Air France Frequence Plus - Discussed at the CDG DO: comparing AF & BA product/services

British Airways whose food is also considerably better.This is HIGHLY debatable. At any rate, this is not an opinion that I share. While AF is certainly not outstanding, neither is BA and I tend, on the whole, to prefer the former to the latter in C. I do not have enough F experience to pass meaningful judgment on it.

BA beats the pants off AF in C on the seat and the lounges at LHR and CDG respectively but not, imo, on onboard food.

Oh believe me AF heard some criticism. The FB people had that deer in the headlights look when we came at them! We were very polite though.

I think we will see some improvements on fuel surcharges on award tickets soon. And while some did criticize them about the 777 economy seats, I don't think there is any result to expect from that.

Also regarding seats, the CEO repeated his famous quote from earlier that by 2014 AF would be better than SQ for first and business class seats. I wondered about that later when someone said that AF would only lose one or two rows with this change?

Everybody hopes Juniac will change things but regarding seats would you believe that the product managers at AF for C or F are NOT (or at least were not) allowed to go and see what competition does! a little bit as if the man in charge at Audi of the 6 series was not allowed to drive a Mercedes E!!! Sounds incredible doesn't it but true, at least 2 years ago...
Consequently don't be surprised that the C class AF seat is the worst of all major airlines.

This is HIGHLY debatable. At any rate, this is not an opinion that I share. While AF is certainly not outstanding, neither is BA and I tend, on the whole, to prefer the former to the latter in C. I do not have enough F experience to pass meaningful judgment on it.

BA beats the pants off AF in C on the seat and the lounges at LHR and CDG respectively but not, imo, on onboard food.

Happy we share views on seats and lounges! and I would assume on wine selection too?

Happy we share views on seats and lounges! and I would assume on wine selection too?Yes, I would agree that wines tend to be better on BA (albeit not stellar).

I know Poussier and he's quite a walking encyclopedia on wines! he is right in the average production of the Burgundy estates ... the only problems is that foreign airlines manage to get them (BA for instance with a very good to outstanding selection in F)

Yes I live in Burgundy and know the wines well and I fly BA often and you are right they have a good selection and currently better wines than AF in business class. However AF F class is better than BA F based on recent trips this year. Much better in fact. As we were supposed to be having a good time I didn't want to be argumentative with M. Poussier and bring up BA, EK, etc.

Forgot to mention that the BA F lounge at LHR T5, which is accessible to anyone with a Gold card, has vastly better wines than the AF Affaires salons at CDG.

Forgot to mention that the BA F lounge at LHR T5, which is accessible to anyone with a Gold card, has vastly better wines than the AF Affaires salons at CDG.

Fantastically better! and always a minimum of 4 reds + 4 whites + 2 champagnes not forgetting the cold buffet plus a fews dishes they can prepare on order!
When I had asked the AF Business Class product manager if he had seen it, he told me he was not allowed to travel with competition... to be honest this comment was made to me 2 years ago.
By the way I share you love of Burgundy even if my favorites are the Northern Rhones.

Forgot to mention that the BA F lounge at LHR T5, which is accessible to anyone with a Gold card, has vastly better wines than the AF Affaires salons at CDG.Amen to that. As they say, 'il n'y a pas photo' (even though we no longer get the occasionally unbelievably nice bottles we used to get in the very early days of T5).

When I had asked the AF Business Class product manager if he had seen it, he told me he was not allowed to travel with competition... to be honest this comment was made to me 2 years ago.


Well, one of the AF staff we met during our 1.5 days at CDG told us that he had had the opportunity, as part of his job, to go benchmark the First Class lounges of BA (CCR) and LH (FCT).

Amen to that. As they say, 'il n'y a pas photo' (even though we no longer get the occasionally unbelievably nice bottles we used to get in the very early days of T5).

You are right that it has become infrequent, but I did get a nice F-class bottle recently (cannot remember which one). Was an evening departure.
I find C experience on BA MUCH, much superior to AF: website booking and MMB, seat (Upper deck with my wife is the best seat of all airlines), lounge, service during whole flight. Not mentioning periodic upgrade to F, better FFP, recognition, Access to F lounges on OW worldwide.
Indeed wines at lounge in T5 are better than onboard AF. Food is plentiful bu soso, so no better than AF.
I also heard the story that AF management is not supposed to travel on other airlines. Wonder why.

I find C experience on BA MUCH, much superior to AFAgreed. This does not affect me as BAEC Gold but the one blackspot for non-elites are seat assignments in C for a fee. I find it rather tacky and not appropriate for premium class.

The AF guys I spoke to at the do all conceded BA was No1 European carrier and will be that way for many years to come. AF have a LOT of catching up to do!

Agreed. This does not affect me as BAEC Gold but the one blackspot for non-elites are seat assignments in C for a fee. I find it rather tacky and not appropriate for premium class.

Needless to say, I disagree. One can hardly claim that elite+ should have more benefits while being unhappy with BAEC policy on seating. Elite (and full-fare pax) can select good longhaul seats because those are not preempted by non-elites, especially those OW awards. If one wishes to be sure to be able to select good J seats, then one should pay the price for it (namely full fare). Unfortunately good seats can only be booked by one pax, so it is a matter of assigning priority. Should those go to non-status leisure travelers who book six months ahead on deep-discounted or free tickets, or be reserved to their most loyal customers? Many good airlines are blocking seats. Unfortunately AF does not do it in J. I know that I can usually get a good seat if I reserve last minute on BA, but cannot on AF. Guess what airline I choose?

BAEC elite can also preassign seats on all domestic and European flights. I wished AF would do that.

Needless to say, I disagree. One can hardly claim that elite+ should have more benefits while being unhappy with BAEC policy on seating. Elite (and full-fare pax) can select good longhaul seats because those are not preempted by non-elites, especially those OW awards. I MUCH preferred the previous policy of reserving the best seats to BAEC Golds while allowing non elites to book 'ordinary' seats. With the new paid-for seats, instead of reserving seats for elites, they are available to everybody who pays the fee. Result: a gold member buying a full fare ticket relatively late will have a much more limited choice of seats than was the case before as many will be taken by your "six months ahead on deep-discounted or free tickets" pax who have paid the fee.

Another problem of the new system is that it creates logistical difficulties for pax traveling together as a greater number of pax find themselves separated than under the old system.

BAEC elite can also preassign seats on all domestic and European flights. I wished AF would do that.Agreed. I did raise this in our group discussions at the DO.

I MUCH preferred the previous policy of reserving the best seats to BAEC Golds while allowing non elites to book 'ordinary' seats. With the new paid-for seats, instead of reserving seats for elites, they are available to everybody who pays the fee. Result: a gold member buying a full fare ticket relatively late will have a much more limited choice of seats than was the case before as many will be taken by your "six months ahead on deep-discounted or free tickets" pax who have paid the fee.


I agree with you. The old system was better. The new one allows BA to get more revenues. But it must be that few people accept to pay the fee as I never had problems recently. Maybe I was lucky.

The AF guys I spoke to at the do all conceded BA was No1 European carrier and will be that way for many years to come. AF have a LOT of catching up to do!

By 2014 AF will be better than SQ and pass BA along the way. That's DO related.
But this forum is certainly catching up on BA. it is frequent to see the threads diverge in all directions and a humorous poster, like Chrissxb, redirect us in a friendly fashion. Although I am not sure that a benchmarking with BA is so unrelated to the DO discussion as BA has been extensively mentioned.

That being said, this humble poster from far away is happy that the expensive investment made by AF on 41 one of us paid off given all the sparkling stars in attendees' posts. A bit jealous too :)

I agree on a number of things said above. Currently:

- the BA long haul J seat is vastly better than the AF one (and agree with brunos that the upper deck on 744 is very pleasant especially certain seats!)
- BA lounges are vastly better than AF ones (especially gold lounges, but even normal lounges have hot food and a less stupid wifi system)

I would add that overall BA short haul C is vastly better than AF short haul C.

However, I agree with NickB that to me, AF long haul J food is certainly not less good than BA's and indeed by my book tends to be better (there was one exception on a recent trip from LAX to LHR when I had great food with BA but that was not confirmed in my next two returns).

On wines, I must say that I am not all that fascinated by BA wines in C/J (I do agree there are excellent wines in the F lounge at LHR though) even though I find the AF selection possibly even slightly more mediocre. On short haul in C, AF wines tend to be better than BA's (but no spirits which I find outright "mesquin" on AF C).

I like service on both, I have had more wonderful stories on AF than on BA but fewer horrid exceptions on BA than AF too. My own experience would probably give a small edge to AF overall but I do not believe in trends in service levels, more in individual luck.

I don't think there is much point in pre-empting the quality of the future AF J seat. What I have seen looks very good but let's not count the chickens yet and hopefully BA might improve their offer further by that time too as they tend to be more (or more quickly) reactive. I tend to like AF products better than BA's in Y with the exception of the 10-across 777 and the no-recline NEO seat which starts making a hell of a lot of exceptions. Y+ is a disgrace on BA a bit better on AF but I still don't like it. I'm not fortunate enough to fly F unless I get an upgrade so won't get into the comparison there :(

My personal two pence summary would be: BA is a better airline than AF, but I currently have more hope for the AF slope than for the BA one as I have had more negative experiences with BA recently on and disliked almost all recent changes on BA.

Yes I live in Burgundy and know the wines well and I fly BA often and you are right they have a good selection and currently better wines than AF in business class. However AF F class is better than BA F based on recent trips this year. Much better in fact. As we were supposed to be having a good time I didn't want to be argumentative with M. Poussier and bring up BA, EK, etc.

No need to be argumentative. He's certainly tasked to select a set amount of bottles yearly for a set price. The problem with Burgundy is the small productions size. OK. To feature them, AF would need to split their wine offering between a larger amount of producers, with varied offerings (per route? Switching more frequently?) as others do. The problem doesn't lie with producers but with the constraints imposed on buyer. I am not sure wine standardization (instead of quality) is a big plus looked for by premium pax.

No need to be argumentative. He's certainly tasked to select a set amount of bottles yearly for a set price. The problem with Burgundy is the small productions size. OK. To feature them, AF would need to split their wine offering between a larger amount of producers, with varied offerings (per route? Switching more frequently?) as others do. The problem doesn't lie with producers but with the constraints imposed on buyer. I am not sure wine standardization (instead of quality) is a big plus looked for by premium pax.

Couldn't agree more. 'Burgundy doesn't have producers who do produce enough bottles for us to buy from them' says nothing about Burgundy and everything about the buyer's wine strategy. It is, to say the least, paradoxical that an airline like Korean can regularly treat its J customers to excellent samples of Burgundy or Alsace wine (I had a Corton Grand Cru in one of my latest flights with them. Compare to your standard AF or BA offering...) and AF cannot. They prefer to go for something repetitive and 'mainstream' in many ways (despite odd claims to 'look for great wines from less well known areas', which I always presume means the single example of the Cigalus which Poussier and AF admittedly exposed a few years ago). I also find that altitude is often used as a rather clumsy excuse. Altitude and lack of oxygen do change the way a wine behaves in the glass and in the mouth, but ultimately, rubbish remains rubbish 30,000 feet above sea level and even slightly deteriorated outstanding wines remain great wines for the most part, as anyone who has enjoyed a glass or two of Comtes de Champagne in the air will be able to confirm...

I agree on a number of things said above.As is so often the case, I agree with most of what you say in that post with just a few differences:

I would have a slightly different view on long-haul Y on AF and BA (I marginally prefer BA) but I have been lucky enough to manage to avoid Y on both of them on long-haul for some time so I do not feel especially able to put forward an uptodate view on this.

Re WT+, yes: it is poor. For me, it is pure upgrade class for MFU. That said, although I have not experienced it myself, the recent innovation of offering CW main meals to WT+ pax reported on the BA forum seems to me to be a notable improvement.

On other recent changes, there is some seriously positive elements to take in FFP changes: Reward flight savers now make intra-European redemptions attractive again, even in Y. To my knowledge, there is not a single European scheme which is remotely as attractive as BA for short/medium-haul redemptions.
On the earning front, the 100% earning in all eco classes on all BA and AA flights (and IB tatl services) is also a solid positive for BAEC.

Or course, the harmonisation of elite thresholds at the UK level and the sector-based approach to redemptions is less welcome for members based in continental Europe and so was the loss of open doors. Even with these negatives, it seems to me that BAEC remains a solid FFP, certainly better than FB (the one significant shortcoming of BAEC, imo, is relatively poor award availability on quite a number of routes in particular to Asia, especially for those of us who have been spoilt by BD's DC and *A for this).

It is, to say the least, paradoxical that an airline like Korean can regularly treat its J customers to excellent samples of Burgundy or Alsace wine (I had a Corton Grand Cru in one of my latest flights with them. Compare to your standard AF or BA offering...) and AF cannot.Quite. Again, Asian airlines prove their superiority over European ones here.

Quite. Again, Asian airlines prove their superiority over European ones here.

Depends on which one: take TG for instance, the cabin service is great but the wines are absolutly terrible, a bloody shame. They serve a standard Moet & Chandon Brut in F long haul!!!:td:

Couldn't agree more. 'Burgundy doesn't have producers who do produce enough bottles for us to buy from them' says nothing about Burgundy and everything about the buyer's wine strategy. It is, to say the least, paradoxical that an airline like Korean can regularly treat its J customers to excellent samples of Burgundy or Alsace wine (I had a Corton Grand Cru in one of my latest flights with them. Compare to your standard AF or BA offering...) and AF cannot. They prefer to go for something repetitive and 'mainstream' in many ways (despite odd claims to 'look for great wines from less well known areas', which I always presume means the single example of the Cigalus which Poussier and AF admittedly exposed a few years ago). I also find that altitude is often used as a rather clumsy excuse. Altitude and lack of oxygen do change the way a wine behaves in the glass and in the mouth, but ultimately, rubbish remains rubbish 30,000 feet above sea level and even slightly deteriorated outstanding wines remain great wines for the most part, as anyone who has enjoyed a glass or two of Comtes de Champagne in the air will be able to confirm...

I agree 100% with everything you wrote. True you can get bad wine for a big price but Poussier knows his job. For long haul C class they allow him less than USD 10 per wine bottle, except for Bordeaux possibly 14. No one can get a great or even a very good bottle at those price ranges. So we are back to the basic issue: is it normal to serve USD 10 wines on routes where AF charges USD 7500 return in C (Paris to Brazzaville for instance). My answer is: :mad:

Re WT+, yes: it is poor. For me, it is pure upgrade class for MFU. That said, although I have not experienced it myself, the recent innovation of offering CW main meals to WT+ pax reported on the BA forum seems to me to be a notable improvement.

On other recent changes, there is some seriously positive elements to take in FFP changes: Reward flight savers now make intra-European redemptions attractive again, even in Y. To my knowledge, there is not a single European scheme which is remotely as attractive as BA for short/medium-haul redemptions.
On the earning front, the 100% earning in all eco classes on all BA and AA flights (and IB tatl services) is also a solid positive for BAEC.



Totally agree on the 100% award miles earning, and also the cheapest %TP on BA is 50% as opposed to 25% on AF, which is measly, especially on long haul.

And re-your point on WT+ exactly right, while WT+ is total rubbish (I had the misfortune to try it, complete waste of money in my view as a flying option) it has at least the decency to be upgradable into J for a decent price even in the cheapest bucket, which is not possible with AF even with the latter's much higher's mile price. J -> F upgrades are also decent on BA and ridiculous on AF. By contrast, AF/KL promo awards are rather decent particularly in J, while BA has few if any promotions for straight J awards.

I'm personally less enthusiastic about the intra-European redemption scheme on BA. I think it is great on flights to/from the UK but I never use my redemptions for flights to/from the UK as paid tickets tend to be cheap on the routes I use, and for any more complex itinerary, the 'per segment' charge makes things significantly less attractive. However, even though surcharge is doubled if you have multiple international segments in your European itinerary, I agree that BA was clever to be the first to propose fixed price. I think it might be worth re-exploring this question in a short while though as several European airlines are rumoured to be in 'rethinking' mood on this particular question.

Totally agree on the 100% award miles earning, and also the cheapest %TP on BA is 50% as opposed to 25% on AF, which is measly, especially on long haul. Unfortunately, the lowest earning on BA for most partners (other than AA and IB) IS 25%. This produces dramatic differences depending on the marketing carrier: cheapest eco LHR-HEL under BA code will earn you 2268 each way as a Silver or Gold but only 284 if you fly under AY code. Similarly, cheapest eco LHR-HKG under BA code will earn 11958 each way for a Silver/Gold but only 1495 if under CX code.


I'm personally less enthusiastic about the intra-European redemption scheme on BA. I think it is great on flights to/from the UK but I never use my redemptions for flights to/from the UK as paid tickets tend to be cheap on the routes I use, and for any more complex itinerary, the 'per segment' charge makes things significantly less attractive. You are right that it only really beats the others to/from UK (but then again, apart from some West Europe to Scandinavia routes, using BA intra-Europe often only make sense to/from UK/IRL even on revenue tickets). Roughly speaking, and valuing an avios at approx £0.0075, a zone 1 award segment in eco (eg: LHR-CPH. LHR-MIL, etc...) including tax costs under £50, zone 2 (LHR-LIS, LHR-ARN, LHR-BUD, etc...) £70 and zone 3 (LHR-ATH, LHR-KBP, etc) £90. When you can still get tickets in the cheaper buckets (typically O or N class), a revenue ticket will be cheaper. As soon as the cheaper buckets are exhausted, Avios redemptions begin to be attractive on many routes (and award availability is normally much better than O or N class). The price remains more or less the same whether using Avios or Avios+cash, the latter halving the number of avios needed.

I agree that BA was clever to be the first to propose fixed price. I think it might be worth re-exploring this question in a short while though as several European airlines are rumoured to be in 'rethinking' mood on this particular question.

LH M&M let you pay taxes in miles but the cost is quite substantial compared to Avios. Our group at the DO never got round to discussing the question of taxes on redemptions due to lack of time but I was under the impression that a model FB were toying with was closer to the LH model than the BA/Avios one. Those who know better can correct me on this.

Depends on which one: take TG for instance, the cabin service is great but the wines are absolutly terrible, a bloody shame. They serve a standard Moet & Chandon Brut in F long haul!!!:td:

Sorry, but I take TG quite often and that is simply not true.
Here is the latest wine list I got in F:
White:
-Clos des Mouches, Beaune 1er Cru 2007 (Chason)
Reds:
- Nuits Saint Georges 2008
- Chateau Pedesclaux 2007
Champagne:
- Dom Pérignon 2002
- VC Rosé 2004.

They always serve the Dom Pérignon on longhaul.
It is true that on regional flights, they do not serve the Dom Pérignon (but they do serve the white and red burgundies). But would you compare to what AF serves on intra-European flights.
Actually, I also find teh J wiens very nice with a good red burgundy (I recetly had a Pommard on a regional flight).

No need to be argumentative. He's certainly tasked to select a set amount of bottles yearly for a set price. The problem with Burgundy is the small productions size. OK. To feature them, AF would need to split their wine offering between a larger amount of producers, with varied offerings (per route? Switching more frequently?) as others do. The problem doesn't lie with producers but with the constraints imposed on buyer. I am not sure wine standardization (instead of quality) is a big plus looked for by premium pax.

It is true that burgundy production is "smaller", but it is nevertheless very large compared to the consumption on airlines. Indeed, the production of Romanée Conti is small and too expensive for airlines, so are the greatest red or white burgundies. But there is a huge production of 1er Cru in Cote de Beaune or Cote de Nuits or Meursault. I fly regularly most Asian airlines and most offer some nice burgundy wines. They may have to change their wine list every six months, they may have to work with a couple of good burgundies on a rotation basis, but there is ample supply of Nuits Saint Georges, Volnay, Puligny Montrachet, Meursault, etc...
I am afraid that the reason AF is not serving top burgundies is that they are expensive so they sometimes go down to Macon, Mercurey or resort to the blabla of "good" wines from mediocre appellations.

. To my knowledge, there is not a single European scheme which is remotely as attractive as BA for short/medium-haul redemptions.
.

SK Eurobonus 100% earnings in discount economy
no fuel surchage on neither short- nor long-haul


. On the earning front, the 100% earning in all eco classes on all BA and AA flights (and IB tatl services) is also a solid positive for BAEC. .

It is 100% on IB short-haul, including domestic, as well

You are right that it only really beats the others to/from UK (but then again, apart from some West Europe to Scandinavia routes, using BA intra-Europe often only make sense to/from UK/IRL even on revenue tickets)..

Reward Flight Saver is also for Iberia* flights from Spain to Europe
and it does include domestic flights in Spain (except to the Canaries).
eg. AMS-MAD-ALC will cost 7.500 Avios and £13 or
15.000 £17 in Business (exceptional value since IB unlike BA, does have a domestic business class)


* and also for the BA Franchaises Comair(South Africa) and Sun Air(Denmark)