Flying Blue (Air France, KLM, and Other Partners) - fare class O not always available for upgrade?

Hello! I just was on the phone with FB, trying to get an award upgrade for a U class ticket for KL810 on wed Sep 5. As the online award booking tool suggested, and as was confirmed by the agent on the phone the O bucket was available. However he could not upgrade my ticket since "this was the wrong kind of O class". So apparently there is "O for award tickets" and "O for upgrade awards".

I'm sure many of you know about this. Is it possible to check somewhere online if "the right kind of O is available"? And if not, when would be a good time to call again to see if something became available?

This is news to me...

Expertflyer lists fareclass O as "Business - Classic Award & Upgrade (O)" for both Air France and KLM. In the past, I've managed to upgrade if there was O availability without any hint of sub-classes within O.

Though who's to say this hasn't changed?

Perhaps your agent was misinformed. I'd be tempted to try again, with a different agent, and see what they say. And if they say the same thing, find out when (and why!) this changed, because I think this must be new, if correct!

Have you tred upgrading from My Reservations online?

I tried calling again and talked with another agent. He confirmed that I could book a classic award on that flight but not an upgrade award. He was not sure what the reason was, but thought it could be because this is "extra elite availability" for award tickets, which is not available for upgrades. The fact that expertflyer lists 0 availability for O seems to confirm this.

Perhaps 'the O bucket' is just an alias they use for 'award seats'. So there is inventory available for Awards, just not the basic kind (= the actual O bucket). As you know there are more buckets used for awards, but these are not available for upgrades.

O is available on CGK-KUL but not CKG-AMS (it is a one-stop with the same flight number) - so if you want it to AMS they are right. FYI O is for awards and upgrades. Best to keep checking - typically you'll see a O open up a week/few days before.

O is available on CGK-KUL but not CKG-AMS (it is a one-stop with the same flight number) - so if you want it to AMS they are right. FYI O is for awards and upgrades. Best to keep checking - typically you'll see a O open up a week/few days before.

I wanted it from KUL to AMS. It lists as O0 in expertflyer, but is available as "classic award" in the award web booking system. Presumably because it is "extra elite availability".

In any case let's hope it becomes available!

I wanted it from KUL to AMS. It lists as O0 in expertflyer, but is available as "classic award" in the award web booking system. Presumably because it is "extra elite availability".

It's a POS (http://Help.KVSTool.com/#Factors) issue:

[KVS Availability Tool 6.9.9.R3/Diamond - Amadeus: Awards/SkyTeam/FR-AF] (http://www.KVSTool.com/)
KUL Kuala Lumpur Metro / Intl MY = KUL SZB [WMKK]
AMS Amsterdam Schiphol NL [EHAM]
WED 05 Sep 2012 | 1 Seat

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive St Availability
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ------------
KL 810 KUL 23:15 AMS 05:55 +1 CS9 YS9
CZ 350 KUL 13:20 CAN 17:20 CS2 YS2
-> CZ 307 CAN 23:55 AMS 06:45 +1
CI 722 KUL 14:40 TPE 19:20 CS+ YX0
-> CI 65 TPE 22:45 AMS 09:15 +1


[KVS Availability Tool 6.9.9.R3/Diamond - Amadeus: Awards/SkyTeam/US-AF] (http://www.KVSTool.com/)
KUL Kuala Lumpur Metro / Intl MY = KUL SZB [WMKK]
AMS Amsterdam Schiphol NL [EHAM]
WED 05 Sep 2012 | 1 Seat

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive St Availability
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ------------
KL 810 KUL 23:15 AMS 05:55 +1 CX- YA+
CZ 350 KUL 13:20 CAN 17:20 CS+ YX-
-> CZ 307 CAN 23:55 AMS 06:45 +1
CI 722 KUL 14:40 TPE 19:20 CS+ YX-
-> CI 65 TPE 22:45 AMS 09:15 +1

interesting, thanks! The POS of my ticket is the Netherlands. How do I know which POS is relevant for upgrade availability?

interesting, thanks! The POS of my ticket is the Netherlands. How do I know which POS is relevant for upgrade availability?

The NL POS is also showing plenty of Award/Upgrade Availability -- have you tried calling a different FB service centre?

[KVS Availability Tool 6.9.9.R3/Diamond - Amadeus: Awards/SkyTeam/NL-AF] (http://www.KVSTool.com/)
KUL Kuala Lumpur Metro / Intl MY = KUL SZB [WMKK]
AMS Amsterdam Schiphol NL [EHAM]
WED 05 Sep 2012 | 1 Seat

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive St Availability
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ------------
KL 810 KUL 23:15 AMS 05:55 +1 CS9 YS9
CZ 350 KUL 13:20 CAN 17:20 CS+ YS+
-> CZ 307 CAN 23:55 AMS 06:45 +1
CI 722 KUL 14:40 TPE 19:20 CS+ YX0
-> CI 65 TPE 22:45 AMS 09:15 +1

As mentioned in a previous thread a couple of years ago, KLM discriminate availability based on point of sale.

There will always be less availability for POS in the US then for European POS. That's their way to deal with SkyMiles member lurking all the availability.

Do they look at the POS of the original ticket, or the callcenter youre talking to to buy the upgrade?

Do they look at the POS of the original ticket, or the callcenter youre talking to to buy the upgrade?

In both cases there should be availability according to the above information. (POS of ticket is NL, call center was the Dutch one). Yet I was informed (twice) that I could book a classic award on this route, but that there was no availability for upgrades.

I'd call again - O is for both so should be fine - ask for supervisor otherwise.

I called once more, and it was again confirmed that it can happen that there is "classic award" availability but not "upgrade award" availability, and that this is the case with KL810 KUL-AMS on Sep 5. The people at the (Dutch) phone center use different systems to check those availabilities.

Do we have any FB/KL/AF source stating that classic award availability is the same as award upgrade availability?

Do we have any FB/KL/AF source stating that classic award availability is the same as award upgrade availability?

No. But that's the kind of detail that they would not publish to the general public (though perhaps they publish it to Travel Agents - though unlikely, given that TAs can't upgrade existing bookings, that has to be done via Flying Blue).

This is really a strange thing. I upgrade a lot (Expertflyer always shows non-zero O when I upgrade) and never had any problem. Can we find out more about this? How are these buckets differentiated?

What's FT?

Maybe call a non-Dutch FB center (Canada?). I am very surprised they can differentiate between the two.

Sorry for the confusion. I have corrected my post. Don't know why I wrote FT instead of expertflyer.

Maybe call a non-Dutch FB center (Canada?). I am very surprised they can differentiate between the two.

The Canadian FB center states that classic and upgrade "is the same availability", but also states that there is no availability for the desired flight (consistent with the KVS data showing no availability for POS=US).

It is beginning to smell more and more like a computer bug.

I checked with the Paris office (good opportunity to practice my French!) and I talked with somebody very helpful. He was very surprised that I saw classic award availability on the website, because according to his system there is neither classic nor upgrade award availability on the flight. He double-checked with a supervisor, and confirmed that no availability could be found.

So we have:

* websystem: classic award availability (cannot check upgrade availability since "manage my booking" does not work properly for this ticket)
* Dutch office: classic award availability but no upgrade availability
* French office: no availability at all
* KVS: O bucket available for POS in NL/FR

AFKL award booking system is prone to bugs. They sometimes show "phantom" availability, meaning that it shows availability but the system bugs after your enter your credit card number. On the other hand, I find EF quite reliable. When there is O0 on EF, but availability on the AF award engine, it usually bugs.
But my experience is limited, so there could be other issues.
Your flight shows no availability on EF; availability of classic awards (80Km) on the AF webengine; but when I start with the klm website, I only find availability for flew awards (160Km). That is weird and the opposite of your experience with call centers. I would bet that you cannot complete the booking of a classic award using the AF website. But I did not go through the whole process for obvious reasons.

Just for completeness: today I checked at the FB desk in the AMS Schengen lounge and also here they confirmed that classic awards are available for this flight, but that there is no upgrade availability.

Since DL gives their members a lot of miles, bonuses, upgrade certificates etc. that can be used on DL and AF. Since DL hardly release J award space and AF/KL are quite generous, all DL folks are using these perks on AF flights making FB members left with few or none upgrade and award possibilities using miles dearly earned at 25% in cheap eco...

However, AF might have found a good solution: on POS = US, no availability => DL skypesos office cannot upgrade their members on AF flights (at least as much as FB members can book DL flights with miles). But on POS = Europe, availability => AFKL European members can book awards and upgrades through their own office/website. For once, I find this quite clever.

Since DL hardly release J award space and AF/KL are quite generous, all DL folks are using these perks on AF flights making FB members left with few or none upgrade and award possibilities using miles dearly earned at 25% in cheap eco...
That's actually debatable. I found KL very stingy with O inventory (AF seems more generous though). DL is more generous with miles, but it can be quite a pain to use them. They employ all sorts of tricks to discourage award bookings, including a very broken booking engine, a 3 tier award structure which is specifically meant to screw people out of miles and draconian award inventory controls. Upgrading using DL SWUs or SkyPesos is difficult because you have to buy a M, B or Y fare. As a FB member, you can upgrade KL flights (especially out of AMS) from any fare by paying the upcharge + miles.