Apparently, JFK-LAS flight was diverted to Amarillo, Texas after captain came out of lav foaming at mouth and ranting about a bomb. Subdued by passengers, plane landed safely:
From one of the company's FaceBook pages:
A ferry flight is en route from LGB-AMA to fly our Customers to LAS. As a gesture of goodwill, Customers will be provided a refund for the value of their one-way flight, and a credit for the twice that value.
From a bit earlier in the day:
Flight 191 diverted to Amarillo, TX due to a medical situation with the Captain. An off-duty JetBlue Captain entered the flight deck to support the Pilot-in-Command.
As aviation professionals, we depend on our training to know what to do in any situation. I would like to personally thank the crew of Flight 191 for their quick action and their focus on the safety of the Customers and each other.
ysolde
Mar 27, 12, 12:20 pm
Wow. That is incredibly frightening. I'm glad no one was injured, and everything turned out all right.
Open Jaw
Mar 27, 12, 12:51 pm
Crazy! You know all is going to badly when the FA ask paxs to tackle the pilot.
mrredskin
Mar 27, 12, 2:02 pm
disappointed he didn't try shotgunning a couple of brews and flipping off everyone in the cabin, first.
enviroian
Mar 27, 12, 2:29 pm
PTSD from serving in the middle east perhaps? Don't pilots go through psychological testing/screening on an annual basis?
I wonder how much this little snafoo will cost jetBlue.
dhuey
Mar 27, 12, 2:48 pm
IIRC, there is a website that records all commercial flight communications with the control towers and centers. I'd be curious to hear the audio from this flight.
enviroian
Mar 27, 12, 2:51 pm
IIRC, there is a website that records all commercial flight communications with the control towers and centers. I'd be curious to hear the audio from this flight.
Me too. Let me check over at airliners.net. Sounds like something they'd have posted.
LesPaul30
Mar 27, 12, 2:59 pm
Forgive me for repeating from a closed thread... but,
Isn't this the flight number that most airlines will not use? 191? I had read previously that its very superstitious as its linked to tragic accidents on various airlines... Of course, its just coincidence it's making news again but interestingly enough! Thankfully not in the same scope as the previous ones...
FWAAA
Mar 27, 12, 3:28 pm
Forgive me for repeating from a closed thread... but,
Isn't this the flight number that most airlines will not use? 191? I had read previously that its very superstitious as its linked to tragic accidents on various airlines... Of course, its just coincidence it's making news again but interestingly enough! Thankfully not in the same scope as the previous ones...
Generally, airlines will not reuse a flight number that was involved in a disaster at that airline, but other airlines don't usually "retire" numbers from tragic flights at other airlines.
Case in point: AA's tragic flight 191 crashed in May, 1979 on takeoff from Chicago. In August, 1985, DL's flight 191 crashed in a tragic accident at DFW. Apparently, DL didn't retire the number after the AA crash. B6 apparently doesn't retire and refuse to use flight numbers that were involved in tragedies at other airlines.
adamj023
Mar 27, 12, 4:22 pm
Apparently, JFK-LAS flight was diverted to Amarillo, Texas after captain came out of lav foaming at mouth and ranting about a bomb. Subdued by passengers, plane landed safely:
The whole situation is bizarre. Why? Because the plane was flying perfectly and there was no struggle in the cockpit but rather the Captain gets locked out after allegedly he goes to the bathroom as the story goes.
Then he says all these things about middle eastern nations and wars and the like. How do the passengers know the cockpit wasn't compromised.
Something is amiss, plus the other flight from Amarillo is in route right now and has not arrived.
Allegedly a security conference was going on in Las Vegas area.
Remember this didn't happen till a bathroom break incident and the plane was flying perfectly the whole way. Only when there was alleged bathroom break and/or the plane got further into western usa airspace in a certain area did the event happen.
OPNLguy
Mar 27, 12, 4:56 pm
The whole situation is bizarre. Why? Because the plane was flying perfectly and there was no struggle in the cockpit but rather the Captain gets locked out after allegedly he goes to the bathroom as the story goes.
There are so many versions of "the story" floating around (complete with contradictory information and incorrect assumptions) that it may well be a day or two before we all find out what REALLY transpired.
Incorrect information? One news item said the Captain had a medical issue and that the pilot-in-command diverted the aircraft to Amarillo. In truth, the Captain and the pilot-in-command are the same person. The other pilot is the co-pilot or first officer (F/O). Another story mentions the flight having multiple copilots, when there is only one. Still another story reports that an off-duty Captain took over, either in the air, or only once on the ground. It'll take a day or two for the truth to trickle down.
One of the things airlines train their pilots to look for are signs of what is called "incapacitation" and it comes in two flavors, "subtle" and "overt" (anything that isn't subtle). An example of subtle incapacitation is when while on an instrument approach in poor weather, should the one pilot (who is actually flying) not respond to altitude call-outs or other cockpit tasks uttered by the other non-flying pilot (who is monitoring everything) the non-flying pilot takes over the controls and aborts the approach/landing.
In the case of overt incapacitation, as its name implies, there's serious concern by one pilot over the other's behavior. Based on the fundamentals of what is known about 191's situation, at the very least it sounds as if the F/O had some seriousconcern about the Captain's behavior, assessed the behavior as a valid threat, and did the smart thing and got him out of the cockpit by whatever means he could. Once out, he was unable to get back in, and the F/O landed the aircraft all by himself, just as he would have if the Captain had theoretically had a heart attack and died in his seat. Many people think F/Os are not capable of doing everything a Captain can, but they are well-trained and just as much "real" pilots as the Captains are.
The general public may never know the real reason(s) why the Captain acted as he did here, and that's as it should be given medical privacy issues. What the traveling public should take comfort in is knowing that the possibilities of such events has been considered within training programs, and appropriate responses to such contingencies developed.
..and no, I don't work for jetBlue...
leonidas
Mar 27, 12, 4:57 pm
Seems like the copilot handled it really well. Not easy to lock captain out. Poor fellow probably had a nervous breakdown from work related stress.
buckeyefanflyer
Mar 27, 12, 5:11 pm
Tracking the flight on FlightAware, will be landing in LAS shortly, a very long day for the passengers.
Kagehitokiri
Mar 27, 12, 5:20 pm
im surprised there isnt more discussion, i guess because jetblue?
there are at least 2 cell phone videos from onboard online
dhuey
Mar 27, 12, 5:46 pm
The general public may never know the real reason(s) why the Captain acted as he did here, and that's as it should be given medical privacy issues.
This pilot's medical history might be private, but exactly why the co-pilot felt the need to take the course of action taken is a matter of great public concern. The same is true of the pilot's conduct and statements onboard the aircraft. I hope there is a full report about all of this. A pilot going paranoid and delusional mid-flight is obviously a very dangerous situation.
adamj023
Mar 27, 12, 6:06 pm
This pilot's medical history might be private, but exactly why the co-pilot felt the need to take the course of action taken is a matter of great public concern. The same is true of the pilot's conduct and statements onboard the aircraft. I hope there is a full report about all of this. A pilot going paranoid and delusional mid-flight is obviously a very dangerous situation.
Actually everyone seems to be siding with the Co-pilot here and I don't know why.
The Pilot as per evidence of the flight data information were operating normally and the Captain appeared to be in full control of the flight till he exited for the bathroom.
One would need to acquire the black box cockpit flight recorder but somehow I bet that was even normal. What is known from all publically available information, is that this was a normal flight and only after the pilot exited did the flight attendents and copilots wind up turning against the Captain of the flight who happened to exit to go to the bathroom. Then as he was kicked out and couldn't get back in did he put up a fuss.
That is all the evidence shows right now.
In EgyptAir 990, the situation was less obvious and more complex.
The plane was making no manuvers outside of normal operating procedures and in no time was any commands issued that could affect safety. So kicking out a pilot who was in full control of the jet till a bathroom break doesn't make sense to me at all.
I am sorry but these posts on here actually saying that the right thing happened by restraining the Captain seemed bizarre.
One wonders if there was a senority dispute going on inside the cockpit or what actually led to these circumstances but as far as I can tell right now based on all the evidence, the Captain should NOT have been kicked out of the cockpit and was in full control.
Someone said allegedly he was partially dressed or something so some confrontation must have happened.
Also I don't mean to go conspiratorial here but this flight according to logs was diverted once to Colorado and this flight wound up getting diverted to Amarillo Texas.
Both these locations are by key facilities and one wonders if there wasn't more going on here considering the military airspace levels of the regions these pilots were flying into on these commercially operated flights.
There is a lot more and I think the media coverage of this story was absolutely ludicrous and the interpretation that people are coming out with on this story also lends itself to issues. Apparently the federal government got involved with this flight according to press releases.
But were any military jets actually scrambled to follow this plane if you had an out of control captain from JFK to Amarillo Texas?
In a post 9/11 world with flight tracking and classified intelligence teams and everything inbetween, something is seriously amiss with this story with critical information being left out.
From end to end, people booked on JBLU 191 did get back safety and the plane is now scheduled again for its JFK Departure.
Only other thing I could think of is perhaps this flight was used as a safety drill and this was planned in advance.
dhuey
Mar 27, 12, 6:25 pm
Actually everyone seems to be siding with the Co-pilot here and I don't know why.
Well, this might be why:
The captain exhibited odd behavior, randomly striking up conversations with passengers on his way back to the cockpit.
When he realized he was locked out, a passenger says the pilot began screaming “let me in” and acting erratically.
One witness says he started running up and down the aisle screaming.
A flight attendant quickly got on the intercom, saying, “restrain him,” according to passengers.
If this report is correct -- and it seems to be based on multiple eyewitness accounts -- then it looks very much like the pilot went nuts mid-flight. It could be that all aspects of the flight were normal, but in the cockpit he was saying things to the co-pilot that revealed that all systems were far from normal in the space between the pilot's ears.
adamj023
Mar 27, 12, 6:33 pm
Well, this might be why:
The captain exhibited odd behavior, randomly striking up conversations with passengers on his way back to the cockpit.
When he realized he was locked out, a passenger says the pilot began screaming “let me in” and acting erratically.
One witness says he started running up and down the aisle screaming.
A flight attendant quickly got on the intercom, saying, “restrain him,” according to passengers.
If this report is correct -- and it seems to be based on multiple eyewitness accounts -- then it looks very much like the pilot went nuts mid-flight. It could be that all aspects of the flight were normal, but in the cockpit he was saying things to the co-pilot that revealed that all systems were far from normal in the space between the pilot's ears.
"The captain exhibited odd behavior, randomly striking up conversations with passengers on his way back to the cockpit.
When he realized he was locked out"
Doesn't really explain much. Perhaps the pilot intended to get taken off at Amarillo Texas on a commercial passenger flight and this was how it got done OR he knew something was amiss and was being overtaken by others onboard the aircraft.
Also what are the statistical odds of a replacement pilot being on the actual flight being offduty and was he a JetBlue employee or was he allowed to fly a JetBlue flight working for another airline?
At any rate, all passengers arrived safely.
I still don't get the connection between why this Captain was taken out and from reports I heard it made it seem like he went irate only AFTER he couldn't get back in the cockpit.
I admit I miss the early days of JetBlue where Neeleman was running the show and you had a brand new startup.
Since then the airline has become bulkier with more flights and more problems at times.
tdowl5757
Mar 27, 12, 6:38 pm
Only other thing I could think of is perhaps this flight was used as a safety drill and this was planned in advance.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.....
zoegksf
Mar 27, 12, 6:41 pm
Airlines-The new Post office.
sbm12
Mar 27, 12, 6:49 pm
Also what are the statistical odds of a replacement pilot being on the actual flight being offduty and was he a JetBlue employee or was he allowed to fly a JetBlue flight working for another airline?
Low, but it was a B6 employee who worked as the replacement pilot per the official statement from the company.
AS MHT
Mar 27, 12, 6:56 pm
Definitely a good argument against the one-man flight crew.
dinoscool3
Mar 27, 12, 6:58 pm
First B6 plane ever to land at AMA? :D
ericblair
Mar 27, 12, 7:07 pm
Also I don't mean to go conspiratorial here but this flight according to logs was diverted once to Colorado and this flight wound up getting diverted to Amarillo Texas.
Both these locations are by key facilities and one wonders if there wasn't more going on here considering the military airspace levels of the regions these pilots were flying into on these commercially operated flights.
Yes, there are some pretty sensitive areas in Colorado, but Amarillo AFB has been closed for decades and there's nothing else in more than a hundred miles that I'm aware of. I also have no idea what kind of mission this would be or why the US military would be screwing illegally with a commercial flight.
You have to feel for the passengers; they must have though it was 9/11 all over again. Hope Jetblue treats them really well.
OPNLguy
Mar 27, 12, 7:13 pm
Actually everyone seems to be siding with the Co-pilot here and I don't know why.
I think you answered your own question here by writing:
"From end to end, people booked on JBLU 191 did get back safety..."
The Pilot as per evidence of the flight data information were operating normally and the Captain appeared to be in full control of the flight till he exited for the bathroom.
Updated media reports are now stating that the Captain was inappropriately flipping switches, one of the things that presumably caused some of the F/O's "concerns" about the Captain's behavior. There are some switches that absolutely should never be pulled when one is at normal cruise altitude and normal cruising speeds. Deploy the L/E slats or the landing gear at Mach .78 and see what happens... Not!
One would need to acquire the black box cockpit flight recorder but somehow I bet that was even normal. What is known from all publically available information, is that this was a normal flight and only after the pilot exited did the flight attendents and copilots wind up turning against the Captain of the flight who happened to exit to go to the bathroom. Then as he was kicked out and couldn't get back in did he put up a fuss.
That's "copilot" in the singular. With all due respect, you presume everything was "normal" but apparently the F/O didn't feel likewise, or he wouldn't have taken the action(s) that he did. Neither you or I were there (he was). That said, some common-sense conclusions can still be drawn..
The plane was making no manuvers outside of normal operating procedures and in no time was any commands issued that could affect safety. So kicking out a pilot who was in full control of the jet till a bathroom break doesn't make sense to me at all.
One wonders if there was a senority dispute going on inside the cockpit or what actually led to these circumstances but as far as I can tell right now based on all the evidence, the Captain should NOT have been kicked out of the cockpit and was in full control.
I am sorry but these posts on here actually saying that the right thing happened by restraining the Captain seemed bizarre.
The wasn't a mutiny. Again, the F/O obviously felt the need to take the action(s) that he did.
Also I don't mean to go conspiratorial here but this flight according to logs was diverted once to Colorado and this flight wound up getting diverted to Amarillo Texas.
I don't know how you've concluded the above. The route clearly shows him filed over Amarillo (PNH) and actually overflying Dalhart (DHT) just to the NW of Amarillo and about to enter into New Mexico. How did Colorado come into play here?
Both these locations are by key facilities and one wonders if there wasn't more going on here considering the military airspace levels of the regions these pilots were flying into on these commercially operated flights.
Not likely..
There is a lot more and I think the media coverage of this story was absolutely ludicrous and the interpretation that people are coming out with on this story also lends itself to issues. Apparently the federal government got involved with this flight according to press releases.
I agree the media's coverage was lacking, but surely you can understand why government agencies like FAA and TSA are involved, right?
But were any military jets actually scrambled to follow this plane if you had an out of control captain from JFK to Amarillo Texas?
It all appears to have happened too quickly for any possible intervention by military aircraft. Flightaware's tracklog (available at the link above) shows the aircraft vacating 34,000 feet and starting a 1,200fpm descent as of 10:51, and after increased descent rates as high as 3,720fpm, the last entry is at 11:04, just before they landed. That's 13 minutes in all, and not enough time to scramble anybody.
In a post 9/11 world with flight tracking and classified intelligence teams and everything inbetween, something is seriously amiss with this story with critical information being left out.
I think you'll find that with many breaking stories (and aviation stories are no exception), some (much?) of the initial info is later revised once the finer details come out.
Only other thing I could think of is perhaps this flight was used as a safety drill and this was planned in advance.
And intentionally put passengers through this turmoil and drama, with bad PR for the airline as well? Sorry, no way whatsoever.....
.
zkzkz
Mar 27, 12, 7:19 pm
Also what are the statistical odds of a replacement pilot being on the actual flight being offduty and was he a JetBlue employee or was he allowed to fly a JetBlue flight working for another airline?
Huh? I'm not sure I've ever been on a domestic flight that didn't have at least one dead-heading crew member. On at least one occastion half the business seats were taken by dead-heading pilots.
On the other hand it's highly unusual for a non-flight crew member to take the controls. One of the Mayday episodes talks about a pilot being blackballed in the industry just because he gave some guidance to a pilot during a crisis when he was sitting in the jump seat.
Rondall
Mar 27, 12, 7:26 pm
Nevermind.
alanh
Mar 27, 12, 7:28 pm
Maybe the airlines should just give up on flight 191 (http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2012/03/27/the-worst-flight-number-191/?mod=google_news_blog). See DL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Flight_191), AA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191), Comair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comair_Flight_191).
OPNLguy
Mar 27, 12, 7:29 pm
Huh? I'm not sure I've ever been on a domestic flight that didn't have at least one dead-heading crew member. On at least one occastion half the business seats were taken by dead-heading pilots.
Even if there are no DHing crew aboard, one pilot can still land the aircraft.
If there are other folks with private piloting experience, even they can be useful when one pilot is incapacitated, like working the radios, running checklists, and keeping an eye out for traffic.
UA had a case a few years ago where a F/A with pilot experience filled that role. Likewise at CO, where the Captain died and an IFR-rated private pilot took the seat and helped get the 757 IAH-PVR turned around so as to land in MFE.
tdowl5757
Mar 27, 12, 7:31 pm
Thanks OPNL, I just didn't have will to hit all those points........
UncleDude
Mar 27, 12, 7:36 pm
First a JetBlue FA goes overboard a few months ago..now a Pilot, I was always concerned there was something strange in those Blue Colored Chips they serve,:D
adamj023
Mar 27, 12, 7:51 pm
The previous diversion was with the same JBLU 191 flight # which was diverted to Colorado as per Flightaware at a different time period.
It is clearly visable on a different day from FlightAware's logs of JBLU 191.
The restricted areas in question are in the mountains in the Colorado area and in Las Vegas, Nevada area by Nellis AFB. Incidentially military pilots get training at Nellis and some of these folks are flying commercial planes today. An excellent example was Captain Sullenberger who had Fighter jet experience who successfully landed the Airbus in the Hudson.
It is still unclear as to who the pilot of this airplane was and what his experience was.
Amarillo Texas is actually located close to where Pantex is which is a key USA nuclear weapons assembly and disassembly facility.
Nothing I say here is classified nor am I privy to anything. These are just generalistic terms. Obviously USA keeps close tabs over secure airspace areas for classified areas.
On that note: I have been told an Air Berlin flight was denied getting into Syrian airspace going into the Western border the previous day before this incident happened which was on a routine flight which had previously been allowed passage.
Remember when you are moving commercial planes, there is more than meets the eye than the flight decks and crew and airplane itself.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JBU191
The Colorado diversion was on March 16th.
http://www.nellis.af.mil/
http://www.pantex.com/
Cheyenne mountains hosts Norad and has been known to host other classified activities in recent times.
icydog
Mar 27, 12, 7:56 pm
First a JetBlue FA goes overboard a few months ago..now a Pilot, I was always concerned there was something strange in those Blue Colored Chips they serve,:D
What amazes me is the limited number of responses this thread has gotten. If this happened on UA the thread would have hundreds of replies.
ente_09
Mar 27, 12, 7:57 pm
passengers go nuts and its a criminal act/felony.
Flight crew does it and they are "sick"
OPNLguy
Mar 27, 12, 8:08 pm
The previous diversion was with the same JBLU 191 flight # which was diverted to Colorado as per Flightaware at a different time period.
It is clearly visable on a different day from FlightAware's logs of JBLU 191.
...the normal routing that day took it over DVV (one of the navaids in the DEN area). Routings change from day-to-day (to avoid the winter jetstream winds) and when those headwinds end up being much stronger than forecast, flights may have to drop-in some place for additional fuel. The fact that 191 wasn't originally filed JFK-DEN to begin with tells me it wasn't a planned "fuelstop" but was instead a case of a busted winds aloft forecast, hence the original JFK-LAS filing and the diversion into DEN.
No conspiracy; no connection with today's 191; nothing to see here. These aren't the droids you're looking for... Move along...
Thomas Hudson
Mar 27, 12, 8:10 pm
My bet is he had a stroke
tdowl5757
Mar 27, 12, 8:18 pm
No conspiracy; no connection with today's 191; nothing to see here. These aren't the droids you're looking for... Move along...
...the normal routing that day took it over DVV (one of the navaids in the DEN area). Routings change from day-to-day (to avoid the winter jetstream winds) and when those headwinds end up being much stronger than forecast, flights may have to drop-in some place for additional fuel. The fact that 191 wasn't originally filed JFK-DEN to begin with tells me it wasn't a planned "fuelstop" but was instead a case of a busted winds aloft forecast, hence the original JFK-LAS filing and the diversion into DEN.
No conspiracy; no connection with today's 191; nothing to see here. These aren't the droids you're looking for... Move along...
JetBlue routinely flies A320 further into California.
An A320 has a range of 5,900 km.
A320 has a 30 kts headwind maximum for autoland from the online manuals Ive seen. And I am not sure what the maximum headwind is for landing and I admit to not knowing the wind conditions for that day and if anything else was causing gusts of wind speeds that day.
I wonder if Sullenberger was talking about this incident. He has been brought on for other aspects but I only saw another safety expert on one of the other news networks.
Nevermind found him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln38B7rZffQ
Small snippet and he said I don't know in response to Erin Burnett on CNN.
perezoso
Mar 27, 12, 8:28 pm
Makes me feel even safer knowing that the FAA allows pilots to carry loaded pistols in the cockpit.
He could have shotgunned a few beers, flipped off first class, shot the co-pilot (an obvious Iran co-conspirator) with his Colt .45, and continued onward in his apparent delirium.
Perhaps flying the A320 into those nice plutonium storage facilities at Los Alamos, just a wee bit down the road from AMA, would have stopped the Al-Qaeda plot he was so valiantly fighting...
FlyingDiver
Mar 27, 12, 8:31 pm
Incorrect information? One news item said the Captain had a medical issue and that the pilot-in-command diverted the aircraft to Amarillo. In truth, the Captain and the pilot-in-command are the same person. The other pilot is the co-pilot or first officer (F/O). Another story mentions the flight having multiple copilots, when there is only one. Still another story reports that an off-duty Captain took over, either in the air, or only once on the ground. It'll take a day or two for the truth to trickle down.
That's not really accurate. The Pilot In Command (PIC) is the pilot currently in command of the aircraft. Who is PIC can change during the flight. Certainly, a pilot (captain or FO) cannot be PIC when they're not actually in the cockpit. The FARs have a very complete definition of who can be PIC and what their responsibilities are. It's part of the regulations regarding logging PIC or SIC time.
He's screaming "Oh my god! I'm so distraught!" "We've got Israel, we've got Iraq!!....(Something incoherent)!" Not the most inspiring words from the man you are supposed to depend upon to get you where you're going.
I think the Co-Pilot and crew did the absolutely right thing. I'm glad the passengers help subdue him as well.
FWAAA
Mar 27, 12, 8:40 pm
JetBlue routinely flies A320 further into California. A320's are not affected by the headwind issues you see on other jets with lower range which require refueling stops.
You're simply incorrect. In the winter, A320s sometimes have to stop for fuel between the east coast and the west coast due to headwinds.
mbstone
Mar 27, 12, 8:44 pm
Does anybody see similarities with the March 9 incident on AA 2332 (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-aadvantage/1322971-flight-attendant-causes-disturbance-removed-aboard-aa-2332-9-mar-2012-a.html) in which an AA FA flipped out, allegedly began rambling (as the B6 captain is alleged to have done) about terrorism, plane crashes, etc., and had to be restrained? That incident was also called a "medical event."
What if the Real Terrorists are slipping drugs into the flight crew members' orange juice, a la MK-ULTRA?
OPNLguy
Mar 27, 12, 8:48 pm
JetBlue routinely flies A320 further into California.
An A320 has a range of 5,900 km.
A320 has a 30 kts headwind maximum for autoland from the online manuals Ive seen. And I am not sure what the maximum headwind is for landing and I admit to not knowing the wind conditions for that day and if anything else was causing gusts of wind speeds that day.
Jeez, now I've spewed a mouthful of red wine all over my computer screen...
In the real airline world where I've lived for the last 35 years, you'd find that quoted range figures in whatever source you're citing have certain assumptions built-in, like a certain amount of headwind component, arriving with IFR (or NBAA) fuel reserves, no destination alternate, etc. They're not at all unlike EPA mileage estimates for cars, especially the phrase "your mileage may vary" and as we all know, it almost always does vary.
I can assure you without an iota of doubt that A320s do (at certain times) have range issues associated with strong headwinds. So do 737s and some other types. Throw a jetstream headwind of 150 kts to 200 kts out there, and see how many aircraft are stopping:
Then again, all these jetBlue flights mentioned in the linked thread above were probably just more participants in the big conspiracy...
Squaking 1200 now, frequency change approved...
OPNLguy
Mar 27, 12, 8:49 pm
That's not really accurate. The Pilot In Command (PIC) is the pilot currently in command of the aircraft. Who is PIC can change during the flight. Certainly, a pilot (captain or FO) cannot be PIC when they're not actually in the cockpit. The FARs have a very complete definition of who can be PIC and what their responsibilities are. It's part of the regulations regarding logging PIC or SIC time.
joe
Yes, I know all that, but I was trying to keep it simple as possible..
adamj023
Mar 27, 12, 8:50 pm
You're simply incorrect. In the winter, A320s sometimes have to stop for fuel between the east coast and the west coast due to headwinds.
I was under the impression there were no fuel stops required.
If there are, then I would hope JetBlue would replace the A320 with longer range aircraft which aren't affected by such. Noone likes a direct flight just to find out you have to stop for refueling.
I presume the A32X Neo's won't require this refueling stop in the future if such does happen now on limited flights and JetBlue should allocate those to the longest routes first.
Also remember: This was a JFK to Las Vegas flight.
I have heard of instances where JFK to FLL for instance got diverted to west palm beach (PBI), but I always thought the reason was due to someone not filling up the fuel fully at JFK.
With the modern jet age, and with ranges and fuel efficiency always improving on new jets, it isn't hard for airlines to appropriately match equipment to routes which won't have headwind issues anymore.
OPNLguy
Mar 27, 12, 8:59 pm
and most likely cause is someone not refueling fully at JFK.
Oh, pluheeze.... :rolleyes:
You realize there are multiple checks and balances in place to keep this from happening, right?
adamj023
Mar 27, 12, 9:07 pm
Oh, pluheeze.... :rolleyes:
You realize there are multiple checks and balances in place to keep this from happening, right?
Improvements with the A320neo include a 15 per cent reduction in fuel consumption, two tonnes of additional payload, up to 500 nautical miles of more range, lower operating costs, along with reductions in engine noise and emissions.
JetBlue I assume has orders? Just wonder when they will come in. Should eliminate all headwind issues considering their route size?
I would have to ask a trained pilot on the headwind issue on the A320. I was really unaware of what the limits were if any but if there are any limits on certain routes, A320neo should eliminate those.
tdowl5757
Mar 27, 12, 9:13 pm
Does anybody see similarities with the March 9 incident on AA 2332 (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-aadvantage/1322971-flight-attendant-causes-disturbance-removed-aboard-aa-2332-9-mar-2012-a.html) in which an AA FA flipped out, allegedly began rambling (as the B6 captain is alleged to have done) about terrorism, plane crashes, etc., and had to be restrained? That incident was also called a "medical event."
What if the Real Terrorists are slipping drugs into the flight crew members' orange juice, a la MK-ULTRA?
Just opened another bottle of red, as this post wasted a full glass, spit, spewed and knocked over....
adamj023
Mar 27, 12, 9:22 pm
Who knows what happened. The scary part is the security aspect of this incident.
Certain locations are closely monitored though.
JetBlue incident involved a Captain and the flight was flying through critical areas of the nation. JetBlue is well capitalized and Captains make good salaries working for JetBlue. JetBlue planes are immaculately inspected and maintained and they have not a single hull loss.
The AA incident was a flight attendent and obviously facing stress due to the bankruptcy. AA2232 was an older AA MD80 jet and those are known to have higher failure rates as well. I personally would not fly on an AA MD80, though the new AA 737's coming in are very nice and the stewardess should have asked to be reallocated to the next available one rather than going on a ranting tirade.
After an incident like that with an employer, getting a new stewardess job with an airline is going to be quite tough.
In this instance, for a captain (who is yet named) to have an incident like this is very unusual and there are a lot of unknowns here and critical aspects in the flightpath and military concerns (nuclear, military bases and so on and so forth).
I do believe AA with their MD80s and older fleet should be grounded by the bankruptcy court but they are on strong ordering buys with newer aircraft.
Look its tough to deal with people as a steward/stewardess especially if its a bankrupt carrier and the employer isn't treating you well.
I understand it happening on AA but with JetBlue it just seems highly unusual.
kwildnj
Mar 27, 12, 9:29 pm
Actually everyone seems to be siding with the Co-pilot here and I don't know why.
The Pilot as per evidence of the flight data information were operating normally and the Captain appeared to be in full control of the flight till he exited for the bathroom.
One would need to acquire the black box cockpit flight recorder but somehow I bet that was even normal. What is known from all publically available information, is that this was a normal flight and only after the pilot exited did the flight attendents and copilots wind up turning against the Captain of the flight who happened to exit to go to the bathroom. Then as he was kicked out and couldn't get back in did he put up a fuss.
That is all the evidence shows right now.
In EgyptAir 990, the situation was less obvious and more complex.
The plane was making no manuvers outside of normal operating procedures and in no time was any commands issued that could affect safety. So kicking out a pilot who was in full control of the jet till a bathroom break doesn't make sense to me at all.
I am sorry but these posts on here actually saying that the right thing happened by restraining the Captain seemed bizarre.
One wonders if there was a senority dispute going on inside the cockpit or what actually led to these circumstances but as far as I can tell right now based on all the evidence, the Captain should NOT have been kicked out of the cockpit and was in full control.
Someone said allegedly he was partially dressed or something so some confrontation must have happened.
Also I don't mean to go conspiratorial here but this flight according to logs was diverted once to Colorado and this flight wound up getting diverted to Amarillo Texas.
Both these locations are by key facilities and one wonders if there wasn't more going on here considering the military airspace levels of the regions these pilots were flying into on these commercially operated flights.
There is a lot more and I think the media coverage of this story was absolutely ludicrous and the interpretation that people are coming out with on this story also lends itself to issues. Apparently the federal government got involved with this flight according to press releases.
But were any military jets actually scrambled to follow this plane if you had an out of control captain from JFK to Amarillo Texas?
In a post 9/11 world with flight tracking and classified intelligence teams and everything inbetween, something is seriously amiss with this story with critical information being left out.
From end to end, people booked on JBLU 191 did get back safety and the plane is now scheduled again for its JFK Departure.
Only other thing I could think of is perhaps this flight was used as a safety drill and this was planned in advance.
Okay, so I read this post three or four times, and can make neither heads nor tails out of what you were trying to say, or what point you were trying to make.
For the most part, once airborne, a flight is generally on auto pilot, and/or under the control of the First Officer. In addition, I have seen no reports that the pilot plotted to crash the aircraft, the decision to subdue the pilot was made based on his actions after visiting the restroom, based on his mental state at the time, and what he was saying, and his actions.
Okay, the flight was diverted a week or so ago. Big whoop. Dozens of flights are diverted each day, for a myriad of reasons. A discovered mechanical problem, a medical condition on board, requiring urgent medical intervention, weather at the destination airport, weather enroute to the destination airport, a closure of the destination airport, aignificant delays at the destination airport, and yes, even fuel shortages cause flights to be diverted.
There really isnt any need for the conspiracy theory you I think have stated here.
tdowl5757
Mar 27, 12, 10:07 pm
That's not really accurate. The Pilot In Command (PIC) is the pilot currently in command of the aircraft. Who is PIC can change during the flight. Certainly, a pilot (captain or FO) cannot be PIC when they're not actually in the cockpit. The FARs have a very complete definition of who can be PIC and what their responsibilities are. It's part of the regulations regarding logging PIC or SIC time.
joe
Sorry Joe but you're wrong.
Under "normal" circumstances, the PIC is always in command regardless of where he is, including the lav.
However if he's incapacitated then the FO assumes command.
FlyingDiver
Mar 27, 12, 10:11 pm
Sorry Joe but you're wrong.
Under "normal" circumstances, the PIC is always in command regardless of where he is, including the lav.
However if he's incapacitated then the FO assumes command.
Gotta disagree. The Captain may always be in command of the flight, but he's not always the pilot in command per the FAR definitions. The specific term is the PIC, which has specific meaning under the FARs.
joe
UA Fan
Mar 27, 12, 10:14 pm
Glad all pax are safe.
tdowl5757
Mar 27, 12, 10:14 pm
Look its tough to deal with people as a steward/stewardess especially if its a bankrupt carrier and the employer isn't treating you well.
Adam, keep your tin-foil hat on tight and try to remember they're called Flight Attendants
tdowl5757
Mar 27, 12, 10:15 pm
Gotta disagree. The Captain may always be in command of the flight, but he's not always the pilot in command per the FAR definitions. The specific term is the PIC, which has specific meaning under the FARs.
joe
Are you a pilot? Right, didn't think so....
kwildnj
Mar 27, 12, 10:23 pm
While a commercial site, this site does define PIC quite well.
http://www.paramountbusinessjets.com/charterterms/pilot_in_command.php
Bolding is mine
The pilot in command (PIC) of an aircraft is the person who is in charge of the aircraft and is the final authority over all operations and safety throughout the flight. Usually this is the captain when there is a two or three person crew in an airliner. In general aviation the pilot in command is the person with the highest rating. For instance if there are 2 pilots in an aircraft one with a private pilot rating and one with a commercial rating, the pilot with the commercial rating would be the pilot in command. He is legally responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft while it is in operation and if any FAR (federal aviation regulation) is broken. However, due to vague regulations the pilot does not always have to me manipulating the controls.
The FARs don’t say specifically what the pilot is commanding. It just says that he is in the command of the aircraft. They do not say whether he must be controlling the aircraft or if he is controlling the people on the aircraft. This has been a subject of controversy ever since the creation of the rules.
tdowl5757
Mar 27, 12, 10:29 pm
I know a couple Captains and asked one to clarify this, his answer is what I posted..... In Command is different than Controlling the Aircraft PIC always in command, even when FO is at the controls...
Sorry Joe, get back to those FAR regs and dig a little deeper...
N830MH
Mar 27, 12, 10:45 pm
Wow. That is incredibly frightening. I'm glad no one was injured, and everything turned out all right.
Wow! Just unbelievable!! What is heck going on the flight today? Hope my flight doesn't have any problem at all. I will keep eye on it.
tdowl5757
Mar 27, 12, 10:48 pm
Wow! Just unbelievable!! What is heck going on the flight today? Hope my flight doesn't have any problem at all. I will keep eye on it.
His resume checks out and he had no military experience, in fact he wanted to but he failed an eye exam for entrance into the Navy. Ive heard the same story with other high level West Point graduates and so on and so forth, and there was no issue there.
So obviously there would be no reason for him having trauma due to military anxieties as the media had reported earlier.
Full honors graduate as well. Also a connection back to Sullenberger in a sense:
Experimental Aircraft Association where Sullenberger and Skiles were both part of the organization.
This guy wasn't a troublemaker nor someone who would crash an airplane.
Who were the two other pilots and does anyone have a link to that?
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 28, 12, 1:36 am
It is not low.
Now, if it was and actual scheduled deadhead pilot, or a non-rev, OR a jump seater (even from another carrier). The possibility is not low of a qualified pilot being on board.
In a situation like this, quick decisions are made. Is it dire enough to bring in a qualified jump seater? Those are decisions made by only those involved.
There is no way to judge why this extra set of helping hands happened to be in the back. These are not documented facts at this time. There was a situation not long ago where a f/a was called into the c/p when another pilot fell ill. She had her license (private) and the other needed some eyes in the c/p. I believe in that situation it was also the Cpt. that was incapacitated.
The odds are quite good that 1) it was a deadheader, 2) it was a B6 non-revving pilot commuting or 3) it was a "hitching a ride" pilot for another airline. All of these situations are possible.
If any of those were not the case, it very well could have been a flight attendant called in for an extra set of eyes, OR the f/o would be in sole control of the a/c. Whichever was appropriate in the minutes that happened and the quick gut decisions were made.
Bottom line is, they landed safely. Pax stepped up. Pray for this man who clearly had a metal episode of some sort. Things happen quickly when something is amiss in the airline biz, and the f/o sounds like he was confident in his decisions. Being that this is all recorded, he knew that his actions would be reviewed/scrutinized, so he was THAT confident that he was in the right to go to this extreme.
There is no conspiracy theory here.
Low, but it was a B6 employee who worked as the replacement pilot per the official statement from the company.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 28, 12, 1:56 am
This whole post is pure comedy and ignorance, all rolled into one. Thanks for the laugh from the conspiracy supporters. I am sure you believe 9/11 was an inside job as well.
Who knows what happened. The scary part is the security aspect of this incident.
Certain locations are closely monitored though.
JetBlue incident involved a Captain and the flight was flying through critical areas of the nation. JetBlue is well capitalized and Captains make good salaries working for JetBlue. JetBlue planes are immaculately inspected and maintained and they have not a single hull loss.
The AA incident was a flight attendent and obviously facing stress due to the bankruptcy. AA2232 was an older AA MD80 jet and those are known to have higher failure rates as well. I personally would not fly on an AA MD80, though the new AA 737's coming in are very nice and the stewardess should have asked to be reallocated to the next available one rather than going on a ranting tirade.
After an incident like that with an employer, getting a new stewardess job with an airline is going to be quite tough.
In this instance, for a captain (who is yet named) to have an incident like this is very unusual and there are a lot of unknowns here and critical aspects in the flightpath and military concerns (nuclear, military bases and so on and so forth).
I do believe AA with their MD80s and older fleet should be grounded by the bankruptcy court but they are on strong ordering buys with newer aircraft.
Look its tough to deal with people as a steward/stewardess especially if its a bankrupt carrier and the employer isn't treating you well.
I understand it happening on AA but with JetBlue it just seems highly unusual.
adamj023
Mar 28, 12, 2:02 am
It is not low.
Now, if it was and actual scheduled deadhead pilot, or a non-rev, OR a jump seater (even from another carrier). The possibility is not low of a qualified pilot being on board.
In a situation like this, quick decisions are made. Is it dire enough to bring in a qualified jump seater? Those are decisions made by only those involved.
There is no way to judge why this extra set of helping hands happened to be in the back. These are not documented facts at this time. There was a situation not long ago where a f/a was called into the c/p when another pilot fell ill. She had her license (private) and the other needed some eyes in the c/p. I believe in that situation it was also the Cpt. that was incapacitated.
The odds are quite good that 1) it was a deadheader, 2) it was a B6 non-revving pilot commuting or 3) it was a "hitching a ride" pilot for another airline. All of these situations are possible.
If any of those were not the case, it very well could have been a flight attendant called in for an extra set of eyes, OR the f/o would be in sole control of the a/c. Whichever was appropriate in the minutes that happened and the quick gut decisions were made.
Bottom line is, they landed safely. Pax stepped up. Pray for this man who clearly had a metal episode of some sort. Things happen quickly when something is amiss in the airline biz, and the f/o sounds like he was confident in his decisions. Being that this is all recorded, he knew that his actions would be reviewed/scrutinized, so he was THAT confident that he was in the right to go to this extreme.
There is no conspiracy theory here.
A: Pilots are extremely well trained today coming from excellent universities and we entrust them day in and day out and the good airlines have solid track records, including advanced degrees and the like and lots of flying time.
B: I don't see a pilot like this with solid flight time and getting to the status of being a Captain who has no fears of flying or phobias just freaking out like this as alleged.
He was a quality pilot at JetBlue with a solid background, bright guy, loads of great connections in the industry and a good outstanding citizen.
So in my own mind something outside the ordinary had to have happened for this event to occur and I don't think in any way shape or form this pilot was intent on crashing this plane in any form as alleged if he got back in the cockpit.
Again, this wasn't an overworked underpaid and inexperienced crew nor pilot like we have seen time and time again with some of the regional carriers.
No one got hurt and no one was going to get hurt, the question remains as to the identity of the other 2 Captains on the flight.
The media reporting makes it seem like this was a Captain who went out of control and based on his background and the like, this does NOT seem to be a criminal nor even a Medical event since the true rationale as to what happened seems to be unable to ascertain without more accumulated information.
But the medias reporting of this story seems to do major injustice to what really happened.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 28, 12, 2:05 am
Not being a member of our honorable military forces does NOT make you immune to PSTD. 9/11 has played a major role for many of us that are in the industry now, and 9/11. We have all been plagued. Do not discount that we think of it every single day, many times of the day. Some chose to seek help, some do not. BUT, I can guarantee that none of us were the (mostly) innocents that we were then. It jacks with you, but you move on and cope. Obviously, it seems to be catching up to some.
His resume checks out and he had no military experience, in fact he wanted to but he failed an eye exam for entrance into the Navy. Ive heard the same story with other high level West Point graduates and so on and so forth, and there was no issue there.
So obviously there would be no reason for him having trauma due to military anxieties as the media had reported earlier.
Full honors graduate as well. Also a connection back to Sullenberger in a sense:
Experimental Aircraft Association where Sullenberger and Skiles were both part of the organization.
This guy wasn't a troublemaker nor someone who would crash an airplane.
Who were the two other pilots and does anyone have a link to that?
adamj023
Mar 28, 12, 2:25 am
Not being a member of our honorable military forces does NOT make you immune to PSTD. 9/11 has played a major role for many of us that are in the industry now, and 9/11. We have all been plagued. Do not discount that we think of it every single day, many times of the day. Some chose to seek help, some do not. BUT, I can guarantee that none of us were the (mostly) innocents that we are now. It jacks with you, but you move on and cope. Obviously, it seems to be catching up to some.
Wrong. This pilot was flying well after 9/11 had happened and was well up to the task psychologically and was in fact a Captain in a post 9/11 world.
The media is the one who keeps pressing with this information and its really dishonest reporting and it isn't what happened.
I flew on JetBlue post 9/11. I wasn't scared of flying per say with a super well qualified pilot and crew, just don't like turbulence myself personally. I'll go on a flight with a well qualified airline, crew and equipment without problem though Ive never quite gotten over the feeling of bad turbulence. It doesn't prevent me from flying, just makes me a little uncomfortable.
On the note of flying: A sad story: I was on JetBlue when I learned thru LiveTV that the remains of Aviation pioneer Steven Fossett were finally found.
But I don't believe someone like this would snap at all mentally. Also no struggle seems to have ensued on the LiveATC track of the flight in the cockpit.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 28, 12, 2:51 am
Well, there you go. You aren't crew, and you do not know how it plays a role in a crew members daily life. I am not saying is was the cause of this (PTSD), or the AA f/a, BUT, you cannot say that I am wrong. You cannot prove that. Period.
There is no disputing what video proves. You are fighting a losing battle with your argument.
Wrong. This pilot was flying well after 9/11 had happened and was well up to the task psychologically and was in fact a Captain in a post 9/11 world.
The media is the one who keeps pressing with this information and its really dishonest reporting and it isn't what happened.
I flew on JetBlue post 9/11. I wasn't scared of flying per say with a super well qualified pilot and crew, just don't like turbulence myself personally. I'll go on a flight with a well qualified airline, crew and equipment without problem though Ive never quite gotten over the feeling of bad turbulence. It doesn't prevent me from flying, just makes me a little uncomfortable.
On the note of flying: A sad story: I was on JetBlue when I learned thru LiveTV that the remains of Aviation pioneer Steven Fossett were finally found.
But I don't believe someone like this would snap at all mentally.
mbstone
Mar 28, 12, 3:36 am
According to the B6 statement the deadheading "replacement" pilot didn't assist until after landing, which makes sense -- I imagine the co-pilot (now the PIC) wouldn't have opened the door for anybody.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 28, 12, 3:39 am
I would have to agree, but there could have been a strategy of some sort if some erratic behavior was occuring. Bottom line, we. don't. know. More details will unfold soon enough.
According to the B6 statement the deadheading "replacement" pilot didn't assist until after landing, which makes sense -- I imagine the co-pilot (now the PIC) wouldn't have opened the door for anybody.
adamj023
Mar 28, 12, 4:41 am
There are so many versions of "the story" floating around (complete with contradictory information and incorrect assumptions) that it may well be a day or two before we all find out what REALLY transpired.
Incorrect information? One news item said the Captain had a medical issue and that the pilot-in-command diverted the aircraft to Amarillo. In truth, the Captain and the pilot-in-command are the same person. The other pilot is the co-pilot or first officer (F/O). Another story mentions the flight having multiple copilots, when there is only one. Still another story reports that an off-duty Captain took over, either in the air, or only once on the ground. It'll take a day or two for the truth to trickle down.
One of the things airlines train their pilots to look for are signs of what is called "incapacitation" and it comes in two flavors, "subtle" and "overt" (anything that isn't subtle). An example of subtle incapacitation is when while on an instrument approach in poor weather, should the one pilot (who is actually flying) not respond to altitude call-outs or other cockpit tasks uttered by the other non-flying pilot (who is monitoring everything) the non-flying pilot takes over the controls and aborts the approach/landing.
In the case of overt incapacitation, as its name implies, there's serious concern by one pilot over the other's behavior. Based on the fundamentals of what is known about 191's situation, at the very least it sounds as if the F/O had some seriousconcern about the Captain's behavior, assessed the behavior as a valid threat, and did the smart thing and got him out of the cockpit by whatever means he could. Once out, he was unable to get back in, and the F/O landed the aircraft all by himself, just as he would have if the Captain had theoretically had a heart attack and died in his seat. Many people think F/Os are not capable of doing everything a Captain can, but they are well-trained and just as much "real" pilots as the Captains are.
The general public may never know the real reason(s) why the Captain acted as he did here, and that's as it should be given medical privacy issues. What the traveling public should take comfort in is knowing that the possibilities of such events has been considered within training programs, and appropriate responses to such contingencies developed.
..and no, I don't work for jetBlue...
The press was the one who initially reported on the story and they always have a fascination with Airplane incidents which always make mainstream news especially during slow news cycles.
But what bothers me is the background of the person who was the Captain who was extremely well qualified and the press because if you actually watch TV news they make it seem like this guy was seriously out to kill the passengers on the jet and that the FBI has him in custody.
It is known The Plane was left in Amarillo, Texas and a ferry flight was used when in fact the existing plane was fully functional and could have been used to continue the journey. So obviously where are the flight data recorders and what will they show.
This plane is an Airbus A320 and the technology of the jet and its functionality is well documented and established.
From what I know about this Captain is that he was a fully dedicated and trained professional with true qualifications who wanted to serve his country admirably in the military and there is not one shred of evidence that he would do anything under his own accord to manipulate or interfere with an aircraft to kill passengers which is a very serious charge. This man was not a terrorist in any way shape or form.
And the truth is I do not trust the FBI under this administration whatsoever. They hold political vendetta investigations when they feel like it and I as an individual have not seen one shred of evidence that this man acted inappropriately under his own accord through the media.
FBI under the federal government has loads of abuse of power violations in this current administration.
And yes, while I am not trained as a pilot but have seen the cockpit of an A320 and have been on the planes before, I am aware of things including the existing airspace where this plane was travelling to and the fact that a TRUE TERRORIST, NOT THIS PILOT, could indeed use an airplane to crash into restricted airspace at nuclear, or other areas where air travel is not allowed.
A real terrorist in this area could have played havok and would have done so as a Captain considering potential targets in this region.
Sorry but there is not one shred of evidence against this pilot at this time and the media keeps quoting a story where all the real facts are not fully established.
Also the story quotes unknown federal sources who leaked information to the press on this matter.
Also if this man was taken to the hospital, I am presuming a full toxicology report will be issued.
No one got hurt, but do I believe any true nefarious activity was going on here by the captain with intent to cause harm? No I honestly do not.
Osbon has been a JetBlue captain for 12 years, but has been around planes for about 30 years.
Steller record, although I don't know specifically which JetBlue flights he has piloted, excellent superb credentials. No history of issues nor complaints, an outstanding man who was well liked by his peers from what Ive seen.
What I find sad is this man wasn't able to actually join the military because of poor eyesight when he would have been a big credit to the service.
Something is amiss in this whole ordeal as far as I am concerned.
SWCPHX
Mar 28, 12, 6:29 am
the media keeps quoting a story where all the real facts are not fully established.
Kinda like some of your posts you mean?
I'm shocked that between the information you've posted on this thread and on the earlier thread a month or so ago about DL merging with AA that some airline hasn't scooped you up as a consultant or executive. :rolleyes:
OPNLguy
Mar 28, 12, 6:54 am
The press was the one who initially reported on the story and they always have a fascination with Airplane incidents which always make mainstream news especially during slow news cycles.
But what bothers me is the background of the person who was the Captain who was extremely well qualified and the press because if you actually watch TV news they make it seem like this guy was seriously out to kill the passengers on the jet and that the FBI has him in custody.
...and there is not one shred of evidence that he would do anything under his own accord to manipulate or interfere with an aircraft to kill passengers which is a very serious charge. This man was not a terrorist in any way shape or form.
And the truth is I do not trust the FBI under this administration whatsoever. They hold political vendetta investigations when they feel like it and I as an individual have not seen one shred of evidence that this man acted inappropriately under his own accord through the media.
FBI under the federal government has loads of abuse of power violations in this current administration.
And yes, while I am not trained as a pilot but have seen the cockpit of an A320 and have been on the planes before, I am aware of things including the existing airspace where this plane was travelling to and the fact that a TRUE TERRORIST, NOT THIS PILOT, could indeed use an airplane to crash into restricted airspace at nuclear, or other areas where air travel is not allowed.
A real terrorist in this area could have played havok and would have done so as a Captain considering potential targets in this region.
Sorry but there is not one shred of evidence against this pilot at this time and the media keeps quoting a story where all the real facts are not fully established.
Also the story quotes unknown federal sources who leaked information to the press on this matter.
No one got hurt, but do I believe any true nefarious activity was going on here by the captain with intent to cause harm? No I honestly do not.
Osbon has been a JetBlue captain for 12 years, but has been around planes for about 30 years.
Steller record, although I don't know specifically which JetBlue flights he has piloted, excellent superb credentials. No history of issues nor complaints, an outstanding man who was well liked by his peers from what Ive seen.
Something is amiss in this whole ordeal as far as I am concerned.
I'm not going to even attempt to address all of your rambling points (such as they are), but the one thing that I continue to think you're failing to grasp is that this fellow didn't have to match any supposed stereotypical profile of a terrorist with an intended high-value ground target to perceived as a threat. Nobody, repeat, NOBODY (myself included) knows at this early point exactly what the Captain said or did that precipitated the F/O's action(s), but in that absence I think one can quite reasonably presume that the F/O seriously felt that the Captain posed a genuine threat to the aircraft and its occupants, hence he took the action(s) that he did.
As I said before, this wasn't a mutiny, and it seems to clearly be a case of the F/O reacting to the Captain's incapacitation. The F/O wasn't going to wait and risk the chance of the Captain going a little bit further and actually flipping a switch or control that was going actually put the aircraft in an irrecoverable situation, i.e., genuine danger.
It is known The Plane was left in Amarillo, Texas and a ferry flight was used when in fact the existing plane was fully functional and could have been used to continue the journey. So obviously where are the flight data recorders and what will they show.
The diverted aircraft in Amarillo was no longer "fully functional" as the F/O undoubtedly pulled the CVR circuit breaker once on the ground so that data of the event would have been maintained, and not written over. The CVR would have had to be replaced before further flight (not deferred by the MEL in this case), and I'd bet you that the ferry flight that operated LGB-AMA had a replacement CVR onboard and the mechanic to install it once at AMA.
Now, you may well hate/mistrust anything the government tells you, etc., but how about letting the professionals at jetBlue, FAA, NTSB, TSA do their jobs, and await the official outcome? (Not that you're likely to believe their findings...)
Dr. HFH
Mar 28, 12, 7:06 am
passengers go nuts and its a criminal act/felony.
Flight crew does it and they are "sick"
+1. IMO flight crew going nuts is far more dangerous to the safety of the flight, as flight crew knows numerous ways in which to bring the plane down. This guy should be prosecuted, along with the AA FA who went nuts a few weeks ago taxiing at DFW.
OPNLguy
Mar 28, 12, 7:09 am
According to the B6 statement the deadheading "replacement" pilot didn't assist until after landing, which makes sense -- I imagine the co-pilot (now the PIC) wouldn't have opened the door for anybody.
..and rightly so, thanks to the post-9/11 world we now find ourselves operating in.
Media reports still differ as to whether the deadheading Captain came into the cockpit while they were still airborne, or only once on the ground, but it really doesn't matter all that much. If it was just the F/O up there, he was certainly able to land the aircraft by himself. If the deadheading Captain came into the cockpit only after landing, it may have been to help get the aircraft to the gate, assuming the A320 has a nosewheel tiller only of the Captain's side, like the 737 does.
exerda
Mar 28, 12, 7:16 am
Taking off tin foil headgear, it's clear that though we don't have all the details, the captain did indeed "snap." It can happen to anyone; pilots aren't immune.
t325
Mar 28, 12, 7:19 am
Why did the pilot freak out? It doesn't have to be psychological. Maybe he had a stroke. My grandmother was hallucinating and delusional shortly after she had a stroke. High fevers can also cause some hallucinations too. I hope for the pilot's sake, it was just a fever and he can fully recover, and it's not something more debilitating like a stroke.
Why was there another pilot on board? Maybe he is based out of LAS and was commuting to work. Maybe he is based out of JFK but was deadheading to LAS to fly another flight. Or maybe he was just on vacation and wanted to go to LAS for the same reasons everyone else wants to go to LAS.
Why was there a ferry flight to pick passengers up? The FAA probably wants to check out the cockpit voice recorder to find out exactly what the hell happened. So the plane needed to stay in AMA for the time being.
But keep the conspiracy theories coming, they're entertaining.
OPNLguy
Mar 28, 12, 7:27 am
So the plane needed to stay in AMA for the time being.
But keep the conspiracy theories coming, they're entertaining.
Looks like the aircraft ferried AMA-LGB this morning as JBU6101...
Geesh. You just never know what you'll encounter, do you?! :confused:
N830MH
Mar 28, 12, 8:37 am
Where are you going Scotty?
Actually, I am flying to JFK and now, I am turnaround back to PHX now.
Diamondback
Mar 28, 12, 9:49 am
So, it's a bit of a stretch but the whole incident reminds me of one of my fav movies of all time, Crimson Tide. Who has ultimate power? What happens if the Captain needs to be relieved of his powers by the FO/XO? If the two believe they are both right/correct, what happens next? I'm guessing airlines have policies around these things but they can't possibly cover all scenarios, right?
enviroian
Mar 28, 12, 10:00 am
Will this pilot ever be behind a joystick again?
sdsorority
Mar 28, 12, 10:31 am
Will this pilot ever be behind a joystick again?
.....if so, hopefully not a flight I'm on. :rolleyes: :eek:
AirShuttle6162
Mar 28, 12, 11:11 am
Again, this wasn't an overworked underpaid and inexperienced crew nor pilot like we have seen time and time again with some of the regional carriers.
Not all regional crews are "inexperienced". In my time at the regionals I worked with several furloughed UA,AA and DL pilots, some of them even came on as street captains with 5-6000 hours flight time. As far as another pilot being on board, its quite common to have several on board any given flight, due to the sheer number of commuters these days because of ever changing domiciles
MattFLL
Mar 28, 12, 11:27 am
crazy story...
Here is a gag response letter from the airline, apologizing to the passengers:
And of course, I love JetBlue--just cracking on the industry these days.
MattFLL
Mar 28, 12, 11:31 am
What kind of apology letter would an airline write after their own captain had a mental breakdown?
---
Dear Passenger,
We've received your most recent correspondence and are disappointed to learn that you were unhappy with your most recent experience. At the same time, we’re glad that you have provided us with comments. Please be assured, we will use this as a learning experience.
Our pilots, copilots, gate agents, and flight attendants are screened thoroughly for mental health. Unfortunately, due to sheer nature of frequent contact with passengers, their mental stability is inevitably compromised. Unruly passengers continue to make the excessive and unreasonable demand of reaching their final destination. When that demand is not met, unfortunately, passengers expect compensation for denied boarding in an overbooking situation, access to food/water/lavatories during tarmac delays, re-routing during a mechanical delay situation, and perhaps the most extreme—a response to every complaint when those services are not rendered. Delivery of these services is not possible, due to security reasons, of course. These demands inevitably impact our staff, who may be required to use physical force and/or purposely induce fear, such as threatening to crash the aircraft as you experienced yesterday.
However, your perceptions and comments were reviewed by the responsible management personnel. We are truly dedicated to making certain that our customers have a pleasant experience when flying with us. Your constructive criticism will help us meet that objective as we will review our policies.
Our Contract of Carriage (addendum 21, released today) clearly state “Any member of the in-flight crew may execute any means necessary (including, but not limited to mental or physical torture) if he or she feels that aircraft operations may be compromised”. As you see, even during his medical event, our pilot heroically following our policy which echoes the industry standard.
However, as a gesture of good will and based on your loyalty, I have added 10 bonus miles to your account. The miles may be applied towards select flights which depart one year from your date of birth.
We hope to see you aboard real soon.
Sincerely,
R. G. H. F. Smith
Customer Relations
Note: Due to security purposes, you can only reply to this message on a web form with a 100 character limit. We respond to all feedback within 7 years or after bankruptcy, whichever comes first.
--
[THIS IS A SPOOF AND NOT A GENUINE RESPONSE FROM JETBLUE.
No offense to JetBlue; this could have happened on any airline. The purpose of this letter is to simply make fun of complaint responses from the passenger's point of view].
No offense to JetBlue... I'm just cracking fun at what flying has become these days.
dhuey
Mar 28, 12, 11:37 am
Something is amiss in this whole ordeal as far as I am concerned.
I think you hit the nail on the head earlier:
Only other thing I could think of is perhaps this flight was used as a safety drill and this was planned in advance.
[cabin door opens, guy in suit walks in]
Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of JetBlue Airways we would like to thank you all for participating in this unannounced safety drill. Gentlemen, please release your choke-hold of the "captain" -- he's actually a professional actor. Let's give it up for Clayton; I understand his "pilot freaking out" performance was very realistic and extremely frightening.
[applause]
Now, we've got some paperwork to do, so please make yourselves comfortable. If you like, feel free to enjoy Amarillo for a bit, but please be back no later than four hours from now when we depart for Las Vegas.
Finally, as a special thank-you for participating in this drill, the flight attendants will be coming down the aisle with a free beverage service. Yes, beer, wine, mixed drinks -- all on us. I personally suggest a Kamikaze, which we're making with top call brands and fresh lime juice.
FWAAA
Mar 28, 12, 1:30 pm
..and rightly so, thanks to the post-9/11 world we now find ourselves operating in.
Media reports still differ as to whether the deadheading Captain came into the cockpit while they were still airborne, or only once on the ground, but it really doesn't matter all that much. If it was just the F/O up there, he was certainly able to land the aircraft by himself. If the deadheading Captain came into the cockpit only after landing, it may have been to help get the aircraft to the gate, assuming the A320 has a nosewheel tiller only of the Captain's side, like the 737 does.
Reports today indicate that the first officer knew of the off-duty captain and that the off-duty captain was immediately admitted to the flight deck while the other captain was being escorted to the rear of the aircraft:
I'm not a physician, but the descriptions of his behaviour sound a little like a stroke and a little like a complete mental meltdown.
Oddly, though, the media are talking about possible criminal charges, and that discussion seems very premature to me.
sunnyjl
Mar 28, 12, 1:41 pm
Reports today indicate that the first officer knew of the off-duty captain and that the off-duty captain was immediately admitted to the flight deck while the other captain was being escorted to the rear of the aircraft:
I'm not a physician, but the descriptions of his behaviour sound a little like a stroke and a little like a complete mental meltdown.
Oddly, though, the media are talking about possible criminal charges, and that discussion seems very premature to me.
I am a medical professional and this clearly was not a stroke. Could have been a mental breakdown or something else. At any rate, the co-pilot deserves major kudos for handling this situation the way he did, getting the captain out of the cockpit and all. Great job.
essxjay
Mar 28, 12, 3:18 pm
JetBlue Pilot Charged for Actions on Flight (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303404704577309712982500098.html?m od=e2fb)
Federal authorities filed criminal charges against the JetBlue Airways Corp. pilot whose erratic actions diverted a New York-to-Las Vegas flight Tuesday, describing fresh details of a harrowing scene inside the cockpit that led to the plane's unscheduled landing in Texas.
Clayton Osbon was charged with "knowingly" interfering with the flight crew of Flight 191, according to the charges filed Wednesday in the U.S. District Court in Amarillo, Texas, where the flight landed after Mr. Osbon was subdued.
Mr. Osbon began exhibiting bizarre behavior soon after takeoff from John F. Kennedy International Airport Tuesday morning, according to a Federal Bureau of Investigation affidavit filed with the charges.
He asked his co-pilot to take over the controls, and told the co-pilot "things just don't matter." He yelled at air-traffic controllers over the aircraft's radio, telling them to be quiet, then turned off the radio and starting dimming his monitors, according to the FBI affidavit, which cited interviews with the co-pilot and other crew members.
The co-pilot "became really worried when Osbon said 'we need to take a leap of faith,' " the affidavit says, recounting what the co-pilot described as a "sermon." Mr. Osbon also talked about "sins" in Las Vegas, and told the co-pilot "we're not going to Vegas," it says.
OPNLguy
Mar 28, 12, 3:22 pm
At any rate, the co-pilot deserves major kudos for handling this situation the way he did, getting the captain out of the cockpit and all. Great job.
Oddly, though, the media are talking about possible criminal charges, and that discussion seems very premature to me.
Often where mental illness is a big factor, a prosecutor will bring criminal charges that end up being dismissed as part of a plea bargain requiring extensive mental health treatment. The charges can be useful leverage to force a reluctant defendant to get the help he truly needs.
adamj023
Mar 28, 12, 3:53 pm
Barger the CEO admits to knowing him personally for years and he was a pilot in excellent standing with no problem history and admits there was more going on here but didn't elaborate.
But I wasn't joking about the location of this flight and knowing what is in the area and the fact he was acting out of character.
But do I believe in any way shape or form this man was a criminal or intent to crash the plane? No, I don't. Not of his own free will.
volvo99
Mar 28, 12, 4:14 pm
The whole situation is bizarre. Why? Because the plane was flying perfectly and there was no struggle in the cockpit but rather the Captain gets locked out after allegedly he goes to the bathroom as the story goes.
Then he says all these things about middle eastern nations and wars and the like. How do the passengers know the cockpit wasn't compromised.
Something is amiss, plus the other flight from Amarillo is in route right now and has not arrived.
Allegedly a security conference was going on in Las Vegas area.
Remember this didn't happen till a bathroom break incident and the plane was flying perfectly the whole way. Only when there was alleged bathroom break and/or the plane got further into western usa airspace in a certain area did the event happen.
B6 just can't seem to catch a break, can't they? From employees disgracing themselves intentionally, or unintentionally, and rather callous customer service gaffes involving everything from families to blizzards, events like these threaten to really tarnish their shiny jet image.
Time to roll up the sleeves ala Starbucks and get back to basics from a corporate leadership direction.
adamj023
Mar 28, 12, 4:30 pm
B6 just can't seem to catch a break, can't they? From employees disgracing themselves intentionally, or unintentionally, and rather callous customer service gaffes involving everything from families to blizzards, events like these threaten to really tarnish their shiny jet image.
Time to roll up the sleeves ala Starbucks and get back to basics from a corporate leadership direction.
The US Attorney in Texas is an Obama appointee. Plus as I stated alread, A USA nuclear weapons assembly and disassembly facility Pantex is located 17 miles away plus you have restricted airspaces in those areas.
The other day before this case was going on I was discussing Obama's decision to reduce our nuclear stock piles and the START Treaty.
Little did I know a pilot of Jetblue an Honorable man would somehow be thrown into the mix and something went on here which was outside the norm.
I smell political destruction here, which has been a key of the Obama administration which is the most dangerous administration this nation has ever seen.
Here is a youtube video of another incoherent man, a good high level military man who was found murdered thereafter.
I smell a foul and as I said, something really stinks here. I believe in no way shape or form would this pilot be intent on killing passengers on the aircraft and this FBI investigation smells of a political prosecution.
This was a pilot of 12 years who was an outstanding pilot day in and day out with no complaints as Barger attested to.
As I said, loads of facts are being left out and it seemed like the whole incident was launched with leaks from the federal government for their own political reasons.
dhuey
Mar 28, 12, 4:38 pm
The US Attorney in Texas is an Obama appointee. Plus as I stated alread, A USA nuclear weapons assembly and disassembly facility Pantex is located 17 miles away plus you have restricted airspaces in those areas.
The other day before this case was going on I was discussing Obama's decision to reduce our nuclear stock piles and the START Treaty.
Little did I know a pilot of Jetblue an Honorable man would somehow be thrown into the mix and something went on here which was outside the norm.
I smell political destruction here, which has been a key of the Obama administration which is the most dangerous administration this nation has ever seen.
Here is a youtube video of another incoherent man, a good high level military man who was found murdered thereafter.
I smell a foul and as I said, something really stinks here. I believe in no way shape or form would this pilot be intent on killing passengers on the aircraft and this FBI investigation smells of a political prosecution.
This was a pilot of 12 years who was an outstanding pilot day in and day out with no complaints as Barger attested to.
As I said, loads of facts are being left out and it seemed like the whole incident was launched with leaks from the federal government for their own political reasons.
Yes...um, adamj023, I'm sensing trouble with the left engine. One of us should head back and take a look at it. You have more experience with this sort of thing. I could mind the controls while you check it out. Here, let me open the cockpit door for you.
NY-FLA
Mar 28, 12, 4:47 pm
Can someone please remind me again, why it's deemed appropriate for flight crew to bypass airport security checks, carry loaded weapons on-board and generally be treated as infallible gods of the airways whose very word is law?
I do have sympathy for the captain involved, and hope he can make a quick and effective recovery, but I heavily resent providing good funding to the airlines, being treated continually like an almost terrorist, when quantitatively, the biggest threats and risks to my safety are often wearing airline uniforms.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 28, 12, 4:51 pm
+1, you took the words right out of my fingers!
Yes...um, adamj023, I'm sensing trouble with the left engine. One of us should head back and take a look at it. You have more experience with this sort of thing. I could mind the controls while you check it out. Here, let me open the cockpit door for you.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 28, 12, 4:57 pm
Crews go through the same security you do. Only pilots certified as ffdo's are allowed to bypass. They have to go though a whole different series of psych tests and qualifications and rights, before becoming ffdo.
Could someone get past that psych testing? Probably. What about Air Marshalls? Or LEO's traveling in the back with guns that work for USPS? I mean, come on...... Mental break downs are going to happen in the most inconvenient places. No just mental hospitals. In a war zone, in a ER, in a police uniform.
Maybe everyone should just stay home and never leave their houses
Can someone please remind me again, why it's deemed appropriate for flight crew to bypass airport security checks, carry loaded weapons on-board and generally be treated as infallible gods of the airways whose very word is law?
I do have sympathy for the captain involved, and hope he can make a quick and effective recovery, but I heavily resent providing good funding to the airlines, being treated continually like an almost terrorist, when quantitatively, the biggest threats and risks to my safety are often wearing airline uniforms.
M60_to_LGA
Mar 28, 12, 4:59 pm
Can someone please remind me again, why it's deemed appropriate for flight crew to bypass airport security checks, carry loaded weapons on-board and generally be treated as infallible gods of the airways whose very word is law?
Because, in the United States, we fetishize authority figures, especially those who are or have been in the military. And because many if not most commercial pilots in the US are ex-military, so they demand to be treated with obeisance by us inferior civilians.
And because one of our political parties has made the right to unfettered access to high-powered weapons of war a religious question to which no opposition can be tolerated.
Or was that a rhetorical question?
volvo99
Mar 28, 12, 5:05 pm
PTSD from serving in the middle east perhaps? Don't pilots go through psychological testing/screening on an annual basis?
I wonder how much this little snafoo will cost jetBlue.
Nope; just PTSD acquired from Shiny Jet Syndrome from working at a scab airline with scab wages on borrowed aircraft maintained by scab maintenance and a scab employee group working from home. :mad:
The US Attorney in Texas is an Obama appointee. Plus as I stated alread, A USA nuclear weapons assembly and disassembly facility Pantex is located 17 miles away plus you have restricted airspaces in those areas.
The other day before this case was going on I was discussing Obama's decision to reduce our nuclear stock piles and the START Treaty.
Little did I know a pilot of Jetblue an Honorable man would somehow be thrown into the mix and something went on here which was outside the norm.
I smell political destruction here, which has been a key of the Obama administration which is the most dangerous administration this nation has ever seen.
Here is a youtube video of another incoherent man, a good high level military man who was found murdered thereafter.
I smell a foul and as I said, something really stinks here. I believe in no way shape or form would this pilot be intent on killing passengers on the aircraft and this FBI investigation smells of a political prosecution.
This was a pilot of 12 years who was an outstanding pilot day in and day out with no complaints as Barger attested to.
As I said, loads of facts are being left out and it seemed like the whole incident was launched with leaks from the federal government for their own political reasons.
Or; just a scab pilot having had it with scab working conditions and scab pay.
The US Attorney in Texas is an Obama appointee. Plus as I stated alread, A USA nuclear weapons assembly and disassembly facility Pantex is located 17 miles away plus you have restricted airspaces in those areas.
The other day before this case was going on I was discussing Obama's decision to reduce our nuclear stock piles and the START Treaty.
Little did I know a pilot of Jetblue an Honorable man would somehow be thrown into the mix and something went on here which was outside the norm.
I smell political destruction here, which has been a key of the Obama administration which is the most dangerous administration this nation has ever seen.
Here is a youtube video of another incoherent man, a good high level military man who was found murdered thereafter.
I smell a foul and as I said, something really stinks here. I believe in no way shape or form would this pilot be intent on killing passengers on the aircraft and this FBI investigation smells of a political prosecution.
This was a pilot of 12 years who was an outstanding pilot day in and day out with no complaints as Barger attested to.
As I said, loads of facts are being left out and it seemed like the whole incident was launched with leaks from the federal government for their own political reasons.
In truth, I don't know which is sadder, the fact that a seemingly normal and very well thought of airline captain had some type of mental issue that resulted in this diversion, or your continued rambling about politically-driven conspiracies and other nonsense of which you clearly know nothing about.
The affidavit of the responding FBI agent in Amarillo has hit the media newswires in the last few hours, and it greatly clarifies most of the previous questions and comments in this thread topic as to what did (and didn't) happen. If anything, it further justifies the F/O's response (as if it even needed justification to begin with) and goes into greater detail as to the captain's behavior. I think any rational person would conclude that it was the captain's demonstrated behavior, as well as the potential for his behavior that was deemed the threat--NOT that he had any premeditated intent or targets in mind. Nor was Obama, the GOP, the Dems, the Commies, the AARP, or the Girl Scouts of America behind any supposed kind of conspiracy that drove the captain to do what he did. I know that won't satisfy you, but relax in the comfort of your own delusions.
To wrap things up, jetBlue had a situation with one of their flights, and the other flight and cabin crewmembers did a great job in playing the hand that they were dealt. Your reading anything more into it than the unfortunate mental breakdown of another human being is both incorrect and similarly sad.
Keep an eye out for those black ninjas rappelling out of the Blackhawks...
NY-FLA
Mar 28, 12, 5:30 pm
Crews go through the same security you do. Only pilots certified as ffdo's are allowed to bypass. They have to go though a whole different series of psych tests and qualifications and rights, before becoming ffdo.
Really? Do you think airline crew go through back-scatter machines, have to divest of those frightening >3oz. liquids, wait in agonizingly slow, long lines? Yeah, it's the "same security", sure, but different, or I need to start going to the airports you frequent.
For additional credit, perhaps you could read up on the DL FA incident, discovered with a handgun at STL which she had originally brought with her from home at her origination in ATL, where, guess what, she never had to go through security to get on her ATL outbound flight.
You can keep believing that the security show is rational, I'm not buying it.
Maybe everyone should just stay home and never leave their houses
Not realistic, nor my suggestion. Don't expect me to quietly believe that security is bettered by exempting whole classes of individuals based on who employs them. It's a crock, and it's time more of us started objecting noisily to its premises.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 28, 12, 5:41 pm
Being crew myself, I can override what you are saying as I live it.
I will give you liquids. Sure, if you really wanna go there. Score one for you. Been in the business for 20 years and and have never bypassed security though, even with an FBI background clearance, which was mandated by the post 9/11 scare-fest. The FBI check that pax do not have to be subjected to.
Also, you do not have to go through back scatter machines. That is your right. Opt for it. Or you can follow all the others that wanna give up their rights in order for convenience.
Bottom line. Pilots have control of the a/c. Does a gun really matter at that point? Exactly.
Really? Do you think airline crew go through back-scatter machines, have to divest of those frightening >3oz. liquids, wait in agonizingly slow, long lines? Yeah, it's the "same security", sure, but different, or I need to start going to the airports you frequent.
For additional credit, perhaps you could read up on the DL FA incident, discovered with a handgun at STL which she had originally brought with her from home at her origination in ATL, where, guess what, she never had to go through security to get on her ATL outbound flight.
You can keep believing that the security show is rational, I'm not buying it.
Not realistic, nor my suggestion. Don't expect me to quietly believe that security is bettered by exempting whole classes of individuals based on who employs them. It's a crock, and it's time more of us started objecting noisily to its premises.
NY-FLA
Mar 28, 12, 5:53 pm
Being crew myself, I can override what you are saying as I live it.
I will give you liquids. Sure, if you really wanna go there. Score one for you. Been in the business for 20 years and and have never bi-passed security though, even with an FBI background clearance, which was mandated by the post 9/11 scare-fest. The FBI check that pax do not have to be subjected to.
Bottom line. Pilots have control of the a/c. Does a gun really matter at that point? Exactly.
Didn't realize you were crew. Not sure why that gives you the ability to override what I'm posting (your words), or to rub out factual anecdotes. I live it too, just from a different perspective.
As crew, you don't go through the backscatter and don't get groped if you opt-out of it. Score another for me. And I've been thru the post 9/11 FBI back-ground check thank-you, so your conclusion that pax did not have to do this is really an ignorant generalization.
And to echo your condescending, genaralizing approach, as crew, you always blithely push past me just as I get to the head of the Bataan March line, because, well, you're crew, and the airline cannot operate without you. So you don't wait in agonizingly slow lines like those of us who effectively pay your salary do. Score another for me.
NoMiddleSeat
Mar 28, 12, 5:58 pm
Makes me wonder if the FFDO program is such a good idea.... if this guy was carrying it would change the dynamics of what happened I'm sure.
LoneStarMike
Mar 28, 12, 6:01 pm
Here's the link (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/03/28/osbon.complaint.and.affidavit.pdf?hpt=hp_c2) to the FBI report. The agent interviewed the FO, the deadheading jetBlue pilot and two of the three flight attendants.
adamj023
Mar 28, 12, 6:13 pm
In truth, I don't know which is sadder, the fact that a seemingly normal and very well thought of airline captain had some type of mental issue that resulted in this diversion, or your continued rambling about politically-driven conspiracies and other nonsense of which you clearly know nothing about.
The affidavit of the responding FBI agent in Amarillo has hit the media newswires in the last few hours, and it greatly clarifies most of the previous questions and comments in this thread topic as to what did (and didn't) happen. If anything, it further justifies the F/O's response (as if it even needed justification to begin with) and goes into greater detail as to the captain's behavior. I think any rational person would conclude that it was the captain's demonstrated behavior, as well as the potential for his behavior that was deemed the threat--NOT that he had any premeditated intent or targets in mind. Nor was Obama, the GOP, the Dems, the Commies, the AARP, or the Girl Scouts of America behind any supposed kind of conspiracy that drove the captain to do what he did. I know that won't satisfy you, but relax in the comfort of your own delusions.
To wrap things up, jetBlue had a situation with one of their flights, and the other flight and cabin crewmembers did a great job in playing the hand that they were dealt. Your reading anything more into it than the unfortunate mental breakdown of another human being is both incorrect and similarly sad.
Keep an eye out for those black ninjas rappelling out of the Blackhawks...
Your comments here as well as the FBI charges are completely ludicruous and the whole trial and case was played out in the media.
I know EXACTLY what I am talking about here. I have been a flyer on jetplanes for awhile, know people who do, know of pilots who have performed admiraly time in and time out and have seen the evolution of modern flight through my very eyes.
The media driving a story here and a sequence of events and putting an outstanding pilot who deserved to be in the US Military with full honors at risk.
Not one single person has come out with any negative behavior against this person except for the flight crew and the passengers who followed along with the sequence of events.
From Barger and many others, this man was a highly credentialed pilot who I personally would have been proud to fly on their plane.
And as I said there has been NO INTENT here for him to crash the plane provable by FREE WILL with anything known to date.
Yes I am aware of terroristic indictments and military tribunals and cases where humans are well deserving of the electric chair in terms of punishment or worse.
But in this case, there is absolutely no justification for criminal indictments from the FBI and such a CASE MUST BE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED with other factors playing a role on this matter. There is no other way I am sorry to say.
I saw the FBI launch an investigation into people based on political motivated reasons time and time again but in this case an honorable man's reputation is on the line and hopefully he will wind up with representation in court who will show really what happened here if such becomes required, someone with military experience and high level access.
FBI has covered a vast array of cases over the years but there is no way this pilot is going down, because if he does, it is a serious breach of justice and the FBI getting involved due to political reasons to do Barack Obama and his administrations evil bidding and such will be exposed.
There is no other way to put it. I am reviewing the FBI document right now however and it pretty much doesn't explain anything, this isn't even a partially classified document as far as I can tell, just an analysis of a sequence of events but no proof of anything.
Without collaboration and without the testimony of the pilot able to speak on his own behalf, that in itself presents an issue as well.
The ATC records are all recorded and I have reviewed the initial LIVE ATC events with Amarillo Texas tower and there was no yelling on that track which would be the most likely track he would have yelled at considering that is the point where he was getting ejected from the flight since you contact the initial closest tower when there is an emergency situation.
I was not able to do the full analysis to identify the initial communications at that tower to identify based on voice patterns which pilots they were however.
The FBI report doesn't even say which airport tower the pilot yelled at which would be needed so one could verify the track and the sequence of events.
FWAAA
Mar 28, 12, 6:27 pm
Yes...um, adamj023, I'm sensing trouble with the left engine. One of us should head back and take a look at it. You have more experience with this sort of thing. I could mind the controls while you check it out. Here, let me open the cockpit door for you.
@:-)
:-: Post of the month. :-:
mbstone
Mar 28, 12, 6:36 pm
OMG I'm so distraught. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=giLt3aLS_HM)
orlandodlplat
Mar 28, 12, 6:39 pm
I know EXACTLY what I am talking about here. I have been a flyer on jetplanes for awhile
Whoa. Wait a minute. Hold the phone. That's so impressive. You really are an expert.
Indeed, you're selling yourself short. You're an accomplished armchair airline CEO over on the DL board.
FWAAA
Mar 28, 12, 6:40 pm
Nope; just PTSD acquired from Shiny Jet Syndrome from working at a scab airline with scab wages on borrowed aircraft maintained by scab maintenance and a scab employee group working from home. :mad:
Or; just a scab pilot having had it with scab working conditions and scab pay.
Captain Osbon (now criminal defendant Osbon) makes more money than a USAir (West) pilot flying A320s and significantly more money than a USAir (East) pilot flying A320s. Scab pay? Hardly.
dhuey
Mar 28, 12, 6:54 pm
I know EXACTLY what I am talking about here.
I've joked around above, but let me be completely sincere with you. What you're posting here is crazy. There's actually no harm in that. You can indulge these thoughts and post them here, and nothing bad will happen to you. What I dearly hope is that you can treat these postings of yours as a fantasy diversion in your life.
The critical thing you need to understand is that if you express these thoughts in the presence of co-workers, fellow parents at a school, close relatives, etc., they will think you've gone insane. Yes, perhaps I'm part of the conspiracy, but please give at least a little thought to the idea that I'm genuinely worried about you.
adamj023
Mar 28, 12, 6:56 pm
When he got locked out its clear he said what he said, but the point I was making is : It was either in a joking manner OR it was done outside of free will.
The only plausible explations I see now are : Something outside the realm of what we know or political motivated prosecution or fully knowing this was a flight heading to the International Security Conference in Las Vegas designed to improve security and was actually a STAGED EVENT.
I don't see any intent and that is what the FBI is alleging here.
This pilot was way brighter than you can imagine and had loads of flying time behind him.
I would love for this pilot to be interviewed at a later date, but hopefully no outside manipulation took place.
I do not consider this a case driven by the media deserving of any indictment whatsoever.
That isn't being crazy at all. The political motivation is still at play here because to have the US DOJ with an Obama appointee prosecute this case is absolutely disgusting as far as I am concerned and there is no way under any senario I will believe otherwise.
Plenty of folks have seen unjust prosecutions.
OPNLguy
Mar 28, 12, 7:04 pm
Your comments here as well as the FBI charges are completely ludicruous and the whole trial and case was played out in the media..
Oh, I see, you're a legal expert too... :rolleyes:
What color is the sun on your planet?
antirealist
Mar 28, 12, 7:08 pm
The only plausible explations I see now are : Something outside the realm of what we know...
You do know that Fringe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fringe_(TV_series)) is not a documentary, right?
mbstone
Mar 28, 12, 7:16 pm
Never reveal your FT password to your drinking buddies.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 28, 12, 7:17 pm
You know what? Crew members HATE to go to the front of the line. I am sure that you think we feel entitled to do it. We don't. It sucks, but that is our instruction from the ALL KNOWING TSA. I irritaies me that they instruct us to do that then say nothing to the pax that have been waiting. it is the least favorite part of my day. But, I SERIOUSLY digress..
Good for you for going through the FBI background check! You one of a smallish percentage in billions of people. I am not the government. I don't want you to go through hassle. It's a dog and pony show, period. You really can't say walking through one way is any safer then walking through another way.
And likening this in any way to pilots being armed, or an argument for or against that is silly, considering THEY have hands that fly a jet at 40,000 feet above the ground.
Didn't realize you were crew. Not sure why that gives you the ability to override what I'm posting (your words), or to rub out factual anecdotes. I live it too, just from a different perspective.
As crew, you don't go through the backscatter and don't get groped if you opt-out of it. Score another for me. And I've been thru the post 9/11 FBI back-ground check thank-you, so your conclusion that pax did not have to do this is really an ignorant generalization.
And to echo your condescending, genaralizing approach, as crew, you always blithely push past me just as I get to the head of the Bataan March line, because, well, you're crew, and the airline cannot operate without you. So you don't wait in agonizingly slow lines like those of us who effectively pay your salary do. Score another for me.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 28, 12, 7:19 pm
i like to think mine would be a nice shade of pink.
Oh, I see, you're a legal expert too... :rolleyes:
What color is the sun on your planet?
OPNLguy
Mar 28, 12, 7:21 pm
i like to think mine would be a nice shade of pink.
I somehow don't think his is...
tdowl5757
Mar 28, 12, 7:24 pm
I think you hit the nail on the head earlier:[I][cabin door opens, guy in suit walks in]
You (among others) now owe me a glass of Chateau Thames Embankment spit on the screen.....
While I've been a bit glib on Adam, I do feel for Captain Clayton Frederick Osbon and hope he recovers soon.
adamj023
Mar 28, 12, 7:37 pm
You (among others) now owe me a glass of Chateau Thames Embankment spit on the screen.....
While I've been a bit glib on Adam, I do feel for Captain Clayton Frederick Osbon and hope he recovers soon.
Lots of stuff happens in this planet on a realtime basis. But I do admit one thing:
Life will get a heck of a lot better for a lot of people after we go through a major political shakeup here in the USA.
From the TSA disasters to the FBI prosecuting an honorable pilot, and so on and so forth.
JetBlue has been a quality firm and I would still fly it even today.
I admit, there are multiple firms of airlines that are quite good today and nothing here diminishes JetBlues safety record in any way whatsoever.
This incident is just one of many of what is wrong with this country right now and the location point of Amarillo Texas to boot the pilot is also suspect which as I mentioned has the nuclear facility in the area as I already mentioned. If he was really a threat why wasn't he booted earlier if he was that much a risk to the airplane.
Passengers acted on bequest of the flight attendents and other staffers insisting he was a threat.
I realize Im analyzing this from outside the perspective of being inside the airplane but the allegations that this FBI made against this man were absolutely perposterous and mind boggling.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 28, 12, 7:41 pm
oh boy, you are seriously giving me a case of the giggles with this one!
I somehow don't think his is...
freeupgrade
Mar 28, 12, 7:55 pm
The FO should be Promoted immediately.
Well Done!
Thank goodness the plane landed safely, and everyone is okay.
adamj023
Mar 28, 12, 8:03 pm
The FO should be Promoted immediately.
Well Done!
Thank goodness the plane landed safely, and everyone is okay.
The captain arrived late and missed the crew briefing. How is that permissible? Doesn't the airline need to bring in a reserve pilot?
His erratic behavior began at takeoff (assuming we don't count missing the crew briefing as erratic behavior) and continued for three and a half hours, and included the captain yelling at air traffic controllers.
So the air traffic controllers do nothing when they get yelled out? They must get yelled at a lot.
The FO has no way to signal anyone anywhere that there's trouble in the cockpit for an entire three and a half hours?
The FO has to wait for the erratic captain to go to the bathroom? Nothing else could be done before then?
Since this is being treated as a crime, that presumably means the NTSB will not be allowed to investigate, there will be no transcript of the cockpit conversations made available to the public.
dhuey
Mar 28, 12, 9:46 pm
The truth is out there.
And you're right there with the truth, adamj023.
adamj023
Mar 28, 12, 9:54 pm
The captain arrived late and missed the crew briefing. How is that permissible? Doesn't the airline need to bring in a reserve pilot?
His erratic behavior began at takeoff (assuming we don't count missing the crew briefing as erratic behavior) and continued for three and a half hours, and included the captain yelling at air traffic controllers.
So the air traffic controllers do nothing when they get yelled out? They must get yelled at a lot.
The FO has no way to signal anyone anywhere that there's trouble in the cockpit for an entire three and a half hours?
The FO has to wait for the erratic captain to go to the bathroom? Nothing else could be done before then?
Since this is being treated as a crime, that presumably means the NTSB will not be allowed to investigate, there will be no transcript of the cockpit conversations made available to the public.
Isn't that the point of this fraudulent investigation. Its being controlled and manipulated.
Withholding evidence to a jury is a crime.
The ATC feed I saw did not have any yelling to air traffic controllers, which I presume was the ATC Tower in Amarillo Texas.
Does anyone have a link for the ATC Feed yelling at Air TRaffic controllers. Remember, ATC feeds are public records.
JFK would have had them on LIVEATC (I wasn't listening in at the time) and other airports as well.
tdowl5757
Mar 28, 12, 10:10 pm
Seat13c, any thoughts on this thread......
adamj023
Mar 28, 12, 10:20 pm
Seat13c, any thoughts on this thread......
“Osbon started trying to correlate completely unrelated numbers like radio frequencies,” the FBI said.
And the FBI said that was Schitzophrenia.
Osbon was an intellectual.
There are various articles related to correlation of ariel frequencies, but alas the FBI aren't experts in aviation.
Oh thats right, Mr. Osbon had an Aeronautical Physics degree and was an expert in his field WITH HONORS and at the top of his game with all the top honor societies.
Considering Osbon's background and education levels, he was a lot brighter than those FBI droids trying to make a case out of this.
I don't see any terroristic threat here, any signs of schitzophrenia, and the horrible things being said and lack of proof of various aspects of the FBI Case is typical BS.
I can't say it any other way. The Media doesn't go into details of the profession at all when they talk about this matter, they just use some footage and the like and turn this into some event it was not.
FBI has been known for its incompetence in investigating cases and have even lied on the evidence in various situations as well especially in matters dealing with national security. And I don't see why the FBI would even have jurisdiction in this matter as well but that is another matter.
We are very fortunate that aviation levels are a lot safer today than ever before and no one would have ever gotten hurt on any JetBlue flight. Their standards are just that high and David Barger was correct in pointing this out.
3/4 the way thru a flight and everything was going on fine, he just happens to get kick out by his peers that day.
If a crash happened and this guy was dangerous, it would have happened in the beginning of the flight where there would have been a fatal crash or he would have turned the plane in another direction. Not 3/4 the way through where everything was fine, he just gets ejected @ Amarillo Texas where I pointed out the Pantex nuclear facility already.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JBU191/history/20120327/1055Z/KJFK/KAMA/tracklog contains all the relevant data for this investigation and there is not one shred of evidence of any manipulation of the flight in that track except for a conscious decision by the other pilot to want to land the jet at Amarillo, Texas.
Had their been honest issues or an honest struggle in the cockpit, there would have been a radical change in the history data than what was displayed.
David Barger knew who he hired and pointed out he knew Mr. Olson personally and there was no sign of anything wrong. His screening credentials over at JetBlue has worked out extraordinarily well.
I honestly do NOT care about what was shown on a MEDIA video because that is NOT relevant to pressing charges.
For a crime to have been committed, the pilot would have knowingly been intent on committing a crime with the aircraft. But all the course history is public and there is not one shred of manipulation of the course of that aircraft in the whole time frame.
The truth is I never really knew about his background but I knew for a long time there are great pilots out there and from the media I learned stuff I didn't even know but it makes me respect the quality airlines all the more now.
UA Fan
Mar 28, 12, 11:02 pm
The truth is I never really knew about his background but I knew for a long time there are great pilots out there and from the media I learned stuff I didn't even know but it makes me respect the quality airlines all the more now.
Are you close friends with/related to Osbon?
mbstone
Mar 29, 12, 12:13 am
Without getting into conspiracy theories....
I'd also like to hear the audio of Osbon allegedly broadcasting over the ATC frequency and telling ATC to "quiet down." The only ATC audio that's come out is that of the co-pilot calmly requesting medical and security assistance and a vector to Amarillo.
It's very facile for this incident (and the AA FA flip-out) to be treated, at least publicly, as "health events." We can't tell you what really happened! That would violate Medical Privacy!
AAMillionaire
Mar 29, 12, 12:22 am
“Osbon started trying to correlate completely unrelated numbers like radio frequencies,” the FBI said.
And the FBI said that was Schitzophrenia.
Osbon was an intellectual.
There are various articles related to correlation of ariel frequencies, but alas the FBI aren't experts in aviation.
Oh thats right, Mr. Osbon had an Aeronautical Physics degree and was an expert in his field WITH HONORS and at the top of his game with all the top honor societies.
Considering Osbon's background and education levels, he was a lot brighter than those FBI droids trying to make a case out of this.
I don't see any terroristic threat here, any signs of schitzophrenia, and the horrible things being said and lack of proof of various aspects of the FBI Case is typical BS.
I can't say it any other way. The Media doesn't go into details of the profession at all when they talk about this matter, they just use some footage and the like and turn this into some event it was not.
FBI has been known for its incompetence in investigating cases and have even lied on the evidence in various situations as well especially in matters dealing with national security. And I don't see why the FBI would even have jurisdiction in this matter as well but that is another matter.
We are very fortunate that aviation levels are a lot safer today than ever before and no one would have ever gotten hurt on any JetBlue flight. Their standards are just that high and David Barger was correct in pointing this out.
3/4 the way thru a flight and everything was going on fine, he just happens to get kick out by his peers that day.
If a crash happened and this guy was dangerous, it would have happened in the beginning of the flight where there would have been a fatal crash or he would have turned the plane in another direction. Not 3/4 the way through where everything was fine, he just gets ejected @ Amarillo Texas where I pointed out the Pantex nuclear facility already.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JBU191/history/20120327/1055Z/KJFK/KAMA/tracklog contains all the relevant data for this investigation and there is not one shred of evidence of any manipulation of the flight in that track except for a conscious decision by the other pilot to want to land the jet at Amarillo, Texas.
Had their been honest issues or an honest struggle in the cockpit, there would have been a radical change in the history data than what was displayed.
David Barger knew who he hired and pointed out he knew Mr. Olson personally and there was no sign of anything wrong. His screening credentials over at JetBlue has worked out extraordinarily well.
I honestly do NOT care about what was shown on a MEDIA video because that is NOT relevant to pressing charges.
For a crime to have been committed, the pilot would have knowingly been intent on committing a crime with the aircraft. But all the course history is public and there is not one shred of manipulation of the course of that aircraft in the whole time frame.
The truth is I never really knew about his background but I knew for a long time there are great pilots out there and from the media I learned stuff I didn't even know but it makes me respect the quality airlines all the more now.
:rolleyes:
adamj023
Mar 29, 12, 1:02 am
Are you close friends with/related to Osbon?
Nope. I don't recall if he was ever a pilot on any of my JetBlue flights. Probably not assuming he was doing the JFK to LAS route with JBLU 191.
I only learned of him through the eyes of the media as this whole senario. But considering his flight experience with JetBlue for 12 years which included before AND after 9/11 and 18000 flight hours and considering the flightaware data track, he was not phased at all by flying nor was there any manipulation of the flight at any point in time here in question:
Such as any manuvers outside of normal operating procedures which could have endangered the lives of passengers at any time.
The whole case was played out in the eyes of the cabin from the media which is a totally different situation than being in the cockpit and actually seeing what was going on between the captain and first officer.
The media story told a totally different picture.
I really don't think this Captain will see a day in jail and I think the evidence will prove to the contrary and he will be reinstated with JetBlue. That is what I would hope for and the best outcome that could happen here.
According to the AP "Osbon started rambling about religion. He scolded air traffic controllers to quiet down, then turned off the radios altogether, and dimmed the monitors in the cockpit. He said aloud that "things just don't matter" and encouraged his co-pilot that they take a leap of faith.
"We're not going to Vegas," Osbon said."
However the flightaware data which is public as I posted already contradicts this. There was no change in path whatsoever and tracking data is constantly reported from the jet including airspeed and altitude and direction. Nothing was interfered with that could have hampered the ability of the jet to where it was to go. A conscious decision was made to land the jet @ Amarillo Texas.
Had the pilot been intent on violating the aircraft itself, you would have noticed a fluctuation in the flightaware tracking data, and it wasn't tampered with in any way shape or form from the perspective of control of the jetplane.
orlandodlplat
Mar 29, 12, 4:27 am
Isn't that the point of this fraudulent investigation. Its being controlled and manipulated.
Withholding evidence to a jury is a crime.
The ATC feed I saw did not have any yelling to air traffic controllers, which I presume was the ATC Tower in Amarillo Texas.
Does anyone have a link for the ATC Feed yelling at Air TRaffic controllers. Remember, ATC feeds are public records.
JFK would have had them on LIVEATC (I wasn't listening in at the time) and other airports as well.
I cannot fathom why it's so difficult for you to admit the captain clearly had some kind of meltdown. It doesn't have to mean he intellectually wanted to bring the plane down, but it sure sounds like a dramatic and scary shift in his mood and personality. And I, for one, would not want this guy at the controls of my flight in that state, no matter how much experience he has.
You seem to be convinced there's some huge conspiracy theory at play (and somehow have brought your hatred of the current administration into this), and you claim it's really a sort of "he said, he said" between the two pilots.
Have you ever heard of the cockpit voice recorder? Hard to imagine the FO would make this up or embellish, knowing every word was being recorded.
skylady
Mar 29, 12, 4:49 am
Why in the world would the witnesses, including flight crew lie to the FBI? What is the motive? or dare I ask?:confused:
SWCPHX
Mar 29, 12, 6:26 am
“Osbon started trying to correlate completely unrelated numbers like radio frequencies,” the FBI said.
And the FBI said that was Schitzophrenia.
Osbon was an intellectual.
There are various articles related to correlation of ariel frequencies, but alas the FBI aren't experts in aviation.
Oh thats right, Mr. Osbon had an Aeronautical Physics degree and was an expert in his field WITH HONORS and at the top of his game with all the top honor societies.
Considering Osbon's background and education levels, he was a lot brighter than those FBI droids trying to make a case out of this.
I don't see any terroristic threat here, any signs of schitzophrenia, and the horrible things being said and lack of proof of various aspects of the FBI Case is typical BS.
I can't say it any other way. The Media doesn't go into details of the profession at all when they talk about this matter, they just use some footage and the like and turn this into some event it was not.
FBI has been known for its incompetence in investigating cases and have even lied on the evidence in various situations as well especially in matters dealing with national security. And I don't see why the FBI would even have jurisdiction in this matter as well but that is another matter.
We are very fortunate that aviation levels are a lot safer today than ever before and no one would have ever gotten hurt on any JetBlue flight. Their standards are just that high and David Barger was correct in pointing this out.
3/4 the way thru a flight and everything was going on fine, he just happens to get kick out by his peers that day.
If a crash happened and this guy was dangerous, it would have happened in the beginning of the flight where there would have been a fatal crash or he would have turned the plane in another direction. Not 3/4 the way through where everything was fine, he just gets ejected @ Amarillo Texas where I pointed out the Pantex nuclear facility already.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JBU191/history/20120327/1055Z/KJFK/KAMA/tracklog contains all the relevant data for this investigation and there is not one shred of evidence of any manipulation of the flight in that track except for a conscious decision by the other pilot to want to land the jet at Amarillo, Texas.
Had their been honest issues or an honest struggle in the cockpit, there would have been a radical change in the history data than what was displayed.
David Barger knew who he hired and pointed out he knew Mr. Olson personally and there was no sign of anything wrong. His screening credentials over at JetBlue has worked out extraordinarily well.
I honestly do NOT care about what was shown on a MEDIA video because that is NOT relevant to pressing charges.
For a crime to have been committed, the pilot would have knowingly been intent on committing a crime with the aircraft. But all the course history is public and there is not one shred of manipulation of the course of that aircraft in the whole time frame.
The truth is I never really knew about his background but I knew for a long time there are great pilots out there and from the media I learned stuff I didn't even know but it makes me respect the quality airlines all the more now.
Have you ever seen the movie "A Beautiful Mind"?
Quite similar if you ask me...genius, intellectual, top of his field, etc, etc, but crazy because of a mental illness.
Yaatri
Mar 29, 12, 6:30 am
I cannot fathom why it's so difficult for you to admit the captain clearly had some kind of meltdown. It doesn't have to mean he intellectually wanted to bring the plane down, but it sure sounds like a dramatic and scary shift in his mood and personality. And I, for one, would not want this guy at the controls of my flight in that state, no matter how much experience he has.
You seem to be convinced there's some huge conspiracy theory at play (and somehow have brought your hatred of the current administration into this), and you claim it's really a sort of "he said, he said" between the two pilots.
Have you ever heard of the cockpit voice recorder? Hard to imagine the FO would make this up or embellish, knowing every word was being recorded.
It seems to me that the two pilots didn't get along, one overreacted and locked the other out. The one who was locked out over reacted and then snapped. Locking a pilot out is a drastic initiative. There appears to be no evidence that either passengers or the plane were in danger. There could be some personal hostility between the two pilots.
Eyewitness reports don;t seem to be of any help. At first, he was reported to have said the B word, ISrael and Afghanistan. Later reports claimed he uttered Israel and Iraq. The whole thing is bizarre.
lougord99
Mar 29, 12, 6:32 am
adamj023,
Wouldn't you be happier posting about this on OMNI?
Personally, I am done reading this thread. It has gone beyond ridiculous.
skylady
Mar 29, 12, 6:54 am
adamj023,
Wouldn't you be happier posting about this on OMNI?
Personally, I am done reading this thread. It has gone beyond ridiculous.
Why would you junk out now, when all of the best conspiricies are yet to come? :rolleyes:
This poor guy needs help, not criticism.
kwildnj
Mar 29, 12, 7:08 am
Why would you junk out now, when all of the best conspiricies are yet to come? :rolleyes:
This poor guy needs help, not criticism.
Who, Adam or the pilot?
skylady
Mar 29, 12, 7:21 am
Who, Adam or the pilot?
Both, it seems.
enviroian
Mar 29, 12, 8:37 am
We respond to all feedback within 7 years or after bankruptcy, whichever comes first
:D
orlandodlplat
Mar 29, 12, 8:55 am
Who, Adam or the pilot?
Here's one for you: Maybe Adam IS the pilot... would explain a lot.
NYC96
Mar 29, 12, 9:00 am
Ok, there's discussion on the internet that the Capt broke out of the plastic handcuffs onboard, several pair. I believe I read that passengers put them on and not the flight attendants. When used properly, I doubt that these devices can be broken out of by those wearing them. I wonder if the passengers simply put them on wrong???? They're not trained in their use. Interesting, to say the least.
Yaatri
Mar 29, 12, 9:02 am
After reading the FBI report, I concur that Mr Osbon had a meltdown. I cannot say with 100% certainty that no harm would have come to passengers or the aircraft.
This does make me think twice whether allowing pilots to be armed would make things safer. If we go with another logic, if allowing citizxens to be armed makes the society safer, why won;t allowing passengers to be armed make every one safer?
jj1987
Mar 29, 12, 9:20 am
After reading the FBI report, I concur that Mr Osbon had a meltdown. I cannot say with 100% certainty that no harm would have come to passengers or the aircraft.
This does make me think twice whether allowing pilots to be armed would make things safer. If we go with another logic, if allowing citizxens to be armed makes the society safer, why won;t allowing passengers to be armed make every one safer?
It's not like police go through any mental screening. Not allowing 10's of thousands to carry because of one incident seems like something only the nutjob Brady Campaign could come up with.
DeaconFlyer
Mar 29, 12, 9:29 am
When he got locked out its clear he said what he said, but the point I was making is : It was either in a joking manner OR it was done outside of free will.
The only plausible explations I see now are : Something outside the realm of what we know or political motivated prosecution or fully knowing this was a flight heading to the International Security Conference in Las Vegas designed to improve security and was actually a STAGED EVENT.
I don't see any intent and that is what the FBI is alleging here.
This pilot was way brighter than you can imagine and had loads of flying time behind him.
I would love for this pilot to be interviewed at a later date, but hopefully no outside manipulation took place.
I do not consider this a case driven by the media deserving of any indictment whatsoever.
That isn't being crazy at all. The political motivation is still at play here because to have the US DOJ with an Obama appointee prosecute this case is absolutely disgusting as far as I am concerned and there is no way under any senario I will believe otherwise.
Plenty of folks have seen unjust prosecutions.
I've always wondered why each entrance to the DOJ is guarded by three heavily armed men.
Now I know.
FWAAA
Mar 29, 12, 9:59 am
Ok, there's discussion on the internet that the Capt broke out of the plastic handcuffs onboard, several pair. I believe I read that passengers put them on and not the flight attendants. When used properly, I doubt that these devices can be broken out of by those wearing them. I wonder if the passengers simply put them on wrong???? They're not trained in their use. Interesting, to say the least.
I noticed that, too. I'm sometimes zip-tie challenged, but whenever I use them to secure cables (under the hood or behind the stereo, etc) I quickly figure out which way to assemble them.
I've seen video of LEOs at major protests and demonstrations who have a bunch of them on their belt already looped but loose so they can just slip the loop over the wrists of the arrested and pull tightly.
I've never seen the zip ties onboard but if they haven't been pre-looped and started, I can see how the good samaritans might have looped them backwards in the rush to tie up the captain. Alternatively, perhaps airlines don't have heavy-duty zip ties onboard. Apparently the posse used belts and seat belt extenders once the zip ties failed.
You want to go where?
Mar 29, 12, 10:28 am
Regarding the pilot - as people trot out terms like PTSD and meltdown, suggesting that the problem was caused by stress (which is certainly possible), there are many physical conditions and even infections which can result in sudden onset of erratic or bizarre behavior. It isn't as uncommon as people think. Fortunately, it doesn't happen very often to pilots, but it can happen to anyone, including people who are well-educated, well-trained 'normal' people with a long track record of success in their careers and shouldn't be a reflection that there was something going wrong with their life before that point.
dhuey
Mar 29, 12, 10:34 am
Fortunately, it doesn't happen very often to pilots, but it can happen to anyone...
My guess just based on the sheer numbers of pilots is that lesser versions of this same situation have happened many times, but the pilots in question were able to hold it together just enough to avoid a major incident. Then, they quietly got some help.
hat attack
Mar 29, 12, 10:45 am
FWAAA
I can see how the good samaritans might have looped them backwards in the rush to tie up the captain.
Proper use is to pre-loop, apply, then tighten. It's not rocket science, but if not trained on correct usage it's quite easy to loop them backwards which will cause them to fail when resistance is used.
FWAAA
Mar 29, 12, 10:51 am
Proper use is to pre-loop, apply, then tighten. It's not rocket science, but if not trained on correct usage it's quite easy to loop them backwards which will cause them to fail when resistance is used.
Exactly. My point is that I don't know if the onboard zip-ties have been pre-looped or whether "some assembly is required" prior to their installation. Like I said, I've seen LEOs who are carrying dozens of them, all pre-looped and ready to go. If the ones on the airplane are not pre-looped, that looks like an item for improvement.
hat attack
Mar 29, 12, 11:04 am
FWAAA
... don't know if the onboard zip-ties have been pre-looped or whether "some assembly is required" prior to their installation. If the ones on the airplane are not pre-looped, that looks like an item for improvement.
Generally they are not stored pre-looped. The problem with pre-looping for storage is that they tighten quite easily - rendering them unusable. Not that big an issue if they are likely to be used soon after looping, but for long term storage (that includes equipment checks multiple times per day) it is an issue.
cynicAAl
Mar 29, 12, 11:17 am
The political motivation is still at play here because to have the US DOJ with an Obama appointee prosecute this case is absolutely disgusting as far as I am concerned and there is no way under any senario I will believe otherwise.
well OK then...as long as you're keeping an open mind...:rolleyes:
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 29, 12, 11:34 am
what? what do you mean "no evidence"?
"Osbon talked about his church and needed to focus," Whitworth said in the affidavit. "Osbon began talking about religion, but his statements were not coherent."
The copilot grew nervous when Osbon told them that "things just don't matter" and began yelling over the plane's radio system, telling air traffic controllers to "be quiet," according to Whitworth's account in the affidavit. "The First Officer became really worried when Osbon said, ‘We need to take a leap of faith'," Whitworth said in the document. "Osbon started trying to correlate completely unrelated numbers and he talked about the sins in Las Vegas. At one point, Osbon told the (first officer), ‘We're not going to Vegas,' and began giving what was described as a sermon."
There appears to be no evidence that either passengers or the plane were in danger.
dll
Mar 29, 12, 1:37 pm
I'm really glad this turned out the way it did and nobody suffered any injuries or harm in the process.
Still, it makes me question this: what if the role had been reversed and the pilot who remained in the cockpit during his/her flying partner's bathroom break were the one who had a breakdown? If the co-pilot was able to lock the captain out of the flight deck then it must be possible to secure it from the inside.
Not sure if JetBlue has this policy, but I've seen on other carriers that pilots are not permitted to be alone on the flight deck; if one of them leaves to use the lav or something, a flight attendant (or relief pilot if there is one on board) goes in for the duration of their absence.
SA_robert
Mar 29, 12, 1:41 pm
Without commenting on this situation as such (still many more details needed), I hope it at last puts to rest the totally illogical comments found (a few times) on this thread and ad nauseam on the Security boards: the idea that security measures for pilots are somehow silly because pilots can crash the plane.
I suspect the first officer on the JetBlue flight would clear that one up in a hurry. Imagine if he (and those on the other side of the door) were dealing with an armed pilot who had smuggled a firearm on board due to a lesser security requirement for pilots! Even in a less dramatic case, a pilot can try to drive the aircraft into the ground, but the FO (and others) have a fighting chance to prevent it- not so if the pilot is armed. This seems rather obvious to me, but I see the snarky comments all the time about how silly it is to screen pilots to the same degree as passengers. This does not even address the issue of pilots carrying items unwittingly.
Another idea frequently mentioned on these boards can also be discarded- bragging about having an FBI "background check." Unless such a "check" is a full-field background investigation, it is of limited value as it is simply a record check. If one has not been arrested, placed on a watch list, or otherwise come to the attention in a serious way of law enforcement, a "background check" shows only that one has not been caught or has a profile in some data base. It should be of little comfort to anyone that a person has undergone such a check. If you think about it, the most clever and dangerous folks are those who have NOT been caught or come to someone's attention.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 29, 12, 2:35 pm
I believe this is the case for pretty much everyone, but it has been mentioned that the Captain exited the c/p to the surprise of the cabin crew.
Not sure if JetBlue has this policy, but I've seen on other carriers that pilots are not permitted to be alone on the flight deck; if one of them leaves to use the lav or something, a flight attendant (or relief pilot if there is one on board) goes in for the duration of their absence.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 29, 12, 2:38 pm
So, what is your theory regarding EgyptAir 990?
All it takes is one pilot to exit the flight deck.
Also, what are your feelings regarding ground crew bypassing security, unlike all flight crew (non ffdo)?
Without commenting on this situation as such (still many more details needed), I hope it at last puts to rest the totally illogical comments found (a few times) on this thread and ad nauseam on the Security boards: the idea that security measures for pilots are somehow silly because pilots can crash the plane.
I suspect the first officer on the JetBlue flight would clear that one up in a hurry. Imagine if he (and those on the other side of the door) were dealing with an armed pilot who had smuggled a firearm on board due to a lesser security requirement for pilots! Even in a less dramatic case, a pilot can try to drive the aircraft into the ground, but the FO (and others) have a fighting chance to prevent it- not so if the pilot is armed. This seems rather obvious to me, but I see the snarky comments all the time about how silly it is to screen pilots to the same degree as passengers. This does not even address the issue of pilots carrying items unwittingly.
Another idea frequently mentioned on these boards can also be discarded- bragging about having an FBI "background check." Unless such a "check" is a full-field background investigation, it is of limited value as it is simply a record check. If one has not been arrested, placed on a watch list, or otherwise come to the attention in a serious way of law enforcement, a "background check" shows only that one has not been caught or has a profile in some data base. It should be of little comfort to anyone that a person has undergone such a check. If you think about it, the most clever and dangerous folks are those who have NOT been caught or come to someone's attention.
mbstone
Mar 29, 12, 4:31 pm
I agree that "background checks" based on reviews of records alone produce numerous false positives as well as false negatives; IMO they are based on junk science. What scares me, and everyone else, is that Mr. Osbon likely would have passed even the most granular and intensive of personnel investigations.
SA_robert
Mar 29, 12, 5:29 pm
So, what is your theory regarding EgyptAir 990?
All it takes is one pilot to exit the flight deck.
Also, what are your feelings regarding ground crew bypassing security, unlike all flight crew (non ffdo)?
Sorry, I'd have to refresh my memory on 990, but I was involved in a lot of discussion at the time on old AOL boards. Don't forget, I didn't say a pilot could not crash the plane- obviously he/she could do that. It would just be infinitely easier to do it if the pilot were armed. Also, at the time of 990, there was no requirement for a second person in cockpit during bathroom breaks, etc. The second person is key.
No one should bypass security and that includes 90 year old grandmothers in wheelchairs. What constitutes "security" can (and should) vary based on threat assessment, but the problem of unwitting carriers of destructive devices is a real one.
BTW, I think firearms in cockpit should be secured and remained there with access granted to qualified pilots rather than have pilots carrying the weapons to and from their assigned flights. This would be very easy to do.
buckeyefanflyer
Mar 29, 12, 5:38 pm
He could have in capacitated the co-pilot and crashed the plane. They think that happened with a Silk Air 737 some years back. There were lots of plane crashes in the 1960's, do you think any other crash was a deliberate suicide act by a pilot Planes have crahsed into mountains, could have happened that way.
The tracking information of the plane and its whereabouts all thru the process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-fly_zone
Pantex nuclear facility is in Amarillo Texas and is a NO FLY ZONE.
The media story and the story people are making it to appear is a totally different picture than the plane on an operational basis perspective where information is tracked. Even the FBI tale of the story leaves out very important information and there are loads of unverifiable parts.
http://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app
Pilots of course have information available to them on these sites. Here is the information as available from the FAA's own website.
Remember Pantex is one of the few prohibited no fly zones in the USA and also an International Security conference was ongoing at this time.
Had this been a true rogue pilot, the outcome and the results inside the cockpit as tracked would have been different. Again I repeat if this was a true rogue pilot, you would have seen military jets issued before the plane got to Amarillo Texas which is a NO FLY ZONE and it would be subject to shoot down provisions which are very serious and it would have been a national security matter which would go up to the highest levels of government.
Remember 9/11 was just crashing planes into buildings. This plane was by a nuclear facility and the damage would have been catastrophic.
If you go to the video tape where he was talking about Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan and told the pilot to rev it after getting locked out of the cockpit this was around the time the plane would have been approaching OR close to Amarillo, Texas. However there appears to be no intent whatsoever crossing the line into making it seem like this pilot was about to plot to crash the plane into a nuclear facility.
I suspect we will learn more about this case AFTER a trial is conducted or charges are dropped, and hopefully the government and the airline won't be surpressing information regarding this case. But with Pantex involved and the Amarillo Texas location AND with the Media showing a chopper by the landing site, it is unclear the total picture as of now.
This was no ordinary flight like the flight attendent nonsense that happened on AA. In fact the flight was with a captain perfectly flying fine and with all trackable data all fine which actually winds up landing specifically in the region of a nuclear facility in Texas with full will at the direction of both the captain and first officer since both had controls at the time.
dinoscool3
Mar 29, 12, 6:08 pm
AMA itself is not a no fly zone, even if Pantex is.
adamj023
Mar 29, 12, 6:15 pm
AMA itself is not a no fly zone, even if Pantex is.
Couple of corrections: Meant to say the Pilot was locked out with the Sealed cockpit doors AFTER he was talking about full throttle. He knew he wasn't able to get inside and just saying that after you are locked out isn't proof or intent to do anything extraneous with the airplane itself.
There is a no fly zone around AMA airport but the airport itself is NOT a no fly zone. That is correct. I never meant to insist there was. But if you have a rogue pilot in the process and are headed towards a nuclear site, things would be different.
Mr. Barger knew this pilot personally according to him and he was there for 12 years, so he would be an excellent judge of character for the pilot. Not one person or witness thereof has come out to say anything negative about this Captain who had a lot of flying time and was well liked over at JetBlue.
sbrower
Mar 29, 12, 7:17 pm
This thread clearly demonstrates that mental illness exists even among otherwise intelligent people.
CDTraveler
Mar 29, 12, 7:18 pm
Mr. Barger knew this pilot personally according to him and he was there for 12 years, so he would be an excellent judge of character for the pilot. Not one person or witness thereof has come out to say anything negative about this Captain who had a lot of flying time and was well liked over at JetBlue.
Yeah, so what?
Not one of the things you claim would prevent a man from becoming irrational due to either physical or mental illness. Maybe last week the pilot was 100% fine, but something, either physical or mental, caused a sudden change in his thought process, rendering him incapable of making appropriate choices while in charge of an airplane. Doesn't mean that for 12 years he wasn't wonderful, but on the day that counted, the day he snapped, there was something seriously wrong in his head, and it wasn't a political conspiracy.
OPNLguy
Mar 29, 12, 7:20 pm
Let me repeat:
Please, let's not, and say we did.. :rolleyes:
You've already posed your theories, crackpot as they are, over multiple pages of this thread, and I think folks have little doubt as to what you believe. Many disagree with you and have (myself included) pointed out various realities which you seem to continue to dismiss.
Accordingly, I'd submit that rather than start another repetitive cycle of your conspiracy theories and the disagreements of others (and MODs, please take note here) I'd suggest this thread be locked. The jetBlue 191 event happened, it was dealt with at the time with the flight and its occupants landing safely, and now with the filing of charges things will now move their way through the legal system.
orlandodlplat
Mar 29, 12, 8:10 pm
Mr. Barger knew this pilot personally according to him and he was there for 12 years, so he would be an excellent judge of character for the pilot. Not one person or witness thereof has come out to say anything negative about this Captain who had a lot of flying time and was well liked over at JetBlue.
Uh, this would be until he went nuts at 34,000 feet.
In before the lock.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 29, 12, 8:22 pm
sadly, so true.
This thread clearly demonstrates that mental illness exists even among otherwise intelligent people.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 29, 12, 8:24 pm
ya think???
This thread clearly demonstrates that mental illness exists even among otherwise intelligent people.
tdowl5757
Mar 29, 12, 8:28 pm
This thread clearly demonstrates that mental illness exists even among otherwise intelligent people.
Lock it already...
SA_robert
Mar 29, 12, 8:47 pm
[QUOTE=DontCallMeShirley;18298006]So, what is your theory regarding EgyptAir 990? [/QUOTE
Before the thread is locked, I looked at some of my old posts on Egypt 990. As I thought, there was never any real doubt about what happened, just a failure by the Government of Egypt to admit that one of their pilots put the plane into the Atlantic. The evidence was conclusive. Note that he did so while alone in the cockpit. That should never happen.
It is only slightly relevant to the JetBlue and firearm issue. No matter what the situation, a bad or crazy guy with a gun is a greater threat than one without a firearm. Ask any law enforcement officer.
The amazing thing is that in the 21st century, this is even a matter of discussion on many other boards.
I fully expect, by the way, that more facts will come out about this pilot. It is almost always the case in such supposedly "surprise" incidents, that the conduct was foreshadowed in some way. Surprises do happen, but not as often as thought. It's a little like listening to the comments of parents when someone snaps- the child was always wonderful, kind to neighbors, etc. That is rarely the whole story.
mbstone
Mar 29, 12, 9:53 pm
Oppose closing the thread; at the least there should be a continuing thread in Practical Travel Safety Issues. There's so much more to the story that's yet to come out, for example the CVR audio, and the eventual outcome of the criminal case against Capt. Osbon. And the story has other legs: The first EgyptAir-type incident in the US. The first mutiny on a US airliner.
Use your 'ignore' settings if you must.
sbrower
Mar 29, 12, 9:58 pm
The public requests for the thread to be locked are a violation of the TOS which prohibits public discussion of moderation decisions.
N830MH
Mar 29, 12, 10:13 pm
Most impressive! That was very nice letter from CEO Dave Barger. He's appreciate it for the helps. I'm sure they will have to get mental screening for all Employees. If they doesn't have any mental problem. They have go to see physiological or physitratic. He & She will have to take psychiatric evaluation for 72 hours. They have to get medication or treatment. They have to stay on medication. If they doesn't take the medication. They have to obey the rules. They have followed the flight crew instruction. They have listen to the flight crew, supervisor, gate agent, manager, Human Resources and etc.
Bobster
Mar 29, 12, 10:23 pm
There was some speculative talk on pprune about the possibilities of Ambien and/or dietary supplements for weight reduction. And these rumors are starting to make their way into the news media.
(Love the news media. They can also say "sources speculate" and it's not a lie. It's journalism. :eek: )
The FBI has the CVR. I'm not expecting to see a public release of this.
Just wild guessing, but the captain could accept some kind of plea deal to keep the transcripts from every getting released in a trial and we'll never know what happened. He'd perhaps get probation, whatever treatment he needs, and maybe go back to flying eventually.
dhuey
Mar 29, 12, 10:49 pm
If you go to the video tape where he was talking about Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan and told the pilot to rev it after getting locked out of the cockpit this was around the time the plane would have been approaching OR close to Amarillo, Texas.
And really, what could possibly be alarming about someone screaming about Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan while pounding on the cockpit door? Those are completely relevant things for a pilot to scream about at cruising altitude, within earshot of passengers.
adamj023
Mar 29, 12, 10:51 pm
There was some speculative talk on pprune about the possibilities of Ambien and/or dietary supplements for weight reduction. And these rumors are starting to make their way into the new media.
(Love the news media. They can also say "sources speculate" and it's not a lie. It's journalism. :eek: )
The FBI has the CVR. I'm not expecting to see a public release of this.
Just wild guessing, but the captain could accept some kind of plea deal to keep the transcripts from every getting released in a trial and we'll never know what happened. He'd perhaps get probation, whatever treatment he needs, and maybe go back to flying eventually.
The evidence of the flight tracking information is justification already for me that there was no manipulation of the plane in question and there is no basis for FBI charges in this case. That information was constantly relayed back to the plane and to the tracking towers and was not manipulated by either pilot where one tried to manipulate flight controls in any way shape or form, which did indeed happen on EgyptAir 990 and on other flights before.
At no time with the captain in the cockpit was anything altered that could have interfered with flying the aircraft normally. Let me repeat that: The evidence fully shows that the plane was flying with absolutely no conflict between the Captain or the First Officer when inside that cockpit over controls of the airplane that affected operational control, including the joystick considering the A320 is fly by wire, or other navigational aides and the whole array of control systems on the jet that would be necessary to fly or manipulate the plane into another direction.
There is no basis for any criminal suit against this individual. Even if he did shut down the radios or dim the controls, these are absolutely not critical nor necessary for operation of the flight. Dimming isn't actually shutting off a device. It is just like dimming a rear visor on the car when there is too much sun or an electronic device by getting glare out of the way.
The media shows a totally different picture than what happened inside the actual cockpit area and the comments on here are actually mind boggling and seem to be intent on what you saw through the MEDIA's EYES inside the fuselage or the main area of the airplane where passengers were.
Captain Sullenberger who knows the familiarity with the A320 cockpit inside and out and has Air Force experience would have a good insider perspective on this who was actually on CBS talking about the incident. However, he was very quiet on the details even though while he was in Vancouver Canada at the time turning this situation into one where he could actually improve air transportation even further and I give him credit. However he did not take into detail the actions of the Captain here nor has anyone actually understanding the full details of what had happened.
When Sullenberger was in the cockpit with Jeff Skiles the logs were here:
As you can clearly see the tracking history eminating from the Airbus plane he was on. That data does NOT lie as to operational control of an airplane.
If there was a disconnect between pilot and copilot and a danger to passengers, it would manifest itself in that log with a change of speed, direction and/or altitude. There is absolutely no way to avoid that.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of any struggle between operational control of one crew member going oneway and the other, another way.
The full intent of this captain along with the first officer was to have the plane landed at Amarillo, Texas airport. That is clearly what the evidence shows even though the media shows a totally different picture.
That is why this story does not make sense and what no one has convincingly explained away and makes the whole FBI report nonsensical.
I keep hearing attacks against me but I keep looking for a reasonable and sane judgement actually showing factual basis against my premise.
AirShuttle6162
Mar 29, 12, 11:12 pm
Even if he did shut down the radios or dim the controls, these are absolutely not critical nor necessary for operation of the flight.
I dont know about you, but if im in Class A airspace or IFR wx conditions I sure as heck want functioning radios/navcom's.
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 29, 12, 11:24 pm
But does it really matter? Planes are loaded every day, all day long, yet the crew still loads it and walks away. Does that makes sense to anyone?
BTW, I think firearms in cockpit should be secured and remained there with access granted to qualified pilots rather than have pilots carrying the weapons to and from their assigned flights.
adamj023
Mar 29, 12, 11:38 pm
I dont know about you, but if im in Class A airspace or IFR wx conditions I sure as heck want functioning radios/navcom's.
http://tinyurl.com/czoxesa is approximately what the radio would have looked like in the off position. Website I took it from said it was a close approximation to the A320 radio. Though I am sure there are real A320 radio pics out and and in fact in Flight simulator software it would allow you to get full detail of the cockpit including full access to controls.
Question I have though: At what point in time was the radio actually shut off? Was this around Amarillo, Texas?
The plane stayed at Amarillo Texas and there was a ferry plane so obviously they have the blackboxes.
Did anyone catch the n-number on the jet of JBLU 191 at the time? Supposedly from what I heard it was one of the newer A320s in the fleet.
adamj023
Mar 30, 12, 1:01 am
http://tinyurl.com/czoxesa is approximately what the radio would have looked like in the off position. Website I took it from said it was a close approximation to the A320 radio. Though I am sure there are real A320 radio pics out and and in fact in Flight simulator software it would allow you to get full detail of the cockpit including full access to controls.
Question I have though: At what point in time was the radio actually shut off? Was this around Amarillo, Texas?
The plane stayed at Amarillo Texas and there was a ferry plane so obviously they have the blackboxes.
Did anyone catch the n-number on the jet of JBLU 191 at the time? Supposedly from what I heard it was one of the newer A320s in the fleet.
http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5708381&nseq=29 is the exact cockpit of this flight taken in 2006)
When the plane came in their was an apache chopper shown in the photo next to the airplane.
What is interesting is that Sullenberger to Bloomberg news said that he believes that Unionization would have let to better procedures. JetBlue has been non unionized for years and this crew was outstanding even this time getting the plane down even no matter what you think of other senarios.
Nonunion and union alike have a right to compete in the marketplace but JetBlue has never seen 1 hull loss and I adamently disagree with Sullenberger on this point that Unionization is better.
I like him as a pilot and as a person but I disliked how he tried to make it seem like union labor is better which I disagree with him based on what I have seen inside the markets.
However I do agree that there is a place for union and non unionized labor to compete by free market forces, but unionization shouldn't be forced and right to work should be the policy.
He was saying how the abrigation of unionization was bringing down safety and I totally disagree.
http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5708381&nseq=29 is the exact cockpit of this flight taken in 2006)
When the plane came in their was an apache chopper shown in the photo next to the airplane.
What is interesting is that Sullenberger to Bloomberg news said that he believes that Unionization would have let to better procedures. JetBlue has been non unionized for years and this crew was outstanding even this time getting the plane down even no matter what you think of other senarios.
Nonunion and union alike have a right to compete in the marketplace but JetBlue has never seen 1 hull loss and I adamently disagree with Sullenberger on this point that Unionization is better.
I like him as a pilot and as a person but I disliked how he tried to make it seem like union labor is better which I disagree with him based on what I have seen inside the markets.
However I do agree that there is a place for union and non unionized labor to compete by free market forces, but unionization shouldn't be forced and right to work should be the policy.
He was saying how the abrigation of unionization was bringing down safety and I totally disagree.
Good grief, man, now you're replying to your own posts. Let it go...
http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5708381&nseq=29 is the exact cockpit of this flight taken in 2006)
When the plane came in their was an apache chopper shown in the photo next to the airplane.
What is interesting is that Sullenberger to Bloomberg news said that he believes that Unionization would have let to better procedures. JetBlue has been non unionized for years and this crew was outstanding even this time getting the plane down even no matter what you think of other senarios.
Nonunion and union alike have a right to compete in the marketplace but JetBlue has never seen 1 hull loss and I adamently disagree with Sullenberger on this point that Unionization is better.
I like him as a pilot and as a person but I disliked how he tried to make it seem like union labor is better which I disagree with him based on what I have seen inside the markets.
However I do agree that there is a place for union and non unionized labor to compete by free market forces, but unionization shouldn't be forced and right to work should be the policy.
He was saying how the abrigation of unionization was bringing down safety and I totally disagree.
Actually N624JB was the replacement aircraft flown in from LGB. Original aircraft was N796JB
LegalTender
Mar 30, 12, 6:40 am
Are cockpit crews still permitted firearms on the flight deck?
jj1987
Mar 30, 12, 7:13 am
Are cockpit crews still permitted firearms on the flight deck?
Yes, but not all.
http://www.tsa.gov/lawenforcement/programs/ffdo.shtm
mbstone
Mar 30, 12, 7:44 am
Somebody owes the flying public an explanation of what happened, and what measures are being taken to prevent a recurrence.
My prediction is they will tell flight crews not to eat or drink anything preflight that didn't come from a sealed container, or from home. No more Starbucks, fountain drinks, or hotel breakfast buffets.
What security changes do you expect?
OPNLguy
Mar 30, 12, 8:10 am
What security changes do you expect?
Irrespective of whatever changes they do or don't make, is it appropriate to openly discuss them in a public forum? Just asking/saying...
kerflumexed
Mar 30, 12, 11:44 am
He was a distributor for this stuff.. (http://ozosbon.myvi.net/)
And there have been some statements that he was taking a lot of these products over the last few weeks and not eating any "real" food. There was also some talking head (who seemed rational) that was speculating that it was a chemical cause that caused his behavior.
Some of these multilevel marketing schemes put a lot of pressure on ya to make your numbers and many will buy product for themselves just to retain their current level in the pyramid. Given that this pilot was a check airman and an instructor in their leadership (CRM) program and well respected, I could speculate that this crap he was putting into his body finally tripped a key circuit breaker.
I do hope he gets his job back and that Barger and Barger go to bat for him. I can recall one incident in the early 90's where a pilot had been to a crawfish and beer event in Houston and got on the airplane in uniform (as a pax) and wasted and barfed over a bunch of passengers and all the senior managers wanted to fire this guy. The airline CEO took a more reasoned approach and they got him into rehab and then back on the line and he has been a model crewmember and very active in the alcohol intervention program. The FAA has been supportive of rehabilitation depending on the circumstances.
However, the TSA has been beating the tom-toms to dismantle the FFDO program so this event will likely give them some more ammo. I know of one captain that when she found out that the first officer was an FFDO, she would demand to take possession of the bullets while they were flying together.
Thanks to the F/O for a job well done, and I truly wish the captain a speedy recovery.
makfan
Mar 30, 12, 12:47 pm
First, I hope that Captain Osbon makes a full recovery from whatever issues he is facing.
Second, this is another example of how the passengers and crew are the real security. Kudos to everyone, in uniform and out, for doing what was unfortunately necessary to secure a safe landing for the aircraft.
dhuey
Mar 30, 12, 1:10 pm
I do hope he gets his job back and that Barger and Barger go to bat for him.
I hope he can get some job, but don't you think there would be a minor panic in the cabin each time he would turn on the PA and say, "Good morning, folks, this is Captain Osbon...."
Brigri
Mar 30, 12, 2:23 pm
N796JB is their newest A320, just put into service last week.
kerflumexed
Mar 30, 12, 2:31 pm
The pilots are not required to identify themselves by name or notoriety. You may recall that Lyle the NWA captain that flew drunk from Fargo to MSP and served time in the big house eventually got his tickets back and retired as a NWA 747 captain. Nightline did a segment on him as an exemplar of rehabilitation.
Here are some welcome PA's that you will not hear but reflect reality.
This is my first flight since:
Completing substance abuse rehab
Recovering from cardiac surgery and being cleared by FAA medical
Completing retraining following an extended medical leave
Being fired by the company for violating SOP and then reinstated by an arbitrator
Completing training as a new hire and this is my first real flight with pax
Becoming a captain and following training my first flight is with real people (supervised by a check airman)
I am a management pilot and I only fly enough to maintain currency, which isn't much
I was the the pilot on a well publicized accident that resulted in a hull loss and this is my first flight since that event.
Being on extended military leave and have just completed requal.
This is my first flight as a captain since I buried my Dad.
It is good that all commercial aircraft are crew served airplanes and not single pilot. And the system is remarkably safe and resilient. I wish operating rooms were the same.
dhuey
Mar 30, 12, 3:15 pm
Here are some welcome PA's that you will not hear but reflect reality.
This is my first flight since:
Completing substance abuse rehab
Recovering from cardiac surgery and being cleared by FAA medical
Completing retraining following an extended medical leave
Being fired by the company for violating SOP and then reinstated by an arbitrator
Completing training as a new hire and this is my first real flight with pax
Becoming a captain and following training my first flight is with real people (supervised by a check airman)
I am a management pilot and I only fly enough to maintain currency, which isn't much
I was the the pilot on a well publicized accident that resulted in a hull loss and this is my first flight since that event.
Being on extended military leave and have just completed requal.
This is my first flight as a captain since I buried my Dad.
Osbon presents a far more worrisome case than all of the above. In your examples, the concern is potential pilot error/incapacity. With Osbon, you have someone who (reportedly) got so despondent, paranoid and out of touch with reality that he might have deliberately tried to fly the plane straight into the ground and resist the co-pilot's efforts to stop him.
mbstone
Mar 30, 12, 6:38 pm
Irrespective of whatever changes they do or don't make, is it appropriate to openly discuss them in a public forum? Just asking/saying...
That'll be the next security measure, prohibiting public discussion of security measures. Is that a road you really want to go down? No joking, and no talking about the security process either? I'm sure there are 5 votes on the Supreme Court for that.
Bruce Schneier, the security blogger, believes, as I do, that public discussion of security threats and countermeasures helps make travelers more secure, not less. Schneier sponsors an Annual Movie Plot Threat contest (http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/04/fifth_annual_mo.html) in which contestants are invited to imagine novel methods by which Real Terrorists could endanger passenger aircraft. Certainly nobody is talking about silencing Hollywood movie producers. And it's not like the TSA is trying to muzzle Schneier, for example by persuading the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform not to let him testify. Oh wait, they did that (http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/03/congressional_t.html).
Last I looked I didn't have a contract with the government not to discuss aviation security. For the right price maybe they could get me to sign one.
If I can keep the DHS' $100K blog-readers (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/16/dhs-monitoring-of-social-media_n_1282494.html) away from the doughnuts just for one day I'll have performed a public service.
adamj023
Mar 30, 12, 6:43 pm
One positive note out of all this:
JetBlue 191 is selling extremely well after this incident.
AS MHT
Mar 31, 12, 9:24 am
Still yet to hear any trip reports from pax who were able to complete the 72oz steak challenge during their layover?
dhuey
Mar 31, 12, 11:28 am
One positive note out of all this:
JetBlue 191 is selling extremely well after this incident.
Another positive:
You've have an opportunity to let your imagination run wild. Really wild.
You want to go where?
Mar 31, 12, 12:22 pm
Osbon presents a far more worrisome case than all of the above. In your examples, the concern is potential pilot error/incapacity. With Osbon, you have someone who (reportedly) got so despondent, paranoid and out of touch with reality that he might have deliberately tried to fly the plane straight into the ground and resist the co-pilot's efforts to stop him.
I am not sure that this is any worse than some of the cases you have mentioned above, depending on the source of his illness. If it was caused by a chemical imbalance due to diet, or an infection like meningitis, the problem is easily treatable - far more easily than substance abuse. If it was caused by PTSD, extreme depression, or a long-term stress disorder, I would be more concerned.
dhuey
Mar 31, 12, 12:48 pm
I am not sure that this is any worse than some of the cases you have mentioned above, depending on the source of his illness. If it was caused by a chemical imbalance due to diet, or an infection like meningitis, the problem is easily treatable - far more easily than substance abuse. If it was caused by PTSD, extreme depression, or a long-term stress disorder, I would be more concerned.
What I mean is that while error/incapacity can be very serious, there is at least another pilot there with the potential to step in and notice the problem and correct it. In Osbon's case we have all of those risks, plus it appears that he was hell-bent on interfering with the co-pilot's efforts to land promptly.
FWAAA
Mar 31, 12, 12:49 pm
He was a distributor for this stuff.. (http://ozosbon.myvi.net/)
And there have been some statements that he was taking a lot of these products over the last few weeks and not eating any "real" food. There was also some talking head (who seemed rational) that was speculating that it was a chemical cause that caused his behavior.
That is sad. Capt Osbon makes roughly $150k per year and yet he spent money on a pyramid scheme? That alone tells me quite a bit about him, and none of it is favorable.
I hope he's able to get the help he needs, and I hope he's amenable to being helped.
adamj023
Mar 31, 12, 1:26 pm
Another positive:
You've have an opportunity to let your imagination run wild. Really wild.
Absolutely not.
The Captain has quality personal references, he even trained the first officer and had a lot of seniority.
Not one person, NOT 1 person here was in the COCKPIT at the time of the incident. I repeat, not 1 person here was in the COCKPIT at the time of the incident. Everything after the COCKPIT DOOR OPENED is all hearsay and was passengers operating in regards to commands issued by the crew and First Officer.
Everything else in the case is all extraneous information. The information from the plane is clear:
Captain was in full control of the airplane up to a takeover of controls.
10:49AM 36.1311 -101.7008 264° West 413 475 34,000 Level Albuquerque Center
10:50AM 36.1178 -101.8611 259° West 422 486 34,000 Level Albuquerque Center
10:51AM 36.0967 -101.9964 260° West 417 480 34,000 -1,200 Level Albuquerque Center
10:52AM 36.0778 -102.1339 263° West 408 470 31,600 -2,580 Descending Albuquerque Center
10:53AM 36.0647 -102.2656 261° West 408 470 28,900 -3,300 Descending Albuquerque Center
10:54AM 36.0472 -102.3978 225° Southwest 408 470 25,100 -3,720 Descending Albuquerque Center
These are the RELEVANT DATA TRACKS issued to Albuquerque Center in regards to the airplane. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OUT OF THE ORDINARY IN THIS DATASET EXCEPT FOR A CONSCIOUS DECISION TO LAND AT AMARILLO TEXAS BY THE PILOTS.
Let me repeat that, what the passengers saw in the plane after the pilot used the bathroom and got LOCKED OUT was a TOTALLY DIFFERENT PICTURE AND SENARIO than what was going on inside the COCKPIT ITSELF.
We know this precisely because of the Albuquerque Center data as I just posted. Again nothing can dispute this data.
In the normal case of a continued flight the data would have been this, but obviously the headings would not be exactly the same, and never are between two continuous flights due to differences in other airplane traffic, weather differences, and differences in flight paths and so on:
10:33AM 37.1486 -102.4914 266° West 427 491 34,000 Level Albuquerque Center
10:34AM 37.1414 -102.6272 263° West 434 499 34,000 Level Albuquerque Center
10:35AM 37.1267 -102.7844 263° West 424 488 34,000 Level Albuquerque Center
10:36AM 37.1114 -102.9314 263° West 424 488 34,000 Level Albuquerque Center
10:37AM 37.0994 -103.0594 264° West 424 488 34,000 Level Albuquerque Center
10:38AM 37.0878 -103.2086 263° West 430 495 34,000 Level Albuquerque Center
10:40AM 37.0575 -103.4986 263° West 444 511 34,000 Level Denver Center
So A: How was the Captain disconnected from the ability to flying the plane and B: How did the Captain when actually in the cockpit flying the plane show physical behavior that was not appropriate to flying the airplane, not just a hearsay based argument of he said vs he said of Captain vs First Officer and a declaration of a medical emergency.
Post 9/11 a lot of new security procedures have gone into play and the tracking data alone that I posted is a small piece of the puzzle. There are also classified bits of information due to national security reasons and DHS for instance has classified information and has expanded its centers over the years. In photos they clearly show the monitors in those photos as BLOCKED out and classified.
People here who are ranting on this incident and have attacked me, have not disputed the fundamental fact:
The tracking data as reported with all the tracking centers from NY to Albequerqe Center does NOT, I repeat, does NOT show any struggle with the first officer and the captain for OPERATIONAL CONTROL OF THE AIRPLANE.
In regards to pressing a button haphazardly argument: If a button was pressed haphzardly, then obviously there would be data showing on the systems information since all information is logged and as of now, not one shred of evidence has been shown to be manipulated.
FBI charged the Captain WITHOUT EVEN HAVING the evidence from these blackboxes as well. A charge before you see the blackbox is absolutely ludicruous in itself and was a violation of the Captain's constitutional rights as a citizen. You can NOT charge an individual before necessary evidence is out which proves that there could be intent to commit a crime, ie the burden needed for a grand jury to indict the Captain.
Obviously the Captain has now hired a lawyer and there is 30 days to send this case to a grand jury but I don't see in any way shape or form a Grand Jury taking on this matter at this point in time with what is known and going further with a trial.
That is why the people arguing against me are totally wrong and biased seeing this case through the eyes of some VIDEOS released by the media rather than actually have been in the COCKPIT with the Captain. That picture is totally different, plus the people on here don't realize that any operational control of directional or altitutude controls would be shown directly to the tracking center feed.
If a Captain for instance was pressing buttons haphazardly, there would have things shown in that tracking center feed such as altitude changes, directional changes and speed changes and so forth.
For instance shutting down an engine or engine controls would affect speed. Affecting things like the wing flaps would affect directional controls and/or altitude.
If there is more data released then fine but the overzealous nature of the FBI case before the data was even investigated and nothing TO DATE has any dispute that the Captain couldn't fly the plane or was incapacitated in any way.
I am still waiting for the shred of evidence to actually change the direction of this case, but I don't see it.
kwildnj
Mar 31, 12, 1:34 pm
Ah, the ignore list. My new favorite feature.
This co-pilot just kicked the pilot of Conspiracy Air 023 out of the cockpit. I had enough. :cool:
adamj023
Mar 31, 12, 1:42 pm
Ah, the ignore list. My new favorite feature.
This co-pilot just kicked the pilot of Conspiracy Air 023 out of the cockpit. I had enough. :cool:
There is nothing about conspiracies there at all if you notice. DATA CENTER INFORMATION as posted is factual coming from FLIGHTAWARE Data. It has been accurate to date in flight information for many many flights including some infamous flights as well as ordinary routine ones.
Also name me ONE EYE WITNESS or camera feed which showed a course change of the aircraft. The tracking data doesn't have it and neither would someone observing the plane in the sky. No one in the operation of the flight path can say with anything other than the fact that the pilot just changed controls with the co-pilot, not that anything was going to happen like a plane crash or behavior that was hazerdous to anyone on board.
Not 1. Airplanes don't fly alone in the sky as well. So name me one pilot who saw irratic behavior who was close to JetBlue at the time. At that time period there would have been a lot of traffic in the area from other airplanes close to the altitude of JetBlue at the time.
JetBlue on its OWN processed the request to issue a "medical emergency" at Amarillo Texas coming from the co-pilot.
dhuey
Mar 31, 12, 2:11 pm
Also name me ONE EYE WITNESS or camera feed which showed a course change of the aircraft.
How do the multiple eyewitness accounts of the pilot's behavior after being locked out of the cockpit square with what you imagine might have happened? All liars? Are they all confused? Or are you going to go with the time-honored tactic of finding inconsequential differences between the many accounts and concluding that those differences show how all of the passengers' observations of the pilot must be discarded?
adamj023
Mar 31, 12, 2:48 pm
How do the multiple eyewitness accounts of the pilot's behavior after being locked out of the cockpit square with what you imagine might have happened? All liars? Are they all confused? Or are you going to go with the time-honored tactic of finding inconsequential differences between the many accounts and concluding that those differences show how all of the passengers' observations of the pilot must be discarded?
If this was a Captain intent on killing passengers and there was a struggle onboard and direct evidence, I would be in favor of the Captain getting jail.
We have seen so many notorious accidents involving various forms of transportation which could have been prevented.
But as of what is known right now and with the FACTS Ive seen which by the way are publically available, you just have to make an attempt to look at those totally seperately from the media story and videos is there is no evidence of any wrongdoing by the Captain.
Did the media ever disclose ATC feeds from OTHER TOWERS than the last one which declared a medical emergency.
Did the media ever disclose the Flightaware tracking data or show any eyewitnesses outside of the aircraft including other pilots and whatnot show the airplane was off course or there was a problem going on.
Flight is in motion, crew is working, captain and first officer are working. Ok understand this.
Flight is going fine for 3/4 thru the flight. Ok. Then the pilot has to use the bathroom. Thing is the crew + FO turn AGAINST THIS PILOT at that moment in time and some unusual things are said when he was in the main cabin area and the like but with full knowledge he was locked out of the cabin.
As being a passenger myself on JetBlue, and other airlines, I have seen a differential between some pilots leaving the cockpit doors closed the whole flight while on other flights they have been left open during the flight.
I wasn't on that flight but the facts here are incomplete and would require interviewing both First Officer, Crew members, getting the voice recorders, and putting together a complete picture of what was going on in addition to what has been told in the media and that part is not problematic.
As of now, I don't see any criminal wrongdoing.
I can't picture a senario where he was suicidal because of something going on or was being evaluated by someone because of issues ongoing that would have affected his mental state, or that this guy had plans of killing himself and others that day.
The investigation isn't over yet but nothing is conclusive right now where this is a criminal event with anything that is known. That tide while anything is possible, has not been turned yet and the odds as of this very moment seem against it.
adamj023
Mar 31, 12, 3:42 pm
Original aircraft was N796JB. Considering this was a new A320 just delivered and considering that ViaSat was being phased in later with test flights to go out, one wonders if this bird was scheduled or had ViaSat equipment on board.
In all the reports it has been hard to get actual accurate information. If Viasat equipment was being tested or was onboard and considering this was one of the best most experienced pilots and considering the fact of the security conference in Las Vegas, let alone the fact that the data doesn't point to criminal intent, and there is something more that was going on as David Barger said, but there really seems to be something bigger than being disclosed on this.
Also fact of the matter: http://www.flightradar24.com/633 is in use right now and is trackable as you all can see which is N796JB
dhuey
Mar 31, 12, 3:56 pm
But as of what is known right now and with the FACTS Ive seen which by the way are publically available, you just have to make an attempt to look at those totally seperately from the media story and videos is there is no evidence of any wrongdoing by the Captain.
If it you were convinced that in the presence of the passengers, the captain was ranting on about al Qaeda, Iraq and Iran, would that lead you to believe that something had gone badly wrong in the captain's mind?
OPNLguy
Mar 31, 12, 3:59 pm
How do the multiple eyewitness accounts of the pilot's behavior after being locked out of the cockpit square with what you imagine might have happened? All liars? Are they all confused? Or are you going to go with the time-honored tactic of finding inconsequential differences between the many accounts and concluding that those differences show how all of the passengers' observations of the pilot must be discarded?
It clearly appears that he's indeed been going with that time-honored tactic, as well as resorting to citing, copying, and pasting large quantities of irrelevant and out-of-context information thrown in, and on subjects that he knows nothing about and/or is just plain wrong on the facts. (The A320 occasional headwind issue being just one example). Point out an error in his info, and here comes another few paragraphs of nonsensical rantings.
OPERATIONAL CONTROL? Within an airline, that term has a specific meaning and function, and it has nothing to do with a pilot's hands on an aircraft's controls. DATA CENTER INFORMATION? An airline's data center is a centralized location where all the airline's internal reservations and other IT support comes from. The guy throws out these terms like buzzwords, and he knows not of what he speaks.
The only thing that would appear to appease this guy was if the captain had announced to all aboard that "Simon says I'm going to do X, Y, and Z specific bad things to the aircraft" which he, of course didn't do. Those would have been concrete indications for the poster in question, and he appears intellectually incapable of understanding the abstract issues and points involved, i.e. the F/O observed an increasing level of non-normal behavior, the severity of which was to the point where the F/O developed legitimate concerns as to how far the captain would actually go. Not desiring to find out, the F/O did what he did, and their safe landing at Amarillo (the selection of which was due to it being "The nearest suitable airport in point-of-time, and NOT because the Pantex plant was nearby) absolutely validates the F/O's previous assessments and decisions. Any landing you can walk away from...
The poster can promote whatever crackpot conspiracy therory he wants to (_____fill-in name of dastardly villain here_______), but more and more, his posts read like a ridiculous conclusion that is desparately in search of supporting facts. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with, well, you know.
It's been said that "Every absurdity has a champion to defend it" and I think that's exactly what he's doing. Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental.
adamj023
Mar 31, 12, 4:16 pm
If it you were convinced that in the presence of the passengers, the captain was ranting on about al Qaeda, Iraq and Iran, would that lead you to believe that something had gone badly wrong in the captain's mind?
Captain was locked out of the cockpit BEFORE that had happened. Not AFTER.
dhuey
Mar 31, 12, 4:17 pm
It clearly appears that he's indeed been going with that time-honored tactic....
Actually, he didn't really address my question about the what multiple passengers said about the captain's conduct. I'm convinced that adamj023 isn't just clowning around, and I'm curious to see how he deals with those passengers' descriptions of what they witnessed the captain say and do.
dodger 1k
Mar 31, 12, 4:20 pm
Whatever happened, safety of flight is always paramount, so I am glad the plane landed safely. Clearly the aircraft needed to be on the ground with the crew situation.
The Captain is innocent until proven otherwise. Perhaps there are mitigating factors, perhaps not. We'll see what comes of the various investigations.
But in the meantime, what is the deal with JetBlue? Unruly families getting tossed and going on the Today Show, flight attendants going berserk, now this. Jeez!
dhuey
Mar 31, 12, 4:20 pm
Captain was locked out of the cockpit BEFORE that had happened. Not AFTER.
Okay, so after he's locked out, he rants on about al Qaeda, Iran and Iraq right in front of the passengers. You don't see anything crazy about doing that?
adamj023
Mar 31, 12, 4:22 pm
Actually, he didn't really address my question about the what multiple passengers said about the captain's conduct. I'm convinced that adamj023 isn't just clowning around, and I'm curious to see how he deals with those passengers' descriptions of what they witnessed the captain say and do.
Is the grand jury that has 30 days to decide to charge the Captain clowning around?
No.
So the story either dies here or something extremely sinister was indeed planned that day but the latter doesn't seem to be a plausible explanation based on all the evidence known to date.
Remember JBLU 191 was just one flight of many.
As to the "Okay, so after he's locked out, he rants on about al Qaeda, Iran and Iraq right in front of the passengers. You don't see anything crazy about doing that?"
AFTER HE IS LOCKED OUT. Thats the whole key to the equation is the lockout.
The other part? No, could have been planned ahead (IE part of a TEST DRILL to gauge response in a situation if captain and first officer differed), or he was clowning around knowing full well the other pilots were going to take over the airplane and he was intent at getting the pilots to land him in Amarillo Texas. There are a lot of ways to read the story and the situation as possibilities, but I definitely do NOT see a sign of a mental breakdown there or any sort of mental illness as reported just a lot of interpretive issues which are not hard evidence.
OPNLguy
Mar 31, 12, 4:23 pm
Actually, he didn't really address my question about the what multiple passengers said about the captain's conduct. I'm convinced that adamj023 isn't just clowning around, and I'm curious to see how he deals with those passengers' descriptions of what they witnessed the captain say and do.
More tap-dancing with more irrelevant info posted, I'd expect, but good luck with getting a direct answer.. ;)
dhuey
Mar 31, 12, 4:28 pm
More tap-dancing with more irrelevant info posted, I'd expect, but good luck with getting a getting a drect answer.. ;)
I think he'll answer it. I look forward to hearing about how a pilot ranting on to passengers about al Qaeda, Iran and Iraq is not an indication that's he's gone nuts. So the pilot likes to talk about world events with passengers, and he does that with passion -- what's the problem?
adamj023
Mar 31, 12, 4:41 pm
I think he'll answer it. I look forward to hearing about how a pilot ranting on to passengers about al Qaeda, Iran and Iraq is not an indication that's he's gone nuts. So the pilot likes to talk about world events with passengers, and he does that with passion -- what's the problem?
Done here but the end result of this case will get finalized and obviously the news media won't bring that part up as the big headline but instead the sensationalism part which the media brought up.
Firm is in full control with 107 flights in the air right now (which varies due to takeoff and landings)
Transparency and all the amazing tools which have been made available for those with an internet connection lets you see the whole industry realtime running better than ever.
dhuey
Mar 31, 12, 4:45 pm
Done here but the end result of this case will get finalized and obviously the news media won't bring that part up as the big headline but instead the sensationalism part which the media brought up.
Well, OPNLguy, you were right and I was wrong. He has no answer for how a pilot ranting on to passengers about al Quada, Iran and Iraq is not an indication of craziness. I thought he'd at least give it a shot.
OPNLguy
Mar 31, 12, 6:37 pm
Well, OPNLguy, you were right and I was wrong. He has no answer for how a pilot ranting on to passengers about al Quada, Iran and Iraq is not an indication of craziness. I thought he'd at least give it a shot.
Yep. The End.
SWCPHX
Mar 31, 12, 6:50 pm
When the plane came in their was an apache chopper shown in the photo next to the airplane.
OMG, are you talking about this photo?
http://jalopnik.com/5896856/jetblue-191-passenger-says-pilot-screamed-about-iran-and-iraq
That's an AH-1 Super Cobra, not an Apache, and it's clearly tied down to the ramp!
What's your point?
DontCallMeShirley
Mar 31, 12, 6:53 pm
and he was locked out JUST AFTER he was ranting about "taking a leap of faith" and that "they were NOT going to Vegas".
It must be fun being you.
Captain was locked out of the cockpit BEFORE that had happened. Not AFTER.
DrewBr
Mar 31, 12, 9:04 pm
Long, looong time, lurker. First time poster. Will someone please tell me where the ignore button is. I've read I can click an icon and never again see a member's post, well at least in this thread is my assumption. Is this correct? Will someone please assist. I registered thinking an ignore icon would show up? I only read the boards. Not familiar with the settings and such.
How can I set ignore poster's posts?
Yes I'm a newbie, please help. BTW you guys are great. I've learned a lot, unfortunately some info I didn't need to know.:eek:
dinoscool3
Mar 31, 12, 9:08 pm
Long, looong time, lurker. First time poster. Will someone please tell me where the ignore button is. I've read I can click an icon and never again see a member's post, well at least in this thread is my assumption. Is this correct? Will someone please assist. I registered thinking an ignore icon would show up? I only read the boards. Not familiar with the settings and such.
How can I set ignore poster's posts?
Yes I'm a newbie, please help. BTW you guys are great. I've learned a lot, unfortunately some info I didn't need to know.:eek:
Click on "My FlyerTalk" then on the left there will be "Ignore List". Enter the persons name you wish to ignore.
kwildnj
Mar 31, 12, 9:11 pm
Click on "My FlyerTalk" then on the left there will be "Ignore List". Enter the persons name you wish to ignore.
You can also, when logged in, click on the poster's username, and then choose to add them to your block list.
DrewBr
Mar 31, 12, 9:25 pm
You can also, when logged in, click on the poster's username, and then choose to add them to your block list.
Thank you. Reading will now be much more peaceful and relaxing, as it should be. ;)
I fiddled around for hours trying to figure it out. :confused:
I'm clueless, but less so now.:cool:
Apologies for the temporary hijack.
To learn, we must question.^
FWAAA
Mar 31, 12, 10:06 pm
Thank you. Reading will now be much more peaceful and relaxing, as it should be. ;)
I fiddled around for hours trying to figure it out. :confused:
I'm clueless, but less so now.:cool:
Apologies for the temporary hijack.
To learn, we must question.^
Welcome to Flyertalk. :)
No need to apologize - you didn't hijack this thread. :)
dhuey
Mar 31, 12, 10:40 pm
Apologies for the temporary hijack.
Not at all and welcome to FlyerTalk. Some of us were just indulging a conspiracy theorist for fun. That's not very typical around here -- usually it's about friendly people helping others with travel. Please stick around.
adamj023
Apr 1, 12, 12:23 am
Not at all and welcome to FlyerTalk. Some of us were just indulging a conspiracy theorist for fun. That's not very typical around here -- usually it's about friendly people helping others with travel. Please stick around.
No I did not make any conspiracy theories whatsoever and I am NOT a conspiracy theorist.
I am pointing out and have pointed out how bad the media reporting side of the story was on this issue because there are a lot of unanswered questions and the story they show or are trying to portray of the Captain as a criminal was hearsay and not justified in factual basis as of anything actually reported by the mainstream media.
What bothers me is everyone keeps focusing on the media videos that are displayed over and over, but not one single person has disputed the control of the airplane itself such as was the plane making any manuevers that were not on course to Las Vegas or that would have resulted in a crash of the aircraft and the answer to date is no because all information from the aircraft is transmitted to facilities and is available from flightaware data.
I don't see how that is a conspiracy theory. If anything the media reporting is a conspiracy theory for reporting it from the side of the passengers and what they saw, rather than the side of what actually was going on inside the cockpit and the portion where control of the aircraft power was with the Captain and the First Officer.
I could as a pilot say oh we aren't going to make it to Las Vegas in a joking format to a First Officer. Doesn't mean it is true or there is a perceived threat. In fact, before the pilot was locked out and used the bathroom, operational control was heading for Las Vegas and there was no change in anything that would suggest otherwise.
I am sick and tired of talking about it anymore and the rest of this case will be in final reports and in a courtroom if necessary HOWEVER guess what, the media just like usual will doubtfully focus on that aspect but instead likes to instill shock journalism of the video and the passenger stories.
But calling me a conspiracy theory is absolutely ludicrous. Flightaware data is NOT Conspiratorial in any way shape or form. And showing a pilot saying things in a video is also not newsworthy after he was locked out of the cabin.
The question is WHAT was going on INSIDE the COCKPIT before he was LOCKED OUT and the data as reported to the various tracking centers shows a clean bill of heath of all relevant information in regards to the operation of the aircraft in terms of Latitude, Longitude, Course, Direction,KTS,MPH, feet and Rate.
As I said manipulation of controls randomly would affect these statistics since they affect operational control of the airplane itself.
That is NOT a conspiracy. That is FACTUAL DATA as evidenced in this website:
If you tamper with controls and shut down an engine, guess what, speed drops!
If you tamper with flaps, you affect the rate of speed of the aircraft, and so on and so forth.
They would show up in http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JBU191/history/20120327/1055Z/KJFK/KAMA/tracklog
Does this data show anything as intent to crash an airplane or manipulate the flight course? No!
Now of course there could be stuff that isn't well established such as something really sinister found on the cockpit recording or this guy wound up breaking up with a Girlfrield or some extraneous issue going on in his life which was proven so that one could justify he was a threat or something was going to happen.
But saying things about terrorism after you are knowingly locked out and the FO declares a state of emergency allegedly claiming medical and then getting tackled to me doesn't seem like a breakdown at this moment at all at this moment. It seems like something else was going on and that part is in dispute, not a conspiracy either.
Also a subset of the navigational data from JetBlue 191:
KJFK Origin Airport 40.6397511 -73.7789256
RBV VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 40.2024022 -74.4950261
COPES Reporting Point 40.1307139 -75.3767694
BYRDD Reporting Point 40.0922028 -75.8186917
SAAME Reporting Point 40.0310611 -76.4839972
SAAME Reporting Point 40.0310611 -76.4839972
FLIRT Reporting Point 39.9287528 -76.7042528
HYPER Reporting Point 39.6839333 -77.2250944
MRB VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 39.3855722 -77.8483561
EYTEE Reporting Point 38.9792306 -78.8591167
COLNS Reporting Point 38.8404111 -79.1968361
PERKS Reporting Point 38.6613444 -80.1748222
HVQ VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 38.3496778 -81.7699122
SPAYD Reporting Point 38.1934889 -82.3246361
YOCKY Reporting Point 37.6541083 -84.1562333
UNCKL Reporting Point 37.4813556 -84.7163306
RYANS Reporting Point 37.3879583 -85.0169833
BWG VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 36.9287408 -86.4434342
ARG VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 36.1100000 -90.9536111
TUL VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 36.1963889 -95.7880556
MMB VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 36.3436111 -99.8800000
FTI VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 35.6575708 -105.1355889
FLYBY Reporting Point 35.6013528 -106.5799639
BUKKO Reporting Point 35.5290361 -107.9965528
GUP VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 35.4759992 -108.8726117
GUP VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 35.4759992 -108.8726117
DILCO Reporting Point 35.5312306 -110.0653694
BAVPE Reporting Point 35.5895028 -111.8804444
MOSBI RNAV 35.5929444 -111.8951944
CUTRO RNAV 35.6047167 -112.3833333
PGS VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 35.6247119 -113.5444667
PGS VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 35.6247222 -113.5444722
CEJAY Reporting Point 35.6791667 -113.9272500
KADDY Reporting Point 35.7424167 -114.3835278
TYSSN Waypoint 35.8555556 -114.4363889
SUZSI Waypoint 36.0375000 -114.5216667
PRINO Reporting Point 36.0732222 -114.7274722
KAMA Destination Airport 35.2193611 -101.7059167
Did the media show the flightaware data? No, they went with a dramatic story which was a bunch of nonsense because it didn't show any insight as to the aircraft's flying and navigational systems.
From a psychological perspective of the passenger and crewmembers its a totally different story than what was going on inside the cockpit.
Could the flight have continued on to Las Vegas without incident with this pilot? Most definitely from all I see right now. So why was this flight stopped midstream and a medical emergency really issued is the real question.
Im gone but the data is here for all to review and its not complicated to understand nor comprehend.
I gather more will be known though as to what really went on and we will see if any new facts or not emerge and if the pilot is even indicted or not and if the jury finds factual basis for holding this pilot who looked to be doing his job extremely well even on that day.
Strom
Apr 1, 12, 12:35 am
No I did not make any conspiracy theories whatsoever and I am NOT a conspiracy theorist.
You really think analyzing flightaware.com data is a good way to understand the pilot's mental state!? It seems almost entirely irrelevant, which is why you're being accused of a conspiracy theory: you're using irrelevant facts to try and prove a position that, while it can't be disproven, simply has no supporting evidence. What's more relevant to the pilot's psychological well-being are all of the overwhelmingly-consistent reports about his behavior: exiting the cabin to use the restroom without following procedure, wandering up and down the cabin making out-of-place comments to passengers, screaming insanely, suggesting there's a bomb on the plane for no reason, assaulting flight attendants, etc.
You're correct that the flightaware.com data proves that he didn't actually touch any switches. So what? No one's reporting that he physically attempted to down the plane.
Remember, he had plenty of opportunity for a rational discussion, were he capable of it, for the 30 min he was pinned down. Instead of talking to passengers and enlightening them that he was being framed, explaining an apparent plot by the co-pilot who was actually tricking them into subduing him (the real hero!), he chose to ramble incoherently, struggle more, and then attempt a last-minute physical escape from the people who had wrestled him to the ground.
And, now that we have the benefit of hindsight, the facts that the co-pilot didn't end up flying the plane into the ground (while alone in the cockpit with the perfect opportunity to kill everyone!) and that a bomb wasn't on board also implicate the pilot; either he lost his mind or had ill intentions. Of course, it's not yet proven, but please admit that there is simply no evidence to the contrary ... not that I am unwilling to listen to it as the details are revealed in court (which will be public record and immune to the conspiratorial slant you assign to the media).
adamj023
Apr 1, 12, 12:51 am
You really think analyzing flightaware.com data is a good way to understand the pilot's mental state!? It seems almost entirely irrelevant, which is why you're being accused of a conspiracy theory: you're using irrelevant facts to try and prove a position that, while it can't be disproven, simply has no supporting evidence. What's more relevant to the pilot's psychological well-being are all of the overwhelmingly-consistent reports about his behavior: exiting the cabin to use the restroom without following procedure, wandering up and down the cabin making out-of-place comments to passengers, screaming insanely, suggesting there's a bomb on the plane for no reason, assaulting flight attendants, etc.
You're correct that the flightaware.com data proves that he didn't actually touch any switches. So what? No one's reporting that he physically attempted to down the plane.
Remember, he had plenty of opportunity for a rational discussion, were he capable of it, for the 30 min he was pinned down. Instead of talking to passengers and enlightening them that he was being framed, explaining an apparent plot by the co-pilot who was actually tricking them into subduing him (the real hero!), he chose to ramble incoherently, struggle more, and then attempt a last-minute physical escape from the people who had wrestled him to the ground.
And, with hindsight, the facts that the co-pilot didn't end up flying the plane into the ground (while alone in the cockpit with the perfect opportunity to kill everyone!) and that a bomb wasn't on board (right?) also implicate the pilot (either he lost his mind or had ill intentions). Of course, it's not yet proven, but please admit that there is simply no evidence to the contrary ... not that I am unwilling to listen to it as the details are revealed in court -- which will be public record and immune to the conspiratorial slant you assign to the media.
The First Officer was the real one evaluating his mental state who locked the door on the Captain INSIDE THE COCKPIT before he got kicked out when the flight was flying fine as per all data disclosed above.
What was shown in the cockpit area is irrelevant but at that point he already knew he was kicked out by this First Officer.
As far as buttons pressed, they didn't manipulate flight controls but there could have been SOME buttons pressed, but again the black boxes have all that information as well above and beyond the publically disclosed flightaware data but as of right now, it doesn't seem to be like that.
Look, I know if I am an experienced Captain with 12 years experience and 18000 flight hours and not one blemish on my record, I could pretty much fly the plane with my hands behind my back. I am absolutely familiar with everything there is and have experienced loads of different situations in flight.
A change of mental state would mean I would be trembling or shaky or something outside the norm significantly so where I posed an imminant and dangerous threat. Considering the fly by wire nature of this jet, the jet was flying steady for a long time, and if he was on any drugs or alcohol or some other different state of mind, I am more than sure that there would have been abnormalities on the control of the jetplane which lasted the majority of way.
The case really doesn't make sense to me and I kid you not, the data is critical in my analysis and thinking about this in the FRAME and MIND of what was going on in the cockpit with the Captain.
If you had 2 people sitting in the cockpit, one captain, one flight officer.
How would you know if the FO wasn't the one who was not qualified and locked the Captain out because HE was a terrorist and the crew just unknowingly went along with the wrong person that day.
Its a more complex issue than you think.
mbstone
Apr 1, 12, 1:15 am
Please don't feed the trolls, also please don't quote them, you are bypassing peoples' ignore filters.
Thomas Hudson
Apr 1, 12, 6:50 am
What if the Copilot and a FA conspired to drug the captain's coffee with LSD because he figured out that the Illuminati were in control of Jet Blue and they wanted to make a grand gesture of making him look crazy so no one would listen to him? Also, sharks with lazer beams would be cool too...
DontCallMeShirley
Apr 1, 12, 7:41 am
THE CAPTAIN WAS NOT KICKED OUT OF THE FLIGHT DECK. Are you playing around or just dumb to the true facts? Is this an elaborite April Fools joke by you? Is today the day you are gonna say "just kidddddding!"?
He broke protocol when exiting the flight deck. It is a big deal. If even there were no other words spoken before (which there were) or after (which there were), THAT, in and of itself would be SIGN # 1.
In all of my years flying I have NEVER, ever seen a pilot leave the flight deck unannounced since 9/11. I have NEVER had a pilot pound on the lav door yelling at someone to come out. I have NEVER had a pilot aggressively grab my hands. I have NEVER seen a pilot walk to the back of a full plane in flight. I have NEVER heard a pilot ask a pax "you got a problem?".
The autopilot would have been engaged, so why would you see any deviation in the flight pattern up to that point? Doesn't mean the crew should not have taken action when it was deemed the Captain wasn't fit to fly. It's all recorded. Don't you worry. All of his crazy comments are there. All of the interphone exchanges between the FD and cabin crew are there, with the FAA. We will know soon enough. But for now, there is a sworn document from the entire crew that describes his actions in detail.
Don't be a putz.
The First Officer was the real one evaluating his mental state who locked the door on the Captain INSIDE THE COCKPIT before he got kicked out when the flight was flying fine as per all data disclosed above.
orlandodlplat
Apr 1, 12, 8:11 am
I had no idea these boards could be so entertaining, and I've been around a while.
On the DL board, adamj023 is the resident teen armchair-CEO-who-never-actually-flies-anywhere, who appears to sit in his mom's basement theorizing about such interesting issues as If Delta merges with American, what happens at JFK to T2, T4 and T8 (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-skymiles/1307875-if-delta-merges-american-what-happens-jfk-t2-t4-t8.html), What is a Mileage run? (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mileage-run-discussion/1084181-what-mileage-run.html) and the super-scary Bringing a checked gun on a Delta flight (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta-skymiles/1278574-bringing-checked-gun-delta-flight.html).
That last one makes a lot more sense now...
The First Officer was the real one evaluating his mental state who locked the door on the Captain INSIDE THE COCKPIT before he got kicked out when the flight was flying fine as per all data disclosed above.
As far as the authorities have reported, this guy didn't manipulate any control surfaces (by that point) that would have changed that data. But if he was ranting about religion and turning off the radios and saying they were "not going to Vegas," the FO was absolutely correct in blocking him from returning to the flight deck. Come to think of it, why on earth did the FO wait more than three hours to take action?
As far as buttons pressed, they didn't manipulate flight controls but there could have been SOME buttons pressed, but again the black boxes have all that information as well above and beyond the publically disclosed flightaware data but as of right now, it doesn't seem to be like that.
Oh, so now you're contradicting yourself.
Look, I know if I am an experienced Captain with 12 years experience and 18000 flight hours and not one blemish on my record, I could pretty much fly the plane with my hands behind my back. I am absolutely familiar with everything there is and have experienced loads of different situations in flight.
Actually, it's much the contrary. An experienced, professional commercial pilot NEVER deviates from procedure, from checklists, from crew briefings. A true professional pilot never allows him/herself a sense of "absolute" familiarity with "everything there is." This is because every flight is different. Complacency equals death in the face of an unexpected emergency. See Colgan Air.
A change of mental state would mean I would be trembling or shaky or something outside the norm significantly so where I posed an imminant and dangerous threat. Considering the fly by wire nature of this jet, the jet was flying steady for a long time, and if he was on any drugs or alcohol or some other different state of mind, I am more than sure that there would have been abnormalities on the control of the jetplane which lasted the majority of way.
So now, in addition to an armchair airline CEO, you're also an armchair psychiatrist? No, a "change in mental state" does not necessarily render someone into a quivering, shaky mess. Plus, the flight is controlled during cruise by something called an "auto-pilot." This means the pilot's "trembling or shaky" hands wouldn't have created these "abnormalities" of which you speak.
How would you know if the FO wasn't the one who was not qualified and locked the Captain out because HE was a terrorist and the crew just unknowingly went along with the wrong person that day.
Um, maybe because the people on board are alive and well, after the FO brought the aircraft down safely?
The case really doesn't make sense to me...
Its a more complex issue than you think.
Yeah, no kidding. You should take some of your own advice here.
dhuey
Apr 1, 12, 10:43 am
Done here but the end result of this case will get finalized and obviously the news media won't bring that part up as the big headline but instead the sensationalism part which the media brought up.
Im gone but the data is here for all to review and its not complicated to understand nor comprehend.
We can't miss you 'cause you never leave.
OPNLguy
Apr 1, 12, 1:09 pm
I hope he can get some job, but don't you think there would be a minor panic in the cabin each time he would turn on the PA and say, "Good morning, folks, this is Captain Osbon...."
As KF'd pointed out, crews need not use their names during PAs, but that said, that aural anonymity can be negated by having had one's picture repeatedly plastered all over the nation's media outlets over the last few days, and subsequently being recognized in public or on an aircraft.
The previous incident involving the drunk pilot who served time and eventually returned to his flying career was good to see (the return part, that is), but that incident versus 191's might be viewed in different contexts as far as potential seriousness is concerned. Part of that (right or wrong) is that many folks' perceptions as related to alcohol abuse versus mental illness (real or perceived), and I think the latter affliction could have a longer "half-life" as far as people "forgiving and forgetting" as it were. It's unfortunate, and I wish it wasn't so, but there are often two distinct stigma levels involved.
It remains to be seen what the cause for this fellow's difficulty is determined to be, and how that may affect a trial/punishment based on the filed charges (if a trial is even held), and I wish nothing but the best for him. That said, his future career may well largely depend on whether he gets his Class-1 medical and FAA certificates back (assuming he loses his current ones), and also upon whether the risk assessment by the airline and its hull insuror(s) result in them both having the requisite faith and confidence as to his not having a possible repeat occurrence. Said another way, what's their exposure potential?
If he has insurance for loss-of-medical or his FAA certificate(s), that should mitigate the financial impact to him and his family, no matter how the overall situation eventually shakes out...
dhuey
Apr 1, 12, 3:13 pm
If he has insurance for loss-of-medical or his FAA certificate(s), that should mitigate the financial impact to him and his family, no matter how the overall situation eventually shakes out...
Do you happen to know if such insurance is provided to pilots via CBAs, or is that something pilots would typically have to obtain on their own?