Europe - Netherlands: Coffeeshops not open for tourists anymore [edit: but not everywhere]

Foreign visitors will be banned from cannabis-selling coffee shops in southern Netherlands from January 1 to combat anti-social behaviour among tourists.
The Dutch justice ministry announced the ban after a consultation period and despite opposition from some MPs who branded the move 'tourism suicide'.
Under the new policy licenced coffee shops will be considered private clubs with a maximum of 2,000 members limited to Dutch residents who are older than 18... [...].

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-2061730/Dutch-cannabis-coffee-shops-ban-tourists-January-1-new-ruling.html

according to some french news newspapers, this will start on may 1st.

AFAIK, this has already been in force in a number of municipalities for some time. The legality was tested before the courts but the ECJ found it compatible with EU law.

AFAIK, this has already been in force in a number of municipalities for some time. The legality was tested before the courts but the ECJ found it compatible with EU law.

yes, but starting may 1st it's nationwide. It wasn't enforced in the past and Belgian and German residents were allowed. they are no longer.

Correct. In the beginning it was just for cities near the border. From now on it's in the whole of Holland and one needs a 'cannabis-card' to buy the stuff.

Well, Germans will have to start driving to Czech instead for their fix.

Based on my last stroll through Amsterdam, there are places you could inhale sufficient pot smoke to get high just standing on the sidewalk. We just walked through the neighborhood near the Dam, and I could smell it on my jacket later on. A bit worrying considering we were flying back to the U. S. the next morning - I hoped CBP would not be employing the Beagle Brigade when we landed. :p

Well, Germans will have to start driving to Czech instead for their fix.
In all honesty, do you think that those who used to drive to the Netherlands will now drive to the Czech Republic just for marijuana in a coffee shop? It seems an awfully long way to go in the opposite direction.

My gut would say (and you surely know better) that the most regular visitors from DE to NL were those within a couple hours' driving distance of the border. And that is a hell of a long way from the Czech border. Am I wrong to think that many people just won't bother?

They will get it. Illegally.

I would be willing to bet this is going to go widely unenforced, especially in Amsterdam in the beginning. I have visited AMS several times as a beer tourist and nothing in the CS scene seemed any different last August as it did in 1999 (at least from what I could tell walking by ;)). I can't imagine that entire subculture going away overnight.

In all honesty, do you think that those who used to drive to the Netherlands will now drive to the Czech Republic just for marijuana in a coffee shop? It seems an awfully long way to go in the opposite direction.

My gut would say (and you surely know better) that the most regular visitors from DE to NL were those within a couple hours' driving distance of the border. And that is a hell of a long way from the Czech border. Am I wrong to think that many people just won't bother?

My comment was actually meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but in reality, depending where you live in Germany, a couple hours from NL in one direction is a couple hours from CZ in the other. From FRA it may be a four hour drive across northern Bavaria into Bohemia, and there you are. I would think that casual smokers would probably not do it so often, but make a trip out of it. The '-bad' towns of western Bohemia are popular tourist destinations for Germans in any case.

"yes, but starting may 1st it's nationwide."

Yes its confusing. And yes there is a lot of info out there that says one thing and then says something completely different.

But this is not starting nationwide on May 1st. Of that I am sure.

Now as far as next year (2013) and Amsterdam I would not bet the farm. But as far as 2012 the coffeeshop scene in AMS will be pretty much as it always has been.

I am not talking about the border towns.

I am going to take a wait and see attitude on this but if I really wanted one last Amsterdam trip with coffeeshops open to all------I just might do it in 2012.


2013 looks like a crap shoot to me. No telling what the laws will look like.

As far as buying though? Even after 2013? With all those local growers? MJ will be there.

In the streets and in the parks and in the bars. And likely much cheaper.

Correct. In the beginning it was just for cities near the border. From now on it's in the whole of Holland and one needs a 'cannabis-card' to buy the stuff.

Not true. For the year 2012 and for most parts of the country (including Amsterdam) everybody (above the age of 18) can freely buy weed, marihuana and hasjish.
What will happen in 2013 is not yet known, but there is huge opposition from the saner politicians in this country, and the sane members of the population, to this stupid new law that will greatly increase the drug problem.

Not true. For the year 2012 and for most parts of the country (including Amsterdam) everybody (above the age of 18) can freely buy weed, marihuana and hasjish.
What will happen in 2013 is not yet known, but there is huge opposition from the saner politicians in this country, and the sane members of the population, to this stupid new law that will greatly increase the drug problem.


Bingo. An accurate post.

I would add though that hash is very much under attack. And I would not be surprised to see it off the menu in a year or two. Why? Because virtually all hash is imported.

And all imported stuff is illegal.

I would also add that some coffeeshops (Barneys for one) has raised their age to buy. To 21 I believe. This is not a law. Its just a decision the cs owners have made.

I have no doubt the cs scene will change. But the question is exactly how and where.

It would be a shame to see those dealers you now really only see around a few of the RLD bridges selling what they claim to be coke, and horse, etc to be found all over the city in a year or two.

And all over the city is exactly where you will see the dealers if the weedpass law is introduced in AMS.

This will kill tourism to the Netherlands. No offense to the Dutch, you have a great country, but with this law in effect I'd see little reason why people would choose to go to Amsterdam over, say, Berlin or Munich or.. almost anywhere in Western Europe. Sorry if my opinion offends anyone (but it's just an opinion lol).

This will kill tourism to the Netherlands. No offense to the Dutch, you have a great country, but with this law in effect I'd see little reason why people would choose to go to Amsterdam over, say, Berlin or Munich or.. almost anywhere in Western Europe.

I agree... partially. I still think Amsterdam is worth at least one visit. But I do think that the number of "repeat visits" will go down pretty fast.

"This will kill tourism to the Netherlands"


.

I first went to AMS because of the coffeeshops. I still go back because of the cs's. But I think this quote above is only an opinion. And I am not sure its a correct one.

I have no doubt that many a large convention is not planned for Amsterdam just because of its MJ and RLD reputation. And even missing on a few large conventions is big bucks.

Something that may change if AMS really gets serious about cleaning things up. Or gives the impression of cleaning things up.

Most stoners I know or see on various forums tend to be budget visitors more so than not. So yes many a 1 and 2 star hotel might see a down turn in business. But the Marriott and the Hilton may see an upturn.

The fact is none of us know. We can only guess. A serious study done by professionals would be needed to have any real insight into this. That and some actual historical data.

The coffeeshop owners in Tilburg and Maastricht aren't taking this lying down
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2012/03/tilburg_joins_in_court_effort.php

Very interesting thread; it's even more interesting to have some of our Dutch friends chime in. (Dank je wel!)

I agree with the fact that tourism in Amsterdam will likely suffer. It's not just hotels though; many other businesses will see a downturn in revenue. It will be interesting to see if Amsterdam will eventually manage to get the law reversed or be granted some sort of exception. I wouldn't be surprised if another city in Europe picks up the relay (Prague seems a likely candidate).

I think that Amsterdam will find a way to keep the cs scene going. It represents real revenue to the city and is in their best interest to keep the tourist dollars/yen/rubles/pounds/euros flowing in. I agree that closing the coffeeshops and "cleaning up" the city might result in a few more conventions, I think the overall impact would be much, much larger. When you see hotels and apartment rentals charging the top rate for the week of the Cannabis Cup in November -- more than in peak of summer -- then you get an idea of the volume of tourists this brings in.

I do think that the country overall will find a way to stop the Belgian and Germans from driving in and generally limiting the coffeeshops that have become widespread in most towns -- but I think Amsterdam in it's free spirit will find a loophole.

"week of the Cannabis Cup in November -- more than in peak of summer -- then you get an idea of the volume of tourists this brings in. "


Noah, with respect I strongly disagree with this.

I follow Amsterdam hotel issues, PL, and general AMS advice all the time for a different forum.

And the Cup has never been a bad time as far as hotel rates.

And most people in town, as I have been myself, hardly can tell that the cup is on unless you just run into a few groups of yanks (and others) or end up in the wrong coffeeshop at the wrong time.

If you want to know bad as far as hotels then look at the tulip season, Queens day time frame, mid summer, New Years, Pride to some extent, and the worst of all by far------the IBC convention in Sept.

Did I mention how hard it was to find a hotel during the IBC?

Even in towns outside Amsterdam?

No one who has an option should ever consider the IBC time frame for coming to Amsterdam. Its not just the cost. Which is beyond expensive. Its even finding a room.

All from one convention.

Other conventions also show up from time to time and make it hard hotel wise.

The Cup is just not nearly close to those events in terms of hotel costs. And years of following this on a daily basis gives me the confidence to say so.

I hope the coffeeshop culture lives long and prospers.

But Amsterdam will not greatly suffer if us yanks and others cannot buy in a coffeeshop.

Others will make up for us. And maybe then some.

Noah, a little more about the impact of the Cup.

November is normally a very slow time in Amsterdam. And the record high number of those that signed up as "judges" for the Cup is 2300. Mostly stoners and IMO on a budget for many.

Most I would assume from out of country.

The IBC brings in 50,000 business people or professionals on expense accounts And they come from 160 countries.

The amount of money generated for Amsterdam by the IBC, just one conference, is staggering.

For the Cup-----not so much.

Unless you own a coffeeshop or one of those 1 and 2 star stoner hotels-----and of course FEBO.

If I owned the Marriott or Hilton or an upscale eatery, or those expensive shops people shop in, I would be praying for another IBC or two.

I might not even know what the C. Cup was.

If you cut off the coffee shops, you will return to the three to four dealers a block pestering you about buying hash and pot. The situation in the late 70s was a PITB. My friends and I would go to A-dam for a long weekend and continually get approached by drug dealers. My last trip to A-dam, two years ago, the dealers were gone, the place was rife with CS with a peculiar odor to them, and you could avoid it if you wanted.

I do suspect the Zoll police sitting on the Aachen border will welcome the ban if it truly takes place. They spend hours stopping cars coming back across the border, looking for the imported tobacco.

Of course, nothing is going to stop people from buying it, it is still a matter of control.

tim in san jose

Thanks all. I was doing an event in Amsterdam in November and looking for a number of apartment rentals. Every place I looked was charing more for the week of the cup than the week before -- in some cases by 2x -- so I assumed that was consistent with hotels as well. I suppose just the apartment market?

I was also at IBC the last few years and agree that is the absolute best time to stay away if you aren't there for the show. But worth pointing out that several coffeeshop owners said that they also get busier for IBC than a regular week.

I have an example of how this will effect tourism. I used to work for a company called EF College Break, who brings groups of students to Europe (literally thousands per year). And Amsterdam is the highlight of most of their Europe trips. Why? Because college kids love weed. Not all obviously, but this is a HUGE selling point for the trip. Half the kids on my 50 person 25 day Europe trip went because Amsterdam was on the itinerary. Sure they can smoke at home, but to buy it legally and smoke it anywhere makes it a utopia for some.

Now take marijuana out of the equation. You take a trip like London-Amsterdam-Paris... Now, it's not going to be as appealing as London-Paris-Barcelona, London-Paris-Munich, or Dublin-London-Paris. That's just my personal opinion. EF and other tours will stop featuring Amsterdam as their big seller. That is just one small way that tourism in Amsterdam could take a dive, one of many.

"I have an example of how this will effect tourism. "


And you could well be correct.

But right now just an interesting discussion. We will only know for sure some years after the law change----if it ever truly changes.

And then we will have to measure all the changes that happened. Neg as well as pos changes.

Those tours? Sure legal coffeeshops are a draw. But if the laws do change there will be an outlaw mj culture that will explode. Grass will still be there. And it likely will be cheaper.

Plus there is always the RLD. There is always the darkrooms. There are even museums.

Amsterdam will have a draw. Legal coffeeshops or not.

It will definitely have an impact on a certain type of tourism.

Let's not forget that the vast majority of tourists to the Netherlands don't come for the weed and other smokes. They come for the tulips, the windmills, the museums, the architecture, for the beach (yes, for some 20 million Germans the Dutch beaches are the nearest ones from home), for water sports (sailing, also many, many Germans), for cycling holidays, etc.

The typical drug tourist in Amsterdam today is Spanish, Italian or French, staying in a very cheap hostel, buying food in the supermarket and arriving by cheap bus or cheap flight. The euro-income from these people is relatively low. Economically, we would rather have a Russian, Chinese or Brazilian shop for diamonds, art or other expensive stuff.

But still I hope the city of Amsterdam will find a way to ignore or circumvent this stupid law. Or I may find myself a new job re-selling weed on the street......:p

This will kill tourism to the Netherlands. No offense to the Dutch, you have a great country, but with this law in effect I'd see little reason why people would choose to go to Amsterdam over, say, Berlin or Munich or.. almost anywhere in Western Europe. Sorry if my opinion offends anyone (but it's just an opinion lol).

Do you really believe the american college kids who come to AMS to smoke up really bring that much money? After being with some of them who believed it was their right to smoke wherever they wanted to in AMS this doesn't surprise me one bit.
Cheers
Howie

It will definitely have an impact on a certain type of tourism.

Let's not forget that the vast majority of tourists to the Netherlands don't come for the weed and other smokes. They come for the tulips, the windmills, the museums, the architecture, for the beach (yes, for some 20 million Germans the Dutch beaches are the nearest ones from home), for water sports (sailing, also many, many Germans), for cycling holidays, etc.

The typical drug tourist in Amsterdam today is Spanish, Italian or French, staying in a very cheap hostel, buying food in the supermarket and arriving by cheap bus or cheap flight. The euro-income from these people is relatively low. Economically, we would rather have a Russian, Chinese or Brazilian shop for diamonds, art or other expensive stuff. We visit the Netherlands every couple of years for the flowers (trying to get to Floriade this year) and after my last experience in Amsterdam, I doubt we'll visit that city again, much as I used to love it. While the sale of pot may be confined to the cs, the stoners aren't. Some of the areas I loved in the '80's now have that funny smell wafting from every third doorway, men in serious need of soap and water peeing the street and vomiting on the sidewalk, and the internet cafe we used was sandwiched between two cs and REEKED of it.

What type of tourist is more valuable to the city? Four drug tourists sharing a room in a * hotel and eating on the cheap? Or a family that stays in a *** or **** property, dines in restaurants and pays attraction fees? I think the pragmatic Dutch will give that question serious consideration.

On a somewhat different note, what happened to shopping in Amsterdam's center city? Last fall we saw a lot of empty store fronts between the cs's, and fewer stores catering to "real people" instead of the tourist trade.

We visit the Netherlands every couple of years for the flowers (trying to get to Floriade this year) and after my last experience in Amsterdam, I doubt we'll visit that city again, much as I used to love it. While the sale of pot may be confined to the cs, the stoners aren't. Some of the areas I loved in the '80's now have that funny smell wafting from every third doorway, men in serious need of soap and water peeing the street and vomiting on the sidewalk, and the internet cafe we used was sandwiched between two cs and REEKED of it.

On a somewhat different note, what happened to shopping in Amsterdam's center city? Last fall we saw a lot of empty store fronts between the cs's, and fewer stores catering to "real people" instead of the tourist trade.

I think on your last visit you must have visited a rather small part of the city along the tourist stretch (Damrak, parts of the red light district). There are other, large parts of the city with few coffee shops and without "that funny smell wafting from every third doorway".

The city government is cleaning up the red light district (they want fewer prostitutes, fewer coffee shops and fewer shops that cater exclusively to tourists) which may explain that in that process you saw a lot of empty store fronts. Already, art galeries and fashion shops are opening in properties that before only housed whores.

"Some of the areas I loved in the '80's now have that funny smell wafting from every third doorway, "


Funny, over 20 trips to Amsterdam, and most for 2 weeks. I walk the centrum 5-6 hours a day every day.

I almost never smell mj smoke when I am walking.

Sure the odd wiff now and then. From someone on the street or from a locals house. But hardly ever do I run into it on the street. Even down in the RLD. Like I said now and then. Except of course if I decide to stand in front of a coffeeshop.

I think what you claim to see is not what others I know have seen and reported. Most of the time we tell newbies how out of place public smoking is and how you rarely see it.

Interesting that you see it everywhere.

I think on your last visit you must have visited a rather small part of the city along the tourist stretch (Damrak, parts of the red light district). There are other, large parts of the city with few coffee shops and without "that funny smell wafting from every third doorway". Yup, on that trip we had just one day in Amsterdam after 10 days elsewhere in NL/Belgium. We started near Centraal Station and walked from there, toward the Jordaan, toward the Beguinhof, to the Poozenboot, near the Damrak. Saw Occupy Amsterdam, saw a carnival in the city center.

I never said we made a comprehensive examination of the city; we certainly didn't. But most tourists will spend much of their time in canal belt and near the Damrak - where we were. We needed an internet cafe, and spent quite a while trying to find one that would allow a child (several internet cafes we passed were also MJ cs's and did not allow kids) and internet cafes seem to be in a specific neighborhood which also seems to be where the cs's were; I've never seen an internet cafe next to a ***** hotel.

But I saw and smelled more pot in that one day than on several previous, longer trips to Amsterdam combined.

Of course, it could have had something to do with the weather - it was a warm, sunny day and every place had their windows and doors open. Usually we go early in the Keukenhof's season, and it's too cold for open windows.

To 3recondoc: I suggest you re-read my previous post and see if the word "everywhere" actually appears in it. You might actually see that I was much more specific and said "Some of the areas I loved in the '80's" - kinda like you actually quoted!

I posted my personal experience, if yours is different, well, that's nice, but it does not negate what I experienced. And if you think nobody is smoking pot in public, spend some time in the tram queues near the train station and you might see and smell things that will surprise you.

My wife and I will be doing a 1 day visit to AMS. We are actually going to the ZBF festival in BRU, and doing a side trip to AMS. I decided to do this now while AMS still has some of its old time flair. We are both NON smoker, and do not do drugs, but are wondering if it is still safe to walk around, stop by a cs, visit the red light district, check the sights, etc.

My wife and I will be doing a 1 day visit to AMS. We are actually going to the ZBF festival in BRU, and doing a side trip to AMS. I decided to do this now while AMS still has some of its old time flair. We are both NON smoker, and do not do drugs, but are wondering if it is still safe to walk around, stop by a cs, visit the red light district, check the sights, etc.

Amsterdam is safe. Just take care of your belongings as you would do in any city. Have a nice day and welcome to Amsterdam.

"Some of the areas I loved in the '80's now have that funny smell wafting from every third doorway, men in serious need of soap and water peeing the street and vomiting on the sidewalk, and the internet cafe we used was sandwiched between two cs and REEKED of it."


Every 3rd door way? That for sure is a lot of pot smoking----nothing like I have seen anywhere in Amsterdam.

But if it is true and not a made up story then you are complaining about the locals that live there. Or the smell that will come from an actual coffeeshops.

I also do not understand how you smell people on the street? 20 plus trips and I have never walked up to someone on the street and smelled them. I may see the homeless and assume some things. But I never actually got close enough to see first hand. Like you have.

I think you are making that up. Or you are sticking your nose where it does not belong :-)

And the folks you see peeing in the street and throwing up are no doubt drinkers. There are a lot of people that hit one pub after another.

And groups of drunks walking the center, especially on the weekends, is a sight we have all seen more than a few times.

I think yours was an anti-pot post and had very little to do with what those of us that go to Amsterdam all the time actually see.

And if you are really not going to go back because of a few wiffs of a sweet smelling smoke, you found only in a few areas -----then the city was not all that important to you in the first place.

I've been to Amsterdam once, and quite frankly could not possibly care less about the coffeeshops or doing drugs. I am aware that, as a student, I'm part of a minority who doesn't see the appeal of doing drugs.
but anyway, while I was in Amsterdam (about 2 years ago now), I came across the occasional coffeeshop, but I did not find that disturbing at all.
That said, I agree with what was said about the drug tourists usually either staying in a cheap hotel/hostel rather than the more upmarket places. I've actually found most drug tourists (from within Europe) just come by car (usually a cheap old French car, like a Peugeot 105) and also take a generous supply home.

CDTraveler, I really think that you're overstating it. I usually fly through AMS and always try to have a long layover so I can go for a walk in the city. This happened some 30+ times and I've also visited the city on several occasions. There are some areas (e.g. some small alleys) where you can smell mj, but it's not nearly as bad as you make it sound. I have yet to see someone randomly puking or peeing in the street.

It's hard to make a comparison to "some of the areas" that you loved some 30 years ago. It may very well be that you don't remember very well or simply that times change and very few places on this planet are the same as they were 30 years ago. Often when remembering a place you link that to an experience, and the experience itself can make it good or bad. Going back to places I LOVED when I was a teenager, I saw them very differently as an adult. It could be that as well.

What type of tourist is more valuable to the city? Four drug tourists sharing a room in a * hotel and eating on the cheap? Or a family that stays in a *** or **** property, dines in restaurants and pays attraction fees? I think the pragmatic Dutch will give that question serious consideration.

You're making some assumptions here which are not necessarily true:
- ALL drug tourists are all a bunch bundled up in a cheap room and only eat from grocery stores
- every "drug tourist" comes for the sole purpose of drugs; nothing else
- all "families" (as you put them) stay in more expensive hotels and spend more money
- "families" and drug tourists are mutually exclusive (everything is either black or white)

I think you are wrong in all those assumptions. I know quite a few "serious, responsible adults" (for the lack of a better term) who have visited Amsterdam not for the drugs as a primary purpose but who have indulged, being in Amsterdam. For at least one group trip that I know of (a group of some 12 friends went last year) Amsterdam got the edge because of the added option of mj. They spent plenty of money on museums, restaurants and the like and only smoked once.

I know people who would never touch mj and who stayed in a cheap hotel when visiting Amsterdam. (They don't really care about the hotel since they're there to be tourists and be out doing stuff as much as possible and really spend a minimum amount of time actually in the hotel room.)

A small business owner providing relatively cheap services (e.g. a 2 star hotel) may not be happy with his business going bust. Even if ALL the patrons were drug tourists (which can't be true), they still help some people earn a living.

You never see people getting high and getting into fights, becoming violent and causing mayhem. While that is true for alcohol, that's never a problem with stoners. They're relatively easy to deal with and their money is good for the local economy.

Amsterdam is safe. Just take care of your belongings as you would do in any city. Have a nice day and welcome to Amsterdam.

avoid the gangs.
the railroad conductors are pushing to have police on the trains as the gangs are horrid

avoid the gangs.
the railroad conductors are pushing to have police on the trains as the gangs are horrid

"Gangs"? If you mean the young men who roam the trains between Schiphol and Amsterdam looking for innocent travellers who left a bag with valuables unattended, yes that is a problem. Always hold on to your valuables on those trains, don't be distracted and you will be fine.

avoid the gangs.
the railroad conductors are pushing to have police on the trains as the gangs are horrid

:rolleyes:

I have been to Amsterdam and the Netherlands many times and ridden the trains often, and have never seen roving gangs. You just have to take the normal precautions you would on any public transportation.

:rolleyes:

I have been to Amsterdam and the Netherlands many times and ridden the trains often, and have never seen roving gangs. You just have to take the normal precautions you would on any public transportation.

this year, i met a roving gang on the train ride in from the airport filled with tourists and one dutch couple. general harrassment and asking for money. dutch couple called the police. the gang ran off when they did this. the police was waiting at the station. the dutch couple was very apologetic and wished all the tourists a better journey in their wonderful country.

BREAKING NEWS: Amsterdam mayor Mr Eberhard van der Laan has confirmed that Amsterdam's coffeeshops will remain open to tourists. (link in Dutch (http://www.nu.nl/politiek/2947696/toeristen-blijven-welkom-in-coffeeshops.html))
The new Dutch government which will officially start work on Monday 5 November, had decided to abolish the "weed pass" (an ID allowing one to buy weed, only available to locals)
The new government's plans still include a "locals only" clause, but local governments may have their own interpretation on what is a "local", and Amsterdam's mayor has now confirmed that tourists are locals, too. ;)

Have merged the threads on this topic for ease of future reference, and updated the title to better reflect the current situation.

stut
Co-Moderator
Europe Forum

Thanks for the update, Sjoerd! ^