KLM Flying Dutchman - Upcoming KLM meeting Wednesday 25 April 2012

Dear All,

Before heading off to enjoy the AF/ADP Do I will be having another meeting with KLM staff on Wednesday 25 April.

During the meeting I had last year they really appreciated the comments you brought forward. As probably noticed there have been small changes implemented / planned (pilot book the cook in WBC, upgraded meals in Y, Europe Business Class, announced new WBC flat bed, SkyPriority etc.).

My question to you is if you have any questions / experiences etc. you would like to bring forward please post them and I will make sure your comments are heard.

I lost the summary of the meeting last year when moving to my new place but I promise to provide a summary of this meeting as soon as possible.

Best,

Gajan

upgraded meals in Y, Europe Business Class

According to this (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/klm-flying-dutchman/1328872-intra-european-flights-food-service.html) thread, all is not well with the catering on certain shorthaul flights.

Would you please enquire what exactly is going on there?

Of my two most recent CPH-AMS flights in EB one was operated by KLC, so I just got a salad, on the other they had only catered one dinner for three pax, so I got a left-over sandwich from lunch. The third pax got the last sandwich.

Johan

Sky Priority is a great concept, but implementation is its Achilles heel.

Have KL management taken steps to ensure that gate agents will at all times follow procedures and board the aircraft in the correct order, even at those AMS gates which have not (yet) had their infrastructure adapted to Sky Priority?

Johan

Bring back Superfly!

According to this (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/klm-flying-dutchman/1328872-intra-european-flights-food-service.html) thread, all is not well with the catering on certain shorthaul flights.

Would you please enquire what exactly is going on there?

Of my two most recent CPH-AMS flights in EB one was operated by KLC, so I just got a salad, on the other they had only catered one dinner for three pax, so I got a left-over sandwich from lunch. The third pax got the last sandwich.

Johan

Here, here! And what is up with the 100 minutes rule, and not following it for flights to Oslo!
Thanks,
SB

I'd like to know how they have the bare faced cheek to charge fuel surcharges (either at all or at least as high as they are) on reward tickets. Fuel is a basic cost of running an should be part of the fare. :mad:

Any major changes to FB in the pipeline to try and coax some pax back?

Is there any chance of a seat block for Plat's like SEN?

What's going on with the food in the lounges at AMS? Not getting restocked quick enough, sometimes really bad quality. Any plans to make this better?

1. Now that you can select FB Amex as a payment type, will they finally drop the card usage fee for this particular loyalty card?
2. Their booking engine is much better than AF's, but I would like that they implement what DL has had for ages - in advanced booking options you can actually select fare classes.
3. I would not mind if more fare classes are upgreable, even if they would charge more miles for that.
4. If award tickets, (say in J at least) counted as level segments, I would not be hording miles. Many hotel programs do that award nights count for your requalification!
5. Even though the AF DO is not over, when is the KLM DO going to take place? :D

1. continue to improve lounges. AFKL lounges are far worse than even LH C or BA Galleries C lounges and dont distinguish whereas LH and BA have SEN or Galleries First for higher status pax at their home airports. How about brining back a Plat lounge at the D pier?

2. As Johan said better enforce (Or enforce in the first place) the boarding rules. Having the rules is a start but not worth much in a culture where rules are to be broken as in NL

3. Stop treating family and friends better than your pax. On a recent flight, the f&f got all the attention (in C of course) and paying pax (C or Y) got little or none

4. Make FB an attractive programme again. M&M may be devaluing but BAEC has actually managed to improve.

5. Expedite the flat seats. I wont't be on long haul KL until seats are full flat - unless I have no alternative. And don't make it a lottery, introduce it by route to the extent possible.

Do something about priority boarding and baggage delivery (certainly at AMS, it's pathetic) and improve S/H catering.

I don't fly a lot with KL.
Don't have to say something on short haul (as I used very SH AMS-BRU) but...

On the unique Long Haul I did last year I have been really bad impressed by the way hostesses and stewards acted:
- A very warm welcome to a member of the staff out of duty... bringing drinks from WBC to EC,speaking a lot, greeting each others, beeing loudy.... (a bit of discretion please)
- Trays leaning on the ground (of course this before serving diner :td:).
- Barefeet in the galley !

Wonder, if there is some times any passenger X inspecting the way it's done overthere.

I know KL is (a bit of) Holland, but this flight seamed to bee "back in the post 68's years".

Sky Priority is a great concept, but implementation is its Achilles heel.

Have KL management taken steps to ensure that gate agents will at all times follow procedures and board the aircraft in the correct order, even at those AMS gates which have not (yet) had their infrastructure adapted to Sky Priority?


2. As Johan said better enforce (Or enforce in the first place) the boarding rules. Having the rules is a start but not worth much in a culture where rules are to be broken as in NL


To develop on this idea, I believe this is just a symptom, not the disease itself. The problem is the way outstations are handled. This is true for both KL and AF: they don't seem to care AT ALL about what happens with the subcontracted outstation staff. Luggage, various elite benefits... all pretty random and overall disappointing. Considering that over half of the KL flights are from outstations (since there are also the tag-on flights, such as SIN-DPS), I would ask for better management of the outstations, with more consistency applied.
I found that in most cases the KL cabin staff are quite pleasant. We do like to complain here, and there are exceptions but in all honesty I think they are doing pretty well. ^
Clearly KL is pushing paid UGs. While we've been pretty vigilant on FT, it would be nice if they were more transparent about it. Saying that UGs are available on some flights for some price is not really saying much.

Let's have priority baggage actually be priority delivered so bags that are not labeled with the big florescent yellow marker are not to be amongst the priority bags coming out on the carrousel.

So far this has only been seen at NRT with my own eyes (and believe it or not at IST). I often count 10-15 bags without priority coming out first before the first priority bag can be seen.

It has to work, or just get rid of it altogether as it is a false selling point :mad:

What is the status of EC short-haul and what added benefits may be introduced?

A toll-free FB line for Elites would be nice too.

I would say:

- Priority luggage should be handled as priority, and not come out in the middle of the pack. Furthermore luggage takes in general much (much!) too long at AMS. Its their main hub and it is just ridiculous that the first bags come out only after 45 minutes after de-boarding.

- Crowded lounges. Especially true for the main hub at AMS. At peak times Crown lounge #25 is just an unpleasant place. No food available, huge queues and no place to sit. Sometimes one has to be already waiting in line when new food is brought out, because otherwise people in the existing queue will finish everything from the new plates.

A toll-free FB line for Elites would be nice too.

A FB Platinum Amex is your answer:D

A FB Platinum Amex is your answer:D

If it's a choice between paying for the (few) telephone calls, or paying the annual Amex FB Platinum fee, I know which I'd prefer!!!!!! :D

Maybe with Xandrios' mention of the crowded lounges not a good idea, but if they could improve lounge capacity, a (one time) loungevoucher for Silvers would be a nice addition too à la NZ. LH's Frequent Travellers already have access to LH's own lounges.

When are peak times for the Crown Lounges? I've never seen them packed. Busy, at some times, but packed, never.

It would help if their buffets were sensibly laid out. The current setup is pretty useless in both #25 and #52. Space is tight and there is no logical flow, with people coming and going from all directions.

BA's T5 F lounge is a good examply of how it should be done, to name just one example.

Johan

... Furthermore luggage takes in general much (much!) too long at AMS. Its their main hub and it is just ridiculous that the first bags come out only after 45 minutes after de-boarding. ...

Although I am just a lousy Ivory member and I wonder how much of this is in KLM's hands (vs. Schiphol's), this is indeed very annoying. Schiphol is one great airport but I don't wanna know how much time I've already spent waiting at the luggage belts. It's usually longer than the trip home once I've got my luggage.

One tip for Gold, Platinum and Business Class passengers, just chill in the crown lounge for 20-30 minutes after the flight landed, before going to get your luggage.

SB

One tip for Gold, Platinum and Business Class passengers, just chill in the crown lounge for 20-30 minutes after the flight landed, before going to get your luggage.

SB

The lounges in AMS can also be used as an arrival lounge only not many people use this facility.

How about offering a 'book the house' service for FB Plat and Gold along the lines of the "book the cook". That way some of us could look at progressively completing the collections and presumably that wouldn't be hard for KLM to implement. I know it truly IS a detail!

One tip for Gold, Platinum and Business Class passengers, just chill in the crown lounge for 20-30 minutes after the flight landed, before going to get your luggage.

SB

The lounges in AMS can also be used as an arrival lounge only not many people use this facility.

I do it regularly, though it'salwayshard to estimate when my bags will show up andsince several flights can be put on one caroussel i wonder what will happen to it when I show up late. Any indights?

The lounges in AMS can also be used as an arrival lounge only not many people use this facility.

When are peak times for the Crown Lounges? I've never seen them packed. Busy, at some times, but packed, never.

Around 19:00 is a good hotspot. I usually arrive around 19:30 - 20:00, at which time it is still very crowded and the food is usually gone.

These days I actually prefer to get french fries at the french-fries store in the general shopping area after a long flight. Which I actually prefer over going to the lounge due to reasons mentioned above :)

Is there any chance of a seat block for Plat's like SEN?

This would be for me a key improvement - block middle seats for Plat when intra-Europe flights are far from full. It must be simple to do now they pre-assign seats prior to OLCI.

Also, better enforcement of priority boarding at gates where there are no separate lines for C/Elite.

This would be for me a key improvement - block middle seats for Plat when intra-Europe flights are far from full. It must be simple to do now they pre-assign seats prior to OLCI.

I couldn't agree more: this would be the improvement for Y/CL travelling Plats. But not only for intra-Europe - also for long-haul.

block middle seats for Plat when intra-Europe flights are far from full.They used to do this for years, at least in theory. It was called Select Seating.

On longhaul flights, they did not block middle seats, but the row 9-17 cabin on the 747 was the desginated seating zone reserved for elite and full-fare Y pax only.

Johan

At the risk of sounding like a cracked record it would be nice, as others have also mentioned, if KLM observed and applied their regulations for priority boarding. During my flight from AMS to CDG the other day a South American guy in front of me was booted out of the priority boarding line (no status) only for the Dutch guy behind me (also no status) to be waved through after some banter with the staffer. Pathetic.

Is paying for EC with miles already considered by KLM?

I do a lot a flights and generally I do like the experience flying with KLM. It are the 'small things' that make me feel a rewarded customer next to ones listed under the FF benefits that go with the status I have. As an example on my flight from Bud last week they nicely kept the middle seat open.

But there is always something to wish for:

1) Offer more/better options to fly on KL metal to US destinations (Try PHL as a destination for example and find an outbound flight on KL metal. Inbound only the ATL flight is offered where the Delta booking engine also offers a KL flight out of JFK, but this cannot be booked with KL only via DL.

2) KLM has recently closed the possbility to pre-select the front (or bulkhead) seats in Y on their long-haul operations and open them only during online check-in. This had been the case pre-EC era but I had hoped they would not re-introduce this in a Premium zone area that can only be accessed by people that are willing to pay for it or are high yield.

3) Enfore Priority Boarding consistently. Especially AMS needs to make this a a consistent experience.

4) Make the Priority luggage concept work consistently.

5) Do not further 'Deltanize' this beautifull company and keep that KL touch.

Do not further 'Deltanize' this beautiful company.Are you seriously suggesting there is a difference between Deltanize and Deltanice? :)

Johan

Are you seriously suggesting there is a difference between Deltanize and Deltanice? :)

Johan

Hehehe, subtle but yes. :)

AFKL (and ST) have lost most of my biz after their stupid April Fool's changes. Having to pay huge amounts to get some freakin' miles was just not worth it. It took some courage to leave but finally I now fly all long haul on *A. Just some short haul flights still with ST since they are cheaper.

Elite privileges being downgraded all the time was also a reason to leave.

Dear All,
My question to you is if you have any questions / experiences etc. you would like to bring forward please post them and I will make sure your comments are heard.


I hope it’s not too late to respond to Gajan’s original question.

To start off with some positives:

Website:
Leaving aside the glitches with the recent AF/KL update, KLM’s website is actually quite good/comprehensive (at least compared to most of the other airline websites I’ve looked at recently). In particular, I like the ability to book across multiple airlines (eg: from an offline destination in North America served by DL, via KL/AMS to a remote destination in Africa served by KQ).

Economy Comfort:
I think this works quite well in long-haul, especially if the promised new divider/curtain is now being properly enforced.

SkyPriority:
As I’ve said elsewhere, I like the concept of SkyPriority – I’ve seen it work well with DL, and it makes sense to roll out a good concept across the alliance.

And some more in-depth comments on areas for improvement (I recognise that some of these are maybe beyond 'just KLM', and have implications for the wider ST alliance):

Website:
I’ll start with the website, as it’s where many passengers (at least those who book their own flights) will first have contact with KLM.

- When booking, it would be nice to have more control over fare-class selection. In particular, the multi-city tool often only offers two options: cheapest available Y, and J. It would be good if at least the standard options available in return bookings were also available in multi-city. (But – it’s good that there is a multi-city booking tool)

- It would also be nice to have more options for online booking of combined fares with other ST partners. For example, looking at a random KL fare rule (in Q), it allows “combinations with any fare for carrier AF/KL/AZ”. Often, the combinations rule will be even more generous than that. However, I am not aware of any (reliable) way to book say, a combined AZ+KL route on either www.klm.com or www.alitalia.com (Yes, I know I can go to a travel agent or call up KLM – but the whole point about online booking is that you shouldn’t have to do this any more!)

- The FB mileage calculation on the website (eg: when booking, or in MMB) is often somewhat erratic / unreliable

- The MMB facility is useful. However, it would be really nice to be able to view all ST bookings in one place, rather than having to hunt across multiple websites.

SkyPriority:
As mentioned, I think this is a good concept.

However, as many others have noted, it will be important to ensure that priority boarding works properly (and ideally offer priority security/immigration wherever possible).

Also, priority-tagged baggage actually needs to be delivered first, not mixed in with all the rest or, even worse, last (as happened to me, on a different airline, yesterday!)

Economy:
As many others have said, blocking an empty seat adjacent to E+ pax (if a plane is not completely full) would be a really nice gesture. (However, I’m slightly hesitant to suggest this, as I wouldn’t want to see it introduced as a paid-for ‘enhancement’). Although this isn’t a benefit currently, it’s particularly annoying on occasions when I (as an FB E+) get put in a full row of 3, while other pax (who certainly don’t “look like” they’re E+, although I realise it can be hard to judge this) get a row to themselves...

I (and Mrs KQ321, who’s FB Gold) was very disappointed when free access to extra legroom / rows-of-2 seating was removed as a benefit for FB Gold – both at the loss of the benefit, and the way it was announced (after implementation, and described as ‘customising’...)

Economy Comfort:
As mentioned I think this works reasonable well in long-haul. However, I’m really not sure about introducing it for short-haul...

WBC:
As many others have said: fully flat seats...

IFE:
These two comments apply to most airlines I fly with, not just KL, but:
- It would be nice if the AVOD system were turned on as soon as possible (ie: ideally while the flight is still on ground, rather than waiting until well after take off).
- It is important to maintain AVOD handsets properly. They are understandably more fragile than, say, seats, and they can easily get worn/damaged. However, it’s very annoying to find yourself on a long-haul flight with an AVOD set that doesn’t function properly.

Booking fees, etc:
It’s worth noting that booking fees, credit card fees, etc have provoked lots of discontent on these pages...

Many thanks for taking this initiative, and I wish you a constructive meeting.

I've been meaning to add to this thread for days... but was always still "thinking about it"... and have probably missed the boat!

But... just in case there is still time, here are a couple of points I would like to raise:

1) Emergency exit rows, especially on short routes: When they were free for GEs there was usually someone sitting in them. Now that GEs are having to pay they are often empty because Plats tend to be in Business Class and very few people are willing to pay extra on a one-hour flight. This is a safety issue. KLM should have a rethink, for safety reasons.

2) Short-haul fares: Unlike many other airlines KLM still requires a Saturday night or a minimum three-night stay for affordable return fares (it used to be two nights from the UK but has now gone back to three). No one is going to pay GBP 500 to fly KLM when other airlines are offering the same itinerary for GBP 100 - I generally fly Swiss via ZRH now for my many mid-week European trips, and am seriously considering defecting to *A for that reason only. How much business is KLM losing because of its outdated fare rules?

3) I would like to endorse the comments made by others re priority boarding. With a few exceptions (such as NWI) this never seems to work at outstations, despite it being a published benefit.

4) Staff are still getting much better treatment than paying customers, despite promises from KLM to crack down on this. Is anything ever going to be done about this?

Could you ask why Oslo has been downgraded in the catering division, since it is a 105-110 minute journey it deserves the better catering according to the rules of the KLM of 100 minutes.
In addition, rumour has it that gold and platinum members get bumped to business on short distance routes... may you ask to confirm? If so, to which routes?

Sincerely,

SB

Suggest bonusmiles award for signalling NON-REVs being upgraded to Business Class by Elite and Elite+ members

It would be nice if the AVOD system were turned on as soon as possible.Seconded.

Other airlines offer gate-to-gate IFE, so there is no reason why KL could not.

Johan

Much appreciated.

Thank you all for your comments! :)

I will now close this thread as I will process all comments made.


I hope to post a summary this weekend after the Do.

Gajan