China - Water and ice consumption

I'm generally pretty careful about avoiding ice and tap water when traveling to countries like China.

Couple of things I've had questions about and never really seen a definitive answer.

1. In cities like Beijing that have McDonalds and KFC, the soft drinks are from a fountain like in the US. Is that untreated tap water being used for both the soft drink and the ice? Are they as safe to drink as bottled water or should they be avoided just like tap water? Also, what about things like raw lettuce and other unpeeled veggies on sandwiches?

2. I've also wondered about airline catering originating from developing countries. Are raw salads and unpeeled veggies and ice safe to consume or are they to be avoided the same way one would avoid them while visiting? Last time I was in Beijing even the water at the airport was not potable and I got to wondering about catering.

1) Fountain drinks and ice consumption at the western-branded restaurants like McD's and KFC are safe. Water supply does not come from tap but from bottled, and ice comes from purified ice factories. I will also use ice in drinks from "better" restaurants. In local dives and very small town restaurants, I buy canned soft drinks from the cooler, and use a straw. Cold beer is always OK. (Actually even warm beer is OK just yucky.) Bottled water is everywhere. Tap water is not OK anywhere (even though in cities like Beijing, it is treated, there are still too many potential breakdowns in the treatment and distribution process to trust it).

2) I personally avoid lettuce and uncooked vegetables on sandwiches and elsewhere, since I can pretty much guarantee they will have been incompletely washed and then under tap water.. But then, I do this even in the USA and developed countries as well. I tend to avoid salads unless prepared at home, or at very particular restaurants. Five-star hotel catering should be above reproach, but often isn't.

3) Airline catering should always be suspect. Use same protocols as you would in ground-based restaurant. I avoid: any cold seafood such as seafood salad (actually on any airline anywhere, these days), cold salads with raw veggies (ditto), ice in drinks (though that's probably safe).

FWIW, I've lived in China for over 10 years, and have NEVER had a gastrointestinal illness at all. It is not inevitable that one will get sick on a trip, you just have to use common sense. A cousin once got horribly ill gobbling from the sushi bar at a Nanjing upscale hotel. Tried to tell him this wasn't a good idea but he wouldn't listen. His punishment for not listening to the Wisdom of Jiejie was a night in the bathroom praying to the Porcelain God. :D

Thanks good info. Glad to know you've stayed healthy. Any other tips for things to avoid?

What about food and ice on trains?

On domestic flights?

[QUOTE=mlasser;18279609]

Any other tips for things to avoid?

What about food and ice on trains?

[QUOTE]

Tips

#1 When eating hot pot if you put raw meat into the pot with your chopsticks be sure to dip the stick ends into the hot pot to sterilize
them from any bacteria from the raw meat.

#2 Beware of alcohol poisoning when attending functions with government
officials as baijiu may have >55% alcohol content and if its top shelf
it goes down very easy.

Water...I usually drink hot water as its good for your health.:cool:

Thanks good info. Glad to know you've stayed healthy. Any other tips for things to avoid?

What about food and ice on trains?

On domestic flights?

Train food can be okay on the old school trains that have ovens, but is dreadful on HSR trains (microwave only).

I have never seen a single ice cube during my many years of train travel.

I trust airplane ice, when it is available.

I have neve seen ice on domestic flights. Pepsi and other drinks are usually served in room temp.

I have to say, unlike jiejie, I like to live a little more dangerously. I like fruit and salad, and just take it as a risk when eating out. I would perhaps be less inclined outside of big cities, where water sanitation is even less likely to be robust.

Re: ice, again, if it's a tiny place, with 'dubious' hygiene, avoid. Otherwise, it's probably OK.

My biggest issue is that I almost never see a Chinese person wash their hands. I don't know what goes on in restaurant kitchens, but I am happier in ignorance. Having said that, have rarely had an issue, and certainly no more than US and Europe.

As a casual visitor I would be more cautious, since you'll survive perfectly well without fruit/ raw vegetables/ice for a week or two.

I like the hotpot tip given above -- I usually use dedicated chopsticks for the raw meat.

tb

Something to consider is that American and other major chain hotels tend to have strict F&B handling requirements while locally owned and operated hotels can be more risky. YMMV

I like the hotpot tip given above -- I usually use dedicated chopsticks for the raw meat.



That's prudent, dedicated chopsticks. Don't see that as offensive to
a host, more so proper etiquette.

You shouldn't have a big problem in China if you just stick to bottled water (which is available for cheap anywhere), just make sure the seal is not tampered with or anything like that, but that is not a big problem at least not in Beijing. Soft drinks etc are all safe. Food, if the place is packed with locals you can assume it is safe.

And at PEK airport you can get free drinking water at the dedicated stations scattered around the terminals. Had no problem with that.

Both are safe IMO. I've never had an issue with fastfood places and drinks. Food too. YMMV.

One time I got very bad worms because of fresh chinese vegetables. After some month of medical treatment they was gone, but it was no fun.
But I still eat chinese vegetables now. Life is always a risk.
In Yunnan Province I drink also some soft drinks which was made with tap water. I got no problems from this.

One time I got very bad worms because of fresh chinese vegetables. After some month of medical treatment they was gone, but it was no fun.
But I still eat chinese vegetables now. Life is always a risk.
In Yunnan Province I drink also some soft drinks which was made with tap water. I got no problems from this.

With all due respect, I'm wondering how one can be sure it was the fresh chinese vegetables that were to blame, rather than, say, poorly cooked meat, or other issues? What 'worms' were they?

Glad that you are better now.

tb

With all due respect, I'm wondering how one can be sure it was the fresh chinese vegetables that were to blame, rather than, say, poorly cooked meat, or other issues? What 'worms' were they?

Glad that you are better now.

tb

Of course I can't be 100% sure, but for me I know where it came from. Was some nice nematodes.

Of course I can't be 100% sure, but for me I know where it came from. Was some nice nematodes.

Fair enough...although in my experience, except with certain pathogens with clear aetiology (e.g. T. solium), general poor hygiene -- e.g. in food handlers -- makes identifying culprit 'food' difficult.

tb

Fair enough...although in my experience, except with certain pathogens with clear aetiology (e.g. T. solium), general poor hygiene -- e.g. in food handlers -- makes identifying culprit 'food' difficult.

Sure, could also get them in my home country. But it was my first vacation in a asian country, I eat some vegetables without peeling or washing direct from a farm, so... anyway its good that they are gone, was no fun. But this is no reason to be to carefull, I still street food in china.

I've violated every bit of food safety advice: I eat raw salads, I consume drinks with dodgy ice, eat random street food constantly, and have, on occasion, even drunk water straight from the tap. I've yet to get ill from any of it, though on occasion I'm definitely pushing my luck... I don't even want to think about how much 地沟油 I've consumed over the years. :(

Unless you have a particularly sensitive stomach, in my opinion, you'll be fine with anything you'll encounter along the typical tourist track. Following the general advice about ice and water is probably a good idea, but I wouldn't worry as much about salad, street food, and so on if the restaurants/vendors in question are popular with the locals.

That's prudent, dedicated chopsticks. Don't see that as offensive to
a host, more so proper etiquette.Or use the back of the chopsticks, turning them around, as is the custom.

Or use the back of the chopsticks, turning them around, as is the custom.

Yes also common, pick up dish and use back of chopsticks to slide the
food into pot.

Fair enough...although in my experience, except with certain pathogens with clear aetiology (e.g. T. solium), general poor hygiene -- e.g. in food handlers -- makes identifying culprit 'food' difficult.

tb

It's likely that you just know what caused it.

It's likely that you just know what caused it.

err..not according to many, many scientific studies on the matter. But each to their own I guess.

tb

err..not according to many, many scientific studies on the matter. But each to their own I guess.

tb

Yeah, and of course scientific studies are never shown to be wrong. But to each their (sic) own I guess.

Yeah, and of course scientific studies are never shown to be wrong. But to each their (sic) own I guess.

I don't want to drag this thread too OT, but I am bemused that you feel your ESP intuition is likely to be more reliable and accurate than large studies.

Yes, scientific studies can be wrong, but that is precisely because the scientific method makes no claims about absolute knowledge: scientific knowledge is constantly being updated and models being revised.

tb

I don't want to drag this thread too OT, but I am bemused that you feel your ESP intuition is likely to be more reliable and accurate than large studies.

Yes, scientific studies can be wrong, but that is precisely because the scientific method makes no claims about absolute knowledge: scientific knowledge is constantly being updated and models being revised.

tb

Sorry to bemuse you, I guess that's just something that you'll need to deal with yourself.

Sorry to bemuse you, I guess that's just something that you'll need to deal with yourself.

No need to apologise, and I'm rather used to being amused by being bemused.

Safe travels.

tb

No need to apologise, and I'm rather used to being amused by being bemused.

Safe travels.

tb

Welcome to my ignore list, there are one or two other people who always have to feel that they're correct, so you should feel right at home there.

Welcome to my ignore list, there are one or two other people who always have to feel that they're correct, so you should feel right at home there.

Let me give you a heads-up: the China forum has discussions and sometimes heated ones, but is not normally given to stooping to the level of personal nastiness and things are generally civil. Perhaps in your newness here, you have not noticed this. If you wish to put any other FT'er on your "list" then that is your prerogative, but extraneous comments trumpeting your actions are uncool, and smacks of somebody who may not need to feel correct, but does need to get the last word. IMO, you are misreading trublu, and quickly instigating an argument for what purpose I have no idea.

The entire sidebar conversation also managed to derail this thread, which is an important topic in China travel and should get back on track with direct meaningful topical discussion. Thank you.

Let me give you a heads-up: the China forum has discussions and sometimes heated ones, but is not normally given to stooping to the level of personal nastiness and things are generally civil. Perhaps in your newness here, you have not noticed this. If you wish to put any other FT'er on your "list" then that is your prerogative, but extraneous comments trumpeting your actions are uncool, and smacks of somebody who may not need to feel correct, but does need to get the last word. IMO, you are misreading trublu, and quickly instigating an argument for what purpose I have no idea.

The entire sidebar conversation also managed to derail this thread, which is an important topic in China travel and should get back on track with direct meaningful topical discussion. Thank you.

+1

Let me give you a heads-up: the China forum has discussions and sometimes heated ones, but is not normally given to stooping to the level of personal nastiness and things are generally civil. Perhaps in your newness here, you have not noticed this. If you wish to put any other FT'er on your "list" then that is your prerogative, but extraneous comments trumpeting your actions are uncool, and smacks of somebody who may not need to feel correct, but does need to get the last word. IMO, you are misreading trublu, and quickly instigating an argument for what purpose I have no idea.

The entire sidebar conversation also managed to derail this thread, which is an important topic in China travel and should get back on track with direct meaningful topical discussion. Thank you.
+2

+3 I like hot water.

1) Fountain drinks and ice consumption...

2) I personally avoid lettuce and uncooked vegetables.... :D

Hmm... I was slowed down by some intestinal issues on my last visit to ShenZhen (erp!). After a review of this thread, I would say that I was not careful enough about fountain drinks with ice and salads.

Only my minders know where the fountain Cola drinks came from.

The Salads were at an Expat kind of bar (Coco Park Bar Street in Shenzhen). I am not much of a salad kind of guy, however after a week of travel, a fresh salad starts looking mighty inviting.

EthernetWeasel (Erp!)

Or use the back of the chopsticks, turning them around, as is the custom.

I'm not visualizing how this really solves the issue, as any germs on the meat are now on the top of the chopsticks, which one is likely to touch and then move further down the chopsticks as one eats.

But perhaps I adjust my chopsticks more than the average person.

I'm not visualizing how this really solves the issue, as any germs on the meat are now on the top of the chopsticks, which one is likely to touch and then move further down the chopsticks as one eats.

But perhaps I adjust my chopsticks more than the average person.Probably so. My wife is Chinese and I learned this trick from her. I pick up the meat with back ends, but hold the chopsticks in the middle. I never wind up touching the back ends (or the front tips, for that matter).

I love to try some street vendors, especially the breakfast sandwich "Dan bing", but I always make sure I have them the eggs fresh in front of me.

What about even the vegetables that come with Peking Duck. Are they washed in tap water in even the best restaurants? Do most folks avoid all unpeeled raw veggies even when they are components of dishes?

What about even the vegetables that come with Peking Duck. Are they washed in tap water in even the best restaurants? Do most folks avoid all unpeeled raw veggies even when they are components of dishes?

Yes, assume all vegetables are washed in tap water. No restaurant, best or otherwise, is going to bother to wash with bottled or boiled water. Normally I avoid all unpeeled raw veggies, yes indeed--at least at about 95% of all establishments I visit and that includes 5*'s. There are a very few exceptions where I'll be so bold as to eat a salad or uncooked veggies outside my own home where I self-prepare under extreme sanitation procedures. I will, however, during Peking Duck dinners, use the lengthwise-sliced raw scallions, gambling that the amount of bacteria- (or other organism-) laden skin exposed per serving is very small. So far so good. If you are dining with people that won't think you're weird, you can do the old pour-a-cup trick with boiling water or tea, then dunk the suspect veggie (like a scallion bundle) in for a few seconds before assembling your mouthful to eat. I do a version of this (in the kitchen, not at the table) for my own veggies that need to be eaten raw and can't be peeled (scallions, celery, baby carrots, broccoli, etc.) I admit to also doing this in the USA when I prepare raw veggies.

What about even the vegetables that come with Peking Duck. Are they washed in tap water in even the best restaurants? Do most folks avoid all unpeeled raw veggies even when they are components of dishes?

I differ from jiejie here and feel that so long as it's at a semi decent restaurant, it's ok. From the street it's different. I always ate fruit off the street but anything with an edible skin I washed with soap twice. Then again that was with Chinese tap water.

But I also had local friends who peeled skin off things like apples and peaches. YMMV.

1) Fountain drinks and ice consumption at the western-branded restaurants like McD's and KFC are safe. Water supply does not come from tap but from bottled, and ice comes from purified ice factories. I will also use ice in drinks from "better" restaurants. In local dives and very small town restaurants, I buy canned soft drinks from the cooler, and use a straw. Cold beer is always OK. (Actually even warm beer is OK just yucky.) Bottled water is everywhere. Tap water is not OK anywhere (even though in cities like Beijing, it is treated, there are still too many potential breakdowns in the treatment and distribution process to trust it).

Is this the general consensus? Fountain drinks and ice from western restaurants (including fast food) are ok?

Is this the general consensus? Fountain drinks and ice from western restaurants (including fast food) are ok?I don't set foot in fast-food restaurants, either in the U.S. or anywhere else, so I can't say.

As for fountain drinks, you'll find Coke (and, quite often, Diet Coke) in cans just about everywhere in China. I happen to like watermelon juice, which is usually whipped with ice. Never had any problems at all. Similarly, never any problems with fresh scallions when eating Peking Duck, though I usually have that only in Beijing. I don't eat unpeeled fruits or vegetables unless they're cooked. One of my favorite winter street foods in Beijing is roasted yams. There's no opportunity to wash them (which kind of destroy the point of eating them, i.e. getting all that hot, yammy goodness) and, again, I've never had any problems.

Is this the general consensus? Fountain drinks and ice from western restaurants (including fast food) are ok?

Yes. Ice is not widely available, but it is, then it's generally safe.

Are ice machines available in western hotels like sheraton and hilton? We've traditionally loaded up there since our son has autism and loves his ice in his drink. If not, will hotels make such accommodations?

Are ice machines available in western hotels like sheraton and hilton? We've traditionally loaded up there since our son has autism and loves his ice in his drink. If not, will hotels make such accommodations?

You can't plan on availability of any North American motel-style self-service machines. But the staff should be able to bring you up a complementary bucket of ice from the kitchen, which should be safe to drink. The perfectly made little cubes or cylinders are usually fine as they are made in a machine using separate potable water supply, not tap water. Feel free to trouble them once or twice a day if you need it--one of the nice things about Asia is lots of staff around to do stuff for you. :-)

Usefull ice terms

Ice-bing
Ice cube/s-bing kuai
Ice water- bing shui
Add ice- jia bing

Is there any need to brush your teeth with boiled/bottled water?

I wasnt planning on it ...

Is there any need to brush your teeth with boiled/bottled water?

I wasnt planning on it ...

I have always done so. In Beijing I'll rinse mouth and toothbrush out with tap water then again with bottled. Maybe Shanghai also. Everywhere else, bottled for all rinsing operations.

I have always done so. In Beijing I'll rinse mouth and toothbrush out with tap water then again with bottled. Maybe Shanghai also. Everywhere else, bottled for all rinsing operations.

While I rinse the toothbrush with tap and then bottled, I never put the tap water in my mouth--bottled only. That said, I suspect there are many better ways to catch something bad in Beijing than the tap water in a good hotel.

Is there any need to brush your teeth with boiled/bottled water?

I wasnt planning on it ...

FWIW, I almost always use tap water for brushing teeth and rinsing my toothbrush, even in most Tier 3 places, and certainly wouldn't bother in a Tier 1 city. I've got a bit of an iron stomach, though, and also used the tap water in places like Bangladesh with no ill effects... :p

This is one of those things where you can quickly drive yourself mad if you worry about it too much: i.e. what about accidentally swallowing a bit of water in the shower? Or maybe that restaurant washed the dishes in tap water and some got left behind? I'd be more concerned about the dangers of Chinese traffic and the chronic "fog" that engulfs most cities than any bacteria in tap water.

I used to be paranoid about the need for bottled/boiled water for everything, but gradually moved to using tap water in Ningbo for washing vegetables (including for raw salads), and also for rinsing my mouth after brushing. After many months I haven't yet gotten sick from this, although food from a couple of small restaurants have given me two days in bed.

Usefull ice terms

Ice-bing
Ice cube/s-bing kuai
Ice water- bing shui
Add ice- jia bing

You're nuts- ni shen jing bing

;)

FWIW, I almost always use tap water for brushing teeth and rinsing my toothbrush, even in most Tier 3 places, and certainly wouldn't bother in a Tier 1 city. I've got a bit of an iron stomach, though, and also used the tap water in places like Bangladesh with no ill effects... :p

This is one of those things where you can quickly drive yourself mad if you worry about it too much: i.e. what about accidentally swallowing a bit of water in the shower? Or maybe that restaurant washed the dishes in tap water and some got left behind? I'd be more concerned about the dangers of Chinese traffic and the chronic "fog" that engulfs most cities than any bacteria in tap water.

I've always just assumed that the likelihood of getting sick from incidental consumption of very small quantities of non-drinkable tap water (i.e. from rinsed veggies, or brushing teeth) is very small, and I've never really worried about it. I've always thought that the body can generally handle most small-scale incursions from the bacteria in reasonably clean tap water, and that as long as you don't drink it, you should be fine.

I've been brushing my teeth in Taiwan tap water (which is supposedly unsafe to drink) for almost 30 years without any problems. And I've never hesitated to eat raw veggies and salads here. But they generally practice reasonable food prep hygiene here.

On a recent trip to India, however, I was quite concerned about the lack of basic food prep hygiene, and I avoided anything raw (except for fruit I could peel), and used bottled water to brush my teeth. But I still got very sick from the food.

You're nuts- ni shen jing bing

;)

Binlang xishi - well go to Taiwan to find that.

Binlang xishi - well go to Taiwan to find that.

:)

In some locations you don't have to worry about bacteria. It is the unsafe levels of chlorine that has killed all the bacteria you need to worry about.

In some locations you don't have to worry about bacteria. It is the unsafe levels of chlorine that has killed all the bacteria you need to worry about.

Or you could just not worry at all and have one less thing to worry about:D I've never even thought of using bottled water to brush my teeth, ect. and I'm still alive and kicking, there are also 1.2 billion people who do the same thing I do and most of them are doing OK.

Timely report by People Daily on the epedemic water polution.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90882/8145140.html

Maybe that was the only perk of staying in a mainland (non-chain) budget hotel- water coolers. Not to brush the teeth with, instead to prevent going out and buying a (refilled) bottle of 农夫山泉.