U.K. and Ireland - A global icon is reborn: Londoners meet city's new $36,000 per seat red bus

MSNBC: A global icon is reborn: Londoners meet city's new $36,000 per seat red bus (http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/02/10553382-a-global-icon-is-reborn-londoners-meet-citys-new-36000-per-seat-red-bus)

I always try to make sure my visitors get to ride on one of the classic buses. Definitely not a cheap update!

:)

LONDON – London's red double-decker buses are as globally recognizable as New York's yellow cabs, so there was dismay when the city's classic Routemaster vehicles were phased out six years ago.

This week's launch of a modern version of the bus – the first designed specifically for the U.K. capital since the original was introduced in the 1950s – has proven the double-decker is more than just a way of getting around.

The prototype features the same distinctive curves as its post-war predecessor, as well as the hop-on, hop-off rear platform used by impatient Londoners when stuck in traffic jams.

It's hardly fair to include all the design & engineering costs of an entirely new bus in the "cost per seat" calculation.

Obviously the cost per unit will come down dramatically if/when it goes into mass production.

This is like saying the first 787 cost $32 billion.

some local views on its first day of operation:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/davehillblog/2012/feb/27/boris-johnson-new-london-bus-first-passenger-day

It's hardly fair to include all the design & engineering costs of an entirely new bus in the "cost per seat" calculation.

Obviously the cost per unit will come down dramatically if/when it goes into mass production.

This is like saying the first 787 cost $32 billion.

Well time will tell, if you watched the video it suggested that if Boris loses to Ken in May then no more will be built so I guess then it will be possible to calculate cost per seat based on the 8 that were built.

Do we like the new bus? The old Routemasters were refurbed when Ken bought them all back prior to replacing them with bendy buses. Could they not all have been re-engined and given a ground up overhaul back then rather than getting replaced with bendy buses?

Then getting rid of the bendy buses and temporarily replacing them with regular double deckers pending the introduction of the new Routemaster. Perhaps the "cost" of the new Routemaster when you factor in the last 10 years of frivolous bus decisions is even higher.

Do we like the new bus? The old Routemasters were refurbed when Ken bought them all back prior to replacing them with bendy buses. Could they not all have been re-engined and given a ground up overhaul back then rather than getting replaced with bendy buses?


While 50-year-old Routemasters have novelty and sentimental value, bringing them up to environmental, accessibility, and comfort standards comparable to this new bus would require a very substantial re-engineering. I strongly suspect its cheaper just to build a new one.

The old Routemasters were refurbed when Ken bought them all back prior to replacing them with bendy buses. Could they not all have been re-engined and given a ground up overhaul back then rather than getting replaced with bendy buses? I think the 38 was the only route where Routemasters were directly replaced with bendy buses.

Lovely as the old Routemasters were, they're really not fit for purpose these days - not very accessible, cramped, and draughty. And you need to pay for a second member of staff.
Compare with a modern low-floor double decker, with air conditioning, two doors, and wheelchair ramps. They don't look quite as nice, but they do their job very well.

Then getting rid of the bendy buses and temporarily replacing them with regular double deckers pending the introduction of the new Routemaster. Perhaps the "cost" of the new Routemaster when you factor in the last 10 years of frivolous bus decisions is even higher.The ridiculous decision was Boris's plan to complete debendification by the end of 2011. He's had to cancel contracts early with bus operators to get rid of bendy buses, no doubt incurring penalty clauses.

I'm not sure if he's ever claimed he wants to replace the entire fleet with the New Bus for London; just to get a handful of them on the streets to see how they go. Expect all 6 to be running by March 20th, which is when the election purdah period begins.

While 50-year-old Routemasters have novelty and sentimental value, bringing them up to environmental, accessibility, and comfort standards comparable to this new bus would require a very substantial re-engineering. I strongly suspect its cheaper just to build a new one.

I am not convinced. The mid 90's refurbed Routemasters were up to a standard of comfort and safety of comparable modern double deckers of the time. Environmentally I am sure a new engine could have been designed at less than the cost of designing a whole new bus. I think the issue is accessibility and the perceived safety of jump on jump off. But this perception has shifted somewhat and now the new Routemaster is jump on jump off again I think the only reason they couldn't have updated the old Routemaster is that they no longer have them as they were foregone for the sake of bendy buses which had better accessibility.

I think the 38 was the only route where Routemasters were directly replaced with bendy buses.

What about the 73? Was that not a bendified Routemaster route?

Lovely as the old Routemasters were, they're really not fit for purpose these days - not very accessible, cramped, and draughty. And you need to pay for a second member of staff.

The new Routemaster has a second member of staff too right?

Compare with a modern low-floor double decker, with air conditioning, two doors, and wheelchair ramps. They don't look quite as nice, but they do their job very well.

I agree, I don't know why it wasn't possible to design a variant of a modern bus that tipped its hat to the Routemaster with some design nuances in the same way as the VW Beetle, BMW Mini and Fiat 500 do.

The ridiculous decision was Boris's plan to complete debendification by the end of 2011. He's had to cancel contracts early with bus operators to get rid of bendy buses, no doubt incurring penalty clauses.

I applaud debendification, I wonder where all the bendy buses have gone to now.

Environmentally I am sure a new engine could have been designed at less than the cost of designing a whole new bus.

Only if you could find an off-the-shelf engine that could be easily made to fit (and transmission, hybrid energy storage and recovery, etc). If not, its *much* cheaper to design a new vehicle around a modern engine platform than it is to design a new engine to fit an old vehicle!!

The new Routemaster has a second member of staff too right?


It can operate either in 3 door mode, with a conductor, or in 2 door mode without conductor for off-peak periods.

Only if you could find an off-the-shelf engine that could be easily made to fit (and transmission, hybrid energy storage and recovery, etc). If not, its *much* cheaper to design a new vehicle around a modern engine platform than it is to design a new engine to fit an old vehicle!!

Well yes, if you are specifically looking for a hybrid engine option, but regular double deckers are not hybrids so this is a requirement over and above what London already has.

They re-engine diesel and electric trains in the UK with more efficient engines, so surely a bus. I accept though that for a hybrid re-engine then this would no doubt not be practical

regular double deckers are not hybrids so this is a requirement over and above what London already has.

Actually London already has 250+ hybrids in service, with all new busses to be hybrids by the end of 2012.

Various routes are already operated exclusively by hybrids:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/2019.aspx

Actually London already has 250+ hybrids in service, with all new busses to be hybrids by the end of 2012.

Various routes are already operated exclusively by hybrids:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/2019.aspx

Wow I stand corrected, thanks for the link

What about the 73? Was that not a bendified Routemaster route?I stand corrected, you're right. The point still stands that most Routemasters were replaced with OPO double deckers, and some other OPO routes were changed to bendies.
I applaud debendification, I wonder where all the bendy buses have gone to now.
I never had that much of a beef with bendy buses - aside from being a muggers' paradise on the N29.

Some of London's old ones were sent to Malta, where they're even less suited to the roads (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/13/london-bendy-buses-malta). I've spotted one sneaking out of Ash Grove depot newly decked out in Bristol Park & Ride colours, and a couple more are operating staff shuttles in the Olympic Park.

I never had that much of a beef with bendy buses - aside from being a muggers' paradise on the N29.

Exactly! People focus on their inability to navigate the narrow streets, the fare dodgers and their 18m length being too much for a cyclist to pass without it moving again. But they were exactly that muggers' paradise to which you refer. My experiences mainly on the 25, it was scumtastic of a Saturday afternoon running between Oxford St and Ilford.

From a cyclist perspective. The bendy buses were longer than the bus stops and a couple of times I rode straight into women alighting in the cycle lane at Holborn Circus.

Some of London's old ones were sent to Malta, where they're even less suited to the roads (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/13/london-bendy-buses-malta). I've spotted one sneaking out of Ash Grove depot newly decked out in Bristol Park & Ride colours, and a couple more are operating staff shuttles in the Olympic Park.

Poor Malta! I didn't think the bus operating companies owned the buses. I actually had East London Buses take one out of service for me at Stratford depot so I could take some measurements for my fare dodging defence at Stratford magistrates. The East London bus guy there told me that they cannot fix the design flaw upon which I blamed my failure to pay as they don't own the buses, they only operate them.

Lovely as the old Routemasters were, they're really not fit for purpose these days - not very accessible, cramped, and draughty.
I actually agree with you - not to mention that they had exactly eight inches between the edge of a seat and the seat in front. Legroom was non-existent.

And who can forget the conductor bellowing "Only five standing!"? Time after time people were left at bus stops after waiting for ages as the old Routemasters could only hold what seemed like about twelve people before filling up.

And riding on the upper deck was like being in an iron lung.

The ridiculous decision was Boris's plan to complete debendification by the end of 2011. He's had to cancel contracts early with bus operators to get rid of bendy buses, no doubt incurring penalty clauses.
Has this cost been publicised?

Exactly! People focus on their inability to navigate the narrow streets, the fare dodgers and their 18m length being too much for a cyclist to pass without it moving again.
I get the feeling that was just the tip of the iceberg. Once listening to Boris on the Vanessa Feltz show, he moaned that apparently the yoofs these days quite regularly referred to the bendy bus as the "free" bus. Apparently up to one in ten passengers was without a valid ticket.

My experiences mainly on the 25, it was scumtastic of a Saturday afternoon running between Oxford St and Ilford.
Having spent uncountable hours on the 25, I can assure you that it was not just Saturday afternoon that it was scumtastic. :D

Poor Malta!
On Vanessa Feltz's show, I heard Boris refer to the decent citizens of Malta as "Maltesers". :D

Has this cost been publicised?

I did try asking them (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/phasing_out_of_bendy_buses) last year, but they didn't know yet. Perhaps I'll try asking again.

I love those hydrogen-powered buses. You don't end up with a mouthful of exhaust when walking past one.

I love those hydrogen-powered buses. You don't end up with a mouthful of exhaust when walking past one.

I'm not sure any buses on the road are hydrogen powered?? That technology is not as yet safe. Hybrid buses use diesel fuel, but not all the time, hence fewer (but not zero) standard emissions.

tb

I'm not sure any buses on the road are hydrogen powered??

Actually yes, there are a small number in service - try route RV1 (Tower to Covent Garden via the south bank).

Actually yes, there are a small number in service - try route RV1 (Tower to Covent Garden via the south bank).The RV1 has used Hydrogen buses in the past, but isn't currently. You can see one of the odd-looking fuel cell buses on London Bus Routes (http://www.londonbusroutes.net/photos/RV1.htm).

As regards safety, the GLA say Hydrogen is no more dangerous than conventional fuels (http://www.london.gov.uk/lhp/hydrogen/index.jsp).

I love those hydrogen-powered buses. You don't end up with a mouthful of exhaust when walking past one.

Must be a mouthful of water then! :D

They re-engine diesel and electric trains in the UK with more efficient engines, so surely a bus. I accept though that for a hybrid re-engine then this would no doubt not be practical

They did re-engine a number of the Routemasters in the early 2000s. The ones left running the heritage routes are those ones. Mechanically, they are effectively early-2000s Dennis Darts with a Routemaster integral body.

Neil

On Vanessa Feltz's show, I heard Boris refer to the decent citizens of Malta as "Maltesers". :D
It's ok, Prince Phillip is slowing down these days, so the country needs a new, effective multi-cultural ambassador to welcome the world to London and the Olympics.

We Maltese have heard it all before (we're known our honeycomb centres; and you can make a Maltese Cross by stamping on our feet.) However, although BoJo may appear to be a court jester, he could probably run the Maltese bus network better than the disastrous change-over to Arriva that we've just witnessed. Sadly our heritage buses (in Malta and Gozo) have been replaced by new Chinese models....

...and before you think of it, you can't offload your bendy buses on us as they wouldn't fit on most of our roads. Didn't they end up in Sheffield or somewhere anyway?

I saw one as it drove past me on Friday and, I have to say, it looked very interesting. There's something very corporate, very samey about the current buses - I think, essentially, that they are utilitarian vehicles designed only to do a utilitarian job. At first glance, this bus looked like something that we Londoners can grow fond of. That's all assuming it does the job well, of course.

(re: the cost of withdrawing bendy buses before the end of their contract)
I did try asking them (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/phasing_out_of_bendy_buses) last year, but they didn't know yet. Perhaps I'll try asking again.

A snip at £2.2m (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/early_withdrawal_of_bendy_buses#incoming-267763).