Air France Frequence Plus - Poor customer service

I know that most posters on this forum are still recovering from their big party.
I don't travel much intra Europe nowadays, but my (old) son, FB Gold, is very upset with AF. He spent the long May 1st week-end in beautiful Amsterdam.When he got to the airport for his flight back on May 1, AF8239 16:25, he learnt that it was canceled. Very long line with unhappy pax. After long wait, the only option offered to a Gold was late morning next day, but that was unacceptable as he had important meetings the next morning. Then the answer was: go to the train station, maybe they have space on Thalys. He ended up catching the last train for a €208 ticket and arrived five hours late.
Maybe that all following flights were full and no option for other connections, but he wondered what was the use of his elite+ status and the staff at AMS could not care less. IRROPS do happen, but why not offer some reasonable alternatives to their best customers?

.When he got to the airport for his flight back on May 1, AF8239 16:25, he learnt that it was canceled. Very long line with unhappy pax. After long wait, the only option offered to a Gold was late morning next day, (...) the staff at AMS could not care less. IRROPS do happen, but why not offer some reasonable alternatives to their best customers?

As AF8239 is actually a KL flight and the staff at AMS are KL rather than AF, this mismanagement of irrops looks more like a KL issue than an AF one. It doesn't make it any more acceptable, though.

Did your son call the AF Le Club Elite line?
They generally solve issues very efficiently.

PS: If the next flights are nearly full, priority is given to passengers with connecting flights, which may explain why your son did not get a flight before next morning.

You are right and this was labor day, so not the best time to get help.
But he was surprised that showing up at 14:30 at the airport, they would not offer him any same-day routing and only a flight getting into Paris after noon the next day. I guess that you can get the stress of getting back to the city in the uncertain hope of getting a train ride.
The issue was not one of snow storm, bad weather strike or any major event, just one plane (or crew) going AWOL.

Main issue to me is why they didn't tell him before. Do you know if he had provided his phone number or email and if an attempt (or several) was made by ROC to call him? I do understand the frustration of not being offered an earlier rerouting but as this was the return part of a bank holiday weekend as well as the end of the school holiday for one of the three French school 'areas' that includes Paris and the middle of it for another, I can imagine most or all flights from AMS to CDG being full. I would have thought however, that the least they could have done was to warn him as soon as they knew the flight was cancelled and help him discuss an acceptable alternative. I would consider failure to do this a real issue regardless of available alternatives.

The (few) times my flights have been cancelled, I had an SMS and a call from AF (but yes you need to have given your mobile phone number at booking)

I guess that you can get the stress of getting back to the city in the uncertain hope of getting a train ride.


Doesn´t Thalys make a stop at AMS too?

Doesn´t Thalys make a stop at AMS too?

Routing is actually Amsterdam Centraal - Schiphol - Rotterdam - Antwerp - Brussels - Paris Nord.

Routing is actually Amsterdam Centraal - Schiphol - Rotterdam - Antwerp - Brussels - Paris Nord.

Very sorry, my mistake. When he said "rushing to the station" I assumed central Amsterdam as I never used the train Thalys. But definitely no phone call/sms before he reached the airport. Again, this was a special day and I can understand that they had few agents available.
Still, it was the only flight canceled, so would have expected to be better taken care of rather than fighting with another hundred pax to find a solution. But he is used to Asian customer service.

I guess that you can get the stress of getting back to the city in the uncertain hope of getting a train ride.

Oh dear, I hope he didn't go back to Amsterdam Centraal when he could have just gone to the NS counters at Schiphol and taken the Thalys from there, too!

But in the knowledge that there are far more trains to Paris running from Brussels, I would have hopped on the next international train (1 per hour, walk-up one-way fare of €38) and presumably picked up a far cheaper Thalys ticket from there.

I presume OP's son is eligible for DNB. Do you also get 1/2 of your airfare refunded?

Gajan

Routing is actually Amsterdam Centraal - Schiphol - Rotterdam - Antwerp - Brussels - Paris Nord.
Is there an easy way to transfer from this Thalys service to CDG?

I noticed that AMS-CDG-XXX flights are sometimes hundreds more expensive than CDG-XXX and booking Thalys to Paris separately. That only works if the transfer to CDG is somewhat easy, though..

Routing is actually Amsterdam Centraal - Schiphol - Rotterdam - Antwerp - Brussels - Paris Nord.
Is there an easy way to transfer from this Thalys service to CDG?

I noticed that AMS-CDG-XXX flights are sometimes hundreds more expensive than CDG-XXX and booking Thalys to Paris separately. That only works if the transfer to CDG is somewhat easy, though..

I also wonder about the thalys-CDG connection. However, I have quite a different experience with the prices. AMS-CDG-XXX flights are only more expensive than CDG-XXX flights intra Europe, but for TATLs essentialy the same price

Probably right indeed. Though I fly mostly intra-europe so for me there might be something to gain there. For example I am looking at AMS-ATH in september (12-18).

Through klm.com the lowest price offered is 302 euro. Through klm.fr, departing from Paris, it is 159 euro. Even with the Thalys fees (I believe they are promoting 35 euro fares) that is still about 100 euro difference :)

Would be interesting to ask OP what OP thinks AF should have done. Presumably the next available seat was the next day and OP's son got that seat. Elite or not, there is not always capacity.

Is there an easy way to transfer from this Thalys service to CDG?

Thalys serves Paris-Nord. From there, you can take the RER (Line B) to CDG, which is relatively straightforward.

Through klm.com the lowest price offered is 302 euro. Through klm.fr, departing from Paris, it is 159 euro. Even with the Thalys fees (I believe they are promoting 35 euro fares) that is still about 100 euro difference :)

Be warned that the €35 Thalys tickets are not exactly plentiful, and can't be relied upon to be available when you need them...

Would be interesting to ask OP what OP thinks AF should have done. Presumably the next available seat was the next day and OP's son got that seat. Elite or not, there is not always capacity.

In any IRROP situation all remaining seats on any remaining flight should be reallocated such that Elites are catered first in their original booking, then IRROP elites and then the silvers, ivories and then the poor souls who don't even have FB.

Seriously, the OP is usually an objective poster and I think that his son may have expressed some desire that the counter staff could have found him some alternative flight out of AMS and then back into PAR be it something like AMS-LCY-ORY. Although in those situations where there is a long line at the counter it's much better to use the call centre.

Is there an easy way to transfer from this Thalys service to CDG?

I noticed that AMS-CDG-XXX flights are sometimes hundreds more expensive than CDG-XXX and booking Thalys to Paris separately. That only works if the transfer to CDG is somewhat easy, though..

Probably right indeed. Though I fly mostly intra-europe so for me there might be something to gain there. For example I am looking at AMS-ATH in september (12-18).

Through klm.com the lowest price offered is 302 euro. Through klm.fr, departing from Paris, it is 159 euro. Even with the Thalys fees (I believe they are promoting 35 euro fares) that is still about 100 euro difference :)

Thalys serves Paris-Nord. From there, you can take the RER (Line B) to CDG, which is relatively straightforward.

Be warned that the €35 Thalys tickets are not exactly plentiful, and can't be relied upon to be available when you need them...

This discussion may be better suited to the European Rail Travel forum...

There are two ways of getting from AMS to CDG by train:
1) Take the Thalys from AMS to Paris Gare du Nord, and then the RER B out to CDG. According to bahn.de (http://bahn.de) the best journey time for this is 3h58 (although this allows 15 mins for getting from the mainline platforms at Gare du Nord to the RER platforms, and it could probably be done quicker than this, which may enable a slightly earlier RER).

OR:

2) Take the Thalys from AMS to Brussels Midi (or Lille), and then a TGV onwards directly to Paris CDG. The best journey time for this is 3h22, but sadly there aren't such connections every hour. (Alternatively, you could take the regular IC train as far as Brussels, and then the TGV to Paris CDG).

Personally, I would prefer the Thalys+TGV option, over 30 mins on the RER B...

Both Schiphol and CDG TGV stations are very convenient for their respective airports, and a connection at Brussels Midi is pretty straightforward.

Thalys tickets should be available at www.b-europe.com and www.thalys.com, and TGV tickets should be available at www.voyages-sncf.com . I haven't been able to check, but hopefully each website would also be able to sell you a through ticket for Thalys+TGV.

Note also that as the train would be ticketed entirely separately to your flight, you would have to leave plenty of time between the two - as neither the airline nor the rail company is likely to take responsibility if the other is delayed.

In any IRROP situation all remaining seats on any remaining flight should be reallocated such that Elites are catered first in their original booking, then IRROP elites and then the silvers, ivories and then the poor souls who don't even have FB.


This is more or less what is happening already. As far as I know, the pecking order is (1) irrops club 2000 in J/F (2) plat in J/F, (3) irrops club 2000, plat and irrops in J/F (not sure what is the internal order between those two, (4) irrops gold, (5) irrops elite + skyteam, (6) irrops silver (7) irrops elite skyteam (8) irrops ivory (9) irrops everyone else (10) irrops non-rev (11) non irrops

Passengers who are Club 2000, Plat, gold, elite +, J and F also get additional privileges (higher level of hotel accommodation if applicable, possibility to suspend some of the rerouting rules applicable to regular tickets, etc)

I came in from CPH that day and saw a huge line at the transfer ticketing desks and thought, ok what flight got axed.. and then walking past the main ticketing hall to see a lot of people queuing at the International Rail Desks...

So what happened really?

In any IRROP situation all remaining seats on any remaining flight should be reallocated such that Elites are catered first in their original booking, then IRROP elites and then the silvers, ivories and then the poor souls who don't even have FB.

Seriously, the OP is usually an objective poster and I think that his son may have expressed some desire that the counter staff could have found him some alternative flight out of AMS and then back into PAR be it something like AMS-LCY-ORY. Although in those situations where there is a long line at the counter it's much better to use the call centre.
It may be the way you believe it ought to occur, but I don't think AF does it that way other than for its real VIP's, as opposed to various colors of shiny plastic cards !

I did not expect that the mentioning of this minor incident would attract all these posts. Thanks for the interest and the kind advises. When irrops happen in unfamiliar airport and country (as this was the case), pax are facing a very different situation than at home where they know the tricks.
it seems to me that some logical complains in this case is 1) AF did not call, 2) very very long lines with no apparent line for elites 3) he tried to call the French club line stored on his BB but no answer in reasonable amount of time. A local would have know the Dutch KL call center and maybe got a fast response despite being May 1. 4) the attitude of the agents (it must be tough to face 100 unhappy pax desperate to get home a few hundred kms away, but showing some compassion should also be part of their role).
Personally, I tend to share Often1's view. Except for VIPs (including AF friends/family/staff), shiny cards get little attention in "disorganized" irrops.

But yes, it could be that AFKL did not have a single seat available that day between AMS-CDG, no other available planes (it sounds more likely that it be a crew shortage) and that the only easy answer was: try the train, its fully booked but you might be more lucky.
In the grand scheme of things, such incidents without solution do happen and we have to accept it. Let's hope that AF promptly reimburse him without having to invest several hours in claiming.

I would say that ground staff should offer alternative, and must be aware of Thalys options, and make it as simple as possible for passengers.

It should never be passengers to arrange things in case of cancellation, especially for Elite ones.

it seems to me that some logical complains in this case is 1) AF did not call, 2) very very long lines with no apparent line for elites 3) he tried to call the French club line stored on his BB but no answer in reasonable amount of time. A local would have know the Dutch KL call center and maybe got a fast response despite being May 1. 4) the attitude of the agents (it must be tough to face 100 unhappy pax desperate to get home a few hundred kms away, but showing some compassion should also be part of their role).
Personally, I tend to share Often1's view. Except for VIPs (including AF friends/family/staff), shiny cards get little attention in "disorganized" irrops.


I definitely agree with your point 1), your point 4) and Nicolas75's point. I think 2) might be a misunderstanding. There are definitely elites lines in Amsterdam both landside and at the transfer desk. In fact, at transfer desk there is a little ticket machine (a bit similar to when you queue at the fish counter of Carrefour! ;) ) but you press different buttons for business, elite, elite plus, economy etc. In my experience they also tend to check your credentials. So I think maybe with the panic of the situation, your son ended up pressing the wrong button? As for point 3) I would say that the Club number is usually pretty responsive but if, as mentioned by Guy Betsy, there were multiple problems resulting in multiple irrops, it is definitely not capable of handling that (but that, in fairness, is true of all airlines including Asian ones as I found out when facing a problem on my SQ itinerary while there was a serious weather problem in Thailand).

Again, the AF (and I'm sure KL)'s instructions are DEFINITELY that a different is made between elites/business and non-elite economy passengers. The former have priority on rebooking given equal circumstances and additional benefits (sadly, in KL's case, it sometimes used to mean that elite pax used to get what they were entitled to while non-elite economy would be denied some of it but never mind). Personally my main two qualms would be:

(1) No phone call, no text, no email in advance. Not acceptable unless the cancellation really was only known at the last minute

(2) No pro-active offer of train as an alternative. Not 'unacceptable' per se but definitely 'falling short of the service they should offer'. AF irrops instructions specify that in case of cancellation rerouting on other airlines (preferably skyteam) can be offered if there is no alternative for a same day rerouting on AF-KL. I don't see why this should not be extended to train.

I think these two things, at least, were definitely within KLM's control and they have no excuse for not doing them.

(2) No pro-active offer of train as an alternative. Not 'unacceptable' per se but definitely 'falling short of the service they should offer'. AF irrops instructions specify that in case of cancellation rerouting on other airlines (preferably skyteam) can be offered if there is no alternative for a same day rerouting on AF-KL. I don't see why this should not be extended to train.Entirely agree but, IME, airlines (not just AF/KL but pretty much all of them) are not normally set up to offer alternatives other than another flight. You will typically not receive a train ticket or an offer to pay for car hire from an airline agent in irrops.* At best, you might get ex post facto reimbursement from customer relations but not pro-active offering of non-air alternative nor assurance at the time that this will be reimbursed if you suggest that yourself when discussing rerouting with the agent.


*:There might be exceptions to that on routes where there are air-rail agreements (eg: Paris-Brussels for AF).

Entirely agree but, IME, airlines (not just AF/KL but pretty much all of them) are not normally set up to offer alternatives other than another flight. You will typically not receive a train ticket or an offer to pay for car hire from an airline agent in irrops.* At best, you might get ex post facto reimbursement from customer relations but not pro-active offering of non-air alternative nor assurance at the time that this will be reimbursed if you suggest that yourself when discussing rerouting with the agent.


*:There might be exceptions to that on routes where there are air-rail agreements (eg: Paris-Brussels for AF).

You are absolutely right. The paradox is that the AF instructions explicitly specify the use of public transportation but only in case the rerouting (by flight) is to a different airport! I think they should (and it would be easy to) include a small correction to suggest that if the train offers a fast and practical alternative on the specific route used by the passenger, it should be offered as an alternative if the passenger accepts it. I suspect the main issue is that there are specific agreements between airlines to take each other's irrops at discounted rates while no such agreements exist with rail companies (I assume) but maybe that would be worth investigating on such routes as Paris-Amsterdam, Lyon, etc.

Suite (et pas fin)... repsonse from AFL to a request for reimbursement of train ticket and miles credited. They are basically offering 8,000 FB miles for the 208€ spent.
"

Monsieur,

J'ai bien reçu votre courrier électronique du 02 mai 2012 concernant les expériences que vous avez rencontrées lors de votre voyage d'Amsterdam à Paris le 01 mai. Je conçois tout à fait les inconvénients causés et tiens par la présente à vous exprimer, au nom de KLM, mes vives excuses.

...

Je regrette que ces circonstances aient perturbé votre voyage. Pour ce qui concerne les dépenses additionnelles vous avez encouru en atteignant votre destination définitive par des autres moyens de transport, je me permets de vous expliquer que notre devoir de diligence se prolonge à reporter nos clients sur le premier vol disponible ou un remboursement du coupon non utilisé de votre billet. J'ai ainsi le regret de ne pas pourvoir répondre favorablement à votre demande de compensation du transport additionnel non disposé par nous.

En conséquence, je vous invite de vous approcher du centre de ventes en France pour les informations détaillées concernant le remboursement du coupon non utilisé, vu seul l'émettrice y étant habilitée.

Compte tenu de votre fidélité, j'aimerais vous offrir un bonus de 8,000 miles comme dédommagement du prix de train, conformément au barème de 53Euro par tranche de 2,000 miles. Votre compte Flying Blue sera bientôt crédité.

En vous remerciant par avance pour votre compréhension et coopération, je vous prie de croire, Monsieur, à l'assurance de ma considération distinguée.

xxxx xxxx
Chargée de Relations Clientèle

It's frowned on to publish staff names here on Flyer Talk (at least, staff that are not high-profile and whose names may reasonably be expected to be known)

Shame they don't want to reimburse the Thalys ticket - but they are offering to refund the unused flight coupon if my French is up to it.

Sorry for the name and thanks JOUY31 for removing it. I pasted the email too quickly when my son forwarded it. I smiled reading it (I am not the one who suffered), but he is furious.
When he finally reached the counter agent after lining up for an hour, he says that they had not rebooked him yet on any alternative. All they could consider is to rebook him at midday the next day (but did not offer hotel as typical of KL). They were the one to suggest Thalys .
The return segment is worthless, it was a nonrefundable rather-cheap week-end ticket.
Personally, I find the whole thing amusing and showing the lack of customer culture at AF, especially towards elite+.
Remember that there was no outside circumstances to justify the cancellation of this specific flight. It is a lose-lose situation for AF for a rather small sum. They lose goodwill and I am confident that they will end up paying for the expense and possibly the due EC 261/2004 compensation that he was not even claiming (but will). Time-consuming but Amusing.

Suite (et pas fin)... repsonse from AFL to a request for reimbursement of train ticket and miles credited. They are basically offering 8,000 FB miles for the 208€ spent.
"

Monsieur,

J'ai bien reçu votre courrier électronique du 02 mai 2012 concernant les expériences que vous avez rencontrées lors de votre voyage d'Amsterdam à Paris le 01 mai. Je conçois tout à fait les inconvénients causés et tiens par la présente à vous exprimer, au nom de KLM, mes vives excuses.

...

Je regrette que ces circonstances aient perturbé votre voyage. Pour ce qui concerne les dépenses additionnelles vous avez encouru en atteignant votre destination définitive par des autres moyens de transport, je me permets de vous expliquer que notre devoir de diligence se prolonge à reporter nos clients sur le premier vol disponible ou un remboursement du coupon non utilisé de votre billet. J'ai ainsi le regret de ne pas pourvoir répondre favorablement à votre demande de compensation du transport additionnel non disposé par nous.

En conséquence, je vous invite de vous approcher du centre de ventes en France pour les informations détaillées concernant le remboursement du coupon non utilisé, vu seul l'émettrice y étant habilitée.

Compte tenu de votre fidélité, j'aimerais vous offrir un bonus de 8,000 miles comme dédommagement du prix de train, conformément au barème de 53Euro par tranche de 2,000 miles. Votre compte Flying Blue sera bientôt crédité.

En vous remerciant par avance pour votre compréhension et coopération, je vous prie de croire, Monsieur, à l'assurance de ma considération distinguée.

xxxx xxxx
Chargée de Relations Clientèle

I received the same kind of letter last year when flying CDG-MRS and wanted to use after a public coach to reach the town of Manosque. This coach stops right in front of hall 3/4 of MRS, so it's basically a 5 min walk from the plane door. I had 45 min between plane arrival and coach departure. But the flight from CDG was heavily delayed, so I missed the bus and the next one was ... 6 hrs later :mad:

I asked AF ground staff at MRS to see what they could propose but they were clueless and I really had the feeling they found my demand completely exotic. I then called Le Club who was more comprehensive but they said I have to handle extra expenses on my own and send receipt after to customer service for reimbursement. I finally rented a car but AF refused to reimburse me anything and just offered something like 2000 miles for compensation of the delay :mad:
I know the contract with AF was only to fly CDG-MRS but when their irrops are causing onward journey problems, they should consider them.

but did not offer hotel as typical of KL

AF (ROC and pro-active rebooking) has not been good on this one, but KL, as the operating carrier and the staff manning the desks at AMS, needs to abandon its blatant disregard for EC 261/2004.

Suite (et pas fin)... repsonse from AFL to a request for reimbursement of train ticket and miles credited. They are basically offering 8,000 FB miles for the 208€ spent.
"

Monsieur,

J'ai bien reçu votre courrier électronique du 02 mai 2012 concernant les expériences que vous avez rencontrées lors de votre voyage d'Amsterdam à Paris le 01 mai. Je conçois tout à fait les inconvénients causés et tiens par la présente à vous exprimer, au nom de KLM, mes vives excuses.

...

Je regrette que ces circonstances aient perturbé votre voyage. Pour ce qui concerne les dépenses additionnelles vous avez encouru en atteignant votre destination définitive par des autres moyens de transport, je me permets de vous expliquer que notre devoir de diligence se prolonge à reporter nos clients sur le premier vol disponible ou un remboursement du coupon non utilisé de votre billet. J'ai ainsi le regret de ne pas pourvoir répondre favorablement à votre demande de compensation du transport additionnel non disposé par nous.

En conséquence, je vous invite de vous approcher du centre de ventes en France pour les informations détaillées concernant le remboursement du coupon non utilisé, vu seul l'émettrice y étant habilitée.

Compte tenu de votre fidélité, j'aimerais vous offrir un bonus de 8,000 miles comme dédommagement du prix de train, conformément au barème de 53Euro par tranche de 2,000 miles. Votre compte Flying Blue sera bientôt crédité.

En vous remerciant par avance pour votre compréhension et coopération, je vous prie de croire, Monsieur, à l'assurance de ma considération distinguée.

xxxx xxxx
Chargée de Relations Clientèle

This is simply an idiotic reply. 'Conformement au bareme de €53 par tranche de 2000 miles'??? That is the epitomy of customer service incompetence. As JOUY31 mentions, this is effectively KLM's file and fault (as the operating career) but it doesn't change a thing. If that is the way they want to play it, then indeed, your son should seek compensation for the cancelled flight under regulation EC 261/2004 and specifying that KL cancelled the flight and only offered a next day alternative.

This is simply an idiotic reply. 'Conformement au bareme de €53 par tranche de 2000 miles'??? That is the epitomy of customer service incompetence. As JOUY31 mentions, this is effectively KLM's file and fault (as the operating career) but it doesn't change a thing. If that is the way they want to play it, then indeed, your son should seek compensation for the cancelled flight under regulation EC 261/2004 and specifying that KL cancelled the flight and only offered a next day alternative.That is also how I would tend to react to it. If there is no reason amounting to an extenuating circumstance and they sent me a reply like that, I would claim the standard €250 Reg 261/2004 compensation as per Art 5.1(c)(iii)+Art 7.1(a) of the Reg.

That said, I would have written to KL's customer relations first (rather than AF) since it is a KL issue more than an AF one. Not that I believe that this would have been more fruitful but still it needs to be done.

There might be a case for damages under the Montreal Convention here but compensation under Reg 261/2004 should be more straighforward.

That said, I would have written to KL's customer relations first (rather than AF) since it is a KL issue more than an AF one. Not that I believe that this would have been more fruitful but still it needs to be done.



Fully agree (it is wholly a KLM issue) - but in practice are they separate in France?

The ticket was issued by AF not KL. The email was sent to AF but the reply came from AF customer care in the name of KLM.
The weather report was fine for AMS on May 1, contrary to what is claimed in the response (easy to prove with several websites). The KL agent did suggest to take the train as the only alternative to get back before midday May 2. Apparently my son was not aware that the Thalys stopped at the airport so he went back to Amsterdam centraal :)
Following your suggestions, he will claim compensation.