Travel with Children - Fixing a rf car seat in aircraft

Hi, Any ideas on how to fix a rf infant car seat in airplane, its a 3 point car seat.

What kind of car seat do you have? I don't think 3 point harness seats are still legal in the US. They are used in the UK and Europe. Most 3 point harnessed seats in the US has expire.

Most seats install the same on aircraft as they would in a vehicle. The manual should have instructions for aircraft installation.

thx for your reply.. the car seat is graco junior, i purchased a few months ago in dubai..honestly not sure if its 3 point or 2 point. its fixed in the car with the shoulder car strap going behind the car seat and the lap strap going over the front of the car seat... i wonder now withe the aircraft seat belt being just a strap how do i fix the car seat in it...

I have to go to work so I don't have time to research the seat at this moment. It sounds like you do not have a base for the seat? For easier installation and ease of use, you can look into buying a base that stays in the car and then you just click the seat right onto it. That eliminates the need for strapping the seat in with the seat belt every time you move baby.

I'll have to look for a manual, but it looks like you need a lap/shoulder belt to install the seat, therefore you probably won't be able to use it on a plane. I could be wrong. If I have time later today I'll do some digging and see what I can come up with.

You don't need bases for the aircraft installation. In fact, they usually say not to do that. You install it using the 2 point seat belt.

Here in Europe, a lot of the seats are designed for a 3 point seat belt (shoulder strap) so they are not approved for use on aircraft.

Your manual will have this information, if not printed on a sticker somewhere on the seat.

Checked the manual there is no mention whether its approved for airplanes nor a sticker. Doesnt give any info on fixing it to a 2 point strap.It does show a sticker for ece r44/04. This is approved by the airlines. Also i hv confirmed the car seat dimensions with the airlines so it fits in the airplane seat, the only aspect is now the actually fixing of the infant carseat.

called klm again and now they give me new info.car seat must be front facing is it possible to still use the graco junior which is an infant child seat its rear facing only without base..is it possible to strap the airline belt across the front of the infant car seat..

You absolutely cannot install a rear facing only seat in a forward facing position.
If the manual does not state that this seat is approved for use on aircraft, and if KLM prohibits rear facing on their planes, then one would assume that you cannot use this seat on KLM.

Definitely don't run the strap across the front of the seat. How old is the child? What is their weight ?

thank you for your replies.. that rules out the infant seat then, the child is 1 year old about 9 kgs -20 lbs. i have been looking ard for a ff carseat of 16.5inch or 42cms, the closest i have got is a cosco ventura commuter which is still 44cms at the widest point...any ideas about it...i also have a nania carseat which is ff at widht of 44cms not sure if its a brand available in the americas..at 44cms not sure it will fit...called KLM and they dont allow CARES and seat must be 42cms...being booked at bulkhead seats wont be able to lif the armrests too...almost at wits end now...

How tall is your child?

If your kid is not above average for height/weight, then the combi cocoro would be a great seat for air travel.

Another option is the Cosco Scenera.

Both are light-weight and easy to install using the lap belt. Both should fit rear- or forward-facing. Both are available in the US. Of the two, I would think the cocoro would be easier to find outside of the US.

The Scenera has a higher weight/height limit, but the Cocoro is an overall nicer seat.

You might also try asking about this on the http://car-seat.org forums. There are lots of experts there.

thank you for your replies.. that rules out the infant seat then, the child is 1 year old about 9 kgs -20 lbs. i have been looking ard for a ff carseat of 16.5inch or 42cms, the closest i have got is a cosco ventura commuter which is still 44cms at the widest point...any ideas about it...i also have a nania carseat which is ff at widht of 44cms not sure if its a brand available in the americas..at 44cms not sure it will fit...called KLM and they dont allow CARES and seat must be 42cms...being booked at bulkhead seats wont be able to lif the armrests too...almost at wits end now...

Can you go into a store that sells them and look at where they are wider - some car seats widest points are at the head, so you may still get one that will fit at the hip (where the armrests are)

thank you for your replies.. that rules out the infant seat then, the child is 1 year old about 9 kgs -20 lbs. i have been looking ard for a ff carseat of 16.5inch or 42cms, the closest i have got is a cosco ventura commuter which is still 44cms at the widest point...any ideas about it...i also have a nania carseat which is ff at widht of 44cms not sure if its a brand available in the americas..at 44cms not sure it will fit...called KLM and they dont allow CARES and seat must be 42cms...being booked at bulkhead seats wont be able to lif the armrests too...almost at wits end now...

OP, what country are you in? Do you live in Dubai or did you just buy the Graco Junior there? At 1 year old and 20lbs, I would definately recommend she still rear face in a car. 1 year and 20lbs is the absolute bare minimum for forward facing. I would recommend getting a convertible seat that can rear face and forward face. That way you can install the seat forward facing on the plane and rear facing in the car, since KLM does not allow rear facing.

Also, how tall is the child?

I know car-seat.org can be a little bit intimidating since it is over populated with techs, so I found these two threads for you. They are fairly old, but still relevant. They discuss several ECE R44 approved seats (European) and I *think* that you can use an ECE R44 seat in Dubai. I'm willing to be corrected on that.

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=94710&highlight=dubai
Page two of the above thread shows installation of a Britax Two Way installed in a small vehicle.

http://www.car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=64693
This thread has some useful info as well.

http://community.babycenter.com/groups/a7645/car_seat_questions
This is a much more user friendly forum. Lots of good info, but US centric. There are a few techs on there with fairly good knowledge about European seats.

I have no knowledge about individual European seats so I cannot give you examples of specific seats, although I might just be partial to the Britax Multi-tech!

Good luck and happy shopping!

Thank you swise for your reply... both the car seats you have mentioned are not available here in dubai..cosco has only the ventura/commuter here...seeing the dimensions of the coroco i am sure it would fit the airplane seats..sadly its not sold here in dubai..

Emma...good point that to check where exactly is the widest point and if the hip area is actually over 16.5 inchs i will check on that...thank you

cb bear.. i live in dubai and have a rear facing convertible car seat...the nania is the one i use in the car presently...this seat can be used as ff too after 1 yr and baby weighs over 20lbs... thank you for the links..will check if anything turns up...else will try my luck with the nania and cares in the flight..

There is another thread for this.

For US carriers, the FAA specifically states that rear facing seats should be used for infants
Always follow the manufacturer's instructions when using a CRS. FAA recommends that a child weighing:
Less than 20 pounds use a rear-facing CRS
From 20 to 40 pounds use a forward-facing CRS
More than 40 pounds use an airplane seat belt
A child may also use an alternative, such as a a harness-type restraint, if it is approved by FAA. FAA has approved one restraint appropriate for children weighing between 22 and 44 pounds. This type of restraint is not safe for use in motor vehicles.

This whole thing is a confusing mess for me. I need the car seat when I get to the destination. Help!
Looking at the FAA it says less than 20lbs use a rear facing seat. I will be flying with an infant less than 20lbs. So, I can use the normal car seat? That is what I am confused about. It is a Britax Chaperone and says it is certified for air travel. Thanks in advance for any help!

Yes, those FAA "recommendations" are out-of-date. They allow rear-facing car seats for older children. But you don't have to worry about that-yet!

Is this it?
http://www.britaxusa.com/car-seats/chaperone

Double check the manual but I believe you install it on the plane without the base. Practice this before leaving in your car.

You might want to just leave the base behind if you wont be doing too much driving. One less thing to drag along...

Here are a couple of documents you might want to print up and bring along (assuming it's a U.S. company).
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info/all_infos/media/2011/InFO11007.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%20120-87B.pdf

Thanks for the info. Yes, that's the car seat. I didn't want to open the box if it couldn't be used on a plane. Unfortunately, there will be quite a bit of flying being done from 6 weeks after birth until who knows when.
I will practice before we start flying.
I know I'll be back with more questions as the time gets nearer. Thanks for all the info you provide.

Thanks for the info. Yes, that's the car seat. I didn't want to open the box if it couldn't be used on a plane. Unfortunately, there will be quite a bit of flying being done from 6 weeks after birth until who knows when.
I will practice before we start flying.
I know I'll be back with more questions as the time gets nearer. Thanks for all the info you provide.

Most of the European airlines do not allow any rear facing car seats to be used on the plane. US airlines do allow them on US planes.

There is no point in buying a car seat for use on the plane if the airline refuses to let he seat be usd. Check with the airline you will be flying.

I am flying the new grandbaby from the UK to US. To get a nonstop I chose Virgin because they provide a special infant/child seat when you when you buy a child fare. Virgin does not allow car seats in the cabin.

This whole thing is a confusing mess for me. I need the car seat when I get to the destination. Help!
Looking at the FAA it says less than 20lbs use a rear facing seat. I will be flying with an infant less than 20lbs. So, I can use the normal car seat? That is what I am confused about. It is a Britax Chaperone and says it is certified for air travel. Thanks in advance for any help!

The FAA is the regulatory body for the US (and probably North America). Europe has a different regulatory body and it's own rules and recommendations. Do not expect FAA regulations to cover non-American carriers.

The FAA is the regulatory body for the US (and probably North America).
The FAA is just for the U.S. ... We have Transport Canada Civil Aviation (http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/menu.htm/)"up" here. :p

All the flying should be in the US on US carriers. I will call the 2 potential carriers and ask about the car seat.

Don't call, email them from their site. Only call the company when dealing with something solid like the reservations and taking care of something you can verify later (like seat assignments).

Don't call about general information, especially something that could be a problem at the airport.

Anything can be said over the phone while an email can be printed up and brought to the airport. Also, many companies have remote call centers and the information they give out isn't always accurate.

All the flying should be in the US on US carriers. I will call the 2 potential carriers and ask about the car seat.

Their policies will be spelled out on the website. This may be a bit tricky to find but is the best thing. That way you have a written policy to print out and show the agents and FA if there is any question.

Some airlines are better than others when it comes to that information on the site but all U.S. companies have to accept FAA approved seats for children who have their own place on the airplane. The airline cannot refuse the parents to install the car seat and have to move them if necessary.

What isn't clear is whether over 20lbs. & 1 year old children have the right to rear-face on the aircraft. Under those parameters, they do.

No issues at all with the rear facing seat. Not even a second glance. Definitely recommend buying them their own seat. We had our hands free to eat and were able to function normally instead of holding a baby for hours on end.
Was fairly easy to fasten the rear facing seat into the seat. The 757 domestic F seat was a little more difficult than the 767. The clicking part wouldn't move enough to get a secure (very, very tight) fit.

No issues at all with the rear facing seat. Not even a second glance. Definitely recommend buying them their own seat. We had our hands free to eat and were able to function normally instead of holding a baby for hours on end.
Was fairly easy to fasten the rear facing seat into the seat. The 757 domestic F seat was a little more difficult than the 767. The clicking part wouldn't move enough to get a secure (very, very tight) fit.

^^^

Gald everything went well for you! One trick I've learned is to recline the seat back while installing the car seat. When you are done, put the seat back in the upright position. I get a very solid installation this way.

I'll do that next time. Thanks for the advice.

Had to get a seatbelt extender for flight yesterday. It was a domestic F 757-200. Seven row F class. First time I could not make it work. Before it was not a great fit, this time it just wouldn't reach at all. Seatbelt extender was great because it was an extremely tight fit.

Curious what seat you had. Is it one of those big European seats that the seat belt goes around?

It was just a standard Delta domestic F seat. In other words, nothing fancy at all! The problem was the side of the belt with the insert part was not long enough to get up and threaded through the car seat. And the other side was not long enough to get all the way over the car seat and connect to the insert.
We have 4 flights under our belt! Two times the seat belt was fine. Two times it has not been.
We try again in two weeks.

Oops! I meant the car seat...

Odd that on the same airline, you'd run into this twice and then not on two other flights. Shorter seat belts? Different class?

It is a Britax Chaperone. It is a large carseat, it seems. It takes up all the space between the rows. The seat belt doesn't go around it. It goes over it.
All the flights have been DL F class. But we've been on 4 different planes. I am finally starting to repeat planes so now I know what to expect when I board.

I wouldn't have thought there would be problems with an infant bucket seat.

http://www.britaxusa.com/car-seats/chaperone

Without the base, it looks like it wouldn't be that big.

We have very similar Britax seats (two of them), and have taken them in planes without the bases, which we leave at home. They really do fill nearly every inch between the rows, and on a few planes, we had to put them in forward-facing to get them to fit. That's probably some sort of violation, but it was the only thing we could do. And it's gotta be better than merely holding the babies on our laps.

Bruce

Oh, it sounds like the culprit was the fit, not the width of the seat. I understand there is one U.S. company, domestic, that has a really short pitch (will find out) and rfing car seats wont fit.

One kind-of solution is to install them correctly for take-off and landing, then switch it around during the cruise portion of the flight. This is obviously not a very workable plan if you're flying LAX-SFO but for a long flight, when you have time... You can even explain it to your buddy in front of your child, that they can happily recline later on. Everyone has to be in the "upright and uncomfortable" position anyway during those times (Sorry, had to quote Southwest there, for those who remember them!)

Width is the problem for the seatbelt. Thankfully, I have been in F so the seat fits between the rows. Barely. I can't imagine that it will fit in the rows in coach.
I use it without the base on the plane.
bdschobel - you're saying it does fit width wise in Y? But, not rearfacing? I was thinking it wouldn't fit at all in Y.

My seats fit on the airlines I primarily use: Delta and United. I'm sure that other seats might not fit on other airlines (or even on certain planes flown by my preferred airlines). Maybe I've just been lucky on my kids' 16 flights in their lives! :)

Bruce

All our flights have been Delta. I was considering a Southwest flight for next week and went with DL F class after thinking the carseat wouldn't fit in any Y class seats. If it fits on Delta and United it should work on Southwest, I would think. I may use them next time it's convenient.
What particular planes did you have to have the seats forward facing?

I can't recall the exact model, but it was definitely a regional jet. There was just not enough seat pitch to allow rear-facing installation.

Bruce

Airplane seats can push forwards, but that's obviously not a solution if people are seated in front of you.

Technically, by FAA rules, if the children had purchases places on the flight, and the car seat didn't fit, they were supposed to reseat you. I admit this can be daunting in the circumstances, especially on a small plane right before departure...

It's somewhere in this fun document;
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%20120-87B.pdf

I haven't bought a seat for my babies yet -- though obviously I'll have to do that after they turn 2. I have carefully chosen flights at odd hours that were not full and arranged -- turning my powers of persuasion up to their highest setting -- to have the seats next to me and the twins' mom blocked (or at least one seat blocked). It's not something that you can rely on, but I've had very good luck so far.

Oh, wait, I just remembered that I did buy a seat for one baby last May on a flight to Los Angeles. So I did it once (two flights in total).

Bruce

I have been able to avoid the regionals. I don't like them anyway and now flying with an infant I will avoid them as much as I can.
I figured they had to reseat me if the seat I purchased doesn't work with the carseat. Though, that would definitely be daunting, as you said.

Update on travels.
Yesterday the FA on first flight said I was not supposed to put the car seat in the way I had it. She said put a blanket over the seatbelt and she wouldn't say anything. I honestly have no idea what she thought the problem was. I didn't argue with her, just said this is how it is supposed to be and how I have always done it. Then put a blanket over it.
As I was deplaning I put the car seat on a Y seat as I was gathering my stuff. It did not fit at all! It was too wide. My conclusion is I am stuck buying F as long as we are using the Britax Chaperone.

No, that F/A was in the wrong. You are allowed to install a car seat rear-facing as long as your child is in the limits. Contact United and let them know because this is a FAA violation. I'm not sure what the blanket was supposed to do. She's misinformed. Let us know what United writes back.

Did you try lifting the armrests of the Y seat? Usually that works for the bigger seats in those seats.

Sorry for the length, but we're pretty steamed.

Our son is 17 mos, but we keep him rear-facing in the car per current safety guidelines. Car seat is a Britax convertible than can go forward forward or rear. This was our first time flying with him using a car seat. He's a cheerful but squirmy little fellow and the extra cost of the seat was worth it compared to holding him in our laps cross-country.

First flight: 737 PDX-DEN. Installed his seat forward facing. He woke up halfway through the flight and started kicking, kicking, kicking the seat in front of him. Had to hold his feet to prevent that until he calmed down.

Second flight: 737 DEN-PHL. Asked FA if we could install rear-facing. No problem with that, she said whatever we feel is best. Flight went great...rear-facing was definitely an improvement.

Third flight: CRJ-700 PHL-ORD operated by GoJet d/b/a United Express. Gate agent pulled us out of line to inspect car seat to see if FAA compliant. It was. We asked gate agent if OK to install rear-facing on this plane, and she nodded approval. Upon boarding plane we did not come into contact with any FA so we simply went ahead and installed it rear-facing. It fit just fine. FA's went through the aisle multiple times doing pre-departure check of seatbelts, etc. They made no comments. Son falls asleep during taxiing.

15 minutes after lift-off, the lead FA comes to us and says that it was "illegal" (her word) to have a car seat rear-facing on this particular aircraft. She said that as soon as the captain turned off the seat-belt sign, we would have to remove our son and turn the seat around to face forward. We pointed out that he was sound asleep, that the car seat fit into the allotted space, that the gate agent implied we could install it rear-facing, and that neither she nor the other FA had said anything about that before lift-off despite making repeated trips up and down the aisle.

FA did apologize for not "catching this" before lift-off, but said she was not responsible for anything the gate agent said, and FA went on to say that she was not going to risk "losing her license" by allowing us to have an "illegally" installed car seat on her flight. At this point we were not very happy but I informed my wife that the FA had the power to summon LEO's to meet us at the gate in ORD so we had better comply. Never mind the fact that turning the car seat around meant removing our son from the safety of his car seat. At least the FA permitted us to wait until the seat belt sign was off. And thank goodness, our little fellow woke up for the switcheroo but fell right back asleep.

Fourth flight: 737 ORD-PDX. Ask the person who appeared to be lead FA if we could install rear-facing. She was yes, that was allowed. No further issues.

So...big question...was the FA on the CRJ-700 correct when she said it was illegal to install the seat rear-facing on that particular aircraft? I have been unable to find any aircraft-specific regulations about installing rear versus forward. United's website also does not address the issue. I think the FA was full of it. Nevertheless, we will be complaining to United.

While we have a Britax Boulevard for the car, we have another for air travel that is lighter and narrower so a lot of the issues about fitting seats are overcome (it is 17 inches wide). The US version is noted on several threads as the Cosco Scenera. That model is not sold in Canada and is not authorized by Transport Canada but probably would be if anybody sold it. Instead, Dorel, which markets the Cosco brand, sells the Scenera under their Safety First brand at Walmart. It is very cheap and easy to use with excellent instructions. It is convertible from forward to rear facing with a hinged base and uses LATCH connectors or any type of seatbelt. The price regularly goes between $65 and $90.

......

So...big question...was the FA on the CRJ-700 correct when she said it was illegal to install the seat rear-facing on that particular aircraft? I have been unable to find any aircraft-specific regulations about installing rear versus forward. United's website also does not address the issue. I think the FA was full of it. Nevertheless, we will be complaining to United.

She was incorrect. I would see if it is possible to file a complaint with the FAA as well. Eclipsepearl would be more helpful in that department.