Air France Frequence Plus - CDG DO 2012 - powered by Air France & ADP - LIVE DO REPORT

Hello everybody,

only a few more hours and an exceptional event will start at Paris CDG airport. AirFrance invited 40 flyertalker to Paris for a 24h-behind-the-scenes event.

for details about the DO: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-france-frequence-plus/1274446-sign-up-closed-1st-flyertalk-cdg-do-2012-powered-air-france-adp-apr26-27-a-new-post.html

this thread will be used to share the event with many flyertalker who could not attend this DO for various reasons. We will post here our impressions from the various events, add photos to this and hope you'll enjoy reading almost as much as we enjoy the DO.

Your reporter from CDG will be: airchristophe, stimpy, goldorak,
nicolas75, kq321 and me - chrissxb.

To ensure a good reading experience for everybody, please do not post in this thread until the DO is over. if you have questions - post them in the other thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-france-frequence-plus/1274446-sign-up-closed-1st-flyertalk-cdg-do-2012-powered-air-france-adp-apr26-27-a-new-post.html). I asked the moderators here to help us with this. Thanks for your understanding

chrissxb

After a really short night, I am in the waiting area for AF2509. the security check at STR was a real nightmare, but I am in good mood. Will meet with my fellow FTer AF001 soon. He's probably sitting in the lounge - oh the good old days ... ;)

I am really excited and I look forward to an event which did cost me alot of time to plan. First contact between Flyertalk and Air France was established many years ago, we have bi-annual meetings and on the meeting last october we decided finally to go one step further and invite 40 flyertalker to spend 24h with Air France and ADP at CDG airport.

7:40 am at the Sheraton CDG, and it's time for a quick breakfast in the lounge. I arrived last night to find the newly renovated lounge serving a much improved selection of food. ^

After over 16 years of staying at this hotel, most of those years as Starwood Platinum, and never ever receiving a suite upgrade, I decided to force the issue and use the new Starwood suite upgrade program and now I can see for the first time what a suite looks like here. Pretty nice and finally some space. ^

Soon I'll make my way downstairs to the CDGVAL, ride to Roissypole, take the shuttle to the Hyatt and meet the rest of the group. This is going to be a great two days!

I arrived here yesterday. Being met at the gate was a nice touch (thanks Chrissxb!)

Frankc6 was on the same shuttle bus to the Hyatt as me (his FB Gold tag was a bit a of a giveaway that he was likely a fellow FTer...)

Looking forward to meeting everyone else shortly, and to a very interesting DO.

A lot of anxious people here at the Hyatt, ready to go, but as always there are a few stragglers we are waiting for.

Great to see and meet everyone so far!

We've made it to the hub and everyone is going through security

We've made it to the hub and everyone is going through security

We made it thru security and are discussing at the hub control centre the future projets for. CDG2012.


Very interesting discussion. Did you know that they call the airlines at the 2G "3e niveau" ?

The Hub control center was very interesting and impressive. It is quite a large team of experts that takes care of every flight, baggage, transfers, etc.

It must be insane there when the weather is bad or there is a strike. But they said it was quite peaceful during the volcano. :)

Just coming out of the Hub control center. Very impressive. Huge room with hundreds of computer screens. That's the place where people are controling departures and arrivals, transfers, irrops, well everything. All functions are represented there, including Servair, police, etc.
We are now moving to Servair, by bus, riding on the tarmac in the middle of big birds.

Now arriving at Servair. Yum

Breaking news for arrival lounge : will stay at 2C for 2012 and likely 2013 (at least S1). New lounge will be likely between 2E and 2F

For cost reasons, Y long-haul food is not cooked/prepared anymore at Servair CDG. It is subcontracted to Nestlé or Fleury Michon in Britanny. J&F food is cooked at Servair CDG

Excellent repas at Servair. But the best part was having a deep discussion with Olivier Poussier, sommelier du monde 2000. I didn't take it easy on him though. AF biz class wines arent good enough to me and not enough Burgundy. More later on our discussion, we've put on special coats and boots for the kitchen tour

On the way to AF HQ to meet the AF CEO.

Full of food and drink, we are now at HQ and awaiting the CEO

The new le Nôtre and other special trays for Y food (price between 18 and 29€) look really great. Already in place on some test routes. Will be implemented on the entire long-haul network in july.

Very positive yet frank talk with the CEO. He really believes he will turn the airline around in 2 years. We had a nice group photo with him too.

Now we're in different workshops Flying Blue (with the new FB chef Jean Marc Pouchol), marketing (Laurent Petitdemange) and a workshop with flight crew. Switching every 45min

We watched some training and talked jet lag, but didn't get a chance to try the A380 emergency slide.

Currently in the crew training center, 3 mini workshops

A very exciting and busy day, what a program.

Discussing sky priority: improvements need to be done, not only at outstations, agents don't know (yet) how to handèle this. But there's hope :) better signs are planned, too.

All these workshops are held in aircraft models at the crew training center.

Not much nice to say about the Flying Blue session other than they got our feedback and they understand our frustrations. It's new management so I'll remain hopeful.

Actually buckled up sitting in the cabin training simulator !

Our group finished with a workshop with customer experience managers, especially relating to short and medium haul. There was lots of discussion of food and whether there should be a divider separating the classes or not. Afterwards I walked to Roissypole and am now back at my hotel where I need to recharge for the gala dinner tonight. It's been a long day and it's not over yet!

Very positive discussions with the FB team. They understand the need to more differentiate gold and plat, and plat vs LTPE. We gave them some suggestions :-)
The wish to have a FB helpdesk at CDG has been expressed
Very nice people definitely wanting to listen to us.

Well, it's been a very interesting, and packed, day. And good to finally put some faces (and real names) on to FT handles.

I think we were all disappointed not to get to try out an emergency slide in the crew training centre. However, having stood at the bottom of the (very tall) emergency slide for an A380, I'm not sure I'm still so keen to fly on the UD of an A380....

For both the FB, and short/medium-haul discussions, management seemed very willing to listen, and also keen to hear our criticisms.

Dinner is winding down. All the speeches were given and a few prizes were given out. Everyone is full and happy. Maybe there will be an after hours drinking session somewhere if I know my Flyertalkers.

Plus Chris just gave €1200+ on behalf of all of us to the AF Foundation for troubled children.

I forgot to say that May 20th or thereabouts there is going to be a big announcement from the head of AF marketing. I think FB related. Maybe someone else here knows more than me because I had a bit of wine before he mentioned this. ;)

Regarding pictures, there are lots of people taking photos and some of them seem pretty professional. I'm not one of them so we'll have to wait til they post their blogs or whatever to see the pictures.

Regarding the new meals from Guy Martin, everyone has their own taste and all I can tell you is they seemed great to me. In economy class there will be the option to purchase in advance a very nice meal for around €22 or so. This is already being tested on a few routes and will be fully in place system-wide this summer. It looked very nice for economy. We got copies of the new business class menu which someone can hopefully scan and post here later. It seems rather nice.

Regarding wines, I talked with M. Poussier about Burgundy versus Bordeaux and other regions and how I prefer a higher class wine for my €3500 business class ticket. But he explained that they go through something like 30,000 bottles a week (I think) and most producers, especially in Burgundy, cannot support that much business. So the only Burgundy wine they will have is a Maconnais blanc which is ok, but not great. The Bordeaux blanc which we'll see more often is also OK, but completely different. It is from Graves Château Villa Bel-Air. The Bordeaux rouge, 2004 Château Cantemerle en Haut Médoc is a Grande Cru Classe and not bad. The Crozes-Hermitage Les Meysonniers 2008 Syrah was pretty decent too. For Champagne they will serve a Henriot Brut in business class to go with the Henriot Cuvée des Enchanteleurs they currently serve in First class.

A very good dinner has just finished...

Over pre-dinner drinks, we had an unscheduled discussion with ADP and AF ground operations. A strong request was made for better signage at CDG...! ADP indicated they're already well aware of the need for this, and are working on improvements. I was also very pleased to hear the Hub2012 (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-france-frequence-plus/1272106-hub-2012-future-cdg2-developments.html) presentation this morning, as it seems this will make life for connecting passengers at CDG much better. Very much looking forward to our sneak preview of the new Terminal S4 tomorrow morning.

Also, it was announced that the new www.flyingbluenews.com website is live. This confirms the news (http://www.flyingbluenews.com/news/1132/carry-over-your-level-miles-to-2012-and-beyond.html) regarding the new system for carry-over of level miles for all elite levels (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/flying-blue-air-france-klm-other-partners/1313595-programme-update-roll-over-level-miles-above-level-threshold-elite-members.html), and also has a "Flying Blue Store (http://earnonline.flyingbluenews.com/en/)", which enables you to earn FB Award miles while shopping online. It seems the majority of retailers are in France or NL (unsurprisingly) but they have plans to add more in other countries as well. You can also book some non-airline awards online.

After dinner, Jenbel, Psollit and I all agreed how impressed we were with both the range of activities at the DO - and the level of engagement by AF management :-)

It was a great day very well organized.^

Air France staff showed us that this company is definitely not like any other: people are extremely attached to their company, and can demonstrate an impressive commitment.

Air France staff - and in the first place Mr. De Juniac - has been remarkably openminded: no waffling, a real desire to say things, to share the passion.

This day was for me also the opportunity to put faces on Flyertalk's nicknames, and remember that the community is incredibly friendly and passionate.

Back home after late champagne session in Jouy31's room with some joyful flyertalkers (neighbors hate us already!:D:D).

Good morning. Sitting at breakfast at the Hyatt. Most people still seem to be asleep.

What a great evening. I strongle believe there will be a 2nd AF DO. Not next week - but it will happen!

Up and at 'em, have to be on time to go play airplane and get an exclusive sneak peek at Satellite 4.

Up at 6:30 today. Why? I don't know. But now it's time to head over to the Hyatt. I hope everyone got enough rest!

Posting from inside the belly of an A340 that is leaving to Caracas in 60 minutes!

We are now in S4 having a nice tour from ADP. We are the first outsiders to see this. Interesting that free wifi works, but no 3G service here yet.

We didn't get to see the new lounge, but it will have 10 showers and hot food. Plus a VIP area that isn't yet defined.

S4 has lots more space and a better overall design. It feels like one of those huge new Asian airports.

That's it. We are on the bus back to the middle of T2, gare SNCF

We are heading now to the TGV station. The DO is unfortunately over :-(
This morning was as great as yesterday. I was in the same A340 belly as Stimpy !! It was very impressive to see the huge landing gear from so close. We saw also refueling operations, as well as bagage handling systems.
S4 look very promising. The boarding area are very nice and spacious. Unfortunately, it's not been possible to enter AF lounge, as they were making the floor. Hot food in the lounge will be a very good improvement. Only strange and negative point is the lack of moving walkways until the end of the terminal (either at departure and arrival levels).

One last benefit is that all Attendees who are FB members will get a little boost in their accounts.

The DO is now over. I want to say that this is the best event I ever attended. So I want to congratulate and send millions of thank you to Crissxb, Jouy31, Orbitmic and all AF/ADP staff for these great moments.

Sitting in the D2 Lounge now and waiting for my flight to STR.
Can not belive that the Do is already finished and I an still overwhelmed of all the insights and impressions of the last 36 hours.

To monitor the flight preparation today in the morning (airside) was my personal highlight, never been so close to an aircraft and somebody next to you, who answered all those hundred questions whilst witnessing the preparation process for a long-houl flight. However, I was as well very impressed about the very open discussions and conversations we had with the AF Management on yesterday. It seems that there is a culture change in progress and that Air France is seeking the opinion and experiences of their customers. For sure they will never satisfy all our demands and wishes (some of them might be as well a little bit unreasonable to be frank), but I could feel that there is a new spirit growing with the new CEO, lets hope they will progress with "real" product and service enhancements.

A big "Thank You" to Chrissxb who organized this Do, I think I can speak for all others as well when I say that we will remember those 1,5 days for a very long time, and of course as well to Air France, ADP and to everybody from the community who helped to make the Do happen!

To all who are now on the way to MLP, have a good time and lots of fun and to all others, have a save trip home and see you hopefully at the next Air France-Flyertalk Do... :-)

Being out on the ramp as a 777-200 was prepared for departure to TNR was very interesting. About 45mins before departure, and the ground crew are loading bags on the right side of the plane, while a fuel pump stands by on the left, in case the captain decides more fuel is needed, and the passengers are about to start boarding. Then, 6 containers (10MT) of cargo can’t be loaded, due to a handling equipment malfunction somewhere else. So, the load sheet for the flight needs to be reworked. Meanwhile, the captain does his own walk around of the plane.

Up at the gate, about 20 mins before departure, and 41 pax are still outstanding. The gate agent makes a call, and a few minutes later it’s dropped to only 30 outstanding. Down on the ramp, the ground crew are waiting, ready to pull off any bags in case anyone no-shows. Some of our group who regularly reach the gate at the last minute start to feel bad for causing the airline staff so much angst...

Back on the ramp, and the missing cargo suddenly arrives. The ground crew are ready to load it, but the captain decides not to take it in the end (we didn’t get told why – possibly due to time, or possible as the available weight had now been replaced with fuel). So, the last remaining containers of bags need to go in the forward hold, and the load sheet is re-done, again.

Less than 10 minutes before departure, and the gate declares some passengers no-show. So, the ground crew have to open up the forward hold, and start pulling out the containers that were just loaded, to find and remove the relevant bags. At this point, every minute counts, and the opportunity is taken to load some more loose freight into the rear hold. So, the load sheet has to be re-worked yet again. At the same time, a mechanic is crouching over the massive leftside landing gear, with what looks like a giant can of WD40...

Unfortunately, we had to leave for the tour of S4 before the flight eventually pushed back. However, I now have a lot more respect for any airline that ever manages to get a flight to actually depart on time (or to depart at all, for that matter). The number of different things that need to come together (and the number of things that can go wrong) is quite outstanding... I think all our group agreed that we’d be more tolerant next time we’re sitting on board a stationary plane, and the captain comes on saying “Ladies and gentleman, as you’ll have noticed, it’s a few minutes after our scheduled departure time...”

Stimpy has already mentioned the tour of S4 (M gates), which was very spacious and pleasant. Lots of natural light, and energy-saving designs. A real shame not to see inside the new, largest ever AF lounge – but there are some nice touches for regular pax as well: 15 mins free wifi, and power sockets between every pair of seats in the terminal. However, note that as the majority of AF’s connecting pax travel before 2pm, S4 will be closed from mid-afternoon onwards, and remaining long-haul flights will go from S3.

Overall, a great event, and many thanks again to Air France, ADP, FB, and of course Chrissxb, Jouy31 and Orbitmic for organising it.

it's been a pleasure for me to co-organize this DO with AirFrance. We're currently sitting in the Sheraton CDG, waiting for our tgv to Montpellier - Flyertalk Tour de France DO. :)

Wow your flight was much more interesting with all those operational obstacles !

FGEXB to SFO had already been delayed 20 minutes so we were unfortunately unable to be there for the pushback. Tthe only thing that happened was a passenger service agent came to explain a colleague added a bag to the wrong check in record. For security purposes the bag had to be unloaded and the real owner had to confirm it was his bag. Only at that point could the bad be retagged and reloaded.

I was really impressed by the welcome of the ramp supervisors and leaders. They really took the time to show us the holds and explain the loading processes. I was also impressed at the opportunity to ride in the push back tug for departure !

Personally I find S4 to be OK... Maybe I will change my mind when it becomes functional. It is my impression there is not nearly enough space for the all the passengers to be expected. I will remain optimistic.

I am thrilled Air France welcomed all of you with such open arms and that everything went so well.

Tremendous thanks to chrissxb, jouy31... I can't put a face to orbitmic I'm sorry !

Everything went so well... Smooth organization ! Clearly, walking underneath those big birds this morning was the highlight. I felt like a kid.

Thanks to AF some pictures are already there : http://ow.ly/i/Ax75 (wait... wasn't it forgotten to take pictures ? ;-)) and of course, we all wait for the interview of nicolas75 on corporate.airfrance.com ! And those who win more visits yesterday should really provide us with a detailed report.

I think both parties have benefited from those unforgettable two days. Personnally I found a bunch of people quite motivated and passionate about their job - this also applies to some people we met and who weren't brieffed about our visit. The workshops we had yesterday were very interesting. Automatic check-in was discussed and AF now knows about our experience. And I hope the new FB team didn't felt too much like gladiators in the arena ;-)

Thank you to the organizers, to our hosts, and it was a pleasure to meet all of you !

Nico40.

does somebody knows how i can save the images from the above link ?

We didn't get to see the new lounge, but it will have 10 showers and hot food. Plus a VIP area that isn't yet defined.

What we (unfortunately) have not seen (http://www.journal-aviation.com/actualites/16053-air-france-detaille-son-nouveau-salon-affaires-au-satellite-s4)

What we have seen (almost finished) (http://www.businesstravel.fr/2012033012240/en-voyage/aeroports/hub-2012-air-france-va-demenager-ses-vols-long-courriers-au-terminal-2e.html)

Looking back on it it almost seems surreal. I am going through CDG again tomorrow and I am sure the place will not look and feel the same again. And I mean that in a very positive way.

I have the feeling that AF is embarking to change many things for the positive, perhaps the wind of change that the people who also use KL have already sensed over the past year or so is spreading? Apart from that, I think the way CDG is going could actually rank it amongst the best main hubs in Europe before you know it (Unless when you have a connection at 2G :p )

Although there has been a big shower of thanks already I would like to repeat one more. Thank you to chrisxb and the other organizer at FT. And thank you to AF for making this event very informative, very interesting, very classy, and most of all very special! ^

It was a pleasure to have met you all. (I must admit I haven't managed to link all faces and nicks of the participants!) In any case, hope to meet you all again soon! (KL/AMS DO? ;) )

The Do has just now ended for me as I kept celebrating during my flight here to ATL. A very long day indeed. A big thanks to the Flyertalk, AF and ADP organizers and management. ^

does somebody knows how i can save the images from the above link ?

you can't. but if you use my link, you can :p

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/18476416-post422.html

I'm glad everyone who was there enjoyed it. However, I'm surprised that none of the reports actually mention any criticism against AF - which is richly deserved. Did anyone mention 350 Euros charges on FB "award" tickets. Did anyone mention the 10 abreast seating on the 777. I could go on...

I'm glad everyone who was there enjoyed it. However, I'm surprised that none of the reports actually mention any criticism against AF - which is richly deserved. Did anyone mention 350 Euros charges on FB "award" tickets. Did anyone mention the 10 abreast seating on the 777. I could go on...

Oh believe me AF heard some criticism. The FB people had that deer in the headlights look when we came at them! We were very polite though.

I think we will see some improvements on fuel surcharges on award tickets soon. And while some did criticize them about the 777 economy seats, I don't think there is any result to expect from that.

Also regarding seats, the CEO repeated his famous quote from earlier that by 2014 AF would be better than SQ for first and business class seats. I wondered about that later when someone said that AF would only lose one or two rows with this change?

Oh believe me AF heard some criticism. The FB people had that deer in the headlights look when we came at them! We were very polite though.

I think we will see some improvements on fuel surcharges on award tickets soon. And while some did criticize them about the 777 economy seats, I don't think there is any result to expect from that.

Also regarding seats, the CEO repeated his famous quote from earlier that by 2014 AF would be better than SQ for first and business class seats. I wondered about that later when someone said that AF would only lose one or two rows with this change?

Thank you Stimpy. Glad to hear it. I was just booking 3 "award" tickets to Boston and I had to pay 1,300 Euros in charges. Compare to United award tickets on SQ, TG and LH to Asia we paid 300 Euros for the four of us.

I'm happy to hear your omptism about AF. I hope it really happens. Althoug the CEO's comment about bettering SQ seems to be the first stage of denial...

I'm glad everyone who was there enjoyed it. However, I'm surprised that none of the reports actually mention any criticism against AF - which is richly deserved. Did anyone mention 350 Euros charges on FB "award" tickets. Did anyone mention the 10 abreast seating on the 777. I could go on...

I share many of the views you mention, but I guess it's also important to remember that there is a time for everything. There are regular (normally semestrial) FT-AF/FB meetings which are there explicitly to channel dissatisfaction and talk/hear about possible solutions/corrections to some such shortcomings. They are conducted in a constructive spirit but without any sugar coating (or fear to repeat the same complaints over and again) on the FT part. The do, however, was not one such event but instead a time when AF and ADP wanted to show they cared about FT as a community by giving 40 FTers a chance to experience some aspects of their operations in ways which most passengers (even very frequent ones) will never experience in their lifetime.

I'd argue that both exercises serve some purpose. The regular meetings have probably played a small role in attempts by AF and FB to define some axes of improvement (come on, would anyone want to make the argument that the new rollover status miles is NOT an improvement? And as others have mentioned other significant improvements to both the flying experience and FB will come) and I'm sure that as stimpy mentioned, the 'do group' also reinforced those messages and that this will further add to AF's understanding of where it underperforms from the passengers' point of view. On other aspects, we have known for a long time that we would not win (10 across 777, status miles on the AF-Amex card, NEO seats are all areas about which AF never pretended to give us any hope). But even more importantly, thanks to AF's and CDG's playing the game so fully, to chrissxb and JOUY31, and to all 40 participants to the do, the event clearly did exactly what it was supposed to do and provided all concerned with an experience which everyone seems to describe as fun, enjoyable, and mutually enriching. I should also add that I'm very proud that the group made a wonderful €1,200 donation which will serve some fantastic charitable causes and proves to everyone that FTers are not only concerned about 'getting' things but equally about giving and helping.^

Oh believe me AF heard some criticism. The FB people had that deer in the headlights look when we came at them! We were very polite though.

I think we will see some improvements on fuel surcharges on award tickets soon. And while some did criticize them about the 777 economy seats, I don't think there is any result to expect from that.

Also regarding seats, the CEO repeated his famous quote from earlier that by 2014 AF would be better than SQ for first and business class seats. I wondered about that later when someone said that AF would only lose one or two rows with this change?

de Juniac clearly stated that the margins are so thin that it wasn't economically possible to change the config of the economy cabins.

I and many others heavily criticised FB, in my case particularly for the 187 mile nonsense. stimpy pointed out that FB just need to look at BAEC and as the market research has already been carried out! Of all the meetings I would say FB were the most defensive and pretty immersed in their corporate *cough*. The cabin development guys wanted to know what we would improve and listened carefully to our ideas.

From talking to many an FTer it seemed that BAEC is the place to be! For me, examples like how there will be no hot food until S4 opens which is miles behind every major European airline even their own KLM. By investing 50c per passenger on such a small improvement in all their lounges it would make an enormous difference to the loyalty of FB members, or the seat-block or simply do something that no one else is doing, like talking all the best bits from BAEC, M&M etc to really win back pax who left due to the Fools Day changes and other reasons. I wish management could grasp this.

Overall, it was a really great do, I hope that AF can take on-board even a small part of our ideas/complaints and appreciate the compliments we have given them. I really appreciate the time taken to prepare this by all involved ^.

I recall now that at dinner we discussed op-ups. I mentioned that it would be nice that op-ups had a bit more transparency and of course that Platinum members were favored. The comment was accepted and noted, but we then went into a general discussion about upgrades and how the US airlines have spoiled their first class product with all the upgrades.

AF is already offering paid upgrades to the next class and they say they get 10% acceptance. I said they should improve this system and increase the offers. I talked about how first class cabins are often quite empty and I would be happy to pay to upgrade to La Première and help them fill the cabin, but only for a reasonable price. It is a difficult balance as AF is determined to make sure that people who pay a tiny bit do not sit next to people who pay a lot. I agreed with this philosophy, but thought a better balance could be achieved.

I also discussed the ridiculous €800 fee for access in the La Première lounge. It was mentioned that I could eat the nice Alain Ducasse food, and I said I could get that in Paris for a lot less than €800. They asked me what the fee should be and I said somewhere between €100 and €200 would be fair and that this special deal should only be offered to Platinum members flying in Affaires in order to preserve the exclusivity of La Première.

I recall now that at dinner we discussed op-ups. I mentioned that it would be nice that op-ups had a bit more transparency and of course that Platinum members were favored. The comment was accepted and noted, but we then went into a general discussion about upgrades and how the US airlines have spoiled their first class product with all the upgrades.

About that. I was told that the advance long-haul upgrades by email are offered irrespective of status.

About that. I was told that the advance long-haul upgrades by email are offered irrespective of status.

Yes, that is a revenue source so it's open to anyone willing to pay.

de Juniac clearly stated that the margins are so thin that it wasn't economically possible to change the config of the economy cabins.

He also stated that 60% of AF revenue comes from economy class. I thought that was interesting. Later I learned from Marketing that AF feels that most premium class customers are individuals and that the vast majority of their corporate bookings are in economy.

I'm glad everyone who was there enjoyed it. However, I'm surprised that none of the reports actually mention any criticism against AF - which is richly deserved. Did anyone mention 350 Euros charges on FB "award" tickets. Did anyone mention the 10 abreast seating on the 777. I could go on...

Is it the place? According to reports, AF management was actually listening, and I don't think the group they met would tell us they were listening if they were only singing praise during the whole meeting. Maybe AF played pretend, of course, and many people will only believe in improvements when they see them. But in the past, in my experience, AF didn't even pretended to listen well, be it with customer service, AF-FT meetings or La Premiere dedicated lines. So either they are genuinely trying to improve or they are getting better at pretending. I am willing to let them the benefit of doubt until we see improvements in a reasonable timeframe (without changing my booking habits until then, of course).

Later I learned from Marketing that AF feels that most premium class customers are individuals and that the vast majority of their corporate bookings are in economy.

This is a message we have tried to hammer so hard so long (mostly in the form of 'stop thinking you J is booked up by corporate contracts - you have some corp tickets in J but you also have many individuals who have a choice and even some corp who have a choice and if you don't do what it takes to make them feel like flying AF J over and again, then your J will not be sustainable'). If they finally checked and that particular message finally sunk in (noone had ever admitted that in front of me yet), I think it might be the most important reason to hope for genuine improvement behind words yet. ^

I also discussed the ridiculous €800 fee for access in the La Première lounge. It was mentioned that I could eat the nice Alain Ducasse food, and I said I could get that in Paris for a lot less than €800. They asked me what the fee should be and I said somewhere between €100 and €200 would be fair and that this special deal should only be offered to Platinum members flying in Affaires in order to preserve the exclusivity of La Première.

I do agree € 800 is quite steep but there is more to that than just the food (private security personnel, transfer to aeroplane etc.) which do add up.

But the question is of course you are going to charge the invited people also for these sunk costs or just the variable costs.

This is a message we have tried to hammer so hard so long (mostly in the form of 'stop thinking you J is booked up by corporate contracts - you have some corp tickets in J but you also have many individuals who have a choice and even some corp who have a choice and if you don't do what it takes to make them feel like flying AF J over and again, then your J will not be sustainable'). If they finally checked and that particular message finally sunk in (noone had ever admitted that in front of me yet), I think it might be the most important reason to hope for genuine improvement behind words yet. ^

Fully agreed orbitmic.
As long as they keep hiding behind "corporate contracts" they are running into a wall. As long as they adopt this French-monopolistic attitude, they will slowly be losing premium market share. Sure, BNP and the like are huge captive clients and will remain so. But that is not enough to compete globally those days.

Fully agreed orbitmic.
As long as they keep hiding behind "corporate contracts" they are running into a wall. As long as they adopt this French-monopolistic attitude, they will slowly be losing premium market share. Sure, BNP and the like are huge captive clients and will remain so. But that is not enough to compete globally those days.

This was the head of AF Marketing who works directly with the CEO who passed me this information. These guys are in charge now and they get it. There are only two things blocking the execution of their vision. The poor economy and ultimately the union leaders who will try to stop any form of change. But the CEO has a positive attitude that AF can overcome these difficulties.

I am watching the sunset on the South China sea while enjoying reading the DO posts.

I wish to congratulate all participants and posters for the quality of the threads. Very happy to read them from afar and the enthusiasm of the participants show that AF has done a good marketing job. Bravo to AF.

I cannot avoid an ironic smile when I read that the CEO keeps repeating that AF will be better than SQ by 2014. I cannot avoid skepticism when I hear nothing about better treatment of Plat/Gold. My status is progressively moving down and I see no hopes that would make me change. The fact that paid upgrades (at attractive cost) are now open to everyone in a mysterious fashion is another nail in the coffin. My guess (based on a small sample) is that they prefer to offer paid upgrades to infrequent customers in order to attract them in the future rather than to offer the same paid upgrades to their most-loyal customers. The net result is to further reduce the probability of an upgrade for elite+ pax.

As mentioned above, FB should look at the improvements in BAEC (with some exception for continental-Europeans). The current premium products are bad, and hopefully the new CEO will miraculously find means to change that. But FB is also bad for premium pax. The usual answer was "corporate contracts", let's hope that indeed listen and act. Systematic and consistent actions are badly needed and I hope that the successful DO is the prelude to a great opera.

This was the head of AF Marketing who works directly with the CEO who passed me this information. These guys are in charge now and they get it. There are only two things blocking the execution of their vision. The poor economy and ultimately the union leaders who will try to stop any form of change. But the CEO has a positive attitude that AF can overcome these difficulties.

It is indeed impressive, and an excellent sign, that the most senior executives participate and offer a more realistic vision.
It is natural that the new CEO projects a positive attitude. But AF has been mostly losing money even in the recent good years post-2009. Hence, I would add a third major block to the execution of the vision, and that is the catastrophic current state of AF finances. Most of it is AF-specific but the outlook for the European economy is indeed not going to help.

The fact that paid upgrades (at attractive cost) are now open to everyone in a mysterious fashion is another nail in the coffin. My guess (based on a small sample) is that they prefer to offer paid upgrades to infrequent customers in order to attract them in the future rather than to offer the same paid upgrades to their most-loyal customers.

As always you make a very useful and insightful point. When the prospect of paid upgrades in all classes was first mentioned to us about a year ago, we were told that the AF direction had asked services to work on 6 routes to monetise upgrades, three targeted at the general public and three at FB members. I suspect that the former were intended to rely on cash only and the latter on miles or cash+miles. My guess is that because of the 'second dip' in the double (or the "w" as the French like to call it! :) ) they implemented one route only so far (the one that maximised cash intake) and much faster than they originally expected. I think, however, that it is right that we should point out that this has paradoxically meant that FB elites which were expected to have their 'own privileged routes' for upgrades end up being the implicit losers of this change in implementation. I think we should definitely mention it and hope that they find a way - even if it is different from what they had first envisaged - to ensure that FB elites get priority on paid upgrade availability at the very least.

I do not think that many airlines do paid upgrades to J on longhaul, at least not at the cheap cost charged by AF. Upgrades with miles are more frequent, while AF reserves it to full fares and makes it very mile-expensive. In my home, CX would charge the fare differential (so it is not attractive). TG does paid upgrade at the airport but it is significantly more expensive than on AF and TG is primarily a leisure airline having a difficult time filling its premium cabins except with awards from all *A. the main reason for avoiding cheap paid upgrade is to avoid devaluing its premium classes and inducing pax to book Y and then upgrade on the cheap.
Clearly AF needs all the cash it can get. And it is obvious that it tries to "induce" its Plat and Gold to buy J or PV tickets. So no paid upgrade options for them. I was recently on the beach with a large group of young French expats working mostly for French banks and traveling frequently to CDG in PV or Y. All Plats and they never got an offer to upgrade.They complained that a secretary on a cheap leisure ticket got the offer. Some posters would be happy with the inequality-correction approach. But it was another reason for AF-bashing on the beach.

I was recently on the beach with a large group of young French expats working mostly for French banks and traveling frequently to CDG in PV or Y. All Plats and they never got an offer to upgrade.They complained that a secretary on a cheap leisure ticket got the offer. Some posters would be happy with the inequality-correction approach. But it was another reason for AF-bashing on the beach.

They were probably right at some point: their premium cabins used to be filled with corporate contrats. But many companies apparently did what happened to those expats and used the crisis as an opportunity to fly their lower-ranking execs in third class.

It is indeed impressive, and an excellent sign, that the most senior executives participate and offer a more realistic vision.
It is natural that the new CEO projects a positive attitude.

It is a necessary first step. It won't necessarily be sufficent, but it was a prerequisite.

The poor economy and ultimately the union leaders who will try to stop any form of change. But the CEO has a positive attitude that AF can overcome these difficulties.

This has been a major and long-standing cop-out used by AF management. Union leaders aren't opposed to do more in exchange for a better pay package. Unions are opposed to AF's management decision to ask more of employees without giving anything in exchange, as they should. AF translates "we don't want to bear the cost of the improvements you ask for" into "the unions are blocking the improvements you ask for".

What the customers says:
"We want a proper full meal service on this route"
What AF tells their employees:
"Do you want to work more for free?"
What the employees answer:
"No. But you could always hire someone to do the added work".
What AF tells their customers:
"Unions are blocking full meal service on this route".

When in reality, it's AF that doesn't want to pay for it. They could tell us "it would cost us too much to implement it". The end result would be the same (no full meal service) but it would be honest instead of always trying to shift the blame on their employees. I don't care about AF's relationship with their employees. What would be the next step?

Customers: "We want Cristal"
AF to Roederer: "Would you sell us bottles at 10 € each?"
Roederer: looooool
AF to Customers: "Champagne producers are blocking that".

This has been a major and long-standing cop-out used by AF management. Union leaders aren't opposed to do more in exchange for a better pay package. Unions are opposed to AF's management decision to ask more of employees without giving anything in exchange, as they should. AF translates "we don't want to bear the cost of the improvements you ask for" into "the unions are blocking the improvements you ask for".

Let me be very clear that it was my personal opinion that the union leaders will eventually block change at AF. The CEO made no such statement and I asked him this directly. His direct response was that he thinks that AF employees realize the situation the company is in and will be very cooperative to reach the target reduction in costs. So no cop-out at all from AF.

A photo impression of this DO can be found here:

Let me be very clear that it was my personal opinion that the union leaders will eventually block change at AF. The CEO made no such statement and I asked him this directly. His direct response was that he thinks that AF employees realize the situation the company is in and will be very cooperative to reach the target reduction in costs. So no cop-out at all from AF.

OK, then it is another improvement over what I had heard in the past, where the AF workers/managements relations were used as an excuse. I agree that some changes will be difficult to implement because of the cost structure in the longer term, though, but that's an entirely different thing. I have no problemwith an airline that say openly "this change would cost us more than is financially sensible, so don't expect anything in that area".

A photo impression of this DO can be found here:

Very nice pics Michael!

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The event sounded really great from your comments ! Thanks for sharing with "live" comments and pictures :)

PLEASE DELETE FOR NOW ALL PHOTOS TAKEN AIRSIDE. NOT TO BE PUBLISHED ANYWHERE ONLINE.

I'll give more information on this, but it's french law!!! we can get in trouble for this. thanks for your understanding.

mods: please edit threads!

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check in at the Hyatt

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on the bus to the Hub Control Center

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in the hub control center

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let's get dressed up ;)

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alcohol onboard ^

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business class meals

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in the Japan kitchen

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economy class catering

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we're getting hungry!

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finally something for us - the new signature meals by Guy Martin

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we had to evaluate the meals

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Monsieur Alexandre de Juniac

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listen what he says

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and talk when you have the mic in your hand

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workshop with flying blue

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the new webshop

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workshop with the marketing division

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chat with flight crew in a moving cabin simulator

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I hope never having to use the A380 slides!

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real or fake? ;)

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AF staff loved our nice yellow tags ^

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more champagne!

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short question-answer session with ADP

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more questions ;)

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"MERCI BEAUCOUP"

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great dinner! excellent food!

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and the winner is ... (ps: I'll publish the list in the next days!)

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great evening - great people!

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shiny yellow people in the E terminal

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on our way to the new S4 terminal

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thank you & good bye!

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you rock!

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great evening - great people!

Thanks Chrissxb for sharing your pictures.
And thank you very much for having organized this great event with Jouy31, Orbitmic!

We really had fun. I did enjoy the event, and was very impressed by AF commitment.
But most of it, I.was so happy to have met Flyertalkers who are much more now than nicknames, but really good friends..

PLEASE DELETE FOR NOW ALL PHOTOS TAKEN AIRSIDE. NOT TO BE PUBLISHED ANYWHERE ONLINE.

That's why I took only closeups. Each of the photos I took you can easily find online already. I think if you read the law you won't find anything wrong.

great pictures ! thanks for such cool two days.

That's why I took only closeups. Each of the photos I took you can easily find online already. I think if you read the law you won't find anything wrong.

it's just for the moment, I work with AF on a rule, I just ask for a little patience. thanks :)

The rule we were told was no photos of ramp operations. I did not take any photos of ramp operations. I took a photo of a tire.

With regards to the prizes do the winners need to do anything or are we waiting for AF to get in touch to arrange an appointment?

With regards to the prizes do the winners need to do anything or are we waiting for AF to get in touch to arrange an appointment?

I thought we had to contact Christian giving a number of dates of our preference.

Ad Christian, does it have to be a weekday or is a weekend also possible?

Gajan

dear winners,

please get in touch with me for the prize you won, I will then coordinate everything with you and AF :)

three basic rules:

within next year
not in july/august
on a weekday


I will publish this week a list with all winner and the prize they got :)

I will publish this week a list with all winner and the prize they got :)

Remember, I won a world tour in P for two. :D:D

I'd like to add my (belated) thanks to Chrissxb, JOUY31, Orbitmic and the people from AF and ADP. This event surpassed my expectations, and I was particularly impressed that the AF folks seemed to be genuinely interested in our feedback/suggestions. Seeing many aspects of AF, including the Hub control center, and seeing how it all comes together on the apron, was impressive. Of course I couldn't stop looking out the window at what was occurring on the apron yesterday for my flight to JFK...knowing more about what goes into a flight, it is fascinating. Looking forward to my next trip to CDG this Wednesday.

Thank you for posting all the nice pictures in the thread,



real or fake? ;)


As real as you want to believe it :D

three basic rules:

within next year
not in july/august
on a weekday


I will publish this week a list with all winner and the prize they got :)

Dear winners- if you can't attend a simulator session, I will gladly help you solve the problem and attend myself :P
(same applies for a day in the control center...always wanted to hold a flight for myself)

It was great meeting y'all at the AF DO. ^ Thank you, and the dedicated AF staff who attended (Warning: when I showed some pictures to the flight crew on the way back, they've recognized not only some staff but also some flyertalkers... so be aware, they KNOW WHO YOU ARE)

Remember, I won a world tour in P for two. :D:D
Do you want a Servair Thermos instead ? :D

so be aware, they KNOW WHO YOU ARE)

didn't you see the picture gallery with some of our pictures at AF HQ? don't feed these people, please treat them badly, make them misconnect and forget the mileage credit. ;) it's written WANTED on some of them, but that's another story :D

In addition to what has been mentioned already:

renumbering of the gates at the main pier in 2E (-> K gates) and S3 (-> L gates) will take place during the night at the end of May (28th?)
one reason for changing the arrival gate to another terminal is gaining from 5mn to 10mn for short connections
implementing IFUPBC (inspection et filtrage unique des passagers et des bagages cabine), aka no rescreening of passengers connecting from an airport within the Schengen zone, will shorten the transfer time for connecting passengers by 10mn; no decrease in the MCT is contemplated, though.
the length of the airside VAL shuttles connecting 2E, S3 & S4 will increase from 2 to 4 carriages; there will be very large passageways alongside the VAL between S3 and S4, so that passengers can walk back to S3 in case of a complete failure of the VAL; since it opened in 2007, there has been one failure on the airside VAL line and one on the landside line
the future arrivals lounge will have 50 (five-zero) showers
the airside hotel will open late in 2013; it will be located on the upper level of S3, which was originally scheduled to be used as Schengen gates
Air France is reducing its investment in new aircraft for the long-haul fleet by EUR 1.5 billion; part of this decrease will be allocated to improving the premium cabins

it's just for the moment, I work with AF on a rule, I just ask for a little patience. thanks :)

we have the official ok - so you can now publish your airside photos ... the other rule: no single persons or single staff members remains.

and AF marketing and press division will be even more happy if you photoshop the light grey, dirty airplanes and make them spotless white. ;)

the airside hotel will open late in 2013; it will be located on the upper level of S3, which was originally scheduled to be used as Schengen gates

Wow, I didn't hear that. Any other details?

the future arrivals lounge will have 50 (five-zero) showers
Great. Do you know where it will be located? :)

Great. Do you know where it will be located? :)

Somewhere in 2E, but not for 2 or 3 more years. Far too long to worry about it.

...but not for 2 or 3 more years.
What do you mean?
The current one is located Terminal 2C which AF expect to leave in July 2012.
I can't imagine that a new arrival lounge will not be ready for this date :confused:

What do you mean?
The current one is located Terminal 2C which AF expect to leave in July 2012.
I can't imagine that a new arrival lounge will not be ready for this date :confused:

It is AF's intention to keep the arrivals lounge open in 2C until they can build a replacement.

It is AF's intention to keep the arrivals lounge open in 2C until they can build a replacement.

Yes, AF realizes this is far from optimal, but they apparently cannot change that state of affairs for some years.

I think Servair could offer "La premiere" meals for every day of the rest of our lives:

exiting an A380, with our very precious SERVAIR bag !!! ;)


Thank you Christian, Jacques, ... and all AF, ADP and Servair staff for your great job!
may I add: we had a very good dinner thursday evening ^

Somewhere in 2E, but not for 2 or 3 more years. Far too long to worry about it.
With nicolas75, we figured that "L'ecole des escales" spot in 2E is an enormous space that could be a nice Arrivals Lounge :)

OK, once again, for the gear-heads...

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With nicolas75, we figured that "L'ecole des escales" spot in 2E is an enormous space that could be a nice Arrivals Lounge :)

That is indeed a very nice suggestion. You would need to do some convincing, though, as 1) L'Ecole des Escales was moved from Le Dome to its current location 2) it does not seem to be in line with current thinking at ground ops.

Warning: when I showed some pictures to the flight crew on the way back, they've recognized not only some staff but also some flyertalkers... so be aware, they KNOW WHO YOU ARE)

If any of you are on Linkedin, check out who has been looking at your profile. A certain someone in AF management was looking at mine recently!

With nicolas75, we figured that "L'ecole des escales" spot in 2E is an enormous space that could be a nice Arrivals Lounge :)

I believe this space should be used for check-in operations. Terminal space is precious, so it seems very odd to me to use it for "office type operations". Especially when you think about AF leaving 2C and transferring all non-Schengen ops to 2E, they will need some more space there.

I believe this space should be used for check-in operations. Terminal space is precious, so it seems very odd to me to use it for "office type operations". Especially when you think about AF leaving 2C and transferring all non-Schengen ops to 2E, they will need some more space there.

I raised this point during dinner with very senior representatives from ground ops. It is believed that, due to the development of Internet check-in & kiosks since 2E opened, close to a decade ago, the 156 check-in counters originally planned will not all be needed. BTW, I also raised the issue of arriving passenger capacity vs number of baggage carousels for the 2E/S3/S4 combination.

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AF84 ready for departure for SFO

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do we know who he is? yes we do :D

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Delta Kryptonium :p

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AF12 bound for JFK

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ready for push-back

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she promised me I'll get the interiour pics to post them here, too :)

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our newest forum member :)

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thanks sophiesxb for sharing these pics with us :) ^

Great pics Chrissxb!

Fantastic photos !! :)

Super pics ^
Thank you Chrissxb and sophiesxb

Thank you Chrissxb and sophiesxb

paging fredsxb.

Any resemblance in these flyertalk handles is purely coincidental. ;)

Thanks for the pics chrissxb. Is stimpy allowed to post the pictures of our group?

Thanks for the pics chrissxb. Is stimpy allowed to post the pictures of our group?

I wil post mines when back from Manila

I wil post mines when back from Manila
I hope you don't have pics from JOUY31's infamous "champagne" room at the Hyatt :D

I hope you don't have pics from JOUY31's infamous "champagne" room at the Hyatt :D

Those are censored :D

A "champagne room"? Wich one? I don't remember...!! :)

Making it somewhat easier to visualize, here are some pictures:
- http://www.kvermaat.eu/AF/

Journée “vis ma vie” avec un Chef d’Escale de Permanence. (spend a day with a Station manager)
goldorak
jenbel
hugolover

flightsimulator
gajan
Christian-SN
Henry III

Air France Maintenance
dollelleth
Nicolas75
bankops

spend a day at the CCHUB
gplates

50 000 Flying Blue miles
ixs

all attendees will get 4000miles on their account as a thank you for participating in this DO.

All winners need to contact me for the date (valid until May 1st 2013, not in July/August) You need to fly to CDG on your own dime or use miles.

Journée “vis ma vie” avec un Chef d’Escale de Permanence. (spend a day with a Station manager)
goldorak
jenbel
hugolover

flightsimulator
gajan
Christian-SN
Henry III

Air France Maintenance
dollelleth
Nicolas75
bankops

spend a day at the CCHUB
gplates

50 000 Flying Blue miles
ixs

all attendees will get 4000miles on their account as a thank you for participating in this DO.

All winners need to contact me for the date (valid until May 1st 2013, not in July/August) You need to fly to CDG on your own dime or use miles.
The 4000 miles are a nice gesture of AF. And as we know that you suggested it on the gala last week: thank you.

Thanks "michael9" ! ;)

Awesome shots, I'm sure you have more !?

Those who talked with me, feel free to send me a message, I've forgotten already handles vs. faces and real names :rolleyes:

Making it somewhat easier to visualize, here are some pictures:
- http://www.kvermaat.eu/AF/

Thanks "michael9" ! ;)

Awesome shots, I'm sure you have more !?

Those who talked with me, feel free to send me a message, I've forgotten already handles vs. faces and real names :rolleyes:

Thanks.
I have more and they will be posted in a few days.

I think we all have the same.

Thanks.
I have more and they will be posted in a few days.

I think we all have the same.

maybe instead of the flyertalk facebook page, we should just make a gallery thread? :)

all attendees will get 4000miles on their account as a thank you for participating in this DO.

Haven't received my 4,000 miles yet ... shall I fill in a retroclaim form? :D

-- Henry

Haven't received my 4,000 miles yet ... shall I fill in a retroclaim form? :D

-- Henry

not yet :p

Regarding pictures, there are lots of people taking photos and some of them seem pretty professional. I'm not one of them so we'll have to wait til they post their blogs or whatever to see the pictures.

Regarding the new meals from Guy Martin, everyone has their own taste and all I can tell you is they seemed great to me. In economy class there will be the option to purchase in advance a very nice meal for around €22 or so. This is already being tested on a few routes and will be fully in place system-wide this summer. It looked very nice for economy. We got copies of the new business class menu which someone can hopefully scan and post here later. It seems rather nice.

Regarding wines, I talked with M. Poussier about Burgundy versus Bordeaux and other regions and how I prefer a higher class wine for my €3500 business class ticket. But he explained that they go through something like 30,000 bottles a week (I think) and most producers, especially in Burgundy, cannot support that much business. So the only Burgundy wine they will have is a Maconnais blanc which is ok, but not great. The Bordeaux blanc which we'll see more often is also OK, but completely different. It is from Graves Château Villa Bel-Air. The Bordeaux rouge, 2004 Château Cantemerle en Haut Médoc is a Grande Cru Classe and not bad. The Crozes-Hermitage Les Meysonniers 2008 Syrah was pretty decent too. For Champagne they will serve a Henriot Brut in business class to go with the Henriot Cuvée des Enchanteleurs they currently serve in First class.

I know Poussier and he's quite a walking encyclopedia on wines! he is right in the average production of the Burgundy estates ... the only problems is that foreign airlines manage to get them (BA for instance with a very good to outstanding selection in F)
I assume the budget he has to selct wines for C and F is extremely limited and even so his choices are very questionable. On business long haul the average bottle at wholesale price is around USD 10, possibly closer to 15 for the red Bordeaux which is unacceptable. In First SFO-CDG the champagne was not even a cuvee speciale but a mere Veuve Cliquot 2004 and the white wine the excellent Condrieu from Guigal but the basic one not the La Doriane.
French and wine specialist as I am I am quite ashamed of the selections offered on C and F long haul compared to (no I won't mention Far or Middle East airlines!!) British Airways whose food is also considerably better.

mods, please rename this thread in "the-global-discussion-about-everything-including-BA-and-wines-and-competition-and-we-talk-even-a-little-bit-about-the-topic-of-this-thread-the-cdg-DO"-thread ;)

folks can we please remember the DO - and that there are other threads to discuss the rest? or maybe merge all threads in this forum into a huge one and call it lounge? ;)

So ordered ;) The new thread can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-france-frequence-plus/1343088-comparing-af-ba-product-services.html

So ordered ;) The new thread can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-france-frequence-plus/1343088-comparing-af-ba-product-services.html

It should be mentioned that many of the posts moved to this thread are directly related to the Do, who we spoke to at the Do, and what responses and impressions we had at the Do. I'm not sure why these all were moved, but folks who are interested in the Do should follow this thread too.

If the thread is devoted to topics that were discussed at the DO, then I do not understand why the posts were moved. I though that the DO was an occasion for the larger community of FTers to freely discuss AF projects and participants would provide feedbacks on AF views. Another thread has been devoted for the sole use of the participants and their logistics (maybe that is were discussion about prizes and pictures should go there). Hence I think that a thread open to the whole community and allowing some discussion of the info relayed by participants would be a beneficial contribution of the happy few to the larger community.

Personally, I was interested and surprised to hear that participants at the DO stated that AF regarded BA as number 1. I was happy to read about AF benchmarking attitude. I feel that reports and discussion on how AF sees itself relative to competition is an interesting outcome of the DO. And the community would benefit from contributions of the privileged attendees on these issues raised in the discussions by non-attendees. AF policies remain often hard to understand and information provided by attendees is most interesting although sometimes conflicting. It is useful to have all the discussion about info gathered at the DO in a single thread. In such forums, one might have to tolerate a couple of disgressions and a gentle reminder for refocus is sometimes in order, rather than the typical French habit of controlling/restructuring everything.
But the mods know best even if a bit biased against BA :)

I believe there is a difference between a thread about a live report, mentioning opinions or facts stated by AF staff, or experience of the participants, to discussing every aspect of the comparison between AF & BA products & services.

This has started off a lively discussion and warrants a thread in its own right and participants in the DO have already contributed to it; in addition, there is a link posted to this new thread, which is anything but hidden from sight. Of course, as the discussion has evolved from comments about M. Poussier, some posts could have remained in either of the threads. That's a judgment call I had to make.

Edited to add that I have amended the title of the new thread to reflect the fact that comments at the CDG DO were a starting point.

If you have a question about a moderator action, contact the moderator directly

Making it somewhat easier to visualize, here are all the pictures:
http://www.kvermaat.eu/AF/


http://www.kvermaat.eu/AF1.jpg

This has been a major and long-standing cop-out used by AF management. Union leaders aren't opposed to do more in exchange for a better pay package. Unions are opposed to AF's management decision to ask more of employees without giving anything in exchange, as they should.

Not sure they should, at least not in this way. French unions see their role in optimizing the optimizing the "least effort/max benefits" ratio in the short term, and be it at the expense of their employers, their customers, shareholders, the survival prospects of the company.

In those countries where the social partnership works well the more reasonable unions see their role as being one important stakeholder in the well-being of the company and making sure there is a long-term balance between employees' interests and the prosperity of the company.

AF translates "we don't want to bear the cost of the improvements you ask for" into "the unions are blocking the improvements you ask for".

What the customers says:
"We want a proper full meal service on this route"
What AF tells their employees:
"Do you want to work more for free?"
What the employees answer:
"No. But you could always hire someone to do the added work".
What AF tells their customers:
"Unions are blocking full meal service on this route".

When in reality, it's AF that doesn't want to pay for it. They could tell us "it would cost us too much to implement it". The end result would be the same (no full meal service) but it would be honest instead of always trying to shift the blame on their employees.

I think in situations where unions are negotiating on a level of "we need more people to serve trays of cold food instead of small boxes of food" (to give only one example) one may indeed talk of a blocking attitude. Moreover it is of course the unions' rights to close their eyes in front of the gaping differences in productivity between their airline and others and reject any attempts by the company to increase productivity. But if they make that choice then they also have to live with accusations of refusing to hinder any transformation. I believe it is fair to say that AF has less room for manoeuvre than other airlines because of its unions.

Not sure they should, at least not in this way. French unions see their role in optimizing the optimizing the "least effort/max benefits" ratio in the short term, and be it at the expense of their employers, their customers, shareholders, the survival prospects of the company.

AF's management has given a signal that short-term cost-cutting is a great strategy to follow even if it's detrimental to the company in the long term. Why should the employees selflessly offer to do more without compensation exactly? Saving jobs should be a goal, and the only reason for them to care about the survival of the company, but I can understand them if they think it won't improve the survivability of the airline as long as the management lacks any kind of vision... In the meantime, one bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.


I think in situations where unions are negotiating on a level of "we need more people to serve trays of cold food instead of small boxes of food" (to give only one example) one may indeed talk of a blocking attitude.

Indeed. We could also ignore this as an oversimplification by AF's management and not talk about a blocking attitude. I am not part of AF's labour negociations and I don't know the truth and the extend of what was asked for and what was proposed to judge which side was acting reasonably in the bargaining.

I don't trust any side of the negociation and... I don't care.

I don't care why AF can't serve better wine, deliver better service, or have a decent lounge at certain outstations. As a customer, I select the best offer available to me. The purpose of this do is to make sure AF hears (and ideally listen to) what we collectively think should be improved. I care about the enhancements they'll be able to implement, and I will reassess my opinion of their product based on that. Marginally, I am interested in realistic explanations about why they aren't able to implement something, or a timetable for improvement. I have no interest in their internal negociations: "knowing" the union are blocking, say, a full meal service on shorter flight won't make me fly AF more (out of sympathy for the poor CEO?) than not knowing that. Apparently, AF wisened up on this topic.

This said, I agree with you that AF is probably in a worse shape to negociate with their employees than other airlines and it should lower our expectations about the feasability of some improvements. What irks me is hearing that from the management, which wasn't the case as stimpy clarified.

Dear Flyertalkers,
As promised, here are the pictures of our great Air France & ADP DO

Mainly: CCHub central hub operations centre, Servair catering operations, sommelier, chefs and the new menus, central AF Headquarters, CEO, training center, and joyful Flyertalkers;-)

Enjoy!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/78021884@N03/7004054466/in/photostream/

Dear Flyertalkers,
the new menus
Somthing which I still dont understand: Is there only a new chef-signature dish or a complete new Affaires-Menu?

In a press map from January it says:
"The creations of each chef in turn are featured for six months among the four main meals offered on the menu."

So I think there is now whole new Affaires-Menu!?

Somthing which I still dont understand: Is there only a new chef-signature dish or a complete new Affaires-Menu?

In a press map from January it says:
"The creations of each chef in turn are featured for six months among the four main meals offered on the menu."

So I think there is now whole new Affaires-Menu!?

What you can see on pictures are à la carte menus you can order in advance (for economy class) and some of the dishes of the new menu by Guy Martin.

Nice pics Nicolas, thanks ^

Somthing which I still dont understand: Is there only a new chef-signature dish or a complete new Affaires-Menu?

In a press map from January it says:
"The creations of each chef in turn are featured for six months among the four main meals offered on the menu."

So I think there is now whole new Affaires-Menu!?

I did ask about the rotation / changing of business class menus (http://www.airfrance.co.uk/GB/en/common/guidevoyageur/classeetconfort/affaires_restauration_airfrance.htm), but unfortunately I didn’t note down all the details. Someone who travels AF long-haul in J more often than I do can probably provide further insights...

However, as I understand it:

Only the outbound (ex-CDG) meals are prepared by Servair in Paris, and hence only those meals have the chef-signature dishes, etc. The inbound meals are prepared at the relevant outstation, and so are different. (For example, in Servair Paris we saw JAL meals being prepared, for JAL flights returning from Paris to Tokyo).

Air France have a different chef every 6 months. I am not sure if this chef does all 4 main course dishes on the menu, or just one (although on the current menu, only one is a Joël Rubuchon signature). The main course options rotate every 10 days. We got to sample 4 of the (excellent, I must say) dishes from the new menu, prepared by Guy Martin – I had assumed that all 4 of these would be offered on the same menu (they seemed to complement each other quite well), but perhaps I was mistaken about that.

The appetiser changes every month, I think. I am not sure how often the amuse-bouche and desserts change. (Did someone mention that we also got to try to the First Class desserts? :) )

On board, most of the menu is printed as a booklet, while the 4 main course options are a separate insert (presumably because the main courses rotate more frequently than the rest of the menu). The design of the menu booklets is also about to be changed, to be more colourful.


We also saw the 3 A la Carte meals (http://www.airfrance.co.uk/GB/en/common/resainfovol/achat/menu_a_la_carte.htm) Air France have recently introduced as a book-in-advance paid option in Voyageur and Premium Voyageur (similar to the concept offered by KLM). The options are ‘Tradition’ (traditional French food), ‘Bio’ (organic), and ‘Lenôtre’. Obviously, the regular economy meal options remain available, for people who don’t want the A la Carte option. For the moment, the A la Carte options are only available on a few routes (I think one in each of the key market areas), in order to gauge customer feedback and check production capacity before scaling up. However, it seems initial response has been positive, so these options should become available on other routes in future. (Presumably only ex-CDG though).

In the pictures, on one table there is are the Y/Y+ A la Carte meals, the current Affaires appetiser, and the current (Jöel Rubuchon) Affaires main courses. The food actually being served and eaten in the pictures are the future Guy Martin Affaires main courses.

I flew out of CDG in long-haul J a few days after the DO, and it was fun to have on the plane the various menu items we’d seen / tried on the ground (apart from the Guy Martin dishes of course – need to wait a few more weeks for those...)

Another interesting insight (regarding economy, not sure about other classes): apparently they only load on to the plane the exact number of meal trays needed, and around +10% of the required main course dishes (presumably to try to ensure that everyone still has a choice of meal, and to cover for any wastage).

Someone also mentioned the challenge of getting the right catering on to the plane, especially when the passenger list is being finalised at the last minute (due to no-shows, delayed connections, late check-ins, etc) – it’s no good telling someone “you’re on the flight – but sorry we don’t have any food for you”. So, if a late arriving passenger is going to be allowed to board, there has to be a meal onboard for them as well.

Great pics Nicolas !! Thanks for having posted them :) It's just as if we were again in CDG !

@KQ231: Thank you! ^

Servair newsletter (http://www.servair.fr/e-letter/connect11/)

Air France listens to its customers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9X_9nD_hX4)

Some additional snippets of information from our session with Flying Blue, which I don't think have been mentioned elsewhere yet...

Contact
They recognise that Flying Blue has been hard to reach in the past. So, as an initial step they will soon be extending the opening hours of all the FB contact centres. (I forget the exact times/days - maybe someone else can remember?)

As there are FB contact centres around the globe (Ivry-Sur-Seine, Kitchener, Sydney, Guangzhou, etc), we discussed whether out-of-hours phone-calls in one country could be re-routed to another centre that was still open. It seems this isn't possible yet (for technical, language and perhaps other reasons). However, it is always possible to do this yourself - just look at the list of contact centres (https://www.klm.com/travel/gb_en/flying_blue/welcome_to_flying_blue/contact_flying_blue/index.htm), and find one which is open at the right time... Incidentally, the contact centre in Nairobi (http://www.kenya-airways.com/Home/Customer_Care/Contact_Us/Kenya/Kenya_Contact_Details/) is already open 24/7, and has a proper email address, which is generally answered promptly...

Retro-Claims
They also acknowledged frustrations around difficult retro-claims. Retro-claims for AF/KL-operated flights can already be processed online (as FB have direct access to the relevant reservations computer) but all other retro-claims have to be sent to the relevant partner to confirm the travel/purchase/etc (as FB can't access this information directly).

However, they are about to introduce an online submission system for retro-claims, so you will be able to scan the relevant documentation, and submit online (or via email?), to save having to print/photo-copy and post all the paperwork.

Interestingly, FB in Europe cannot directly process retro-claims for KQ, but the FB contact centre in Nairobi can (as it has direct access to the KQ reservations computer) - so retro-claims for KQ-operated flights may be best handled over email with the Nairobi contact centre.

Appeared on my FB account today:

27-04-2012 FT MEETING BONUS 4000

:)^

-- Henry

Has anyone tried to organise their prize yet? Did you get the dates you wanted?

Appeared on my FB account today:

27-04-2012 FT MEETING BONUS 4000

:)^

-- Henry

Same here :)

Has anyone tried to organise their prize yet? Did you get the dates you wanted?

I have not e-mailed Chris - thank you for the reminder :)

Has anyone tried to organise their prize yet? Did you get the dates you wanted?

I got the miles prize and according to Chris they should appear in my account...

Got the 4k today (thanks AF) but no 50k yet.

No 4k yet for me :(

No 4k yet for me :(

Mine are there (thanks FB and chrissxb!) - but they're dated 27th April (not unreasonably), so I had to scroll down past all my subsequent flights, in order to see them.

Mine are there (thanks FB and chrissxb!) - but they're dated 27th April (not unreasonably), so I had to scroll down past all my subsequent flights, in order to see them.

Yes, the new site appears defaults to one month for me, so I had to select the entire year to see the Flyertalk miles.

Appeared on my FB account today:

27-04-2012 FT MEETING BONUS 4000

:)^

-- Henry

Same here :). Merci, Air France!

Appeared on my FB account today:

27-04-2012 FT MEETING BONUS 4000

:)^

-- Henry

Me too :)
Thank you Air France ^

Yes, the new site appears defaults to one month for me, so I had to select the entire year to see the Flyertalk miles.

Tried that but nothing. :( Perhaps I was too critical during the FB session.

I forgot to say that May 20th or thereabouts there is going to be a big announcement from the head of AF marketing. I think FB related. Maybe someone else here knows more than me because I had a bit of wine before he mentioned this. ;)

Well the prediction was true, if not the date. I had mentioned to the AF Marketing chief that the fuel surcharges on short haul economy awards were ridiculous and he said that he was going to make an announcement about improvements there. He didn't say anything about raising the price for business class, but we were only discussing economy.

Journée “vis ma vie” avec un Chef d’Escale de Permanence. (spend a day with a Station manager)
goldorak
jenbel
hugolover

flightsimulator
gajan
Christian-SN
Henry III

Air France Maintenance
dollelleth
Nicolas75
bankops

spend a day at the CCHUB
gplates

50 000 Flying Blue miles
ixs

all attendees will get 4000miles on their account as a thank you for participating in this DO.

All winners need to contact me for the date (valid until May 1st 2013, not in July/August) You need to fly to CDG on your own dime or use miles.

friendly reminder. :)
noone contacted me so far ... didn't you like, what you won?

If anyone doesn't want to, or cannot, do their event, I'll take it!

If anyone doesn't want to, or cannot, do their event, I'll take it!

I am willing to sacrifice myself as well ;)

If needed, I'm also ready to sacrifice myself :rolleyes:

And thanks Air France for the 4000 miles on the FB account :)

I will be taking mine, but most likely in Q4 during MR season. Gives me an excuse to overnight somewhere that the wife will accept.

I will contact you shortly, have to plan which date I would be available.

Is it possible to get a time frame of the programme so we can estimate what time we need to arrive and depart (and if it is necessary to book hotel etc)?

Gajan

it's a day. a day as in from morning until evening. a day as in working day. not starting at 5am - not ending at 10pm. I guess no hotel is needed,

the rest will be negotiated individually, you set the time frame, I guess morning inbound and evening outbound is ok.

•Sautéed shrimp, pasta shells and zucchini caviar, coconut sauce enhanced by Espelette chili pepper by Guy Martin.

Air France Promo Pic:
http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/shrimpspwxnyroh21.png (http://www.fotos-hochladen.net)

In-Flight:
http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/201206121878719o5ukjd.jpg (http://www.fotos-hochladen.net)

Yes, it was tasty, but the Design of the Food is poor.

•Sautéed shrimp, pasta shells and zucchini caviar, coconut sauce enhanced by Espelette chili pepper by Guy Martin.

Air France Promo Pic:
http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/shrimpspwxnyroh21.png (http://www.fotos-hochladen.net)

In-Flight:
http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/201206121878719o5ukjd.jpg (http://www.fotos-hochladen.net)

Yes, it was tasty, but the Design of the Food is poor.

This may demonstrate how the promo pics are made to show the product in best possible way!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSd0keSj2W8

Currently at T2E, and just saw our host/guide at Accès Numéro 1 (escorting someone in the Première Lane).

I was one of the lucky guy to win a very nice gift during the DO dinner last april : to spend a day with stations managers at CDG :-::-::-::-::-:.
I contacted Chrissxb, who’s making the link with AF, and gave him several possible dates for me. Everything was rapidly organized after having found a date suitable for everybody.

I was welcomed by Nicolas (our great host during the DO :)) at CDG2E at 6 :15 am (parking at 2E was very easy at that time :p). I was surprised to learn that, 6 months after the DO, I was the 1st one to use my gift. For you guys who earned a prize, hurry-up, only 6 months remaining and time is passing very quickly ! Don’t waste this unique chance. You can imagine how wonderful this day has been for me.

First step was to stop at police station (PAF) to obtain a CDG badge in exchange of my I.D. This badge allows you to access the sterile zone but only being accompanied at all time by your reference person (Nicolas in my case). This is checked everytime you pass security.

Then I was introduced to the different Duty Station Managers I will spend time with during the day. All of them had a long experience working at AF at various positions at CDG and in other stations in France, from sales to operations. Their huge experiences made discussions very interesting. Of course, I won’t be able to tell everything here but I learned a lot from them and from my main host Nicolas, and I tried also to give them some insight of a (very) frequent flyer. What I can tell you is that I was introduced to many people during this day and always by my name followed by « one of our best customer ». Nice touch :). I retrieved the same ambiance/feelings as during the DO : fully dedicated and competent people, passion for their work and their airline, doing their best to have everything working well, and happy to share a small part of their daily life with me ^.

With my 1st mentor of the day, we started by a welcomed breakfast at one of the AF/ADP staff restaurant. The duty Station Managers in the morning are taking their shift very early (like 5 am), so breakfast break is mandatory ! He told me that the day will be busy with 111,000 pax scheduled He explained me the different hub banks at CDG called P1 to P5. P1 is the flight bank leaving from 7 to 8 :30 am, P2 the one at 10 :30 am (the busiest bank), P3 is the 1 :00 – 2 :00 pm one, P4 is the 5 to 7:00 pm one and P5 is the 11 pm one. So we were right during the P1 wave and he told me that everything looked fine at the moment, but he was worrying because of a problem with the ADP IT system for assistance to handicapped pax. So delay in wheelchair assistance would be likely and this could delay some flights. For AF operations at CDG, you will be interested to know that there is an average of 500 wheelchair demands per day. That’s a lot ! So we moved airside to K gates for boarding operations of AF022 to JFK (A332). I had plenty of explanations about timing of various operations (luggage loading, role of Securitas staff, safety procedures, passenger manifest draft and final, how the station manager decides to delay or not a flight if connecting pax are late, etc). Despite a full flight, boarding was completed in due time and flight was pushed-back perfectly on-time. Already at that time, I was realizing how stressful the job of station manager was. His phone was ringing every 2 minutes. Sometimes for minor things but often for problems that have to be solved very quickly. He told me that after a day spent over the phone, there ‘s no more phone calls back at home after work. I understand this !
Then we came back landside to check-in counters (Sky Priority and Y) to look after check-in operations (we were behind the counters, so behind the computer screens). It was interesting for me to see what kind of information the Agent has on his/her screen. The flight the pax is checking-in on can be labelled as green (no overbooking), orange (low/mild overbooking) or red (heavily overbooked – solutions to be found !!!). So, at that time, everything looked under control but this was the calm before the storm…

It was 9 :15 am (so we were between P1 and P2) and the terminal was becoming very busy and one of the most annoying daily problem at CDG started : an unattended bag :td: at the café right in front of the relais H and pharmacy in the middle of 2E (so just in front of the passport control booths). So the usual mess begun : evacuation of hundreds of pax and wait for demining team (who is not based at CDG – it took them 20 min to arrive). The station manager was communicating with his team airside to let them know that most check-in operations were stopped, and that passport control was closed as well, so that it was needed to delay flights because obviously many pax were blocked landside). He had also the info that 95% of P2 pax were checked-in when the mess begun. He told me how AF and ADP staff were pissed of this, because it’s happening every single day and causing a lot of disruptions and cost a lot of money to AF. But their « anger » is also because the police never never fines the responsible pax (normally you risk a 750 Euros fine), even if there is a name/address on the bag. This kind of mistake can of course happen to anybody, but once you’ve been fined 750 E, you think about your bags next time. When the zone was cleared and open again, this was total chaos at immigration, as you can imagine (but I want to point out that all police booths (17) were staffed. There’s hope !!!). We helped a woman with his blind father flying to OTP to give them priority for immigration, as their flight was boarding very soon. AF is well aware of the saturation of infrastructures at 2E and they are working on this with ADP. You'll be surely interested to learn that the "Ecole des escales", located at the far left of the terminal, will be destroyed to make some more check-in counters. Obviously a good decision, but it will take some time of course.

So we went back airside, left my first host (who gave me a call later during the day to tell me how nice it has been and hoping that I had a nice day :)), reached S4 where I met with my 2nd host on the Lisa train quay. The initial plan was to assist to boarding operations of the A388 to LAX but unfortunately, we lost a lot of time because of the unattended bag, so when I arrived at the gate, boarding was 90% completed. But there was a bunch of problems to notice, like 2 pax not having ESTA :eek: (incredible but true). About this, I learned that, if you don’t have ESTA or if not updated, you are not blocked at check-in but at boarding. It should be the opposite IMO to have time to solve everything before boarding. So these 2 pax were doing their ESTA on the AF staff computers at the boarding gate !!! There was also an AF flight to Africa with a VIP from the Dutch government flying with his bodyguards. We followed also the boarding operations of a flight to ATL and to BOM (it’s a small world, as in the line of people boarding to BOM, I saw somebody I know – I discussed briefly with him and he was really wondering what I was doing here wearing a CDG badge and witnessing operations :D). I had some explanations on the computer about cabin maps, blocked seats, etc. It was also good to see again the brand new and very nice S4 (although I was there twice as a pax during the 2 previous weeks).

It was close to 11 :30 and it was decided to go back to 2F to have lunch. So, an early lunch because the next plan was to go to S3 to work on AF276 to NRT (A388), so it was required to arrive at the gate 1 hr before departure (1 :30 pm so to arrive at 12 :30). Why 2F for lunch ? Because, according to Nicolas, the staff restaurant has better food there than in 2E (it’s true it was good) !

12:20 pm : time to go back to 2E-S3 (L gates). My 2 last hosts of the day were waiting for me at the gate. One would take care of me at the gate, while the other will bring me on the tarmac. Boarding of AF276 to NRT was about to start. Another A388 today ;) (my favourite plane). I was explained that now in S3, the front jetway (leading to door 1L) is connected but closed and used only for staff and P pax when they arrive from the lounge by limousine. This is of course to avoid to disturb P pax but also to preserve the P cabin of markings and damages due to luggages of pax passing through to reach Y. As I was « a staff member » this day ;), I was bring in the plane by this jetway and introduced to the crew present at the front. This A380 was equipped with the « last » version of the P seat (the slightly revamped seat that has a different colour than the previous one). The cockpit door was open but the pilots looked very busy preparing their flight, so we didn’t disturb them. Interestingly, as the door was open, I was able to have a quick look at the pilot rest room, which is right behind the cockpit. It’s a very small room with a bed and a seat. Otherwise, as I was knowing quite well this plane (I already flown AF A380 16 times), we didn’t stay too long and went back to the terminal. It was time to go on the tarmac. I was given the yellow fluo jacket and some security shoes. So it was as during the DO, but this time I was alone with my guide ! We’ve been in the front and rear cargo area, looked at the loading of « AKE carts » from inside the belly and on the platform. We made also a visit in the small and cramped rear zone where crew bags and newspaper are stored in « vrac ». Interestingly, this area contains also a tow bar. This is in case the plane has to land in an airport not having the special tow trucks for the A380. During the DO, I was in an A340 and I think the A380 cargo area is not bigger than the A340. I saw all the late bags arriving from different places (connecting pax). Every bag is scanned and should received the approval of the system to be loaded (this day, one bag at the end was refused and was bring back to the terminal). The belly of the monster was full full full this day (2 cargo pallets and the rest in bags). We walked under the belly (which is very low : if you are tall, I think you can’t stay completely stand-up at the lowest point), watched the landing gears, engines, discussed with the refueling person (it takes 1 hr to fuel completely the A380). The flight was running a little bit late due to the last bags loading but about 15 min after scheduled time, the flight was ready for push-back. I was in the tow truck for push-back and watched the operation which is of course very impressive.

Back to the gate, and around 2 :30 pm, my day at CDG was unfortunately over :( and it was time to say good bye to everybody. We returned to the PAF to give my badge back. I had, as you can imagine, a wonderful day thanks to AF people, but also thanks to Flyertalk and particularly Chrissxb ^:). I have now a much better understanding of what they have to handle on a daily basis and I will be surely more indulgent when problems happen.

So congratulations and thank you to AF to have made this possible, with a special mention to Nicolas ;).

Great report Goldorak!! I hope this spurs the other winners to use their prizes ASAP or at least pass one on to me! :D

That's a fabulous and thrilling report Goldorak! You truly manage to convey the excitement and emotion of the day! And you are right, chrissxb did a fabulous job securing those wonderful awards and Nicolas has been a wonderful AF insider for us all.

I love the information about the 'red light' signage for overbooking for check in agents. I never knew that this was the way that they are informed although I wish you had had a 'red' flight to see how the station managers effectively deal with them! :) The story of the bomb alert is indeed far too chronically experienced by all of us but it is fascinating to see how this is lived by the AF people, especially when, as you say, it happens as most of the passengers have checked in and the flights could have 'almost' been clear to go!

And indeed, fascinating stuff about ESTA too. Could you tell us how it worked? Did the staff already have a list of people without ESTA at boarding? Or did they have to check something? I understand your saying that it would be better if this could be sorted at check in but unfortunately, I don't think that this is technically possible: bear in mind that many passengers will have arrived from connecting flights on other airlines, many of which may not know or care about the ESTA situation as systems are not fully integrated. They may be able to get boarding passes through transit desks which may not get that information either or have the means to check it (there is always a chance that someone who appears as not having an ESTA may in fact, have a second passport which allowed him/her to travel or a visa). So I think that ultimately, most airlines probably have to check both at check in and at boarding.

Anyway, back to the key point which is to thank you for the fantastic report!! ^

I was welcomed by Nicolas (our great host during the DO :)) at CDG2E at 6 :15

That is much too late to experience the beginning of a CDG hard day :D:D

(hope the maintenance day begins slightly later, or I will regret not have won a Servair thermos ;))

Great report!

What a great report! Thanks Goldorak! Anyone want to swap their uncollected prize for my thermos?

Great report Goldorak!! I hope this spurs the other winners to use their prizes ASAP or at least pass one on to me! :D

That's a fabulous and thrilling report Goldorak! You truly manage to convey the excitement and emotion of the day!

Great report!

What a great report! Thanks Goldorak! Anyone want to swap their uncollected prize for my thermos?
Thanks a lot guys for your nice comments :)

That is much too late to experience the beginning of a CDG hard day :D:D
(hope the maintenance day begins slightly later, or I will regret not have won a Servair thermos ;))
In fact it was supposed to start much earlier (around 5:00 am :eek:), but the day before, I received a text message from Nicolas to postpone to 6:15. To be honest, I was happy about the change ;)
Otherwise, if it's too early for you, I'm sure Olivedel will be very happy to exchange his Servair thermos with your prize :p:D

And indeed, fascinating stuff about ESTA too. Could you tell us how it worked? Did the staff already have a list of people without ESTA at boarding? Or did they have to check something? I understand your saying that it would be better if this could be sorted at check in but unfortunately, I don't think that this is technically possible: bear in mind that many passengers will have arrived from connecting flights on other airlines, many of which may not know or care about the ESTA situation as systems are not fully integrated. They may be able to get boarding passes through transit desks which may not get that information either or have the means to check it (there is always a chance that someone who appears as not having an ESTA may in fact, have a second passport which allowed him/her to travel or a visa). So I think that ultimately, most airlines probably have to check both at check in and at boarding.
You are correct, it should be difficult to sort this out at check-in. When we arrived at the gate, the duty station manager was advised of the pb by one of the boarding agent. The 2 pax were doing their ESTA on the computers of the staff at the boarding gate (the ones where you scan your BP to board). It was funny to see this and there were some "controversy" among staff members about if pax should be allowed to use these computers for this. It's true that it is quite debatable. I think everything was fine at the end and that those pax were cleared to board.

My compliments with agreat report. It was a pleasure reading it.

In fact it was supposed to start much earlier (around 5:00 am :eek:), but the day before, I received a text message from Nicolas to postpone to 6:15. To be honest, I was happy about the change ;)
Otherwise, if it's too early for you, I'm sure Olivedel will be very happy to exchange his Servair thermos with your prize :p:D.
I don't own this Thermos anymore. It has a great value on the black market : I exchanged it with 3 Sodexho pins :D

Thank You Goldorak for this Great Report

Thanks for sharing this once-in-a-lifetime experience! Interesting to see the check-in agents can view the overbooking level of a flight. I'm wondering if they have discretion on who to ask for volounterring or if the system generates a list of potential volounteers, depending on status, fare paid, etc.?

Thank you Goldorak for having shared with us this wonderful and so much interesting day !!
Hope you all who won a prize will also share with us these incredible once in a lifetime experiences :)

Thank you Goldorak for having shared with us this wonderful and so much interesting day !!
Hope you all who won a prize will also share with us these incredible once in a lifetime experiences :)

Thank you Sophiesxb ;)

I will be doing my simulator ride soon and will post some photos and a brief review here too is possible :)

EDIT: a small reminder for those who have not made an appointment for your prize, a year is nearly up!

I haven't had the chance yet but I will be arranging my prize before the deadline :)

I wrote to chrissxb about booking my prize day but I've had no reply. Who can I get in touch with regarding it?

I wrote to chrissxb about booking my prize day but I've had no reply. Who can I get in touch with regarding it?

I would send him another email:)

Chris is a teacher and it is the middle of school holiday time in his region of France. I would try JOUY31

Chris is a teacher and it is the middle of school holiday time in his region of France. I would try JOUY31

Is he not on holiday (judging by his Facebook;))?

Will do. Thanks.

Any other prize report to share here ?
I don't believe I'm the only one to have used my prize, 2 months before the deadline :)

Will do. Thanks.

I had Chris on the phone. He has forwarded all the information he has to AF contacts. He requests that you send him an e-mail with your real-world name in addition to your FlyerTalk handle.

Thanks for your help ;)

Any other prize report to share here ?
I don't believe I'm the only one to have used my prize, 2 months before the deadline :)

I had my simulator ride in January. Plan is to write a report up shortly :)

I had my simulator ride in January. Plan is to write a report up shortly :)

Can't wait ;)

Any other prize report to share here ?
I don't believe I'm the only one to have used my prize, 2 months before the deadline :)

I haven't found a opportunity to use the thermos yet, that's certain :D

I haven't heard anything from chrissxb. As we might be having some technical problems, can I kindly ask he check his FT account for my PM because email doesn't seem to be working. Thank you :)

I haven't heard anything from chrissxb. As we might be having some technical problems, can I kindly ask he check his FT account for my PM because email doesn't seem to be working. Thank you :)

I am alive and waiting for answer from AF. but there's winter holidays in Paris area so everyone is not always in office. sorry.

I was lucky at the last do to win a visit of the maintenance. Here is my report of this very nice day.


We were greeted by Nicolas Herson Macarel and one of his colleague, then we headed towards the building of the maintenance of the Airbus A380.

The visit was carried out by the maintenance manager of the A380, both modest and really passionate about his job. It was a real pleasure to speak freely with him and share his passion for his job.


The building is brand new and was built specifically for the A380. The architecture is neat and it is far from a conventional industrial building.

Suffice to say that everything is the size of the Big bird: an impressive high ceiling, very large doors. The building is bright and of course perfectly clean.

The building can only receive one A380 at a time, possibly with by two smaller aircrafts.

The building was designed so that the equipment is readily available, and thus avoid airplane movement.

To prevent any birds, the sound of birds of prey is played through the building (we have the feeling to be in a huge aviary). This obviously can be painful for people who work in the building.

To ensure the cooling of electronic systems of the aircraft (which would lead to an unbearable temperature of the cabin), the aircraft is cooled during maintenance operations.


The routine maintenance operations last about a week and are conducted every 40 days of flight.

It is not only the mechanical and electronic parts, but also the cabin of the aircraft to be maintained.

The maintenance issue is how to make all the necessary operations, while fully respecting the time (an AOG is expensive) and mastering replacement costs.


We had the chance to board the A380, and of course visit the passenger spaces, but also the cockpit, cabin crew bunks beds.

The maintenance manager told us the price of certain items (electronics, for example) which is stratospheric. Even a seat armrest of a Business seat costs a little fortune. And any misconception of the seat entails higher maintenance costs.

The First Class seats are protected during maintenance and are systematically monitored. Luxury is a requirement at all times. ;)


This morning was really exciting. A big thank you to all the Air France team for their availability and their shared passion! ^^

PS: Thanks to this visit, I FINALLY know why the intensity of the cabin light is reduced for takeoff and landing: as fire is the fear of any captain, it is easier in the dark to see any possible event of fire.

Thank you for your Report!
Why are the seats „systematically monitored”? What is so special about the La Premiere Seats?!

Thank you for your Report!
Why are the seats „systematically monitored”? What is so special about the La Premiere Seats?!

Just to make sure everything works perfectly well.

Just to make sure everything works perfectly well.

makes sense. :)

Thanks for the report. It's great that you can appreciate the hard work of others.

Thank you Nicolas75. It's great to read those reports post-DO :). Already more than a year ago...:(

PS: Thanks to this visit, I FINALLY know why the intensity of the cabin light is reduced for takeoff and landing: as fire is the fear of any captain, it is easier in the dark to see any possible event of fire.

Heard many times by the crew that it was to prevent the black hole impression when exiting the aircraft in an emergency.

If the cabin lights are dimmed, the passenger eyes have acustomed themselves to darkness and the pax do not have the fear of jumping into the unknown, so the evacuation goes faster.

Heard many times by the crew that it was to prevent the black hole impression when exiting the aircraft in an emergency.

If the cabin lights are dimmed, the passenger eyes have acustomed themselves to darkness and the pax do not have the fear of jumping into the unknown, so the evacuation goes faster.

That's also the reason I was aware of.