Japan - Does nobody worry about Fukushima's aftermath anymore?

This is more a question to long term visitors of Japan than just tourists.

I'm just surprised that everyone seems to have no worries regarding the aftermath anymore. I'm by no means a doom thinker, but I'd be worried to stay in Japan for longer than a month. My main concerns would be:

-food safety: radio isotopes do not vanish into thin air and I'm shocked to see that Japan still allows food grown from contaminated sites on the market. It is jeopardising the health of many, for the perceived sake of a few farmers (I'm convinced they would be better off if they would just be told to forget their farms and get a very substantial financial compensation). Especially regarding processed foods, you don't even know where it comes from.

-burning radioactive rubble in Tokyo and other large cities, in incinerators not designed for radiactive material: what the hell are they thinking?

-downplaying the risk of the exposed spent fuel pools

-insisting that only a 30 km radius is a hazardous zone, while ignoring other hotspots and that the wind has not unidirectionally spread the mess

I hope that I'm just being paranoid. But IMO the Japanese government has so far done nothing than hide, lie and confuse, and frankly I don't believe a word it says. I believe the situation is not critical, but much more serious than the average Japanese citizen or tourist believes.

What do you propose should be done about it?

As I mentioned above, I think the Japanese government should:

-ban all farming in contaminated areas, while generously compensating the farmers and give them further career guidance. It is my belief that these farmers will lose their business anyway

-immediately stop the idiotic idea of burning radioactive rubble in the midst of the most populated areas. There should be more creative solutions regarding stocking it as some sort of enclosed landfill for some years

-just be honest. I don't buy the argument of "to avoid panic" rationales. People can deal with bad news, the worst case for humans is insecurity, and this is exactly what the government is causing.
And of course there are many unknowns, in that case just say "we don't know"

What do you propose should be done about it?

This is more a question to long term visitors of Japan than just tourists.

I'm just surprised that everyone seems to have no worries regarding the aftermath anymore. I'm by no means a doom thinker, but I'd be worried to stay in Japan for longer than a month. My main concerns would be:

-food safety: radio isotopes do not vanish into thin air and I'm shocked to see that Japan still allows food grown from contaminated sites on the market. It is jeopardising the health of many, for the perceived sake of a few farmers (I'm convinced they would be better off if they would just be told to forget their farms and get a very substantial financial compensation). Especially regarding processed foods, you don't even know where it comes from.

-burning radioactive rubble in Tokyo and other large cities, in incinerators not designed for radiactive material: what the hell are they thinking?

-downplaying the risk of the exposed spent fuel pools

-insisting that only a 30 km radius is a hazardous zone, while ignoring other hotspots and that the wind has not unidirectionally spread the mess

I hope that I'm just being paranoid. But IMO the Japanese government has so far done nothing than hide, lie and confuse, and frankly I don't believe a word it says. I believe the situation is not critical, but much more serious than the average Japanese citizen or tourist believes.

You are wrong. Many worry. But to say you would not live in Japan for more than a month is idiotic and very much the chicken little mindset not needed. Study radiation and you will see .

All of my food is bought from places that source their food in the west of Japan. All stores advertise where food is from. Not hard to manage at all.

Burning radioactive rubble is a concern, but very limited n exposure as it is burned away from major areas.

Fuel pools are 300+ km away from Tokyo, not a concern for Tokyoites.

Nobody in their right mind believes the Japanese government, but enough 3rd party data exists to make informed decisions. You should read up before posting.

What a ridiculous thread.

I'll take it at face value your concern for Japan and its citizens. I can't accept your gall to analyze the situation, evaluate the options and recommend how they run their country... all just because you decided to start a blog post.

Let's look at it another way. Of course, all Americans love having foreigners come in and say, "you know, America, here's what's wrong and how you should fix it". That goes over real well in America.

If a longtime FT'er based in Japan starts a thread about Japan, that will be worth reading.

Perhaps the FT'ers in Japan are too civil to say this: Your post is really, really condescending.

Thanks for trying to save the world.

-food safety: radio isotopes do not vanish into thin air and I'm shocked to see that Japan still allows food grown from contaminated sites on the market. It is jeopardising the health of many, for the perceived sake of a few farmers (I'm convinced they would be better off if they would just be told to forget their farms and get a very substantial financial compensation). Especially regarding processed foods, you don't even know where it comes from.

That's what food inspection is for.

-insisting that only a 30 km radius is a hazardous zone, while ignoring other hotspots and that the wind has not unidirectionally spread the mess

Unless you have a Geiger counter, are able to find a hot spot and then ingest or inhale the soil, I'm not sure what you're worried about.

I grew up in an era when both the U.S. and the Soviet Union and later China were testing nuclear weapons in the atmosphere pretty frequently. Anyone who grew up in the Northern Hemisphere in those days must have been thoroughly irradiated.

One of the concerns that led to the Nuclear Test Ban treaty was finding high levels of Strontium 90 in milk, so I must have ingested a lot of radioactivity, too.

I'm going to worry about going to Tokyo? I wonder how the amount of radiation released from the Fukushima reactors compares with the amount that was in the air at any one time before 1963.

What a ridiculous thread.

Aw c'mon. Don't you agree that it's very valuable to know that some guy on the interwebs reckons one month is the limit for staying in Japan? That's the kind of insight we've been waiting for. Of course, we don't know if this a limit like the sell by date on milk, where one day later you're spitting out a vile, sour concoction... Perhaps it's more like, say, eggs - after the "best before" date, they might not be fit for mayonnaise, but you could probably risk them fried or poached. I don't think it's like eggs, because you can check eggs by putting them in a bowl of water, which isn't a test that I've heard to be effective for irradiated people. But then again, has anyone tried it? Maybe not. Why isn't the Japanese government dunking Fukushima residents in a bowl of water to see if there's a correlation between people's ability to float and exposure to ionizing energy? This is the kind of action that I want to see. Damn. There's so much to this, it probably deserves three or four threads. But at least we're OK as long as we limit our stay in Japan to less than a month. Hey, but how about those disputed islands? Could you stretch it to two months in the places that other countries lay claim to?

Why isn't the Japanese government dunking Fukushima residents in a bowl of water to see if there's a correlation between people's ability to float and exposure to ionizing energy?

Are you suggesting that radiation turns people into witches? That would be more scientific than the OP's quality musings.

Are you suggesting that radiation turns people into witches? That would be more scientific than the OP's quality musings.

But why let science get in the way of a good theory (http://www.thegodlessheathen.com/img/2011/9/isaac-asimov-on-anti-intellectualism.jpeg)?

Are you suggesting that radiation turns people into witches?

There's only one way to know for sure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

Good to hear the humorous banter here. Whether or not you agree with the OP it is quite a serious topic of course. I'll be moving to tokyo later this year for a two year assignment. Before it was near impossible to get this assignment, but there were very few takers this time no doubt due to concerns about fukushima. Am not too worried, but find myself having to explain this to others on a regular basis.

Thank you all for ridiculing and insulting me, instead of having an adult discussion by providing rationales based on evidence.

Of course, this topic is much less valid and important than whether people in Japan wear shorts or not.

Study radiation and you will see .


That must be it. I don't know anything about radiation, because I'm just a nuclear engineer with a PhD in physics that has only studied the safety designs of nuclear fission plants for 6 years in a previous career. Please enlighten me with your genius insight.




Burning radioactive rubble is a concern, but very limited n exposure as it is burned away from major areas.


Of course, it is burned far away from major areas, this is obvious as Tokyo and Kanagawa are so extremele sparsely populated, and there is no wind in Japan to distribute the resulting particles


Fuel pools are 300+ km away from Tokyo, not a concern for Tokyoites.

Of course not. 300 km is an unimaginably huge distance in the case of a major nuclear accident. And wind and clouds filled with rain cannot travel over such distances.



If a longtime FT'er based in Japan starts a thread about Japan, that will be worth reading.

Perhaps the FT'ers in Japan are too civil to say this: Your post is really, really condescending.


I am based in Japan. And I fail to understand why a member with a 1000 posts would have a more legitimate opinion.

I fail to see where I'm condescending. I asked an (in my opinion) legitimate question and replied to Hailstorms question what I would and would not do if I were in charge.


Thanks for trying to save the world.

Thank you for insulting me. That is a much more valuable approach

Thank you all for ridiculing and insulting me, instead of having an adult discussion by providing rationales based on evidence.

What evidence did you bring to the table? Seems like the burden of proving that we should be running around in fear like headless chickens belongs to you.

We treated you like any scaremonger should be treated: with ridicule.

What evidence did you bring to the table? Seems like the burden of proving that we should be running around in fear like headless chickens belongs to you.

We treated you like any scaremonger should be treated: with ridicule.

+1. Coming from a worry wart like you Hailstorm this is a true indictment.

OP - Give us evidence showing at what level of radiation ingestion or exposure there is demonstrable link to morbidity or mortality.

Ok, I give up, it's clearly impossible to have an objective discussion on this subforum.

In conclusion:
Do not worry, there is no residual risk at the Fukushima plant, even if there would be another major earthquake. It could never jeopardise the spent fuel pools, and Fukushima is lightyears away from Tokyo anyway.
In fact, nothing happened at all in Fukushima daiichi, it's just a conspiracy theory by scaremongers like me.

Also, there is no contamination whatsoever, anywhere in Japan.

In fact, radiation is good for you, refer to the hormesis theory.

Don't worry, be happy.

+1. Coming from a worry wart like you Hailstorm this is a true indictment.

OP - Give us evidence showing at what level of radiation ingestion or exposure there is demonstrable link to morbidity or mortality.

Ok, I give up, it's clearly impossible to have an objective discussion on this subforum.

No it's impossible to have a discussion on this sub-forum if it's about a important topic and you post unsubstantiated claims and speculation.

The Fukushima incident had a major impact on a lot of us and many spent a huge amount of time trying to understand the facts and implications. I (and many others here) are frankly sick and fed up with emotional non-objective reactions that provide no useful information.

If on the other hand, you post some useful information about actual risks and not just "Don't eat the food" or "Beware of the gigantic radiation cloud", we would be more than happy to have an objective discussion.

I'd be more concerned if 1) radiation levels weren't going down in Sendai 2) My ex-MP college prof hadn't told his class about an incident involving the Chernobyl radiation, a Geiger counter, and him looking for a new job.

Would I go swimming in the groundwater around Fukushima? No, but as long as I'm not "close-in" I wouldn't be especially worried long-term.

Ok, I give up, it's clearly impossible to have an objective discussion on this subforum.

Yeah, those pesky "facts" and "evidence" always get in the way of having an objective discussion.

My geiger counter registers 0.16 microSieverts outdoors today. In your learned opinion, please tell me how many months I have left before I'll die a horrible death.

Yeah, those pesky "facts" and "evidence" always get in the way of having an objective discussion.

My geiger counter registers 0.16 microSieverts outdoors today. In your learned opinion, please tell me how many months I have left before I'll die a horrible death.

Hail, I figured you would have a Geiger Counter to go along with your asteroid shield!:)

Hail, I figured you would have a Geiger Counter to go along with your asteroid shield!:)

I believe in being prepared (I have a generator as well. ^) I don't believe in being hysterical.

I believe in being prepared (I have a generator as well. ^) I don't believe in being hysterical.

No ....? In Japan? LPG or diesel? (I had you for hysterical....at least when you were walking around Roppongi.;))

No ....? In Japan? LPG or diesel?

人力

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002NGCO30/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00

人力

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002NGCO30/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00

Oh....... thought you had a serious generator. I don't think this is going to have enough juice to power both your Geiger Counter and your asteroid shield.

That must be it. I don't know anything about radiation, because I'm just a nuclear engineer with a PhD in physics that has only studied the safety designs of nuclear fission plants for 6 years in a previous career. Please enlighten me with your genius insight.

I see. This level and depth of knowledge was not readily apparent from your original post. Our mistake. Please accept our humble apologies.

I am based in Japan. And I fail to understand why a member with a 1000 posts would have a more legitimate opinion.

Your original post seems to imply you left after a month, or you won't stay more than a month. Ergo, you're not based in Japan. Which one is it?

By the way, on the internet nobody knows you are a dog. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Internet_dog.jpg)

I think you're (the OP) forgetting something very important...people are very emotionally attached to their homes and homeland -- aside from the nomads. People have stuck it through many disasters, natural and manmade, and their aftermath through the years.

Yes, there are going to be problems for sure -- especially given the incompetence of the Japanese Diet to do anything. However, surely you, who is supposedly a nuclear engineer with a doctorate degree, should be able to work together to produce a way to contain the aftermath of this. It may be difficult, especially considering the idiotic location of the plant, but not trying is worse. There were those that died building the sarcophagus at Cherynobyl, however there seem to be people willing to pay the ultimate price for their country.

I, too, am an engineer, and thus I have hope -- why? Because engineers make the world that doesn't yet exist. Those reactors were designed, and we can design a way to contain them.

By the way, on the internet nobody knows you are a dog. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Internet_dog.jpg)
Most perspicacious. Here's my new favoriite, BTW:
http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/62/6228/OE93100Z/posters/joe-dator-you-look-just-like-your-profile-picture-new-yorker-cartoon.jpg

Not to pile onto the OP, but to respond the question in his post title:

Does nobody worry about Fukushima's aftermath anymore?

Of course we (especially those of us who live in Japan on a long-term basis) do -- but it's a long-term problem that doesn't require constant thought or discussion. The same could be said now about terrorism or the economy, in the 1960-80s about the Cold War, etc.

it's a long-term problem that doesn't require constant thought or discussion. The same could be said now about terrorism or the economy, in the 1960-80s about the Cold War, etc.

Indeed, the rational response (and one would have thought that a PhD engineer type would have been rational...) is to assess the situation, mitigate your personal risk with as little impact to your life plans as feasibly possible, then let it go until the situation significantly changes. And it's been several months now since the situation has significantly changed.

Slightly off topic, but does anybody know if there's been even one animal within the forbidden zone that has died as a result of radiation poisoning (not starvation)?

Indeed, the rational response (and one would have thought that a PhD engineer type would have been rational...) is to assess the situation, mitigate your personal risk with as little impact to your life plans as feasibly possible, then let it go until the situation significantly changes. And it's been several months now since the situation has significantly changed.

Slightly off topic, but does anybody know if there's been even one animal within the forbidden zone that has died as a result of radiation poisoning (not starvation)?

They are doing a bunch of studies. Early ornithological studies suggest a decrease in abundance in certain bird species. Herbivores are impacted (i.e. mortality) because of radioactive deposition on plant life.

For humans, you would really have needed to have been exposed right at the plant for a long time, or have eaten a lot of prohibited food. The main health effect on humans has been stress related.... I think I read 1300 deaths mostly caused by the evacuation, living in gyms, etc.

I think I read 1300 deaths mostly caused by the evacuation, living in gyms, etc.
There are a whole bunch of studies that have been done in Europe and North America about the consequences of forcing involuntary transfers onto the residents of nursing and care homes, particularly for those who are elderly. The results can range from observing higher incidences of falls to increased mortality rates of over 30% in some British studies.
With so many involuntary transfers from residences and loving family homes invoking such a huge array of complications and tragedies I can't see how meaningful figures could have been extracted from the most infirm and vulnerable segment of the population most affected by the effects of Fukushima.

There are a whole bunch of studies that have been done in Europe and North America about the consequences of forcing involuntary transfers onto the residents of nursing and care homes, particularly for those who are elderly. The results can range from observing higher incidences of falls to increased mortality rates of over 30% in some British studies.
With so many involuntary transfers from residences and loving family homes invoking such a huge array of complications and tragedies I can't see how meaningful figures could have been extracted from the most infirm and vulnerable segment of the population most affected by the effects of Fukushima.


I would question the figures too, but it does make you wonder whether anybody actually considered the consequences of forcing people to evacuate.

With so many involuntary transfers from residences and loving family homes invoking such a huge array of complications and tragedies I can't see how meaningful figures could have been extracted from the most infirm and vulnerable segment of the population most affected by the effects of Fukushima.

Yes, having dealt with three frail elderly relatives in the past ten years, I have seen for myself how a change of location, even a brief hospitalization, can lead to disorientation in the best case scenario and physical deterioration and death in the worst case scenario.

I'm not worried about the aftermath, other than the consequences of having every nuclear power plant in Japan offline, which they now are - resulting in a loss of 30% of electricity generation. I work for a company based in Tokyo, and I will be going there in late June. I can only imagine how warm it is going to be inside the buildings. I need to take a race car driver's cool suit with me.

I'm not worried about the aftermath, other than the consequences of having every nuclear power plant in Japan offline, which they now are - resulting in a loss of 30% of electricity generation. I work for a company based in Tokyo, and I will be going there in late June. I can only imagine how warm it is going to be inside the buildings. I need to take a race car driver's cool suit with me.

In a typical office in Tokyo in the summer electricity is 1/3 each lighting, cooling and PCs. There is only a problem in the afternoon when electricity consumption peaks. There are three ways to deal with the problem. 1) Turn off the air conditioning. 2) Turn off the office lights and use ambient which is fine since Japan still does not have daylight savings time, or 3) Charge PCs in the morning and run them in the afternoon off battery power (since nearly all office PCs are notebooks). Needless to say most offices turn off the air conditioning since that involves a sense of sacrifice, which of course everyone should undergo to make up for the mistakes of the TEPCO and the bureaucracy.

In a typical office in Tokyo in the summer electricity is 1/3 each lighting, cooling and PCs. There is only a problem in the afternoon when electricity consumption peaks. There are three ways to deal with the problem. 1) Turn off the air conditioning. 2) Turn off the office lights and use ambient which is fine since Japan still does not have daylight savings time, or 3) Charge PCs in the morning and run them in the afternoon off battery power (since nearly all office PCs are notebooks). Needless to say most offices turn off the air conditioning since that involves a sense of sacrifice, which of course everyone should undergo to make up for the mistakes of the TEPCO and the bureaucracy.

OK, interesting theory, but some aspects are not exactly accurate I am afraid.

Generally, lights comprise 40% and PCs and Air-con about 30% each.

Peak time is in the afternoon, yes, but the law here prohibits there being a lack of air exchange in offices. This is designed to ensure a certain level of air quality in terms of the CO2 levels in the office environment. This can be achieved by either air-conditioning or an air exchanger, but both require electricity and one or the other must legally be on at all times. Turning the air-con off is therefore not a legal option and not followed by the vast majority of offices.

What in fact happens is the setting of the temperature to which air is cooled is raised and thereby not requiring the same energy to provide cool air. Hand held fans (uchiwa in Japanese) are big, but of late the biggest change has been the addition of USB powered mini-fans purchased by staff individually. These cool you but not the area and do not require more than allocated elec. (i.e. the number of VA allowed per sq.m.)

Many offices are reducing lighting through the removal of some ambient lighting bulbs and the addition of desktop level lighting.

It will be hot here but more than that a West Coast person notices the humidity and the inability to naturally cool off by sweating. I despise the summer weather here because of the humidity. Offices are tough to handle in the summer because of the heat and then the associated drowsiness. I recommend a large bottle of water next to your desk and a cotton t-shirt under your dress shirt or a simple cotton shirt of a dress shirt is not required. That and a few walks around the office to wake up from time to time.

Most office are not using laptops only, although some certainly are trending in that direction. Desktop machines are still very widely used. It is much more evenly split than even a year ago but by no means is there a distinct majority in favor of laptops.

Mike

OK, interesting theory, but some aspects are not exactly accurate I am afraid....Blah, Blah Blah

Generally, lights comprise 40% and PCs and Air-con about 30% each.

BLah Blah Blah... is there a distinct majority in favor of laptops.


So if it's your office, what are going to do if you're rationale. Obviously just turn down the lights in the afternoon. Don't know why there is even a discussion in Japan about this.

So if it's your office, what are going to do if you're rationale. Obviously just turn down the lights in the afternoon. Don't know why there is even a discussion in Japan about this.

We remove several bulbs in the office area, about 2/3 of them in public areas, turn off all outsude signs and screens, crank up the aircon to 28 (which is a fugly office temp :( ), wear short sleeves unless going to a client meeting, use USB fans, Shut PCs off at night, sweat, sweat, sweat. And celebrate the heck out of the arrival of October.

We remove several bulbs in the office area, about 2/3 of them in public areas, turn off all outsude signs and screens, crank up the aircon to 28 (which is a fugly office temp :( ), wear short sleeves unless going to a client meeting, use USB fans, Shut PCs off at night, sweat, sweat, sweat. And celebrate the heck out of the arrival of October.

Yeah, 28 is rough. My office uses 26, which is bad enough. Plus, we're in a high-rise without windows that open, so there's no other way for air to circulate.

Strangely, I've never heard the building management make any requests to reduce electricity usage in the two years I've been here. Perhaps they have an efficient a/c system due to the size of the building and/or a non-TEPCO electricity contract.

Yeah, 28 is rough. My office uses 26, which is bad enough. Plus, we're in a high-rise without windows that open, so there's no other way for air to circulate.

Strangely, I've never heard the building management make any requests to reduce electricity usage in the two years I've been here. Perhaps they have an efficient a/c system due to the size of the building and/or a non-TEPCO electricity contract.

PM me the building name and I can tell you what they are doing. ;-) It is sort of what I do.

We remove several bulbs in the office area, about 2/3 of them in public areas, turn off all outsude signs and screens, crank up the aircon to 28 (which is a fugly office temp :( ), wear short sleeves unless going to a client meeting, use USB fans, Shut PCs off at night, sweat, sweat, sweat. And celebrate the heck out of the arrival of October.

Why turn down the aircon. Just turn off the lights. Why bother with the PCs at night. There's plenty of capacity and Tepco's going to need the extra dough to rebuild 30% of the power plants. Plus by increasing demand for electricity you'll accelerate the development and switch to alternative energy.

Also Tepco could easily have gone out and bought smaller gas generators to meet the demand. I gave Tepco and the bureaucrats the benefit of the doubt for the first summer ... partly in deference to the tsunami victims, but at this point in time I'm not willing to suffer any discomfort to further facilitate bureaucratic incompetence at Tepco and in the government.

It also p*sses me off that they haven't solved the housing problems for the tsunami victims. They could have just given every one cash to get on with their lives (and I would have been thrilled to pay extra taxes for it). Instead they'll be permanently housed in barrack like buildings supplied by crony construction companies in conditions worse than Japanese Americans endured during internment in WWII.

Did I say I was p*ssed. Despite the tragedy there was an opportunity to turn things around, and instead the spineless self serving politicians (and voters to some extent) are happy to let Japan accelerate into permanent decline. Very sad. Just MHO.

I recommend a large bottle of water next to your desk and a cotton t-shirt under your dress shirt or a simple cotton shirt of a dress shirt is not required.

Throw in one of these (http://www.timeslive.co.za/lifestyle/2012/05/09/japan-ice-bra-aims-to-keep-women-cool---everywhere) and you can have your own private Idaho winter in the Tokyo summer.

Had a friend who used to keep a heavy down jacket in the freezer overnight. Claimed he could make it to the office in the morning with out sweating. I was always skeptical.

Had a friend who used to keep a heavy down jacket in the freezer overnight. Claimed he could make it to the office in the morning with out sweating. I was always skeptical.

Then how did he get that down jacket home again without sweating?

Then how did he get that down jacket home again without sweating?

Stuffed it in his backpack Einstein.

Stuffed it in his backpack Einstein.

Sounds like he'd get pretty hot carrying that around Epstein.

Sounds like he'd get pretty hot carrying that around Epstein.
As the old proverb says: "You don't get hot from carrying a down jacket, you get hot from carrying an elephant."

As the old proverb says: "You don't get hot from carrying a down jacket, you get hot from carrying an elephant."

Quite right.

As the old proverb says: "You don't get hot from carrying a down jacket, you get hot from carrying an elephant."

Is that zo?

Is that zo?

Good one!!