China - HELP: Best Man for wedding denied entry to China (PRC)

Dear FTers,

I'm hoping to get your assistance and thoughts with a tragic-situation-in-progress.

Short version: my friend is flying on DL to the PRC to be Best Man at his friend's wedding, was detailed for seven hours due to "paperwork problems", was denied entry to China and is subsequently at NRT awaiting his fate. DL's agents at NRT scrambling to figure out ... happened during this FUBAR situation.

Longer version: I've traveled extensively with this friend: he has traveled extensively speaks several languages in survival mode or better and is terrifically friendly and diplomatic under pressure. I was mystified by what transpired last night.

If I understand correctly, he checked into PDX for his flight to NRT, then got on an NRT-PEK flight. His paperwork was checked at both PDX and NRT, during which no issues were found.

When he got to the PRC, he was detained by Immigration, denied access to telecommunications, had his passport confiscated by law enforcement, his boarding passes confiscated by airline staff, escorted by three private security guards, two LEOs, and four "customer service reps", had his duty-free liquor confiscated for "security purposes" and held under observation for seven hours. His passport was returned when he got back to NRT.

What struck me as exceptionally odd is how this would happen to anyone, much less someone with a clean record (N.B. retired military veteran, former law enforcement officer and avid supporter of charitable work). DL's staff at NRT were completely confused by this and worked furiously to try to fix the situation.

Right now, he's waiting at NRT to figure out what to do: he believes the only thing that will "fix" this situation (and hopefully get him to the wedding on time) will be for DL to fly him to his destination in the PRC and for the PRC Embassy in either Vancouver B.C. or Seattle to resolve the visa problem.

Thank you, in advance, for any tips or thoughts on how to resolve this or how it will play out.

Regards,
-Pete

See here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/1324307-alaska-error-chinese-visa-requirements.html). Seems too much of a coincidence not to be the same person - except the reference there is to Alaska?

See here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/1324307-alaska-error-chinese-visa-requirements.html). Seems too much of a coincidence not to be the same person - except the reference there is to Alaska?

Thanks Louie-M - same person, perhaps this is the end of the road for this trip...

N.B. retired military veteran, former law enforcement officer and avid supporter of charitable work

Might raise flags in the Chinese system. Who knows.

Might raise flags in the Chinese system. Who knows.

Interesting notion...

Rather than something nefarious, it appears (from the other thread) that the traveller simply didn't have a Chinese visa. Having travelled to China a lot during my adult life, I can say from experience that the Chinese don't mess around when it comes to meeting the entry requirements.

OP, not encouraging cross posting but you might want to post in the China forum.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china-613/

There are quite a few China experts that may help you.

May be no Chinese VISA as mentioned. Either way, its pretty unlikely that any of the DL staff in NRT can help with anything. They can barely rebook during irrops, let along handle something this complex.

Very strange that he was allowed to board States-side. The DL agents at check-in AND boarding the plane always check my Chinese visa.

Not sure there is a DL-specific issue here, you may have more luck in another forum.

Does he have a PRC visa??? Americans need visa to enter the PRC with no question asked. If he was deported beacuse he didn't have a visa then i couldn't say anything else. If he had a visa, was he given a reason for denied entry (such as being on Chinese gov's black list?) If he had a visa was his visa revoked? you usually receive a letter explaining the reasons if your visa gets revoked at boarder. This has nothing to do with delta.

Need to know if he had a visa or not. If he didn't, there's no puzzle here. If he did, then an explanation had to be given at some point in these adventures. Feel like we're not getting the full story.

Btw, two of my three groomsmen plus an uncle were denied tourist visas to come to the US from India in Aug 2001 for my wedding. Fortunately my best man (and brother) had a previous US visa that was still good or I might have been standing alone. Yup, I'm still bitter.

Since he does not hold a valid China entry visa he was rightfully denied entry by PRC border control. (As per the cross-posted thread referred to in post 2).

If he is in NRT he should make he way to HKG ASAP and use the China Visa service there for a same or next day visa.

Since he does not hold a valid China entry visa he was rightfully denied entry by PRC border control. (As per the cross-posted thread referred to in post 2).

If he is in NRT he should make he way to HKG ASAP and use the China Visa service there for a same or next day visa.

Agreed. But if he is American, he cannot get same day.

OP, this is your best bet. It is probably your only bet. DL cannot help you. Talking to people remotely, like PRC consulates somewhere, cannot help you, at least not in time.

I could use a sizeable mileage run to help me hit DM this year. Tell the groom not to worry, I'm on my way and can fill in as his best man. I have good past experience, and can fax over references of weddings I have performed as best man.

Just gotta hop on ITA Matrix real quick and verify the cpm. I'll be intouch.

You can get a visa as others have mentioned in hong kong. I beleive 1 day wait.

But who is to blame more, you think the wedding party would have sent out a couple emails or txt that you need a visa to enter china. Do not leave until you get one. Or the flyer who did not know the requirements.

You MUST have a visa for China and if you are going to be leaving and returning on the same trip you MUST have the MULTI ENTRY visa.

The Airlines will let you get on any flight as far as I know. They check for a passport and have not had them check the visas. It is incumbent on YOU to have the correct visa.

It sounds like he did NOT follow the procedure and the Chinese do not make exceptions. PERIOD.

The Airlines will let you get on any flight as far as I know. They check for a passport and have not had them check the visas. It is incumbent on YOU to have the correct visa.

True that it is incumbent on the traveler to have the correct visa, but it is not my experience at all ever that the airline doesn't check for a visa. Quite the contrary. Since the airline can be fined for transporting a passenger to a country without proper entry credentials (and they pay for the return flight), most airlines are quite adamant about checking for visas. In fact, I know of more than one example where the airline did not allow boarding when in fact the passenger indeed had all necessary paperwork.

True that it is incumbent on the traveler to have the correct visa, but it is not my experience at all ever that the airline doesn't check for a visa. Quite the contrary. Since the airline can be fined for transporting a passenger to a country without proper entry credentials (and they pay for the return flight), most airlines are quite adamant about checking for visas. In fact, I know of more than one example where the airline did not allow boarding when in fact the passenger indeed had all necessary paperwork.

+1. With the exception of countries that offer visa on arrival, I have NEVER had an airline not check for a valid visa before boarding the flight from the US!

True that it is incumbent on the traveler to have the correct visa, but it is not my experience at all ever that the airline doesn't check for a visa. Quite the contrary. Since the airline can be fined for transporting a passenger to a country without proper entry credentials (and they pay for the return flight), most airlines are quite adamant about checking for visas. In fact, I know of more than one example where the airline did not allow boarding when in fact the passenger indeed had all necessary paperwork.

+1. With the exception of countries that offer visa on arrival, I have NEVER had an airline not check for a valid visa before boarding the flight from the US!

Ditto. And I get pre-trip reminders from DL too.

+1. With the exception of countries that offer visa on arrival, I have NEVER had an airline not check for a valid visa before boarding the flight from the US!

Funny, I don't recall them ever checking to see if I have a valid visa. They always check the passport but don't remember ever seeing them flip to the Chinese visa page. But perhaps they did.

Heading back there in a few weeks. I will watch for this.

Need to know if he had a visa or not. If he didn't, there's no puzzle here. If he did, then an explanation had to be given at some point in these adventures. Feel like we're not getting the full story.

Btw, two of my three groomsmen plus an uncle were denied tourist visas to come to the US from India in Aug 2001 for my wedding. Fortunately my best man (and brother) had a previous US visa that was still good or I might have been standing alone. Yup, I'm still bitter.
If the purpose of the trip is to participate in a wedding, I'm not sure that this would be a tourist visa. Did they apply for the correct category of visa?

True that it is incumbent on the traveler to have the correct visa, but it is not my experience at all ever that the airline doesn't check for a visa. Quite the contrary. Since the airline can be fined for transporting a passenger to a country without proper entry credentials (and they pay for the return flight), most airlines are quite adamant about checking for visas. In fact, I know of more than one example where the airline did not allow boarding when in fact the passenger indeed had all necessary paperwork.
IME the airline checks for a visa for China and similar destinations. This is why one cannot do OLCI and why the words DOCS OK appear on NW and now DL boarding passes.

IME also NW and now DL remind me whenever I call about a ticket to China, etc. that a visa is needed. I even had DL remind me that Singapore requires lots of time before the passport expires.

Not only DO airlines check IME.. but they are apparently quite paranoid about it..

My first China visit was to Shanghai.. staying less than 48 hours and with evidence of onward flights etc (so no visa required for Aussies) .. Dragonair staff in HKG didn't want to let us board AT ALL... kept talking about visas....:rolleyes:

Got sorted in time thankfully.....

I definitely was checked by KE in FRA for my e-visa to Australia (TA spent a lot of time searching on the computer to find it), and there was a very careful check of my Saudi visa before boarding my flight to RUH. I can't imagine that China should be any different.

Unfortunate incident for which responsibility lies entirely with the passenger, regardless of wrong information provided by the airline, and/or airline forgetting to look for visa at the time of check-in.
I am a bit puzzled by claims of extensive travel experience by both the passenger and the poster, especially in the light of the statement
"What struck me as exceptionally odd is how this would happen to anyone, much less someone with a clean record (N.B. retired military veteran, former law enforcement officer and avid supporter of charitable work). What struck me as exceptionally odd is how this would happen to anyone, much less someone with a clean record (N.B. retired military veteran, former law enforcement officer and avid supporter of charitable work). DL's staff at NRT were completely confused by this and worked furiously to try to fix the situation."
Passenger's character, military service, law enforcement service, support for charities has absolutely no relevance to the case here.
All governments, including ours, maintain that even possession of a visa is not a guarantee of admission. Since the passenger did not even have a visa, I don't see how the passenger can claim a refund.
Visa requirements is the first thing I look into before purchasing a ticket.

There is also a negative connotation for being American at least in my subjective feeling. I have made the experience that all works so much more smoothly (and cheaper!) when I use my European passport, instead of the American. My waiting time is just 2 days and instead of paying 90€, I just pay 30.

Not only DO airlines check IME.. but they are apparently quite paranoid about it..

My first China visit was to Shanghai.. staying less than 48 hours and with evidence of onward flights etc (so no visa required for Aussies) .. Dragonair staff in HKG didn't want to let us board AT ALL... kept talking about visas....:rolleyes:

Got sorted in time thankfully.....
Like you I have been obsessively checked when going to China. The one time I was transiting in China it seemed they weren't going to let me board even though I did have a valid Chinese entry visa and I wasn't even staying there. It was actually less confusing for the agents when I was staying in the PRC. IME DL has been over the top about checking it all of the time though. China is second only to Australia on being serious about entry IME. The vast majority of countries I've been to seem to have only a passing interest as long as you have the correct docs.

Fly into Hong Kong or Macau. You can get instant visa at the border crossings in Shenzhen, Ferry at Zhongshan or across Macau border at Zhuhai. It can be done instantly.

Fly into Hong Kong or Macau. You can get instant visa at the border crossings in Shenzhen, Ferry at Zhongshan or across Macau border at Zhuhai. It can be done instantly.
Man...that brings back memories. Flew into HKG to visit a friend...took the airfoil to Macau...and shelepped our golf clubs to the crossing at Guangzhou and got our visa while we waited. The golf.....welllll, that's another story.

I have nothing to help you out but wanted to applaud you for posting a short version.

There is also a negative connotation for being American at least in my subjective feeling. I have made the experience that all works so much more smoothly (and cheaper!) when I use my European passport, instead of the American. My waiting time is just 2 days and instead of paying 90€, I just pay 30.

The disparity in fees may be based on reciprocity between countries.

Americans can get a visa in two days at the Chinese Embassy in Tokyo using the expedited visa service.

Hi folks,

My sincere thanks for all of your comments and observations. I'll endeavor to post a more precise update as soon as I hear back from my friend.

Without a doubt, my friend really admired what the DL ticket agents at NRT tried to do: quite frankly, it struck me as darn near heroic.

He's back home in PDX getting some rest.

Best regards,
-PetePDX

Fly into Hong Kong or Macau. You can get instant visa at the border crossings in Shenzhen, Ferry at Zhongshan or across Macau border at Zhuhai. It can be done instantly.

Not for an American. Minimum one day wait, and you pay extra for that vs. longer waits.

The disparity in fees may be based on reciprocity between countries.

Indeed. In fact Americans used to be able to get a visa on arrival like Europeans, but the US made their policy on issuing visas to Chinese more restrictive, so China reciprocated.

The Airlines will let you get on any flight as far as I know. They check for a passport and have not had them check the visas. It is incumbent on YOU to have the correct visa.


I got grilled in ATL trying to board a flight to PVG, I had all my travel documents stating I was transiting in PVG and would only be there 4 hours (you get 48 hours without a visa in PVG, 24 hours everywhere else in the PRC) 4 different gate agents kept arguing that I was not boarding since I had no visa, even though I did not require one. Finally supervisor walked up, looked at my paperwork and 3 seconds later said sorry you can get on the plane.

Flash forward to PVG border control, said hello showed itinerary, said I was transiting on in a few hours, stamp stamp. goodbye.

PRC & SRV are notorious for STRICT visa requirements. No visa, no entry, automatic deportation no questions asked.

I've traveled extensively with this friend: he has traveled extensively speaks several languages in survival mode or better and is terrifically friendly and diplomatic under pressure.


Whilst I sympathise with your situation, I'm guessing that your friend never travelled extensively to anywhere that needed a visa. One of the first things I do when I get asked to go anywhere, is check what the immigration requirements are.

I'm also astonished that your friend was allowed to board the plane for China without a visa. I regularly travel there and can't remember ever checking in for a flight where they didn't scrupulously check that my visa was in order.

Agreed. But if he is American, he cannot get same day.

OP, this is your best bet. It is probably your only bet. DL cannot help you. Talking to people remotely, like PRC consulates somewhere, cannot help you, at least not in time.

In the past I have gotten a visa for China on the same day from the consulate in NYC. Is it possible to get one at a consulate/embassy in Japan?

In the past I have gotten a visa for China on the same day from the consulate in NYC. Is it possible to get one at a consulate/embassy in Japan?

How far in the past? The Chinese policy toward Americans changed roughly 7 years ago if I recall. I am not aware that it is ever possible for an American to get a same day visa. I certainly would not count on it.

How far in the past? The Chinese policy toward Americans changed roughly 7 years ago if I recall. I am not aware that it is ever possible for an American to get a same day visa. I certainly would not count on it.

Hmm. I dont remember. It might have been more than 7 years ago. I mail them in now but that time I went to the consulate and gave them my passport and forms and picked it up later in the day. But it could have been more than 7 years ago.

Whilst I sympathise with your situation, I'm guessing that your friend never travelled extensively to anywhere that needed a visa. One of the first things I do when I get asked to go anywhere, is check what the immigration requirements are.

I'm also astonished that your friend was allowed to board the plane for China without a visa. I regularly travel there and can't remember ever checking in for a flight where they didn't scrupulously check that my visa was in order.

I am really surprised by this as well. They have always checked mine.

Flash forward to PVG border control, said hello showed itinerary, said I was transiting on in a few hours, stamp stamp. goodbye.


Hope you gave that border control agent a smiley face. :D

Hmm. I dont remember. It might have been more than 7 years ago. I mail them in now but that time I went to the consulate and gave them my passport and forms and picked it up later in the day. But it could have been more than 7 years ago.

It's two days now for an expedited visa.

Missed atl-pvg flight 4 years ago because of visa check. Long story short, after three hours in line, finally got to an agent as the flight was leaving.

Last time I flew dl w/o status. I certainly don't miss that!

It's two days now for an expedited visa.

You can still do it in one day at CTS in HKG, I don't know about other places.

OP, not encouraging cross posting but you might want to post in the China forum.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china-613/

There are quite a few China experts that may help you....which is why the new home for this thread is now the China forum.

Regards,

Canarsie
Co-Moderator, Delta SkyMiles forum

It's not China's fault that he didn't properly prepare for his trip by securing a visa.

Its a pretty simple fix, just buy an onward ticket PEK to Hong Kong that leaves
in < 24 hours from arrival at PEK. That qualifies one for a transit without visa
as HK is a third country. If you overstay the 24 hours in China and have a legitimate
excuse that caused you the failure to depart on time, that's acceptable.

Assuming one has a passport from the follwing countries:

Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Korea, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and USA

Its a pretty simple fix, just buy an onward ticket PEK to Hong Kong that leaves in < 24 hours from arrival at PEK. That qualifies one for a transit without visa as HK is a third country. If you overstay the 24 hours in China and have a legitimate excuse that caused you the failure to depart on time, that's acceptable.

Actually, assuming that the DL flight arrives in the late evening, the better way is to leave the next morning to HKG and come back to PEK on the wedding day--assuming it's an evening event. Leave on DL the next morning.

Actually, assuming that the DL flight arrives in the late evening, the better way is to leave the next morning to HKG and come back to PEK on the wedding day--assuming it's an evening event. Leave on DL the next morning.

That would work, but would cost about 500 USD minimum in additional airfare cost. If you purchased a refundable PEK-HKG ticket, that's zero cost.

That would work, but would cost about 500 USD minimum in additional airfare cost. If you purchased a refundable PEK-HKG ticket, that's zero cost.

I'm referring to the OP, whose event wasn't immediate. And the last HKG flight (of the next day) would be in the early evening.

I'm referring to the OP, whose event wasn't immediate. And the last HKG flight (of the next day) would be in the early evening.

If the event wasn't within a day or so, better have a hospital receipt
to present to PSB exit officer, regarding your overstay.

If the event wasn't within a day or so, better have a hospital receipt
to present to PSB exit officer, regarding your overstay.

Oh yeah, and that excuses you from actually proceeding to a third country!

The last 3 Chinese visa's I have gotten have been in NYC consulate and the DC embassy. Did it all in one day with an extra fee. Drop off in the morning and pick up at 200pm. Last time I did it was about 14 months ago.

We once had to get an ad hoc Korean Visa for my son and flew to NRT and got a new visa from the Korean embassy in NRT.

They may not do one day turn-around service in another country for a non-resident, but in theory upon getting to NRT you could go to the Chinese Embassy and apply for a expedited visa.

Short Version: Passenger screws up, doesn't do homework to check requirements, doesn't get visa, denied (correctly) by Chinese authorities and sent back to origin correctly (NRT). Fail to airline also for not checking visa status in either USA or NRT.

Longer Version: Poorly played by DL in NRT, though not obligated to do anything but send him back to USA, their (or their airline partner's) lack of visa check got this whole ball rolling in the wrong direction. Options for recovery existed which were:
1) Put him on flight to Hong Kong, no visa required for entry. Rush Chinese visa processing there with 1-day service. Should have been able to make wedding. Compromise would have been DL flies him to HKG free but he pays for his overnight there and for flight HKG-PEK (which is not insignificant expense, to be sure) Japan is not the easiest or quickest place for the hurried traveler to get a Chinese visa and for the non-resident foreigner, requires services of a hard-to-locate agent.

2) Replan his flight schedule to get him to PEK within 24 hours of wedding, nice gesture would be no extra cost. Passenger then purchases a separate ticket from PEK to 3rd country (ICN probably cheapest) to leave within that 24 hours of arrival. DL rebooks his return from ICN-NRT instead of PEK-NRT.

On this thread but particularly on the linked thread (Alaska Airlines) there is a lot of BAD INFORMATION floating about on China, visas, TWOV. Names will not be named to protect the guilty. Please refer to THIS THREAD (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china/1204486-please-read-first-china-board-faq-most-important-threads.html)for clarity.

Problem was OP should have first posted on China forum.

The errant flier would have been enjoying fireworks at the wedding
and had a great China experience.

Right now, he's waiting at NRT to figure out what to do: he believes the only thing that will "fix" this situation (and hopefully get him to the wedding on time) will be for DL to fly him to his destination in the PRC and for the PRC Embassy in either Vancouver B.C. or Seattle to resolve the visa problem.


I know it's been implied, but can you confirm that your friend didn't have a PRC visa? Or perhaps, he had a Japanese passport (no visa required for stays up to 15 days).

Was he planning on availing of Visa on Arrival? Others might think I'm crazy for asking this, but PEK does have the ability to issue arrival visas in very special cases (e.g. death of family member, technical expert coming to perform time sensitive work). Basically, if either the bride or groom happened to be extremely well connected, it would not shock me that if they the ability to arrange VOA documents for the OP that would have satisfied Delta's check-in agents. (I used to fly DL/NW between PDX and China via NRT quite a bit, and the people there always scrutinized my "papers" pretty thoroughly).

While I realize that it's too late for us to offer useful advice, I'd be interested in getting more details because we might be able to incorporate the lesson learned into our main visa thread.

Unless I read too fast, no confirmation that friend had or did not have visa.

If he didn't have, I agree with all posters, clearly the friend's fault.

If he did have, we need more info.

The same incident posted by someone else referred to in post #2 stated NO VISA.

The same incident posted by someone else referred to in post #2 stated NO VISA.

I see. In this case, the OP's friend is 100% to blame for his lack of due diligence. The vast majority of "experienced travelers" know that visiting China requires visas and/or have the means to use Google.

I see. In this case, the OP's friend is 100% to blame for his lack of due diligence. The vast majority of "experienced travelers" know that visiting China requires visas and/or have the means to use Google.

Due diligence is an expert opinion, google doesn't constitute an expert...but the carrier does. With visa on arrival , transit without visa, intl transfer 24 - 48 hr, leave airport, airside transfer...its confusing.

If the flier claims he was told he could get a visa on arrival by the carrier and was denied boarding at the onset, it would be difficult to prove the airline was at fault. However in this case the passenger was allowed to board with no visa and also made a stop in Japan before being denied entrance to PRC.

Cleary the carrier's employees were negligent and the passenger should at least get money and miles refunded.

Due diligence is an expert opinion, google doesn't constitute an expert...but the carrier does. With visa on arrival , transit without visa, intl transfer 24 - 48 hr, leave airport, airside transfer...its confusing.

If the flier claims he was told he could get a visa on arrival by the carrier and was denied boarding at the onset, it would be difficult to prove the airline was at fault. However in this case the passenger was allowed to board with no visa and also made a stop in Japan before being denied entrance to PRC.

Cleary the carrier's employees were negligent and the passenger should at least get money and miles refunded.

I agree that the carrier was at fault for letting them on the 'plane, but that means they should be fined. The pax was at fault for not finding out about visas -- and are due no refund imo, as painful as that is.

tb

According to DL CoC pg 25 they and other carrier have no liability regarding visa issues no matter what any emplyee or agent says or writes. As usual passenger SOL.

If the flier claims he was told he could get a visa on arrival by the carrier...

Which wasn't exactly the case. DL was the carrier, but it was AS that told him about the VOA. Normally this wouldn't become the trouble that it did, but DL didn't check twice (at check in, at final China-bound flight).

Which wasn't exactly the case. DL was the carrier, but it was AS that told him about the VOA. Normally this wouldn't become the trouble that it did, but DL didn't check twice (at check in, at final China-bound flight).

Doesn't matter. Flier not entitled to any compensation and maybe subject to additional financial penalties for return flight.

Oh yeah, and that excuses you from actually proceeding to a third country!

Technically.....maybe
Practically....probably

I'm also very surprised NRT didn't catch it. I used to fly NW through NRT all the time, and I remember they made massive queues while they checked peoples visas at the boarding gate.

It's quite surreal to stumble across a long conversation about your life on the internet, but since it's here I thought I would clear up a couple of the conversation points and let you all know what happened in the aftermath.

Ok, for starters, yes the two posts are related. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=18228594 and http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/travelbuzz/1324307-alaska-error-chinese-visa-requirements-4.html) One was started by my girlfriend and the other by a friend of mine, and they didn't know each other was doing it until after.

Here's the timeline:

First I went to book a round-trip ticket From Portland-PDX to Beijing-PEK via Seattle-SEA using Alaska Airlines award miles (Alaska was the PDX-SEA leg both ways, and Delta as their partner was the SEA-PEK leg both ways). They were not letting award tickets be booked online for some reason, so I had to call the reservations number and do it the old fashioned way. While on the line with the booking agent, I asked what the visa requirements were, and the agent said I would need to bring photos to with me for the visa process, but they would enter me in the system. That was probably bad phrasing on the booking agent's part, because it sounded to me like they were going to enter me into the prospective traveler system, which is how I got my Vietnamese visa last year (email ahead, issue on arrival).

Then I got the confirmation email from Alaska, with a link for international travel that listed all their visa requirements, which basically said "Americans must have a visa" and then 15 pages of exemptions that do not apply to me (diplomatic ones, various treaties, etc).

Now, "having" a visa is no big deal. I have had well over 100 in my time. Pretty much every border I have ever crossed issued me a visa on the spot. I once got a Visa for The Netherlands so I could go to a vending machine that was on the other side of the airport's passport control line. A visa is a stamp in your passport, and unless it's some complicated one like diplomat, student, fiancee or work visas, you just get your passport stamped and move on.

I then checked the Chinese official website (but only the English language section; I don't speak Mandarin) and it again said ... several things. I didn't need a visa if I was staying six days and joining a tourist group (I was joining at least one, but not for the whole six days), but otherwise I had to have a visa. Didn't say I would not be able to get one at the airport like most other countries.

Reading wayyyyyyy down the website, it says you can not mail a visa application, but must do it in person (no appointment needed, same-day service available) or you may entrust someone else or a travel/visa agent to submit your application at the visa office. Digging around long enough shows there are several other ways to get visas at other airports in China, but nothing on PEK. Well, ok.

So there I have my airline telling me I need a visa but not saying anything about China being a country you can't get one at the airport, and China saying I need one and having various ways to get one but not specifically mentioning PEK. But PEK is their national capital, and they do have a HUGE visa application office that is before passport control in Terminal 2 (which I was flying in), and my airline had said something about getting me in the system which sounded like that "travel/visa agent" thing which I had used before in a communist Asian country ...

So I went to the airport to check in, and the ticketing agent took my passport scanned it and spent a good amount of time typing, and then stamped my boarding pass with something like "international travel documents ok." and I boarded the Alaska flight to Seattle.

In Seattle, a Delta Airlines representative took my passport, scanned it, looked up a bunch of stuff, asked me some questions about my trip to China (duration, where I was going, etc) and then read from my passport while typing into a computer, at which point another boarding pass with "International Docs - OK" printed on it (exact wording may differ, for reasons you will see below).

Then I got on the airplane, went to China, walked by the very large but completely understaffed visa application offices, visa photo rooms, quarantine interview rooms, visa interview rooms and the inspection station (all understaffed) and went to passport control.

The police at passport control called over a Delta Airlines rep and between them told me I was unable to enter the country. Both were polite at that point and the Delta rep offered to let me use his local-only telephone to call anyone I knew in China (all my friends were arriving the next day, so no use). Then I was placed in the "immigration waiting area" which is 8 chairs with a rope around them, and the police and Delta reps kept trying to figure out what was going on. They were talking about giving me a 24 hour visa so I could go to my hotel and take a shower, and talk to the consulate in the morning (it was midnight at this point), or having me fly to another Chinese airport to get a visa and fly back, and asking me if I had any friends in Beijing who could come to the airport to get me (I still don't know what they meant by that). The police offered to basically let me go anywhere in the airport I wanted as long as I had one of them walking with me as an escort.

A Delta supervisor and a police officer with three rank clusters on his shoulder came over and asked more questions, asked if I had needed food and asked if I had money, at which point someone showed him the boarding passes.

The Delta supervisor FREAKED OUT at that point. He started swearing, yelling various insults at Americans in general, his face was red, he banished all the other Delta people from the area and they were all replaced with grim-faced people in suits (with Delta nametags, but in Chinese script). The police added a couple people to the mix (still polite, but not happy) and the whole "waiting area" was moved to some kind of side hall and I was held there by a rotating group of police and Delta reps. My passport was taken as were all my travel documents, and I was not allowed to call my consulate. I was not even allowed to talk to a Delta ticket agent, just guards and this supervisor.

I want to point out that I was very, very polite this whole time. I'm a military veteran and a police veteran and both those jobs basically involve getting yelled at a lot without being allowed to react. I didn't argue, I didn't yell back, I merely asked what options I had and asked if I could call my consulate.

At some point, a Chinese police officer came over when everyone else was standing a little bit away from me, and she handed me a stack of photocopies of my passport and boarding passes, and asked me to sign them (there was no other text, or I would not have signed. It was literally just the boarding passes and passport). I did, and she whisked them away as if trying to hide them from the others. Shortly after that, the Delta supervisor took all my original documents to his office, telling me he had to "make a report," at which point they were never seen again. Each person I asked said another person had them. My detention area was two rows of four plastic chairs facing each other about ten inches apart.

The Delta supervisor came by to yell at me a few more times, and then it was back to a new set of guards every hour. I was allowed to use the toilet and drink water, but that was it (no phone, no food). Then I was shown my new deportation boarding passes but not allowed to touch them. I was kept in the holding area until the final boarding call despite asking if I could go to the airplane when they started boarding (there was an internet kiosk at the gate as well as payphones). A Delta agent and a police officer escorted me to the airplane door and gave my passport (without any of my receipts and travel documents and personal papers) to the cabin staff, and a few hours later I was in Tokyo-Narita.

Once there I was free. I had my passport, there is wifi, computer and phone kiosks and so on. It's actually one of my favorite airports and I have been through there several times. The Delta staff there tried really hard to find a way for me to get back for the wedding, but basically there was nothing they could do that would not take me a couple days and cost me at least $1,500 (that's down from almost $3,600 they originally wanted) in airfare and hotel, which even if it was an affordable amount would still have gotten me there shortly after the wedding. I boarded the next flight to PDX.

So, that's it. I checked several times on my visa, two different airlines at two different airports in the USA checked my visa, and the Chinese police were at least willing to let me get a temp visa into the city to go to my hotel and maybe visit the U.S. Embassy to see if they had any advice.

But once Delta Airlines staff realized they were going to be on the hook for my repatriation (plus a 50,000Yuan fine according to the video they had playing in the office that scrolls through various Chinese laws in English) plus whatever else pissed them off, they had me locked down and out of sight until they could get me out of the country. The police seemed more to be following Delta's lead than the other way around, and I have no way to know what the Delta people were telling them (again, Mandarin, not one of my languages). The guard shifts were a mix of police, airport security and Delta staff, never less than 2, usually around 5 guards on me at all times.

I called Alaska (who originally booked it all and was the rewards program I paid for all this with) and they issued a complete refund (minus the taxes, of course) and an apology. I have yet to call Delta to complain about their supervisor swearing at me for most of his shift, making my documents vanish, getting me thrown in a makeshift jail all night and not letting me call my consulate.

Because I honestly don't know what to say to them.

Since I was being held without any kind of access to communication, I could not look up stuff like this web forum, or call my embassy, or search for flights to other airports. The police told me about the Macau option but I had no way to book a ticket there. The earlier Delta agents told me about the Hong Kong option, but said they weren't sure it would work and could not tell me where the embassy was located. I had a Lonely Planet guide for Beijing, and (again only with the earlier group) one guy who was willing to use his walkie-talkie to try to ask advice from other people in Mandarin.

But no phone, no message board, no internet, no printed flight schedule, no newspaper. Makes it damn hard to come up with an exit strategy.

I'm glad you showed up to share what happened in person. Comments, perhaps that may help others avoid the same pitfalls:

1) I honestly do not know where you went so wrong on the visa thing. You are the first I've ever seen get this China visa thing so completely wrong. What is telling is your comment about "visas being no big deal" and in most of your past situations, you managed to get one on arrival, set your entire mindset going down the wrong track. Then you went to a Chinese website (never the best idea) assumed that because they didn't mention not being able to get a visa at the airport, that you would be able to. Finally, whatever "digging around" you came up with about being able to get visas on arrival at Chinese airports was misinterpreted by you (that is only for very special circumstances not your situation), and not seeing anything on PEK (same applies as other airports), you continued to ASSUME that you could VOA. This is despite nearly every resource--official and unofficial--out there calling out the contrary. You seemed to see what you wanted to see, and ignore what you didn't want to see, or what seemed to be burdensome.

There is no nice way to put this: THIS IS AN EPIC FAIL ON YOUR PART! Ultimately costing you a chance to be at this wedding, and having an unpleasant experience. Fortunately, sounds like you didn't end up too much out of pocket in the end. Consider that last a lucky break.

2) I am absolutely floored that the first ticketing agent (I assume Alaska) didn't catch this right there, and stamped your boarding pass as "international documents OK". THIS IS AN EPIC FAIL ON THEIR PART! And also how the Seattle Delta agent didn't catch. And the NRT agent. So many opportunities to nip this in the bud before arrival in China, and either abort the trip or go for a real-time recovery strategy. However, that doesn't absolve you from the initial visa error.

3) I note that the Chinese officialdom were actually nice to you when you arrived without visa. However, I'm sure you misheard about them possibly sending you to another Chinese airport to get a visa, since there is no such thing for you. It's possible somebody discussed sending you to Hong Kong which requires no visa itself, but in which you could get a Chinese visa then return.

4) I further note that it was the Delta officer not the Chinese police that was the Meanie. The yelling and swearing on Delta supervisor's part was unnecessary but unfortunately for you, was not illegal either. And understandable, possibly because he realized his airline was about to get a big fat fine from the Chinese. At that point, his demeanor was setting the tone for everybody else. Your read was correct on that. However, the Chinese are required to keep you in holding/detention at the airport until the outbound flight, whatever you heard about being cut some slack on hotel, etc. was not likely to happen. In the end, no Chinese official would have been willing to put his signature on the permission that allowed you out of the airport.

5) At least you stayed polite and cool under fire, no doubt assisted by your past training. At that point, confrontation would have got you nowhere and would have made things worse.

6) A bit pedantic, but your process was a "refused entry" not a deportation, since you were never allowed into China to begin with. Sounds like the process of keeping you in a holding pen and then escorting you to the door of the outbound plane went standard operating procedure.

7) The documents-vanishing-temporarily thing is standard, they were using to process the various Chinese and Delta reports that have to be submitted for these situations as well as your new flight arrangements/boarding passes for your exit. Even if you had been allowed, calling the US Embassy would have got you nowhere, I can tell you that right now. That bunch wouldn't have been sympathetic to this type of self-inflicted screw-up, and in a practical sense, could do nothing to intervene anyway. Remember that you were in an interesting limbo situation, since you had not been officially admitted to Chinese soil. And you were not being accused by the Chinese of a crime or under formal arrest, though you were denied entry and appropriately detained for lack of proper documentation.

Again, you went wrong from the very beginning with your assumptions and your mindset. At least Alaska Airlines in the end, made good for their compoundment of the error. I think at this point, you should drop it, walk away and not expect apologies from Delta. In fact, I don't think you are owed any apologies from them, more like you and Alaska Airlines should apologize to them instead. I hope Delta is recovering their Chinese fine from Alaska Airlines also.

ETA for all readers: DO NOT GET YOUR VISA ADVICE FROM AN AIRLINE STAFF MEMBER AND DO NOT ASSUME THEY ARE DOING ANYTHING ON VISA MATTERS ON YOUR BEHALF.

1. Sorry this happened. Especially to a vet and ex-cop. But this is a classic case of traveling without requisite information.

2. The Delta folks sound like they acted highly unprofesionally trying to cover their 屁股; I would complain formally to DL.

3) Never, but never, trust airline personnel with the last word on visas! (Basically, YepThatsMe! should have been prevented from flying before departing the USA.)

Some useful visa resources:

Link (http://www.delta.com/planning_reservations/plan_flight/international_travel_information/visa_passport_information/)to Delta's connection to timaticweb.

Link (http://travel.state.gov/visa/)to U S Department of State (USDOS) visa requirements pages

Link (http://www.travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1089.html#entry_requirements)to USDOS page on China visa requirements for U S Citizens

Link (http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/ywzn/lsyw/vpna/rap/t900567.htm)to Embassy of the People's Republic of China in the United States of America.

And if one has not experienced visa difficulties, enjoy Russia, because it is far worse (and for veterans, you are pretty much forced to lie, because I am *$!!& not going to tell them where and how I served, etc.)

With the knowledgeable people (particularly the capable Ambassadors) in this Forum, I'd suggest keeping the discussion going in this Forum. I can;t imagine anyone more knowledgeable and aware than jiejie on these issues.

I'm glad you showed up to share what happened in person. Comments, perhaps that may help others avoid the same pitfalls:

1) What is telling is your comment about "visas being no big deal" and in most of your past situations, you managed to get one on arrival, set your entire mindset going down the wrong track.

-- While I entirely admit this was an epic fail on my part, and there were many things I did wrong, I don't think using past experience as part of a way to figure out current situations is a practice I would normally consider a bad idea. ---

Then you went to a Chinese website (never the best idea)

-- Why is that not a good idea? It's their country, I think many people who are not experienced with China would assume that the Chinese government would be a good place to get information about the Chinese government's procedures. --

assumed that because they didn't mention not being able to get a visa at the airport, that you would be able to.

-- No, I was assuming I would have to do more. I was at the website trying to find out what I would have to do in advance. I was specifically trying to find more hoops to jump through, the page I found didn't list them. --

Finally, whatever "digging around" you came up with about being able to get visas on arrival at Chinese airports was misinterpreted by you (that is only for very special circumstances not your situation), and not seeing anything on PEK (same applies as other airports), you continued to ASSUME that you could VOA.

-- Again no. I was not assuming I could VOA, I was trying to find out what the process was, and was unsatisfied with the information I got from the airline (that it was taken care of and I could VOA) and the government (that I just had to have a visa) that I went looking for some other information that would be more difficult. I was, at first, actively LOOKING FOR MORE BURDEN. I tried, I failed. Of course, now that I am back, I have found a TON of information to the contrary, but now I know a lot more about specific problems to look for --

2) NRT was on the trip back (and they were awesome). Alaska was the first document check in PDX, Delta was the second document check in SEA.

3) Hong Kong and a couple others were mentioned, but it was moot as I could not talk to a ticket agent.

4) And yet, there he was, offering me a transit visa that would have let me out of the airport. He explained that I would have to take a taxi of their choosing, the hotel would have to call them when I got there (though, as I understand it, that's sort of standard for foreigners in China anyway, right?) and would have to keep to a very particular schedule

5) Yeah, I have yet to see any situation that was improved by yelling or rudeness. I was making it a point to not even frown.

6) "Refused entry" sounds right to me. Delta and the police used the term "deport," but that may have been just because it's more easily understood or commonly used.

7) The documents didn't vanish temporarily, they vanished permanently. And I don't (ever) expect my embassy to fix a problem, but they would at least have been contact with the outside world. Five minutes on the telephone with ANYONE would have drastically improved the situation. As for walking about the airport, when I had police guards, they were willing to let me go anywhere on the "out of the country" side of Passport control as long as they were with me. Pity the shops were closed. When they went to a police+Delta guard setup, that stopped. The sad thing is that I didn't find the pay phones or internet kiosks until after that point.


I hope Delta is recovering their Chinese fine from Alaska Airlines also.


Delta did exactly the same thing Alaska did though. All other issues aside, Delta looked through my passport and declared my travel papers to be in good order too, just like Alaska. I could see if it Delta simply trusted Alaska's ticket agent and got burned, but Delta's ticket agent did exactly the same thing. I don't think Delta has a case against Alaska here.

I'm glad you showed up to share what happened in person. Comments, perhaps that may help others avoid the same pitfalls:

1) I honestly do not know where you went so wrong on the visa thing. You are the first I've ever seen get this China visa thing so completely wrong. What is telling is your comment about "visas being no big deal" and in most of your past situations, you managed to get one on arrival, set your entire mindset going down the wrong track. Then you went to a Chinese website (never the best idea) assumed that because they didn't mention not being able to get a visa at the airport, that you would be able to. Finally, whatever "digging around" you came up with about being able to get visas on arrival at Chinese airports was misinterpreted by you (that is only for very special circumstances not your situation), and not seeing anything on PEK (same applies as other airports), you continued to ASSUME that you could VOA. This is despite nearly every resource--official and unofficial--out there calling out the contrary. You seemed to see what you wanted to see, and ignore what you didn't want to see, or what seemed to be burdensome.

There is no nice way to put this: THIS IS AN EPIC FAIL ON YOUR PART! Ultimately costing you a chance to be at this wedding, and having an unpleasant experience. Fortunately, sounds like you didn't end up too much out of pocket in the end. Consider that last a lucky break.

2) I am absolutely floored that the first ticketing agent (I assume Alaska) didn't catch this right there, and stamped your boarding pass as "international documents OK". THIS IS AN EPIC FAIL ON THEIR PART! And also how the Seattle Delta agent didn't catch. And the NRT agent. So many opportunities to nip this in the bud before arrival in China, and either abort the trip or go for a real-time recovery strategy. However, that doesn't absolve you from the initial visa error.

3) I note that the Chinese officialdom were actually nice to you when you arrived without visa. However, I'm sure you misheard about them possibly sending you to another Chinese airport to get a visa, since there is no such thing for you. It's possible somebody discussed sending you to Hong Kong which requires no visa itself, but in which you could get a Chinese visa then return.

4) I further note that it was the Delta officer not the Chinese police that was the Meanie. The yelling and swearing on Delta supervisor's part was unnecessary but unfortunately for you, was not illegal either. And understandable, possibly because he realized his airline was about to get a big fat fine from the Chinese. At that point, his demeanor was setting the tone for everybody else. Your read was correct on that. However, the Chinese are required to keep you in holding/detention at the airport until the outbound flight, whatever you heard about being cut some slack on hotel, etc. was not likely to happen. In the end, no Chinese official would have been willing to put his signature on the permission that allowed you out of the airport.

5) At least you stayed polite and cool under fire, no doubt assisted by your past training. At that point, confrontation would have got you nowhere and would have made things worse.

6) A bit pedantic, but your process was a "refused entry" not a deportation, since you were never allowed into China to begin with. Sounds like the process of keeping you in a holding pen and then escorting you to the door of the outbound plane went standard operating procedure.

7) The documents-vanishing-temporarily thing is standard, they were using to process the various Chinese and Delta reports that have to be submitted for these situations. And even if you had been allowed, calling the US Embassy would have got you nowhere, I can tell you that right now. That bunch wouldn't have been sympathetic to this type of self-inflicted screw-up, and in a practical sense, could do nothing to intervene anyway. Remember that you were in an interesting limbo situation, since you had not been officially admitted to Chinese soil. And you were not being accused by the Chinese of a crime or under formal arrest, though you were denied entry and appropriately detained for lack of proper documentation.

Again, you went wrong from the very beginning with your assumptions and your mindset. At least Alaska Airlines in the end, made good for their compoundment of the error. I think at this point, you should drop it, walk away and not expect apologies from Delta. In fact, I don't think you are owed any apologies from them, more like you and Alaska Airlines should apologize to them instead. I hope Delta is recovering their Chinese fine from Alaska Airlines also.

ETA for all readers: DO NOT GET YOUR VISA ADVICE FROM AN AIRLINE STAFF MEMBER AND DO NOT ASSUME THEY ARE DOING ANYTHING ON VISA MATTERS ON YOUR BEHALF.

+100

Both these posts are very informative and should be posted somewhere for anyone stepping outside of USA !

Poster, do you /did you know all Chinese need a visa to enter USA ? Rule of thumb is if they need one, you need one to go to them !

Also the groom / bride must have roots in China which means there is traffic both ways. Did they not know ? How did they travel to China? Chinese passports ?
I have made a mistake once....we're on a cruise ship, stop in Kampuchea...got the passports back from the ship, saw a visa. Did not examine it. From BKK returned to Angkor Wat, stopped in destination airport. Turns out the prior visa was a single entry only ! Luckily there was a procedure to get one on entry.taught me a lesson, not to ASSUME anything !

Yep, I knew Chinese people needed a visa to enter the USA, and knew I needed one to visit them. It was the issuance on arrival that was the confusion (and my country denies visa on arrival to a lot of countries that don't deny it to us, which just added to that confusion). Plus, my trip to Vietnam (communist country, former Chinese province, many other similarities that made me think the bureaucracy would be similar) went smooth last year, so among my many other mistakes here I was overconfident.

As for the groom and bride - she is a Chinese national living in the USA, and he has traveled to China with her so many times it has become a routine trip for him. He has known me since the mid-90s and I have been traveling internationally the entire time, so he had every reason to assume I was either aware or smart enough to find out about the requirements. I can't fault his logic there.

I can fault my logic (the whole situation is pretty much a giant testament proving I was, in fact, wrong), but I can't fault his.

[QUOTE=YepThatsMe;18239367]I called Alaska (who originally booked it all and was the rewards program I paid for all this with) and they issued a complete refund (minus the taxes, of course) and an apology.[QUOTE]

Making it all the way to China on mutliple flights with no visa is
mind boggling.

The odds of getting a refund out of the airline is about the same as winning
the powerball lottery.

You are very lucky!^

Yep, I knew Chinese people needed a visa to enter ".........""....................

I can fault my logic (the whole situation is pretty much a giant testament proving I was, in fact, wrong), but I can't fault his.

Takes A big man to say this. Compliments.

So I went to the airport to check in, and the ticketing agent took my passport scanned it and spent a good amount of time typing, and then stamped my boarding pass with something like "international travel documents ok." .

In Seattle, a Delta Airlines representative took my passport, scanned it, looked up a bunch of stuff, asked me some questions about my trip to China (duration, where I was going, etc) and then read from my passport while typing into a computer, at which point another boarding pass with "International Docs - OK" printed on it .

A Delta supervisor and a police officer with three rank clusters on his shoulder came over and asked more questions, asked if I had needed food and asked if I had money, at which point someone showed him the boarding passes.

The Delta supervisor FREAKED OUT at that point. He started swearing, yelling various insults at Americans in general, his face was red... But once Delta Airlines staff realized they were going to be on the hook for my repatriation (plus a 50,000Yuan fine according to the video they had playing in the office that scrolls through various Chinese laws in English) plus whatever else pissed them off, they had me locked down and out of sight until they could get me out of the country. .

Initially Chinese PSB may have thought there might be a continuing intl flight
to a third country that caused the error, probably excluded any misconduct on your part. Then when they saw the boarding passes.

DL nailed.
8000 USD fine..easily provable with those stamped boarding passes.

I too am surprised I made it all the way to china. But as for the refund, it was rewards points, not cash (most companies are a bit more willing to give up reward points, as it means some form of future business, or maybe even them going unused) and I did spend half an hour on the phone with their people showing them the holes in their website text that could prevent such incidents in the future. Mainly adding "in advance" to a few key sentences.

I imagine seasoned PRC travelers see this as a complete moron mistake, but for those of us who have mostly traveled to countries that issue visas at the airport, the wording in a LOT of the websites (airline, government and even this forum) can be misinterpreted. So I did try to help.

(I had to google "PSB" but I now get that it means the police in general. The passport/immigration officers I dealt with all had "police" in English on their uniforms as well as a 7 or 8 digit stamped metal serial number in place of a badge.)

Nope, they knew I was booked on a train from Beijing to Handan, and my only plan to leave China was my return flight home. That was the first question they asked me, and the officer who asked that did so in very good English. Subsequent officers I dealt with had more of a language barrier (at one point I was using Spanish, which I am terrible at, as our common language), but my itinerary for each day of my stay, including specific hotels and trains, was handed over up-front.

I only wish I knew the name of the tour group I was assigned to for the Great Wall and Forbidden City. Maybe being able to show a phone number of a local registered group would at least have gotten me telecommunications access, and in a roundabout way some sort of way to get a message out, get to Hong Kong, ... something.

It was in my eMail though. Could not get to it because the WiFi in that terminal requires you to access an internet validation kiosk, which was just a few feet away back to the boarding gates.

I imagine seasoned PRC travelers see this as a complete moron mistake, but for those of us who have mostly traveled to countries that issue visas at the airport, the wording in a LOT of the websites (airline, government and even this forum) can be misinterpreted. So I did try to help.

If it was so simple there wouldn't be a preponderance of posts here regarding
China visas. TWOV TOA SHA PVG PEK Shenzhen...single entry, mutliple entry
L F 24 hr 48 hr Dalian Hainan airside remain in airport surrounding city mutliple city 24 hr rule...quite complicated to say the least.

Just within the last 10 days an announcement was made that PVG would allow intl transfers without clearing China immigration/customs. When was official notice given...the day before. So don't feel like a moron.

I think that YTM was fortunate -- most FFPs would pocket the miles, especially since they actually transported you all the way and back!

One thing I don't understand, you mention that 'visas are a stamp on a passport' and that you once got one for going to Netherlands to buy a drink. Since from your post you are a US citizen, I can't recall when last US citizens required a visa for entry into the Netherlands -- well over 30 years ago I would assume (and you sound pretty young) if not longer. Furthermore, I doubt Netherlands issues 'visas' on arrival, or ever has.

Are you confusing entry stamps with visas? Most countries issue entry stamps whenever someone enters them, but many, many countries have no visa requirement for entry for tourist purposes. All EU countries and the US are a classic example. It could be that being well travelled, but actually mostly to countries that don't require visas for US citizens gave you a false sense of security. Some countries do issue visas on arrival (e.g. Turkey, Egypt) -- but it is purely a money-making exercise on their part. Some countries, US, China and Europe do make some checks for visa issuance and although making money is part of it, it probably isn't the most important part.

Sorry you missed the wedding.

tb

I brought this up in the other thread, but since mods have requested I stick to this thread (and I am new here, so don't know the protocol much), I'll give the short version of what I posted there:

That one wasn't required. I did it for kicks, a long time ago, because I had run out of every other possible way to entertain myself. I thought it would be funny, it was a transit visa, I had a very long layover, the officer was bored and I basically asked for the privilege of filling out a bunch of paperwork just to walk around his desk from one side to the other before going back to my chair. It was before airports had internet, I had already read all my books and I am pretty sure the officer was just as bored as I was. And to be 100% honest, I can't even be sure it was The Netherlands/Schiphol, because it was equally likely to have been Brussels/Charleroi as I went through both that year on a transit basis from a non-Benelux country to another non-Benelux country. The stamp is so old and blurry that I can't read it (it was also three passports ago. Thanks for calling me young!)

I have a massive amount of entry stamps because I used to collect them when I was younger. Usually, if I get a visa, it lasts a certain amount of time (and is only good for a certain number of entries, has some geographical restrictions and only allows certain activities such as study or commerce). On my two trips to the EU, I got an entry stamp at every country I passed through if I could talk the officers into it.

Every entry/exit that occurs in those parameters usually results in an entry stamp, which as far as I know has no legal purpose and just basically states what port you went through and when. The visa is what actually grants you the entry privilege.

I have a bunch of other things in my passports over the years too. A Red Cross donation that was required before I could get an exit visa in Central America (can't recall exactly what country), some random Arabic writing that I can't begin to decipher, something that I was told was an imperial seal in Japan that probably had something to do with a tour I was taking, and a whole mess of blurry ink blotches from my old maroon passport.

The minority of the things in my passports are visas.

Which is one reason why this whole "I was too dumb enough to figure out how to get a proper visa" situation is so humiliating.

YTM, thanks for sharing and owning up to the error. While others did screw up and it appears there was some misinformation, in the end I don't think you can legitimately blame anyone. Here are my thoughts:

1. Never seen any website saying you don't need a visa for 6 day stays or on tour. Can you share the link?
2. For obtaining visa's, it is one person's responsibility to know the rules. I wouldn't EVER rely on an airline agent. If I went to a China website (or any other country), I'd certainly check the US site to verify.
3. Thinking you can show up and buy yourself a visa is IMO somewhat foolish and a bit arrogant. While many countries you can do this and most countries to US citizens you don't need a visa, assuming you can do this in China (or eg Russia/Kazakhstan etc) is culturally insensitive.
4. Visa is not just a stamp. I've never had a visa be a stamp. Maybe for some places, but there's a reason why Russia/China require more than some half sleepy guy stamping passports blindly.
5. I don't think it is the responsibility of the airlines to YOU to check your visa, the check is moreso for their responsibility. Thus if they fail, you can't blame them. They simply reap their own failure on themselves. They failed yes, but so did you and thus you reap the responsibility of not having a visa. Thus I think you got lucky to have AS treat you so nicely. Just curious, what did you complain to them to get them to refund it to you?
6. Sorry to hear the DL sup yelled at you, that was wrong for sure. But I get the sense there is some cultural things that were occurring. Can't tell, for sure. Either way, sorry to hear you had this treatment and would be curious to know what DL says.

Which is one reason why this whole "I was too dumb enough to figure out how to get a proper visa" situation is so humiliating.

Not sure if its wise to admit fault as per DLs CoC passenger is liable for carrier's costs in this situation. :(

4. Visa is not just a stamp. I've never had a visa be a stamp. Maybe for some places, but there's a reason why Russia/China require more than some half sleepy guy stamping passports blindly.

China visas used to be stamps... Philippines, and India as well. But, separates stamp visas from arrival/departure stamps is that they say "visa" on them.

China visas used to be stamps... Philippines, and India as well. But, separates stamp visas from arrival/departure stamps is that they say "visa" on them.

When was this? I have my old passport with my first Chinese visa from 1987, and it was not a stamp, it was a paste-in just like today's visas...only with a different format.

It is true that some visas are stamped in passport and they specifically say "Visa" on them. Normally they are overstamped (or on facing page) with the entry and exit stamps, and some visas have blank lines for the admitting officer to scribble something in. These are different than just entry stamps (a la Hong Kong's, or the Thailand non-visa entry stamp for eligibles arriving by air).

-- While I entirely admit this was an epic fail on my part, and there were many things I did wrong, I don't think using past experience as part of a way to figure out current situations is a practice I would normally consider a bad idea. ---

This is true only if you can separate process and logic from your underlying assumptions. In other words, an investigative process that worked before should work for a new situation in ferreting out truths and reality. But you cannot assume the RESULTS of the previous investigative process are going to carry over to the RESULTS of the new effort.

-- Why is that not a good idea? It's their country, I think many people who are not experienced with China would assume that the Chinese government would be a good place to get information about the Chinese government's procedures. --

Which would not necessarily be the greatest assumption. Problems:
1) The Chinese government websites--and particularly the English language versions--are not necessarily kept up to date, accurate, or translated perfectly and completely. This includes Embassy websites. In fact, I could probably pull up 5 different Chinese websites that will say 5 different things, and possibly none of them perfectly correct.

2) The Chinese government continuously moves the goal posts, sometimes with little or no warning. And they move them differently for different citizens of different countries, and for different situations. Welcome to our World of China. This of course, exacerbates the problems of point #1.

3) Regardless, there is no Chinese government website I know of anywhere, that would give your situation a visa-less entry, a visa-on-arrival, a free pass, or whatever. You didn't qualify for any of the exemptions. Chinese websites when they mention visa-on-arrival, usually also mention that this must be applied for/arranged in advance for special cases. Thus, it isn't a true "visa on arrival" as most Westerners tend to understand the term, but is prearranged. While I'm at it, I'd also like to point out that the case of Vietnamese visa that you mentioned in a previous post above is also NOT NOT NOT a true "visa on arrival" but must be prearranged as well. Just try showing up at the Vietnamese border or any airport with no visa in your passport and no prearrangement made for pickup when you land, and see what happens.


-- No, I was assuming I would have to do more. I was at the website trying to find out what I would have to do in advance. I was specifically trying to find more hoops to jump through, the page I found didn't list them. --

Then that should have been a very strong clue that whatever avenue you were reading about, wasn't an option. I'd still like to take a look at whatever website you are referring to.

-- Again no. I was not assuming I could VOA, I was trying to find out what the process was, and was unsatisfied with the information I got from the airline (that it was taken care of and I could VOA) and the government (that I just had to have a visa) that I went looking for some other information that would be more difficult. I was, at first, actively LOOKING FOR MORE BURDEN. I tried, I failed. Of course, now that I am back, I have found a TON of information to the contrary, but now I know a lot more about specific problems to look for --

Well, most any reputable and well-known travel site and forum (not just FT) would have an active discussion going on about Chinese visas. One hour spent perusing these would have probably given you a decent picture, at least the knowledge that you would need a visa in advance. Or any decent professional visa agent. Or Delta's own Travel Planner which follows the Timactic database. My point: a cross-section of sources is out there. This simply isn't rocket science to know that a visa in advance is needed for China. Our own FT Sticky at top of forum lays it out pretty clearly for most typical traveler situations.

2) NRT was on the trip back (and they were awesome). Alaska was the first document check in PDX, Delta was the second document check in SEA.

3) Hong Kong and a couple others were mentioned, but it was moot as I could not talk to a ticket agent.

The Hong Kong strategy was no good once you arrived in China. It would have had to have been deployed at some point in the journey.

4) And yet, there he was, offering me a transit visa that would have let me out of the airport. He explained that I would have to take a taxi of their choosing, the hotel would have to call them when I got there (though, as I understand it, that's sort of standard for foreigners in China anyway, right?) and would have to keep to a very particular schedule

I believe anacapamalibu is correct on this--that initially the officer thought you might have an ongoing flight and qualified for transit. (BTW, no, it is NOT STANDARD for hotels to call the police/PSB for foreign guests. They do have to fill out am electronic registration with your passport which then goes to the police. This also goes for foreigners staying in private homes and apartments, who have to register in person within a certain time limit.) If he already knew you were a denied entry, then he was being generous indeed and this is the first time I've ever heard of this type of generous offer. It is standard procedure to hold and detain.

5) Yeah, I have yet to see any situation that was improved by yelling or rudeness. I was making it a point to not even frown.

6) "Refused entry" sounds right to me. Delta and the police used the term "deport," but that may have been just because it's more easily understood or commonly used.

"Deportation" from China is much more serious and is a formal legal proceeding. And something the US Embassy would want and need to know about. Normally with the Chinese you get a big red mark in your passport physically and in their database electronically, which generally prevents you from getting a Chinese visa from one to five years after the incident. There is nothing in your refused entry that will automatically prevent you from applying for a Chinese visa in the reasonably near future...we hope.


7) The documents didn't vanish temporarily, they vanished permanently. And I don't (ever) expect my embassy to fix a problem, but they would at least have been contact with the outside world. Five minutes on the telephone with ANYONE would have drastically improved the situation. As for walking about the airport, when I had police guards, they were willing to let me go anywhere on the "out of the country" side of Passport control as long as they were with me. Pity the shops were closed. When they went to a police+Delta guard setup, that stopped. The sad thing is that I didn't find the pay phones or internet kiosks until after that point.

Not sure what documents you are referring to. The only thing that really mattered was your passport, which obviously reappeared. Since your initially scheduled return flights became null and void once your predicament became apparent to all, their vanishing--if that is what you are referring to--is kind of a moot point.

Delta did exactly the same thing Alaska did though. All other issues aside, Delta looked through my passport and declared my travel papers to be in good order too, just like Alaska. I could see if it Delta simply trusted Alaska's ticket agent and got burned, but Delta's ticket agent did exactly the same thing. I don't think Delta has a case against Alaska here.

Well, this is certainly true. Delta was a burner and a burnee.

This incident brings up a point I'd like to make, and for more than just visa situations: please don't depend 100% on electronic devices to store important data. Of course use them as your primary method if that is your preference, but, unfashionable as it sounds, have a Plan B secondary. Anybody who follows this forum and my postings knows I'm a big believer in Plan B's (and C's, etc. ). So, please take along a very small notebook that has critical data such as emergency phone numbers, emails, resources which may be places/addresses/websites, etc. Keep it in a separate pocket, purse, or bag from your primary. Why?

1) In case you are in a situation where your electronic toys are temporarily or permanently confiscated or stolen. And there goes your database and you're dead in the water.
2) In case technology just craps out on you, or you are in a place where nothing works. (yes, believe it or not, this exists).

Old-fashioned girl that I am, I always have one of these pocket-sized little ring notebooks with me. And some cash to make a phone call, buy an IP card, or bribe somebody to use theirs (or make a contact for me). Yes, my bacon has been saved by my low-tech little book on more than one occasion.

When was this? I have my old passport with my first Chinese visa from 1987, and it was not a stamp, it was a paste-in just like today's visas...only with a different format.

It is true that some visas are stamped in passport and they specifically say "Visa" on them. Normally they are overstamped (or on facing page) with the entry and exit stamps, and some visas have blank lines for the admitting officer to scribble something in. These are different than just entry stamps (a la Hong Kong's, or the Thailand non-visa entry stamp for eligibles arriving by air).

Moondog is a true China expert...old china hand.


China visa stamped in passport.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/assets/stories/DGhdt0EFxd3-H-xhylIsoA.jpg

When was this? I have my old passport with my first Chinese visa from 1987, and it was not a stamp, it was a paste-in just like today's visas...only with a different format.


My first trip to China was in 1995; I think I got a sticker then (residence permit), but about 3 stamp visas between then and ~1999. If I still had that passport, I would make some scans to share here, but I'm guessing google images has a decent library.

Moondog is a true China expert...old china hand.


China visa stamped in passport.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/assets/stories/DGhdt0EFxd3-H-xhylIsoA.jpg

1925??? That was not a PRC Visa.

But in the 1970's it was a full page stamp plus a decal.

Comment from retired ground operations director of an intl airline:

"Although DL probably go hit for the fine as well as responsible for physically ensuring the departure of the passenger in question most of the fault is with AS.

AS checked intl travel document at PDX and someone made an incorrect note in the passengers PNR which lead DL to print out an "intl Doc OK" boarding pass. With this boarding pass the GA might have ASSUMED that this passenger is OK to travel to PRC."

He also commented that DL will recover all cost of this fiasco from AS. AS is wise to give a full refund of miles.

I'm also very surprised NRT didn't catch it. I used to fly NW through NRT all the time, and I remember they made massive queues while they checked peoples visas at the boarding gate.

I've never shown my visa to get on a flight to China. It's always been checked when the boarding passes were issued and that's for the domestic leg.

China visa stamped in passport.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/assets/stories/DGhdt0EFxd3-H-xhylIsoA.jpg

1925??? That was not a PRC Visa.

But in the 1970's it was a full page stamp plus a decal.
1925?! That is waaaaay ahead of my time. :D

I have no clue about stamped China visa but according to the wording on the jpg page, that is a visa issued by Republic of China (ROC), definitely not PRC.

Nowadays, for most westerners, if not all, "China" refers to PRC, not ROC. In layman or daily convo, "Taiwan" is used more often than ROC (i.e. Republic of China). While we are at it, Taiwan is much more visa-friendly to international visitors and does have visa-exempt entry to most visitors for short-term stay (more details here (http://www.boca.gov.tw/lp.asp?ctNode=779&CtUnit=79&BaseDSD=7&mp=2)).

IF this trip had been YepThatsMe being the bestman for his friend who were marrying a Taiwanese girl in Taiwan, repeating all the same human and procedural mistakes, he would still have been able to get into Taiwan and stay for up to 30 days. Things may change later this year though. ;)

Now back to the regularly scheduled program...

1925?! That is waaaaay ahead of my time. :D

I have no clue about stamped China visa but according to the wording on the jpg page, that is a visa issued by Republic of China (ROC), definitely not PRC.

.

Visa stamp dated 1925. At that time ROC was in mainland China.

ROC 1912-1949 Kuomintang relocated the ROC government to Taiwan
PRC 1 OCT 1949

IF this trip had been YepThatsMe being the bestman for his friend who were marrying a Taiwanese girl in Taiwan, repeating all the same human and procedural mistakes, he would still have been able to get into Taiwan and stay for up to 30 days. Things may change later this year though. ;)

...

That's been my experience. One occasion at TPE my passport expired in
less than a few months. Technically should have been denied entry, but
accomodated by the immigration officers by paying about 5USD for
a variance. Taiwan is very foreigner friendly.

Visa stamp dated 1925. At that time ROC was in mainland China.

ROC 1912-1949 Kuomintang relocated the ROC government to Taiwan
PRC 1 OCT 1949
Being a Taiwanese, I personally know ROC's history very well. Thank you! :)

No matter where ROC was or is, my point is PRC is not ROC and a ROC-issued visa wouldn't have helped. ;) YepThatsMe should have got his PRC visa before leaving for PEK.


IF this trip had been YepThatsMe being the bestman for his friend who were marrying a Taiwanese girl in Taiwan, repeating all the same human and procedural mistakes, he would still have been able to get into Taiwan and stay for up to 30 days. Things may change later this year though. ;)

...
That's been my experience. One occasion at TPE my passport expired in
less than a few months. Technically should have been denied entry, but
accomodated by the immigration officers by paying about 5USD for
a variance. Taiwan is very foreigner friendly.
In such case, being an American with an expiring passport, you were given a landing visa, which will cost $140 + $24 fee now (http://www.boca.gov.tw/ct.asp?xItem=1446&ctNode=779&mp=2). Taiwan didn't have to deny your entry.

I can't argue Taiwan is friendly. :D

Which would not necessarily be the greatest assumption. Problems:
1) The Chinese government websites--and particularly the English language versions--are not necessarily kept up to date, accurate, or translated perfectly and completely. This includes Embassy websites. In fact, I could probably pull up 5 different Chinese websites that will say 5 different things, and possibly none of them perfectly correct.

2) The Chinese government continuously moves the goal posts, sometimes with little or no warning. And they move them differently for different citizens of different countries, and for different situations. Welcome to our World of China. This of course, exacerbates the problems of point #1.

I'd just like to put forward a slightly different perspective on this: I can see how an reasonable and prudent average person can be at moderately high risk to make a mistake. If the Chinese government is going to change things in a capricious manner, well, that's their right (they may even have a good reason to do this, I don't know)--but at the very least, post it somewhere accurately!

True, DL is not responsible for being authoritative about visa processes, but, from a customer service standpoint, I'm a little bit surprised that Delta isn't trying harder here. To my knowledge, they're not the cheapest carrier into Asia, and as a brand I respect, I don't think it's unreasonable for me to expect that they use their expertise, resources and motivation (namely, they really do want passengers to fly to China on DL) to provide some sort of guidance here.

I'm hard pressed to view blame and responsibility as a black-and-white or Boolean observation: there comes a point when arcane, overly complex or incredibly long laws that lack fairness because one almost needs to be a lawyer or barrister to abide by them.

China visas used to be stamps... Philippines, and India as well. But, separates stamp visas from arrival/departure stamps is that they say "visa" on them.

Moondog is a true China expert...old china hand.


China visa stamped in passport.

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/assets/stories/DGhdt0EFxd3-H-xhylIsoA.jpg

Predates me, my first visa was in 1999 and was a paste on page.

I first visited China from Hong Kong in the early 80's. Visa for Americans cost HK$50, about US$10 at that time. It was a chop with very messy and wet ink, often smudged already when picking it up. And the Xinhua News Agency on Queen's RD E was the place to get it. Before the China Resource Building in Wan Chai opened.

I'm hard pressed to view blame and responsibility as a black-and-white or Boolean observation: there comes a point when arcane, overly complex or incredibly long laws that lack fairness because one almost needs to be a lawyer or barrister to abide by them.

If you read the relevant policies (from Timatic or any PRC consulate site), you will discover that they are neither overly complex nor long. I also fail to see how they lack fairness.

Furthermore, substantial contradictions from consulate to consulate are very rare (i.e. some consulates provide better visas than others, but the rules are the same).

I'd just like to put forward a slightly different ...................
.................I'm hard pressed to view blame and responsibility as a black-and-white or Boolean observation: there comes a point when arcane, overly complex or incredibly long laws that lack fairness because one almost needs to be a lawyer or barrister to abide by them.

If you read the relevant policies (from Timatic or any PRC consulate site), you will discover that they are neither overly complex nor long. I also fail to see how they lack fairness.

Furthermore, substantial contradictions from consulate to consulate are very rare (i.e. some consulates provide better visas than others, but the rules are the same).

You may think and se & interpret other country's laws as archaic or whatever...IT IS THEIR COUNTRY, THEIR LAWS.

Have you read some of our laws ? Just remember that laws are written by Govt. employees whose DNA dictates that it should be so that we will always require them to interpret these laws , thus assuring job safety !

Have you read some of our laws ? Just remember that laws are written by Govt. employees whose DNA dictates that it should be so that we will always require them to interpret these laws , thus assuring job safety !

Without a doubt, some US laws are definitely arcane. And I am absolutely not fond of how we treat foreign tourists in the US (Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/19/AR2006111901073.html)).

When was this? I have my old passport with my first Chinese visa from 1987, and it was not a stamp, it was a paste-in just like today's visas...only with a different format.

I have two visas from 96-99 in my old passport which were of the stamped variety.

1925?! That is waaaaay ahead of my time. :D

I have no clue about stamped China visa but according to the wording on the jpg page, that is a visa issued by Republic of China (ROC), definitely not PRC.

Nowadays, for most westerners, if not all, "China" refers to PRC, not ROC. In layman or daily convo, "Taiwan" is used more often than ROC (i.e. Republic of China). While we are at it, Taiwan is much more visa-friendly to international visitors and does have visa-exempt entry to most visitors for short-term stay (more details here (http://www.boca.gov.tw/lp.asp?ctNode=779&CtUnit=79&BaseDSD=7&mp=2)).

IF this trip had been YepThatsMe being the bestman for his friend who were marrying a Taiwanese girl in Taiwan, repeating all the same human and procedural mistakes, he would still have been able to get into Taiwan and stay for up to 30 days. Things may change later this year though. ;)

Now back to the regularly scheduled program...
I can verify that I have indeed entered Taiwan for the purpose of attending a wedding and I did not need a visa.

I have two visas from 96-99 in my old passport which were of the stamped variety.

Obviously the PRC during this time period used stamped visas instead of paper paste-ins which they used previously, and which they returned to later.

I can verify that I have indeed entered Taiwan for the purpose of attending a wedding and I did not need a visa.

Wedding fireworks...good way to show off wealth?

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-yVvp13EMV4&v=-yVvp13EMV4&gl=US

Obviously the PRC during this time period used stamped visas instead of paper paste-ins which they used previously, and which they returned to later.

I think they used both at the same time for a while, as well (i.e. some consulates didn't have access to stickers, while others did).

Its a pretty simple fix, just buy an onward ticket PEK to Hong Kong that leaves
in < 24 hours from arrival at PEK. That qualifies one for a transit without visa
as HK is a third country. If you overstay the 24 hours in China and have a legitimate
excuse that caused you the failure to depart on time, that's acceptable.

Assuming one has a passport from the follwing countries:

Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Republic of Korea, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and USA


Funny thing is (look at my thread here) is that the Chinese embassy in Oslo claims the TWOV thing doesn't exist anymore.Any way you could try to board a flight to the United States without the proper paperwork (if you even get onboard that is) and try to enter. You will be deported back whatsoever. Speaking about visas I know about one person who managed to get into Afghanistan without a visa and with an Israeli stamp. Norwegian citizen, but of Afghani origin.

Funny thing is (look at my thread here) is that the Chinese embassy in Oslo claims the TWOV thing doesn't exist anymore.Any way you could try to board a flight to the United States without the proper paperwork (if you even get onboard that is) and try to enter. You will be deported back whatsoever. Speaking about visas I know about one person who managed to get into Afghanistan without a visa and with an Israeli stamp. Norwegian citizen, but of Afghani origin.

See my response to your situation on your own thread. Not sure what your point is about boarding flights to USA without paperwork or somebody getting into Afghanistan--China regulations are their own thing and not meant to be compared to those of other countries.

TWOV definitely exists and as I write this, is being undertaken at PEK (and elsewhere in China airports) by hundreds of people. Whether any Norwegians are in the mix is a different question.

And now I have to book a different (domestic) flight with Delta Airlines for a couple months from now. Here's hoping some Delta employee doesn't lock me up in a sidehall and steal all my documents again.

Of course, it's Texas, so the odds of being locked up for legitimate reasons are fairly high. :)

And now I have to book a different (domestic) flight with Delta Airlines for a couple months from now.
At least we are certain you don't need a visa nor passport to fly solely domestic in the States. :D

At least we are certain you don't need a visa nor passport to fly solely domestic in the States. :D

Although sometimes it's not clear whether Texans feel they belong to their own independent territory!

tb

Wow what a story. Almost one that would make some others on this thread envious for adventure.

It is usually the responsibility of the originating carrier to remove you from a country that you have been denied entry. This is why they are supposed to check documents. It is up to them usually to pick up the tab- not the Chinese government.

At least you got a refund of your miles. Excellent compensation in my opinion.

Sorry about the wedding. Better luck / planning next time.