Air France Frequence Plus - DL vs AF business class

I am currently looking at AF and DL planes from DL lounge at Narita. Flying back to HKG in biz on DL.
As mentioned before, DL lunge is huge, airy, plenty of laptop/desktop space. Plenty of hot and cold little snacks, decent selection of drinks. AF lounge next door is small, crowded, hardly any food or drinks.
The whole experience is so much beer on DL. First, booking on a modern website with modern design, fast, and many functionalities. For example, DL booking website offer all available biz fares with their rules, and combination thereoff. I am sure that there are critics, but compared to the strange outdated AF website, with some antique modules and so unreliable...
DL hard product is excellent, a new-generation herringbone flat bed that is very comfortable and more spacy than CX. Excellent avod with modern movies, but small screen (a la AF). Food quite decent, service efficient and attentive; wines poor (but so are AF's).
I know that it is standard to engage in US-airlines bashing. But this flat bed and the whole experience is so much better than AF... And I forgot to mention the (very low) price.

Very interesting, and for me also informative as it comes from someone who has similar preferences than me (as well as backpain like me).

Just two thoughts: I do sincerely hope that the DL lounge is larger! They operate their Asian hub at NRT serving over 20 destinations with many flights leaving around a couple of "banks". That will fill the lounge. AF only has two flights a day to Paris, even if all P and J and Elite pax from those flights go to the AF lounge one won't need a lot of space. That explains its small size. But it doesn't excuse the poor food and drink offering.

My other question concerns in flight product: how does food really compare? I heard several times that the seats on DL are actually better in Business than on AF Affaires but that food was less good. Plus I imagine many DL FAs to be exactly what many Europeans don't like: a tad to "informal/colloquial", a tad to vulgar and style-less, although that may be different with the airline's Asian crews?

In any case, good to hear you enjoy the flight.

Hi Brunos
Thanks for this quick review. Regarding lounge size, as said by San Gottardo, the NRT hub operated by DL justifies the larger lounge. But this is not a reason for AF to not improve food offering for one of their most premium outstation. Skyteam should try to consolidate their operations in a single large lounge, as in LHR T4).
It's good to know that DL is able to offer decent food in their Asian lounges, because in all their other lounges (with the notable exception of the Skyteam lounge in LHR T4), and particularly in the US, they have nothing except peanuts, bretzels, carrots and very bad cheese (or something approaching cheese :D). So it seems that Asia is an exception and they clearly need this to resists to the competition of local carriers.
For the new DL J seat, the reviews are consistently good. It's a pity that they still haven't shown up at CDG...

The DL flat beds will be flying on the JFK-CDG route starting sometime this spring.

Just looked at June 1, and they are there. However, aside from LHR and JFK/ATL - GRU routes, there's no guarantee they won't be switched out to the old style seats at any time.

The DL flat beds will be flying on the JFK-CDG route starting sometime this spring.

Just looked at June 1, and they are there. However, aside from LHR and JFK/ATL - GRU routes, there's no guarantee they won't be switched out to the old style seats at any time.

Oh, good you warned me. I was going to book a DL-operated flight from CDG to the US. So how can one tell on which flight these seats are installed? And on which aircraft type are they anyway?

They usually don't switch...until they do. I was planning a trip to Scandanavia, and was going to go via BRU as it seemed to have the flat beds reliably, but then it was switched again. Glad I didn't book it. I point out all LHR flights and JFK/ATL-GRU flights are close to being a lock only because I have received emails (advertisements) from Delta stating that they are offering flat bed service on these routes. (Not that anything couldn't still happen on these routes...)

All the 767-400s have flat beds. It's the 767s that are still undergoing upgrades, and that's what they currently have on the JFK-CDG route. I believe that DL calls the upgraded 767s (with flat beds) 767-300s. But the easiest way to see is to do a dummy booking. If the BE section has 2x2x2, then it's not a flat bed. If it as 1x2x1, then it is.

Try some dummy booking on DL in May, then look again in June, and you'll be able to notice the difference.

I should add that it's likely they won't switch out the plane, especially for flights in the next few months, but you never know...and depending on what's important for you in a seat, I think it's a huge hardware downgrade from flat beds to the loungers. For me, the worst thing with the loungers is that they are not in a hard shell, so if the person in front of you reclines all the way (when they crush your feet) it makes it very difficult to get out, especially if you're in a window seat. I find this more important on overnight flights.

Thanks, very helpful. BTW do they have the new seats on their 777 fleet? Either the 777-200LR or the 777-200ER, or both? Sorry, this is off topic because not AF-related but I'll stop right after this. (Unless our moderators are indulgent and find this relevant because it enlightens many people that use the Air France-Delta joint venture across the Atlantic).

The LRs definitely have them, as they were introduced with the flat beds. The regular 777s, of that I'm not sure, as I never see them at JFK for some reason. But there aren't a lot of them, and I believe (and don't quote me here) that they have the flat beds.

The 747s acquired from NW are still undergoing upgrades, so some have them, some don't. Think the 330s are last in line to get upgraded.

DL is very nice in biz on the 764 and 777LR with Flat Bed. But on the other 767's and 747's, the hard product is rubbish I red.

Thanks, very helpful. BTW do they have the new seats on their 777 fleet? Either the 777-200LR or the 777-200ER, or both? Sorry, this is off topic because not AF-related but I'll stop right after this. (Unless our moderators are indulgent and find this relevant because it enlightens many people that use the Air France-Delta joint venture across the Atlantic).


I regularly check this progress site
http://www.delta.com/traveling_checkin/inflight_services/products/progress.jsp

So all 777 have the new beds.
Wish AF had a similar site even with their sleep flat seats

Very interesting, and for me also informative as it comes from someone who has similar preferences than me (as well as backpain like me).

Just two thoughts: I do sincerely hope that the DL lounge is larger! They operate their Asian hub at NRT serving over 20 destinations with many flights leaving around a couple of "banks". That will fill the lounge. AF only has two flights a day to Paris, even if all P and J and Elite pax from those flights go to the AF lounge one won't need a lot of space. That explains its small size. But it doesn't excuse the poor food and drink offering.

My other question concerns in flight product: how does food really compare? I heard several times that the seats on DL are actually better in Business than on AF Affaires but that food was less good. Plus I imagine many DL FAs to be exactly what many Europeans don't like: a tad to "informal/colloquial", a tad to vulgar and style-less, although that may be different with the airline's Asian crews?

In any case, good to hear you enjoy the flight.

Just landed back home and great to see so many posts (even at 1am).
regarding AF NRT lounge, I went back with my wife. Wines are better than at DL, but absolutely no food (crackers) and the same old white plastic seats. P is a dark corner cordoned off. AF lounge is also used by KL and VN, but I agree that the smaller size is justified. But they have so many Gold and Plat that the lounge gets very crowded. BTW an AF gold was trying to do lounge hopping (lounges are 10 meters away) but was turned down by the DL staff and sent to the AF lounge ("capacity control").

DL is putting its flat bed where competition requires it, so Asia is a priority. CDG will be one of the last destination to get it given AF competition/collaboration. But DL is in the midst of retrofitting fat beds, while AF has not yet made plans to start. The basic motivation of my post is to reflect on the JV. With AZ and DL soon offering flat beds and making a serious offer to improve their Business class product, AF will soon be a laggard.

Service on my short haul flight (4+ hours) was excellent. But a mixture of American and Asian staff based locally, so local standards. They spend a lot of time greeting pax and giving menus (and taking orders) in proper sequence: high SM status first, then high other FFP partners then rev pax, then upgraded pax. Food was good (comparable to AF), but cannot testify for TATL flights. Indeed, I would avoid DL with their antique seat, but would choose them any time if the new flat bed. Whether typical US service (efficient but ...) or typical AF service (aristocratic but more interested in chatting) is "best" is an open question.

DL is putting its flat bed where competition requires it, so Asia is a priority. CDG will be one of the last destination to get it given AF competition/collaboration. .

True, though DL will be putting the flat-bed 763ER on JFK-CDG as of June 1 as TrojanTraveler mentioned above....and NCE-JFK already has it as it is operated by the 767-400ER (the entire 764 fleet has been retrofitted).


Service on my short haul flight (4+ hours) was excellent. But a mixture of American and Asian staff based locally, so local standards. .

The cabin crew on all intra-Asia DL flights (e.g., NRT-HKG, NRT-SIN, etc.) is made up of only two American flight attendants (the purser and a regular FA); the rest of the crew is made up of Japanese and Chinese or Thai or Filipino, etc. FAs (depending on destination)...



BTW do they have the new seats on their 777 fleet?.

Sorry for going all OT here!

DL has 3 different types of flat-bed seats.

All the 777s have the herringbone style seats (which is what brunos had on his NRT-HKG flight):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK_FafqILjk

All 767-400ERs have the same flat-bed seat as LX, AY, and SN: this is what is used on NCE-JFK now, and is also being rolled out on the 767-300ERs (to be on CDG-JFK starting June):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O70WzE7d1XY&list=UUjSrVD08nsyPDCNRjqSV7yA&index=48&feature=plcp

And the 747s (and the A330s later in 2013/14) are getting the reverse herringbone (which allows couples traveling together to face each other, or the window seat to actually look out the window):

http://delta.thedigitalcenter.com/assets/show/21633-delta-full-flat-bed-seats-and-new-interiors-on-boeing-747-400-aircraft-

First, booking on a modern website with modern design, fast, and many functionalities. For example, DL booking website offer all available biz fares with their rules, and combination thereoff. I am sure that there are critics, but compared to the strange outdated AF website, with some antique modules and so unreliable...


I think most of us on the DL board would take AF.us or KLM.com over DL.dumb any day. There is hardly anything modern about DL.dumb beyond its look, and don't even get us started on booking award tickets on DL.dumb.

All I can say to that is that you must rarely or ever use the AF website, it is by far the worst of any major carrier anywhere.

I think most of us on the DL board would take AF.us or KLM.com over DL.dumb any day. There is hardly anything modern about DL.dumb beyond its look, and don't even get us started on booking award tickets on DL.dumb.

Have you used af.com regularly for booking revenue tickets, awards, amanging a booking,..? There is always dumber than dumb.

Sorta like the people that fly AF once or twice and think their food and drink "GREAT". You might get lucky on an AF plane and get a good red or white wine, because if it is not THEY ONLY CARRY one of each wine on each flight, it is widely speculated on the AF thread (filled by people who fly AF with great frequency) that they source their wine from the discount bun at L'Eclerc, for those unfamiliar, something akin to Walmart, worse however as in a country where one can in fact get a decent bottle of wine for under 5 Euros, theirs are worse. (and if you want anything else, good luck, their planes might as well be a 1950's set with a 'Whiskey', a 'Vodka' and little else. As for food, I have just looked and counted and have flown about 140 long and ultra long AF sectors, I would estimate that of that 140, food has been served to me actually STILL FROZEN on at least 30 occasions. It has been served to me seared (and I mean things that should not be seared) on at least another 30 occasions, Steak has been served to me essentially raw on at least 30 occasions (and I mean the bluest of blue), other than the above times I cannot remember any meal to have been at all remarkable, other than the fact that I do like Foie Gras and they often serve that. their salads are normally dries out and their desserts horrible (I like the Sorbets when they have them, but the scoops are miniscule). OTOH the little Fauchon snacks and chocolates are quite good, just good luck in ever getting more of them (which I find amazing that they can have that attitude when often they dump them in the self serve bar halfway through the flight so that no one bothers them).

Lastly someone mentioned FA's. They are okay, when you can find them as has been noted by anyone and everyone who flies AF frequently that after the meal service the run and hide in the galley and gossip and read magazines, remember they are there FOR YOUR SAFETY as their obnoxious pins remind you of everytime that you see them.

As for lounges, forget NRT, I cannot think of any AF lounge that is really the needed size, even the CDG ones, they are always far to small and spartan (the 2E lounge(s) being the only exceptions really.)

Have you used af.com regularly for booking revenue tickets, awards, amanging a booking,..? There is always dumber than dumb.
Regularly for revenue tickets, no, but I have used it on multiple occasions to book or price revenue tickets and found it no worse than DL.dumb. I do find the booking management section clunky at best, and that is one aspect of DL.dumb that tends to work fairly well. (I do insist on assigning seats through the AF/KL systems for AF/KL-operated flights, but I do that on klm.com.) I do use AF.us all the time for award inventory, however. Its flexible date search searches all partners that can be booked online and presents numerous options in most cases. DL.dumb's flexible date search only searches DL flights, despite there being AF/KL/AS inventory that can be booked online. It is also awful at finding routings, so you generally have to search segment-by-segment and then use the multi-city tool to piece it together. Even then, you will often get a "sold out" error despite ExpertFlyer clearly showing that the inventory is still there. If you don't get that error, you'll likely get some massive amount of miles that doesn't match with the route being flown.

Your enthusiasm for the AF website is fun. But many of us experience problems with booking awards. Just had a typical problem two weeks ago. Awards appear available but when you try to book, the system bugs and you cannot complete the booking. often it is because of phantom awards. This is typically the case for multi-segments. Awards are offered but cannot be booked (even by phone). Sometimes it is just a programming bug. But the booking is put on hold and the seats disappear from availability. So you have to wait 24hrs before the seats eventually reappear in the inventory.
Regarding revenur bookings, the AF site is helpless. It only offers you the cheapest fare in each class, with usually the possibility of moving to full fare. There is no option for some more-flexible fares than the cheapest available fare. For longhaul, I have to research all the existing fares by EF and then spend a lot of time on the phone discussing with the agent. For example, the website would offer me a nonrefundable nonchangeable Biz fare, while for a few hundred euros more I could get a variety of fares allowing changes/refund for free or a small penalty.
DL website is much more flexible in terms of pricing, shows seats available before booking and is very efficient in MMB.

Your enthusiasm for the AF website is fun. But many of us experience problems with booking awards. Just had a typical problem two weeks ago. Awards appear available but when you try to book, the system bugs and you cannot complete the booking. often it is because of phantom awards. This is typically the case for multi-segments. Awards are offered but cannot be booked (even by phone). Sometimes it is just a programming bug. But the booking is put on hold and the seats disappear from availability. So you have to wait 24hrs before the seats eventually reappear in the inventory.

I wonder if this explains some of the issues that we DL flyers see with AF/KL award inventory. What do you see in EF when you get this failed booking problem in the FB engine? I'm trying to remember if I've verified FB against EF when DL.dumb bombs out. I think I have, but maybe there are multiple issues at play. I do suggest that you try looking for award inventory on DL.dumb before hating on the AF site too much in this regard, as DL.dumb fully lives up to its name. This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHDfkI6NNW8) recently created by javabytes shows a very, very, very typical booking experience on DL.dumb. For as many deficiencies as the AF award engine has, it's still the #1 tool that we DL people recommend for starting award searches (as long as not doing US East Coast to Asia, since it always wants to route via AMS/CDG and DL doesn't like that).


Regarding revenur bookings, the AF site is helpless. It only offers you the cheapest fare in each class, with usually the possibility of moving to full fare. There is no option for some more-flexible fares than the cheapest available fare. For longhaul, I have to research all the existing fares by EF and then spend a lot of time on the phone discussing with the agent. For example, the website would offer me a nonrefundable nonchangeable Biz fare, while for a few hundred euros more I could get a variety of fares allowing changes/refund for free or a small penalty.
DL website is much more flexible in terms of pricing, shows seats available before booking and is very efficient in MMB.

Those are all very valid criticisms of the AF system vs. the DL one. (Although the DL seat selection process has been notoriously buggy. It seems a bit better lately, unless you're trying to pick a seat on an AF/KL flight.) I know DL people gripe about only being offered A fares for PV when they need W or S to upgrade with miles or a SWU. Still, DL is far from ideal, as it regularly will not show flights on which there is inventory. For instance, I was booking a multi-city involving FAR-BOS via MSP and every single pair of validly connected flights that day was available in U according to EF (and could be booked through Orbitz). However, DL.dumb would only show the pre-0600 departure out of FAR, which I wanted absolutely nothing to do with. A lot of FTers swear by using Kayak or Hipmunk to search for DL flights, since they will somehow find things that DL's general search won't, even though they then direct you through to DL to book. I've taken to just searching on ITA and then using Skype to call from London to the medallion line in the US if I have even the slightest issue.

Maybe what we need is DL to help AF with their revenue booking process and AF to help DL with a functional award calendar (and the ability to book more partners than AF/KL online). Oh, wait, that would require more than lip service about an alliance providing seamless travel opportunities :rolleyes:

Thanks for your comments. I have only used DL website a few times, so my review is not comprehensive and might be lucky.
As you know, DL (and other US airlines) are subject to a lot of bashing in Europe and Asia. So, my reaction was one of surprise when I experienced it recently. This might explain my enthusiasm.

Regarding AF awards, I always check on EF first (I love EF). But one must remember that AFKL are playing games and the POS is important for awards too.

As for food, I have just looked and counted and have flown about 140 long and ultra long AF sectors,

Ultra long AF sectors ? :confused::confused::confused:

Last I looked JFK-CDG is around the 7 hour mark. CDG-SIN is roughly 11 hours.

I broadly agree with all of hfly's comments. Cost-cutting has hit food and wine badly in the past couple of years.
And there is indeed a big difference between long haul (JFK-CDG in 7 hours) and ultra long haul (SIN or HKG -CDG in 13 hours). What can be tolerable in a 7 hours flight (e.g. back pain and uncaring service) becomes unacceptable during 13 hours (and the large amount of money paid). The overall AF experience in ultra long haul has become dismal, and I do a dozen of those every year. Luckily, I can choose my airline so I rarely have to suffer. I am happy that US airlines are starting to provide a better product as TATL was were competition was weak in terms of quality.

That video is funny. I especially like the soundtrack, it added so much to the vid!

But truth be told, this (dl.dumb vs af.us) is really a case of the grass is greener.

Cost-cutting has hit food and wine badly in the past couple of years.

Only the food offered to passengers. ;)

Shocking, I know, but I've found DL's business class to be better than AF's in nearly all areas for a while now, starting with the time Delta brought in the great soft product improvements (pillow, catering etc).

Even the old-style cradle seats are so plush, it almost makes up for their not being flat beds. Not that AF have 180 flat beds. AF's Affaires seat isn't totally bad, but it isn't great in any position.

Delta are also the big winners when it comes to layout: no middle seat in J, regardless of configuration or aircraft. AF's horrible 777s? No thanks!