KLM Flying Dutchman - Rumor: Unlimited upgrades on KL shorthaul-flights ex AMS for FlyingBlue Elites

In a german frequent flyer board some posters say, that they got complimentary upgrades on KL flights ex Amsterdam due there FlyingBlue Gold or Platinum status.
In addition on person of the KL ground staff is quote, that there planning to establish this on all KL shorthaul flights.

So this was 'beta tested' on a route AMS-Germany? Can somebody here confirm?
And in what way did this work? At the gate, or at check-in?

I expect that, if this is indeed true, it only applies to expensive booking classes and only possible when unused business seats are available at the last minute only.

It would be a good idea to have upgrades from Y to W and W to C on AF/KL short flights for at least platinum members: travellers would not pay short haul W instead of discounted Y just to have the slightly better meal and champagne (and neither W to C) but would choose AF KL over competitors if onboard service is better and if they feel their status is "generously recognized".

spooky well last weeks flights for me both the ex AMS legs I was upgraded (LBA-AMS-HAM-AMS-LBA) But paid for one upgrade (only £30 on the AMS-HAM leg) ... maybe I should have waited and had the free upgrade at the desk ! :D

but I don't see much in this , KLM would not do this .. it devalues the product to much I guess and they must make a lot for revenue from Plat and gold members on the upgrades offered at Online check in... this would be like them giving something away for free ! .. as if they would ever do that !

First of April passed 23 days ago. The only thing KLM is doing lately, is devaluing the service on board their aircraft for European flights. Start getting used to it....

Its definitly not only on flights to Germany, one named route was AMS-GOT.

I dont see the point why KLM couldn´t do this, all big airlines in the United States are upgrading there elite members on domestic flights and there is IMHO much more difference between the products with extra seats.

First of April passed 23 days ago. The only thing KLM is doing lately, is devaluing the service on board their aircraft for European flights. Start getting used to it....

KLM just upgradet there premium product on European flights one year ago. Before this they had something called "Europe Select", with no free middle seats and lousy service. Now its a real Business Class, which IMHO deserves this name.

So I think its very unlikely that KLM is devaluing there on-board service in the next time.

KLM is (in the progress) of taking away the coat cabins. In addition, all flights to Scandinavian destinations has been down graded in Economy and Business in the catering section. Yaya, we get a middle seat, but all the other stuff are gone. I rather not have the middle seat, but still the coat cabin and better & warm food in business and a sandwich in economy.

Btw, what other routes were mentioned and what is considered shorthaul (All intra-european?) ?

SB

Who'd have thought the Narnia at the front of the cabin was so vital to some flyer's impressions of KLM.

Its definitly not only on flights to Germany, one named route was AMS-GOT.

I dont see the point why KLM couldn´t do this, all big airlines in the United States are upgrading there elite members on domestic flights and there is IMHO much more difference between the products with extra seats.

Different culture. This is Europe. Get used to it! (If other European airlines adopted the American idea of upgrading Elites for the sake of it KLM might follow suit. But they'll be last, not first)

refering to destinations with less service;

LIN/BGO/OSL/VCE ; c will give you food wise a cold meal, in y class a sandwich for breakfast , till 9 am, afterwards all day sweet/savoury snack and drinks( wine/beer as alcoholic option in y class).On longer flights like ATH/LIS etc a hotsnack /choice is now offered so this seems to be an improvement
Food on eg ARN/HEL and other scandinavian destinations have not been changed

It would be very nice but I personally don't believe in it. Apart from US airlines fighting in a world where every other airline does the same, they also have fixed cabin plans, meaning that the upgrade system allows them to sell more seats which would not get sold otherwise. By contrast, with moduleable cabins, KL can simply move the curtain up or down one row and will never get more than 3 empty seats due to the cabin divide (i.e. if it needs to create one extra row of C for only 1 passenger). So creating more C rows just for the sake of upgrading elite Y pax would mean spending money without any immediate additional income at a time when they are trying to reduce costs as much as possible. Not likely I would guess but of course I'd love to be wrong...

I have an upcoming flight that has been showing Y3 B0 etc as well as J3 since a week before departure. Leads me to suspect that the J cabin has already been reduced to the absolute minimum of 1½ row.

Will be interesting to see whether I'm offered a €79 upgrade (no way I'll take it on a KLC E190 where the adjacent seat is not kept free. I've seen cheaper salads), or what happens at the gate.

Johan

Why not block out middle seat for E+ when Y is not full. It will be almost the same experience without devaluing C. The only difference will be the food and the newspaper (both for which I don't care for much on short-haul).

Why not block out middle seat for E+ when Y is not full.They used to do that, in theory if not always in practice, for many years. With the introduction of EC and EB, this benefit was removed. I therefore don't think it will be reinstated anytime soon.

Johan

I have an upcoming flight that has been showing Y3 B0 etc as well as J3 since a week before departure. Leads me to suspect that the J cabin has already been reduced to the absolute minimum of 1½ row.

Will be interesting to see whether I'm offered a €79 upgrade (no way I'll take it on a KLC E190 where the adjacent seat is not kept free. I've seen cheaper salads), or what happens at the gate.

If it's J3, this means 1½ rows as you correctly said.

If it's an E190 that would translate to 6 seats in C.
If they are selling only 3, this would indicate that the adjacent seat is indeed blocked.
This matches up with my experience on the E190.

Why do you think that the adjacent seat would be used?

I have an upcoming flight that has been showing Y3 B0 etc as well as J3 since a week before departure. Leads me to suspect that the J cabin has already been reduced to the absolute minimum of 1½ row.

Johan

How come? Doesn't this mean that at this moment there are still three seats in J for sale. In what way does it predict anything about load?

From what I understand the E190 has 4 J seats per row. Perhaps they have sold 5, 9 or 13 seats so far and want to fill the now unused 3 left over J seats :) Or am I missing something?

Yes, the non-existent middle seat is blocked in C on the E190.

Back more or less on topic: why does no one believe a headline 'rumor: unlimited upgrades for elites' whereas 'rumor: unlimited upgrades for family and friends' would be more credible?

I doubt it will happen because of revenue management issues - they would rather sell the seat for a discount at OLCI than upgrade elites for free.

I'd rather have seat block in Y for Elites than space available upgrades.

With the hybrid cabin, I don't think it'll happen.

How come? Doesn't this mean that at this moment there are still three seats in J for sale. In what way does it predict anything about load?I fly this route all the time. When on the E190, I've yet to see more than 1½ rows of EB this year. Last time, there was nobody in EB.

With EB loads very light, and Y more than likely overbooked, I'm willing to bet that EB will be restricted to 1½ rows.

All six flights that day from AMS are down to J3, and all seem to be full or almost full in economy, with the few seats still for sale restricted mostly to the Y bucket. I suspect that the EB cabin is being kept as small as possible on these flights too. Maybe the upcoming "Mei vacantie" has something to do with it.

I shall be sure to let you know whether I was right or wrong.

Johan

I fly this route all the time. When on the E190, I've yet to see more than 1½ rows of EB this year. Last time, there was nobody in EB.

With EB loads very light, and Y more than likely overbooked, I'm willing to bet that EB will be restricted to 1½ rows.

All six flights that day from AMS are down to J3, and all seem to be full or almost full in economy, with the few seats still for sale restricted mostly to the Y bucket. I suspect that the EB cabin is being kept as small as possible on these flights too. Maybe the upcoming "Mei vacantie" has something to do with it.

I shall be sure to let you know whether I was right or wrong.

Johan

J3 B0 means nothing else than 3 are in J-Class still available and none in B-Class, nothing else.
And what means 1½ rows: right divider after row one and the left one after row 2? I dont really get what you are saying.

KL is not shifting the dividers often on the routes i fly, dividers are commonly after row 4 to 6 translates to 16 to 24 seats in Biz if all seats are used. Loads in Biz have been light recently.
The policy of KL over all this years has been to upgrade Plats/Golds for free if Y is overbooked, I had this many times. But in the recent 1 to 2 years it seemed to me that the amount of overbooked flights has been significantly reduced, thus the chance to fetch an upgrade was also less.
Probably currently KL is facing a capacity problem on certain german destinations, so that there is the feeling of some FFers that they "always" get upgraded and they feel there is a change of the upgrading policy.

J3 B0 means nothing else than 3 are in J-Class still available and none in B-Class, nothing else.What it means is that they are willing to sell 3 seats in EB, not necessarily that there are three seats physically available.

When all six flights to a certain destination are showing J3 (or even J2 as of this morning), whereas Y is full, I think there is a good chance that KL have made the EB cabins as small as possible to get as many people on the flights as they can squeeze in.

Checking a short while ago, I saw that the last two flights are now completely zeroed out in Y, whilst one of the morning flights is suddenly showing Y9 B9 M6. This leads me to suspect that KL may have scheduled a larger 737 for that morning flight, knowing that none of the later flights would have spare seats to accommodate any pax denied boarding on earlier flights.


And what means 1½ rows: right divider after row one and the left one after row 2? I dont really get what you are saying.No, divider after row 2. Row 1 consists of only half a row on the starboard side, at least until they have removed the wardrobes. The divider cannot be moved any further forward than behind row 2, so the mininum EB cabin size is 6 seats on both the 737 and E190 (middle seats kept free on the former).

KL is not shifting the dividers often on the routes i flyThey will try to keep shifting to a minimum, but will certainly move it as far forward as possible to cram in as many pax as they can in Y.

dividers are commonly after row 4 to 6 translates to 16 to 24 seats in Biz if all seats are used.Only two seats in row 1, so 14 to 22 in total.

Loads in Biz have been light recently.I can't recall when I last saw more than four pax in EB (excluding upgrades).

But in the recent 1 to 2 years it seemed to me that the amount of overbooked flights has been significantly reducedI've been on a few this year, but would hesitate to draw any conclusions from that. No personal experience on flight to/from Germany.

Johan

I fly this route all the time. When on the E190, I've yet to see more than 1½ rows of EB this year. Last time, there was nobody in EB.

With EB loads very light, and Y more than likely overbooked, I'm willing to bet that EB will be restricted to 1½ rows.

All six flights that day from AMS are down to J3, and all seem to be full or almost full in economy, with the few seats still for sale restricted mostly to the Y bucket. I suspect that the EB cabin is being kept as small as possible on these flights too. Maybe the upcoming "Mei vacantie" has something to do with it.

I shall be sure to let you know whether I was right or wrong.

Johan

Thanks, I'm curious to see how that theory pans out. One could also say that due to the spring break many frequent fliers are redeeming their miles for Business awards for tropic destinations. And that might actually increase the size of the Business cabin :)
KLM probably makes more of off Flying Blue Business award redemptions than cheap economy tickets, so I assume they would be willing to increase the business cabin size :)

Thanks, I'm curious to see how that theory pans out.So am I, and I shall be sure to let you know.

One could also say that due to the spring break many frequent fliers are redeeming their miles for Business awards for tropic destinations. And that might actually increase the size of the Business cabinQuite plausible, but as far as I know they don't do spring breaks in Scandinavia. Schools close in the week of Easter, and then there are only a few public holidays until the summer vacation.

Johan

What it means is that they are willing to sell 3 seats in EB, not necessarily that there are three seats physically available.

When all six flights to a certain destination are showing J3 (or even J2 as of this morning), whereas Y is full, I think there is a good chance that KL have made the EB cabins as small as possible to get as many people on the flights as they can squeeze in.

If Y is full this can mean anything, it doesnt tell if Biz is small or large. Its mainly depending if flights are used to connect to Longhaul, Time of the year, Holiday or not, day of the week etc. From my experience is hard to predict how large the chance is for an upgrade.

By the way: A few times I was upgraded into BIZ and every single seat was occupied on F100/F70. Once there wasnt enough catering, so only the paid-biz passengers got the food. But that was some years ago, if recall it correctly 2006 or 07.

No, divider after row 2. Row 1 consists of only half a row on the starboard side, at least until they have removed the wardrobes. The divider cannot be moved any further forward than behind row 2, so the mininum EB cabin size is 6 seats on both the 737 and E190 (middle seats kept free on the former).

Thanks to clarify.

I can't recall when I last saw more than four pax in EB (excluding upgrades).
At least on the routes I flew it was a bit better, but still considered light;)


I've been on a few this year, but would hesitate to draw any conclusions from that. No personal experience on flight to/from Germany.

Johan

You were upgraded?

Its definitly not only on flights to Germany, one named route was AMS-GOT.

I dont see the point why KLM couldn´t do this, all big airlines in the United States are upgrading there elite members on domestic flights and there is IMHO much more difference between the products with extra seats.

Why don't you tell this Lufthansa?

If Y is full this can mean anything, it doesnt tell if Biz is small or large.True, but having flown this route more times than I can count, mostly on the same flights, I'm hazarding an educated guess. Loads in EB tend to be very light, those in Y vary from moderate to overbooked. It is rare for the curtain to be further back than row 5 even on flights with few pax in Y.


From my experience is hard to predict how large the chance is for an upgrade.Indeed, but I am not trying to do so, on such a short KLC flight I couldn't care less whether I'm upgraded on not. The only advantage of EB on full flights is an adjacent vancant seat, which you do not get on the E190.

What I'm interested in is whether there is any truth whatsoever in this "unlimeted upgrades" rumor, and thus whether they will offer any €79 OLCI upgrades or gate upgrades. My flight has now been zeroed out in Y, but still shows J3.

Johan

It suddenly occurred to me to check Orbitz. The seat map for my flight indeed shows 1½ row of J, with only one seat available for selection. The other five flights have 1½ or 2½ rows of J.

Johan

I asked yesterday the senior gate manager about this rumour, and he looked at me as if I smoked pot.... I guess this willl never happen as expected....

SB

and he looked at me as if I smoked pot....

I shouldn't have thought that was such an exceptional occurrence in the Netherlands! :D

I discussed this with KLM on Wednesday and was told that as far as he knew no such promo/offer was introduced.

I discussed this with KLM on Wednesday and was told that as far as he knew no such promo/offer was introduced.

Hello Gajan: Look forward to your notes on your meeting of last Wednesday - and curious if the other recent rumor (EC intra-Europe) was discussed ;)

I discussed this with KLM on Wednesday and was told that as far as he knew no such promo/offer was introduced.

So the rumour is not denied and these upgreades have not been introduced yet...

So the rumour is not denied and these upgreades have not been introduced yet...

You are too optimistic.

What KLM did was a carefully worded denial.

And even without it it was clear to a lot of experienced people that it's not going to happen...

You are too optimistic.


+1. KLM sometimes plays on words to dissimulate bad news, not good news.