European Rail Travel - Newbie Advice - Brussels- Paris -Amsterdam-Brussels - August 3-7 4 days by

Looking for advice and suggestions from experts here. Apologize for this long post with many questions.

I have read posts on various travel forums/websites including this forum researched different railway sites but still not getting a firm feel about what our itinerary should look like given our particular constraints below.

Children are decent travelers. Been on several long haul flights since they were about 5 months old. No worries there.

So taking the family consisting of wife and 2 boys 12 and 7 - all vegetarians on a 4 day visit in Continental Europe in first week of August

Can speak only English but can read French

What is confirmed is this:

Arriving by United on 3rd August IAD - BRU
4 days stop over in Belgium and nearby country/city
Leaving for India BRU-FRA-MAA on 7th August.
Do not want to drive in Europe being a first timer
Life long fan of train travel so would not want to miss the opportunity to travel the high speed european trains in contrast to what passes for train service in the US.

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Learnings:

Switzerland - Zurich seems complicated to get to or too time consuming or too expensive from Brussels.

Given I have 4 days it seems I can with some planning easily do both Paris and Amsterdam in those 4 days. come back to vicinity of Brussels airport by 4th night and take the flight out next morning

That is all our vacation plans have room for.


Questions:

Is the 90 day advance discounted restrictive Thalys ticket the way to go. Can I book in the US and still be it an electronic ticket. Seems I have to do some nifty maneuvering based on what I have read in this forum to make that work.

Like in place is there a multi city option - could I do say Brussels to Paris to Amsterdam to Brussels as a multi city itinerary.

I am thinking 2 days in Paris a day and half in Amsterdam or somewhere in the Netherlands and return to Brussels by the 4th night.

Thinking of landing at BRU, immediately taking the train to Paris, from there to Netherlands and then back to Brussels
Considering Sheraton hotel at BRU for that last night.

Looks like the earliest I can book the train tickets is 90 days out on websites such as Thalys, SNCB, SNCF etc.

Any suggestions /tips will be appreciated.

Thanks

Hari

If you're only there for four days, I'd say all three cities is far too much to pack in. If I were you I'd choose one of Paris and Amsterdam (say Paris), and leave the other one for another time. There isn't as much to see in Brussels as in either, but as you're there, you might as well make the most of it.

So when you arrive in Brussels (presumably in the morning), check in to a city centre hotel (I can recommend the Radisson Blu Royal, right next to the Central station which is connected directly to the airport by a local train), and wander around the historic centre which is right there. Have a good meal and get used to European time zone. Then maybe the next morning get the Thalys to Paris where you will have more than enough to do for three days; then back to Brussels.

It's easy to overdo the travelling and spend so much time travelling from A to B that you never see much of either A or B.

Thank you BAAZ . Will consider these suggestions when finalizing our plan.
Also our flight out of BRU on day5 is at 8 a.m. Are we better off trying to stay next door to the airport - The Airport Sheraton perhaps?
thanks
Hari

Thank you BAAZ . Will consider these suggestions when finalizing our plan.
Also our flight out of BRU on day5 is at 8 a.m. Are we better off trying to stay next door to the airport - The Airport Sheraton perhaps?
thanks
Hari

Probably. Sounds like you should stay 3 and 6 Aug in Brussels and 4 and 5 Aug in Paris. Don't forget by the way that a lot of places are closed in Paris in August. But then there are things there that aren't there for the rest of the year, e.g. the beach (they close the road that runs alongside the river in the city centre, and cover it with a few inches of sand)

If you are really a rail fan, you should consider a trip on the ICE train from Brussels to Frankfurt. In this train, you can sit in a compartment behind the driver and look out to the front. In one direction, this compartment is first class, in the other direction, it is second class. Between Cologne and Frankfurt, the train goes at 300 km/h (or was it even 320 km/h?), and in large parts in parallel to a motorway. Always nice to easily overtake a BMW that is going 200 km/h.

There are two ways to the same coin. I want to present the other side.

Sometimes I prefer to visit a place in depth, but sometimes I skim the highlights only. A few years ago I wanted to take my aging parents to
Europe for the first time. We all knew it would also be the last time for them. I prepared an itinerary that visited 1 or 2 cities in each of 12 countries, only staying more than 2 days in Rome, for the numerous "can't miss" sites.

I did an intensive preparation, bought several guidebooks, prepared detailled itineraries day by day, knew exactaly where I'd board that subway to the museum that would open at X time, knew which pieces I wanted to see in that museum, obviously only the creme de la creme. This way, we maximized how much could be acomplished in a short period of time. Many tourists spend a big portion of a day asking for directions, figuring out which means of transportation will take them there, getting to places that are close for lunch, going in zigzag for lack of geographical logical order, all because of deficiencies in preparation.

At the end of the trip my parents were very happy, because they were able to have a glimpse of many places they had dreamed about all their lives.

My question is, would it be better if we had stayed double time in half places? In our case, definitely not. However, since that time I have returned to visit the cities I liked the most.

My point is, if you can go back next year and do the other city (Paris or Amsterdam), by all means, do a deeper visit to one of them and leave the other one unseen for now. If you feel you may never be back, I feel you can see the highlights in both cities now. Travel between them is too fast to be a problem.

Ah, and by the way, I suggest that on the Belgium day you check just the Gran Place in Brussels, the most beautiful square in the world, a few blocks walk from Gare Central. Then, spend a few hours in Bruges, exactaly 1 hour by train. That will be the highlight of your trip. If you don't know about this place, check Google Images or rent the movie "In Bruges". The old city is compact and can be seen in 3 or 4 hours.

I hope that whatever you choose you'll have a wonderful trip.

Danny

Thanks a lot for the various suggestions.

I have been able to finalize a plan that will work for us. 2 days in Paris 2 days in Geneva (Zurich and Geneva was a toss up) but ended up choosing Geneva for more frequent TGV Connections out of Paris as well as the potential for a day trip into the mountains. All bookings done on Thalys and TGV respectively.

Deliberately chose the Loisir 2 for the Paris-Zurich leg but cost was not too bad. Hotels done in both places. Accor hotels allow family rooms (suites) that allow 4. That entailed some involved search but got that done.

The only remaining portion as several posters have indicated is to plan ahead and what and when we want see/do in those 4 days. I will do it well ahead of time.

I am excited as this would be our first trip in continental Europe.

One last question, in Paris stations as well as in BRU airport would there be any issues with withdrawing Euros from ATMs. I do have a couple of PLUS network debit card/ATM cards. Would it all I would need.

Thanks for all the suggestions

An ATM is the best way to get Euros. The only thing you should do is contact your bank before you leave to make sure your ATM card is enabled for international withdrawals.

It sounds like you are sorted. I take these trains very often and there are always families on holiday. You'll enjoy it. Just relax and watch the countryside sail by.

And there is a great ATM in the BRU baggage hall (by Dexia bank, which has just been renamed to Belfius, so not sure which name will be on the ATM) as you can choose which denominations to get, so I usually get lots of 5- and 10-Euro notes. This is what I need most as I pay by card for larger payments and taxi drivers can be very annoyed when you present them a 50-Euro note for a €12 taxi ride.

A pity you did not choose for Amsterdam but Paris and Geneva are also nice and I guess Amsterdam can easily be visited another time together with Germany :D

You´ll need Swiss Francs in Geneva(there are plenty of ATMs across the city) altough there are also many shops and restaurants who accept euros.

I have been able to finalize a plan that will work for us. 2 days in Paris 2 days in Geneva <...>

I always try to respect other people's choices, but in this case I can't resist reacting. Choosing Genève as a destination during a 4 day trip with BRU as your landing point is just ridiculous, IMHO.
There are so many things to do and to see within a few hundred kilometres from Brussels, and you choose to travel several hours to one of the most boring cities in Europe?!? :confused:

I would spend the entire stopover in hotels in central Brussels. You can spend a whole day in Antwerp and perhaps another in Aachen (Germany). Don't try to pack in too much, especially when you will be jet lagged.

Sometimes I prefer to visit a place in depth, but sometimes I skim the highlights only. A few years ago I wanted to take my aging parents to
Europe for the first time. We all knew it would also be the last time for them. I prepared an itinerary that visited 1 or 2 cities in each of 12 countries, only staying more than 2 days in Rome, for the numerous "can't miss" sites.


I would do these types of tours with a professional tour agency like Rick Steves. They handle all the reservations and planning for you. Then, you can save yourself some time on the preparation part. I think it's a good idea in certain circumstances.

I always try to respect other people's choices, but in this case I can't resist reacting. Choosing Genève as a destination during a 4 day trip with BRU as your landing point is just ridiculous, IMHO.
There are so many things to do and to see within a few hundred kilometres from Brussels, and you choose to travel several hours to one of the most boring cities in Europe?!? :confused:

+1 As someone living in the vicinity of Geneva, it is indeed the most boring city in Europe. But like the OP mentions, one can go on a boat trip on Lac Leman (Geneva Lake) to Lausanne, Evian, Montreux etc. Also the train trip to/from Interlaken from/to Montreux through Zweisimmen is absolutely gorgeous.

I always try to respect other people's choices, but in this case I can't resist reacting. Choosing Genève as a destination during a 4 day trip with BRU as your landing point is just ridiculous, IMHO.
There are so many things to do and to see within a few hundred kilometres from Brussels, and you choose to travel several hours to one of the most boring cities in Europe?!? :confused:

Koby

I understand that you are disappointed that we decided to go all the way to Geneva but it was a thought after decision given our priorities.

a. I read quite a few unfavorable reviews about Brussels itself even though as you said there are plenty of interesting places nearby

b. Paris was a must see for us so we did not want to back track

c. My wife was particular that we cover as many cities/countries in those 4 days. It was the classic dilemma of the tourist, see as many places as you can not so well or savor one or two places well . We chose the former over the latter

d. We consulted our family members who had recently spent time in Belgium as tourists and what they told did not quite appeal to us

e. Switzerland has been on our bucket list for a long time and we just wanted to be able to say we went to Switzerland once. Sounds crazy but so be it. There are tourists of all hues. Call us one of those that belong in the category of let us as much as possible of things even though they may not be perfect. That has worked well for us over the years.

f. that was the reason I did not follow the advice of one of the earliest responders to spend sufficient time in one place

g. I am a big rail fan. I wanted to squeeze in as many high speed rail journeys as possible in those 4 days (Here is US as you know rail service is non-existent for the most part and singularly unimpressive where it exists). A train that travels with luck an average 100 km/hr is considered high speed. I cannot give that reason to the rest of my family they would care for it. So I come up with a destination as far as possible that is still doable without strain
TGV has held a fascination for me for the last several years and I keep telling myself I will get on that train one day. For those that live in Europe it is no big deal but for me it is.

h. Could not make Zurich work with our schedule as there were fewer connnections. Besides we could also claim we were up close with the Alps by taking a day trip out to the country

So above are all some of the reasons we decided on Geneva as a second destination for this short trip. These reasons may all not be valid, in your mind ridiculous but so be it. We will work with what we got.

Thanks for the advice. May be we will get another opportunity to visit Belgium and get a taste of all that it has to offer.

Have a great weekend

hsubbu, fine reasoning. In your case I would take the TGV to Lausanne rather than Geneva. It's just a more pleasant place to visit, and you are still in French Switzerland.

a. I read quite a few unfavorable reviews about Brussels itself even though as you said there are plenty of interesting places nearby


Now, I know there are some not-that-nice areas in Brussels, but about 90% of them are in an area that tourists never get to see (unless they become lost). The area around the North and South stations is indeed a bit seedy at night, but not more so than most other European cities. Generally though, if you ignore the yobbos that hang out in these areas, you'll be fine (if you take normal precautions like not having your camera hanging around your neck). Other than that, I have to agree with Koby. Bruges, Gent and Antwerp are all within 100km of Brussels and all are definitely worth a visit.
that said, I respect yoru choice to go to Geneva instead, but I just wanted to give my opinion as a Belgian about the perception that Brussels is dangerous.

Now, I know there are some not-that-nice areas in Brussels, but about 90% of them are in an area that tourists never get to see (unless they become lost). The area around the North and South stations is indeed a bit seedy at night, but not more so than most other European cities. Generally though, if you ignore the yobbos that hang out in these areas, you'll be fine (if you take normal precautions like not having your camera hanging around your neck). Other than that, I have to agree with Koby. Bruges, Gent and Antwerp are all within 100km of Brussels and all are definitely worth a visit.
that said, I respect yoru choice to go to Geneva instead, but I just wanted to give my opinion as a Belgian about the perception that Brussels is dangerous.


Actually, I seriously considered spending some time in Bruges and did some research on that too. Also Amsterdam was another place I wanted to go to and both were less than a 2 hr train ride from Brussels where we would land

But my wife had her sights set on both Paris and some place in Switzerland and I had to do what we can give the limited time we had.

May be we will do a more leisurely trip in future at some point and visit both the Netherlands and a few other places in Belgium

thanks for all the great suggestions and advice. Will store it away for future.

Actually, I seriously considered spending some time in Bruges and did some research on that too. Also Amsterdam was another place I wanted to go to and both were less than a 2 hr train ride from Brussels where we would land

But my wife had her sights set on both Paris and some place in Switzerland and I had to do what we can give the limited time we had.

May be we will do a more leisurely trip in future at some point and visit both the Netherlands and a few other places in Belgium

thanks for all the great suggestions and advice. Will store it away for future.

Since you're landing in BRU, I'll tell you now, DO NOT use the ticket machines, they only accept Belgian debit cards (which I assume you don't have). Use the ticket office instead.

Use the ticket office instead.Or just buy the ticket online at b-rail.be beforehand and print it out at home.

Or just buy the ticket online at b-rail.be beforehand and print it out at home.

Thank you. I was thinking about that too. There have been so many posts about US issued chip less credit cards being useless in a lot of places especially train stations/ticket machines.

I was going to draw sufficient Euros at the first opportunity at BRU airport soon as we land

I was going to use the ticket offices but buying them online before even leaving home at home seems better.

I have visited the b-rail.be website several times and it seems I can buy the tickets only 30 days out

On a related note I wish I had paid more attention when booking the Brussles to Paris reservation on Thalys. I had not checked the schedules carefully and missed the one that starts from Brussels airport all the way to Paris. My current booking for Brussels Midi-Paris is a No-Flex fare so I cannot do anything about it.

I just hope I have not made many such mistakes. We plan on depositing two big checked bags at the left luggage lockers in Brussels airport and pick it back up on when we depart on day 5 morning

The non-flex is the reason I always book trains as near to last minute as possible. The little bit of extra money it costs is worth it when plans change. I often buy international tickets at Brussels-Midi. There is a large ticket office where you take a number on entering and the wait is never longer than 5 minutes IME.

The non-flex is the reason I always book trains as near to last minute as possible. The little bit of extra money it costs is worth it when plans change. I often buy international tickets at Brussels-Midi. There is a large ticket office where you take a number on entering and the wait is never longer than 5 minutes IME.

you do realise that way you always pay a €7 surcharge, right?
Also, youth tickets (for everyone up to 26) are always semiflex somehow, so I can always buy semiflex for less :D

you do realise that way you always pay a €7 surcharge, right?

I have a Railpass subscription so I get 25% off and I don't think I pay a €7 surcharge. But even if I did, like I said above I'll pay a little bit extra for the peace of mind. There are always delays of some sort and sometimes you want to make last minute changes. So I have a lot less stress buying my tickets at the station.

Koby

I understand that you are disappointed that we decided to go all the way to Geneva but it was a thought after decision given our priorities.

Don't worry, I'm not disappointed. I have no financial or others interests in keeping you in North-Western Europe. :) I was merely telling you how I see things (from a point of view of someone who travels all over Europe - a lot).

And I didn't mean to force you into writing down such a lengthy and complete answer. :( I feel bad about that now, but thank you for the effort anyway.

I hope you'll enjoy your short stay in Europe!

Actually, I seriously considered spending some time in Bruges and did some research on that too. Also Amsterdam was another place I wanted to go to and both were less than a 2 hr train ride from Brussels where we would land

But my wife had her sights set on both Paris and some place in Switzerland and I had to do what we can give the limited time we had.

May be we will do a more leisurely trip in future at some point and visit both the Netherlands and a few other places in Belgium

thanks for all the great suggestions and advice. Will store it away for future.

My wife and I were in Amsterdam in February. We took a day trip to Brussels - easy two hour high speed, limited stop train. The same train line (can't remember which one it was) also has Paris Nord as the end of the line, approximately 85 minutes from Brussels south station. Suggestion - if you have four days in northern Europe, you can definitely experience Amsterdam and Paris. I agree with a previous poster about not much to see in Brussels. Plenty to see and do in Amsterdam, and obviously same with Paris. Enjoy !

Making last minute preparations for the upcoming first time swing through Europe.

I am having trouble deciding how to deal with two large suitcases that we want to store in left luggage in Brussels. Flying into BRU on 3rd august and flying out 7th august morning.

Do we leave the two large suitcases - 26 inch at

a. the BRU airport - or
b. Bruxelles Midi station - from where we take the Thalys to Paris and return from Paris after 4 days on 6th

c. Request the hotel to keep them.

I have read various forums and cannot get a fix on whether there is a 72 hr limit for left luggage at Bruxelles Midi - the airport facility seems the most expensive at 7.50 Euros per piece per day

Any suggestions please. We really do not want to lug around those 2 heavy suitcases for 4 days. We will keep what we need for 4 days in our rollaboards.

Both my concerns are now addressed. Thanks for the tip

a. I was able to easily get the train tickets online on http://www.b-rail.be with my US card. Printed the pdf tickets at home. Did not know could do that before. Now no need to deal with the vending machine on a non-chip card or fish around for Euro in small bills

b. Regarding my question on luggage I had an interesting experience. I wrote an email to the hotel at Diegem last month and there was no response. I tried a different tactic this time

I drafted a letter in English, pasted it in google.com/transliterate and got the Dutch version and copy+paste the dutch translation into an email to the Accor Hotel we will be staying in Diegem requesting whether they can hold their luggage.

Within hours the shift leader at the hotel responded in perfect English saying that they will be happy to hold our luggage for us for 3 days until we checked in. I would like to think that sending that letter in Dutch has helped. All is well

One more week from today, I am really excited. Thanks for all the useful tips.

One more question, regarding local trains in Paris,, do I get there and buy a carnet of tickets at one of the Paris train stations for local travel.

One more question, regarding local trains in Paris,, do I get there and buy a carnet of tickets at one of the Paris train stations for local travel.

If you are just taking the local metro/RER inside the center of Paris (Zone 1) then yes buy a carnet of 10 tickets if that suits you. You can probably buy from the machines if you have a chipped Visa or MC.

If you are just taking the local metro/RER inside the center of Paris (Zone 1) then yes buy a carnet of 10 tickets if that suits you. You can probably buy from the machines if you have a chipped Visa or MC.

The machines also take € cash, of course (at least for single tickets, and I assume for carnets as well...)

The machines also take € cash, of course (at least for single tickets, and I assume for carnets as well...)

Yes, sorry I left that out. They do take coins for carnets.

You're not going to Bruges? I would definitely re-think that- it's really stunning and is the "Venice of the North". Much neater to see than Geneva, and even an afternoon in Bruges will be well worth it.

You're not going to Bruges? I would definitely re-think that- it's really stunning and is the "Venice of the North". Much neater to see than Geneva, and even an afternoon in Bruges will be well worth it.

We tried to convince hsubbu, believe me... :D
You'd have to read the entire thread to get the whole story, but in short: his wife wants to go to Switzerland. ;)

We tried to convince hsubbu, believe me... :D
You'd have to read the entire thread to get the whole story, but in short: his wife wants to go to Switzerland. ;)

That pretty much sums it up. I wanted to stay in one city for all 4 days. The wife wanted to claim that she set foot on Switzerland and Paris both however rushed it might turn out to be.

And we had only 4 days to spare as we had a long list of commitments in India where we were headed next.

So that was it. Domestic harmony trumps my preferences every single time...

May be there will be another time when I can take it in my own pace..

Just a quick note to thank everyone who had at various points chipped in with extremely useful information on various aspects of travel.

During this 4 day swing through 3 countries, we stayed in 4 different hotels, took hotel shuttles, buses, various trains, walked a lot, hopped on and off city tour in Paris, took the very reasonable 1 hr long evening cruise on the Seine on lovely Friday evening.

My 2 boys enjoyed it and held up very well. A quick summary of where we were

Day 1 - Arrive Brussels - left luggage at the Diegem Novotel proceed by Thalys to Paris

Day 2 - Geneva and a half a day trip to Montreaux by regional train and to Chillon castle

Day 3 - Geneva local and visit United Nations complex

Day 4 - Return to Paris - local sightseeing - return to Brussels by Thalys
Leave luggage at Bruxelles Midi and spent an hour or two at the Grand Place at night, before retiring to the hotel at Diegem

Day 5 - Depart for MAA via FRA

It was rushed but it was worth it. There is something to be said lying back on a comfortable TGV train watching the French countryside roll by and the sky and the land lit up in a reddish orange glow setting sun reading a newspaper and drinking a coffee.

All our hotel stays were in the Accor Hotels properties either at Ibis style or Suite Novotel. All of them were very satisfactory and easily catered to our needs of a 'family/quad room' for our family of four.

Hotels stayed at:
Day 1 Paris - Ibis Montmartre (Old Pacific hotel) on 77 Rue Du Ruisseau
Day 2 Geneva - Suite Novotel -Cointrin opposite Pailly -Balexert Mall
Day 3 Paris - Ibis All Seasons Chateau De Landon - adjacent to Landon Metro stop on line 7
Day 4 Brussels - Novotel at Diegem near airport

Contrary to popular notion that European hotels tend to be cramped our rooms were modern, clean, well laid out and fairly spacious. I may have paid a little bit extra for the family room but we were well rested.

My older son was thrilled when we made an impromptu side trip to Bruxelles Centraal to spend an hour or so at the Grand Place. We had the Belgian waffle, bought some chocolate to take back with us

I felt I gave my sons a lot of good memories and for me a lot of times the journey is as valuable as what we do at the destination.

The tips about getting train tickets, leaving baggage for storage etc were very useful.

I hope to write a detailed trip report with pictures that might benefit others once I have arranged the pictures and find some time to start writing it.

Happy travels

I'm more than a bit late to this discussion but will just add a few of my own experiences.

I agree with one of the previous posters (with his parents) who mentioned than sometimes just hitting a large number of places quickly is the best way to go. My first trip to Germany covered a wide range of things I wanted to see and I wasn't sure if I would ever get back.

We did a 8 city (FRA/Rothenburg, Fussen, Zurich, Bern, Grindelwald, Zermatt, Baden-Baden and Heidelburg/FRA) 12 day trip. While the checking in/out of hotels was a bit annoying, the train riding was very relaxing. We hit a variety of Christmas markets and the Jungfroch in Switzerland. Very memorable.

I've been lucky to get back once more and this winter may do a Paris-Brussels-Cologne 10 night trip. For me 2-4 nights in one place is plenty. I see people talking about 10+ nights in a city and I couldn't imagine doing that unless it was work related. I enjoy London but after a week it would drive me crazy. Of course I'm not a person who enjoys the frantic life style of a big city.

Glad the trip worked out.