Air France Frequence Plus - Paid access to P services for J pax on long-haul flights without a P cabin ex CDG

From the Air France French travel agent portal

- effective March 12th, 2012
- cost: EUR 800 or 57,000 miles per passenger
- maximum: 10 passengers per day
- for passengers ticketed in the J cabin (all fares) on long-haul flights without a P cabin, departing from CDG or connecting through CDG
- no guest allowed
- includes all ground services available to passengers flying in the P cabin

- 7 days before their flight, eligible passengers receive an offer by e-mail to register (fill a form) and give a timeframe when they can be called by phone (not applicable to PNRs with more than 2 passengers or with a UM)
- priority is based on the fare class, within a fare class, on the time the customer has filled the form; payment is made on the phone by credit card or with AF/KL FFP miles
- if the requests have exceeded the quota (10 per day), the customer receives an e-mail saying so
- the service is cancellable and refundable; when the date of travel is changed, one must re-initiate the process

- travel agents can also book the service from 15 days before the flight up to 5:00 PM (Paris time) the day before the flight

Nice Air France offer for this 9,999th post! :)

So, If I understand, this allows you to experience all facets of the ground portion of P including entry to the La Premier lounge, if you are on a flight with no P class.

Do you believe it's worthwhile ?

Thanks for the information and congratulations on post 10,000 (possible as the answer to this!)
(edit: Nevermind, I'm late! I see you surpassed it on the RER post. Cheers!)

So, If I understand, this allows you to experience all facets of the ground portion of P including entry to the La Premier lounge, if you are on a flight with no P class.

Do you believe it's worthwhile ?

Thanks for the information and congratulations on post 10,000 (possible as the answer to this!)
(edit: Nevermind, I'm late! I see you surpassed it on the RER post. Cheers!)

I believe the price in miles is quite affordable and the offer is worthwhile. For the price in EUR, it is a bit overstated when compared with a meal at a great restaurant in Paris or elsewhere, IMHO. On the other hand, it does seem to be a fine experience, above what I enjoyed in CX's First Class lounges at HKG, except for the cabanas, or at the CCR with BA.

Congrats JOUY31!

Are you going to buy a round of drinks in Paris? ;)

Congrats JOUY31!

Are you going to buy a round of drinks in Paris? ;)

Sometime around April 27th at the AF/ADP CDG Do :)

I join others in congratulating you on this nice milestone, especially when one looks at the quality of the posts and not just at their quantity! ^ This being said, I also join you in saying that I personally wouldn't pay €800 for this. I would not care about it when I travel on my own, and when I travel with a person I would want to share this with, I would indeed rather invest the €1600 in a luxury mini break or in a few great meals. Even the Louis XV's of this world wouldn't nearly need take you to that sort of total bill.

I join others in congratulating you on this nice milestone, especially when one looks at the quality of the posts and not just at their quantity! ^ This being said, I also join you in saying that I personally wouldn't pay €800 for this. I would not care about it when I travel on my own, and when I travel with a person I would want to share this with, I would indeed rather invest the €1600 in a luxury mini break or in a few great meals. Even the Louis XV's of this world wouldn't nearly need take you to that sort of total bill.

+1

I would indeed rather invest the €1600 in a luxury mini break or in a few great meals.

Jesus...I really do need to sleep as I read "females" instead of "meals" O_o

Anyway, I think this offer is a rather good idea to let J pax having a taste at P services. Cost in Miles seems OK, 800EUR seems a bit costly though.

How much do FBEs pay for an upgrade to P? 100k miles? The 57k miles charge seems to me quite reasonable, but I would not fork out 800 euros for this. Though when you consider that P costs twice as much as J, then 800 euros makes sense.

The fact AF offers this only on long-haul routes without P is a reasonable restriction and may provide some hints as to whether there is a demand for P on some routes. Since the trend is to cut them, I see it rather as a way to extract revenue from whatever is left of premium passangers.

Congratulations to our dear moderator for his 10,000th post ^

Congratulations JOUY31.
The exchange rate 57,000 miles for €800, seems reasonable to me. It prices a classic J award to the US at some €1,500 (100,000 miles). Would I pay €800 (or 57,000 miles) for a one-time access to the P lounge and improved check-in? NEVER.

Congratulations JOUY31.
10,000 thanks for your great job!

Congratulations JOUY31.
Would I pay €800 (or 57,000 miles) for a one-time access to the P lounge and improved check-in? NEVER.
Simply cannot see the interest of paying this service (not a big fan of limousine service at airport, P lounge is great but not worth the price of a night at Le Meurice or Mandarin Oriental!!)

Jesus...I really do need to sleep as I read "females" instead of "meals" O_o


:D Now you're really gonna get me in trouble!!!

Now here is my thinking bit by bit:

- I also agree it makes sense that AF only offers this on flights with no First Class but...

- Can we then say that AF is still offering to sell the 'ground' part of the Premiere ticket where it cannot offer the 'flight' part?

- If so, AF values that 'ground' part at €800 each way, i.e. €1600 on a return trip.

- By all accounts on this forum, the 'ground' part is supposed to be by far the better part of the P experience while the flight part is quasi-universally deemed disappointing

- Yet, all of us seem to agree we would not pay €800 for the 'ground upgrade' each way (or €1600 return) (some have said they would pay with miles, but my guess is it is not so much a question of 'exchange rate' as a question of 'available balance' - depending on travel patterns, many have more opportunities to accrue miles than to spend them, and ones your 'bank account' reaches a certain level, 57k can look like relatively little).

- The difference between a Z fare and a P fare on CDG-JFK is €8000. OK, people will tell me that Z has more restrictions so let us compare with the C fare. The difference between CDG-JFK in C and in P is €5000 with comparable flexibility.

- If €1600 is ascribed to ground services, then €3400 is ascribed to flight service differences only, i.e. €1700 each way. Or let us say €1500 each way to account for incidental benefits such as extra mileage etc.

- Would any of us accept to pay €1500 for an upgrade to a P seat (without the ground services) on CDG-JFK? I'd be ready to bet not.

- So even if offered a choice to pick 'only' the part of the P service (ground or flight) we care most about without any additional cost for debundling (as in you should normally pay more for 'part' over the 'bundle', i.e if A+B+C is sold for an extra €5000, commercially, the prices of A alone, B alone, and C alone sold separately should total significantly over €5000), none of us would accept to pay any such service.

Conclusion: as we keep repeating over and again, regardless of how you look at it, AF P is waaaaayyyyy overpriced...

Simply cannot see the interest of paying this service (not a big fan of limousine service at airport, P lounge is great but not worth the price of a night at Le Meurice or Mandarin Oriental!!)
TWO nights at Mandarin Oriental in HK.

€800,- for 3/4 hours in a better lounge + a good meal??!!

Sometimes I don't get people's view of the value of money. €800 can do a lot more in Paris or another city than an airport lounge upgrade!

Would I pay €800 (or 57,000 miles) for a one-time access to the P lounge and improved check-in? NEVER.

+1

Many happy returns, JOUY31! :)

This 'offer' is just bonkers. Everyone understands that AF has a very hard time selling P seats due to the substandard product, but trying to squeeze revenue this way is almost embarrassing. The Salon P at CDG is indeed lovely, the best part of AF P by miles, but it certainly is not worth EUR800. Either drop this inferior product once and for all or bring it up to scratch.

From my understanding, a PAX in the P lounge costs roughly 600EUR to AF. So that would be a 200EUR income for AF per pax.

From my understanding, a PAX in the P lounge costs roughly 600EUR to AF. So that would be a 200EUR income for AF per pax.

How can it be that much?? It sounds like an outrageous price to pay when thinking of how much a customer costs in a 3* restaurant or a 5* hotel or both.

How can it be that much?? It sounds like an outrageous price to pay when thinking of how much a customer costs in a 3* restaurant or a 5* hotel or both.

Presumably by taking all the fixed costs and dividing by the number of passengers. Of course, there are many other ways to arrive at the actual cost, and it will all depend on allocations and splits between fixed and variable, but given the number above my guesstimation is that someone added up the number of Paying P class eligible passengers per year and divided it by the total operating costs of the services- in which case 600 EUR may even be low.

Presumably by taking all the fixed costs and dividing by the number of passengers. Of course, there are many other ways to arrive at the actual cost, and it will all depend on allocations and splits between fixed and variable, but given the number above my guesstimation is that someone added up the number of Paying P class eligible passengers per year and divided it by the total operating costs of the services- in which case 600 EUR may even be low.

I think you are right and as such could include the 'failure' to sell P as part of the 'passenger cost'. I think this might also include some share of services (check in, etc) that may also have been incurred should the pax 'only' use his/her J service so I would imagine a significantly higher % benefit.

I join others in congratulating you on this nice milestone, especially when one looks at the quality of the posts and not just at their quantity! ^ Hear, hear. ^

I think you are right and as such could include the 'failure' to sell P as part of the 'passenger cost'. I think this might also include some share of services (check in, etc) that may also have been incurred should the pax 'only' use his/her J service so I would imagine a significantly higher % benefit.Yes, this indeed sounds plausible and this would tend to show the meaninglessness of such a figure.

Incidentally, I am surprised that most people regard 57K miles as a reasonable figure. I get the point that this is designed to appeal to points-rich passengers and that, if you have a million or two FB miles, 57K does not mean much. But, in that case, you could say the same of pretty much any figure below, say, 100K. 57K (rather than 50K or 75K) is also such an odd number I am sure there must some reason for it but it is strange nonetheless.

Hear, hear. ^

It seems you will soon reach the same milestone :).

It seems you will soon reach the same milestone :).

And will indeed deserve the same compliment! ^ Nick will you reserve the AF forum your 10,000th post rather than BA? ;)

It seems you will soon reach the same milestone :).Well, we are still some distance away in numbers and even more so on quality. I am prone to the occasional bout of utter drivel, whereas you have the self-restraint to avoid such.

Incidentally, I am surprised that most people regard 57K miles as a reasonable figure. I get the point that this is designed to appeal to points-rich passengers and that, if you have a million or two FB miles, 57K does not mean much. But, in that case, you could say the same of pretty much any figure below, say, 100K. 57K (rather than 50K or 75K) is also such an odd number I am sure there must some reason for it but it is strange nonetheless.

Totally agree with you - I wouldn't personally pay 57,000 miles for this either! I agree it's meant to appeal to people who 'don't know what to do with their miles' and as such could be a clever commercial offer but as for me, I'd rather buy a promo award long haul return than the 'P treatment on the ground' - not to mention that for those of us who connect from somewhere else, we even run the risk of buying a service which we'll only be able to use for a few minutes if our first flight is late!

And will indeed deserve the same compliment! ^

I fully agree :).

Nick will you reserve the AF forum your 10,000th post rather than BA? ;)I suspect that, by then, BD DC will unfortunately be no more so it sounds like it won't be in that one in any event. :(

I suspect that, by then, BD DC will unfortunately be no more so it sounds like it won't be in that one in any event. :(

:(

Congratulations to our moderator for this milestone !

Now on the original topic, I would certainly not pay 800 EUR to spend some hours in a lounge that is less than 20 km from my parisian home.

Indeed, the P lounge experience consists in :
- separate lounge, less crowded than regular AF lounges in CDG -> as these are always full, I tend to spend more time at home rather than at the aiport ; on this point, my home will always be be more comfortable than an airline lounge.
- great food -> strong point there ; but how much is a lunch at a Ducasse restaurant downtown Paris?
- hassle-free security / passport controls -> again a strong plus for the AF lounge ; but with free Parafes and an Elite Plus card, the price difference is not justified.
- limo service -> except for a few destinations, most long haul aircrafts are connected with jetways rather than with buses ; and no one knows in advance where the aircraft will stand (again, except from n°1 destinations such as NRT, JFK, etc... where aircrafts always are au contact) ; limo service seems more or less an ego thing to me

Paying with miles might be an option only if I have some hundreds of thousands miles to burn because going to P solo does not seems very attractive to me.

All in, this new service from AF inspires me two things :
- that is another improvement to make some cash with service rather than by simply flying their aircrafts ; the new thing is that it now concerns premium class services (I do not know if that is a good sign for the future)
- the price in cash seems horribly expensive for the improvement compared to regular J / Elite Plus service ; and that is consistent with the current AF P princing.

Thus, who might be the clients of this new service? The same who already pay (not necessarily from their pocket) for AF P i.e. show business, French and African corporate leaders / politicians plus some rich AF fans.

How can it be that much?? It sounds like an outrageous price to pay when thinking of how much a customer costs in a 3* restaurant or a 5* hotel or both.

I think the "catering" costs are not the biggest part : rent for the space, customs procedures with authorities, limo, etc.

You gotta have a boatload of miles to find this offer attractive (unless it's a "splurge of the moment" thing, where cost is usually not a factor) ...
For 57 K miles, i'd rather find a promo award in J to the US (though taxes are high), costing 50 K for select routes .

I actually find it difficult to understand who AF is trying to target concerning this offer :
. people flying in J , by giving them a preview of the P service ? Then why limit it to ONLY long haul flights without a P cabin ? Most people I know who fly AF in J frequently, including my father, do that on a small number of routes. If these routes have a P product, they won't be eligible for this offer. On the contrary, if these routes don't have a P product, they won't be able, after experiencing the airport P offering, to book the full service (on ground and on air).
. people having a boatload of miles without any use whatsoever ?

After asking my father, a long time C2000 on AF flying exclusively on J full fare or P for really long flights (CDG-NRT or CDG LAX), and seeing that even he doesn't understand the logic of it, i fail to understand the rationality behind this offer...:rolleyes:

€800,- for 3/4 hours in a better lounge + a good meal??!!

Sometimes I don't get people's view of the value of money. €800 can do a lot more in Paris or another city than an airport lounge upgrade!
You're asking the wrong question. You're talking about someone who would normally be willing to pay for P, but since P is not available they can have J in flight + P on the ground in CDG. For such a person €800 is not a lot of money, not nearly what €800 means to you.

Here's what I find funny about this: someone pays for J and then the P ground services in CDG... and connects to/from an intra-EU AF C (where one can enjoy the fine wines of Y, or perhaps a Heineken, in a Y seat). Hahahahaha!

Congratulations on the 10k!

AF P is clearly a terrible failure and in a desperate attempt to bring in some cash they are selling their premium product in this way. Can you imagine paid for access to the FCT? Granted it can be gained by status but even so I think that its unimaginable.

I wish KL could dump AF and get on with making some money with a fairly decent, fairly priced product with pleasant crew and no where near the risks of strikes and disruption from a functional airport like AMS with easy connections.

I was recently thinking about going for Plat for life but I am actually really worried that in 7 years time AFKL might not exist anymore.

AF will survive, as many National airlines, through indirect State subsidies. Whether it will sell KL (while retaining extensive cooperation) to get needed cash is another question.

I really don't feel targeted by this offer ;) but I can understand the logic behind it. For a very limited amount of pax exclusively travelling in longhaul P it is giving them the option to keep the same ground service at CDG and not to be mixed with the crowd in standard lounge with all J pax (when P is not available). Some premium service for VIP for whom 800€ doesn't have the same value as for most of us out here.

In the past with AF everything was very unflexible. Impossible to enter the standard lounge with an additional guest as an example. Now for all of those extra services they are giving the option to get them with an additionnal fee 35€ for standard lounge and 800 for first class). I think it is interesting as it is at least letting the choice to the pax.

I don't think this new offer will generate lots of additional revenue for AF but at least the frequent P travelers will be able to get some kind of intermediate flying experience when they are going to a destination without P and therefore keep a more positive idea on AF overall flying experience.

Also I think some large company could use this as an incentives when they are inviting VIP customers.

PS I was told that there is for AF only 150 pax regularly flying P

For passengers who normally fly P but cannot on their route, the ability to confirm P ground services at time of ticket purchase would be important.

For me personally, if I could do this with DL miles, especially on a BE TATL ticket on DL connecting to AF in J/C intraEurope, I would do it at least once for the experience.

For passengers who normally fly P but cannot on their route, the ability to confirm P ground services at time of ticket purchase would be important.

For me personally, if I could do this with DL miles, especially on a BE TATL ticket on DL connecting to AF in J/C intraEurope, I would do it at least once for the experience.

It seems to be bookable only a week before departure...

It seems to be bookable only a week before departure...

You can book it two weeks before the flight through a travel agent.

It seems to be bookable only a week before departure...

You can book it two weeks before the flight through a travel agent.

I know. This is why I made the comment that it would be more appealing if it could be confirmed when booking the flight.

I find the travel agent rule strange as most airlines seem to be discouraging the use of travel agents and want to encourage everyone to book from their own websites.

I know. This is why I made the comment that it would be more appealing if it could be confirmed when booking the flight.

I find the travel agent rule strange as most airlines seem to be discouraging the use of travel agents and want to encourage everyone to book from their own websites.

Air France is entitled to provide the same features they offer online to travel agents. That's why such paid options are always available through TA's as long as your TA knows the procedure.

57,000 miles per passenger

Just to put it in perspective...

For 85,000 LH miles I can get access to the Lufthansa First Class Terminal in FRA, but that then includes an intra-European flight in Business Class and a transatlantic flight in First Class. Paying 2/3 of that, 57,000 miles, just for the ground experience is utterly ridiculous...

(85,000 LH miles is what is needed for a one-way transatlantic F class award ticket)

Just to put it in perspective...

For 85,000 LH miles I can get access to the Lufthansa First Class Terminal in FRA, but that then includes an intra-European flight in Business Class and a transatlantic flight in First Class. Paying 2/3 of that, 57,000 miles, just for the ground experience is utterly ridiculous...

(85,000 LH miles is what is needed for a one-way transatlantic F class award ticket)

You are comparing apples with oranges. The F one-way award ticket for a TATL is 125k FB miles, so 57k it's not even half of it. I guess I am one of the few here on FT who thinks that 57k miles is a reasonable amount...

(85,000 LH miles is what is needed for a one-way transatlantic F class award ticket)
You need to add the fuel surcharge on each segment, intra-European + TATL.

You need to add the fuel surcharge on each segment, intra-European + TATL.

You're absolutely right, about EUR 250. So:

First Class Terminal visit: 57,000 miles
Intra-European C flight + transatlantic F flight: 28,000 miles + EUR 250

You're absolutely right, about EUR 250. So:

First Class Terminal visit: 57,000 miles
Intra-European C flight + transatlantic F flight: 28,000 miles + EUR 250

err, you mean 85,000 miles, right?

You are comparing apples with oranges. The F one-way award ticket for a TATL is 125k FB miles, so 57k it's not even half of it. I guess I am one of the few here on FT who thinks that 57k miles is a reasonable amount...

The more relevant comparison would be how much you need to fly to earn the miles.

Are you seriously saying that you consider the lounge visit to be almost half the "value" of a transatlantic flight in F?

err, you mean 85,000 miles, right?

57+28 = 85...

For 28,000 miles and EUR 250 more than just the 57,000-mile lounge experience you get also the flights.

57+28 = 85...

For 28,000 miles and EUR 250 more than just the 57,000-mile lounge experience you get also the flights.

OK, sorry for misunderstanding your meaning.

The more relevant comparison would be how much you need to fly to earn the miles.

Are you seriously saying that you consider the lounge visit to be almost half the "value" of a transatlantic flight in F?

I was primarily saying that your comparison of miles needed for a P seat on LH and AF makes no sense at all. As for a relevant comparison, your second proposal about number of miles needed to fly is also inadequate. In addition to the ratio of 57k to the number of miles needed for P seat, one would also have to take award seat availability, not to mention product quality.
To make it more complicated, on many TATL routes AF has a first cabin. Hence the offer to use the P lounge at CDG is unavailable.

Can someone remind me how many miles did one need to upgrade on CDG-SFO from from J to P? I already asked that in post #9, but noone replied.

Can someone remind me how many miles did one need to upgrade on CDG-SFO from from J to P? I already asked that in post #9, but noone replied.The smart Alec answer is: "too many" ;). The slightly more useful one is, AFAIK, 75K one-way.

Priceless and probably a Top 10 all time, when it comes to stupid offers by airlines. I also love the desperate attempt to make it rare and more special...

I just hope, but I am not sure that this is not another childish idea to increase revenue instead of cutting cuts from the ground up.

A quick reminder for AF:

Instead of overcharging passengers ( especially in premium classes ) for more convenient transfers through your main hub, I suggest to kick some butt when meeting the airport authorities to streamline the process.

I was primarily saying that your comparison of miles needed for a P seat on LH and AF makes no sense at all. As for a relevant comparison, your second proposal about number of miles needed to fly is also inadequate. In addition to the ratio of 57k to the number of miles needed for P seat, one would also have to take award seat availability, not to mention product quality.
To make it more complicated, on many TATL routes AF has a first cabin. Hence the offer to use the P lounge at CDG is unavailable.

Can someone remind me how many miles did one need to upgrade on CDG-SFO from from J to P? I already asked that in post #9, but noone replied.

Okay, let's stick to apples then:

If I buy a transatlantic AF business class ticket I can get the P lounge experience at CDG for an added 57,000 miles.

If I get a transatlantic AF business class award I need to spend 50,000 FB miles. For 75,000 miles more I would get a first class award.

So, the difference between J and P ground services at CDG is priced at 57,000 miles. The difference between J & P seating and service on the flights is priced at 18,000 miles (75-57).

You are right, my original comparison makes no sense. Using a better comparison the offer is even more ridiculous. (Yes, I do realize that this does not work on the exact same flight since you need P class to get a P award and you need "no P" class for the ground offer, that availability is limited and so on, but still...)

This is a fair comparison. Using BA award, it is only 70,000 miles for a Cathay F ticket Hong Kong- Paris. 57,000 miles for just the P lounge at CDG ??? OK, I have to add €108 in tax and surcharge, but I enjoy 13h in my private suite with Krug. While the wines served in P lounge are pretty basic.

I was primarily saying that your comparison of miles needed for a P seat on LH and AF makes no sense at all. As for a relevant comparison, your second proposal about number of miles needed to fly is also inadequate. In addition to the ratio of 57k to the number of miles needed for P seat, one would also have to take award seat availability, not to mention product quality.
To make it more complicated, on many TATL routes AF has a first cabin. Hence the offer to use the P lounge at CDG is unavailable.

Can someone remind me how many miles did one need to upgrade on CDG-SFO from from J to P? I already asked that in post #9, but noone replied.

Do they even offer a P cabin on CDG SFO ? Dont think so ...

From my understanding, a PAX in the P lounge costs roughly 600EUR to AF. So that would be a 200EUR income for AF per pax.

I might have cost them more when I kept drinking champagne for 3-4 hours ;) Honestly, 800 EUR is insane and 57k miles is a C-class o/w award tix to the US :eek: This is overpriced IMO. 30k miles or 400 EUR might be o.k. if you really want it.

Do they even offer a P cabin on CDG SFO ? Dont think so ...

They don't (except last summer when they flew the route with the A380).

How much do FBEs pay for an upgrade to P? 100k miles? The 57k miles charge seems to me quite reasonable, but I would not fork out 800 euros for this. Though when you consider that P costs twice as much as J, then 800 euros makes sense.
AF now hides this info. But it used to be 75K to the US, one way. That values the inflight upgrade (seat, food, service) at 18K. But of course, we are talking here about a destination without P cabin. Still, the miles valuation of one P lounge service, relative to the J lounge, seems outrageous.

AF now hides this info. But it used to be 75K to the US, one way. That values the inflight upgrade (seat, food, service) at 18K. But of course, we are talking here about a destination without P cabin. Still, the miles valuation of one P lounge service, relative to the J lounge, seems outrageous.

Yes, that's what I noticed on AF's and KL's websites last week! I'm rather sure the info was still there last December. I was back then checking P upgrades to LAX and NRT.

Do they even offer a P cabin on CDG SFO ? Dont think so ...

They don't (except last summer when they flew the route with the A380).

Because of this, I used it as an example of TATL where the buy P treatment at CDG offer will be available.

Okay, let's stick to apples then:

If I buy a transatlantic AF business class ticket I can get the P lounge experience at CDG for an added 57,000 miles.

If I get a transatlantic AF business class award I need to spend 50,000 FB miles. For 75,000 miles more I would get a first class award.

So, the difference between J and P ground services at CDG is priced at 57,000 miles. The difference between J & P seating and service on the flights is priced at 18,000 miles (75-57).

You are right, my original comparison makes no sense. Using a better comparison the offer is even more ridiculous. (Yes, I do realize that this does not work on the exact same flight since you need P class to get a P award and you need "no P" class for the ground offer, that availability is limited and so on, but still...)

Now that it is clarified that the upgrade is 75k and not 100k (my post #9), I agree that 57k is disproportionate. But since I hardly spend miles and have lots of them (well, that's relative, isn't it?), 57k is a 'reasonable' fraction of my balance. Thus I wonder whether, given the outrage here on FT, whether AF is primarily aiming on those who will pay in cash rather in miles.

I just got a tailored email offering me this service on an upcoming Affaires flight next week. For €800 I think I will decline.

My guess is that AF isn't concerned about revenue in this case. They announced the offer would be good for 10 customers per day, and given the reaction in this thread so far, it's dubious they'll sell that many... They might be interested into :

1. convincing a few J pax to taste the product, and as they don't know what to expect, spending 57 kmiles for this pleasure could be attractive to them (once, for the experience and bragging rights) and they won't really look into the cost (in miles).

2. perhaps a small subset of them, pleased by the P lounge, could at some point in the future pay for a P ticket.

If the offer was made to provide additional and _regular_ service to a subset of their customers (like the "rich AF fans" who fly P and feel left out when going to a J-only destination), they would not restrict the offer to 10 pax per day. If it works well, it will be more a "once in a blue moon experience" rather than a service one could expect to find for a price. This sense of rarity would appeal to the casual customer (who would think his miles are better invested if they grant him something exclusive).

I think you have characterized it perfectly Richelieu

May I respectfully disagree?
AF does care badly about revenues given its sore state of affairs. Ten times 800 times 365 days is close to 3 million, not negligible.
Besides the very-exceptional pax who wish to taste the P ground service at CDG for a huge cost (say one pax per week?), all users will be the "rich AF fans" as described by Richelieu. Those officials or movie/sports stars who are deprived of F on those flights. Given the extremely low loads in F (except for pilots family and opups) it is doubtful that they could find 10 of those on a given day. I believe that the "ten" figure is just marketing blabla.

May I respectfully disagree?

Unfortunately, I just discovered FT policy hasn't yet forbidden disagreeing with me. I am sure this will be addressed soon, though :) Disagreement Licence will from that point be sold for a measly 800 € (up to ten posts a day). Don't hesitate to be part of this exclusive club!


AF does care badly about revenues given its sore state of affairs. Ten times 800 times 365 days is close to 3 million, not negligible.

They are desperate for money, but not that desperate I think. You're assuming they will sell 10 tickets a day for this, which I find very optimistic. In reality, only a handful of them will be sold, and most will be paid in miles. I doubt the accounting liability of miles is 57000 for 800 € so they stand to benefit less than the 800 EUR per customer.


I believe that the "ten" figure is just marketing blabla.

It will (falsely) tell prospective customer that they have the opportunity to get something exclusive. I am not sure the regular P flyers will find the ground service anything exclusive. It's good, but not exceptional, and they are used to it, so... Who could find the P product exceptional except someone who never travels in better than J ? I think they're the target of this "false capacity control" on the offer. It makes no sense for the airline to tell a movie star in J (only because AF doesn't have a P cabin to their destination) Sorry Mr MovieStar, we can't get you into the P lounge even for 800 EUR because, you know, we had 10 nobodies who paid 57 kmiles for that. But please enjoy crackers in an overcrowded Business lounge instead...

Another Richelieu was famous for jailing anyone who disagreed so I am being careful :).
I am writing this in the evening after a day at the beach and a bottle of rosé from Provence.
But I doubt that any rational person (or mildly crazy) would spend 57K for some traiteur snack and average wines. I have been to the P lounge a few times and do not find the experience worth more than a OW flight in J to USA (50K) or even a return J ticket when using promotions. If you really want to try the P experience, it seems much better to do it on a flight with P. For 125K you get the whole thing for free rather than having to pay a Biz ticket plus 57K to just get the lounge experience.

But I doubt that any rational person (or mildly crazy) would spend 57K for some traiteur snack and average wines.

That's the problem when we, mostly rational persons, are trying to understand the intended targets of these offers. They must behave very differently than us either toward money (doubtful) or miles (more probable). We at flyer talk see miles as "tickets paid for in advance", know how to use them to maximize their value, and try not to waste them. But many (business) travelers still don't have a clue, have large outstanding balances they'll mostly burn inefficiently. Maybe they could be tempted by an email from AF "hey, come in our lounge for 800 € (no way) or 57K that you happen to have on your account". If they never bothered to learn the award table, maybe they'd go for it?


I have been to the P lounge a few times and do not find the experience worth more than a OW flight in J to USA (50K) or even a return J ticket when using promotions.

The colleague I spoke of earlier in another thread was considering to burn more miles for 3 short-haul tickets worth a grand total of 63 EUR. For him, and the redemption patterns he would have if he hadn't asked for advice, the P ground experience would seems to be a tremendous deal (well, I guess he would have balked at the amount of taxes and not bought the free tickets but who know...)


If you really want to try the P experience, it seems much better to do it on a flight with P. For 125K you get the whole thing for free rather than having to pay a Biz ticket plus 57K to just get the lounge experience.

Yep. Our view is certainly distorted by our habit to use miles efficiently. I don't know how many business travelers are doing it right and how many are just wasting miles. Even paying for first class award ticket is a much debatable deal considering the quality of the P product in-flight... which seems adequately priced once you figure out that 57K of the price is for the ground service ;)

Here are some more words from the email I got.

Pour cela, merci de bien vouloir compléter le formulaire d'inscription. Veuillez cependant noter que le nombre de places éligibles à cette offre est limité. Nous vous contacterons par téléphone dans les 5 jours précédant votre départ pour vous informer de la possibilité ou non de vous faire bénéficier de cette offre.

So you have to apply to see if you get the chance to spend €800. It must be marketing. They cannot have actually thought that lots of people would take this offer each day. I'll bet days go by without anyone taking up the offer.

I am writing this in the evening after a day at the beach and a bottle of rosé from Provence.


Worth much more in my humble priority list than the whole AF ground services offer (and much less dear from a strictly financial perspective too!) ;)

I am I freely admit an Air France/CDG virgin but, I think it may be possible to cobble together a similar or better experience than offered by AF for the ludicrous F ground upgrade price of 800 euros (1600 for myself and Mrs YULBean).
The Sheraton is offering the following:
“Reconnect with our VIP Day Offer, with rates from €399
Be sure you will relax between two flights and choose our VIP Day Offer: we will make everything simple, from the moment you’re landing to the hotel.
Arrival Concierge Services: welcome just outside the plane, priority passage at the immigration and customs desks, luggage carrying, escort to the hotel
At the hotel, you will enjoy a Junior Suite, to have a rest or to quietly work
Benefit from 10% discount off our laundry services
20% discount off food & beverage at the hotel (except mini bar)
Departure Concierge Services: pickup at the hotel, priority passage at the safety and police checks, escort to the pre or post-boarding
We kindly remind you that this offer is for Day Use of a Junior Suite only, exclusively available between 09:00 am and 06:00 pm (same day arrival & departure, not for overnight stay).”
This offer seems to encompass everything offered by AF with added privacy of being able to bonk, fart belch and scratch to my heart’s desire. I wish I could take advantage of the 10% discount on laundry services and send my birthday suit for a quick press to remove the wrinkles. The only downside is the added expense of room service which is adequately covered by the disparity in cost.
The only advantage of the AF offer is that I can use it as a decoy in the continuing domestic battle over budgetary restraint.

Flying CDG-ORD next week and just got the offer. Rather bizarre, since I have a 65-minute connection from LHR to ORD at CDG. Who on earth would pay EUR800 for something they can use for less than an hour?

I just got a tailored email offering me this service on an upcoming Affaires flight to CDG next week. I will definitely decline. The P lounge is quite nice but not really exceptional. Given 90mins transit time only not worth the miles.

Might be expensive but:
-The experience is better than say; LH, NH, LX and TG on the ground
-The ground experience in La Premiere is better than the air experience.

If spending miles, on the ground is maybe a better option (that is, if the air portion is paid by someone else)

La Première at CDG is better than the TG and LH ground experience at their respective hubs?

La Première at CDG is better than the TG and LH ground experience at their respective hubs?

I found it to be better, yes, and I was a little surprised by that.

I found it to be better, yes, and I was a little surprised by that.

I agree for TG lounge (which is open to all *A F class pax), although the full body massage is unmatched. But the food in LH F Lounge in FRA is amazing and I find the various services they offer better than AF P lounge.

TG F massage is excellent indeed but I was not thrilled by LH F lounge food: it was very good but not special. AF F food however is exceptional compared to anything I have tried, CX HKG F lounge, SQ private room etc. For the bar, LH is amazing at least regarding alcoholic drinks, I don't remember about the other ones.

I very much recommend the QF F lounge in the international terminal of SYD. I just find it outstanding in every way.

Loosely translated:
Effective July 9th,
1) the offer is targeted at Club 2000 and Platinum members
2) the price structure is updated as follows:
- payment by credit card: EUR 300
- payment in miles: 40.000 miles
3) it is possible to add one guest, flying in Affaires on the same flight, who will pay the same price
4) it applies to all categories of fares: full-fare, discounted, corporate, awards
You still need to be flying Affaires on a long-haul flight with no P cabin

This is a nice improvement, which also reflects the feedback provided to Air France by FT-ers in a meeting last month. ^

Loosely translated:


This is a nice improvement, which also reflects the feedback provided to Air France by FT-ers in a meeting last month. ^

I agree. I think it is far more realistic in terms of pricing (still expensive in absolute terms but not an absurd amount for a proper 'VIP' experience on the ground) and nice to have 'something' which is exclusive to Club 2000 and Platinum members (with a guest).

Yes this is an improvement for sure. My next two AF flights do have a first class though so I don't know when I'll be able to try this out. And tomorrow I'm on BA where I will get the full first class experience, both on the ground and in the air, for a total of 25K miles upgrade from my discount business class ticket. So there is still room for improvement at AF!

This is a nice improvement, which also reflects the feedback provided to Air France by FT-ers in a meeting last month. ^

This is very good news indeed ^
I have a flight in J (without P offered for this route) at the end of the week, so I'm thinking about it :cool:
Do we need to receive an e-mail from AF about this (as this was mentioned in the rules of this offer - see post #1 of this thread), or can we just call Le Club and book this ?
Also, could somebody remind me about the restaurant inside La Première lounge : do they serve food at any time or just at meal times. I can't find this information on AF web site. I think they serve only at meal times (or extended meal times) - that's what I remember but I'm not 100% sure. This will have an impact on my decision ;)

This is very good news indeed ^
I have a flight in J (without P offered for this route) at the end of the week, so I'm thinking about it :cool:
Do we need to receive an e-mail from AF about this (as this was mentioned in the rules of this offer - see post #1 of this thread), or can we just call Le Club and book this ?
Also, could somebody remind me about the restaurant inside La Première lounge : do they serve food at any time or just at meal times. I can't find this information on AF web site. I think they serve only at meal times (or extended meal times) - that's what I remember but I'm not 100% sure. This will have an impact on my decision ;)

In their description AF say that you will receive an email inviting you to do this (if space is available) between 15 and 7 days of your trip (or if you bought your tickets within 7 days of departure date it appears on your eticket) but no harm in contacting them directly why not. It is fully refundable till the last minute (not changeable though, if you change flights you'd need to cancel and rebook).

Hey guys
So I have jumped on this offer and have booked it for an eligible flight in J on Friday :)
I have not received any e-mail, so I called AF on Sunday evening quite late, around 11pm). The AF agent was fully aware of the offer, confirmed that I was eligible for the offer, but told me that it is subject to availability (so as for the same offer for non-plat or non-club2000 at 800€). So as the P lounge was closed at the time of my call, he could not give me an immediate confirmation and told me that I would be contacted the following morning for confirmation (and payment :p). But that my request was in my file.
Indeed, AF called me on monday morning to tell me that everything was OK. I received instantly by e-mail a "voucher for services" indicating "access to la Première lounge" and mentioning my flight number, destination and date of travel. This voucher needs to be presented to AF La Première staff. So I will report to you guys next time from the lounge ;) :-::-::-::-::-:

Hey guys
So I have jumped on this offer and have booked it for an eligible flight in J on Friday :)
I have not received any e-mail, so I called AF on Sunday evening quite late, around 11pm). The AF agent was fully aware of the offer, confirmed that I was eligible for the offer, but told me that it is subject to availability (so as for the same offer for non-plat or non-club2000 at 800€). So as the P lounge was closed at the time of my call, he could not give me an immediate confirmation and told me that I would be contacted the following morning for confirmation (and payment :p). But that my request was in my file.
Indeed, AF called me on monday morning to tell me that everything was OK. I received instantly by e-mail a "voucher for services" indicating "access to la Première lounge" and mentioning my flight number, destination and date of travel. This voucher needs to be presented to AF La Première staff. So I will report to you guys next time from the lounge ;) :-::-::-::-::-:

Well done! Enjoy and do give us a full report! ^

Good job Goldorak. How early are you going to show up at the airport? 6am? :D

Hey guys
So I have jumped on this offer and have booked it for an eligible flight in J on Friday :)
I have not received any e-mail, so I called AF on Sunday evening quite late, around 11pm). The AF agent was fully aware of the offer, confirmed that I was eligible for the offer, but told me that it is subject to availability (so as for the same offer for non-plat or non-club2000 at 800€). So as the P lounge was closed at the time of my call, he could not give me an immediate confirmation and told me that I would be contacted the following morning for confirmation (and payment :p). But that my request was in my file.
Indeed, AF called me on monday morning to tell me that everything was OK. I received instantly by e-mail a "voucher for services" indicating "access to la Première lounge" and mentioning my flight number, destination and date of travel. This voucher needs to be presented to AF La Première staff. So I will report to you guys next time from the lounge ;) :-::-::-::-::-:

Well done! Enjoy and do give us a full report! ^

If we can make requests, with photos preferably:D

Good job Goldorak. How early are you going to show up at the airport? 6am? :D

:D How did you guess ?
Last time I flew P and used this lounge was to go to EZE. The flight was at 11:30 pm and I think I showed up around 5 pm to have time to enjoy everything :D.
This time, I'll not be able to spend that much time, but I should spend around 3 hrs in it. That's not too bad and of course that was part of my decision to subscribe the offer as I would have not done it if it was only for 1hr.

The 300 EUR offer is worth considering, if you have a longer layover in CDG. The 800 EUR are a joke, but if I can get it for 300 I might consider it; we'll see, if my next flight has a P cabin or not.

The 300 EUR offer is worth considering, if you have a longer layover in CDG. The 800 EUR are a joke, but if I can get it for 300 I might consider it; we'll see, if my next flight has a P cabin or not.
I completely agree with you. 300 € can be considered, while 800 is atrocious price. And even at 300, as you said, it worths it only if you have sufficient time to enjoy it. If you have only 1 hr, the J lounge is perfect for this.

I used this offer this afternoon :). I'll post a short report during the WE.

I completely agree with you. 300 € can be considered, while 800 is atrocious price. And even at 300, as you said, it worths it only if you have sufficient time to enjoy it. If you have only 1 hr, the J lounge is perfect for this.

I used this offer this afternoon :). I'll post a short report during the WE.

Waiting for your report: i also hope it will include some pictures

Dear all
as promised, here is a report of my stay in La Première Lounge :)
As said in a previous post, I decided to suscribe the new offer for platinum to have 1st class ground services at CDG when flying J on a flight without P, for 300€.
I was flying to BOS, so no P on those flights. Flight was at 7:10 pm.
This was the 3rd time I was going to this very nice 1st class lounge since it opened (although the 2 previous times, I was actually flying in P). I arrived by taxi at CDG around 3:45 pm in front of the 1st class kiosk outside term 2E. The attendant has indeed my name on his list of pax flying F this particular day (or having paid for this service like me). He took care of my luggages and bring me into the nice waiting lounge. They ask for my passport and left with my suitcase to take care of the check-in formalities. Then I was escorted through immigration and security and arrived in the lounge where I was introduced to the local staff members. The staff is really caring here and is making their best efforts to satisfy their customers :) ^.
When I arrived in the lounge, I was the only one (it was between 2 connection banks). But what is nice in this lounge is that it never get crowded (for this stay, there was a maximum of 6 people). The 1st time I used it (Christmas 2009), there were maybe 20 pax in it. Here are a few pics of the 2 main seating areas and of the resting area (some of these pics were taken during this trip, some others were taken during a previous trip last october).
Seating area #1
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/goldorak-albums-la-premiere-lounge-cdg-picture4283-seating-area1.jpg

Seating area #2
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/goldorak-albums-la-premiere-lounge-cdg-picture4284-seating-area2.jpg

Seating area #3
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/goldorak-albums-la-premiere-lounge-cdg-picture4285-seating-area3.jpg

Resting area
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/goldorak-albums-la-premiere-lounge-cdg-picture4281-rest-area1.jpg

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/goldorak-albums-la-premiere-lounge-cdg-picture4282-rest-area2.jpg

I decided to start the hard life with a cup of champagne rosé. Here is a picture of the bar
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/goldorak-albums-la-premiere-lounge-cdg-picture4275-bar.jpg

And I ordered some food (I was starving as I skipped the lunch on purpose ;) ). As you may know, the staff is from Plazza Athènée Alain Ducasse restaurant in Paris. Here are the menu (sorry the quality of pics is not so good) and pics of the buffet and dining area :
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/goldorak-albums-la-premiere-lounge-cdg-picture4278-dining-area.jpg

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/goldorak-albums-la-premiere-lounge-cdg-picture4276-buffet.jpg

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/goldorak-albums-la-premiere-lounge-cdg-picture4279-menu1.jpg

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/goldorak-albums-la-premiere-lounge-cdg-picture4286-menu2.jpg

As I didn't want to take a 3 course menu, for the apetizers, I took some nice looking cold cuts from the buffet. Then I ordered some Saint Pierre fish (coming with various vegetables and sauteed spinachs) and a chocolate praliné cake for dessert. Everything was delicious. Here are some pics (for the main course, sorry, when I thought to take a pics for my future FT report, I already started to eat, so the dish looked much nicer when they bring it :D ). I decided to continue with Champagne rosé during the meal instead of taking some wine.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/goldorak-albums-la-premiere-lounge-cdg-picture4280-main-course.jpg

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/members/goldorak-albums-la-premiere-lounge-cdg-picture4277-dessert.jpg

"Unfortunately", my flight was leaving from main pier of 2E, so no limo transfer :(. Around 6:30 pm, the person who will accompany me to the plane advised me that boarding has started and that he will come to pick me up in about 15 min, which he did. I was the last to board in J after having been introduced to the crew. I took my seat in the nose of the 744 (I really like this front nose area of the 744). Flight was completely packed in J and Y, and has been very pleasant and uneventful, with a very nice crew (as in 99% of cases).

As a whole, a very nice experience, IMO at an adequate price for plat members (otherwise forget about the 800 €), as long as you can spend enough time in the lounge.
The only negative point, compared to my previous stays in this lounge, is that the massage service stops now at 4:30 pm :(. So all pax flying P in flights departing late from CDG (EZE, PVG, SIN, HKG, GRU, NRT, etc) cannot enjoy anymore massages. That's a bad decision IMO.

Thank you to AF La Première staff who are doing a great job ^

Bonjour Goldorak,

Thank you for sharing.

I feel like the wave of departures at 1900 is quite nice, not as many passengers for sure.

The palet praline La Premiere is absolutely original and beautiful.

J'ai faim !

Dear all
as promised, here is a report of my stay in La Première Lounge :)


Thanks for your report.

I also left a report in the trip reports forum which included to visits to the La Premiere lounge, and La Premiere in the 77W and A380.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-reports/1363902-air-france-la-premiere.html

Thanks for your report.

I also left a report in the trip reports forum which included to visits to the La Premiere lounge, and La Premiere in the 77W and A380.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-reports/1363902-air-france-la-premiere.html

Great report ^. Thank you very much :)

Since april 22, this lounge is open to everybody flying in business on a flight without P (and not only to club 2000 and Platinum), for €300 or 40 000 miles

Since april 22, this lounge is open to everybody flying in business on a flight without P (and not only to club 2000 and Platinum), for €300 or 40 000 miles

Thanks for the update. I think that if my flight is one of those from the M gates, I wouldn't bother with this lounge. The M lounge is nice enough as it is. But are there are any flights from the other terminals that have P? The next long haul flight I have booked is on a 747 so no P. :(

When you pay for "La Premiere service" you are driven by car to your plane directly from the lounge (excepted, as Goldorak said, when the plane is near the lounge...2 times for me to EZE and ICN last year :td:) Hall M is far enough to need a car!

Since april 22, this lounge is open to everybody flying in business on a flight without P (and not only to club 2000 and Platinum), for €300 or 40 000 miles

So, no more discount for plat/Club2000 ? Because, this lounge was already open to everybody flying in business on a flight without P but the fee was € 800, excet for plat/Club 2000 for which it was €300.

So, no more discount for plat/Club2000 ?...
AFAIK not a discount but a new price in july 2012, but always targeted to Plat and C2000
Now in 2013 this service is open to everybody at one price.

So, no more discount for plat/Club2000 ? Because, this lounge was already open to everybody flying in business on a flight without P but the fee was € 800, excet for plat/Club 2000 for which it was €300.

Exactly, always a reason to feel a little less special as platinum. AF-kl don't like us... :(

Exactly, always a reason to feel a little less special as platinum. AF-kl don't like us... :(

It's not as if they are taking anything away from Platinum members ;). And IIRC, many posters have deemed the EUR 800 price as something they would never consider purchasing. So I would rather say that after one year of experience, AF has an offer that is more in line with customer expectations.

It's not as if they are taking anything away from Platinum members ;). And IIRC, many posters have deemed the EUR 800 price as something they would never consider purchasing. So I would rather say that after one year of experience, AF has an offer that is more in line with customer expectations.

I agree with everything you say above, but remember that they originally "sold" the special rate for Platinum members as a way to give their "best customers" privileged access to upgraded luxury, and I did not mean my comment above entirely as a joke (although partly so): elite membership used to be one of the elements supposedly taken into account for upgrade priority, now, as far as I know, when upgrades are sold for a fee by invitation, there is still no priority ("first refusal" if you will) to Platinum members. Access to the better lounge for a fee was discounted for Platinum members. Now the price remains the same for us but becomes the same to everyone else, so there is no longer a priority for Platinum people and indeed, as the P for a fee experience has always been limited to a specific number of people on a given day, it may well be less available to Platinum members. This is just in the same way as making 'special seats' available for a fee to everyone has limited (free) access to them to Platinum members. So there is implicitly a cost in AF decision, and while I welcome them realising the fact that their proposed pricing was completely at odds with the market value of the P lounge experience (however excellent), if they move to €300 for everyone, it wouldn't be absurd to lower it to €200 or 150 for Platinum members to show that they still have an easier access to a better flying experience. I wouldn't mind the P lounge fee to be the same if, say, Platinum members had systematic first refusal to flight upgrade offers (which I believe is much more important) but the accumulation of a large number of "egalitarian" measures does contribute to making the Platinum status less special.

AFAIK not a discount but a new price in july 2012, but always targeted to Plat and C2000
Now in 2013 this service is open to everybody at one price.

Hmmm unless I forgot something, this paid service was already available to anyone flying J on a flight without P at 800€, except for Plat/Club2000 to whom it was proposed at 300€. So now, it is the same price for everybody : 300€.

Hmmm unless I forgot something, this paid service was already available to anyone flying J on a flight without P at 800€, except for Plat/Club2000 to whom it was proposed at 300€. So now, it is the same price for everybody : 300€.

The AFKL.biz pdf below (july 2012... sorry, in french) do not mention "anyone flying J..." but only C2000 and Platinum, an exclusive offer proposed by Flying Blue.
https://www.afkl.biz/FR/fr/local/promosactualites/commercialnews/PDF/Acces_service_Premiere.pdf
So today, is the end of that "privilege"