EL AL Matmid - segregation between men and women on El Al flight BRU-TLV

When I first read about this, I thought it was a joke (in fact a few years ago, there was a joke article in the Jerusalem Post about a personal "mehitzah" (separation barrier) that was supposedly available to screen off one's space from opposite-sex passengers on a plane).

This is not a joke, however. Haaretz recently reported here (http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/anglo-file/ultra-orthodox-jews-increasingly-refuse-to-sit-near-women-on-el-al-flights-1.420298) that "ultra orthodox Jews increasingly refuse to sit near women on El Al flights". I'm not quite sure whether the claim that this is becoming widespread is an exaggeration to sell more newspapers, but even if this behavior has happened on a few occasions, it is deeply disturbing.

This article (http://www.mako.co.il/news-social-news/Article-12b34fe42199531018.htm) includes a photo of the "mehitzah" (barrier) in question. A passenger who was interviewed in the article, noted that the motivation for the woman in question who set up the makeshift barriers was primarily to avoid seeing the movie screen, but it may have served to separate men and women as well.

And according to this (http://www.mako.co.il/news-israel/local/Article-87836734d5ab531018.htm) article, El Al has investigated what happened and will not allow it to happen again.

I recently flew TLV-JFK on LY and, very thankfully, did not encounter this. Has anyone else seen this happen, and if so, what did you do, and what should be done about it?

My wife flew LAX-DFW-LHR-TLV on an AA award ticket four months ago. The final leg was on El Al. A gentleman refused to let my wife sit next to him in Y. My wife moved to another seat and didn't make a fuss. I asked her if they offered her J, but it wasn't available apparently. I may not have been as understanding though I respect his reasons. He should have moved in my opinion.

Never seen that happen, though I've seen men refuse to sit next to woman and not only on LY.

My wife flew LAX-DFW-LHR-TLV on an AA award ticket four months ago. The final leg was on El Al. A gentleman refused to let my wife sit next to him in Y. My wife moved to another seat and didn't make a fuss. I asked her if they offered her J, but it wasn't available apparently. I may not have been as understanding though I respect his reasons. He should have moved in my opinion.

for all i care, if he refuses to seat next to a woman, he could sit on the wing, and enjoy the breeze.

for all i care, if he refuses to seat next to a woman, he could sit on the wing, and enjoy the breeze.

+1 You want to avoid me? Move to another seat, buy the seat next to you in economy (and make it clear that you MUST have the seat next to you, much like a passenger of size), or charter your own darn plane. If sitting next to a woman offends your religious sensibilities that much, public transportation may not be your best option, since the public in this day and age includes women. Sorry.

I have sat next to plenty of Orthodox men on El Al flights. I have also, on occasion--back in the days when I flew economy had men not want to sit next to me--so they asked the FA to switch their seats. I once was asked to switch my seat to accommodate a man who didn't want to sit in his assigned seat--due to it being next to a women. I asked where the seat was, didn't like the location and told the flight attendant no, and that was it! She found someone else.

Haaretz enjoys making mountains out of molehills. There have always been men on the plane who don't want to sit next to women and the problem has always been quietly and peaceful solved. I think Haaretz would rather there had been a big hoopla!

I have sat next to plenty of Orthodox men on El Al flights. I have also, on occasion--back in the days when I flew economy had men not want to sit next to me--so they asked the FA to switch their seats. I once was asked to switch my seat to accommodate a man who didn't want to sit in his assigned seat--due to it being next to a women. I asked where the seat was, didn't like the location and told the flight attendant no, and that was it! She found someone else.

Haaretz enjoys making mountains out of molehills. There have always been men on the plane who don't want to sit next to women and the problem has always been quietly and peaceful solved. I think Haaretz would rather there had been a big hoopla!
+1 on that.

Agreed - if you don't like your seat (for whatever reason), then YOU try and move. The other person has no reason to move.

as far as I'm concerned, if someone doesn't want to see a woman, or anything that offends their sensibilities, they ought to carry around a brown paper bag to cover their heads. They can get on the flight, and bag it.

I didn't want to sit next to you because some how they managed to put me right in the middle of your party. Or was it they didn't want me to sit in between them all. I forget... :D

Don't think anyone is going to get this post... :(

I've never posted in this forum, but the subject line caught my eye. :)

For El Al flights boarding in the United States, wouldn't U.S. law forbid such practices? El Al planes are not synagogues and El Al is not a membership religious organization. It's an entity that does business in the United States. I'd think U.S. law wouldn't stand for anyone saying, "I refuse to sit next to a woman." EU law too.

I'd think U.S. law wouldn't stand for anyone saying, "I refuse to sit next to a woman." EU law too.

Why not? I don't agree with my wife being asked to move, but I don't know of any law that keeps one from saying they refuse to sit next to a woman. If that were an actual rule, one could oppose their acceptance of it by flying with an alternate carrier.

I've never posted in this forum, but the subject line caught my eye. :)

For El Al flights boarding in the United States, wouldn't U.S. law forbid such practices? El Al planes are not synagogues and El Al is not a membership religious organization. It's an entity that does business in the United States. I'd think U.S. law wouldn't stand for anyone saying, "I refuse to sit next to a woman." EU law too.
If LY were to enforce segregation, it would violate both American law AND Israeli law.

People voluntarily segregating themselves is perfectly legal in the USA and the EU, though it's actually illegal on public transportation in Israel (according to the Supreme Court, even though there's no written law banning it). Whether LY falls under "public transportation" is something else

Why not? I don't agree with my wife being asked to move, but I don't know of any law that keeps one from saying they refuse to sit next to a woman. If that were an actual rule, one could oppose their acceptance of it by flying with an alternate carrier.

I think it would come under the same law that would keep someone from saying they refuse to sit next to someone of a certain skin colour.

I think it would come under the same law that would keep someone from saying they refuse to sit next to someone of a certain skin colour.
No. People are allowed to voluntarily segregate themselves by gender for religious reasons

I think it would come under the same law that would keep someone from saying they refuse to sit next to someone of a certain skin colour.

There's no law against saying that...just a lot of stares after.

I shouldn't have referred to it as "saying." Of course, one can utter those words, and if someone volutarily moves to accommodate their needs, I get that. EL Al cannot require anybody to move though, right? That would violate the law, I hope. I hope, also, with a U.S.-originating flight, they cannot designate a section as men-only or women-only.

I shouldn't have referred to it as "saying." Of course, one can utter those words, and if someone volutarily moves to accommodate their needs, I get that. EL Al cannot require anybody to move though, right? That would violate the law, I hope. I hope, also, with a U.S.-originating flight, they cannot designate a section as men-only or women-only.
LY requesting pax move to accommodate other pax who want to segregate would violate Israeli law, as well as US law (for ex-USA flights), Canadian law (for ex-YYZ flights), British law (for ex-UK flights), and European law (for ex-EU flights).

Has anyone traveled on El Al recently? If not, you will not have experienced the latest seating phenomenon.

In essence, it involves super-orthodox male Jews holding up the entire boarding process because, once they are on board, they find out that they have been allocated seats next to women who are not their wives.

The super-frum then go up to other passengers (who might have reserved their seats far in advance) and demand that they move to accommodate their religious fads.

I've merged and cleaned up a bit the posts on this topic after a similar thread was moved from the TravelBuzz forum to EL AL.

Thanks,
yosithezet
Moderator, EL AL forum

Has anyone traveled on El Al recently? If not, you will not have experienced the latest seating phenomenon.

In essence, it involves super-orthodox male Jews holding up the entire boarding process because, once they are on board, they find out that they have been allocated seats next to women who are not their wives.

The super-frum then go up to other passengers (who might have reserved their seats far in advance) and demand that they move to accommodate their religious fads.
I have never seen them hold up the boarding process, though I have seen issues once on board.

Also, this is nothing "new" or "recent" with LY

Has anyone traveled on El Al recently? If not, you will not have experienced the latest seating phenomenon.

In essence, it involves super-orthodox male Jews holding up the entire boarding process because, once they are on board, they find out that they have been allocated seats next to women who are not their wives.

The super-frum then go up to other passengers (who might have reserved their seats far in advance) and demand that they move to accommodate their religious fads.

1) Its not limited to El Al.
2) Its not new.
3) There are many types of people that would like to sit with each other. Elders, couples,friends, married folks, families, ill, religious (of all types), student groups, travel groups,sports teams, office workers etc. I am sure that all these occur everyday, on many airlines and FA's are equipped to deal with these situations. The situation is the same regardless who is asking. Some folks reserve their seats. Others, who may not be FF, may not be used to thinking about that area of their flight arrangements ahead of time.
Folks can ask, and you have the right to decline.End of story.

4) I think the term "religious fads" is offensive, and not really clear at what value it brings to the table or how it enhances your point.

I've merged and cleaned up a bit the posts on this topic after a similar thread was moved from the TravelBuzz forum to EL AL.

Thanks,
yosithezet
Moderator, EL AL forum

I demand all the posts made by women in reply to my posts to be moved also! :D

O.B.E.

O.B.E.

Anybody can explain what it means?

Anybody can explain what it means?

Nominating me for a knighthood, because of my hilarious post above?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire

I am not a frequent traveler on EL AL. But I have seen flight attendents asking politely passengers to switch places. When refused they politely approached the orthodox passengers and tell them that all they can do is politely ask people for consideration. They cannot resit people who refuse to do so.

This is OK to try to accomodate other passengers. I must say that flying via Newark seems to be a little bit a better experience than from JFK as there are less hasidic jews flying. It is a little bit more pleasant flight and you do not feel you are in the middle of a flying synagouge.

Holding off boarding and refusing to sit for a lack of a sitting arrangments, is deplorable and in any other airline these passengers will be arrested. I have seen on delta a flight attendent yelling at a hasidic jew to sit down because they are about to land and if not he will meet the police in Atlanta.

EL AL is really a considerate airline in that sense. I do not envy the flight attendants.

Erez

Women are allowed to travel by themselves?

Anybody can explain what it means?

Overcome By Events.