TalkBoard Topics - Motion Passed: Create a Peru Forum

I'd like to propose a forum for Travel&Dining: Destination >> The World >> Peru

Peru has a growing economy, perhaps the fastest growing economy within South America. It's already a highly interesting tourist destination and an increasing foreign investment market in this region.

Peru is one of the 17 megadiverse countries in the planet (group of countries that harbor the majority of the Earth's species and are therefore considered extremely biodiverse). Amazon Rainforest and River is nowadays a provisional winner in the New7Wonders of Nature list.

The Unesco World Heritage List includes these peruvian sites:
City of Cuzco
Historic Sanctuary of Machu Picchu
Chavin (Archaeological Site)
Huascarán National Park
Chan Chan Archaeological Zone
Manú National Park
Historic Centre of Lima
Abiseo River National Park
Lines and Geoglyphs of Nasca and Pampas de Jumana
Historical Centre of the City of Arequipa
Sacred City of Caral-Supe

Peru's Intangible Cultural Heritage list includes:
Pilgrimage to the sanctuary of the Lord of Qoyllurit’i
Huaconada, ritual dance of Mito
The scissors dance
The Oral Heritage and Cultural Manifestations of the Zápara People (shared with Ecuador)
Taquile and its Textile Art

And peruvian cuisine is to be added to Unesco’s Intangible Heritage of Humanity list in 2012, we hope. Peru is a country that holds not just a variety of ethnic mixes since times ranging from the Inca Empire, the Viceroyalty and the Republic, but also a climatic variety of 28 individual climates. The mixing of cultures and the variety of climates differ from city to city so geography, climate, culture and ethnic mix determine the variety of local cuisine. That's why this country boasts one of the finest cuisines in the Americas.

Lima Airport is becoming a hub and it's located in a strategic position in the continent. Flying to 36 international destinations and 17 within Peru, in 2011 the airport served 11,904,553 passengers, growing over 16% when compared to the previous year. For 2nd consecutive year, it was presented the "Best Airport in South America" award by Skytrax. In addition Priority Pass announced in March 2010 that Sumaq VIP Lounge had been voted by its members "Lounge of the Year 2010" for second consecutive year among 600 VIP lounges in the world.

Peru ties Colombia with over 1800 species of birds, more than 85% of which are permanent residents. Peru is second only to Brazil in the number of endemic birds and second only to Indonesia in the number of bird species with restricted geographical ranges. Several rainforest lodges in Peru offer superb birding, each with a list of over 550 species. So it's a paradise for birds watchers.

And of course Cusco and Machu Picchu. Machu Picchu was declared a Peruvian Historical Sanctuary in 1981 and a UNESCO World Heritage Site in 1983. In 2007, Machu Picchu was voted one of the New Seven Wonders of the World in a worldwide Internet poll.

Peruvian goverment is focused in increasing responsible and sustainable tourism.

I have not found (english language) enough useful forums dedicated to Peru, and I'm sure this would be very beneficial for FT members planning to go to any place in Peru, for business, adventure, gastronomic, luxury, leisure or eco travels. I'm very interested in this forum and to support and promote travels in my country, so count on me as moderator if this forum is approved. I'm sure also there would be several entities interested in advertise in Flyertalk forum.

Search within the South America Forum has resulted in following results:
Search Keyword(s) Peru = 252 times
Search Keyword(s) Lima = 227 times
Search Keyword(s) Cuzco = 120 times; Cusco = 111
Search Keyword(s) Machu (Picchu) = 111

Regards

Search within the South America Forum has resulted in following results:
Search Keyword(s) Peru = 252 times
Search Keyword(s) Lima = 227 times
Search Keyword(s) Cuzco = 120 times; Cusco = 111
Search Keyword(s) Machu (Picchu) = 111


I'm guessing this is for the almost 14 year history of FlyerTalk?

Please also see http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/918161-what-talkboard-how-new-forums-other-suggestions-considered.html

I'm not opposed to the idea, partially because I've always wanted to visit Machu Picchu, but at the same time, I'm not 100% sure that there's defined demand for a standalone forum.

Just as an fyi, here's the pertinent info bhatnasx was referring to with his link:

"The following are qualitative criteria that the TalkBoard believes are useful to consider when evaluating proposals to create, close, split, or move forums. Whenever a forum change is discussed on the TalkBoard Topics, the TalkBoard encourages posters to fully address these criteria in addition to any other reasons supporting or opposing the change.

1. Will the forum be (or is it now) beneficial to FlyerTalk?

2. Will the new forum benefit a relationship with FlyerTalk? E.g., does the forum provide value for FT members, such as a friendly ear highly placed in the company

3. Is FT the best place to discuss this subject?

4. Is there a passionate following? This is essential in order to provide dedicated expert helpers to get questions answered.

5. Is a critical mass of posts and readers anticipated or existing? We need adequate traffic to keep everyone visiting frequently. One living forum is more valuable than two mostly dead ones.

6. Is this the best place on FlyerTalk for this subject? This is the classification issue. The answer depends primarily on achieving and maintaining critical mass. It also depends on whether or where the discussion might (or does) occur in the absence of the forum.

7. For proposals to split a forum, is the split expected to improve the signal to noise ratio? Why?

Procedural Statements by the TalkBoard

8. The TalkBoard does not anticipate using automatic sunsetting of forums, preferring instead to create forums only when we they are strongly expected to succeed."

Cheers.

I'm guessing this is for the almost 14 year history of FlyerTalk?

The search was a default one, that I understand is any date, though not sure if it searches the whole database. Anyway I wouldn't count on the oldest posts, cause the tourism in this country has been growing rapidly in recent years. I mean 14 years ago there were, for example, just two weekly flights to Spain, maybe 3 or 4 weekly to Europe (KLM & Iberia). Nowadays there are 2 daily flights to Madrid, Amsterdam; Air France has returned to Peru. United, Lan, AA, Delta, has also increased their US - Peru flights. Only Houston, Dallas and Miami were the gates to enter the States 15 years ago. Right now you can fly directly to SFO, LAX, JFK, EWR, ATL, etc. And Callao as a cruises stop is relatively recent too. That's why I found very interesting and valuable if there is a Peru forum.

Answering the criterias FlyerTalk asks,

1. Will the forum be beneficial to FlyerTalk?
As I understood Flyertalk's mission is to help travelers. I've already found several members very interested in Peru with specific questions so I think it would be valuable to count on a dedicated forum. I've seen several advertisement sections within the forums pages, and I'm sure there will be people, business, interested in advertise in this forum, with Peru focused services. Each month you find new hotels (any category), tour operators, travel agencies, insurances, etc. I think this will be beneficial to Flyertalk too.

2. Will the new forum benefit a relationship with FlyerTalk? E.g., does the forum provide value for FT members, such as a friendly ear highly placed in the company.
I think this may be a good opportunity for any FT member interested in traveling to Peru, as well for FT managers.

3. Is FT the best place to discuss this subject?
It would be similar to the China, Argentina, Brasil or New york forums so the answer is yes. And since Peru is classified as megadiverse, the probability of capting more members interested in any of the destinations it offers (desert, beaches, mountains, jungle, hiking, skiing, rafting, boating, sandboard, bird watching, rain forest lodges, experiential tourism, archeology, history, architecture, gastronomy, business travels (for mining, industries, gas/oil companies, etc.), dances, art, jewelry, festivals, etc..) is very large as you can see. I mean, please don't miss my point in this paragraph, I'm not trying to advertise how beautiful my country is, but to emphasize that there is a huge variety of topics that can be discussed in this forum.

4. Is there a passionate following? This is essential in order to provide dedicated expert helpers to get questions answered.
Yes I have found members replying to people consulting their itineraries, restaurant recommendations, transport, etc.. with valuable information. There is a high volume of people each day loving more Peru. People passionate about this country are appearing each day.

5. Is a critical mass of posts and readers anticipated or existing? We need adequate traffic to keep everyone visiting frequently. One living forum is more valuable than two mostly dead ones.
Anticipated I think. As I said there is kind of an explosion of this tourism activity and interests. Yes Machu Picchu and Colca canyon were always there as well as their visits and excursions, but the interest and the investments the government is doing right now to attract travelers is something never seen before, and now in a more ordered, safety, and organized way.

6. Is this the best place on FlyerTalk for this subject?
Similar to Brazil, Mexico or Argentina, I consider valuable to count on a dedicated forum. My reasons are the same ansered in question 3.

7. For proposals to split a forum, is the split expected to improve the signal to noise ratio? Why?
I'm not sure if I get this question. What I think is that a dedicated forum will give the opportunity of posting, and specially finding (to people looking for any kind of info related to Peru) more accurate data, and easier. Better organized sticky threads, better focused, etc. About off topics or spams, I think there is always the risk of them, in dedicated or global forums.

Thanks

Thanks for answering the questions. Provides input to TB members who might not be familiar with it/need more information.

Cheers.

Thanks for answering the questions. Provides input to TB members who might not be familiar with it/need more information.

I can see OP's attempt to address the questions and I do read quite a few "generic" responses. But I am still not sure if those answers are unique and/or specific enough for Peru.

I haven't visited our South America Forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/south-america-483/) good enough to know if Peru dominates the forum discussion. OTOH, I do frequent Asia Forum. I would advice OP to look into an old proposal for Korea Forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/999080-proposal-korean-travel-forum.html), which fails to materialize. If I were the OP, I would do my best to learn from the failure and conduct more research to strengthen arguments for creating a Peru Forum on FT.

No doubt there's a lot to see and do in Peru. More importantly, does the current FT traffic justify or validate this request?

I have often wondered why Brazil and Argentina get singled out for their own forums in South America and whatever the criteria for creating those was is also probably good for Perú.

Perú is a positively mainstream tourist destination by anyone's standards in a way that its stablemates in the South America forum are not. Suriname, Paraguay and Bolivia simply don't figure on the radar in the same way.

LIM is already a hub, it is a LAN hub and FT already has a LAN forum.

The stats that Villavic has pulled out for "mentions" of Lima, Cusco, Perú etc. are probably meaningless. FT's search function sucks and it probably means FT needs some IT input rather than Perú shouldn't have its own forum.

Villavic is a great ambassador for Perú and if he wants a forum then why not? My only doubt would be where would someone post the recurring thread "Perú, Chile or Ecuador?"

Villavic is a great ambassador for Perú and if he wants a forum then why not? My only doubt would be where would someone post the recurring thread "Perú, Chile or Ecuador?"

Well, from the Chileno perspective (not mine, just observations over the years), "They're short, they're ugly, they're taking our jobs" would be a reason to perhaps segregate Peru items in its own forum. But if Peru gets a forum, Chile will need at least 2, and Argentina will probably require at least 5. :o

Well, from the Chileno perspective (not mine, just observations over the years), "They're short, they're ugly, they're taking our jobs" would be a reason to perhaps segregate Peru items in its own forum. But if Peru gets a forum, Chile will need at least 2, and Argentina will probably require at least 5. :o

As you can see in my first posts I avoided the comparision of Peru with other South America countries. I don't want to fall in the "Peru deserves a forum more than..." discussion. I just listed the reasons for a forum according the questions I read in previous posts.

I'm not sure either if this is the place to discuss or evalute the historic wealth and social-political issues of each country. I just think there is a lot of ugly people, short, etc.. in Peru, Ecuador, Chile, Argentina, India, US, UK, and the whole planet. Does Peru have something to be ashamed, from past or present? Sure! And Does Argentina and Chile? Of course!! As US does, Cuba, France, China, etc...

Not sure if all chilean people share that chileno perspective you mention. Probably a lot do, but if chilean corporations love to invest in Peru (retail, banking, airlines), I guess there must be something good in this land, beyond the rich gastronomy chileans love to adopt.

I found this relevant...

The Secretary General of the United Nations World Tourism Organization, Taleb Rifai, described Peru as an increasingly recognized destination in the world. Rifai met with Peru's Vice Minister of Tourism during his visit to the Peruvian stand at the ongoing Internationale Tourismus Börse (ITB) in Berlin, Germany.

This, plus the new I read last week about Wall Street celebrating first annual Peru Day at NYSE, featuring a huge Peru brand logo on the New York Stock Exchange building, enforce my idea that a Peru forum would be beneficial for this website and members interested in traveling to Peru.

http://www.andina.com.pe/Espanol/noticia-wto-peru-seen-as-increasingly-recognized-destination-403267.aspx

Is it possible to move all country specific South America forums into a South America subforum?

Destination>>The World>>South America>>Peru (or Brazil or Argentina or Chile, etc.)

Country specific information can be within each country and regional information can be held in the broader S.A. forum. This goes the same for other world regions such as Europe.

As you can see in my first posts I avoided the comparision of Peru with other South America countries. I don't want to fall in the "Peru deserves a forum more than..." discussion. I just listed the reasons for a forum according the questions I read in previous posts.

I'm not sure either if this is the place to discuss or evalute the historic wealth and social-political issues of each country. I just think there is a lot of ugly people, short, etc.. in Peru, Ecuador, Chile, Argentina, India, US, UK, and the whole planet. Does Peru have something to be ashamed, from past or present? Sure! And Does Argentina and Chile? Of course!! As US does, Cuba, France, China, etc...

Not sure if all chilean people share that chileno perspective you mention. Probably a lot do, but if chilean corporations love to invest in Peru (retail, banking, airlines), I guess there must be something good in this land, beyond the rich gastronomy chileans love to adopt.

I hope you understood I was just trying to be funny. However, sadly, the peruano food I've had in Chile (not at top top restaurants, but in moderate places) has been lacking, substantially!

I hope you understood I was just trying to be funny. However, sadly, the peruano food I've had in Chile (not at top top restaurants, but in moderate places) has been lacking, substantially!

If you like to try foreign food in countries different from the original, try chinese food in Peru! ^;)

And talking about gastronomy, according to the Lima Chamber of Commerce (CCL), restaurants and bars will see $60.5 million during this year’s Easter holidays, thanks to an increase in the number of tourists traveling in Peru.

http://www.peruthisweek.com/news-1739-Peru-Easter-tourism-to-generate-over-60-million-from-restaurants/

To the TB members.. about this proposal, what are the next steps? Do you evaluate this in specific dates? Is there any other step to do? Is there an official answer about it?

Thanks
Villavic

. about this proposal, what are the next steps? Do you evaluate this in specific dates? Is there any other step to do? Is there an official answer about it?

According to the guidelines (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/11201712-post3.html), this is what to expect:

SECTION 4: GENERAL OPERATION, VOTING AND PUBLIC NOTICE PROCEDURES

B. Motions and Seconds

i. Any member of the TalkBoard can raise a topic regarding any issue that falls under the above stated mission of the TalkBoard either in the public TalkBoard Topics forum or in the private TalkBoard forum.
ii. A minumim of 48 hours must elapse after a topic has been raised by a TalkBoard member either in the public TalkBoard Topics forum or in the private TalkBoard forum, before any member of the TalkBoard can make a motion regarding that issue.
iii. Points of order regarding whether a proposed motion falls within the purview of the TalkBoard shall be ruled upon by the President based on these guidelines and the FlyerTalk Terms of Service with the advice of the FlyerTalk Host.
iv. Any member of the TalkBoard can second a motion.

C. Voting Procedures

i. Once a motion has been made and seconded the President shall post a sticky poll thread in the TalkBoard forum calling the question and announcing the vote. The thread shall be titled "Vote: [summary of motion]". In the first post on the sticky poll thread the President shall post the maker and seconder of the motion as well as the voting deadline and then restate the motion that has been made and seconded....

Que risa me diste! (How you made me laugh!) Thank goodness we don't decide fora by national head size... and I will not say any more. :D

Anyway, the OP has have great information from SkiAdcock and lin821, so maybe a nice meal in the local chifa or maybe better some ceviche, anticuchos and picarones, followed by a nice cafecito and prefaced by a Pisco sour... and TalkBoard will take the case under consideration. Like us, TB members are volunteers - they are diverse in work, travel, etc. so it can take some time.

Well, from the Chileno perspective (not mine, just observations over the years), "They're short, they're ugly, they're taking our jobs" would be a reason to perhaps segregate Peru items in its own forum. But if Peru gets a forum, Chile will need at least 2, and Argentina will probably require at least 5. :o

We've brought it up for discussion in the private forum. A # of us are traveling or have some work obligations at the moment, but it is something that's been introduced for discussion.

Cheers.

As I said in the private TB forum, I feel that Villavic did a good job of jumping through the bureaucratic hoops that were set up, and that I am supportive of the forum.

So you need to convince (at least) 5 more TB members to get 'er done. ^

As I said in the private TB forum, I feel that Villavic did a good job of jumping through the bureaucratic hoops that were set up, and that I am supportive of the forum.

So you need to convince (at least) 5 more TB members to get 'er done. ^I'm supportive so that means 4 ;)

If I may chime in ... (and I'm from neither Peru, Chile, Argentina or Brazil so please pardon me here :) )

As someone who frequents parts of South America (both the forum as well as in person due to work travels), I have been trying to participate in the South America forums and contributing to the discussion as much as possible. I do find that Peru and its associated topics do seem to come up, usually in spurts. Maybe it is because of tourist season, maybe seasonal promotions, who knows. But at least for the relatively short time I've been a member of FT, that seems to be the trend.

In addition, there seems to be specific questions and discussions about very peru centric topics that are not general to South America (like obviously Machu Picchu, Lima airport overnight info off the top of my head). There also seems to be a trend of the same questions being repeated.

All said, my gut would be to voice support to the OP (who if I may add, has been wonderfully patient and helpful on the South America forums) and his proposal for a separate Peru forum.

I took a look at the list of "questions" one of the moderators posted earlier and took my own stab at trying to answer them. So, IMHO, here goes ...

Thanks for listening.

1. Will the forum be (or is it now) beneficial to FlyerTalk? (IMHO, yes.)

2. Will the new forum benefit a relationship with FlyerTalk? E.g., does the forum provide value for FT members, such as a friendly ear highly placed in the company (NA?)

3. Is FT the best place to discuss this subject? (Already is being done. Same level of discussion, with less specifics at times, on sites like tripadvisor. I find discussion on FT more direct, useful and to the point.)

4. Is there a passionate following? This is essential in order to provide dedicated expert helpers to get questions answered. (Somewhat chicken and egg. I think a dedicated forum will only make it better. There are a core group of folks who seem to help provide info, exchange ideas. Then there is a transient following of people planning trips. And as Peru tourism grows, this will only improve.)

5. Is a critical mass of posts and readers anticipated or existing? We need adequate traffic to keep everyone visiting frequently. One living forum is more valuable than two mostly dead ones. (Probably same answer I would give in 4 above.)

6. Is this the best place on FlyerTalk for this subject? This is the classification issue. The answer depends primarily on achieving and maintaining critical mass. It also depends on whether or where the discussion might (or does) occur in the absence of the forum. (I think South American -> sub country makes good sense. It is a very large, diverse and populous ... )

7. For proposals to split a forum, is the split expected to improve the signal to noise ratio? Why? (I guess creating Peru much be considered splitting out from South America. I think the SNR would improve given the very specific nature of Peru questions. If the forum is created, I can think of 3 or 4 "stickies" that get created immediately to reduce the noise immediately. )

Procedural Statements by the TalkBoard

8. The TalkBoard does not anticipate using automatic sunsetting of forums, preferring instead to create forums only when we they are strongly expected to succeed."

Is it possible to move all country specific South America forums into a South America subforum?

Destination>>The World>>South America>>Peru (or Brazil or Argentina or Chile, etc.)

Country specific information can be within each country and regional information can be held in the broader S.A. forum. This goes the same for other world regions such as Europe.

I think this is already done with the 2 specific subforums for Brazil and Argentina.

While I can see the reason for having Brazil singled out due to its size, I don't see any reason why Argentina should have its own subforum and not Peru. I have not looked into number of posts relating to each country, but I agree with Villavic that there are dozens of reasons why Peru could get its own subforum, but in the end the only thing that matters is if there are enough FTers around which share the interest for this destination to ensure enough people browing through the posts.

Personally, I'm in favor of having a dedicated place for Peru, despite I'm not Peruvian, nor am I living there, but I'm travelling there about 2x a year and know the country quite well.

I was seating next to a Peruvian physics professors couple weeks back. The description of his homeland landscape and cousine sounded very interesting. I wouldn't mind taking my whole family to visit Peru in the near future. I support the creation of Peru forum.

4. Is there a passionate following? This is essential in order to provide dedicated expert helpers to get questions answered.

Based on nothing more than the number of times I've recommended a visit to Astrid y Gastón, you would definitely categorize me as a passionate follower of all posts pertaining to Peru. ;)

My thoughts as to the main limitation of a separate Peru forum were expressed well by JohnnyColumbia. There seem to be quite a few threads such as "I'm travelling to Peru and Chile next month and need advice." Would all such multi-country threads henceforth belong in the Peru subforum? Also, since I see at least as much activity pertaining to Chile, would the addition of a Peru subforum suggest the need for a Chile subforum?

Regardless, I completely agree that the sentiment that Villavic makes an excellent case!

However, sadly, the peruano food I've had in Chile (not at top top restaurants, but in moderate places) has been lacking, substantially!

To EastBay1K: I recommend trying El Otro Sitio at the Parque Arauco mall. It's not in the same league as A&G, but it's surprisingly good food for a reasonable price.

As long as there's a knowledgable person willing to moderate, I don't see any harm -- and I see a heck of a lot of good -- in having a Peru forum. This is obviously a major South American tourist destination, and all evidence suggests visitation will continue to grow. It benefits Flyertalkers enormously when we're able to exchange information in an efficient manner. Personally, I think EVERY country that attracts a significant number of tourists should have their own forum in Flyertalkers are interested. It's kind of a "you know it when you see it" rule. Paraguay does NOT deserve its own forum. Peru and Chile do. Ecuador is probably a close case.

Now that Argentina and Brazil are sub-categories of South America, I believe that Peru would be a useful addition as there are many repeat queries that tend to get lost: the Chile or Peru posts can then be dealt with at the SA level. There is certainly sufficient knowledge of and passion for Peru to provide a specific and informed response to most queries I can imagine.

I'm in favor as well. So that's at least 3 yes votes.

Moved by RichMSN and seconded by SkiAdcock

"Talkboard recommends the creation of a Peru Forum."

This vote will close on April 17, 2012, at 5:05pm or after all TalkBoard members have registered their vote, whichever comes first

Per the TalkBoard Guidelines:

A motion shall pass if at least two-thirds of the yes or no votes cast by TalkBoard members are ‘yes’ and a majority of the total TalkBoard membership votes 'yes.'

The purpose of posting voting topics in the public TalkBoard Topics forum is to solicit member feedback on any motions that are up for a vote and to allow for comments after a vote is made. It is at the sole discretion of the individual TalkBoard members whether they choose to post in the public discussion thread, there being no requirement to do so.

So while there is already a thread and discussion on this general topic and it is safe to assume that TalkBoard members have reviewed that thread, this thread is about this specific motion.

Please feel free to post questions, comments or any other sort of feedback in this thread, or in the other discussion thread http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1321501-proposal-destination-peru-forum.html

Since we're Peru bound (thank you BA), I think a Peru forum is a good idea. A dedicated forum will encourage new threads. @:-) I like having everything organized, especially since search isn't 100% perfect.

dh

As promised, I have already voted in support of this proposal. I realize it will likely be two full weeks before the vote is final, but it's my hope that if enough of us vote early for this 'no-brainer' proposal it can get up and running well before the last TB member votes which, as I say, I can only assume will be at the very last minute.

As promised, I have already voted in support of this proposal. I realize it will likely be two full weeks before the vote is final, but it's my hope that if enough of us vote early for this 'no-brainer' proposal it can get up and running well before the last TB member votes which, as I say, I can only assume will be at the very last minute.Make it two votes in support :)

And I make three.

I'm not opposed, but not really for either.

Although folks are pushing for it, there are very few, IMHO, and I'm not 100% the other regional forum doesn't cover it.

I just don't see the demand as yet - so not sure how I'm voting for this one....leaning towards no, but will wait a little bit before casting a vote.

I vote yes. I just came back from a trip to Peru and could have used some specific know-how for planning the trip etc. I was in Argentina on the same trip and that forum was extremely helpful. Thanks!^

I vote yes. ...
Unless you are one of the 9 Talkboard Members, you don't get to vote on TB motions:

Per the TalkBoard Guidelines:

A motion shall pass if at least two-thirds of the yes or no votes cast by TalkBoard members are ‘yes’ and a majority of the total TalkBoard membership votes 'yes.'

I would love to see a Peru specific forum. I am going there in 8 weeks and given the sad state of FT's search functionality (talk about being stuck in the middle ages technologically speaking...), I have had a hard time finding good information.

FT members are among the best for giving tips, tricks and advice. This will be my first trip but it is a country that I plan on visiting regularly so I see a personal advantage to having a Peru specific forum.

Thanks for your consideration

In my opinion, Advanced Search works fairly decently these days. For anyone having difficulty searching on FlyerTalk, I heartily recommend the extensive and helpful thread started by Canarsie in the Technical Issues Forum: Basic Search Within a Forum on FlyerTalk (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/technical-issues/676224-using-search-feature-flyertalk-definitive-thread.html).

One can also use this form (http://www.flyertalk.com/google_search.php) to use Google to search FlyerTalk. Using keywords TalkBoard Topics Peru quickly revealed this thread.

UpperDeckJunkie, you will enjoy Peru, I suspect!

... this 'no-brainer' proposal it can get up and running well before the last TB member votes which, as I say, I can only assume will be at the very last minute.

Is this an admission that you don't have any brains, or just that you didn't use them here. ;) :p

When I have my LIM connection next month, I'll be able to let them know "You were worthy of an FT forum" or "You aren't even worthy of an FT forum" and the masses will look at me with a strange amusement. They'll also wonder why it took years for a LAN forum, but only 15 minutes for a Peru one.

Support this motion. ^

They'll also wonder why it took years for a LAN forum, but only 15 minutes for a Peru one.

Perhaps LAN lead the way ;). My opinion only & speaking just as an FTer, but maybe it's time to let go of the how long it took to get LAN passed & just enjoy the fact that it was passed & is now an active forum.

Cheers.

Just took a look at the SA destinations forum. Of the first 7 recent threads 4 were about Peru. Nuff said.

Ditto'ing DHammer's comment.

FT's utility in planning a Peru trip has been hampered by having to wade thru posts such as "I have 2 weeks for South America - can I do Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Chile and Easter Island in that time?"

Country-specific fora encourage focused questions, which leads to better answers.

Just took a look at the SA destinations forum. Of the first 7 recent threads 4 were about Peru. Nuff said.

That's because the Land of Silver and the Big Place With The Funny Language have already been split off.

Peru forum?? I vote yes! It's about time.

When I have my LIM connection next month, I'll be able to let them know "You were worthy of an FT forum" or "You aren't even worthy of an FT forum" and the masses will look at me with a strange amusement.

Though a "best airport" opinion is probably subjective, or varies with the experience of people, specially those based in internet votes, this may suggest you'll have a good time in LIM: http://www.worldtravelawards.com/award-south-americas-leading-airport-2011
Just on transit, or will you enter the city?

They'll also wonder why it took years for a LAN forum, but only 15 minutes for a Peru one.

You can live in the past.. ;)
I do believe separate forums will motivate more posts than the current common South America. This may be a discussion like Who came first, the chicken or the egg?, but I wouldn't evaluate a new forum idea based in previous posts about it. I think the potential of the topic is far more significative, and a dedicated forum motivates more the activity. I have no idea if that happened when LAN forum was being evaluated but as SkiAdcock said, nowadays is an active forum, and a very active one.

... and a dedicated forum motivates more the activity.

Yes, I agree, and I've been saying this for quite a long time. Fortunately, the current TB incarnation generally agrees.

And my typical stop in LIM is just transit. I probably visit the airport 6 to 8 times a year. If I'm in LIM any longer than 2 hours, I am probably quite unhappy as I'm delayed.

Now, for that Chile forum! ;)

Based on the numbers posted above I don't think it makes sense to create a new forum. There hasn't been enough interest in the 14 years. It isn't that there are so many Peru posts that the Chile posts are getting lost. Creating a new forum doesn't necessarily generate additional traffic or attract more folks.

And here I am also hoping that this passes. Been thinking about burning another bunch of miles for a personal trip to the Paracas region to kick back ... maybe I'll aim for that to be the first post if we get the standalone forum! "Seeking information on Paracas region ... "

... maybe I'll aim for that to be the first post if we get the standalone forum! "Seeking information on Paracas region ... "
I am afraid it won't happen. Your yet-to-come-thread will not be the first post/thread in the new forum.

When TB does pass this motion and Peru gets its own forum, all the previous threads about/on Peru will be moved over. Not to mention our Community Director is quite good and efficient to set up a new forum filled with threads when TB passes such motions. Meaning there will be some Peru threads before you are able to start your thread.

Anyhow, enjoy your trip to Paracas region. :)

As mentioned in the other thread about a Peru forum, there really aren't that many threads or posts about Peru if you take into account 14 years of FlyerTalk activity. It isn't as if the Peru posts are so overwhelming the SA Destination forum that people's question about how to visit Peoples Temple in Guyana are getting lost. Just say "no".

<snip>When TB does pass this motion and Peru gets its own forum</snip>

Do you know something the rest of us don't? I don't see anywhere in this thread that passage of the Peru forum is a given, and there has been no "official" word from Sharon or anyone else that there will even be passage, yet. Not to mention it doesn't seem to have overwhelming support like a few of the other recent motions that have come through.

As mentioned in the other thread about a Peru forum, there really aren't that many threads or posts about Peru if you take into account 14 years of FlyerTalk activity. It isn't as if the Peru posts are so overwhelming the SA Destination forum that people's question about how to visit Peoples Temple in Guyana are getting lost. Just say "no".
Somehow I got the feeling that traffic and/or number of existing threads isn't that big a determining factor for this Peru motion, as far as this current TB is concerned.

<snip>When TB does pass this motion and Peru gets its own forum</snip>
Do you know something the rest of us don't? I don't see anywhere in this thread that passage of the Peru forum is a given, and there has been no "official" word from Sharon or anyone else that there will even be passage, yet. Not to mention it doesn't seem to have overwhelming support like a few of the other recent motions that have come through.
No, it's just my gut feeling, seeing how soon this proposal moved onto a motion and how some TBers commented in both TB threads. I know as much as you do from reading the public TB Topics Forum.

IMHO, even though this OP (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1321501-proposal-destination-peru-forum.html) and other supporters for Peru Forum had tried to address the criteria for creating new forum (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/11201697-post2.html), those answers were still too generic (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/18149875-post6.html) to justify a Peru Forum at this moment of time on FT. TB made it a motion anyway.

...Creating a new forum doesn't necessarily generate additional traffic or attract more folks.

Not that I agree with them but some think otherwise. Maybe it's chicken-or-the-egg thingy. I don't know.

Personally I think it's a very weak argument to say "build it, they will come" when discussing the possibility of creating a new forum on FT.

Shouldn't the other thread be closed? What is the point of two parallel threads?

Somehow I got the feeling that traffic and/or number of existing threads isn't that big a determining factor for this Peru motion, as far as this current TB is concerned.

I agree. Specially considering 14 years. I mean 14 years ago nobody thought there would be a Dakar Rally in South America. Machu Picchu and Cristo Redentor were already famous but as I remember there were people that had seen the pictures but weren't sure where they were located. The New 7 Wonders contest changed that.

After 9/11 the main airlines were hit by a huge crisis. Reality was that new or smaller airlines found an opportunity and have grown a lot.

So what I think is that posts are increasing constantly. Not only about countries, but airlines and other topics. Now if we see the whole 14 years obviously we may find there are too few about Peru. But don't forget the world is in constant change, and I still believe this forum is worth it nowadays. Let's think in the future.

Shouldn't the other thread be closed? What is the point of two parallel threads?

FTers are welcome to post on either thread to provide input. TB members are pretty good at multi-tasking ;)

Cheers.

As mentioned in the other thread about a Peru forum, there really aren't that many threads or posts about Peru if you take into account 14 years of FlyerTalk activity. It isn't as if the Peru posts are so overwhelming the SA Destination forum that people's question about how to visit Peoples Temple in Guyana are getting lost. Just say "no".

"Who Moved My Cheese" by Spencer Johnson :D

As mentioned in the other thread about a Peru forum, there really aren't that many threads or posts about Peru if you take into account 14 years of FlyerTalk activity. It isn't as if the Peru posts are so overwhelming the SA Destination forum that people's question about how to visit Peoples Temple in Guyana are getting lost. Just say "no".

My feeling about new forums is clearly different than yours. I'm not all that concerned with fragmentation. It's easy, if the forums are organized properly, to find the proper forums.

We have an Antarctica forum that has had 8 posts since January 1 (and I have no problem with that, BTW). But everyone knows where to find it. I'd do the same with Peru, too -- put it under a South America forum and people will find it. If it only gets a dozen posts a year, so what? It's still organized and people will find the threads when they need them.

FTers are welcome to post on either thread to provide input. TB members are pretty good at multi-tasking ;)

Cheers.

The fact that they are welcome to do so is nice but nice isn't always smart or logical. There are reasons we disallow crossposting. I realized we have two identical threads when I wanted to quote the stats on the number if posts in he past 14 years and realized it wasn't even in het he same thread. Maybe TB should start allowing crossposting since frankly we are all great multitasking.


My feeling about new forums is clearly different than yours. I'm not all that concerned with fragmentation. It's easy, if the forums are organized properly, to find the proper forums.

We have an Antarctica forum that has had 8 posts since January 1 (and I have no problem with that, BTW). But everyone knows where to find it. I'd do the same with Peru, too -- put it under a South America forum and people will find it. If it only gets a dozen posts a year, so what? It's still organized and people will find the threads when they need them.

So why not just open forums for every country and every airline? What is you criteria for feeling that a new forum is a good idea?

The fact that they are welcome to do so is nice but nice isn't always smart or logical. There are reasons we disallow crossposting. I realized we have two identical threads when I wanted to quote the stats on the number if posts in he past 14 years and realized it wasn't even in het he same thread. Maybe TB should start allowing crossposting since frankly we are all great multitasking.




So why not just open forums for every country and every airline? What is you criteria for feeling that a new forum is a good idea?

Subjective, really. If I think it's got any chance of success, I vote for it. I was pretty clear that was my view when I campaigned for TB. Too much hand-wringing and too much time turning down forums.

Will I vote against a forum that's proposed? Maybe. Hasn't happened yet, though.

The fact that they are welcome to do so is nice but nice isn't always smart or logical. There are reasons we disallow crossposting. I realized we have two identical threads when I wanted to quote the stats on the number if posts in he past 14 years and realized it wasn't even in het he same thread. Maybe TB should start allowing crossposting since frankly we are all great multitasking.

TB has always allowed posts re: forums to go either into the comments welcome or the original discussion thread. It's been the TB policy for years, and while I cannot speak for my fellow TB members, I don't see a need to change this. This IS under TB's purview ;)

We're talking 2 threads re: a particular topic at any given time. It's something we can handle, and we prefer not to stifle FTers input by insisting they post only in the Comments Welcome thread. Do we prefer they choose the CW thread to post when voting is underway? Sure. Is it really the end of the TB/FT world if they post in the original discussion thread? No. We're capable of reading both.

Thanks for your input, and feel free to comment in either thread.

Cheers.

We have an Antarctica forum that has had 8 posts since January 1 (and I have no problem with that, BTW). But everyone knows where to find it. I'd do the same with Peru, too -- put it under a South America forum and people will find it. If it only gets a dozen posts a year, so what? It's still organized and people will find the threads when they need them.

Yes! And I'm sure Peru forum will get more and more posts. Not necessarily because it will be a separated forum, but because Peru tourism is rapidly growing, if not exploding.

The posts volume from the past is not reflecting what is going on in Peru right now. There are airlines that have returned to Peru after decades (Air France), or for the first time (Sky Airline), and several are interested in flight to Peru (Qantas, Lufthansa, Porter Airline, Interjet, Ryanair, Aer Lingus). Low-cost carriers are interested as you see, giving an opportunity to budget travelers, backpackers.

And with the Marriott precedent (Lima, Cusco in july 2012), hotels chains are opening or interested in Peru (Hilton, Westin, Intercontinental), in addition to the peruvian corporations (Casa Andina, Los Portales).

Peru airports arre or have been renovated and will be receiving international flights, giving an alternative to Lima (Iquitos in July, from Panama (Copa), Cusco, Arequipa).

And new events are being organized in Peru (Dakar departure, gastronimic fairs, etc.).

When flyertalk.com forums appeared, no cruise planned to stop in Lima. Now there are cruises (from Europe, America) that includes stops in Lima, Arequipa, Trujillo, Pisco (As you can see Peru is far more than Machu Picchu, but that would be a topic for other thread).

I think I have transmitted part of this when answered the questionnaire. My point is not about comparing a Peru forum with the current Cuba or Antarctica forums, and of course I'd never imagine to compete with the New York or France forums, but that's not the point. The point is that with what is going in Peru now, a forum would be beneficial for everybody.

Now, for that Chile forum! ;)

Indeed....can't have one without the other I say.

I fully support the proposal for a Peru forum. Based on what I see in the South America forum, and on Peru's continuing economic growth and increasing popularity as a tourist destination, I think this is a worthwhile proposal.

Actually I think there could be another forum for Peruvian cuisine but that's for future consideration...;)

TB has always allowed posts re: forums to go either into the comments welcome or the original discussion thread. It's been the TB policy for years, and while I cannot speak for my fellow TB members, I don't see a need to change this. This IS under TB's purview ;)

We're talking 2 threads re: a particular topic at any given time. It's something we can handle, and we prefer not to stifle FTers input by insisting they post only in the Comments Welcome thread. Do we prefer they choose the CW thread to post when voting is underway? Sure. Is it really the end of the TB/FT world if they post in the original discussion thread? No. We're capable of reading both.

Thanks for your input, and feel free to comment in either thread.

Cheers.

Why not merge such threads/keep one thread. Just rename thread and update OP, including linking to first post after formal voting starts.

Why not merge such threads/keep one thread. Just rename thread and update OP, including linking to first post after formal voting starts.

The current system isn't broke IMO, so no need to fix it. We're talking 2 threads for TB members to read. It's not a hardship, especially since we stay on top of them pretty regularly. FTers have the option of posting in either; I don't see a need to restrict them to one or the other.

FWIW - in the many years I've been following TB, before & during my time of serving, there's not been much input on there being more than one thread, so my guess is my FTers don't really care that there are 2 threads & in the overall scheme of things, it's not an issue.

Cheers.

My feeling about new forums is clearly different than yours. I'm not all that concerned with fragmentation. It's easy, if the forums are organized properly, to find the proper forums.

We have an Antarctica forum that has had 8 posts since January 1 (and I have no problem with that, BTW). But everyone knows where to find it. I'd do the same with Peru, too -- put it under a South America forum and people will find it. If it only gets a dozen posts a year, so what? It's still organized and people will find the threads when they need them.

I tend to agree with Rich here. When splitting a forum, some common-interest content might be lost. I see no significant common-interest content here. If it's about Peru, it's not about other countries in South America. And vice versa. Therefore I don't see a disadvantage to the split.

Readers, please correct me if you think I'm wrong. The deadline to vote is approaching...

Im in general quite liberal on new forums. That goes specifically for miles/points program or even groups of such, being FTs core value- and making program specific info easily available.

I dont have the same principle for regions, like Peru. Questions about the Antarctic doesnt really suit other forums so its justified despite low traffic. Peru would as far as I view it, be too limited in volume, and more important have more synergy with South America. Had this been Lonely Planet forums, I would have said yes. In this case I dont see it as beneficial.

The current system isn't broke IMO, so no need to fix it. We're talking 2 threads for TB members to read. It's not a hardship, especially since we stay on top of them pretty regularly. FTers have the option of posting in either; I don't see a need to restrict them to one or the other.

FWIW - in the many years I've been following TB, before & during my time of serving, there's not been much input on there being more than one thread, so my guess is my FTers don't really care that there are 2 threads & in the overall scheme of things, it's not an issue.

Cheers.

In as many years there hasn't been, and frankly still isn't, much input on a Peru forum, so my guess is that FTers don't really care that it doesn't exist. It isn't really an issue, right?

It isn't an issue of hardship on TB members. It is an issue where the conversation becomes disjointed as the single location of discussion is split into two places. So when you try to reference an earlier point it isn't clear where that came from.

To the point, I don't think the volume warrants a separate forum at this time. This doesn't preclude revisiting the issue in 6 months or a year or two if the Peru-specific volume picks up in the current South America forum.

Shouldn't the other thread be closed? What is the point of two parallel threads?

I'll give you a pass because:

1. You got me into the King David Lounge twice.

2. I agree with you.

However, if I were not so inclined, I would point out that it is not up to TalkBoard to decide whether or not the other thread should be closed. That is purely a moderators' decision and it is forbidden to discuss moderation. :D

Moderators' have merged two threads on this subject for housekeeping and convenience sake.

Moderators' have merged two threads on this subject for housekeeping and convenience sake.

You have PM.

Cheers.

Well, since the 2 threads (unlike many others we have in this forum ;)) were combined, I did a quick count of those supporting it vs. against the Peru forum.

Per the norm, I usually count one person's yes/no/maybe, regardless of how many times they post yeah/nay. It's one of the ways, although not the only one, that I get a feel for what FTers think about something we vote on. In the case of Peru, the Yeses far outweigh the Nos. In addition, both the OP & some of the others (especially those from areas in the same region) that were supportive gave some valid reasons for the creation.

So I voted yes.

Just a reminder - the vote officially ends Tuesday afternoon, or whenever all TB members have voted so we'll know then.

Cheers.

I tend to agree with Rich here. When splitting a forum, some common-interest content might be lost. I see no significant common-interest content here. If it's about Peru, it's not about other countries in South America. And vice versa. Therefore I don't see a disadvantage to the split.

Readers, please correct me if you think I'm wrong. The deadline to vote is approaching...

I think your point just turned the light on for me. I'll be voting yes.

I think your point just turned the light on for me. I'll be voting yes.

As such, would you then support creating a Destination forum for every country? Some forums do have forums for every country regardless of the activity in the forum for that country.

Moderators' have merged two threads on this subject for housekeeping and convenience sake.

That is not the SOP.

This thread now reads like a mega thread, with the relevant motion noted in the thread title now in post 27 rather than post 1. :mad:

I. Freaking. HATE. Megathreading. :mad:

That is not the SOP.

This thread now reads like a mega thread, with the relevant motion noted in the thread title now in post 27 rather than post 1. :mad:

I. Freaking. HATE. Megathreading. :mad:

Agreed. IMO, a terrible decision.

Agreed. IMO, a terrible decision.

Would have been better had the other thread been closed when the voting thread was open. At least now we have a single thread on the topic.

Would have been better had the other thread been closed when the voting thread was open. At least now we have a single thread on the topic.

There have *always* been two threads -- the original discussion thread and the "Comments Welcome" thread. Megathreading is not desirable, nor is closing off discussion in the original thread.

As such, would you then support creating a Destination forum for every country? Some forums do have forums for every country regardless of the activity in the forum for that country.

In the case where there is very little overlap and a reasonable amount of discussion so as not to make it a complete ghost town, I can't say I'd be opposed.

When dealing with a destination that is often paired with other nearby destinations and creating a separate forum would hurt, rather than help, the quality of discussion and the number of eyeballs seeing the discussion (such as in the recently-discussed idea of breaking apart some of the states in the West forum), then no.

This is the 80th post in this thread. How does that equate to megathreading???

I can get more posts than that by starting a thread spamming Cholula Hot Sauce.

(In fact, I once did and there were 5544 posts in it before it was shut down.)

nor is closing off discussion in the original thread.

Why?

In the case where there is very little overlap and a reasonable amount of discussion so as not to make it a complete ghost town, I can't say I'd be opposed.

What is a reasonable amount of discussion?

Moderators' have merged two threads on this subject for housekeeping and convenience sake.

Thank you. ^

Rather than discussing moderation issues, which is neither productive nor permitted, please use the PM system or the http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.flyertalk.com/get/forum/images/buttons/report.gif Alert a moderator to this post button to deal with posting / thread issues.

I will consult with my moderator colleague when he is available and see if we can follow through with a reasonable thread split if some semblance of order can be restored, or continue with the thread as is; I do not want to second guess anyone. In the meantime, please continue posting about putative Perú Forum and TB's voting on it in this thread.

Thank you, JDiver, Moderator

What is a reasonable amount of discussion?

An amount which ensures that interested parties with potential answers to the posted questions will drop in regularly enough that questions are answered in a timely fashion.

Let's not get too far off-topic on this. I just plain screwed up merging them. :o A couple of FT'ers asked via RBP and PM that it occur, and in a rush between business deadlines I did not fully think it through.

Tradition is to keep the proposal and voting threads separately. This remains the practice, IMO. Unfortunately I can't unravel my mistake.

Sorry for the inconvenience. Now back to our regularly scheduled debate....







P.S. I personally consider my one visit to Peru (particularly Cusco) one of the travel highlights of my life

Let's not get too far off-topic on this. I just plain screwed up merging them. :o A couple of FT'ers asked via RBP and PM that it occur, and in a rush between business deadlines I did not fully think it through.

Tradition is to keep the proposal and voting threads separately. This remains the practice, IMO. Unfortunately I can't unravel my mistake.

Sorry for the inconvenience. Now back to our regularly scheduled debate....







P.S. I personally consider my one visit to Peru (particularly Cusco) one of the travel highlights of my lifeNo worries on my part :) but why have two threads running simultaneously in the first place?

Why not simply close the proposal thread closed with a title change like this (if the proposal actually makes it to a motion, that is)

Proposal: Create a Hockey* forum (now closed see discussion thread)


*quiet kokonutz ;)

Because not everyone likes hockey :p :D

Anyway, let's get back to discussing the merits of the Peru forum rather than get sidetracked with merging of threads.

I appreciate moderator2 getting back to us so quickly. BTW - at this point given the vote closes within 24 hours, let's just leave everything alone re: changing the threads again.

Cheers.

In accordance with the recently changed guidelines that means we'll announce if a motion has passed or failed once enough yes or no votes have been recorded by TB members, this is the public notice that this motion will pass as it has secured 6 yes votes.

Please note that not all TB members have voted yet, and so a final announcement with who voted yes/no will not be posted until all 9 have voted or the voting period ends.

Thanks, all, for your patience - there's always an explanation, and it's usually he simplest one (Occam's Razor comes into play,) not the one preceded by black helicopters.

Now it looks like I (and you!) will have a dedicated Forum to discuss Lake Titicaca and Taquile, Juliaca and Sillustani, Ollantaytambo and the Sacred Valley, Moray, Cusco, Tambo Machay, Tambopata, Paracas, Nazca, etc. ;)

No black helicopters implied -- I just thought it was an odd (and unprecedented) decision. Back to other things.

Hm. Well, I am going to Cartagena, Colombia on Thursday.... Hmmmmmmm

:D

Now it looks like I (and you!) will have a dedicated Forum to discuss Lake Titicaca and Taquile, Juliaca and Sillustani, Ollantaytambo and the Sacred Valley, Moray, Cusco, Tambo Machay, Tambopata, Paracas, Nazca, etc. ;)


Great news!! And don't forget the Amazonas, Máncora, Kuélap, and our world culture heritage (beyond Machu Picchu and City of Cusco):
Chavin (Archaeological Site)
Huascarán National Park #
Chan Chan Archaeological Zone
Manú National Park
Historic Centre of Lima
Río Abiseo National Park
Lines and Geoglyphs of Nasca and Pampas de Jumana
Historical Centre of the City of Arequipa
Sacred City of Caral-Supe

1
Now it looks like I (and you!) will have a dedicated Forum to discuss...Nazca, etc. ;)

I thought that Nazca held most of its races in the US, particularly in the South.

BTW, should any of the Nazca threads discuss Danica Patrick, I would hope that the OP include pictures.

Hm. Well, I am going to Cartagena, Colombia on Thursday.... Hmmmmmmm

:DWith or without Secret Service protection? ;)

On April 17, 2012, Talkboard passed 8-1:

"Talkboard recommends the creation of a Peru forum."

Voting Yes: bhatnasx, Cholula, goalie, jackal, kokonutz, nsx, RichMSN, SkiAdcock
Voting No: Spiff

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/peru-710/

Ok, everyone, it is not pronounced PURRU :o

Please use the new forum correctly! ;)

Unfortunately as she is known in Perú, she's rather skinny, most resembling a stick figure in 2D in the sand... and now she can be discussed in the Perú Forum along with Erich von Danica. :D

¡Felicidades! aficionados al Perú (Congratulations to Peru aficionados).

I thought that Nazca held most of its races in the US, particularly in the South.

BTW, should any of the Nazca threads discuss Danica Patrick, I would hope that the OP include pictures.