Air France Frequence Plus - [New] New long-haul Affaires product unveiled In June 2012

Happy passengers of the "business class" at Air France and Lufthansa! To attract them, or simply keep them, the two European giants invest hundreds of millions of euros in the redesign of their offer on board and ground. A rare conjunction of investments for customers who represent only 17% to 20% of passengers, but 50% of sales. This new upmarket should surrender the two European heavyweights at the highest global standards.

Lufthansa has unsheathed the first, unveiling last week, at a tourism fair in Berlin, its new business seats. A seat that converts into a bed of 1.98 meters, has a 15-inch screen and will appear in a few weeks on the new Boeing 747-8, before being gradually generalized to the entire fleet. Original V-positioning seats offer more distance between the passenger and therefore more privacy. Lufthansa has ordered no fewer than 7,000 seats, at a cost of 100,000 euros each.

It will however needed to wait until 2014 to get half of the long-haul fleet of Lufthansa, a hundred aircraft, to be equipped with these new seats. But it is only a part of a total 3 billion euros investment program to renovate both the aircraft and ground equipment. The company will inaugurate several new business lounges including this year in Frankfurt, Delhi, New York-Newark, and in the new airport Berlin-Bradebourg. Finally, Internet access in flight, already offered on some routes will be extended to the entire network by next summer.

Air France, for its part, should lift the veil on its plans for new business class in June. Earlier this year started the thinking of the modernization of the entire offer, to be continued until late March. However, work on business class seems well underway. To believe the CEO of Air France, Alexander Juniac, the result should be at least equal to the best. "We will do a little better than Singapore Airlines," he even declared recently to a group of journalists.

The specifications for the future business seat, for which the tender is in progress, provides, like its British and German competitors, a full flat bed. It will have the best video system "with a widescreen," says Alexander Juniac, who knows what he's talking about to have been CEO of Thales International, world leader in this market. Finally, the space between seats will allow passengers them to go back to their seats without having to climb over the neighbor.

This new business class will be installed gradually from 2013 on the Boeing 777-300. As at Lufthansa, the upgrading of service on board, which will also cover the first class, will be accompanied by the revamp of ground services, with again renovated business lounges and a greater use of new technologies.
Will this be enough there to compete with companies in the Gulf and Asia, ahead in the race for the service? The competition looks tough. Qatar Airways unveiled its new business class on Boeing 787. The company opted for the ultimate in-flight entertainment systems from Thales, with a 17-inch touch screen and Android, offering a thousand videos, internet, SMS and MMS in flight, all on the sofa beds of 2.03 meters long and 73 cm wide, arranged in rows of 1-2-1. Hard to beat.

Source: Les Echos (http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-secteurs/auto-transport/actu/0201951611661-guerre-des-business-class-entre-air-france-et-lufthansa-302443.php) (in French)

"We will do a little better than Singapore Airlines". This statement sounds very nice in my ears!

"We will do a little better than Singapore Airlines". This statement sounds very nice in my ears!
Yup. Looks very nice :)

We now just have to pray that it's not just words as it would mean a huuuuuge step forward for AF. The gap is quite big.
I would be very surprised to see AF going to 1-2-1 rows in J.

Yup. Looks very nice :)
I would be very surprised to see AF going to 1-2-1 rows in J.
I don't think there will be a 1-2-1:
"the space between seats will allow passengers them to go back to their seats without having to climb over the neighbor"

I don't think there will be a 1-2-1:
"the space between seats will allow passengers them to go back to their seats without having to climb over the neighbor"
Yup, ur right :)
At least, this is done. No 1-2-1.

I wonder if the new seat will be much like BA or AC?

On AC, for example, on the 77W (and others in their fleet), they have a 1-2-1 config, but all seats have direct aisle access and are "suites" after a fashion. The "2" are back to back suites, both facing the aisles from the center.

It appears to be the same seat as BA uses in their J seats, with some slight modifications.

If so, this is a departure from their current seat supplier. With the somewhat lukewarm reception of the NEV4, it wouldn't be a surprise.

But.... this IS AF. So, they could do something completely silly too.

I wonder if the new seat will be much like BA or AC?

On AC, for example, on the 77W (and others in their fleet), they have a 1-2-1 config, but all seats have direct aisle access and are "suites" after a fashion. The "2" are back to back suites, both facing the aisles from the center.

It appears to be the same seat as BA uses in their J seats, with some slight modifications.

It seems unlikely that AF would go for a BA configuration. Anyway, it looks like no more x-3-x configuration. ^

I don't think there will be a 1-2-1:
"the space between seats will allow passengers them to go back to their seats without having to climb over the neighbor"
Hum... maybe we can relate that to another surprising info.

Indeed we learned few weeks ago that the Affaires cabin on the 744s (that have started to be retrofitted) will be switched from 2-3-2 to 2-2-2. While NEV2 & NEV4 have the same size.

So even if it will be NEV4s and not the new seat on the 744s, it may announce the generalization of 2-2-2 configs on the whole fleet.
Just an idea :rolleyes:

Yup, ur right :)
At least, this is done. No 1-2-1.

I don't understand, SQ has 1-2-1 and you do not have to climb over your neighbor. But stacked seats or herringbones consume less space than SQ seats.

I don't understand, SQ has 1-2-1 and you do not have to climb over your neighbor. But stacked seats or herringbones consume less space than SQ seats.

Aren't SQ seats stacked (never flew SQ LH)?

Same as EK on A380 upper deck, no?

Instead of talking of one row 1-2-1, I think k we should say : 2 rows 2-4-2.

When I was on the EK A380, it looked like a pretty smart space utilisation to me. IMHO.

Aren't SQ seats stacked (never flew SQ LH)?
No. It is quite a traditional linear, front-facing 1-2-1 arrangement, albeit with markedly wider seats.

No. It is quite a traditional linear, front-facing 1-2-1 arrangement, albeit with markedly wider seats.

Yes, it's 1-2-1 on both the SQ 773w and the 380. With a lot of extra space on the upper deck of the A380. I'm happy to hear that AF's seat will be better. :) There are two things I don't like about the SQ seat. One is that it's too short for someone who is 183cm. The other is that it is quite hard for sleeping on. But the width is of course wonderful.

Foolish dreamers! :) He said it would be a bit better than SQ... but has not specified which SQ configuration he was referring to! What about being a bit better than SQ 772 long haul 2-2-2? (which is already better than AF 2-3-2).

Some recent developments (e.g. The new catering in the medium haul premium cabins) give some credibility that AF is serious about improving the quality of its premium offering. Not sure if ADJ would have okayed the NEO concept and seats.

Let's just hope they have a financial breath long enough to see the benefits of their strategy. Installing a new cabin is great, but it will take time to win back certain cuatomers that have turned their back on AF out of frustration with their offering and declining quality over the past couple of years. Plus, some other things will need to accompany that "charme offensive", most of all a more attractive FFP. There again, abandoning C2000 could lead to the introduction of a new top tier à la HON Circle - another step into the direction of premiumization.

Let's hope for the best. If AF goes in the right direction they'll have me back as a regular customer (I.e. they'll have around 150-180 segments a year from me instead of the current 12-15).

Foolish dreamers! :) He said it would be a bit better than SQ... but has not specified which SQ configuration he was referring to! What about being a bit better than SQ 772 long haul 2-2-2? (which is already better than AF 2-3-2).

That was the first thing that came to mind when I read the article above.

Yes, it's 1-2-1 on both the SQ 773w and the 380. With a lot of extra space on the upper deck of the A380. I'm happy to hear that AF's seat will be better. :) There are two things I don't like about the SQ seat. One is that it's too short for someone who is 183cm. The other is that it is quite hard for sleeping on. But the width is of course wonderful.

+1 ^

The SQ seats win hands down for lounging, but they are certainly not the best for sleeping imho. For me they are considerably too short in sleeping postion. (I am 1m95). The foot-box is too small and forces you in one position with difficulty to turn (especially if you are tall). And agreed for the hardness...plus...the NEV4 is flatter, yup, you hear me right. The SQ seat in sleeping position is perhaps more horizontal on average, but awkwardly consists of three planes with different angles, as was much criticized in this forum on older NEV generations.

I actually sleep better on the NEV4!

May I add to that that I don't like the claustrophobic BA-style-being-seated in-a-box setup and herringbone (for similar reasons) at all. I prefer a more open loungy space.

No. It is quite a traditional linear, front-facing 1-2-1 arrangement, albeit with markedly wider seats.

This is very much space consuming, isn't it?

EK layout on A380 looked very good and efficient to me:

- 100 % flat and horizontal, big box for the feet, wide screen, cosy feeling (no feeling one is in a box), private little bar and table.

Less space eaten means less cost so more hope for competitive pricing in biz. Still very good comfort.

Anyone doesn't like the EK layout? Would like to hear about the down sides.

I only flew once on this plane for a short flight, so I may have missed something (the other EK flights were with 777 with different layout).

Recent developments by JPA Design Consultants (http://www.jpadesign.com/transport)

These colors look very AF : http://www.jpadesign.com/transport/project/17 :rolleyes:

These colors look very AF : http://www.jpadesign.com/transport/project/17 :rolleyes:
I think this seat looks perfect :-), way better than the new seat of Lufthansa.

http://th3.bilder-hochladen.tv/rGtW6sbT.jpg (http://www.bilder-hochladen.tv/pic/rGtW6sbT/)
http://th3.bilder-hochladen.tv/qd0n5SL7.jpg (http://www.bilder-hochladen.tv/pic/qd0n5SL7/)

I switched all my long-haul (6-8 returns a year) to Star Allinace carriers two years ago when I first experienced a lie-flat, even United is way better than AF (flying backwards is fun).

I love the SQ bed (OK I'm only 177cm) the fold-down back is very easy to convert from seat to bed and vice versa and I find the mattress much comfier than when a seat maker tries to make the same surface compatable with both sitting and sleeping.

Now, that said, I don't find the service on SQ that good, and the food in AF J (from my memories) is definintely better - perhaps that is what he meant when he said AF would be a bit better than SQ...

This said if the photo above is really the future, well, maybe I'll be back - altugh the screen seems a little small...

As long as it is not herringbone - flew with MRs Fr on Thai with herringbone last month - 9 hours of not being able to talk to each other.

I switched all my long-haul (6-8 returns a year) to Star Allinace carriers two years ago when I first experienced a lie-flat, even United is way better than AF (flying backwards is fun).

I love the SQ bed (OK I'm only 177cm) the fold-down back is very easy to convert from seat to bed and vice versa and I find the mattress much comfier than when a seat maker tries to make the same surface compatable with both sitting and sleeping.

Now, that said, I don't find the service on SQ that good, and the food in AF J (from my memories) is definintely better - perhaps that is what he meant when he said AF would be a bit better than SQ...

This said if the photo above is really the future, well, maybe I'll be back - altugh the screen seems a little small...

As long as it is not herringbone - flew with MRs Fr on Thai with herringbone last month - 9 hours of not being able to talk to each other.

Looks like a crossover of herringbone and SQ seat to me. The foot box seems small. But otherwise, it could be a best of both worlds crossover.

This said if the photo above is really the future, well, maybe I'll be back - altugh the screen seems a little small...

The screen is 17'. I think this is really big enough. ^

(...) As long as it is not herringbone - flew with MRs Fr on Thai with herringbone last month - 9 hours of not being able to talk to each other.

For travelling 2 together, I think ERK A380 is better than in above pic.

Looks like a crossover of herringbone and SQ seat to me. The foot box seems small. But otherwise, it could be a best of both worlds crossover.

Indeed, wonder if the first row will have a full width seat rest like on SQ 77w?

The screen is 17'. I think this is really big enough. ^

17' or 17"? 17 foot might be overkill, but I agree that 17 inches is still plenty good!

For travelling 2 together, I think ERK A380 is better than in above pic.

Depends on why you're travelling together - if I'm with a colleague, give me the V, if I'm on my own give me herringbone, if I'm with Mrs FR (helas, less common) then normal parrallel's are good - this is probably the best of all - a fair degree of privacy, but can spend time with neighbour if so desired.

Forgot to mention in my earlier post - this actually looks a little like a toned down version of the current Premiere, in fact somewhat closer to current Premiere than current NEV4.3.2

If they've just leaked it here for our feedback - I'm in.

If they've just leaked it here for our feedback - I'm in.

If they fix a couple of other things (website, lounges, a couple of status benefits, employee preference over pax) then I'd be seriously tempted as well.

If they fix a couple of other things (website, lounges, a couple of status benefits, employee preference over pax) then I'd be seriously tempted as well.

It's interesting, I prefer SQ at the moment for my Far East travels. But...I think AF is very capable to win me back if they go for this seat or similar. Add some polishing of the soft product including the lounge soft product. And I am already happy.

Employee preference over pax is something I truely can't benchmark. Frankly, I realy can't present any facts regarding a situation where I think have been disadvantaged because of such. I also have no gut feelings about this, but if there is reason to have a gut feeling about it (Some seem to get that gut feeling from the famous chocolate bag clutchers in the galley that have been reported on the forum a few times) perhaps AF should implement some rules...

This discussion about a possible new flat bed in AF J amuses me. We had a similar one in 2009 as everyone was sure that AF would introduce a flat bed in 2010. And then we got a cheaper version of the angled seat, plus a few cost-cutting measures.
Now the element of speculation is this new seating plan on 747s which were to be retired and whose life is temporarily prolonged. With LH showing their flat bed, AF is basically the last major airline left with old-style pair/trio angled seats.
Getting into damage control mode, De Juniac is fighting for survival in the short-medium haul segment while periodically raising dreams in longhaul ("we will be better than SQ", "we will become the world's top airline"). His job is tough and I do not blame him for adopting the politician's verbiage from the world he comes from.
BUT, the only result is to get a few EF posters excited. As long as the new seat is still in discussion stage without a clear program to swiftly retrofit the fleet, this is just political blabla at its worse.
As Creber, , I find the whole AF J product very poor if I compare with the airlines I typically use (CX, SQ, BA, TG). Thirteen hours in AF angled seat is a certainty of back pains. But AF product is also well below par on: lounge (mediocre at most out stations and poor in CDG), pair/trio seats, TV screen (small) and avod (limited), service on ground (from website to airport) and in the skies (to me a major minus with "aristocratic" staff who dont work hard), mediocre wines. Food was above par, but so much cost-cutting....
The only redeeming feature of AF longhaul is its low pricing (at least from non-France). But I will not fly longhaul in an angled seat because of back pain, so even to US, I rather choose a US airline with flat beds than AF (and apparently, I am not the only one on TATL). Until AF offers a majority of solo flat beds on its longhaul network plus a better overall product, it will be hard for them to regain business pax except for the French corporate faithfuls. So let's wait 5 years and see.

Those 2 drawings were part of a "product update" presentation given to the AF-KL UK Sales force in February this year. Just do not ask how I got hold of it...;)

J seat is here (http://gallery.flyertalk.com/gallery/album74/Untitled_2)
P seat here (http://gallery.flyertalk.com/gallery/album74/Untitled2_first)

The Business class seat looks like JPA's Cirrus. AF is planning to follow what they call the "3F concept": Full flat, Full aisle access, Full privacy".
The Premiere seat is an interim version pending the potential introduction of a completely new design in 2014. It will offer better privacy (sliding screen), larger and reshaped headrest and backrest and new lighting.

Those 2 drawings were part of a "product update" presentation given to the AF-KL UK Sales force in February this year. Just do not ask how I got hold of it...;)

http://gallery.flyertalk.com/gallery/album74/Untitled_2
http://gallery.flyertalk.com/gallery/album74/Untitled2_first

The Business class seat looks like JPA's Cirrus. AF is planning to follow what they call the "3F concept": Full flat, Full aisle access, Full privacy".
The Premiere seat is an interim version pending the potential introduction of a completely new design in 2014. It will offer better privacy (sliding screen), larger and reshaped headrest and backrest and new lighting.

^
Thanks a lot for the pics! For unknown reason, I could not view them at first - only when I saw the source code of your message I could copy paste the following link
http://gallery.flyertalk.com/gallery/album74/Untitled_2

I wonder which of the 3 or 4 SQ Biz configurations that he was/is referring to, I know its not their top one.

^
Thanks a lot for the pics! For unknown reason, I could not view them at first - only when I saw the source code of your message I could copy paste the following link
http://gallery.flyertalk.com/gallery/album74/Untitled_2

Thanks Ajs.
I do not understand why the links to the 2 pictures only become active when I log-in.:confused:

The only redeeming feature of AF longhaul is its low pricing (at least from non-France).

I agree with everything you said except this.

In my experience Ex-Asia, I Consistently find J in TG, EK, EY and QR cheaper than AF.

YMMV

I agree with everything you said except this.

In my experience Ex-Asia, I Consistently find J in TG, EK, EY and QR cheaper than AF.

YMMV

I agree. But when comparing nonstops (e.g. CX & AF from HKG, or SQ & AF from SIN), AF J is considerably cheaper than the other better-quality alternative.

BUT, the only result is to get a few EF posters excited. As long as the new seat is still in discussion stage without a clear program to swiftly retrofit the fleet, this is just political blabla at its worse.


Not so sure.

Everyone has always said (might be false) that longhaul Business/First is the cash cow of the airline industry.

I, Platinum For Life plus two years, fly about 80 short/medium haul flights each year in Econonmy with Air France. Probably costing them more than they earn judging by what we hear. Zero long haul.

I, Star Alliance Gold, fly about 8 Long haul returns per year in Business, since three years never on Air France, because on Long Haul a lie flat seat with intimacy and space is really important to me for sleeping/working. United/Swiss/SQ/TG get the profit.

But - if AF came close I would be back - the 2E experience is better than Terminal 1 - by far. And their food and on-board service whilst hit and miss, is no worse than elsewhere.

I suspect that I am absolutely not the only one like me and that is why AF loses all their profit these days....

For the past few years AF J has been inferior and "improvements" that have been announced have fallen far short of improving anything. Just to hammer home the point I simply gave up on AF long haul J and fly now LX to Europe and SQ to Asia (and like CX as well). AF J seating is inferior to every other competitor I can think of: BA, LX, SQ, CX, even Delta.

So now we are to believe it's going to be better than those?

I racked up a huge number of miles on AF (2 million) with Platinum and Club 2000 but now will only fly them once every two years on a short haul to keep my miles, having shifted all my business to LX.

AF is behind in every area I can think of except food--no horizontal seat, only a few seats with direct aisle access without someone stepping over you (AB 340 middle sections), attitude of cabin crew, on time performance, and strikes.

Speaking personally it will take a massive change in the J product to win me back. This announcement is way to unspecific to be convincing.

Last few years? Honestly I can not ever remember a time when they were ahead of anyone except maybe one or two mediocre European players in Business!

Talking about premium classes, here is an interesting infography made by NYTimes in 2011 :

http://91.68.209.10/bmi/graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/newsgraphics/2011/1121-biz-CABINweb.jpg


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/11/20/business/inside-the-plane-by-seats-and-revenue.html

Talking about premium classes, here is an interesting infography made by NYTimes in 2011 :

http://91.68.209.10/bmi/graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/newsgraphics/2011/1121-biz-CABINweb.jpg


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/11/20/business/inside-the-plane-by-seats-and-revenue.html

Interesting indeed. But not very insightful or potentially misleading, because:


Revenue calculations are done on the basis of full fare tickets in those classes. Which is highly unrealistic
Assumes 100% load factor. Very unrealistic. Especially when one knows that AF has trouble filling its premium seats


To be fair I just saw that the graphic makes that same qualification in its footer

A more reliable datapoint is the one given to financial analysts: Lufthansa gets about 5% of its revenues from premium classes, Air France only about 37%. Don't know about Emirates.

Interesting indeed. But not very insightful or potentially misleading, because:


Revenue calculations are done on the basis of full fare tickets in those classes. Which is highly unrealistic
Assumes 100% load factor. Very unrealistic. Especially when one knows that AF has trouble filling its premium seats


To be fair I just saw that the graphic makes that same qualification in its footer

A more reliable datapoint is the one given to financial analysts: Lufthansa gets about 5% of its revenues from premium classes, Air France only about 37%. Don't know about Emirates.

Hi San Gottardo,

I also agree the chart is misealding. Plus, the aircrafts and destinations are not the same. It may be like comparing oranges and apples.

And congrats for the new handle by the way ;)

Interesting indeed. But not very insightful or potentially misleading, because:


Revenue calculations are done on the basis of full fare tickets in those classes. Which is highly unrealistic
Assumes 100% load factor. Very unrealistic. Especially when one knows that AF has trouble filling its premium seats


To be fair I just saw that the graphic makes that same qualification in its footer

A more reliable datapoint is the one given to financial analysts: Lufthansa gets about 5% of its revenues from premium classes, Air France only about 37%. Don't know about Emirates.

Unfortunately, the new San's fingers have lost agility. I assume that LH premium revenues are higher than 5%.
Reading the "transform" plan and De Juniac's interview, it seems that the investment in a flat business seat is delayed until higher labor productivity is achieved. Might take time.

Unfortunately, the new San's fingers have lost agility. I assume that LH premium revenues are higher than 5%.
Reading the "transform" plan and De Juniac's interview, it seems that the investment in a flat business seat is delayed until higher labor productivity is achieved. Might take time.

:D

Good to know my Far Eastern Editor-cum-Critic has a watchful eye on me.

The number my brain was thinking but my fingers refused to type is 53%.

Thanks for pointing it out (seems to indicate that you're actually the only one reading my posts :( )

Thanks for pointing it out (seems to indicate that you're actually the only one reading my posts :( )

Oh... we read them... but we're just not brave enough to tell you that you made a mistake... :D

Oh... we read them... but we're just not brave enough to tell you that you made a mistake... :D

:)

I agree. But when comparing nonstops (e.g. CX & AF from HKG, or SQ & AF from SIN), AF J is considerably cheaper than the other better-quality alternative.

On that count, you are absolutely right.

However, I have also noticed that AF likes to price F higher that CX ex HKG and SQ ex SIN. I've done this comparisons from time to time (just shopping) and it shocks me.

Some small quirky fact that might only interest me.

On that count, you are absolutely right.

However, I have also noticed that AF likes to price F higher that CX ex HKG and SQ ex SIN. I've done this comparisons from time to time (just shopping) and it shocks me.

Some small quirky fact that might only interest me.

Actually, it does interest me too. AF has priced itself out of the F market worldwide.
Only pax in F are pilots and family, government officials (from France and a few other countries), a few CEOs and jetset (LAX, JFK), and the occasional upgrade when Y is badly overbooked resulting in numerous upgrades to J, resulting in upgrade to F (J is rarely overbooked by rev pax). So AF F is basically

A side comment: AF F exHKG is priced over twice what CX charges for F exCDG: a silly joke. The net result is that AF has poor loads on its 11 weekly flights while CX has good loads on its 14 weekly 744. AF even moved one flight to a leisure config 772 with few J seats.

Actually, it does interest me too. AF has priced itself out of the F market worldwide.
Only pax in F are pilots and family, government officials (from France and a few other countries), a few CEOs and jetset (LAX, JFK), and the occasional upgrade when Y is badly overbooked resulting in numerous upgrades to J, resulting in upgrade to F (J is rarely overbooked by rev pax). So AF F is basically

A side comment: AF F exHKG is priced over twice what CX charges for F exCDG: a silly joke. The net result is that AF has poor loads on its 11 weekly flights while CX has good loads on its 14 weekly 744. AF even moved one flight to a leisure config 772 with few J seats.

It seriously makes me wonder how they implement their pricing policy.

Any update yet? It's already July! :(

Le plan d'investissement d'Air France pour remonter en gamme est colossal: près de 600 millions d'euros sur trois ans. La compagnie va rénover son offre de fond en comble. Ses lounges mais aussi ses cabines. La compagnie vient de finaliser l'appel d'offres pour équiper les premières et business classes de ses Boeing 777 et A 380 de vrais sièges lits plats. Enfin! C'est le français Sicma Aero Seat, filiale de Zodiac, qui a décroché le gros lot: 2000 sièges dont chacun coûte plus de 50.000 euros. Leur installation doit commencer fin 2013 et se poursuivre en 2014 et en 2015. Mais Air France a inclus une clause suspensive au cas où les négociations sociales n'aboutiraient pas…

Sicma Aero Seat from Zodiac was picked as the provider of the future seats. Rumours are between the Skylounge and the Cirrus seat... We'll see...

Cirrus:
http://www.sicma.zodiacaerospace.com/upload/images/mini/cirrus1302592759-N-90-500.jpg
http://www.sicma.zodiacaerospace.com/en/nos-produits/passengers-seats/business-class-seats/28/cirrus/

Skylounge:
http://www.sicma.zodiacaerospace.com/upload/images/mini/sk3-recto1284026781-N-90-500.jpg
http://www.sicma.zodiacaerospace.com/en/nos-produits/passengers-seats/business-class-seats/21/skylounge/


I like the Skylounge more, because I think its the better Seat if you fly with your partner.

Le plan d'investissement d'Air France pour remonter en gamme est colossal: près de 600 millions d'euros sur trois ans. La compagnie va rénover son offre de fond en comble. Ses lounges mais aussi ses cabines. La compagnie vient de finaliser l'appel d'offres pour équiper les premières et business classes de ses Boeing 777 et A 380 de vrais sièges lits plats. Enfin! C'est le français Sicma Aero Seat, filiale de Zodiac, qui a décroché le gros lot: 2000 sièges dont chacun coûte plus de 50.000 euros. Leur installation doit commencer fin 2013 et se poursuivre en 2014 et en 2015. Mais Air France a inclus une clause suspensive au cas où les négociations sociales n'aboutiraient pas…

^

For those who can't speak French, like me:

[Courtesy of Google Translate]

The investment plan for Air France back in range is huge: almost 600 million euros over three years. The company will renovate its offer from top to bottom. Its lounges but its cabins. The company has finalized the tender for equipping the first and business classes of its Boeing 777 and A 380 real seats flat beds. Finally! This is French Sicma Aero Seat, a subsidiary of Zodiac, which won the grand prize: 2,000 seats, each costing over 50,000 euros. Their installation should begin in late 2013 and continue into 2014 and 2015. But Air France has included a suspension clause in case the labor negotiations are not successful ...

Also discussed in the Transform 2015 thread, starting at this post:


http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-france-frequence-plus/1331620-alexandre-de-juniac-unveils-main-axes-transformation-af-merged-post18791053.html#post18791053

Yes I am sorry I didn't translate it. It was from an article from Le Figaro BTW

(...) I like the Skylounge more, because I think its the better Seat if you fly with your partner.

And if it is staggered properly (as on Emirates A380), you have single seats as well as two seats next to each other. Best of both worlds.

And if it is staggered properly (as on Emirates A380), you have single seats as well as two seats next to each other. Best of both worlds.

And it's less claustrophobic, too.

B777 & A380 ok, but what about the A330 - my favourite LH?

Also whilst those seats are nice (with a preference for the Skylounge - even if it makes you sleep very close to the aisle - looks a lot like the Swiss and United seats) I thought AF were looking at something better than anything else in the world etc. etc. rather than just something off the catalogue...

B777 & A380 ok, but what about the A330 - my favourite LH?

What do you mean? I don't see a problem with the A330?

Deleted

The pictures shown here of the AF seat are much closer to the United seat (unfortunately, as that means cramped space for your feet, less privacy and less storage space).

What picture? There are two completely different seats depicted here. And also, due to the merge with Continental you could be referring to completely different new seats again....
I reckon you are referring to the cirrus seat? The general consensus in this forum seems to favor the skylounge seat. Which deffo seems to be more spacious (if obviosuly a bit closer to your neighbour, but still massively private compared to NEV4).

I have the impression that nothing is definitive (and certainlhy not confirmed) yet on what seat it will be. Apart from that...herringbone-setup symply doesn't feel like it would be aproporiate for AF, imho. And okay I'll admit it. I simply don't like heringbone setups as they always seem to result in narrow and claustrophobic feeling configs.

There are basically three conventional flat seats: herringbone, reverse herringbone (as in Sicma Cirrus) and staggered. Then there are original solutions like on BA or SQ. All flat beds have some advantages/disadvantages and are more easy to install on some aircrafts than others. For example DL chose three different types of seats on its 767, 777 and 747.

- I am in favor of the concept of herringbones because they give more privacy and much less noise. But they are not all equal and depend on the aircraft as the angle (direction of the seat) varies depending on the aircraft and can be more or less narrow. TG 77W (leased from Jet Airways) are wide and airy, DL 777 seats are recent, rather wide and minimize some of the criticisms addressed to herringbone (e.g. one can easily talk with neighbor). But your head is always far from foot traffic and the seat is wide at the head.

- I do not like reverse herringbones for sleeping because your head is near the aisle traffic and foot stomping. Others like it because it is more "airy". I have flown extensively the herringbone (old) and the reverse-herringbone Cirrus (new) seats of CX and prefer the old one, although it is a bit too narrow. The Cirrus seat is already used by US Air, CX and soon AA. They are not identical though, even if the structure is similar.

- I enjoy staggered seats if I can select one of the "good" seats (basically the feet of a guy behind you come under your armrest. Some of us have experienced the "single" seat on LX A340 and they are great. Every other row on the left of the A340 has a single seat (with arm/foot rest on both sides) while the next row has two seats with an arm/foot rest between the two seats. Those "single" seats are reserved for Gold *A.

But all those seats are flat and SO MUCH better than the current pair/trio angled seats.

What picture? There are two completely different seats depicted here. And also, due to the merge with Continental you could be referring to completely different new seats again....
I reckon you are referring to the cirrus seat? The general consensus in this forum seems to favor the skylounge seat. Which deffo seems to be more spacious (if obviosuly a bit closer to your neighbour, but still massively private compared to NEV4).

I have the impression that nothing is definitive (and certainlhy not confirmed) yet on what seat it will be. Apart from that...herringbone-setup symply doesn't feel like it would be aproporiate for AF, imho. And okay I'll admit it. I simply don't like heringbone setups as they always seem to result in narrow and claustrophobic feeling configs.

I had mis-read the post that I quoted and realized that upon re-reading. I then deleted my post.

To then be more specific: the first picture resembles the UA seat. The seat I was in less than 24 hours ago was a United, not a Continental seat. The plane had a First Class cabin (CO planes do not have that) and its registration was N20?UA, so a plane that came from the United fleet. Whilst I found the seat comfortable to sit in and lounge in, I found my feet really cramped, and what I disliked most was that row of 4 seats next to each other in the middle block of the 777. That really looked like a can of sardines :td: Having said that, the picture of the Cirrus seat only *resembles* the UA seat, but the big difference is that the UA seat isn't diagonal to the cabin axis. Somehow the layout of the Cirrus reminds me of the pictures I have seen of the new Lufthansa seat (which I have never seen let alone tested in real life)

Thus, me like most others also prefer the SkyLounge seat, which indeed seems to be close to the model used by Swiss and Brussels Airlines. For some reason the Swiss seat looks less depressive, could have to do with the choice of colours.

To echo what was written earlier on: if AF wants to wow us with something better than the market, why come up with a seat that already exists elsewhere?

What do you mean? I don't see a problem with the A330?

The article states they are rplacing the A380 and B777 seats - but what about replacing NEV4 on the A330s (and A340d=s and B747s if they are still around)

TG 77W (leased from Jet Airways) are wide and airy

And make it qbsolutely impossible to talk to your Significant other, only option for any sort of communication is to sit on opposite sides of the aisle and make hand gestures....

To then be more specific: the first picture resembles the UA seat. The seat I was in less than 24 hours ago was a United, not a Continental seat. The plane had a First Class cabin (CO planes do not have that) and its registration was N20?UA, so a plane that came from the United fleet.

My last UA flight (on a 767) had a seat that looked very much the second "Skylounge" seat - I think it was a pure United bird (had First Class). Comfy, but faced backwards, which was a little strange. Definitely amongst the better Business Class seats, but nothing extraordinary....

foot stomping

I know exact what you mean! "... stomp stomp STOMP STOMP STOMP stomp stomp ... (cabin crew stomping by) :D

Anyway... my experience with herringbone is that it's alway so narrow, not good for lounging,


To echo what was written earlier on: if AF wants to wow us with something better than the market, why come up with a seat that already exists elsewhere?

I can imagine that they could include some very clever options and features which could wow us out. If not, it is indeed not going to be a revolution. However, if they go for the depicted standard skylounge seat (but please with better
AF worthy colours) it is definitely going to be a fine and comfy seat. Better still...something that indeed would kick the marketing-brilliant but actually flawed SQ seats behind!

They needed an upgrade... there setup the way it was sucked. If it even comes relatively close to singapore air it will be a welcomed change.

My last UA flight (on a 767) had a seat that looked very much the second "Skylounge" seat - I think it was a pure United bird (had First Class). Comfy, but faced backwards, which was a little strange. Definitely amongst the better Business Class seats, but nothing extraordinary....

The UA flatbed seat on the 767 is definitely not the Skylounge seat, particularly since the UA seat has pretty much no storage or table space (whereas the Skylounge seat has a whole console table on the side).

The Skylounge seat is most similar to the Thompson Vantage seats in use by Swiss, Finnair (on their refurbed A333s), Brussels Airlines, and Delta (on their 767s).

5...) The Skylounge seat is most similar to the Thompson Vantage seats in use by Swiss, Finnair (on their refurbed A333s), Brussels Airlines, and Delta (on their 767s).

And Emirates on their A380. :)