KLM Flying Dutchman - Volunteer Passenger to be offloaded on KLM

Dear all,
If the flight is overbooked completely, is it possible you can volunteer at the check-in desk to be offloaded and be put on the next flight? If so, what compensation are they will to give you?

Sincerely,

SB

You really do seem to be keen to travel on flights that depart later than the one you are actually booked on... :D

But the check-in desk is not where such an "offer" should be made. While check-in is still open, it is still unlikely that the flight will be over-full - even if all passengers have checked in, it often happens at AMS, where a large proportion of passengers are connecting, that it won't become clear until just before boarding whether they will have a full cabin or not, due to the late arrival of another incoming aircraft (and we've had threads here where people arrive at the boarding gate in time but are told that their seat has been given away and they can't have it back).

The place to make the offer is at the boarding gate. Though "offering" is perhaps a little strange - I have never experienced KLM asking for volunteers to be offloaded (though I have, on a few occasions, been upgraded to business as a result of an over-sold economy cabin).

Chances of this happening are so incredibly small, that its probably not even worth asking/looking for.

First they will upgrade people to business. Second they will put people in the middle seats for the rows with upgraded pax. 3rd they might leave people behind, but honestly..I have never ever seen it happening.

I have never experienced KLM asking for volunteers to be offloaded (though I have, on a few occasions, been upgraded to business as a result of an over-sold economy cabin).

Only once I experencied that KLM asked waiting passengers for volunteers. That was at CUR; volunteers could stay 2 days longer on KLM's dime. But I just changed my ticket to leave CUR one day earlier, because my work was done and my family was waiting for me. If it was only one day... But due to the location they had no problem finding volunteers.

Oh, by the way, the airline is under no obligation to give you anything in a case of voluntary denied boarding. (You offered to stay behind, it wasn't the airline's decision to single you out).

Only when you are chosen randomly and against your will (involuntary denied boarding) is it set out what you are entitled to receive in terms of compensation.

Usually, when an airline starts asking for volunteers, they do make an offer (usually a business class seat on the next flight, and a travel voucher, though the inducements will of course vary by circumstance). But if you were to walk up and offer before any hint of a requirement to leave someone behind - then, you would be doing it for free, no?

It is indeed rare for this to happen on KLM - but it does happen, though generally only in unusual circumstances - for example, when they have more passengers than expected due to earlier irrops, or perhaps an aircraft/schedule change.

A couple of years ago the AMS-NWI route was reduced from four flights a day to three, and my husband was due to fly home on the first day of the new schedule. All NWI flights on that day were heavily overbooked (because they had to squeeze four into three, and it was the end of the UK Half-Term Holiday so lots of people were travelling home). He volunteered, and got a night at a hotel, and a discount voucher, and an "upgrade" to what was then Europe Select... and ended up wasting hours trying to claim the miles for the upgraded flight which had failed to credit because they had changed his booking into a non-earning fare bucket.

As for being asked to volunteer at check-in (as opposed to the gate) - this probably doesn't happen much now, with most people checking in online and the airline not knowing who is actually there until boarding time... but it used to be the norm in the old days.

Only once, years ago at GVA, they announced at the gate that they were overbooked by 2 and offered a later flight and a few hundred euro's (don't know if it was in cash or voucher).

Tempted but couldn't leave granny alone! :D

But if you were to walk up and offer before any hint of a requirement to leave someone behind - then, you would be doing it for free, no?

Cheeky irishguy28! ;) And yes, I echo what others have said. In short:

- overbooking is really hard (nearly impossible) for us customers to guess

- if the airline knows that they are likely to be overbooked on the flight (e.g as others have mentioned, IRROPS make it obvious or aircraft change etc) they are likely to ask everyone at check in or have a notice asking if people would accept to be put on the next flight against compensation IF overbooking is confirmed. If this happens, the hypothetical volunteers are likely to be checked in anyway and given standby boarding cards, meaning that if there is a seat for them on board afterall they may in fact be 'punished' with a less good seat

- 'final' VDB'ers will typically be confirmed at the gate and offer some compensation (typically seat on the next flight - but I would say not necessarily in an upgraded class - plus compensation in cash or double the value in vouchers. But other versions have existed. E.g. once I was proposed no compensation at all but a bump to P on AF-there is no hard and fast rule).

- if there are not enough VDB'ers, the person responsible for the flight will start looking for Involuntary DB'ers. At that stage, passengers won't get a choice and compensation will depend on local rules and practice (i.e. in many cases on KLM reg 261/2004 will apply, but not, for instance in the case of a BKK-TPE segment or other non-EU segments).

- I think that volunteering without being asked could lead to confusing/uncertain results. Some agents may put a note on your check in file and people handling hypothetical overbooking afterwards might think of checking but equally the agent might not know what to do with the info, or by the time overbooking is confirmed the person in charge might not even look at your case (because you are elite plus or because of certain flight connection priorities/solutions) or again they may consider you 'wanted' to change flights and thus consider that they are doing you a favour (after all, think of how many people every day ask them if they can fly on another flight without paying the change penalties!)

So I would personally wait to hear and volunteer if/when they ask for volunteers. Also as others have mentioned, airlines treat fewer and fewer cases as overbooking as they will often prefer to reroute a passenger on another airline (easier and easier with joint ventures and partnerships) which will often cost them much less and will inconvenience the passenger less (e.g. you are booked on JFK-AMS-FCO leaving at 21.00 and arriving at 14.00, they reroute you on JFK-CDG-FCO leaving at 22.00 and arriving at 14.30 or even on JFK-FCO direct leaving at 22.00 and arriving at 09.00 etc).

- if there are not enough VDB'ers, the person responsible for the flight will start looking for Involuntary DB'ers. At that stage, passengers won't get a choice and compensation will depend on local rules and practice (i.e. in many cases on KLM reg 261/2004 will apply, but not, for instance in the case of a BKK-TPE segment or other non-EU segments).

I thought EU261/2004 applied world-wide if the operating carriere is based in the EU?

On a flight TO the EU, the rule is only valid on a Europe based airline as I understand it too.

On a flight TO the EU, the rule is only valid on a Europe based airline as I understand it too.

This is correct, but I was querying earlier information which suggested that it doesn't apply on flights operated by EU carriers entirely outside the EU (for example, if someone gets on at an intermediate stop)

This is correct, but I was querying earlier information which suggested that it doesn't apply on flights operated by EU carriers entirely outside the EU (for example, if someone gets on at an intermediate stop)

Well if a pax wants to fly from BKK to TPE, it is not a departure point in the EU so the regulation will not apply.

If he flies from TPE to BKK, he bought a intra-Asia ticket, not in anyway TO the EU (although technically the flight continues to the EU, 'his' flight doesn't) so the regulation will not apply here also from my point of view.

This is correct, but I was querying earlier information which suggested that it doesn't apply on flights operated by EU carriers entirely outside the EU (for example, if someone gets on at an intermediate stop)

Flights that operate entirely outside the EU can probably never be made subject to EU law, regardless of who the operating carrier is.

At least, Article 3 (Scope) (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:046:0001:0007:en:PDF) clearly restricts the benefits of EU261/2004 to passengers on flights departing from a community airport (regardless of operating carrier and regardless of destination), and to passengers on flights operated by EU carriers that depart from an airport outside the EU and that are to arrive at an EU airport.

Back in October last year, I was travelling to MUC (Oktoberfest ;)) with a couple of pals; just about when boarding (at AMS) was due to start, one of the gate agents asked for a volunteer to be put on the next flight, and offered (IIRC) €150 compensation (or €250 if taken as a AFKL voucher), as the flight was overbooked.

This seemed incredible for a 3-hour delay! Alas, they only wanted one volunteer, and there was quite a dash to the desk between a number of pax.

Once on the plane, I noticed that the middle seats in the C-zone were still kept empty!

-- Henry

Once on the plane, I noticed that the middle seats in the C-zone were still kept empty!

-- Henry

A feature of the new Europe Business Class introduced in March 2011 is that the middle seat is kept free. Therefore, KLM would not seat passengers in the middle seat in the EBC cabin.

http://i40.tinypic.com/35070g7.jpg

A feature of the new Europe Business Class introduced in March 2011 is that the middle seat is kept free. Therefore, KLM would not seat passengers in the middle seat in the EBC cabin.

http://i40.tinypic.com/35070g7.jpg

There is an argument that they'd be better off downgrading all the EBC passengers to Economy and filling those seats than leaving people behind. That's certainly the way the UK railway tends to deal with things - if Standard is impracticably full, declassify First, that way at least everyone gets to travel.

Neil

On my flight from LHR to AMS this afternoon, they asked for volunteers to travel on the later flight - but only offered €75

On my flight from LHR to AMS this afternoon, they asked for volunteers to travel on the later flight - but only offered €75Any takers?

Johan

They announced a few minutes later that they had had enough volunteers - so yes.

You really have to laugh at how KL lives up to its caricature in terms of meanness.

You would tell me that KL recycle food trays to reuse unopened sugar or salt sachets that I would not be surprised.

I wonder what amount of money people consider generous in such a case. There are more then 10 flights a day, meaning the delay will be minimal.

Most other airlines offer the standard Reg 261/2004 compensation in this case even though they do not have to. Offering a lower amount but offering other benefits, eg, an upgrade on the rerouted flight, would seem acceptable to me too. If the rerouting resulted in arriving no later than 2 hrs from the originally scheduled arrival time, the Reg 261/2004 amount would have been €125 anyway. I would have expected them to offer at least that. Just scraping off €50 from that does play up to the cliché of the Dutch being mean.

Well, the way I look at it is that someone who volunteers is "happier" than someone who is involuntarily denied boarding - and therefore should not have the same expectation as to reimbursement.

I don't think this is mean, so much as logical. If KLM can find people willing to give up their seats for a lesser amount, that is better for the airline (and better for those passengers who otherwise would have been involuntarily offloaded).

€75 may not be a lot (though it's an amount that represents almost 60% of the cheapest economy return fare on the route), but for a "delay" of just 80 minutes, I can see why the offer was deemed acceptable to some. (There was also a higher-value (perhaps €100 or €125? I forget) AF/KL/DL travel voucher on offer, instead of the lower cash amount).

When I was student, I was once asked to be volunteer and I loved it: I had plenty of time, no one was waiting for me.

I got one more holiday day paid by Air France, one free night in a good hotel (think it was Le Méridien) and flew back in business despite I had a very cheap ticket.

It makes sense for the airline to start low, and only increase the amount when no volunteers are found. No reason to directly plump down 400 euros if people are happy with 75..

I don't think this is mean, so much as logical. If KLM can find people willing to give up their seats for a lesser amount, that is better for the airline (and better for those passengers who otherwise would have been involuntarily offloaded).Meanness and logic or rationality are not necessarily incompatible
.
Clearly, it is rational for an airline to spend as little as possible on VDB compensation. Therefore, if an airline can get away within giving €0.50 for a VDB to a pax and the pax accepts, it is entirely rational for the airline to do so. Whether this is generous or mean, however, is another matter and largely an issue of comparing to what others do in similar situations.

If other airlines normally offer the full IDB compensation in these cases, then offering less is comparatively mean. In the same way as, if all restaurants in an area customarily offers a chupito/digestif after a meal, the one restaurant that does not do it will be comparatively mean. It does not mean that it is irrational for them to do it: they may be able to attract the same clientele because their food is considered better, or the view is nicer, or because most people do not really care etc... but this is entirely unrelated to whether it is generous or mean for them to do what they do.

What I was highlighting here was that KL is doing something which is somewhat outside the norms of what airlines tend to do and outside the norms in a somewhat mean direction: they give less than what most airlines give in similar situations. It does not mean that it is irrational for them to do so but it IS less generous than others and, in being so, it does play up to the clichés about Dutch meanness.

Is there not a difference between IDB and VDB compensation?

Nowhere is it stated that the VDB compensation needs to be a certain amount; the IDB has to meet certain criteria.

You cannot blame the airline for not willing to shell out the high amount if people are willing to settle for less (when there is no legal obligation).

There is; but like NickB explains KLM does offer a lot less than others in an VDB situation. Totally explainable, logical and legit...but still less generous than others. Which might make people complain.

There is; but like NickB explains KLM does offer a lot less than others in an VDB situation. Totally explainable, logical and legit...but still less generous than others. Which might make people complain.

Why would people complain? :confused:

On a recent flight to FCO, the offer was about E250 (cash, forgot the voucher amount, which was of course higher) for the next flight that departed 3-4 hours later. I thought that was pretty generous.

It is supply and demand, depending (e.g.) on wait for and seat availability on next flights, and number of overbooked pax on specific flight.

So it appears that, in order to come to the conclusion that KLM are being "mean", would require the knowledge that "most airlines" first look for volunteers to take the minimum amounts set out in the EU261/2004 for involuntary denied boarding.

I'm a fairly frequent flyer, but I didn't know that most airlines would do such a thing.

Are those airlines then not then opening themselves up to the charge of being mean when, in the scenario that they still end up having to deny travel to some passengers, those who are involuntary denied boarding discover that they are still only getting what was offered? That, to me, would definitely make those passengers think the airline involved was being mean. Or do all these other airlines then offer (far) more than what they are legally obliged to in the case that people are involuntarily denied boarding?

Again, I don't think KLM were being mean in this case. It was announced that the wait was only another 80 minutes (travel at 16:10 rather than 14:50) until the next flight.

On a recent flight to FCO, the offer was about E250 (cash, forgot the voucher amount, which was of course higher) for the next flight that departed 3-4 hours later. I thought that was pretty generous.This is the standard IDB amount, i.e. what most airlines would normally offer and what KL would be obliged to give if no volunteer came forward and they had to IDB someone. It might be fair enough but I would struggle to describe that as "generous."

Again, I don't think KLM were being mean in this case. It was announced that the wait was only another 80 minutes (travel at 16:10 rather than 14:50) until the next flight.One can of course define meanness whichever way one chooses and one's person's meanness is another's prudence or reasonableness.

It seems to me that the only way to endow meanness with some degree of objectivity is by comparison to what others do, i.e. by reference to common practice. If it is standard practice in a given locale to, say, tip a hairdresser €50, then tipping that hairdresser €20 would probably be regarded as rather mean. OTOH, if it is common practice not to tip at all, giving €20 would probably be somewhat generous. Describing €20 as "generous" or "mean" without reference to what is normal practice does not mean much, imo.

Similarly, If it is standard practice among airlines to give the standard IDB amount even in cases of VDB, then it seems to me that an airline which gives less, while perfectly entitled to do so, can meaningfully be described as somewhat mean compared to other airlines. Whether one, as a passenger, is aware of that or not makes no difference to the issue of whether it is mean or generous. One's awareness may have an impact on the likelihood of acceptance but that is a different issue.