from raising fares when the competition has been quashed. You don't think an airline will continue to fly people cheaply when there is no competition.
You are OK with a foreign Govt giving subsidies to a foreign airline but cry foul when your Govt does it?
One sense I get from your arguments, is that foreign subsides, foreign ideas, are good. :D) It'sok, even essential, to criticise your Govt, and Govt owned businesses, but to do it just for the sake of doing it achieves nothing..

You don't think the British built railways in India to benefit the poor. A viable, air transport system, for a country as large as India, even if poor, is essential.
I agree that air transportation is, to an extent, an essential service. But I don't think that it is so essential that the government needs to be involved, especially when there are enough Indian and foreign carriers providing this service.
Now this is more a matter of opinion and I understand that other may not agree with me on how "essential" air transportation is.

I would agree with you that it makes little difference to a vast majority of Indians. In this sense, this community, FlyerTalk, is irrelevant. How can one claim that FTer's know what India needs?
Sad, but true. FT is just for us to have fun. Doesn't do a darn thing for developing our country.


Do you think there will be or there is no wastage/theft in those activities? Why should the Govt build airports and world class highways any better than it runs an airline?. Percentage of people who need an airport is miniscule. Will the vast majority drive to the airport in their SUV on a world class airport, even thought they can't afford to fly?
There will likely be waste in any activity the govt undertakes. But I would rather the outcome of the activity be something that benefits the masses than the elite.
Having good roads will help more than those who have nice cars. A major problem in India is that agricultural products often get spoilt on the trip from rural to urban areas because the trip simply takes too long. Building good highways and railways will cut this time down dramatically and lower food costs for the urban poor. This is not just my opinion. I have seen many development economists back up this claim with empirical analysis.

That the Govt has no business being in Airline business has been my opinion all along. We are in agreement on that point.
On an individual basis, in the short term, there is nothing wrong with having your flight subsidies by a foreign carrier. There is nothing to stop a provider from raising fares when the competition has been quashed. You don't think an airline will continue to fly people cheaply when there is no competition.
You are OK with a foreign Govt giving subsidies to a foreign airline but cry foul when your Govt does it?
I am not saying that our government should not give subsidies. I just think that since the govt has only so much money to spend, the subsidies should go to the most essential services. In my opinion air transport is not that essential. But, as I said earlier, since neither of us have hard data, it is more a matter of opinion. I think that we should agree to disagree.


One sense I get from your arguments, is that foreign subsides, foreign ideas, are good. :D) It'sok, even essential, to criticise your Govt, and Govt owned businesses, but to do it just for the sake of doing it achieves nothing..
This I don't agree with. See my position above.

I don't why this is so but running an airline seems to become a big "prestige" issue with even so-called hard-nosed private individuals turning cross-eyed at the thought of letting their albatrosses sink - cue IT and the Fat Man. Given this, its less surprising that Air India is being kept afloat like a patient on life-support by the GoI - since its a "national pride" issue to have a national flag carrier. Hell will freeze over I'm guessing before we let Pakistan, China and our other little playground buddies have national airlines while we don't
At the end of the day, prestige is not a big deal, especially since only a tiny fraction of the people use air travel.
I think the politicians are more pragmatic than you think. The babus want to be able to fly first class for free. This will not be possible if AI is privatized or shut down.

I don't why this is so but running an airline seems to become a big "prestige" issue with even so-called hard-nosed private individuals turning cross-eyed at the thought of letting their albatrosses sink - cue IT and the Fat Man. Given this, its less surprising that Air India is being kept afloat like a patient on life-support by the GoI - since its a "national pride" issue to have a national flag carrier. Hell will freeze over I'm guessing before we let Pakistan, China and our other little playground buddies have national airlines while we don't

This entire mess of AI could have been solved but Praful ....ing Patel had to go .... it up with the cockeyed merger he pushed through. Atleast before that, you had AI,IA and AX as separate entities with distinct balance sheets and revenues that you could work on optimizing. Now you have the spaghetti soup of NACIL and divergent pay structures, contracts and what not. A gordian knot that can only be cut by renegotiating every contract on NACIL's book, even if the airline has to be kept in dry dock for the next 1-2 years for it to be pushed through
You make good points. Merger was not necessarily a bad idea. Instead of total merger, the three airlines could have continued to operate as separate entities under one code. A complete merger can be more efficient too. If the merged unit cannot extract waste and duplication and make the merged unit more efficient than the sum of its parts, it was clearly not done properly.
None of the three, AI, IT and 9W, is thriving right now. Looking at IT and 9W, it can be concluded that private model as developed by IT and 9W has not been successful either.
I don't want to draw parallels or contrast with Pakistan, China or any other country. Each has its own history of development.
In my opinion, government has a role to play in development. When private investment is not available, it's imperative that the govt step in, like Indira Gandhi did in nationalising banks in 1968/69. Once investment has reached where it was not going before, the govt should turn businesses over to private investors.
I don't know the rationale behind nationalisation of AI. I would be interested in learning the why. I am not looking for simplistic answers such as Socialist policies of Nehru. Clearly not everything was nationalised. I doubt it was simple "national pride" issue.

Where I disagree with you is keeping AI in dry dock for one-two years, but I am ok with reduced operations inorder to bring striking pilots down to earth. I am for a speedier action. All contracts between the owners, and employees, as well as owners and providers/suppliers, need to be re-negotiated toute de suite with a clear timetable of turning the airline into private hands, even at a loss. Killing India will not automatically ensure success of private airlines.
Ownership based on "personal prestige" is no better than "national pride". There are issues that ail all airlines. Private airlines are not immune to pilferage, and even smuggling by crew. Problems, such as pilferage and/or low level smuggling arising from misuse of one's place in the machinery exist across the board in both, private and public sector. These are long terms issues that we can't address here.

What would happen if India allowed cabotage?
You might even get UDU on your domestic fights!
There would be more than enough competition to keep fares low.
Especially since I think that one of the first carriers to enter the market would be EK.

No, cabotage is a bad idea. And it would never fly in protectionist India anyway.

Especially since I think that one of the first carriers to enter the market would be EK.

EK could never compete domestically in India, even if they were granted full cabotage. Their model is based upon high density widebody traffic flow via a central hub. India's geography and traffic patterns are simply not compatible with that.

EK could never compete domestically in India, even if they were granted full cabotage. Their model is based upon high density widebody traffic flow via a central hub. India's geography and traffic patterns are simply not compatible with that.
I agree with you, but not for the reason you mentioned. I think that EK would tailor its Indian strategy to account for local economic and geographic conditions.
Afaik, EK is profitable primarily because of the low landing fees and essentially free fuel at DXB. If it has to pay landing fees at Indian airports (which are among the highest in the world) and buy fuel at Indian prices, it will be as unprofitable as any Indian carrier.

I agree with you, but not for the reason you mentioned. I think that EK would tailor its Indian strategy to account for local economic and geographic conditions.
Afaik, EK is profitable primarily because of the low landing fees and essentially free fuel at DXB. If it has to pay landing fees at Indian airports (which are among the highest in the world) and buy fuel at Indian prices, it will be as unprofitable as any Indian carrier.

There is another reason why airlines flying through the middle east are better positioned.
Other than business travellers, there are two categories of people travelling to India from Europe and North America. Indians living in Europe and North America and other tourists. Summer, and Christmas/New Years are a high season for Indians to travel to India, but not for tourists. Both of these times are high season for TATL travel, which makes availability tight on airlines connecting in Europe. On the other hand, connections in Dubai, for example do not experience the pressure of summer and Christmas to the same extent.

Flying is not for the elite. Ask the gulf workers from south Indian airports who use flights to get to their place of work. A Kerala to gulf flight is an hour longer than Bombay to gulf, yet air India charge the same fare. Which incidentally is way lower than what ek charge for the same route. How many flights does jet airways do from Kerala I gulf compared to air India.

As for air India pilots being paid way more than anywhere in the world, I would request you to present this fact with factual information. If air India pilots were paid the maximum. They would not be leaving in droves for ek, ey, or qr.

The top 10-20 pilots in air India do get a lot more than their peers, but for their post and experience there salary is comparable to any other airline. Of course they would be highly paid if you compared the director operations salary with 35 years experience to a newly released commander of say jet airways with 5 years experience.


Air India will not be shut for
1) subsidized gulf operations
2) north east and Kashmir connectivity
3) army charters
4) VIP flights for Indian and foreign dignitaries
5) rerouting aircraft for govt. work
6) carriage of radio active medicinal isotopes
7) carriage of stretchers

Afaik, EK is profitable primarily because of the low landing fees and essentially free fuel at DXB.

:rolleyes:

I'd dispute that Emirates airline is truly profitable (as opposed to Emirates Group), but the myth about "essentially free fuel in Dubai" is nothing but a myth. Jet A-1 in Dubai is not significantly cheaper than elsewhere and Emirates' average fuel costs are not significantly lower than its competitors.

It must help that striking is illegal in the UAe and most middle east countries.

EK, EY, QR and Gf (in yesteryears) are successful because of one thing and one thing only.....they are in the centre of the world and means that their respective hubs allow one connection flights from one point on earth to another. It is all down to passenger convenience.

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Flying is not for the elite. Ask the gulf workers from south Indian airports who use flights to get to their place of work. A Kerala to gulf flight is an hour longer than Bombay to gulf, yet air India charge the same fare. Which incidentally is way lower than what ek charge for the same route. How many flights does jet airways do from Kerala I gulf compared to air India.

As for air India pilots being paid way more than anywhere in the world, I would request you to present this fact with factual information. If air India pilots were paid the maximum. They would not be leaving in droves for ek, ey, or qr.

The top 10-20 pilots in air India do get a lot more than their peers, but for their post and experience there salary is comparable to any other airline. Of course they would be highly paid if you compared the director operations salary with 35 years experience to a newly released commander of say jet airways with 5 years experience.


Air India will not be shut for
1) subsidized gulf operations
2) north east and Kashmir connectivity
3) army charters
4) VIP flights for Indian and foreign dignitaries
5) rerouting aircraft for govt. work
6) carriage of radio active medicinal isotopes
7) carriage of stretchers

I did not say that AI pilots are paid highest salaries in the industry, but that they are overpaid. A hundred thousand dollars goes a lot further in India than the U.S or northern India. Whether pilots' salaries should be compared to the industry in OECD countties or to other professions in India is adifferent issue. Other professionals in India do not command salaries commensurate with OECD living costs.
Many prifessionals have returned to India at salaries much lower than what they were drawing in other countries because of pur chasing power effect.
Ultimately, the market should determine salaries. The issue is which market? Pilots jobs are mobile, which gives them an opportunity to move to other airlines. The practice of paying higher salaries to foreign pilots hired by Indian carriers puts an upward pressure on expecrations of Indian pilots.

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I did not say that AI pilots are paid highest salaries in the industry, but that they are overpaid. A hundred thousand dollars goes a lot further in India than the U.S or northern India. Whether pilots' salaries should be compared to the industry in OECD countties or to other professions in India is adifferent issue. Other professionals in India do not command salaries commensurate with OECD living costs.
Many prifessionals have returned to India at salaries much lower than what they were drawing in other countries because of pur chasing power effect.
Ultimately, the market should determine salaries. The issue is which market? Pilots jobs are mobile, which gives them an opportunity to move to other airlines. The practice of paying higher salaries to foreign pilots hired by Indian carriers puts an upward pressure on expecrations of Indian pilots.

India is messed up....a trolley dolly ( sorry a flight attendent and my wife was one) earns about 40k per month whilst a call centre worker earns 25k compared to a graduate who earns about 18k whilst shockingly a university lecturer earns about 12k.

So yes any pilots in India earning 8-9 lakhs pr month are severely overpaid.

Until India is able to sort out it's inverted pay scales....it will always suffer from the brain drain.

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I did not say that AI pilots are paid highest salaries in the industry, but that they are overpaid. A hundred thousand dollars goes a lot further in India than the U.S or northern India. Whether pilots' salaries should be compared to the industry in OECD countties or to other professions in India is adifferent issue. Other professionals in India do not command salaries commensurate with OECD living costs.
Many prifessionals have returned to India at salaries much lower than what they were drawing in other countries because of pur chasing power effect.
Ultimately, the market should determine salaries. The issue is which market? Pilots jobs are mobile, which gives them an opportunity to move to other airlines. The practice of paying higher salaries to foreign pilots hired by Indian carriers puts an upward pressure on expecrations of Indian pilots.

India is messed up....a trolley dolly ( sorry a flight attendent and my wife was one) earns about 40k per month whilst a call centre worker earns 25k compared to a graduate who earns about 18k whilst shockingly a university lecturer earns about 12k.

So yes any pilots in India earning 8-9 lakhs pr month are severely overpaid.

Until India is able to sort out it's inverted pay scales....it will always suffer from the brain drain.

Yes India is messed up. It's due to the fact that some professions offer more mobility. Withe way salaries havw gone up in IT, especially BPO, India is pricing itself out. Are you sure about the 12k salary for a university lecturer? I know that an ex-principal retired from a Govt school in Delhi around 1990 draws a 26k pension. A lectuter at a central university would start around 45 at least. I also know a social workee at a govt hospital drawing around 36k.

It must help that striking is illegal in the UAe and most middle east countries.

EK, EY, QR and Gf (in yesteryears) are successful because of one thing and one thing only.....they are in the centre of the world and means that their respective hubs allow one connection flights from one point on earth to another. It is all down to passenger convenience.

Not quite.
I wouldn't fly YVR-DXB-HKG even if it was the same cost as CX even if I got the same miles as YVR-HKG nonstop on CX.
It's too long of a flight to fly TATL even if both were on the 77L/388.
Not to mention that I can access the lounge in both YVR and HKG.
Even to BKK I would rather connect in ICN/NRT/HKG/PVG/SIN if they still flew to YVR.
And, even at 100% miles, connecting in DXB wouldn't help jetlag.

I did not say that AI pilots are paid highest salaries in the industry, but that they are overpaid. A hundred thousand dollars goes a lot further in India than the U.S or northern India. Whether pilots' salaries should be compared to the industry in OECD countties or to other professions in India is adifferent issue. Other professionals in India do not command salaries commensurate with OECD living costs
While that's true, you also have to remember that these pilots are outside the country for half the year...

:rolleyes:

I'd dispute that Emirates airline is truly profitable (as opposed to Emirates Group), but the myth about "essentially free fuel in Dubai" is nothing but a myth. Jet A-1 in Dubai is not significantly cheaper than elsewhere and Emirates' average fuel costs are not significantly lower than its competitors.
In that case, I guess I was wrong about the drivers of EK's profits. :o

While that's true, you also have to remember that these pilots are outside the country for half the year...

Most AI pilots do not live abroad for half the year. The days they spend overseas, they receive a per diem in addition to their salary.

EK, EY, QR and Gf (in yesteryears) are successful because of one thing and one thing only.....they are in the centre of the world and means that their respective hubs allow one connection flights from one point on earth to another. It is all down to passenger convenience.
Delhi is just as much the center of the world as the gulf is. Why can't AI fly passengers from all over India to EU/NA via DEL? Also, DEL can just as likely serve as a hub for traffic from Europe to SE Asia, the Orient and Oceania as DXB/DOH/AUH can.

Most AI pilots do not live abroad for half the year. The days they spend overseas, they receive a per diem in addition to their salary.

That additional compensation which they receive for the days they are overseas is included in the salary numbers you see for their salaries.

AI employees are on a government pay scale - the additional compensation for international spending/PLIs are more than the base pay they get.

While that's true, you also have to remember that these pilots are outside the country for half the year...

This is true only nominally. They don't live outside the country. They sleep, and sometimes eat outside India, for which they get per diem, don't they?
Home is where you are when not travelling. Their home is India.
If I wanted to be picky, I would question your "half the year" claim.

Delhi is just as much the center of the world as the gulf is. Why can't AI fly passengers from all over India to EU/NA via DEL? Also, DEL can just as likely serve as a hub for traffic from Europe to SE Asia, the Orient and Oceania as DXB/DOH/AUH can.

That's because most perople, especially those who start hyperventilating when they think AI might join Star Alliance, think that getting out of India without stopping in India is better than stopping in FRA, or DXB/AUH/DOH.
I suppose they want to maximise there "phoreign" time, onset of which is delayed if they travel via another Indian city. :p
I also think there is lots of provincialism/parochialism in India too. For some reason, it makes people feel better about their city or themselves if they can get on an international flight without going to another city in India. Sala goli marta hai. If he was going to London, why did he get an AI flight to Delhi? just kidding. :D
People justified nonstop flights from their city to LAX, SFO, ORD, IAH on Indian carriers. It wasn't just the famous BLR-SFO, but there were other suggestions such as MAA-ORD because there were lots of Tamils in Chicago area (or some such suggestion). My take is that it increases their "kool factor", or something that makes them feel good about flying in a nonstop international flight from their city.
LH BA, and even KLM began flights to cities other than BOM/DEL. Since there is no possibility of LH offering nonstop from even BLR-SFO, (;) flying BLR-FRA or MAA-DXB is next best thing.

Salary in Indian airlines and air India is linked to govt. pay scale as it is a psu. And indeed 20 years back that is what they got. However, with the arrival of private airlines and th poaching that happened there were 2 levels of raises given, so as to retain the employees. 92 and 96 I think. However, since the govt. pay scale is limited, a way needed to be derived to give market rates whereas At the same time keep it within the govt. payscale. So you ended up with page 1 which was the govt. scale where basic pay starts at 8500 rupees with an increment of 150 rupees per year. This Along on vda and various other allowances makes up page 1 not exceeding 30-35k per month for a first officer. Page 2 is were they have the flying allowances base. On an hourly rate, dependent on seniority. This page also has te infamous pli component which is a meagre 16k per month.

All this adds up to about 140k per month pre tax. Add both of them and you get 180k pre tax which ends up with about 120k per month which is a more realistic salary figure for a first officer and for a captain the take home is about 275k a month. This is no where near the 8 lac figure which some of the people here are quoting.

That amount is true for about 1% of the work force who also undertake simulator and training duties.

Foreign sustenance allowance is as per govt. notified standard of 75 dollars a day. This however, changed recently as part of interim agreement which will change again once dharam adhikari report is implemented. These are ex Ic figures.

For air India the structure is slightly different and effectively take home is about 75k per month for first officer and 150k per month for captain more than ex Ic.

Whereas ek is paying a first officer about 450k per month tax free. There is absolutely no comparison.

That additional compensation which they receive for the days they are overseas is included in the salary numbers you see for their salaries.

AI employees are on a government pay scale - the additional compensation for international spending/PLIs are more than the base pay they get.

That's news to me. Are you sure. I would think Hotel is not included. They don't know in advance how many hours they will end up flying in a year or how many days they would have to spend in a hotel.
Even without per diem they are still overpaid when cost of living is taken into account and comparison is made with other professions in India.

I don't think you can compare two different professions in a country and then decide that one is overpaid. Isn't that communism?

Salary in Indian airlines and air India is linked to govt. pay scale as it is a psu. And indeed 20 years back that is what they got. However, with the arrival of private airlines and th poaching that happened there were 2 levels of raises given, so as to retain the employees. 92 and 96 I think. However, since the govt. pay scale is limited, a way needed to be derived to give market rates whereas At the same time keep it within the govt. payscale. So you ended up with page 1 which was the govt. scale where basic pay starts at 8500 rupees with an increment of 150 rupees per year. This Along on vda and various other allowances makes up page 1 not exceeding 30-35k per month for a first officer. Page 2 is were they have the flying allowances base. On an hourly rate, dependent on seniority. This page also has te infamous pli component which is a meagre 16k per month.

All this adds up to about 140k per month pre tax. Add both of them and you get 180k pre tax which ends up with about 120k per month which is a more realistic salary figure for a first officer and for a captain the take home is about 275k a month. This is no where near the 8 lac figure which some of the people here are quoting.

That amount is true for about 1% of the work force who also undertake simulator and training duties.

Foreign sustenance allowance is as per govt. notified standard of 75 dollars a day. This however, changed recently as part of interim agreement which will change again once dharam adhikari report is implemented. These are ex Ic figures.

For air India the structure is slightly different and effectively take home is about 75k per month for first officer and 150k per month for captain more than ex Ic.

Whereas ek is paying a first officer about 450k per month tax free. There is absolutely no comparison.

Thanks for provinf this information. Let's not talk about pre tax and take home. We can't compare apples with oranges. All salaries that were mentioned by others were have been gross.

I am always intrigued when people start emphasising their "take home" salary, while everyone is talking about gross.
Starting salaries at major carriers in the U.S. is pathetically low. About $30-$45k at regionals it can be as allow as $15-$16k.
I don't want to start a war on pilots. Every one wants to get paid as much as possible. Pilots are no different. I also understand that AI has to have some way of retaining pilots. If offered higher pay, most people will jump ship in a heartbeat. There is no reason why pilots should not be able to do that. If the employer needs you really really bad, you are in a better position to negotiate, and even black mail. Mind you, one might be able to extract blood form their employer when the employer has not choice but pay, when things turn around, you will be the first to go. NO one is indispensible. there are limits. If AI has to pay $50k for an Indian pilot, why should they not hire an American pilot willing to work for $45k. You can't ask for industry salaries of OECD and seek protection at the same time. Protecting your jobs from other pilots (Indian Airlines pilots) the basis of this strike. Isn't it? Competitive salaries means accepting competition. You can't have one without the other.

Going back to the salary figures. The figure of Rs 180k per month is about $40k at the exchange rate of 55/$. At 45/$, it's $48k and at $40/$, it's $54k. All of these figures are multiples of what pilots at regional airlines make, and compare favourably with the majors, even disregarding the cost of living.

AT U.S. carriers, I have seen per diem of about $2 per hour. Per diem of $75 is certainly not low, nor it should be, because it does not cost them any less to eat in London than it does an AA pilot.

It's fun and feels good to get an OECD salary living in a non OECD country. It will work for some, but not all. OECD salary is justified when you have OECD GDP. Greece, Portugal and Spain have seen what happens when you start paying people higher salaries comparable to their counterpar5s in Europe. People felt richer for some time as they headed towards bankruptcy. I had dis discussion with a Greek friend of mine who claimed proudly, "Now we are part of Eurozone, our salaries are comparable tp other Europeans. We can wok anywhere in Europe." He could not follow my argument that rising salaries without equivalent increase in GDP per capita or productivity of Greek workers, all they will have done is caused inflation and increase national debt.

Why compare to America. An Indian pilot cannot work there. Neither Europe. Options are the middle east or entire Asia. And that comparison is what my argument is based upon. Also, air India salary is comparable to all private airlines in India, if not less. As long as middle east offers to pay more, the pressure will always be there.

Also expats workin in India draw more salaries than Indians. So I don't think they will find anyone for 45k.

And recently about 300 it pilots jumped ship to 6e. There was an excess supply of trained pilots. Yet 6e payed 3 months joining bonus. Was that justified?

I don't think you can compare two different professions in a country and then decide that one is overpaid. Isn't that communism?
Which two professions have I compared?
I have not compared pilots with another profession, but have made a general comparision with "All" professions.
Communism? says who? The vast disparity that exists is not sustainable. I am not saying everyone should be paid equal, but that Indian pilots benefit from shortage because of absence of a completely free market.
Why compare to America. An Indian pilot cannot work there. Neither Europe. Options are the middle east or entire Asia. And that comparison is what my argument is based upon. Also, air India salary is comparable to all private airlines in India, if not less. As long as middle east offers to pay more, the pressure will always be there.
Why not? The U.S. has been the single largest market all aviation products. So you want to be compared only with those countries that have less than perfect markets.
There are reasons for disparities and distortions in wage structure and it has costs. That's what I am saying. And stating my observations that they are overpaid from many perspectives. When I say you are over paid, it's just an opinion. Your employer is not going to cut your salary because Yaatri says you are overpaid.
There isn't just one factor that determines salary.


Salary in based on data from all profession in a geographic unit.
Salary based on comparable worth to the employer in a given industry.
Your worth depends on your educations skills and supply and demand.


All of the above and other factors go into a salary. Relying on only one leads to distortions.

Also expats working in India draw more salaries than Indians. So I don't think they will find anyone for 45k.
Agreed there are barriers. Many American pilots make very low wages at regional airlines. Some of them will be willing to work for $35K if they were better educated about pros and cons of working in India. What do you think the union will do if sit idle if they hired young first officer at $25k a year for the first year?
And recently about 300 it pilots jumped ship to 6e. There was an excess supply of trained pilots. Yet 6e payed 3 months joining bonus. Was that justified?
It's up to an employer to pay bonus, What I am saying is I don;t like it when pilots portray themselves as victims when they are overpaid. If you don;t like the term overpaid, you can replace it with highly paid, or equitably paid if you want, definitely not victims. Hence there is no cause for strike.
P.S> I probably should not have used "over-paid" as it means different things to different people in different contexts. There is no accepted definition of "over-paid" and it makes people defensive. My meaning of the use of ove-paid is,
paid far in excess of what people in a wide variety of professions that require substantial invest of time and money. Pilots probably have to spend more money but not as much time. Pilots just got lucky that the economic situation gave them a bargaining power and an opportunity to live in low cost country but earn better than U.S. salaries. But they feel they are victims.
That is another meaning of overpaid. ;)

I don't think you can compare two different professions in a country and then decide that one is overpaid. Isn't that communism?

Quite a remark in the context of Government running an airline. :D

That's because most perople, especially those who start hyperventilating when they think AI might join Star Alliance, think that getting out of India without stopping in India is better than stopping in FRA, or DXB/AUH/DOH.
I suppose they want to maximise there "phoreign" time, onset of which is delayed if they travel via another Indian city. :p
I also think there is lots of provincialism/parochialism in India too. For some reason, it makes people feel better about their city or themselves if they can get on an international flight without going to another city in India. Sala goli marta hai. If he was going to London, why did he get an AI flight to Delhi? just kidding. :D
People justified nonstop flights from their city to LAX, SFO, ORD, IAH on Indian carriers. It wasn't just the famous BLR-SFO, but there were other suggestions such as MAA-ORD because there were lots of Tamils in Chicago area (or some such suggestion). My take is that it increases their "kool factor", or something that makes them feel good about flying in a nonstop international flight from their city.
LH BA, and even KLM began flights to cities other than BOM/DEL. Since there is no possibility of LH offering nonstop from even BLR-SFO, (;) flying BLR-FRA or MAA-DXB is next best thing.
I understand and agree with everything you say. All I was trying to say is that the argument that DXB is the "center of the world" but DEL is not does not make sense. There are other reasons why DXB is succeeding as a hub and DEL is not.

I'd like to say that so far, I agree with everything Yaatri has said about pilots pay on this thread. Very well articulated.

And recently about 300 it pilots jumped ship to 6e. There was an excess supply of trained pilots. Yet 6e payed 3 months joining bonus. Was that justified?
Indigo is a private airline and can pay its employees whatever it wants. I don't care what 6E pays its pilots as long as it is not breaking any law. It is up to the company's shareholders to voice their objections should they have any.

The only reason I care about what AI pays its employees is because AI is a public company. And we, the taxpayers, are in a sense the shareholders of AI.

I'd like to say that so far, I agree with everything Yaatri has said about pilots pay on this thread. Very well articulated.


Indigo is a private airline and can pay its employees whatever it wants. I don't care what 6E pays its pilots as long as it is not breaking any law. It is up to the company's shareholders to voice their objections should they have any.

The only reason I care about what AI pays its employees is because AI is a public company. And we, the taxpayers, are in a sense the shareholders of AI.

interesting, you are okay with a private company paying a particular professional any amount of money, however, you are not okay with a govt. company not paying the market rate to the same profesional. do explain.

And FYI 6E pays more than IC.

Quite a remark in the context of Government running an airline. :D

what do i say :eek:

I understand and agree with everything you say. All I was trying to say is that the argument that DXB is the "center of the world" but DEL is not does not make sense. There are other reasons why DXB is succeeding as a hub and DEL is not.

I didn't write to contradict what you wrote. I agree with you that DEL is a potential transit point. For passengers to travel from Europe to SEA, Far east and Oceania. With a few non stops it could even connect north America with Asia and Oceania. Before, T3, it just wasn't possible. Now it's possible but transit passengers need a lot more than a terminal. None of the Indian carriers has

Connections. As of now, no Indian airlines provides decent connections in DEL, Both AI (if it doesn't cancel the flights) and 9W come up with 40 hours or more to travel from NYC to SIN. Not sure if there are any code shares. Who wants to spend 40-45 hours to travel from NYC to SIN, with 12 hours or so in DEL.
Unlike Thailand and Singapore, that give VOA to nationals of many countries, Indian VOA is limited to a few countries. With 12 hours layover in DEL and no transit visa, what's one supposed to do?
Easy access to transit area. When you get off the plane, you should be in the transit area. I am not sure how easy it is go to the transit area after getting off the aircraft.
Dubai, Abu Dhabi etc are known for duty free, including gold.
Delhi's image is still a chaotic city of a developing country.
There is little coordinated effort between DIAL and Indian carriers to make DEL a transit point. Simply building a terminal and calling it a swanky, world class terminal isn't enough.
Westerners have worked in Gulf capitals for nearly three decades. All Abu Dhabi, Dubai, etc all look far flashier than Delhi, hence are more better tolerated by westerners.
Even ignoring the image of Delhi, EK, established its image while Indian carriers have to shake their image to get into the same league as EK, Y and QR.
Indian carriers have not even established a hold on O&D traffic in DEL.
Indian carriers' schedule does not provide a feed back between their network to the west and east.
Indian carriers have to have many more non-stops between DEL and cities to the west than they do.
Fleet size: Indian carriers just haven't got the fleet to do it. EK has 167 wide bodies, AI and 9W's wide body fleet is a 1/7th that size. If you include narrow body jets,their fleet together just equals EK's fleet size.
EK has no domestic traffic to cater to, while for Indian carriers have to cater to the Indian market too.

DEL has a long way to go. A large investment is needed in fleet size, training, and on the ground improvements in DEL.

interesting, you are okay with a private company paying a particular professional any amount of money, however, you are not okay with a govt. company not paying the market rate to the same profesional. do explain.
What is there to explain in this? What the private company pays is none of my business, as long as they are not breaking any laws. Market rate or not, I don't care.
On the other hand, I care about the salaries paid by a govt company since I, as a taxpayer, am a shareholder and ultimate beneficiary. I want the government company to fulfill its objective of providing an essential service at the lowest possible cost. (In the case of AI, the essential service is air transport. The essential service is not providing employment for the unemployed or underemployed.)

What is there to explain in this? What the private company pays is none of my business, as long as they are not breaking any laws. Market rate or not, I don't care.

What AI's competitors pay their pilots is very relevant. If AI pays less, the pilots will go to the competitors. And then AI will have no pilots.

If AI wants to have pilots, to operate their schedule and hopefully make some money, they need to pay a competitive wage. That does not mean that they should be paying more than the private carriers - but they should be competitive.

What AI's competitors pay their pilots is very relevant. If AI pays less, the pilots will go to the competitors. And then AI will have no pilots.

If AI wants to have pilots, to operate their schedule and hopefully make some money, they need to pay a competitive wage. That does not mean that they should be paying more than the private carriers - but they should be competitive.

What I meant to say is that I don't care about what Indigo is paying its pilots, per se.

It's not so much what Indigo is paying that matters, but market rates. As I have stated earlier (see below), I want AI to achieve its objective at the lowest possible cost. That cost will be a function of market rates, which is what Indigo's salaries will affect.

I want the government company to fulfill its objective of providing an essential service at the lowest possible cost.

If Indigo pilots are making more than AI pilots, they are overpaid too. I smell shades of Greece.
New kid on the block has to work harder.
Company A pays it's employees more to attract them, company B employees now want to be paid at least as much as company A's employees if not more. Then come the workers at C. Every year tgheir is a round of pay increases but no growth, no increase in productivity, instead you face a crippling strike.

Comparison between AI and E6 is will not take us anywhere. No two companies will have identical wage structure. Public sector corporations have privileges that that a private companies do not have. AI will be around but E6 might not be. How would you like to quantify job security.

You have job security, you are over paid and you claim to provide an essential service, so what do you do? You go on strike and cripple the company. Why? because you know the company will not be shut down. It needs pilots. So you go on rampage and porttray yourself as victims.

What AI's competitors pay their pilots is very relevant. If AI pays less, the pilots will go to the competitors. And then AI will have no pilots.

If AI wants to have pilots, to operate their schedule and hopefully make some money, they need to pay a competitive wage. That does not mean that they should be paying more than the private carriers - but they should be competitive.

No one has made any comparison with all of AI's competitors. What competitors pay AI is only somewhat relevant. Basis of the strike isn't what they are paid or not paid. It is the protection of their rice bowl. Typical union tactics. If the grass is so much greener in Indigo's backyard why haven't AI pilots gone over? Is their an advantage of sticking with AI? Sure. You can go on strike, cripple the company, and comeback and sue for back pay fore the days you did not work.
I am beginning to cross over to the side whose opinions I questioned. If this is the way AI pilots, the best paid employees of the company are going to be, there not much hope for future of the airline.

Well then it must be Greece. Fact is when air India was the only airline around. They were paid very less (compared to now), then came east west , damania, jet which heavily poached pilots. To counter that, salary at air India increased. Then came another round of private carriers in the early 2000. Another hike. To explain how desperate private carriers are, at one point last year just after Ic strike, 6e was offering 8 months salary as joining bonus. The problem is pilot training is very expensive an takes a lot of time. 3-4 years if training for the right seat and then another 3-4 to move to the left. The cost and time may be comparable to a degree plus MBA plus some work experience, however just because certain companies want to grow exponentially, they pay the sky for whoever they get.

If Indigo pilots are making more than AI pilots, they are overpaid too. I smell shades of Greece.

It is supply and demand. There is more demand for type-rated pilots in India than there is supply. Therefore, airlines have to pay progressively higher wages, as they try to poach pilots from each other.

If there were hoards of type-rated pilots waiting to fly, AI could cut its wages in half and the airline would still be swamped with applications. That is not the situation though - if AI cut its wages to the pay scale of regional airlines in the USA, they would suddenly find that they have no pilots left. The competition is more than happy to grab as many qualified pilots as possible in this period of traffic growth...

I do realise there is tremndous inflationary pressure on pilots salaries.
Well then it must be Greece.I would think no one would want to be Greece unless they specialise and leaching off others.
[B] Fact is when air India was the only airline around. They were paid very less (compared to now),
I am not sure what your point is. Almost every one is paid more now than they were 20 years ago.
[B] then came east west , damania, jet which heavily poached pilots. To counter that, salary at air India increased. Then came another round of private carriers in the early 2000. Another hike. All this is not relevant. I am not saying that they should be paid like they were 20 years ago, but that even with their extraordinarily high salaries, completely out of line with the cost of living, they still play dirty games, go on illegal strike, call in sick when they are not. I would not tolerate this from my employees.

[B]To explain how desperate private carriers are, at one point last year just after Ic strike, 6e was offering 8 months salary as joining bonus.
Well I understand they are desperate. AI has the Govt to back it up. The only advantage a small private carrier can offer is a monetary incentive. Those who want the 6-8 month bonus can go. Let the rest of the business go on. You sing the market raga and then disrupt the market with a crippling strike.
I do understand that their is tremendous pressure to pay pilots more. And it's OK, even for AI. But do the work you are paid to do or get out. Working when you want and calling in sick when you don't feel like going to work, is not very professional.

[B] The problem is pilot training is very expensive an takes a lot of time. 3-4 years if training for the right seat and then another 3-4 to move to the left. The cost and time may be comparable to a degree plus MBA plus some work experience, however just because certain companies want to grow exponentially, they pay the sky for whoever they get.
Yes, pilot training is expensive. Not all your training is paid out of your pocket. Any training your employer paid for is not your investment. I am not up with hiring practices in India. Are there any earning opportunities for someone before they get their ATP or just with an ATP? I don;t mean to demean pilots, but it is difficult to compare the level of effort with academic disciplines, not all of which are respected by every one. Overvalued MBAs has also led to many disastrous consequences, but that's another topic.

India is a very different country than the Emirates, which have oil money and no manpower. Their model of luring pilots away from other airlines is the only model they CAN have. As I have said before, Indian economy has grown faster than it can provide trained manpower. Shortage of pilots is a consequence of that. You need Airlines needed pilots, people set shop to provide fake certificates/licenses, a typical solution used in India, more so in Pakistan. Everything can be had for a price. Had general aviation, training facilities and airlines grown in tandem, shortage of pilots would not have presented itself so acutely.

The interesting thing is that you don't just need pilots. You need others too, such as engineers, mechanics and technicians.
I am not saying that AI pilots should take pay cuts. But in comparison with the rest of Indian professionals, their salaries are not sustainable for long. here is why. In a free market, more people are drawn to a profession that pays well. In a few years, the supply begins to meet the demand. That has not happened in India. For some reason the labour pool in India is not capable of meeting the demand. Neither is Dubai. Hence the Dubai/EK model. India cannot follow Dubai model. It's only outcome will be salaries spiralling out of control. Fake licenses is a result of that spiral. When the return is so high, criminal elements are drawn to it.
What is the solution? Gulf carriers will continue to steal pilots away. My BIL works for an airforce and making close to about $100k. I doubt that he can be hired by a fulll service carrier right a way, but assuming he were, we would be making $250K max. Regardless of comparisons with EK and other gulf carriers, there are some universal multiplicative factors that show the skew and the stress on wage structure. What is a mid career IAF officer paid?

Well the supply is there now. There were 5000 pilots produced in India from 1930's to 2007. From 2007 to 2012 another 7000 pilot have been produced, out of which about 4000 are unemployed at the moment, with no earning opportunity in this field. Yet the salaries remain where they were, though pilots now pay for their endorsement with the private carriers, which costs about 25 lac rupees.

To some extent I agree with you that on their whims and fancies they should not be allowed to strike, and this particular strike may be unjustified. However, to say that BECAUSE you are paid so much, you should not strike work, no matter what is wrong. Period.

Not sure about IAF, but I am guessing it would be about 50-60 % less than commercial flying. However, working for IAF has a lot of other benefits, which are not available for commercial pilots.

I am not sure what your point is. Almost every one is paid more now than they were 20 years ago. shahadil was explaining the effect of supply and demand using historical examples. When IC was the only game in town, pilots had the choice between going to them or nobody. So there was oversupply, and IC could pay low salaries. When the first round of private carriers showed up, suddenly there was a lot more demand - so salaries went up. And that happened repeatedly as demand outstripped supply even further.


India is a very different country than the Emirates, which have oil money and no manpower. Their model of luring pilots away from other airlines is the only model they CAN have. As I have said before, Indian economy has grown faster than it can provide trained manpower. Shortage of pilots is a consequence of that. You need Airlines needed pilots, people set shop to provide fake certificates/licenses, a typical solution used in India, more so in Pakistan. Everything can be had for a price. Had general aviation, training facilities and airlines grown in tandem, shortage of pilots would not have presented itself so acutely. Agreed. But you're missing the outcome of this shortage of pilots - salaries go up. At every airline, private sector or public sector.

The interesting thing is that you don't just need pilots. You need others too, such as engineers, mechanics and technicians. And the same principles affect those staff too - if there are too few mechanics getting trained, wages go up. If there are too many, wages go down.

I am not saying that AI pilots should take pay cuts. But in comparison with the rest of Indian professionals, their salaries are not sustainable for long. here is why. In a free market, more people are drawn to a profession that pays well. In a few years, the supply begins to meet the demand. That has not happened in India. For some reason the labour pool in India is not capable of meeting the demand. You hit on many of the reasons yourself. India has poor general aviation infrastructure, meaning that less people have exposure to flying. India does not have as many pilots being trained for commercial aviation as many other countries. In India, pilots are less respected than academics, as you said yourself. Until there are enough pilots to drive wages down, wages will stay high.

Well the supply is there now. There were 5000 pilots produced in India from 1930's to 2007. From 2007 to 2012 another 7000 pilot have been produced, out of which about 4000 are unemployed at the moment, with no earning opportunity in this field. Yet the salaries remain where they were, though pilots now pay for their endorsement with the private carriers, which costs about 25 lac rupees.
And if you look at those unemployed pilots, they are mostly CPL holders who do not have type ratings. Until there is a serious surplus of type rated pilots, wages are going to stay high, because carriers won't have anybody to hire for cheaper (without paying for expensive training)

just saw news that Air Sri Lanka. (Air Celon ?) just was accepted to join One World.

I consider this a shameful news in that the airlines of India did not cut it !

Let the pilots of AI go to the " Bandra Khadi". They are holding the country hostage because they can and the govt. allows it !

India is better off liquidating AI and let private operators take over the routes.

just saw news that Air Sri Lanka. (Air Celon ?) just was accepted to join One World. SriLankan Airlines has been accepted. That does not mean anything. Kingfisher was also accepted to join oneworld, and Air India was accepted to join Star Alliance.

I consider this a shameful news in that the airlines of India did not cut it ! Not really. When the airlines are ready, they will join.

Let the pilots of AI go to the " Bandra Khadi". They are holding the country hostage because they can and the govt. allows it !

India is better off liquidating AI and let private operators take over the routes.

yawn

SriLankan Airlines has been accepted. That does not mean anything. Kingfisher was also accepted to join oneworld, and Air India was accepted to join Star Alliance.

The point is look where each of them are....!


Not really. When the airlines are ready, they will join.

Sure, ready as in " I am ready" or ready as in meeting all the requirements?


yawn

Yes, yawn away, look where it got AI !

Yes, yawn away, look where it got AI !

When you have my job and are trying to create something huge out of a limited budget, then you will yawn at ways to do it.
Commuting in YUL at 8 PM isn't fun either.
(The place where I am staying in has no wifi and I don't want to tether my phone....)

just saw news that Air Sri Lanka. (Air Celon ?) just was accepted to join One World.

I consider this a shameful news in that the airlines of India did not cut it !

Let the pilots of AI go to the " Bandra Khadi". They are holding the country hostage because they can and the govt. allows it !

India is better off liquidating AI and let private operators take over the routes.

Hear hear! Kill Air India. Now. And cut off all their leeching, thieving employees. Now.

It would mean no more nonstop YYZ DEL though...
(Though I would prefer to connect in HKG)

It would mean no more nonstop YYZ DEL though...
(Though I would prefer to connect in HKG)

The reason there would be no more nonstop YYZ-DEL is because it's not profitable for any carrier in current circumstances. AC tried it and dropped it - yields aren't good enough to warrant service. AI only makes it work because they are subsidized by the Indian government.

From a passenger point of view, it's really nice to have a nonstop. It's really nice to have lower fares. But it can't last. Fortunately for passengers taking advantage of the route (and unfortunately for the Indian taxpayer to a large extent*), AI is unlikely to be going anywhere in the current political climate...

We can continue hoping that AI will get its act together or get privatised or shut down or whatever, but it's not likely in the short term. In the long term, it'll have to happen - AI in its current state is not sustainable.

*while AI being subsidized is a direct cost to the taxpayer, the lower transportation costs are also a driver of overall economic growth to some extent. And economic growth benefits the taxpayer. But the cost is more than the reward.

It would mean no more nonstop YYZ DEL though...
(Though I would prefer to connect in HKG)

If there is profit, the successor(s) will fly it !

The reason there would be no more nonstop YYZ-DEL is because it's not profitable for any carrier in current circumstances. AC tried it and dropped it - yields aren't good enough to warrant service. AI only makes it work because they are subsidized by the Indian government.

From a passenger point of view, it's really nice to have a nonstop. It's really nice to have lower fares. But it can't last. Fortunately for passengers taking advantage of the route (and unfortunately for the Indian taxpayer), AI is unlikely to be going anywhere in the current political climate...

We can continue hoping that AI will get its act together or get privatised or shut down or whatever, but it's not likely in the short term. In the long term, it'll have to happen - AI in its current state is not sustainable.

Might explain why upgrading on that route when it existed was really easy.
In comparison, as a CX G and AC E I often clear the YVR HKG waitlist at the gate.
I can only imagine it being worse at YYZ.
And this is where I need to buy K or higher on both carriers.

The reason there would be no more nonstop YYZ-DEL is because it's not profitable for any carrier in current circumstances. AC tried it and dropped it - yields aren't good enough to warrant service. AI only makes it work because they are subsidized by the Indian government.
If there is profit, the successor(s) will fly it !
There's more to it than loads. Ultra long haul flights cost airlines a lot more than long haul ones. It's because of the extra crew required, the increased fuel burn rate, etc. It is very hard for a carrier to make money on a ULH route that has cheaper alternatives (one-stop through Europe) and price conscious customers (most Indian economy passengers).

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The reason there would be no more nonstop YYZ-DEL is because it's not profitable for any carrier in current circumstances. AC tried it and dropped it - yields aren't good enough to warrant service. AI only makes it work because they are subsidized by the Indian government.
If there is profit, the successor(s) will fly it !
There's more to it than loads. Ultra long haul flights cost airlines a lot more than long haul ones. It's because of the extra crew required, the increased fuel burn rate, etc. It is very hard for a carrier to make money on a ULH route that has cheaper alternatives (one-stop through Europe) and price conscious customers (most Indian economy passengers).

If AI has to either invest in a European hub, or capture at least one or two ultra long haul flagship routes, to compete with one stop services offeres by its competitors.
The European hub would be connected nonstop with major Indiam cities.

It seems the chorus for the sale/devolution of AI is getting louder (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-14/indians-grow-weary-of-socialism-in-the-skies.html); will the UPA government have the cojones to do something about it?

If AI has to either invest in a European hub, or capture at least one or two ultra long haul flagship routes, to compete with one stop services offeres by its competitors.The European hub would be connected nonstop with major Indiam cities.
That's right. In fact, it's exactly what Jet tried to do. But they don't seem to be that successful at it. There are many reasons for this, most of which will apply to AI too.

It seems the chorus for the sale/devolution of AI is getting louder (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-14/indians-grow-weary-of-socialism-in-the-skies.html); will the UPA government have the cojones to do something about it?

No.

Very, very doubtful anyway...

There's more to it than loads. Ultra long haul flights cost airlines a lot more than long haul ones. It's because of the extra crew required, the increased fuel burn rate, etc. It is very hard for a carrier to make money on a ULH route that has cheaper alternatives (one-stop through Europe) and price conscious customers (most Indian economy passengers).
I didn't say loads, I said yields. AC probably had no trouble filling the airplane up in the back - the problem was the fares they were selling at couldn't cover the costs of operating the flight. As you said, ULH flights have higher costs...

I didn't say loads, I said yields.
my bad

No.

Very, very doubtful anyway...


I didn't say loads, I said yields. AC probably had no trouble filling the airplane up in the back - the problem was the fares they were selling at couldn't cover the costs of operating the flight. As you said, ULH flights have higher costs...

The front, according to one of the former pax, was also filled..... With upgrades.
This was a long flight (and still would be today)
It wasn't as easy getting the former SWU though.

The front, according to one of the former pax, was also filled..... With upgrades.Well, upgrades would be lower yield tickets as well...

However, it's tough to gauge the average loads of a flight from a one-off experience. India-USA/Canada flights can be packed to the gills during peak season, and then half empty during off-season. Seasonality also has a big effect on the market.

Well, upgrades would be lower yield tickets as well...

However, it's tough to gauge the average loads of a flight from a one-off experience. India-USA/Canada flights can be packed to the gills during peak season, and then half empty during off-season. Seasonality also has a big effect on the market.

This pax flew it 4x/year in Dec, Feb, Aug, and Oct.
Dec to visit family, and the rest for business.

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If AI has to either invest in a European hub, or capture at least one or two ultra long haul flagship routes, to compete with one stop services offeres by its competitors.The European hub would be connected nonstop with major Indiam cities.
That's right. In fact, it's exactly what Jet tried to do. But they don't seem to be that successful at it. There are many reasons for this, most of which will apply to AI too.

I am not talking about a mini hub with six oitfoing flights from the hub. I am talking about a major hub, serving a dozen or more Indian cities with hald a dozen oe more U.S. cities, along with two or three Canadian cities. That's why I said massive, which only GoI can do. An aliance memership is a must to serve other cities inEurope and Americas. Jet lacked an alliance and deep pockets.
Possibly PLI kind of incentives should be linked to passenger complaints, delays, mishandled bags and such issues to be tracked by an agency like DGCA, or a new agency.
This is the only way to fight the likes of EK and LH. Undercut them with fares. AI's cabin service in Y is already better than that of LH.
Both, Jet and IT have raised expectation of new passngers entering the market, by showerimg benefits on lowest tier elites. With an sustainable ans usable FF plan AI should be able to bring realism into the young FF minds. That many new flyers don't understand the rules, and have unrealistic expectations, is obvious from the types of complaimts we have heard not just against AI, but also against their former darlings, eapecially Jet.

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How are CO and AA doimg their nonstops? One ULH from DEL or BOM to A major U.S. city, in the north east, even with low yields has to be there as a flagship route.

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How are CO and AA doimg their nonstops? One ULH from DEL or BOM to A major U.S. city, in the north east, even with low yields has to be there as a flagship route.

AA no longer has any direct flights to India on their own metal.
The yields and prices weren't that bad, though.

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How are CO and AA doimg their nonstops? One ULH from DEL or BOM to A major U.S. city, in the north east, even with low yields has to be there as a flagship route.

AA no longer has any direct flights to India on their own metal.
The yields and prices weren't that bad, though.

So the business is there. It's a mattet of having the right approach to marketing, adequate customer service and a plan for irrops that works for customers.
One thing I have noticed is that when an Indian passenger is told by an Indian airline that something cannot be done, the passenger concludes that the airline is lying
and they become aggressive.
For example if a Jet employee yells them that they cannot be upgraded because business class is sold out, they don't understand that it's another way of saying that the iupgrade inventory for the farebasis they purchased is not available. But the passenger thinks that the airlinw ia lying, especially when the airline might still be selling business class tickets, or selling upgrades to people with ahigher farebasis.
It's harder for an Indian carrier to deal with a less than knowledgable passengers. These comments do not apply to more ezperienced Indian travellers.

[QUOTE=Yaatri;18773213So the business is there. It's a mattet of having the right approach to marketing, adequate customer service and a plan for irrops that works for customers.[/QUOTE]
Of course the demand is there. There are always enough people who want to fly US-India to fill up [at least the economy section] of any plane. The real question is whether this demand for ULH flights exists at a price the competitve market should charge. The answer seems to be no.

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of any plane. The real question is whether this demand for ULH flights exists at a price the competitve market should charge. The answer seems to be no.

The answer may very well be no. That's why I asked about CO and AA. If there yields are/were not bad, then the answer for AI should also be "not too bad". If CO can manage it so can AI. It's more important for an Indian carrier to have a notstop between the U.S. and India, than iy is for an American carrier. Let's admit that the U.S. is a more important destination for an Indian carrier than India is for an American carrier. An alliance is of utmost important to feed traffic into and out of the nonstop destination in the U.S.

If CO can manage it so can AI.
I'm not sure about this. CO can charge passengers more than AI can and get away with it because (1) pax will be willing to pay more for an alliance carrier and (2) Indians in general will pay more for a foreign carrier. Also, lots of passengers who fly BOM/DEL to EWR end up connecting on CO flights to elsewhere in the US. This is not possible for AI passengers at that price.

It's more important for an Indian carrier to have a notstop between the U.S. and India, than it is for an American carrier. Let's admit that the U.S. is a more important destination for an Indian carrier than India is for an American carrier. An alliance is of utmost important to feed traffic into and out of the nonstop destination in the U.S.
Agreed.

I'm not sure about this. CO can charge passengers more than AI can and get away with it because (1) pax will be willing to pay more for an alliance carrier and (2) Indians in general will pay more for a foreign carrier. Also, lots of passengers who fly BOM/DEL to EWR end up connecting on CO flights to elsewhere in the US. This is not possible for AI passengers at that price.


Agreed.
That's why I said a nonstop service between India and the U.S. has any chance of being anywhere near viable, AI must be a part of alliance to get necessary feed to and from the U.S. destination. Other things being equal, many will prefer AI over CO. Currently, CO doesn't have a partner in India too. If AI had a nonstop to the U.S. without an aliance, AI will be in the same boat in the U.S. that CO is in India.

AA no longer has any direct flights to India on their own metal.
The yields and prices weren't that bad, though.

If the yields were good enough, AA wouldn't have dropped the route.

CO has the advantage of a lot of O&D traffic from EWR, and connections from all over the US. Indian carriers don't have this advantage.

AI has tried to capture Indian feed with this international domestic flight or whatever they call it, to mixed results. I know that I'll only connect through BOM if the flight goes to T2. But when I'm not going international, these flights turn out to be more of a hassle than anything.

If the yields were good enough, AA wouldn't have dropped the route.

CO has the advantage of a lot of O&D traffic from EWR, and connections from all over the US. Indian carriers don't have this advantage.

AI has tried to capture Indian feed with this international domestic flight or whatever they call it, to mixed results. I know that I'll only connect through BOM if the flight goes to T2. But when I'm not going international, these flights turn out to be more of a hassle than anything.
Northeast region around NY/NJ has a largest concentration of people from the subcontinent. Delta made a big mistake when it moved its BOM nonstop from JFK to ATL.

Northeast region around NY/NJ has a largest concentration of people from the subcontinent. Delta made a big mistake when it moved its BOM nonstop from JFK to ATL.

I disagree. I think it was probably a smart decision. The economics of ultra-long haul flights are very challenging, and the yields to Indian destinations are not enough to sustain the flight most of the time.

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There is no clear evidence to support your claim assuming it were true. NY/NJ is one market for India where the importance of feed is not the only factor. AA opereated its DEL flight from its hub as CO does from its hub. If you have sufficient O&D traffic, fees plays little role.
Evidently the situation is not as clear cut as you think it is. If it were, AA wpuld not have taken years to do away with DEL.
As for DL, ATL is the wrong hub to move its India Nonstops to. Better connectips to JFK froma few metro areas would have worked better than ATL. You can not ignore the importance of O&D.

for a ULH you're forgetting fuel loads, weight you can carry etc. If a lot of that weight is pax who demand deep discounted tickets and also five star hotel service ..

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for a ULH you're forgetting fuel loads, weight you can carry etc. If a lot of that weight is pax who demand deep discounted tickets and also five star hotel service ..

No I am not. PVDtoDEL is forgetting important factors such as AA bamkruptcy and comperotiom from AI.

There is no clear evidence to support your claim assuming it were true. NY/NJ is one market for India where the importance of feed is not the only factor. AA opereated its DEL flight from its hub as CO does from its hub. If you have sufficient O&D traffic, fees plays little role.

Feed is entirely irrelevant to what I'm talking about. Cost per ASM and distance are not linearly related. India, being a relatively low yielding market, often cannot generate the yields to cover than high CASM. Therefore, the route is unprofitable.

Breaking the flight with a stop in a European hub drives down CASM, improves network flows to some extent, and is more likely to be profitable.

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There is no clear evidence to support your claim assuming it were true. NY/NJ is one market for India where the importance of feed is not the only factor. AA opereated its DEL flight from its hub as CO does from its hub. If you have sufficient O&D traffic, fees plays little role.

Feed is entirely irrelevant to what I'm talking about. Cost per ASM and distance are not linearly related. India, being a relatively low yielding market, often cannot generate the yields to cover than high CASM. Therefore, the route is unprofitable.

Breaking the flight with a stop in a European hub drives down CASM, improves network flows to some extent, and is more likely to be profitable.

I did not say that feed is not relevant, but that it's not the only factor. In markets with O&D traffic it's relevant than it would be in absence of O&D.
The rest of your comments, though relevant, arw not disputed.

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I don't know what the normal industry pracrice is, I see problems with doing CASM for every routr as some routes will have obviously have higher CASM. You don't have to do CASM calculation to leaen that a nonstop to India will have higher CASM than one stoppinh in Europe. That is so for AA, CO and for AI. The differences are on the revenue side.

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I don't want to turn this thread into one on discussion of economivs of ULHs. Costs of ULH arr obvious. Not all benefits are. A stop in Eueope is a revenue leak. Airport associated taxes, not to miss the carbon tax that goes straight from passengers' pocketa to a European airport cam be captured by the airline without increasing the fare.

I agree that a nonstop USA-India Delta flight would probably have a better average RASM (yield) than one-stopping in Europe. However, in this case, the cost increase is probably greater than the yield increase. And flying through Europe also has network traffic flow advantages for Delta.

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I agree that a nonstop USA-India Delta flight would probably have a better average RASM (yield) than one-stopping in Europe. However, in this case, the cost increase is probably greater than the yield increase. And flying through Europe also has network traffic flow advantages for Delta.

Agreed. Costs arisimg from fuel are similar for ULH to DEL from ORD and NYC. If you are goimg to start a ULH, you have to be prepared for the extra cost of fuel and the traffic lost in Europe.

From what I read on the AA forums and some blogs, the Load factors were pretty high on the route. India fares on the whole tend to be very very competitive fare price-wise so I guess AA couldn't compete on that. There's also the monster that is SWU's. Go from a already deeply discounted coach fare to Business? That'll help.

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From what I read on the AA forums and some blogs, the Load factors were pretty high on the route. India fares on the whole tend to be very very competitive fare price-wise so I guess AA couldn't compete on that. There's also the monster that is SWU's. Go from a already deeply discounted coach fare to Business? That'll help.

AA operated the eoute for more than six years. Yields coud not have beem horrible. Fares to India have become more competitive, but still not as competitive as US-Europe/BKK/SIN etc.

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AA operated the eoute for more than six years. Yields coud not have beem horrible. Fares to India have become more competitive, but still not as competitive as US-Europe/BKK/SIN etc.
You may have a point here. perhaps with the BK looming they decided to cut what looked like a less profitable route and someone decided to be more profitable by deploying the eat. And personnel. !

From what I read on the AA forums and some blogs, the Load factors were pretty high on the route. India fares on the whole tend to be very very competitive fare price-wise so I guess AA couldn't compete on that. There's also the monster that is SWU's. Go from a already deeply discounted coach fare to Business? That'll help.

Not everyone on the flight was an EXP, though.

Hunger strike continues, another round of hospitalizations has happened yesterday.

Ajit Singh has decided to take off on vacation to London, 28 June to 7th July. Brilliant timing :rolleyes:

ICPA training on 787s has been suspended indefinitely due to crew shortage on A320 fleet.

The infamous Captain N K Beri failed 787 training (unsurprisingly). I still don't understand why he even was selected for training.

It appears 4 ICPA pilots have failed training, due to difficulties understanding the computer systems on board.

Good. As if he should be sitting around and kowtowing to the greedy pilots instead.

When will we see the end of the fat duchess AI? She's like the head of the fat lunch ladies committee in the office canteen; the one who's been around for ever, is no longer productive and stands in everyone's way.

She just doesn't leave.

Good. As if he should be sitting around and kowtowing to the greedy pilots instead.

When will we see the end of the fat duchess AI? She's like the head of the fat lunch ladies committee in the office canteen; the one who's been around for ever, is no longer productive and stands in everyone's way.

She just doesn't leave.
+ 1.

It is time to lose AI as we know it....Hopefully it will be th efirst of many of the limbs on the Govt. that are nothing but parasites.

Let us HOPE and PRAY !

Hunger strike continues, another round of hospitalizations has happened yesterday.

Ajit Singh has decided to take off on vacation to London, 28 June to 7th July. Brilliant timing :rolleyes:

ICPA training on 787s has been suspended indefinitely due to crew shortage on A320 fleet.

The infamous Captain N K Beri failed 787 training (unsurprisingly). I still don't understand why he even was selected for training.

It appears 4 ICPA pilots have failed training, due to difficulties understanding the computer systems on board.

Ajit Singh is not the first Union minister to go on vacation. Not going on a vacation would not necessarily solve any issues. If the pilots had to pay as much for health care as Americans do, with whom, they claim parity, I bet they would not a hunger strike. Personally, I think hunger strike is a ruse here. This strike has no moral force behind it.

Good. As if he should be sitting around and kowtowing to the greedy pilots instead.

When will we see the end of the fat duchess AI? She's like the head of the fat lunch ladies committee in the office canteen; the one who's been around for ever, is no longer productive and stands in everyone's way.

She just doesn't leave.

There you go again. It's been said before, personal rants without any new facts is.... well, we all know.

+ 1.
It is time to lose AI as we know it....Hopefully it will be th efirst of many of the limbs on the Govt. that are nothing but parasites.
Let us HOPE and PRAY !
What about people wanting to sit in business class without having to pay for it, or generating any revenue for an airline. Are they not parasites? :D

Ajit Singh is not the first Union minister to go on vacation. Not going on a vacation would not necessarily solve any issues. If the pilots had to pay as much for health care as Americans do, with whom, they claim parity, I bet they would not a hunger strike. Personally, I think hunger strike is a ruse here. This strike has no moral force behind it.

He is not the first minister to go on vacation, but the timing is poor. Right after the hunger strike began, but before the hospitalizations started. And the return is late enough that he won't have to deal with the fallout. It would be much better if he had waited until the IPG, 787, FDI situations all got sorted out before disappearing for 2 weeks.

As for health care, for currently employed pilots, AI doctors have been providing treatment.
For sacked pilots, AI is not. AI's ED of industrial relations reportedly made a comment (in very poor taste I must say) - "Just check the ones who are not terminated, sacked ones can die for all I care."

AI's ED of industrial relations made a comment (in very poor taste I must say) - "Just check the ones who are not terminated, sacked ones can die for all I care."
Is there a cite for this? Thanks.

Is there a cite for this? Thanks.

It was a spoken statement, so it's not in writing from her. However, Dr Aluwalia (who she said this to) is regarded as trustworthy by the members of IPG, ICPA, and management who I asked.

I can give you in writing messages from members of all 3 of these groups (IPG, ICPA, Management) attributing the quote to the ED-IR, Ms. Vinita Bhandari, via the Doctor...

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AI's ED of industrial relations made a comment (in very poor taste I must say) - "Just check the ones who are not terminated, sacked ones can die for all I care."
Is there a cite for this? Thanks.

Whoever said that : Bravo. Even though talk is increasingly cheap.

As for a cite, don't hold your breath. My money's on fantasy or hearsay (presented as fact, of course).

Hunger strike continues, another round of hospitalizations has happened yesterday.

Ajit Singh has decided to take off on vacation to London, 28 June to 7th July. Brilliant timing :rolleyes:

ICPA training on 787s has been suspended indefinitely due to crew shortage on A320 fleet.

The infamous Captain N K Beri failed 787 training (unsurprisingly). I still don't understand why he even was selected for training.

It appears 4 ICPA pilots have failed training, due to difficulties understanding the computer systems on board.

+ 1.

It is time to lose AI as we know it....Hopefully it will be th efirst of many of the limbs on the Govt. that are nothing but parasites.

Let us HOPE and PRAY !

Good. As if he should be sitting around and kowtowing to the greedy pilots instead.

When will we see the end of the fat duchess AI? She's like the head of the fat lunch ladies committee in the office canteen; the one who's been around for ever, is no longer productive and stands in everyone's way.

She just doesn't leave.

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Bravo. Even though talk is increasingly cheap.

As for a cite, don't hold your breath. My money's on fantasy or hearsay (presented as fact, of course).

:D :D :D

He is not the first minister to go on vacation, but the timing is poor. Right after the hunger strike began, but before the hospitalizations started. And the return is late enough that he won't have to deal with the fallout. It would be much better if he had waited until the IPG, 787, FDI situations all got sorted out before disappearing for 2 weeks.
Who says timing is poor? The IPG doesn't seem to be in a hurry to resolve the matter. Instead they chose to go on a hunger strike.
If there is serious inclination displayed by IPG, there is no reason the Minister cannot come back.

As for health care, for currently employed pilots, AI doctors have been providing treatment.
For sacked pilots, AI is not.
I dd not say that AI was providing medical care for the pilots, but that the country in which they live, cost of medical care is a fraction of the cost in the country, with which they seek parity. If they had to spend for their healthcare what's normal in the U.S., they would not be on hunger strike.
This raises an interesting point. Will your insurance company pay for your medical care in the U.S. if you were on hunger strike-- a self inflicted injury? You can't drive your car into your property and make a claim on your insurance policy.

AI's ED of industrial relations reportedly made a comment (in very poor taste I must say) - "Just check the ones who are not terminated, sacked ones can die for all I care."


Are we supposed to feel sorry for sacked pilots?

Who says timing is poor? The IPG doesn't seem to be in a hurry to resolve the matter. Instead they chose to go on a hunger strike.
If there is serious inclination displayed by IPG, there is no reason the Minister cannot come back.


I dd not say that AI was providing medical care for the pilots, but that the country in which they live, cost of medical care is a fraction of the cost in the country, with which they seek parity. If they had to spend for their healthcare what's normal in the U.S., they would not be on hunger strike.
This raises an interesting point. Will your insurance company pay for your medical care in the U.S. if you were on hunger strike-- a self inflicted injury? You can't drive your car into your property and make a claim on your insurance policy. Y




Are we supposed to feel sorry for sacked pilots?

Again. +1
You want parity ? As you say out here we cannot hire chauffeurs, maids and servants...listen just to clean my house I pay $ 20 per hour !

At a few Lakhs approaching nine lakh per month.....these idiots want and strike because they cannot get FC when not piloting ? We all know, space permitting they will always go F....

They are just being selfish....look what damage they cause because of their petty demands to the lesser employees like baggage handlers upwards......What happens to all employees if AI is sent to the crematorium ?

These money hungry selfish all for me types are holding us back.....

.....

+ 10,0000

As for healthcare (or anything else) for sacked pilots, why should AI be doing anything ?

They don't work at Air India anymore; they chose to give up that cushy job.

Now they can fend for themselves, and have their driver take them in their BMW to Breach Candy Hospital, instead of demanding that AI send a rented Indigo (it's "free", you know).

Pilots are ending their strike (having gotten only a vague promise that their grievances will be sympathetically considered).

http://www.hindustantimes.com/BusinessSectionPage/SectorsAviation/Air-India-pilots-to-call-off--strike/Article1-882605.aspx

Pilots are ending their strike (having gotten only a vague promise that their grievances will be sympathetically considered).

http://www.hindustantimes.com/BusinessSectionPage/SectorsAviation/Air-India-pilots-to-call-off--strike/Article1-882605.aspx

Inaccurate report. Court proceedings are still happening, and strike is still on.

PVD, why do you keep making such strong statements without any kind of proof/evidence/quote?
Inaccurate report. Court proceedings are still happening, and strike is still on.
Many major news organizations (Hindu, ToI, etc) have reported similar stories. For example, here's what ToI says:

"...The offer to end the 58 day strike came after the AI management assured the court that it would consider the grievances of the pilots "sympathetically".

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Air-India-pilots-management-to-initiate-talks-to-end-strike/articleshow/14639022.cms

My info is straight from an IPG spokesman, not any media report.

Talks are progressing. Today's hearing at DEL High Court was IPG requesting direction regarding illegality of the strike.

Tomorrow, there is a hearing at BOM High Court regarding whether the terminations were illegal. If the court rules in favor of IPG, sacked pilots will probably be reinstated.

Regardless of the outcome of tomorrow's hearing, IPG has agreed in principle to file an affidavit stating that they are willing to return to work, pending interpretation of their lawyers. This affidavit is likely to be filed within 48 hours, at which point the strike will effectively be over.
However, until it is filed, it's still status quo.

Inaccurate report. Court proceedings are still happening, and strike is still on.

My info is straight from an IPG spokesman, not any media report.

Unless you have a reliable public cite, it is all entirely hearsay and "he said, she said". Whether it is your earlier, still unsubstantiated, claim that someone told you that Dr A heard Mrs ED say that she couldn't give two hoots about pilot X etc etc or this case.

I take a lot of Indian print media, especially TOI, with a huge grain of salt. But I would still trust them more than your unsubstantiated and unverifiable information that is offered, as hyderago put it, "without any kind of proof/evidence/quote".

I understand you are trying to make a career out of aviation related blogging. I hope you are very successful in your goals, but my sincere and humble advice, at least for flyertalk, would be to first try and establish credibility. Believe me, there are several people on FT, who if they post the same comments that you did, and also said, "trust me, but I cannot disclose a public source at this time", I would not doubt them one bit and would believe their information completely. Reason: established credibility.
I hope you are patient enough to hang around and achieve the same eventually without trying to force your word as gospel from the start, and expect not to be challenged about it.

Unless you have a reliable public cite, it is all entirely hearsay and "he said, she said". Whether it is your earlier, still unsubstantiated, claim that someone told you that Dr A heard Mrs ED say that she couldn't give two hoots about pilot X etc etc or this case.

I take a lot of Indian print media, especially TOI, with a huge grain of salt. But I would still trust them more than your unsubstantiated and unverifiable information that is offered, as hyderago put it, "without any kind of proof/evidence/quote".

Let me look for a public cite... I tend to avoid the mainstream media, but if that's what you want, that's what you'll get :)


I understand you are trying to make a career out of aviation related blogging. Not a career. A hobby :)

But not particularly relevant...

I hope you are very successful in your goals, but my sincere and humble advice, at least for flyertalk, would be to first try and establish credibility. Believe me, there are several people on FT, who if they post the same comments that you did, and also said, "trust me, but I cannot disclose a public source at this time", I would not doubt them one bit and would believe their information completely. Reason: established credibility. I hope you are patient enough to hang around and achieve the same eventually without trying to force your word as gospel from the start, and expect not to be challenged about it.
Fair enough. Give me 15 minutes, you'll have your "proof" :)

In quotation marks because I don't usually consider mainstream media sources to be proof. They're innaccurate far too often.

ok, I dug through a bunch of articles, and this is the best I could find:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/transportation/airlines-/-aviation/air-india-pilots-to-call-off-strike/articleshow/14642016.cms
MUMBAI: After a High Court Tuesday order asking about 400 striking pilots of Air India to file an affidavit ensuring willingness to report back to work, there are signs that the 50 day stir that has grounded Air India's international operations is nearing an end.

The pilots of the IPG, the agitating union, told ET that they were always willing to report back to work and there seems to be no issue in the pilots giving this affidavit to the Delhi High Court.

"We have been granted 48 hours by the Delhi High Court to file this affidavit. Though this is a positive sign and we have been willing to join back to work always we will still take little time to go through the legalities before submitting this affidavit. Yes, there are signs of cooling off but as of now it is a status quo which is likely to change may be today or tomorrow," said Tauseef Mukaddam, spokesperson, IPG.
...


The article has a sensationalist headline "Air India Pilots to Call Off Strike" Sensationalist because there is no guarantee that they will call of the strike. However, what I quoted in the article is more or less accurate.



Regardless, this might all be irrelevant - Times Now is reporting that AI and IPG are holding negotiations right now, and the strike may be called off tonight itself.

Knowing the track record of Times Now, this might very well be bullsh*t. Sent emails to both IPG and AI requesting clarification a couple minutes ago, will probably get a response in a little bit.

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Yes, of course.

And these spokeswhores tend to make a habit of spilling the truth to a random kid who could just as easily be the boogieman, rather than make that information public or quietly leak it to select outlets.

Of course.


I'm not saying the end result is never true, but the way of arriving at it, well, that cat"s still laughing. All aided by repeated and very convenient back pedalling and turning water into established fact.

If anyone expects to be taken seriously after all that (never mind the crush on AI) then they've got another thing coming.

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My info is straight from an IPG spokesman, not any media report.

Talks are progressing. Today's hearing at DEL High Court was IPG requesting direction regarding illegality of the strike.

Tomorrow, there is a hearing at BOM High Court regarding whether the terminations were illegal. If the court rules in favor of IPG, sacked pilots will probably be reinstated.

Regardless of the outcome of tomorrow's hearing, IPG has agreed in principle to file an affidavit stating that they are willing to return to work, pending interpretation of their lawyers. This affidavit is likely to be filed within 48 hours, at which point the strike will effectively be over.
However, until it is filed, it's still status quo.

If IPG is playing one tune in court and a different one outside, it's clear that IPG is nit acting in good faith.

If IPG is playing one tune in court and a different one outside, it's clear that IPG is nit acting in good faith.

Are they playing a different tune in courts and publicly?

Confirmation received from IPG rep - no discussions are taking place with AI mgmt tonight.

Times Now is (unsurprisingly) incorrect.

Are they playing a different tune in courts and publicly?
Clearly they are because all major news organizations are saying one thing and your source is saying another:
Confirmation received from IPG rep - no discussions are taking place with AI mgmt tonight.

Times Now is (unsurprisingly) incorrect.

IPG and the news organizations have been saying different things, but IPG has been pretty consistent with itself.

The news organizations were not citing the IPG when they said that discussions were taking place.

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More "facts" ?

And have they made a teenage fan their mouthpiece to the world ?

No wonder the airline is in the crapper.

Confirmation received from IPG rep - no discussions are taking place with AI mgmt tonight.

Times Now is (unsurprisingly) incorrect.
Your sources must be wrong since everyone else is saying that the strike has been called off. Here are some examples:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Air-India-pilots-end-their-strike-after-58-days/articleshow/14654887.cms
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/industry-and-economy/logistics/article3598094.ece?homepage=true
http://zeenews.india.com/business/news/companies/air-india-pilots-to-end-58-day-old-strike_54992.html

Confirmation received from IPG rep - no discussions are taking place with AI mgmt tonight.

Times Now is (unsurprisingly) incorrect.
Despite any special knowledge and connections you may have, I prefer to stick to something that is reported by ToI and Hindu and HT and other major Indian news sources. And the WSJ, which I hope you respect:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304708604577504750827102584.html

You're free to believe whoever you want. It'll become clear over the next few days who is correct.

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That last statement should be filed under "what never to say" and archived for posterity.

You're free to believe whoever you want. It'll become clear over the next few days who is correct.
You are right. Time will tell who was right and who wasn't.

Just to be clear, I have no reason to doubt that you accurately reported what you heard. It's just that what you were told might not have been fully correct.

IPG released a statement this morning (2AMish) saying that they will clear all legalities and return to work pending the result of today's case in BOM High Court regarding the legality of the terminations.

Both AI and IPG are claiming a "victory" in yesterday's case - the judge said that the airline should not discriminate between sacked and unsacked pilots, but she also did not force AI to take back all pilots.

Was this released to the public? Or is this yet another case of Mr A told Mrs B who told Miss C - who is Junior VP in charge of Afternoon Beverages (cold) - who told me?


For your own good, take a breath and read all the advice numerous people have given you.

That you need to have a serious re-think about the way you go about presenting your facts and how there is a difference between fact and fiction and fantasy. At this rate, your credibility, already far from robust, will be non-existent rather soon.

Was this released to the public?


Of course it was. It's a press release.

If you'd like, I'll forward the release to you. Just PM me your email address.

Of course it was. It's a press release.
Then why not include a link to it here, like everyone else does?

Then why not include a link to it here, like everyone else does?

Because it's in my email account, not on a webpage.

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Ah okay. Now I get it.

Instead of sending it to the press, they sent it to you.

So, a PVDDEL Release, rather than a Press Release.

Makes perfect sense.

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Ah okay. Now I get it.

Instead of sending it to the press, they sent it to you.

So, a PVDDEL Release, rather than a Press Release.

Makes perfect sense.

They sent it to the press... I'm on the press release mailing list.

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Of course they did. And of course you are.

And, of course, no publication carried it, but a fan did.

This gets better and better.

And, of course, no publication carried it, but a fan did.


Some publications carried it.. I posted an example above.

Some publications carried it.. I posted an example above.

Which ones exactly carried it between 2 am and 10 am today ? Is there a name, a link? Anything?

(besides aeroblogger.com - we all know how credible that is)

Maharaja has 257 pilots too many (http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/SectorsAviation/Maharaja-has-257-pilots-too-many/Article1-883462.aspx)
AI does not have re-hire sacked pilots.
Time to get down to business and fire 156 more.

So now the delightful union is saying that they will take to more months to go back to work.

At least according to (http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=767680) Tauseef Mukkadam (is he the same clueless clown who's been making the hilarious appearances on TV)?


None of them should be taken back; they should all be given the finger.

Of course, that's not going to happpen. So I would hope that, those that are re-hired, do not get any back pay, no consideration of the number of years spent at Air India in the past etc. They should be made to re-apply and start from scratch (with only their experience as a pilot in general counting for anything). I also think a probation period, with reduced benefits and other punitive measures, is something worth considering.

And this desire of mine may be a bit unrealistic: Pilot unions are disallowed by legislation. As if they are an exploited, impoverished group.


By the way, why were they doing their attention-whoring in Air India uniform when they're not actually employed by Air India?

So now the delightful union is saying that they will take to more months to go back to work.

At least according to (http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=767680) Tauseef Mukkadam (is he the same clueless clown who's been making the hilarious appearances on TV)?


None of them should be taken back; they should all be given the finger.

Of course, that's not going to happpen. So I would hope that, those that are re-hired, do not get any back pay, no consideration of the number of years spent at Air India in the past etc. They should be made to re-apply and start from scratch (with only their experience as a pilot in general counting for anything). I also think a probation period, with reduced benefits and other punitive measures, is something worth considering.

And this desire of mine may be a bit unrealistic: Pilot unions are disallowed by legislation. As if they are an exploited, impoverished group.


By the way, why were they doing their attention-whoring in Air India uniform when they're not actually employed by Air India?

Actually they were not in air India uniform. If you notice they were in a black trouser with a white shirt, epaulettes ( which don't have air India written on it ) and a black tie. Te tie for for air India is different and has the air India logo on it. The police will not allow you to wear any airline related stuff during a protest. So you effectively wear a normal pilot uniform without airline logos.


As for the excess pilots, a lot of pilots were employed till about 2007 because that is when the 787 were suppose to start coming in. They got delayed so deputations took place to express. Airline was trying to be ready or the aircraft but Boeing messed up. At the moment Ic is adequately staffed and AI is also for almost all the 787's. All they need to take into account is the retirements and those that leave the airline.

Actually they were not in air India uniform. If you notice they were in a black trouser with a white shirt, epaulettes ( which don't have air India written on it ) and a black tie. Te tie for for air India is different and has the air India logo on it. The police will not allow you to wear any airline related stuff during a protest. So you effectively wear a normal pilot uniform without airline logos.


As for the excess pilots, a lot of pilots were employed till about 2007 because that is when the 787 were suppose to start coming in. They got delayed so deputations took place to express. Airline was trying to be ready or the aircraft but Boeing messed up. At the moment Ic is adequately staffed and AI is also for almost all the 787's. All they need to take into account is the retirements and those that leave the airline.

While you're here, can you also explain the variety of things which have expired during the strike which will delay the pilots returning to duty?

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Thanks for that shahadil.

Truth be told, I didn't pay attention to the badges and logos, or their absence.

And I didn't think the police would care enough (or even have the authority) to regulate what they wear; I would think Air India would (should?).

By the way do you know if the base outfit (shirt, shoes, epaulettes, etc) are provided by AI or if the employees are required to purchase them (from designated suppliers). Not really relevant to this, but it can make a difference when it comes down to it.

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Thanks for that shahadil.

Truth be told, I didn't pay attention to the badges and logos, or their absence.

And I didn't think the police would care enough (or even have the authority) to regulate what they wear; I would think Air India would (should?).

By the way do you know if the base outfit (shirt, shoes, epaulettes, etc) are provided by AI or if the employees are required to purchase them (from designated suppliers). Not really relevant to this, but it can make a difference when it comes down to it.

The pilots want us to think they are so poor that they have no other clothes than their uniform. :D