Disability Travel - wheelchair in the closet

Monday, DEN-BWI:

A320. I pre-board, I see the nice big closet with only a couple of flight attendant bags in it, plenty of room. I say, "I'd like you to stow the wheelchair in the closet," and I start taking my rigid frame chair apart for them.

The purser and the first officer are standing there. The purser gets huge eyes, and she says in a shocked tone, "In the closet?" as if I had asked her to sacrifice her first born child.

"Yes, please."

She starts going on and on about how most airplanes don't have closets any more (huh?) as she takes the wheels and starts angrily stuffing them in. I manage not to point out that it doesn't really matter what most airplanes have; this airplane does have one. I'm starting to think my chair might have been safer in the hold (!).

She tries to cram the frame in sort of weirdly sidewise; I start to say that she can just turn it the other way and it will fit right over the bags when she throws the frame back out on the floor, then picks up a flight attendant bag (hopefully her own) and flings it violently into the galley with a crash. The first officer, who has been looking kind of shocked this whole time, says "That's the one with the breakables".

The chair survived. I'm feeling very proud of myself for staying calm and not arguing with her.

BWI-DEN today, the FA was overjoyed to put it in the closet, and was surprised when I thanked her.

.....

Monday, DEN-BWI:

A320. I pre-board, I see the nice big closet with only a couple of flight attendant bags in it, plenty of room. I say, "I'd like you to stow the wheelchair in the closet," and I start taking my rigid frame chair apart for them.



The word "please" often goes a long way to getting a more pleasant response.

Let me suggest that you learn how to phrase things politely. You are much more likely to get a positive response.

Thank you for your suggestion. I was quite calm (at least externally) and polite throughout, that's kind of the point of the story.

I read the part about asking to put it in the closet.

I missed the part about whether they did put it there.

I read the part about asking to put it in the closet.

I missed the part about whether they did put it there.

Yes, she did, but she wasn't happy about it. Everything that was already in the closet still fit in along with the wheelchair, with room to spare.

I don't get why she got so upset? What's the big deal about stowing the chair in the closet?

I don't get why she got so upset? What's the big deal about stowing the chair in the closet?

@:-) He didn't say please

@:-) He didn't say please

I'm not sure if you're being serious or not. :confused:

If you were, then my response would be, "so what?" If this F/A is going nuts because someone didn't say "please" then it's time to find a new line of work.

I don't get why she got so upset? What's the big deal about stowing the chair in the closet?

Have you ever traveled with a chair? It's an instant litmus test for insanity. Some FAs are great, other are like the one described. I often bend myself over backwards with politeness in a blatant quest for an upgrade, but then I am regaled with tales of how I'm "not like most people in wheelchairs" and how I'm "so easy to deal with". It's ridiculous.

Have you ever traveled with a chair? It's an instant litmus test for insanity. Some FAs are great, other are like the one described. I often bend myself over backwards with politeness in a blatant quest for an upgrade, but then I am regaled with tales of how I'm "not like most people in wheelchairs" and how I'm "so easy to deal with". It's ridiculous.

Yes, I travel with a wheelchair. I've been using one for 13 years. I'm still wondering what sets people like that FA off? Why is it so hard to stow a chair in the closet. It's such an easy thing for them to do. What is the problem.

.... I'm still wondering what sets people like that FA off? Why is it so hard to stow a chair in the closet. It's such an easy thing for them to do. What is the problem.

Probably the FA was having a bad hair day, nobody can be 100% nice 100% of the time; just our nature as annoying humans. :)

That said, I am not condoning the behaviour exhibited by the FA, and would certainly send a wee complaint note to the airline if it is easy enough to do in case the FA was a bad apple (if there were lots of previous complains) rather than having an "off" day.

Probably the FA was having a bad hair day, nobody can be 100% nice 100% of the time; just our nature as annoying humans. :)

That said, I am not condoning the behaviour exhibited by the FA, and would certainly send a wee complaint note to the airline if it is easy enough to do in case the FA was a bad apple (if there were lots of previous complains) rather than having an "off" day.

I think it's more than a bad hair day. I think most FA's hate the rule about the closet. That's just my feeling from years of travel and from hearing other people's experiences. I'm just wondering why? Is my feeling off?

I think it's more than a bad hair day. I think most FA's hate the rule about the closet. That's just my feeling from years of travel and from hearing other people's experiences. I'm just wondering why? Is my feeling off?

I have the same feeling.

It's funny, for years I publicized the closet rule, but at some point stopped requesting closet space for my own chair, mostly because it was an emotional battle every time.

I'd almost forgotten about it until I recently had lunch with a friend who is a dancer in an integrated dance company. They're touring pretty much weekly, and she was shocked that I wasn't asking to have my chair stowed in the closet. So I started up again. And lo and behold, it's still an emotional battle. We shouldn't have to grovel to get what's legally required.

I'd almost forgotten about it until I recently had lunch with a friend who is a dancer in an integrated dance company. They're touring pretty much weekly, and she was shocked that I wasn't asking to have my chair stowed in the closet. So I started up again. And lo and behold, it's still an emotional battle. We shouldn't have to grovel to get what's legally required.

Yes, I am shocked at the regular pattern of it, and I hope you were able to raise it with the airline(s) via the complaints channels if it is not too much of a chore to do.

Yes, I am shocked at the regular pattern of it, and I hope you were able to raise it with the airline(s) via the complaints channels if it is not too much of a chore to do.

Thanks, Stez. It was United, and I filled out the post-flight survey with the info, but didn't make a separate complaint. Does complaining actually work?

Thanks, Stez. It was United, and I filled out the post-flight survey with the info, but didn't make a separate complaint. Does complaining actually work?

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. However, if no one complains, the problems and shoddy FA attitudes will, without a doubt, continue.

I have an axe to grind and I send in a complaint everytime I fly on a plane that has no subtitled movies. Responses range from nothing, $50 vouchers to actually explaining the situation and what they are going to do to improve on it.

It is the latter that I hope is what you get, I fear you may get the former. However, not sending in a complaint at all, you will get status quo.

I think it is worth a complaint in its own right, the cynic in me thinks surveys are probably collected and processed by disinterested third party companies who just want to easily assemble numbers rather than unique words.

If you do submit a complaint, I would love to know what the response is, if any, as probably will others.

The other option is to find a company representative (if any) on the United board of FT, and PM him/her to see if the rep can give you a direct channel?

I travel with a mobility scooter (www.travelscoot.com) Recently I flew to Copenhagen from the US and they were very nice to me, even putting my mobility scooter up in business class. Granted it only weighs 34 pounds/16 kgs) but it was the first time. I fly 180,000 miles/year so have seen many airlines. In the beginning many were weird; in Japan they took my scooter completely apart down to the last screw and had a group meeting. They allowed me to use it but insisted I have someone with me in the airport. So I took them running alongside me at 6 mph for an hour and the next time they quit. I prefer the independence of using it over a wheelchair; I don't need to be pushed. Dean Hughson, Omaha Nebraska USA

Yes, I am shocked at the regular pattern of it, and I hope you were able to raise it with the airline(s) via the complaints channels if it is not too much of a chore to do.

My perplexion is about something much less important than a wheelchair but a similar situation - I sit in row 1/bulkhead generally so nobody is in my lap while I'm working on my computer. Everyone knows that all your stuff needs to be stowed in the overhead bins, nothing on the floor for taxi/takeoff, so when I open the overhead bin, it's full of blankets and a bag belonging to a FA. This is patently ridiculous ... the crew's been on the plane for 10 minutes, they can stow their bags anywhere ... why put your bag in the one place that is truly needed by the passengers in the first row? But it really underscores the scorn that some FAs have for their passengers. Some of them have terminal bad hair days and you just never know what you'll find as you board, just have to hope for the best.

My perplexion is about something much less important than a wheelchair but a similar situation - I sit in row 1/bulkhead generally so nobody is in my lap while I'm working on my computer. Everyone knows that all your stuff needs to be stowed in the overhead bins, nothing on the floor for taxi/takeoff, so when I open the overhead bin, it's full of blankets and a bag belonging to a FA. This is patently ridiculous ... the crew's been on the plane for 10 minutes, they can stow their bags anywhere ... why put your bag in the one place that is truly needed by the passengers in the first row? But it really underscores the scorn that some FAs have for their passengers. Some of them have terminal bad hair days and you just never know what you'll find as you board, just have to hope for the best.

I wil try to address this as best I can, with regards to our disabled customers. When the FAs are working in the front of the cabin, they need access to their emergency manual, as well as their equipment. They may have had to move it to the overhead bins, to accomodate a wheelchair in the front closet. We don't have any underseat stowage, as our seats are up against a wall, so as to better direct you to safe passage in an emergency.

It is only through you, Katja, that I discovered the onboard closet. Since finding out about it, my experience has been along the lines of:

"Is this your own wheelchair?" "Yes, it is." "We'll prepare a tag for it and gate check it for you." "Actually, I would prefer to stow it in the in-board closet, if it's at all possible." Much conferring among GAs, then further conferring once I reach the plane (since my chair is small enough that it fits onboard the aircraft without a problem). "Where is the tag for this chair?" (Dramatic whisper) "She wants to stow it in the closet." "In the closet?!!" As I quietly smile and arrange myself in the first row of J or F, and the wheelchair is collapsed and taken to "the closet," (not knowing, poor little chair, that it's the 21st century, and she can be out, out, OUT of that cursed closet, but I digress . . . ). The whole experience can be disconcerting at best, and at worst, something along the lines of what you have described. Why some FAs react as poorly as the one on your flight did is entirely beyond me. I sometimes suspect that having a wheelchair passenger on board makes a small percentage of FAs nervous.

I'd advise getting the tag, and then asking the flight attendant about the closet. The gate agents have no control over the closet.

And that way if for some legitimate reason (the other 3 manual wheelchair preboards, perhaps?) your chair cannot go in the closet, it's already tagged.

Several questions:
1. Most airlines require you to fill out a form that you have a wheelchair and they are only required to store one onboard.
2. They are not supposed to limit other passengers carry on for the wheelchair
- the closet is not where they are supposed to store it. It is for the crew's bags (do they don't take up overheads and for the coats of first class passengers. As noted above, they are required to have their manuals readily accessible)
3. All major planes (not express) carry a specific wheelchair on board if you need one.
4. You should really gate check yours.
5. The FA was "being nice" to allow you to stow it in the closet. She should have denied you - ESP if you did not fill out the proper forms.
6. The belief you are "entitled" is where you were wrong!

§ 382.67 What is the requirement for priority space in the cabin to store passengers' wheelchairs? (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=6ed9b568b21ee0e0f29e198cc222ed6b&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:4.0.1.4.64&idno=14#14:4.0.1.4.64.5.24.4)

(a) As a carrier, you must ensure that there is a priority space in the cabin of sufficient size to stow at least one typical adult-sized folding, collapsible, or break-down manual passenger wheelchair, the dimensions of which are within a space of 13 inches by 36 inches by 42 inches without having to remove the wheels or otherwise disassemble it. This requirement applies to any aircraft with 100 or more passenger seats; and

(b) This space must be other than the overhead compartments and under-seat spaces routinely used for passengers' carry-on items.

(c) As a foreign carrier, you must meet the requirement of paragraph (a) of this section for new aircraft ordered after May 13, 2009 or delivered after May 13, 2010. As a U.S. carrier, this requirement applies to you with respect to new aircraft you operate that were ordered after April 5, 1990, or which were delivered after April 5, 1992.
§ 382.123 What are the requirements concerning priority cabin stowage for wheelchairs and other assistive devices? (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=6ed9b568b21ee0e0f29e198cc222ed6b&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:4.0.1.4.64&idno=14#14:4.0.1.4.64.9.24.2)

(a) The following rules apply to the stowage of passengers' wheelchairs or other assistive devices in the priority stowage area provided for in §382.67 of this part:

(1) You must ensure that a passenger with a disability who uses a wheelchair and takes advantage of the opportunity to preboard the aircraft can stow his or her wheelchair in this area, with priority over other items brought onto the aircraft by other passengers or crew enplaning at the same airport, consistent with FAA, PHMSA, TSA, or applicable foreign government requirements concerning security, safety, and hazardous materials with respect to the stowage of carry-on items. You must move items that you or your personnel have placed in the priority stowage area ( e.g., crew luggage, an on-board wheelchair) to make room for the passenger's wheelchair, even if these items were stowed in the priority stowage area before the passenger seeking to stow a wheelchair boarded the aircraft ( e.g., the items were placed there on a previous leg of the flight).

(2) You must also ensure that a passenger with a disability who takes advantage of the opportunity to preboard the aircraft can stow other assistive devices in this area, with priority over other items (except wheelchairs) brought onto the aircraft by other passengers enplaning at the same airport consistent with FAA, PHMSA, TSA, or applicable foreign government requirements concerning security, safety, and hazardous materials with respect to the stowage of carry-on items.

(3) You must ensure that a passenger with a disability who does not take advantage of the opportunity to preboard is able to use the area to stow his or her wheelchair or other assistive device on a first-come, first-served basis along with all other passengers seeking to stow carry-on items in the area.

(b) If a wheelchair exceeds the space provided for in §382.67 of this part while fully assembled but will fit if wheels or other components can be removed without the use of tools, you must remove the applicable components and stow the wheelchair in the designated space. In this case, you must stow the removed components in areas provided for stowage of carry-on luggage.

(c) You must not use the seat-strapping method of carrying a wheelchair in any aircraft you order after May 13, 2009 or which are delivered after May 13, 2011. Any such aircraft must have the designated priority stowage space required by section 382.67, and you must permit passengers to use the space as provided in this section 382.123.

Several questions:
1. Most airlines require you to fill out a form that you have a wheelchair and they are only required to store one onboard.
2. They are not supposed to limit other passengers carry on for the wheelchair
- the closet is not where they are supposed to store it. It is for the crew's bags (do they don't take up overheads and for the coats of first class passengers. As noted above, they are required to have their manuals readily accessible)
3. All major planes (not express) carry a specific wheelchair on board if you need one.
4. You should really gate check yours.
5. The FA was "being nice" to allow you to stow it in the closet. She should have denied you - ESP if you did not fill out the proper forms.
6. The belief you are "entitled" is where you were wrong!

Thank you, CD_YOW, you beat me to it.

BeatCal, I really hope you are not an FA!

OMG, Katja, you did not have the proper forms! Leave the wheelchair at the airport and prepare to crawl home! :D. What were you thinking, not filling out the proper forms to prove your wheelchair belonged somewhere on the plane and not back at the airport? Bad girl!

OMG, Katja, you did not have the proper forms! Leave the wheelchair at the airport and prepare to crawl home! :D. What were you thinking, not filling out the proper forms to prove your wheelchair belonged somewhere on the plane and not back at the airport? Bad girl!

LOL!

AND I didn't say "please" enough. I might as well just give up and stay home, you know, like people like me are supposed to.

P.S. The only airline that has ever made me fill out a form is Southwest. The agent who was doing it looks me up and down, asks "What kind of chair is it?"

"Manual," I say.

"No, what kind?"

"Well, it's a Top End Terminator Titanium Everyday."

She writes down "Manual".

I usually get the quick once-over, "That your chair?" "Yes," "Is it collapsible?" "Yes, it is.". "You gonna need help to the gate?" "I sure would appreciate it, ma'am.". Arrive at gate, repeat.

You know what we need? Vaseline on the teeth and gums. Like beauty pageant contestants. Makes it easier to paste that smile on our faces. The smile it seems we need at all times while traveling. And don't forget to say please and thank you when someone throws around an expensive piece of equipment we need to move. Because everyone else would smile and say please and thank you if an irate fa were breaking their legs, of course. :p

Next time the ask you what type of wheelchair you have, you should say, "It's a Terminator. I'll be back." in your best Ahnuld, of course. :D

The only airline that has ever made me fill out a form is Southwest.

I really don't mind when Southwest fills out the tag. It's a Quickie Q7, red frame with black upholstery, no damage, thanks for asking. I occasionally also have assistive device tags with information about my chair and travel (Name, PNR) when I fly United, but it's not a consistent policy (depends on the station). I honestly think this tag is an advantage if the chair gets lost or damaged.

I've been asked a few times to fill out the objectionable kind of form, but it's always on Asian airlines. On a recent flight in CX Business SFO-HKG, they had a two page form, can I walk on the plane, can I feed myself, do I need help with my medications, do I need oxygen or a stretcher, what do I do if I need to evacuate the plane? Good stuff, but not nearly as exciting as Asiana, whose phone agent insisted that I needed a letter from my physician stating that I'm cleared to fly. Lol!

Every airline has a policy and are required to only load one wheel chair on board.

You must be the person who forced me to check mine as I had "booked" it only to find that some "entitled jerk" who beat me to the plane and did not advance book the spot took it!

Follow the rules and you will get no hazzels by the airline staff. Think you are entitled (eg why do those of us with disabilities feel we should not have to pay for parking at airports, meters, etc) and you should be refused!

The rules (posted above) are that up to one manual chair must be stowed in the closet, provided the chair fits and the passenger pre-boards. There's no "booking", no "reserving". A manual wheelchair takes precedence over all other luggage, including flight attendant and first class passenger bags.

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience, and I'm sorry that disabled people are forced to compete with each other for scarce rationed resources like closet space, accessible bathroom stalls, accessible parking, and properly equipped rental cars. The sooner society recognizes that disability is not an exceptional outlier condition but part of the human spectrum, the sooner we won't have to trample each other in our race to get the closet space.

I don't believe that I act like an "entitled jerk". I do want my wheelchair, my means of mobility, to be treated respectfully and not thrown around like it's not important. I also don't want to be treated like I'm asking for special treatment when I merely want to travel like everyone else.

Every airline has a policy and are required to only load one wheel chair on board.

You must be the person who forced me to check mine as I had "booked" it only to find that some "entitled jerk" who beat me to the plane and did not advance book the spot took it!

Follow the rules and you will get no hazzels by the airline staff. Think you are entitled (eg why do those of us with disabilities feel we should not have to pay for parking at airports, meters, etc) and you should be refused!

Come back to the real world please! In the real world, following all the rules, even saying "please", does not prevent you from getting hassled (the proper spelling of hazzels, I think). By the way, don't you think the FA should be hassled if he or she doesn't follow the rules?

By the way, the policy to stow one wheelchair on board isn't talking about the aisle chair, which is covered by a different rule. I'm not sure if you get that or not?

"Entitled"? I don't see how this word applies to this situation at all. There's a law about this. The FA does not have the right to break the law any more than you do.

+1 Katja. +1 DF.

No one is taking anything from anyone by pre-boarding and requesting the use of the wheelchair closet for (gasp!) their wheelchair. Katja makes an excellent point: the airlines would be well-advised to realize that pax with disabilities in this day and age are not outliers, we do not stay home, we do not live in nursing homes, making hook rugs, watching reality tv, desperate for someone to visit. We have jobs, we have businesses, we have husbands, wives, children, homes, the occasional strange hobby . . . And we travel. Some of us travel a lot. ;)

Delta: We limit the number of personal wheelchairs to one personal wheelchair per flight...Wheelchairs stowed onboard have priority over other carry-on items except those of through passengers.

US Air; Manual wheelchairs, canes, crutches and walkers
On aircraft with more than 100 seats, US Airways has room for one typical adult-sided folding, collapsible or break-down manual wheelchair, cane, crutches or walker in the cabin’s priority stowage space, so long as it complies with applicable safety, security and hazardous materials rules. The priority stowage space will either be a closet or the back row of seats.

US Airways offers in-cabin wheelchair stowage on a first-come, first-served basis.

Please call 800-428-4322/TTY 800-245-2966 24 hours before your flight to document your request for in-cabin wheelchair stowage.

American: Wheelchairs and other reduced mobility assistance requests can be made while you are booking your flight on AA.com or by calling Reservations.

If advance notification is not given, the airport authorities will make reasonable efforts to assist you, however an advance notification will help ensure you receive the assistance you require.

I normally fly US Air and as noted above the single chair space is supposed to go to the one that reserves it first. Just showing up as the OP did is incorrect and they don't have to help you if they don't have room.

Pax with disabilities should be treated with no more special attention than a regular passenger as long as they are given the same abilities to fly. Delta specifically notes that wheel chairs do not have priority over other passengers.

Again, I'm sorry that you are so upset about your experience.

Delta, American and USAir can ask you to request cabin stowage ahead of time, but per the Air Carrier Access Act, they cannot require such advance notice in order to provide legally required accommodation. The only thing they can require is that the passenger requesting cabin stowage pre-board.

In my case, there was no other passenger on my flight with his/her own wheelchair, so I wasn't depriving any other wheelchair user of cabin stowage, requested in advance or not.

I also wasn't flying Delta, American or USAir, but that's moot.

I normally fly US Air and as noted above the single chair space is supposed to go to the one that reserves it first. Just showing up as the OP did is incorrect and they don't have to help you if they don't have room.


Notice it says, "Please call...", not "you must call". That's because the law says they can't say, "you must call x hours prior..." (except in certain situations, which does not include the situation being discussed in this thread).

You are wrong!
Reread the law.
It says they must stow ONE chair in a space other than the overhead (does not state "closet" - I have had mine most often stowed behind seats).

It does NOT state how they decide first come, first serve.

if the OP had "pre-informed" , had the space not been previously reserved, the FA would have known she had a wheelchair and have made the space available.

I have never had a problem (nor do people I know) who have followed the rules other than someone who feels "entitled" pushes in front and ignores the fact it has been reserved.

I do not understand why the posters here feel it is ok to ignore the carriers rules? It is no different than going to DMV to get your car sticker!

I travel with a copy of the Air Carrier Access Act as well as a print out from the airlines own website when I fly. I've had about a 90% success rate requesting and having my manual wheelchair placed in the cabin closet by doing that. Generally, the flight attendants don't believe me that it is both the law and their airlines policy until they read both of those copies themselves.

It has been twice that I've needed to request a Complaint Resolution Officer and in both cases, that person did tell the flight attendants to unload the luggage they had placed in the cabin closet to allow my spouse to attempt to place my manual wheelchair into it. The wheelchair has always fit and I have always received apologies from the Complaint Resolution Officers and a request to send through a complaint so that they can better train their cabin crews.

Before I did this, I've had my frame bent, spokes broken (not easy on a manual wheelchair) and even had the frame broken. They've also forgotten my wheelchair in the jetway where it was placed with the gate check tag and then failed to notice it and load it into the hold of the aircraft.

I am always friendly, upbeat and positive. Mostly because that is just my normal personality. :) I have found that being that way helps a bit but what helps more is acknowledging to the cabin crew that it IS a pain for them to have to deal with a manual wheelchair and apologizing for the extra work.

Although now all of this is pretty much a moot point, as my current collapsible manual travel wheelchair comes apart and folds down far enough to fit into the overhead bins. :) The last time we flew, we had to call a Complaint Resolution Officer to require the cabin crew to allow us to place my manual wheelchair into the overhead compartment because they didn't believe us that it would fit. It did, they were amazed and apologetic.

So, when we flew home, my spouse just put it up in the overhead compartment while I was being pre-boarded in the aisle chair. That particular flight crew (very decent, kind group of people) made it a point to tell us to not even bother to ask any cabin crews about placing it in the overhead compartments. That the best thing to do, was just put it up there and tell them after, as it would save us a lot of hassles with no one believing it will fit up there. That's the plan for the next flights we take. :)

Oh, and when the wheelchair is up in the overhead compartment, it fits nicely on top of our carry-on bags and doesn't take up any extra space. :)

You are wrong!
Reread the law.
It says they must stow ONE chair in a space other than the overhead (does not state "closet" - I have had mine most often stowed behind seats)...
Just as a point of information/clarification, the chair could not have been simply stowed behind a seat as that is not an approved stowage location for an item of mass. It is possible that the air carrier may have installed a supplemental means of restraining the seat in that location but in all cases, the means of restraint would have been required to meet the emergency landing conditions associated with the basis of certification for the aircraft type. This is why an enclosed space, such as a closet, is typically specified as the stowage location as it is designed and intended for the restraint of items of mass.

US Air; Manual wheelchairs, canes, crutches and walkers
On aircraft with more than 100 seats, US Airways has room for one typical adult-sided folding, collapsible or break-down manual wheelchair, cane, crutches or walker in the cabin’s priority stowage space, so long as it complies with applicable safety, security and hazardous materials rules. The priority stowage space will either be a closet or the back row of seats.


I've been told by some that the closet's are now built for jackets and the door will not hold anything heavy.

Thanks BeatCal... That is an interesting comment on their website about the back row of seats ... I may have to inquire further about that. ;)

Every approved stowage location on board the aircraft will be marked with a placard indicating the maximum acceptable weight for the location. So, if you are told that again in the future about the closet, you might check or request to know what the placard indicates - just for information purposes, of course.

You are wrong!
Reread the law.
It says they must stow ONE chair in a space other than the overhead (does not state "closet" - I have had mine most often stowed behind seats).

It does NOT state how they decide first come, first serve.

if the OP had "pre-informed" , had the space not been previously reserved, the FA would have known she had a wheelchair and have made the space available.

I have never had a problem (nor do people I know) who have followed the rules other than someone who feels "entitled" pushes in front and ignores the fact it has been reserved.

I do not understand why the posters here feel it is ok to ignore the carriers rules? It is no different than going to DMV to get your car sticker!

I have read the law and reread it numerous times. I do not see where I am wrong. I do not see where the others are wrong. Do you even know what the Air Carrier Access Act is? Are you talking about the law in the US? FYI, the law takes precedence over carrier policies. The law specifically states "first come, first served" on this topic. It also specifically states the rules on priority for there closet. You better go back and read it again, if you ever have read it.

I have read the law and reread it numerous times. I do not see where I am wrong. I do not see where the others are wrong. Do you even know what the Air Carrier Access Act is? Are you talking about the law in the US? FYI, the law takes precedence over carrier policies. The law specifically states "first come, first served" on this topic. It also specifically states the rules on priority for there closet. You better go back and read it again, if you ever have read it.

DF
"first come, first served" by US air is first person who reserves is first served. This meets the air carrier act.
The law also does not state "closet". It states space other than overhead.

You would prefer a wheel chair race to the gate?

I would suggest you reread it

DF
"first come, first served" by US air is first person who reserves is first served. This meets the air carrier act.
The law also does not state "closet". It states space other than overhead.

You would prefer a wheel chair race to the gate?

I would suggest you reread it

I have read it multiple times now and just checked again. Here is a quote with some of it bolded:

§ 382.41 Stowage of personal equipment.
(2) In an aircraft in which a closet or other approved stowage area is provided in the cabin for passengers’ carry-on items, of a size that will accommodate a folding, collapsible, or break-down wheelchair, the carrier shall designate priority stowage space, as described below, for at least one folding, collapsible, or break-down wheelchair in that area. A individual with a disability who takes advantage of a carrier offer of the opportunity to pre-board the aircraft may stow his or her wheelchair in this area, with priority over the carry-on items brought onto the aircraft by other passengers enplaning at the same airport. A individual with a disability who does not take advantage of a carrier offer of the opportunity to preboard may use the area to stow his or her wheelchair on a first-come, first-served basis along with all other passengers seeking to stow carry-on items in the area.

This paragraph talks about pre-boarding, not about reserving stowage space in advance. It pretty clearly states that to use this stowage area, whether it is a closet or not, can not be reserved since it specifies only during pre-boarding. I see nothing about allowing the airlines to reserve the space in advance. If you have a quote from the law that says otherwise then please post it. The US Airways paragraph you posted earlier says nothing about reserving the space in advance of pre boarding. I've also bolded the phrase "first come, first served" for you.

there won't be any wheelchair races as it will be whichever person gets pre-boarded first. I have been the last to arrive at a gate, where there were many old folks using chairs and waiting to be pre boarded. I was pre-boarded first, since out of all of us, I was the only one who could not get up and walk to my seat. I did not request to be first. The wheelchair assistance crew, along with the airline gate agents decided who goes first.

From the ACAA 14 CFR Part 382 as amended effective May 13, 2009
§382.67 What is the requirement for priority space in the cabin to store passengers’ wheelchairs?

(a) As a carrier, you must ensure that there is a priority space in the cabin of sufficient size to stow at least one typical adult-sized folding, collapsible, or break-down manual passenger wheelchair, the dimensions of which are within a space of 13 inches by 36 inches by 42 inches without having to remove the wheels or otherwise disassemble it. This requirement applies to any aircraft with 100 or more passenger seats; and

(b) This space must be other than the overhead compartments and under-seat spaces routinely used for passengers’ carry-on items.

(c) As a foreign carrier, you must meet the requirement of paragraph (a) of this section for new aircraft ordered after May 13, 2009 or delivered after May 13, 2010. As a U.S. carrier, this requirement applies to you with respect to new aircraft you operate that were ordered after April 5, 1990, or which were delivered after April 5, 1992.

I have read it multiple times now and just checked again. Here is a quote with some of it bolded:



This paragraph talks about pre-boarding, not about reserving stowage space in advance. It pretty clearly states that to use this stowage area, whether it is a closet or not, can not be reserved since it specifies only during pre-boarding. I see nothing about allowing the airlines to reserve the space in advance. If you have a quote from the law that says otherwise then please post it. The US Airways paragraph you posted earlier says nothing about reserving the space in advance of pre boarding. I've also bolded the phrase "first come, first served" for you.

there won't be any wheelchair races as it will be whichever person gets pre-boarded first. I have been the last to arrive at a gate, where there were many old folks using chairs and waiting to be pre boarded. I was pre-boarded first, since out of all of us, I was the only one who could not get up and walk to my seat. I did not request to be first. The wheelchair assistance crew, along with the airline gate agents decided who goes first.

Yes they have to be preboarded. To have time to stow, etc.

It does not say that first preboarded is the one who gets it. You are being very anal. If I reserve on US Air and it is you (I'll ask) that grabs it, I will have them remove it next time instead of checking mine. (ps Virgin also reserves)

End of discussion as you believe you know it all. I would suggest that you check with US Air and if you don't like it, write to the gov and let them tell you!!

Yes they have to be preboarded. To have time to stow, etc.

It does not say that first preboarded is the one who gets it. You are being very anal. If I reserve on US Air and it is you (I'll ask) that grabs it, I will have them remove it next time instead of checking mine. (ps Virgin also reserves)

End of discussion as you believe you know it all. I would suggest that you check with US Air and if you don't like it, write to the gov and let them tell you!!

Whatever you say. Whether any airline allows you to reserve the space or not, was not my point. If there are any who do, it is news to me. The law does not seem to forbid it, but it also very clearly says during pre-boarding. I'm not even sure how we got to discussing whether any airline reserves the space or not. That is not what prompted me to get involved in this discussion. There were other errors that you posted that you seem to have forgotten since you can't answer them I guess.

DF
Since you admitted one error, I will respond to your second one.

You left out part of the rule:
Carriers must permit one folding wheelchair to be stowed in a cabin closet, or other approved prioriity storage area, if the aircraft has such areas and stowage can be accomplished in accordance with FAA safety regulations. If the passenger using it pre-boards, stowage of the wheelchair takes priority over the carry-on items brought on by other passengers enplaning at the same airport (including passengers in another cabin, such as First Class), but not over items of passengers who boarded at previous stops.

My post was that it does not have to be the closet (and if you pre board, previously stowed luggage (on continuous flight) do not have to be removed.

I will accept your second apology.

Guys, please clarify for me, I have dissasembled plenty of wheelchairs in order to accomodate in a closet. Does this mean that I shouldn't have to remove the wheels or legs to make it fit? I don't want to disregard any ACA rules here, but FAA is my governing authority.

if it fits in approved space without removing them, no you do not

DF
Since you admitted one error, I will respond to your second one.

You left out part of the rule:


My post was that it does not have to be the closet (and if you pre board, previously stowed luggage (on continuous flight) do not have to be removed.

I will accept your second apology.

I never disputed that. I think you're going too far in saying that I admitted an error. You have not yet owned up to yours.

Guys, please clarify for me, I have dissasembled plenty of wheelchairs in order to accomodate in a closet. Does this mean that I shouldn't have to remove the wheels or legs to make it fit? I don't want to disregard any ACA rules here, but FAA is my governing authority.

There are different types of chairs. Folding chairs do not need the wheels removed. There are other kinds that do need the wheels removed. They're usually always a quick release kind of wheel. Those need them removed to fit. I think Katja uses one like that, but I'm not sure. The user usually can remove them themselves, as it is so easy. You don't need tools to "disassemble" them.

There are different types of chairs. Folding chairs do not need the wheels removed. There are other kinds that do need the wheels removed. They're usually always a quick release kind of wheel. Those need them removed to fit. I think Katja uses one like that, but I'm not sure. The user usually can remove them themselves, as it is so easy. You don't need tools to "disassemble" them.

Correct. Folding chairs don't need the wheels removed, but may need the cushion, backrest and/or footrests removed/moved in order to fold. Rigid chairs may need the wheels removed, and the backrest may fold down (ie, rigid chairs may also fold, just differently).

Note that the ACAA doesn't say you mustn't do these things. Thank you for helping fit chairs into "approved stowage" areas!

DF
Since you admitted one error, I will respond to your second one.

You left out part of the rule:


My post was that it does not have to be the closet (and if you pre board, previously stowed luggage (on continuous flight) do not have to be removed.

I will accept your second apology.
I don't see where DeafFlyer made an error or admitted an error. And I can't really see a second one, certainly not one that merits any kind of apology.

In the original first post in this thread the FA makes sure to point out to Katja that not all flights have closets. As not all flights have closets the rules need to address this and mention these alternative stowage areas so that those who work in cabins without closets can also comply with the rules.
One would have to be very determined to not wish to comply with the spirit of these rules to apply a clause meant for a cabin without a closet to a cabin with a closet.

Being wrong or right surely is a moot point as it must be directly related to what X airline has decided is the designated 'priority storage area' for each of the craft in their fleet.

If you happen to be aware that in the aircraft you are using, unusually, the closet ISN'T the designated 'priority storage area defined in 382.67 here: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=6ed9b568b21ee0e0f29e198cc222ed6b&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:4.0.1.4.64&idno=14#14:4.0.1.4.64.5.24.4http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=6ed9b568b21ee0e0f29e198cc222ed6b&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:4.0.1.4.64&idno=14#14:4.0.1.4.64.5.24.4
Then you would be right.
But you don't seem to have ever established if that is indeed the case, just that there are sometimes, but not always, alternative storage areas to the aircrafts defined 'priority storage area'. Which is great, as surely this means more room for more chairs up top.

I can't imagine Katja or any other poster here starting a thread to tell us that an FA wouldn't store their chair in the closet but found an alternative area for it in the cabin.
If Katja had boarded and saw that another chair was already in the closet because the aircraft had already picked up pax at another airport I doubt this particular thread would have been started either.

The sorry thing is that anyone who tries to answer your questions and statements is forced into becoming anal and it is rather unkind to then point this out.

I feel richer for having read those responses and would like to thank the regular contributors here.

Interestingly, Australia has no rule requiring stowage of a wheelchair in the closet (and I've never known an airline here accede to a request for it, except on flights to the US where it is required); similarly I'm not aware of an equivalent EU rule.

I've always thought this is a fantastic rule, and I would love to see it become universal. I've never had a wheelchair damaged in the hold - but plenty of times I've had them almost left at airports (I've looked out the window and seen the chair sitting outside at the gate after not being loaded etc), and seen them take forever to emerge from oversized baggage.

It's a shame that it takes a law to compel airlines to do this - it really isn't that difficult for them, and makes a big difference to a wheelchair user.

I've never heard of bookings being taken for the closet before, but it seems like a sensible idea.

Also, the Australian Court ruled ok only two wheelchair passengers per plane

DF
Since you admitted one error, I will respond to your second one.

You left out part of the rule:


My post was that it does not have to be the closet (and if you pre board, previously stowed luggage (on continuous flight) do not have to be removed.

I will accept your second apology.

Looks like you've given up. I only said that I don't see the law forbidding reserving the space in advance in the closet, and that I know of no airline who does reserve the space in advance. A further review of the law forbids them requiring advance reservation of that space, since it is not part of the list of items that they are permitted to require advance notice for.

There's no first or second apology coming. Whatever do you think I would apologize about? You posted erroneous info and I called you on it. As for the second part above, I never argued that point. What would I apologize for?

Deaf

It would make me happ to educate you.

Here is the policy from US Air
Please note the 24 hour request to be first come, first served. There is no federal law prohibiting this. The law only states first come - not when that first come! It also states closet OR back role. In my experiance, it is usually the back row of first class!

Thus, again it is you who is erroneous (sorry). In regards to the OP, if they used US Air, they were in error!

http://www.usairways.com/en-US/traveltools/specialneeds/mobility.html.


Manual wheelchairs, canes, crutches and walkers
On aircraft with more than 100 seats, US Airways has room for one typical adult-sided folding, collapsible or break-down manual wheelchair, cane, crutches or walker in the cabin’s priority stowage space, so long as it complies with applicable safety, security and hazardous materials rules.

The priority stowage space will either be a closet or the back row of seats.

US Airways offers in-cabin wheelchair stowage on a first-come, first-served basis.

Please call 800-428-4322/TTY 800-245-2966 24 hours before your flight to document your request for in-cabin wheelchair stowage.

Wheelchairs stowed in the cabin do not count as a carry-on.

Walkers are stowed in the overhead storage compartment, and canes are usually stowed by the passenger at their seat.

If space is not available in the cabin for mobility aids and other assistive devices, or if the items do not meet safety, security and hazardous materials rules, then US Airways can transport the items in the cargo compartment. US Airways will tag your mobility aid or assistive device for special handling, place it in the cargo compartment as you board the aircraft and return the mobility aid or assistive device to you at the destination gate upon arrival or at a connecting airport. US Airways does not charge a checked baggage fee for this type of item.

Ok, kids, we're done here.

BeatCal, you're clearly having trouble differentiating between legal requirements and an airline's policies.

Let's move on to the next topic.