Air New Zealand Air Points - Airpoints Upgrades Gone!

AIR NEW ZEALAND CHANGING THE WAY AIRPOINTS DOLLARS™ UPGRADES ARE REQUESTED AND ONEUP™ ENHANCED TO INCLUDE GDS BOOKED CUSTOMERS

For travel from 30 May 2012, customers who are booked via a GDS, on flights where there are premium cabins, will be eligible to make bids for upgrades using Air New Zealand’s OneUp™ programme. At the same time Airpoints Stand-by and Confirmed upgrades will be replaced by OneUp™.

OneUp™ is an offer-based upgrade system that allows customers to choose how much they are prepared to pay for an upgrade and make an offer on that basis. OneUp™ offers can be made for a ‘single class’ upgrade, i.e. from Economy to Premium Economy or from Premium Economy to Business. To be eligible, the upgrade offer needs to be submitted to Air New Zealand at least seven days prior to flight departure. Customers can choose whether to pay with Airpoints Dollars™, debit card, credit card or Travelcard.

Airpoints members who book through a travel agent will be able to request a OneUp™ upgrade via myairnz.co.nz or as a travel agent you can make an offer on their behalf using an online form which is currently under development. This online form will be available at airnzagent.co.nz by 30 May2012.

Recognition upgrades are not affected by this change and can be requested as they are today. Likewise, Airpoints Standby and Confirmed Upgrade requests received prior to 30 May 2012 for travel after 30 May 2012 will not be affected and will be treated as they are today.

Exit strategy anyone? We have repeatedly stated that the only value of Airpoints is upgrades. Now they have taken the one and only good thing about Airpoints away. It doesn't mention how it will affect Gold Elite members but in any case, this is our worst nightmare. Time to say good bye to NZ.

Not a surprise the way the airline managers were taking Airpoints eg. Onesmart.
I would see very few of the FTers remaining with Airpoints as their FFP after this change has been implemented.
IMO this is a very big :td: for frequent flyers and another reason why I have stopped flying NZ internationally.

Not unexpected. AirNZ jumped the shark long ago. :(

At least I'm rolling banked GE years for the foreseeable future so don't have to fret about crediting to NZ and re-qualifying (though it would seem that there's not much to look forward to, even as one of AirNZ's "elites").

Makes my JQ status/miles domestic NZ mileage run slightly more palatable, as I also lean more to QF. What to do with my measly balance of 35APD ..?

Makes my JQ status/miles domestic NZ mileage run slightly more palatable, as I also lean more to QF. What to do with my measly balance of 35APD ..?

Throw them on a one-up! :D

Oh very droll....... ;)

Now all the Airpoints feartures can be replaced by cash and they are taking away all the meaningful elite benefits. Airpoints does not need to exist anymore. The next step for them should be exiting *A and declaring themselves as a LCC.

I am also starting to understand why Simon had left NZ and feel like we owed him an apology.

Christopher Luxon, the new long haul GM, introduced UK Airport tax on Airpoints Upgrades and One-up not long after this appointment. Is this his doing as well?

[QUOTE=Xiaotung;18106390][I]AIR NEW ZEALAND CHANGING THE WAY AIRPOINTS DOLLARS™ UPGRADES ARE REQUESTED AND ONEUP™ ENHANCED TO INCLUDE GDS BOOKED CUSTOMERS

For travel from 30 May 2012, customers who are booked via a GDS, on flights where there are premium cabins, will be eligible to make bids for upgrades using Air New Zealand’s OneUp™ programme. At the same time Airpoints Stand-by and Confirmed upgrades will be replaced by OneUp™.

Sorry, but what does 'GDS' stand for in this context?

What's the rationale for this? I can't really see much benefit in doing it except saving a few $$ on catering?

[QUOTE=Xiaotung;18106390][I]AIR NEW ZEALAND CHANGING THE WAY AIRPOINTS DOLLARS™ UPGRADES ARE REQUESTED AND ONEUP™ ENHANCED TO INCLUDE GDS BOOKED CUSTOMERS

For travel from 30 May 2012, customers who are booked via a GDS, on flights where there are premium cabins, will be eligible to make bids for upgrades using Air New Zealand’s OneUp™ programme. At the same time Airpoints Stand-by and Confirmed upgrades will be replaced by OneUp™.

Sorry, but what does 'GDS' stand for in this context?

Global Distribution System. This is an email sent to travel agents. We consumers do not need to know that.

The next step for them should be exiting *A and declaring themselves as a LCC.

I agree... except NZ doesn't really know how to behave like a LCC. They only know the fee structure.

Look at their entry fares to DPS... a good LCC would have used the sales launch as a marketing promotion, with a few $300 fares thrown in to entice. Instead NZ prices themselves out of the market in an effort to work down the demand curve rather than influence it (JQ Biz cheaper than NZ Works deluxe!).

So I fail to see any reason to go out of my way to fly NZ except compulsion where they have monopolies.

Sayonara NZ... I'm switching to UA or US.

Just curious ok. That means even the top elites don't have standby/confirmed upgrades anymore? So what is the dfference between a Jade member who bids compared to a GE member - and if the Jade member offers a higher bid?

Is this only for travel agents or all members in general?

Exit strategy anyone?

On second thought, yes... the value of switching APD upgrades to one up is twofold:

1) higher income for NZ if supply << demand and oneup nets average upgrade cost greater than old APD upgrade rates

2) information asymmetry. we don't know what average upgrade costs will be so they hope we'll overpay.

We can control (2), by publishing successful one-up bids. And information asymmetry must be the extra value NZ sees in oneup, because otherwise they'd simply increase the cost of APD upgrades.

Airpoints does not need to exist anymore.

The other day I had a thought about the AirNZ CCs ...
With the OneSmart card now. Generally AirNZ CCs like GlobalPlus etc. they pay you $1 per $100 spent or $1.50 at best.

Why not just get a non airline CC with a 1% real money cashback programme. And you are not limited to where you can spend that.

The annual fee is lesser.
Sure you don't get $250 SPs or Platinum Koru discounts......

I also note that you can't use Oneup to upgrade from Economy to Business. So if you want business cabin you will need to purchase at least premium economy.

Note this in the email:
OneUp upgrades are only available to the next service class of travel up. For instance, if you're flying Economy, you'll move to Premium Economy, or from Premium Economy to Business. If the applicable flight does not offer Premium Economy class your upgrade will move you from Economy into Business class.

this is the absolute pits. And what does this mean:
• Your Gold Elite status will be taken into account when your OneUp Upgrade offer is reviewed.

So there are no more advance confirmations of upgrades?

what a disaster

On second thought, yes... the value of switching APD upgrades to one up is twofold:

1) higher income for NZ if supply << demand and oneup nets average upgrade cost greater than old APD upgrade rates

2) information asymmetry. we don't know what average upgrade costs will be so they hope we'll overpay.

We can control (2), by publishing successful one-up bids. And information asymmetry must be the extra value NZ sees in oneup, because otherwise they'd simply increase the cost of APD upgrades.

I wonder what this will mean for the likes of myself who enjoys using a comp u.g for me and standby ug for my wife on same PNR??? Will I have to consider myself lucky if I am the winning bidder for her seat, rather than my status helping her to get it cleared?? Smells like another un-thought thru plan on Air NZ part.

this is the absolute pits. And what does this mean:
• Your Gold Elite status will be taken into account when your OneUp Upgrade offer is reviewed.


I think it means even if a Jade member beat you by $1 you will still lose out. Your status will be taken into account only when there is a tie. So much for our loyalty.

I guess I'm going to start travelling to the US via Australia henceforth as attaining Platinum on Virgin looks to be far more beneficial for my circumstances than maintaining GE on NZ. Customer loyalty is a two way relationship and after years of (blind) loyalty to NZ I feel well and truly taken for granted and marginalised.

Details are on the website now:

http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/air-new-zealand-airpoints-upgrades

Read 'em, weep, and start hoping QF offers a status match - they've got an attentive audience

So for those of us that have already requested Comp/Recognition Upgrades and APD upgrades for flights after 30 May 2011....will these be taken into account before One-Ups?

Well, that settles it. Time to find a new airpoints programme. I'm thinking maybe OZ.

Now all the Airpoints feartures can be replaced by cash and they are taking away all the meaningful elite benefits. Airpoints does not need to exist anymore. The next step for them should be exiting *A and declaring themselves as a LCC.

I am also starting to understand why Simon had left NZ and feel like we owed him an apology.

Christopher Luxon, the new long haul GM, introduced UK Airport tax on Airpoints Upgrades and One-up not long after this appointment. Is this his doing as well?
You keep mentioning that NZ should leave *A. Why? There is absolutely no reason for them to, costs one off and recurring would more than outweigh the benefits.

Yes you do owe Simon an apology but do not include all of us in it.

A poster in the know months ago stated that Simon wanted to improve Airpoints but was over turned by the airline managers. The last 6 months are the result of that decision.

Well, that settles it. Time to find a new airpoints programme. I'm thinking maybe OZ.
Still debating resuming OZ or US I have not decided.
Problem for me has been is WLG-NSN etc really worth it?

You keep mentioning that NZ should leave *A. Why? There is absolutely no reason for them to, costs one off and recurring would more than outweigh the benefits.

They should leave *A in that they are becoming a LCC and a LCC will not meet *A requirements.

Well, this explains why they didn't seem to worried about the ability for OneSmart card holders to purchase AP dollars so easily and then used them for standby/confirmed upgrade, as the upgrades were about to be canned anyway!

I think it means even if a Jade member beat you by $1 you will still lose out. Your status will be taken into account only when there is a tie. So much for our loyalty.

One smart way of doing it would be to automatically build in an absolute or relative boost to one's bid based on status. Of course with no details, and AirNZ's communications over the past two years being confusing at best, we're all in the dark.

it is surely a dark day for *G and *E on AirNZ (myself included)

totally agree that *E status would not be recognised here in the same way (that is, you will not be in front of the queue if you got beaten by what another person was offering)....

but I am curious... would there be a minimum for upgrades? the reason I ask is.. there are so many blank seats on TT flights (at least for the ones that I was on J)... would they be accepting upgrades using $50 or $10 (going wild here) to get the extra revenue? coz at the moment there it requires 250 for a standby upgrade, which can be steep..... but I guess it would not be as bad if I use, say a small portion of it?

they must begin to see that there are less and less pax getting premium fares coz they are so very expensive and also they can top that up via oneSmart so it is changing..

Well this does it for me as well - I had been enjoying excellent success at getting standby u/g's cleared well in advance and was quite happy with that.

Between my employer's paying for J trips and my own out of pocket travel, I guess I have to now think about whether to credit to US/UA or just go the Virgin route that others have mentioned. I'm not so keen on QF esp as they have been so actively withdrawing from NZ but I do have lifetime Gold with AA so that may be an option.

Another good lesson in impermanence, eh?

And if I've got this right it sucks big time for us Aussies... we can't even GET this "one up" account (residents of NZ over 16 only?).. so the only $$ we'll have to bid with are A$ earned on flights...

..and we'll be bidding against folks who can top up? :confused::mad:

And if I've got this right it sucks big time for us Aussies... we can't even GET this "one up" account (residents of NZ over 16 only?).. so the only $$ we'll have to bid with are A$ earned on flights...

..and we'll be bidding against folks who can top up? :confused::mad:

You have the option of paying on a credit card OR with Airpoints

So for those of us that have already requested Comp/Recognition Upgrades and APD upgrades for flights after 30 May 2011....will these be taken into account before One-Ups?


"Note that we will review all requests for Airpoints Standby and/or Confirmed Upgrades that we receive before 30 May 2012 according to the Airpoints terms and conditions that are in effect on the day we receive the request, even if the request relates to travel after 30 May 2012."

I agree... except NZ doesn't really know how to behave like a LCC. They only know the fee structure.

Look at their entry fares to DPS... a good LCC would have used the sales launch as a marketing promotion, with a few $300 fares thrown in to entice. Instead NZ prices themselves out of the market in an effort to work down the demand curve rather than influence it (JQ Biz cheaper than NZ Works deluxe!).

So I fail to see any reason to go out of my way to fly NZ except compulsion where they have monopolies.

Sayonara NZ... I'm switching to UA or US.

I've been circling the wagons with the cold heart that releases seats over the July school holidays for DPS. Aforesaid person releases 1 seat at a discount but try and book 3 and it goes to the next fare class. Changes during the day with regular monotony. This morning, nothing low cost going over but 2 low cost DPS-WLG on last day of holidays. Nicely, they quote in USD and then convert at a much better rate than if you look as a return booking. Checked again 30 minutes after getting management approval [plan was to go WLG-AKL-PER-DPS by AirNz/VA across] and all gone. Then cold heart had change of heart and released one. So, booked 1 seat at 528 USD [seat plus bag reasoning GE luggage would be enough for three of us], and the other two on separate PNR for wife and daughter at 577 USD. Then the game changed and three 679 one way from WLG-DPS popped up so grabbed then. So return trip all sorted.

Got into MyAirNZ and requested upgrades. Applied 1 of my *GE recognition u/g and one of my wife's *G and 430 standby for daughter going over. Used my wife's other one for coming back. Checked again and both of my recognitions gone [one should still have lurked] then a nice email about bidding war came through. I'm going to gird my loins and ring premium team for a fireside chat.

If only DJ's airline partners covered East Asia.

I just got the email to me as a Gold Elite, and my reaction was "Holy sh*t! They've killed Airpoints!"

I am so happy that I dumped AirNZ for Virgin. I have 5 international trips booked for this year so far, and they are all booked through Virgin.

I did note that the status upgrades will still be handled separately. However, I doubt these will last for too many years.

This could be the end of G and GE, why pay for business class full fare when you pay for economy and put in for upgrade? You will only get economy SP's but business service for a "few dollars more".
I can see NZ execs syaing this is good we make money on 1/2 full flights by getting a few bucks for business, but now lets reduce the service in business so we can make even more money. Congrats Mr Fyfe you will leave a great legacy behind you and finally the Kiwi that could fly may be looking at losing its wings

I'm going to gird my loins and ring premium team for a fireside chat.

Seems a 'fiery' chat is more in order......

I'm stuck with Airpoints no matter what they do :(

The only positive resolution from here I would think is if GEs could only be outbid by other GEs, Gs could only be outbidded by other Gs and GEs, silvers could only be outbid by other silvers, Gs and GEs.

i.e. 5 available PE seats

Jade bidder #1 bids $500
GE bidder #1 bids $1
GE bidder #2 bids $200
G bidder #1 bids $300
Silver bidder #1 bids $300
Silver bidder #2 bids $200
Jade bidder #2 bids $1000
Jade bidder #3 bids $400
G bidder #2 bids $600

Winner of seats:

Seat 1: GE bidder #2, $200
Seat 2: GE bidder #1, $1
Seat 3: G bidder #2, $600
Seat 4: G bidder #1, $300
Seat 5: Silver bidder #1, $300

GE would still be big losers here, but I think it would be ok for everyone else.

I'm stuck with Airpoints no matter what they do :(

What about DJ Velocity?

I think you only need 50 NZ domestic sectors to reach gold, not the 80-odd you heroically endured.
Edit: This is only if you pay top $... NZ still monopolise FF credit for discounted fares.

But your point is exactly what's going through the execs minds... "hey, we're a monopoly, we don't need a loyalty programme, so let's turn it into an alternative cash flow!"

Also, how does this affect *A upgrades? Is it possible that the only way to upgrade from Y to J on NZ is by booking it codeshare with another airline?

What about DJ Velocity?

I think you only need 50 NZ domestic sectors to reach gold, not the 80-odd you heroically endured.


From memory, they removed the ability to earn on all fares. I don't think you can claim on grabaseat fares (F).... could be wrong

From memory, they removed the ability to earn on all fares. I don't think you can claim on grabaseat fares (F).... could be wrong

Yes they did, on NZ's request. F class is still accruable on TT routes.

You have the option of paying on a credit card OR with Airpoints

So much for OneSmart.

Why would you go through the trouble of converting cash to APD when you can just pay with cash?

The only positive resolution from here I would think is if GEs could only be outbid by other GEs, Gs could only be outbidded by other Gs and GEs, silvers could only be outbid by other silvers, Gs and GEs.

i.e. 5 available PE seats

Jade bidder #1 bids $500
GE bidder #1 bids $1
GE bidder #2 bids $200
G bidder #1 bids $300
Silver bidder #1 bids $300
Silver bidder #2 bids $200
Jade bidder #2 bids $1000
Jade bidder #3 bids $400
G bidder #2 bids $600

Winner of seats:

Seat 1: GE bidder #2, $200
Seat 2: GE bidder #1, $1
Seat 3: G bidder #2, $600
Seat 4: G bidder #1, $300
Seat 5: Silver bidder #1, $300

GE would still be big losers here, but I think it would be ok for everyone else.

ummmm interesting if that is the case... reading from the email again.... still cannot believe my eyes that they are doing that to air points...

"Your Gold Elite status will be taken into account when your OneUp Upgrade offer is reviewed."

so does it mean that I would still take priority if I only bid $1? whereas a Silver or Jade member might be bidding a few hundreds?

This looks like something of a cluster***k to me.

It is likely that I will continue to credit to my recently opened A3 account for long-haul Air NZ, and I'll have to sit down and figure out whether I start doing that for my domestic Air NZ flying too.

Yeah, count me in as another self-funded long haul GE bailing from a decimated FFP and sadly managed airline.

AirNZ may respond to the GE backlash by upping recognition UG's to 3 or 4 for GE's?? Who knows??

In the meantime AirNZ can stick Oneup their *A77

The other day I had a thought about the AirNZ CCs ...
With the OneSmart card now. Generally AirNZ CCs like GlobalPlus etc. they pay you $1 per $100 spent or $1.50 at best.

Why not just get a non airline CC with a 1% real money cashback programme. And you are not limited to where you can spend that.

The annual fee is lesser.
Sure you don't get $250 SPs or Platinum Koru discounts......

The same thought has occurred to me. Currently have a Westpac Titanium 'parked' while I trial the Kiwibank Gofly. Will do the sums and consider returning to Westpac when my current free Gofly runs out. With Westpac you can claim the $ back for any travel booked on the card.

Well done NZ. There's nothing useful left in the Airpoints program.

Very sad that QF pulled out of AKL-LAX. I can't wait for UA to open IAH-AKL, as I will be using that regularly.

"Note that we will review all requests for Airpoints Standby and/or Confirmed Upgrades that we receive before 30 May 2012 according to the Airpoints terms and conditions that are in effect on the day we receive the request, even if the request relates to travel after 30 May 2012."

Yeah but they look at and process One-Ups from 7 - 3 days out. There's nothing there that states they will still give Comp and APD upgrade requests priority over Oneups. Especially as they process One-Ups before Silver and at the same time as Gold comp and APD upgrades. So I can easily see them doling out One-Ups and then saying "sorry cabin is full" when they look at Silver upgrdes 48 hours out and even Gold upgrades 72 hours out.

Well said Blackcloud

Today is a very sad day for Air New Zealand.

I've sat in the Wellington koru lounge this afternoon with two execs from large NZ companies. Their view was clear. This is the biggest devalue of any airline program they have ever seen and the staff members who travel overseas with work will be penalized because they can't use their points to upgrade cabins and it's company policy to buy economy. We discussed a mass cut up of elite cards and sending them into Rob Fyfe.

In my view the buck stops with him. He runs the airline and should take full responsibility. This is a disaster waiting to happen for him and is likely to overshadow his departure from the airline.

I feel sorry for the aircrew who will just cop it on flights with grumpy elite and gold customers. Shame on you Rob for putting your staff in that position.

I personally am happy to send my elite card back in bits. Not a proud day to be a kiwi

Sure you don't get $250 SPs

That's the only reason I got an Airpoints-linked CC. The APD are not an incentive for me (and even less now). But in last three months I have earned 111SP from credit card purchases. Helps with the requal (although why, I now ask myself, given today's news).

Who knows what they were thinking. That's a horrible move by Air NZ. Now what is there to do with airpoints dollars? Following these moves, I wouldn't be surprised to see the next feature released - converting APD back to NZD.. :rolleyes:

Who knows what they were thinking. That's a horrible move by Air NZ. Now what is there to do with airpoints dollars? Following these moves, I wouldn't be surprised to see the next feature released - converting APD back to NZD.. :rolleyes:

IRD would be knocking on members' doors if that were to happen. Next moves probably would be getting rid of APD altogther and making it a status program. But who needs status when there are hardly any perks.

NZ has made itself completely irrelevant to business travelers and is clearly in a race to the bottom for the leisure market.

Good luck to them. I'm GE because of domestic travel, but I'm in Europe this week , travelled first class on SQ and LH for substantially less than an NZ business class fare.

I can't see any reason why anyone would travel premium class on NZ!

This latest insult on air points follows a long tradition of imposing death of a thousand cuts on their best customers that will only ever continue to go one way.

I will toast there health in the F lounges on my way home!

I personally am happy to send my elite card back in bits. Not a proud day to be a kiwi

Tempting--I do kind of meed my card as it gets me into the Virgin lounges here in AU (please, DJ, join *A already! I'd move the majority of my business to you in one hot minute, but I need to be with a *A member), but then Air NZ will replace if for free, at a cost to themselves. Hmmm.

Is this a moment when the onesmart APD topup backfired? In that case they should really get rid of onesmart instead of APD upgrades. Onesmart now looks like one stupid idea.

I think onesmart has given the accountants an excuse to take over. This is the start of things to come. I hear the next step is another reduction in air points on international journeys. I've decided it's Emirates for me - I already fly them over the Tasman since and now will go all the way. It's a shame there are no options to switch domestically.

JASA/FASA anyone?

I have bookings through to May that will give me GE until mid 2014; It was getting tenuous whether to continue to pursue this but with this change I doubt I will.

If I choose not to pursue GE I will make bookings to utilise the "Recognition" upgrades I'll get through then, but that will be the end of GE for me.

I may maintain *G as it's cheap and easy to earn with Air NZ, but merely for the DJ status in oz and *G status worldwide.

I suppose we need to create a new thread on recommendations for *G with other Airlines now...

What a sad day, also will have GE through until 2015 but I don't see the point continuing with Airpoints, I fly mainly domestic and a lot of regional routes, so I have no choice - the only good thing is I mainly fly on flexi-fares so getting atleast *G on another program should be attainable.

I have stumbled across this site and read with interest this topic. For me I find this change to be quite exciting as it means I now have the ability to bid for an upgrade, when otherwise I would never be in a position to secure one otherwise . I am not a high ranking AP member but now it places me in a better position to secure an upgrade at a reasonable price over those who seem to have sense of entitlement to secure something for as minimal cost to them as possible.

I bet if this were your business you would be trying to maximise your revenue opportunity too.

I doubt many would get the upgrade though. Isn't it a you submit price without seeing what else people put up :confused: So some people may paid some 000's more.

One time I was flying SQ. I had to change my dates but Y was all sold, I paid a fixed price by going to business class. Is that still possible?

I have stumbled across this site and read with interest this topic. For me I find this change to be quite exciting as it means I now have the ability to bid for an upgrade, when otherwise I would never be in a position to secure one otherwise . I am not a high ranking AP member but now it places me in a better position to secure an upgrade at a reasonable price over those who seem to have sense of entitlement to secure something for as minimal cost to them as possible.

I bet if this were your business you would be trying to maximise your revenue opportunity too.

May well be good for new customers like yourself, but what about the LOYAL GE & GOLD customers who have earned the right and should have a sense of entitlement, thats what a loyalty programme is about, rewarding its customers :confused:

I have stumbled across this site and read with interest this topic. For me I find this change to be quite exciting as it means I now have the ability to bid for an upgrade, when otherwise I would never be in a position to secure one otherwise . I am not a high ranking AP member but now it places me in a better position to secure an upgrade at a reasonable price over those who seem to have sense of entitlement to secure something for as minimal cost to them as possible.

I bet if this were your business you would be trying to maximise your revenue opportunity too.

Minimal cost? I wouldn't say the cost of getting to Gold Elite status is minimal unless you are flying all grabaseat fares which I doubt many of us would have the time to do so.

I have stumbled across this site and read with interest this topic. For me I find this change to be quite exciting as it means I now have the ability to bid for an upgrade, when otherwise I would never be in a position to secure one otherwise . I am not a high ranking AP member but now it places me in a better position to secure an upgrade at a reasonable price over those who seem to have sense of entitlement to secure something for as minimal cost to them as possible.

I bet if this were your business you would be trying to maximise your revenue opportunity too.


Oh, you "stumbled" onto the site did you? And just decided to join up today and place your first post today? On the exact day the emails went out and leagues of HVCs criticised the new system? I would be very suprised to find out that you DIDN'T work for AirNZ. LOL. :D

I bet if this were your business you would be trying to maximise your revenue opportunity too.

Yes, by retaining loyal customers who tell all their friends to book Air NZ and who continue to book it themselves even when it isn't the most direct route (think Europe to Australia via NZ--I did it last year).

Even If you don't think of loyalty as a benefit, some of your position does not make sense. If it was about maximising revenue, why not allow two-class upgrades in the scheme? As you yourself point out this is a great scheme for those who would not otherwise have a chance at an upgrade (who are also likely those who fly economy--flying premium classes is a relatively easy way to achieve and retain status), so why not try to extract extra money or APD from them with the sweetener of a lie-flat bed in business class?

I have stumbled across this site and read with interest this topic. For me I find this change to be quite exciting as it means I now have the ability to bid for an upgrade, when otherwise I would never be in a position to secure one otherwise . I am not a high ranking AP member but now it places me in a better position to secure an upgrade at a reasonable price over those who seem to have sense of entitlement to secure something for as minimal cost to them as possible.

I bet if this were your business you would be trying to maximise your revenue opportunity too.
Wecome to FlyerTalk Smoocha you probably will be flamed for that posting but I believe that you are they type of customer that NZ was thinking about when they did this change.
For GE passengers this is a huge blow as they could have received confirmed upgrades at a cheap cost, and they could really game the system. For all others I think it is an equal playing field as they could bid whatever they thought the upgrade was valued at. NZ would earn a higher "revenue" as you can ony go one class up, was previously possible to go two, so I think the overpriced PE class will become more popular.
With the number of competitors, not only for flights but also FFP, around, NZ will suffer from the loss of a number of informed status flyers but it is very much YMMV as to the best value one but they are banking on increased revenue from its leisure traveller base. For the past year I increasingly lost faith in Airpoints as it appeared every month, after constant delays, we have seen the benefits of status erode away and NZ announcing the change in strategy of "fly to earn" to "earn to fly".

Just got confirmed from NZ that all Standby and Recognition Upgrades will be given priority over One-Up bids.

Just got confirmed from NZ that all Standby and Recognition Upgrades will be given priority over One-Up bids.

What's standby? Are they both coml. upgrades?

Be interested to know what higher status get now if they get anything with if G/GE bids with One-Up. Like if a Jade member have a higher bid.

Going over that standby/confirmed upgrade table, me thinks the successful bids will be more than than standby and more towards the confirmed rates.

If those employers are paying for Y, would PE be more now. Less on business.

Just got confirmed from NZ that all Standby and Recognition Upgrades will be given priority over One-Up bids.

But I thought standbys weren't going to exist anymore.

This page says standby/confirmed won't exist anymore come that date:
http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/frequent-flyer-booking-benefits#advanced-seat-request

Compl. upgrades.
One-Up bid - people get notified between 3 and 7 days if they get it.
Gold - 72hr.
Silver - 48hr.

Does that mean they both loose out, they only get it if any left over or if they placed some aside for G/S members?

Gold Elite still have that 300 odd date advantage to use their compl. upgrades.

Just got confirmed from NZ that all Standby and Recognition Upgrades will be given priority over One-Up bids.

If One-up bids are confirmed at least 3 days in advance, how would NZ*S recognition upgrades be prioritised over them?

well this to me is the final nail in the coffin. I think now I'm going to change my ANZ visa platnium to an ANZ qantas visa platnium if it still exists....

If One-up bids are confirmed at least 3 days in advance, how would NZ*S recognition upgrades be prioritised over them?

Maybe that person wasn't aware of this new change? And thought it was as per of yesterday :rolleyes: Maybe if they had seats left over and/or not bidded with the min price...

If One-up bids are confirmed at least 3 days in advance, how would NZ*S recognition upgrades be prioritised over them?

The agent checked with a supervisor and specifically said all standby upgrades (and recognition) would take priority over One-Ups.

This blatantly is about getting more money and so Air NZ will be inventory managing comp upgrades like they do today. I've heard that there will be minimum bid amounts which are about twice as expensive as today's standby Airpoints upgrades and so don't expect to get $1 upgrades. This is a sign of a desperate airline

I've also heard Qantas off the back of this are about to offer a status match for gold and elite which Air NZ have handed them on a plate. This is the worst PR disaster for Air NZ

well this to me is the final nail in the coffin. I think now I'm going to change my ANZ visa platnium to an ANZ qantas visa platnium if it still exists....

It does, I got mine 3 weeks ago, and the 10,000 points joining promo has been extended as well.....

I've also heard Qantas off the back of this are about to offer a status match for gold and elite which Air NZ have handed them on a plate. This is the worst PR disaster for Air NZ

I never thought this day would come. Probably would give oneworld a try after all. It would be a blow to Virgin as well to some extent as all ex NZ elite will be taking QF flights within Australia.

Fastest growing thread I have ever seen. On page 6 in less than 8 hours which is telling.

The agent checked with a supervisor and specifically said all standby upgrades (and recognition) would take priority over One-Ups. She put a note in my booking that she had advised me of this.

I don't get how they'd practically do this. Would they really set aside some seats for recognition upgrades from NZ*G and NZ*S whilst processing the OneUp bids?

I don't get how they'd practically do this. Would they really set aside some seats for recognition upgrades from NZ*G and NZ*S whilst processing the OneUp bids?

They'd just process recognition and standby's first then accept the highest one-up bids after that. So you'd have to have your request in before the 7 days prior to flight. On the website it says to make sure you have the best chance to get your recognition upgrades and standby's processed after 30 May to have them put in as early as possible.

AirNZ should just quit the Star Alliance right now. What they should do is exit stage left and allow Virgin Australia to take their place. This would be a massive boost for Virgin, as for all of us who hate Qantas, we would then have a good star alliance option for getting from Oz to Europe and around the sun-burnt country.

AirNZ is effectively dead to me.

They'd just process recognition and standby's first then accept the highest one-up bids after that. So you'd have to have your request in before the 7 days prior to flight. On the website it says to make sure you have the best chance to get your recognition upgrades and standby's processed after 30 May to have them put in as early as possible.

So if you do put your recognition upgrade in before 7 days prior to the flight, they'll work out who gets what in terms of the recognition upgrade prior to looking at the oneup bids, but they still won't let you know if your recognition upgrade has gone through outside of the 48 or 72 hour time frame despite the fact that they've already worked out which recognition upgrades will go through?

My airpoints are now worthless really.

We don't fly economy other than across the Tasman, for our long-haul travel it is always business.

As the only real use of my points is for upgrading my partner, I have to buy her a premium economy seat now, as the upgrades only go up one level. But with the cost of AirNZ, a premium economy fare to London is equivalent to a business fare on Malaysian airlines, which isn't too bad an airline.

So I have no incentive to fly AirNZ, as I generally pay more for an AirNZ ticket than what I would pay on Cathay and I can upgrade my partner using my points on Cathay, for what is a lesser cost in monetary terms.

I never thought this day would come. Probably would give oneworld a try after all. It would be a blow to Virgin as well to some extent as all ex NZ elite will be taking QF flights within Australia.

Fastest growing thread I have ever seen. On page 6 in less than 8 hours which is telling.

I'll be keeping a close eye out for this status match.

I've had time to digest the email I got this morning, about 5 minutes after I booked DPS and requested using up the four recognition upgrades [RU] we had in the whanau; in fact I thought the email came as a result of my requests!

It states that GE will still get the two RU and that they can confirm up to 355 days out. Then the good news ends. They may only decide to confirm RU at the airport whereas oneup can happen up to 7 days out. So, do you in such an instance ring the premium desk a week out and get them to unwind the RU entry and get into a bidding war if you really want the upgrade? Heck, you could even leave the RU in place and bid against yourself.

And can you still combine two RU to bypass PE on a three class plane? I know you can not oneup such an outocme.

I'm confident my RU will go through as they were put in place before 31-5-12, even if flights are in July. It is just the next few years of my banked GE that are looking a bit bleaker if my RU are likely so devalued.

What's Rob Fyfe's e-mail?

I think a show of hands is in order

This blows! But I'm really keen to find out what NZ mean by "Your [Silver/Gold/Gold Elite] status will be taken into account when your OneUp Upgrade offer is reviewed". Does this mean:

1 - Bids from status members take precedence when two PAX bid the same $ amount
2 - Bids from status members take precedence no matter how much lower they bid than non-status members (e.g. a $100 bid from GE will take precedence over a $1000 bid from Jade)
3 - A calculation is made, where status bids can be a maximum set % lower than non-status bids in order to take precedence (e.g. GE bids 20% lower will take precedence, G bids 10% lower, S bids 5% lower, or something like that)

Also will be interesting to know how bid precedence works based on booking class. Will a bid to upgrade an M class booing take precedence over a higher bid to upgrade a G class upgrade?

I've also heard Qantas off the back of this are about to offer a status match for gold and elite which Air NZ have handed them on a plate. This is the worst PR disaster for Air NZ

Where did you hear this? As I've just (qualifying year ended yesterday) missed out on retaining Qantas Platinum, although I have a bunch of flying this weekend that I can hopefully use to sweet-talk Qantas into re-instating me as Platinum.

What's Rob Fyfe's e-mail?

I think a show of hands is in order

Robert.Fyfe@airnz.co.nz

He's usually pretty good at answering, although if we were all to bombard (hint) him with our disgust, he may not reply to everyone.....

Another one to include on your email is David Mackrell ( david.mackrell@airnz.co.nz ), the new head of loyalty.

So if you do put your recognition upgrade in before 7 days prior to the flight, they'll work out who gets what in terms of the recognition upgrade prior to looking at the oneup bids, but they still won't let you know if your recognition upgrade has gone through outside of the 48 or 72 hour time frame despite the fact that they've already worked out which recognition upgrades will go through?

Those time frames aren't set in stone. I've had Silver upgrades get confirmed 1 week out when the loading was very low. Say for example 3 days before the flight they do a review of upgrades, this is how it would probably look:

1. Gold Elite Recog's not previously confirmed
2. Gold Recogs
3. Silver Recogs
4. GE standby
5. G standby
6. S standby
7. One-ups

Those time frames aren't set in stone. I've had Silver upgrades get confirmed 1 week out when the loading was very low. Say for example 3 days before the flight they do a review of upgrades, this is how it would probably look:

1. Gold Elite Recog's not previously confirmed
2. Gold Recogs
3. Silver Recogs
4. GE standby
5. G standby
6. S standby
7. One-upsHowever, you won't be able to apply for 4, 5 or 6 After May 30th.

I don't like a pig in a poke ... so it'll be a 25 months long bye bye GE for me.

Using Any Seat Rewards and booking well in advance of travel (same as I have been doing with AirNZ) out I can travel in Business, say, AKL-MEL-LAX on QF for a nett 60,000 QFF points and NZD330.

Lets say an http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/themes/airnz001/images/apd_symbol_blk.gif is worth 100 QFF points (~http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/themes/airnz001/images/apd_symbol_blk.gif60) so that's cheaper the the current Standby Upgrade rate.

I'll also earn over 20% of WP status requalification.

I can gain AirNZ *G for under US$1000 worth of travel without setting foot on an AirNZ aircraft - none of those pesky 810 SP's on "NZ Flights".

Robert.Fyfe@airnz.co.nz

He's usually pretty good at answering, although if we were all to bombard (hint) him with our disgust, he may not reply to everyone.....

Another one to include on your email is David Mackrell ( david.mackrell@airnz.co.nz ), the new head of loyalty.

Probably include Christoper Luxon, the ex Unilever guy who most likely is the most responsible for this suicidal change.

Whilst most of the changes Air NZ have implemented in recent years have been about gutting the earning capability of Airbucks from discount economy flights, this one wrecks the value for those of us with status.

I'm London based, have several FF programmes and have kept loyalty to NZ because of regular flights to NZ, California and HKG, and the ability to spend airbucks on standby upgrades which I almost always get because of shrewd selection of routes and dates when I have flexibility.

What this announcement does is change standby upgrades from being a simple process of request and hope, with a flat value that either goes from the account or doesn't, to a casino approach.

Every other loyalty programme I have belonged to (and there are non airline ones as well) grant some certainty as to rewards. I don't have to engage in some sort of auction. I don't want to have to think before I travel as to how much I should bid for an upgrade. It is one thing to convert airbucks into a fare to buy a ticket (I know the price), but another to make it entirely speculative.

Either I have enough airpoints dollars to do what I want, or I don't. If I do, I submit an upgrade request and presume that I get it depending on demand etc.

The thing is I have deliberately paid a bit more to fly on routes/days that have lower demand in BP (but higher prices in Y or PE) to raise the chance of an upgrade.

If I need to start speculating as to the upgrade price, I will look at other airlines. I don't need to speculate on QF/BA, I either get it or I don't and I live with not getting it. It is enough complication to choose between fares, days and times to have to do another choice based on airbucks.

The flipside is that there is a new choice compared to buying a BP ticket. Pay PE and bid a considerable amount between the price of PE and BP, because the chances of getting the upgrade become quite significant, especially on routes with lots of BP availability. Now you could argue that this was always possible with Airbucks before, but that depended on having Airbucks (loyalty) to spend - now you don't need that.

SO what are the alternatives? Being UK based, there are quite a few, but with BMI going into IAG world eventually, it may end up being BA/QF whereas for Star it probably will be UA.

Given PE is my most frequently travelled long haul paid class, the options for this are increasing. With Cathay and Malaysian both introducing PE, and Malaysian soon joining OneWorld, it looks like there is little point remaining Star Alliance loyal.

Well done NZ, an own goal about as successful as the efforts to decimate the Space + product on the cabin. You offer little loyalty value to leisure travellers and now you've dramatically gutted the value to HVCs.

1. Gold Elite Recog's not previously confirmed
2. Gold Recogs
3. Silver Recogs
4. GE standby
5. G standby
6. S standby
7. One-ups

i think this is the order "we" (as FTers) think but we simply dont know whats behind the computer screen.

apart from GE where you can have advance clearance when R class available. air nz really dont take the airfare paid into consideration when doing the u/g? regardless the status.

I've switched my international travel away from NZ. My airpoints (around $5,000 earned almost exclusively on flights) are worthless. It is difficult to use them on other *A carriers and I don't want to play lottery games with upgrades. They seem to want to turn everything into 'fun' but for frequent travellers they want certainty and recognition.
I think what this shows is that NZ's move to points as dollars was clearly a bad move as they lost control of their inventory. This move helps them take out a load of points floating around waiting to be used (and a liability at that). The cheapest thing for them to do is to get the airpoints spent on NZ flights. They don't really want us to get any spending benefit from the *A membership so they might as well be a standalone carrier. For me there is no TT business class opportunity to play upgrade lottery, so effectively the entire WLG market is pitching for the couple of long haul flights NZ operates from AKL (No one would really go WLG-AKL then to MEL just to ride the 777).

My loyalty has moved to QF. Even JQ offers a $15 upgrade on NZ domestic flights so that you earn QF status and miles - NZ differential is usually over $100 on domestic fares to earn AP's.

I use QF premium economy and on the WLG-Aus sector you get the business class product and J-class mileage earning - a nice bonus.
Switching my credit card to the ANZ QF loyalty card is next.

... (No one would really go WLG-AKL then to MEL just to ride the 777).


Um...I have:o:o, but it was a $15+tax Seat Only AKL-MEL flight which I used a recognition Upgrade to BP ;);) which justified it.

OK TK - I could have included the word 'rational' in my sentence, which then excuses you.:p

Probably include Christoper Luxon, the ex Unilever guy who most likely is the most responsible for this suicidal change.

Anyone got Christopher's email address? Tried christopher.luxon@airnz.co.nz, but email got bounced.

Anyone got Christopher's email address? Tried christopher.luxon@airnz.co.nz, but email got bounced.

It went through when I emailed him. I guess his mailbox is full at this point.

One thought about this, NZ could always operate OneUp on a TRUE auction basis with transparency. Imagine if you could see the price for an upgrade on any flight days out from the flight. Then you'd have a significant amount of downselling to Y and PE from those who might otherwise have paid for the premium fare, but can see the auction price for the marginal upgrade being quite low. It could mean people end up outbidding each other for an upgrade, even when prices get ridiculous. NZ has every incentive to avoid transparency of course to avoid that sort of gameplaying.

Of course, you kind of can already simply by looking at the price for a paid fare in the class. I've often noted for example, when comparing PE and BP fares LHR-AKL how there may be a higher PE fare via LAX but lower BP fare, relative to via HKG, making it a better bet with an airpoints upgrade via LAX because the fare in C tells you availability (Expertflyer of course makes it easier to figure that out).

It means that with OneUp, there is no incentive to buy a BP fare on a flight that is cheap, because you can make a decent bid for OneUP from a PE fare and believe you have a good chance of an upgrade. At the moment this might only be the case if you are G or GE, in which case you already probably do paid BP flights anyway, and then the upgrade is status led.

Now if you have no status, why buy BP on Air NZ when you can buy the class below and bid up.

When BP fares are expensive, it will be clear that the OneUP upgrade will also have to be expensive to outdo the others, but still it may be cheaper paying PE and a OneUP upgrade.

In short, OneUp, which was once a useful way to flog off some inventory last minute to non-loyalty passengers willing to give an upgrade a go, allows for quite a bit of gameplaying.

If there was one thing NZ could so to "fix" this, it would be to continue to allow Air NZ FFs with status to buy airpoints standby upgrades and for these to continue to be ranked above OneUps. That would at least mean loyalty with NZ remains rewarded and considered to be of value.

An alternative is to offer all status holders a bundle of "recognition" upgrades they could use, which would expire at the end of the year. Airbucks may be useless, but those upgrades are not. Silvers could get 2, Golds 4 and GEs 8 or something like that (and they could still be used in pairs to jump from Y to BP).

However, I do struggle to see why anyone non NZ based would stick with Airpoints after this. The great hope has to be for Virgin Australia to join *A.

1stly I dont work for NZ. I am a shareholder.

I applaud NZ for this move, it now makes sense. It didn't make sense earlier with Oneup becasue as many of u realised you could 'top up' airpoints and use them to buy upgrades for a very low cost.

It always seemed silly that people could upgrade so cheaply into highly priced PE and BP seats - the product is world leading in both classes and if you want to fly it - YOU SHOULD PAY FOR IT, either by buying it or if there are spare seats by bidding in a competitive way so NZ gets the most revenue they can. It has seemed for a long time that 1/2 the people in PE or BP are upgraders and effectively are not making $ for NZ.

What luxton and the new mangement approach is doing is wonderful - they are aiming directly at the mass market with a comprehensive offering with the onesmart card. Consider the convinience of the card now:
- good for FX wallet
- avoid cc fees when booking
- use to buy on board
- use to bid for oneups
- acts as entry to KL etc
Overall GREAT - for most travellers.

I understand that some of the FF on this site will be disappointed with the loss of a perk - maybe NZ will give you some other perk to make up for it. Some of you are truly HVC, others are just VC gaming the system and getting cheap upgrades.

As for the great loss of revenue I am sure NZ will make up for the loss of even 1000 HVC (if you really are HVC) with the added attractiveness and revenue opportunities from the hundred's of thousands of those who arent so clued up or stand to benefit from the opportunity to oneup.

e.g my father has been GE for years - never upgraded like you all do a single time - used apd to pay for daughter to fly to dunedin and back every semester. Flys BP to China or UK 6x a year. And always economy when self funded. Most people don't know the first thing about upgrading - but when the get the oneup email they will!

The number of people I know 40-70 who are earning 200-300k+ and fly economy always (when self funded) makes me wonder how much of a market the 'premium' market is in NZ. However given the chance to bid up to PE they might well think what the hell and have a bid - its very easy.

Overall it would be great if people took a balanced view of this change. Try one up bidding - reports are it is quite easy to get an UG and if you guys are all so HVC and wealthy you should be able to outbid everyone quite easily.

I totally understand that you are losing something you believe you deserve and is your right - but it isn't. I also understand the nature of this website and that 99% of you are disadvantaged by this change. I suggest like another poster said - ask NZ for 3 confirmed UG for GE per year instead of 2. maybe they will give you that. NZ is loss making long-haul and history has shown it is the core market and not the HVC which NZ needs to win to return to profitability.

Can't wait to read your responses - but guys - lets be mature about this and not children.

Those time frames aren't set in stone. I've had Silver upgrades get confirmed 1 week out when the loading was very low. Say for example 3 days before the flight they do a review of upgrades, this is how it would probably look:

1. Gold Elite Recog's not previously confirmed
2. Gold Recogs
3. Silver Recogs
4. GE standby
5. G standby
6. S standby
7. One-ups

I want what you're saying to be correct but I have a feeling it won't work that way :(

oh one more thing

those calling for NZ to leave star and call themselves a LCC.

That is just disgracefull and ungrateful and crap - simple as that. Air NZ is one of the best airlines in the world and is leading the way in providing:

Top notch product hard and soft for BP and PE (best PE in the world)
Value and choice for economy flyers - which is exactly what economy passengers want.

It does, I got mine 3 weeks ago, and the 10,000 points joining promo has been extended as well.....

though i'm not sure if changing from the ANZ airpoints visa platnium to ANZ qantas visa platnium will give me the points bonus. Don't terms and condition say no points for transferring/closing one ANZ credit card to another?

1stly I dont work for NZ. I am a shareholder.
the product is world leading in both classes and if you want to fly it - YOU SHOULD PAY FOR IT, either by buying it or if there are spare seats by bidding in a competitive way so NZ gets the most revenue they can. It has seemed for a long time that 1/2 the people in PE or BP are upgraders and effectively are not making $ for NZ.

Um, no. Airbucks are very hard to earn unless you fly in PE or BP regularly, or fly weekly amounts on full fare domestic flights. I do fly paid BP or PE several times a year, and frankly if I didn't have Gold or Gold Elite status, I wouldn't expect to get airpoints upgrades to clear. Most long haul Y customers earn next to nothing from Airbucks because the earning rate is so low, so in fact NZ has already repositioned the programme to reward HVCs. Oh and the world beating PE product is only available on two routes (AKL-LAX-LHR and arguably AKL-SFO). CX is about to outdo NZ on PE for LHR-HKG-AKL. BP on NZ is good, but it doesn't have such a premium to outdo SQ or the new CX products.

I'm London based. NZ does well out of me purely out of arbitrage from all of its partner airlines crediting Airbucks on my account, which it no doubt regards as useful revenue, then there is my 2x return long haul premium flights a year either all the way to NZ or to HKG or LAX, depending on business. If that isn't worth it to NZ, then fine - I'll go elsewhere, there is a lot of choice.

I know I am in a minority, but my annual income is above that of 90% of the NZ population, and when I do leisure trips to NZ I look at PE or paying a cheap C class or sometimes going one way in Y and another in BP, using airbucks to upgrade. If NZ prefers to target the vast number of leisure flying NZers who have little choice, then fine. However, NZ doesn't have a big premium market - but the US and UK do. Yet NZ looks like it doesn't care much about competing for them.

The Onesmart Card is of course meaningless to me, but then when I fly LHR-LAX in PE or BP, I make the airline far more than its leisure travellers flying Y on short haul.

Of course NZ could still make money from OneUP without destroying airpoints upgrades. It could simply restrict airpoints upgrades to those with status, which effectively means only those who are HVCs can gain them. OneUP could still exist for everyone, include HVCs who would rather spend money on upgrades.

My concern is that I don't want to have to engage in bidding matches for upgrades. Either there are seats available or there aren't, and either my status is high enough to get them or it isn't. If the price is too low, increase it (it happened before). I don't want to have to wait a week before travel to request an upgrade and guess how much it is worth to me.

If NZ wants to do this, then of course it is entitled to, like any business. It can wipe the programme tomorrow if it likes. However, it has effectively given notice to me that I should go elsewhere with my loyalty. I know upgrades on other programmes cost a bit more, but they also earn a bit more.



[/QUOTE]

Welcome to FT, modandm - you sure picked a start with a bang! :p

Not having the financial data available, it would certainly be a bit of guessing, but if I read your post correctly, you seem to indicate that a major cause of NZ losing money is due to the current (expiring) upgrade system. It's an interesting thought, but I would suspect that fuel prices and lower pax loads are more to blame, although am happy to be proven wrong with any evidence.

As libertyuk pointed out, under the current system it actually is very expensive to earn the APD required for upgrades by flying. Admittedly this has become less so with other earning partners such as credit cards. One of the big features of traditional, legacy carriers is that you pay a higher fare in return (presumably) for a higher level of service and the occasional perk. If those perks are removed, then it's less appealing to the HVC. Granted, the new ability to buy APD 1:1 with NZD made that a lot different, and I wondered when that rolled out if something like this was in the works.

For example, I have frequently paids hundreds of dollars more to stay on NZ, compared to similar flights on QF and others, simply to help retain status. So at this point, why would I continue to do that? It feels like being charged for an Audi but the dealer gives you a Kia to drive home!

It would be interesting to see the numbers on how much gross and median per pax revenue each tier brings in - I suspect NZ has looked at this and made a calculated move that either HVC can easily be shed a bit, or that they truly think HVC will stay because they have no choice or won't mind.

Finally, even though the FT community may be a small slice of the flying public, we're human too and need a place to grumble and vent a bit, so try not to take things to heart so seriously and let others have a little freedom :)

Straight from the NZ FAQ...

Please note minimum amounts to offer are as follows: (based in NZD or Airpoints Dollars™, where applicable converted to local currencies)
• Economy to Premium Economy $200
• Economy to Business (where no premium economy exists) $200
• Premium Economy to Business Premier $450

https://airnz.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2890/~/can-you-tell-me-what-is-the-minimum-amount-i-need-to-offer-to-get-a-oneup

Straight from the NZ FAQ...

Please note minimum amounts to offer are as follows: (based in NZD or Airpoints Dollars™, where applicable converted to local currencies)
• Economy to Premium Economy $200
• Economy to Business (where no premium economy exists) $200
• Premium Economy to Business Premier $450

https://airnz.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2890/~/can-you-tell-me-what-is-the-minimum-amount-i-need-to-offer-to-get-a-oneup

So the minimum spend is actually a little less than the current $220 for long-haul upgrades. Very interesting. Will be good to see, once the system is up and running fully (and solely) how much various people end up bidding for upgrades.

For example, I have frequently paids hundreds of dollars more to stay on NZ, compared to similar flights on QF and others, simply to help retain status. So at this point, why would I continue to do that? It feels like being charged for an Audi but the dealer gives you a Kia to drive home!



Everything up to the Kia bit had me in agreement. In the recent heavy snow fall in Wellington our neighbour came sliding past our house in his quattro Audi A6 smashing it up into a fence. I cheerfully chugged past in my diesel Kia after lowering tyre pressures without drama. Of course, once safely home I ventured out onto our closed street with the 4WD Outlander and four chains. But perhaps the Kia is a metaphor for how I view my relationship with AirNZ. Be grateful for the small things in life :)

NZ are just gathering in as much cash as they can and good on them.
Pity they doing it by cutting their nose off.
AS for the "I don't work for NZ" or "I am a shareholder" where have you darlings been all these years, what a time to come out and start, call me cynical but guys you must work for NZ because you're timing and comments sound just like they have come from the "NZ Guide on How to Retain LCC Top Status by Telling the Top 5% of Your Custonmers to Bugger Off."

Sorry you "not NZ workers" doesn't wash, try a different name and IP address next time.

Robert.Fyfe@airnz.co.nz

He's usually pretty good at answering, although if we were all to bombard (hint) him with our disgust, he may not reply to everyone.....

Another one to include on your email is David Mackrell ( david.mackrell@airnz.co.nz ), the new head of loyalty.

Perhaps it would be a good idea if we create a list of the exact issues here in this forum, so that those wishing to write to Air New Zealand fully cover all the

I am certainly going to write something to them, and will also do so to BNZ as I cannot see any reason - aside from the ability to gather status points - why I would remain using the GlobalPlus product, especially with high annual fees, and the ever-increasing processing fees now being charged by Air NZ which wipe out any net gain.

But on both counts I intend to provide some suggestions for compromises to the programme that might meet the goals of both the HVC's and the Airline/Bank.

oh one more thing

those calling for NZ to leave star and call themselves a LCC.

That is just disgracefull and ungrateful and crap - simple as that. Air NZ is one of the best airlines in the world and is leading the way in providing:

Top notch product hard and soft for BP and PE (best PE in the world)
Value and choice for economy flyers - which is exactly what economy passengers want.

As reflected in their share price and historical trends.. i think not

You call yourself a shareholder, most ff on here also see their glossy anual report however most of us here see right through their .........

It always seemed silly that people could upgrade so cheaply into highly priced PE and BP seats - the product is world leading in both classes.

You lost me here. It shows your limited experience of airlines. I can assure you the NZ offering is average at best. And the things you applaud are the very reason the HVCs are leaving. It's a reasonable strategy for NZ to target the mass audience - I have no problem with that as an economic choice, but then they need to quickly stop any attempt at appealing to the business and high-end leisure markets. While a legitimate choice, this option would call into question their qualification for the Star Alliance. The good news is that the Govt ownership will soon be reduced; hopefully they will find a non-narcissistic CEO who focuses less on fluffy advertising and more on a clear business strategy, with open communication to their customers.

Sorry you "not NZ workers" doesn't wash, try a different name and IP address next time.

Which one do you think they are? http://www.airnewzealand.com.au/executive

Isn't it amazing how not a single one of their executive team has any experience at another airline.

Edit: I'm in an industry that is very unique, just like AirNZ, and you would never find a company in this industry with such a lack of industry experience steering the ship.

It didn't make sense earlier with Oneup becasue as many of u realised you could 'top up' airpoints and use them to buy upgrades for a very low cost.

I think you mean OneSmart, and yes, most of us on this Forum were incredulous when the 1 for 1 top-up of APD using NZD came into effect. It immediately devalued an Airpoint Dollar, the earning of which some on this form had estimated prior to OneSmart to be worth about 15 NZD.

So management is left with two options. One, eliminate the top-up scheme (or inflate the rate for APD), or two, eliminate any benefit of APD that has a value greater than the exchange rate of 1:1 with cash. Option one would have been quite painless - we all got an e-mail last week that effectively communicated over 90% of NZ Airpoints members have failed to activate One Smart, so NZ aren't really reaching their target mass market. But management went through door number 2 in a strange way (by removing the value of certainty) that engenders disloyalty, as libertyuk describes.

This was a mistake... my opinion, also as a shareholder, was that they should have killed OneSmart.

It always seemed silly that people could upgrade so cheaply into highly priced PE and BP seats - the product is world leading in both classes and if you want to fly it - YOU SHOULD PAY FOR IT, either by buying it or if there are spare seats by bidding in a competitive way so NZ gets the most revenue they can.

Your logic here relies upon OneSmart's top-up facility allowing anyone to bypass "paying for it". If earning an APD was worth the equivalent of 15 NZD, as it was prior to OneSmart, then anyone upgrading from Y to J would probably have been better off paying cash for it.

As we're both shareholders, consider the value of loyalty. I now fly 10 TT segments a year AKL-SYD (about half in paid J), so there is plenty of competition. Over the past year, while GE, I've insisted on flying NZ, despite the degraded soft product (747/777 very rare AKL-SYD), and despite the much higher prices (especially compared to LA). So let's say, for illustration's sake, that all airlines make $100 off each of my segments.

I could choose based on price/convenience, which would probably have me flying all the different airlines at one point or another. Let's say that this approach lands me on NZ five times, making the company $500.

They'll be better off if they either give me a "buy 9 get 1 free" card (making $800, assuming that there's a $100 opportunity cost to fly me for free), or a "buy 10, get $200 of value elsewhere", like an upgrade scheme.

Now, QF/EK are both offering me "buy X, get Y free" cards, with higher levels of soft product service compared with the NZ A320s that often ply AKL-SYD. In the theoretical example, the rational consumer shifts all his buisiness to QF or EK. NZ loses $800 on a route that was supposedly becoming profitable!

I think you should share my concern as a shareholder. NZ are effectively trading off TT and International loyalty (as others point out, NZ's long-haul soft-product advantage is short-term) for an uncertain amount of increased income + the possibility of more people buying PE. I think they've made the wrong decision.

I want what you're saying to be correct but I have a feeling it won't work that way :(

Yeah I know what you mean. I'm going to email them and get it confirmed in writing that Standby and Recognition Upgrades will be given before One-Ups. Will let you know how I get on.

I don't know the data - it could be that the overseas HVC isn't substantial and maybe the corporate market is mostly from domestic/TT travels. One way of looking at it could be that if you pick a date, how many people actually get standby upgrades. Some people may just miss out. With the bidding, if there is 5 vacancies on that flight, those 5 gets it (not just 1). And in regards to confirmed upgrades, maybe they see it as if you want something as a confirmation, bid a preimum price if you want it badly. So gaming the system is gone.

That group who pay for their own upper class fares may be a small group, who knows. Maybe more of them use standy/confirmed upgrades to try to wing it. I think being allowed to do a 2 class upgrade was a bit too generous.

It doesn't bother me as I prefer award flights to be financially better off than to get some comfort. Re: the vast majority of people here. To those who earn up to 120k in team leader positions, I know no one who travels in business class or even prem economy. Even now, I don't imagine most could do bidding - don't you need a decent fare? The typical fares people get are discounted economy ie., <$2k to Asia or <$3k to Europe.

If they wanted to restrict upgrades, even if they were still using a mileage program. Would many of you be satisfied if they heavily reduced the alloc. of upgrade tickets until the point where they had some certainty that those seats would be vacant? And even so there may only be a few seats alloc on each flight.

All New Zealanders are shareholders, so it's a wee bit redundant really.

Great new business strategy though, sign up under a nom-de-plume and antagonise your best customers.

So the two newly registered Air NZ plants on this thread say that the airline will grow bigger profits by making Airpoints into an INfrequent flyer program?

Smart move.

If ModandM in any way represents the NZ view then that in itself is enough.

How f:mad:Kin insulting.

I spend $40k a year with NZ - does that make a HVC - probably not in the whole scheme of things - but if this is in anyway the view in management at NZ then I'll give it to Qantas.

The ability to get the odd TT upgrade to j is hardly some decadent excess ModandM for a $40k spend and between my other partners a 300k spend. That's a lot of leisure travel - good luck with replacing it.

So the two newly registered Air NZ plants on this thread say that the airline will grow bigger profits by making Airpoints into an INfrequent flyer program?

Smart move.

You are so spot on.

The other stupid thing about oneup that I thought about is if anyone cancels his premium cabin ticket between 3 days and departure, because all bidders will have known their bidding successful or not, NZ will have to leave these seats empty as there will no longer be standy upgrades?

So the two newly registered Air NZ plants on this thread say that the airline will grow bigger profits by making Airpoints into an INfrequent flyer program?

Smart move.
But evidence from other airlines regarding their FFP indicate the revenue generated via partners is greater than the cost and therefore increasing the profit.
IMO the bulk of people who are GE would be travelling in paid BP the majority of the time, hence no impact, with the exception of times either self funded travel in economy where they still can access Upgrades via the "Recognition Upgrades".
Anyway my opinion of Airpoints remain the same (:td:) and this does not affect me as I either fly other airlines internationally or in NZ Business Class anyway.
I just want NZ to remain a profitable airline with a certain level of service, at the moment they are below my expectations eg. no Business Class from WLG, but at the lowest for lounge service.

Can't wait to read your responses - but guys - lets be mature about this and not children.

My response is people will just choose another carrier with cheaper fares and better FFP's and just as good service. Believe me there are a bunch of them in the New Zealand long haul market.

Let's be honest. I can't see how you can create new loyalty with your pathetic scheme and expensive fares. And now you are pissing off your existing loyal customers. That's all fine if you are a LCC where you don't need loyalty.

Yep, NZ really have made what I see as another amateur mistake. This has killed loyalty for a lot of us, as well as a lot of the goodwill and unbeatable word of mouth advertising/referral. Not to mention the many people (myself included) who would routinely fly indirect or pay higher fares to stick to NZ metal.

I have no data to back this up however I suspect that a few percent of AirNZ's customers are responsible for a few tens of percent of revenue. That would be loyalty in action there.

AirNZ is no longer an automatic first choice for me on routes with direct or indirect competition. I used to be known as Mr. AirNZ amongst family and friends due to the amount of travel I do, they now wonder why I don't extoll their virtues anymore.

The BP hard product is good, but I wouldn't consider it to be world-leading. The soft product is uneatable IMHO though.

The 773 PE may be a world leading product, but certainly not in the area of comfort (which is a pretty important aspect for long hauls). I flew it once, and never again. Admittedly this was in the very early days when service was a disaster and before they pulled a row out. And lets not get started on packing it in 3-4-3 in cabbage class on the 773...

When UA nee CO first announced IAH-AKL I was of the opinion that I would never fly the route given I saw NZ as superior in just about all facets. Now it is most definitely a contender for me, possibly even preferable due to the ability to use... loyalty upgrades. I'm sure I am not alone, and that really is a big blow to AirNZ and her shareholders.

There's no denying that AirNZ has to be a viable company, and has to make a profit. It seems that the revenue directly and indirectly attributable to loyalty is far far less than that attributable to the mass market. It remains to be seen as to whether that is one smart move or not.

IMO the bulk of people who are GE would be travelling in paid BP the majority of the time, hence no impact, with the exception of times either self funded travel in economy where they still can access Upgrades via the "Recognition Upgrades".

I've regularly perused the BP pax listing on my way to the lavatories and have generally been surprised at the relative lack of GEs. A lot of NZ*Gs and *Gs, though. Of course my stats here are going to be biased as I always upgrade to BP. Having some flexibility in my schedule means I generally end up on lightly loaded flights - a great outcome for both NZ and me!

I may not represent your average FFer, however in the 1.3M odd miles I've flown in the last four years I've had just three sectors in paid business (none in long haul BP). I know for a fact that many of my colleagues are in a similar boat.

US-based, G status member here and was just about to purchase a full-fare J ticket LAX-AKL-LAX to put me over the top and achieve GE status. But, if I no longer will be able to search for availability and guarantee my UPGs, I have no use for this program!

NZ, you just lost a $10k booking. Seriously. No joke.

(I am, at least glad that they notified me when they did -- would be even more upset if they'd done this change after I gave them the $).

1. I heard reference to the fact that overseas AP members can't use this silly OneUp thing? Is that true?
2. In the future, IF I were buy a PremEco ticket (or full Eco fare ticket) less than 7 days before departure, I can't upgrade using AP? Huh?

Is MH still joining up with Oneworld? If so, that'd be game over I think.

NZ are just gathering in as much cash as they can and good on them.
Pity they doing it by cutting their nose off.
AS for the "I don't work for NZ" or "I am a shareholder" where have you darlings been all these years, what a time to come out and start, call me cynical but guys you must work for NZ because you're timing and comments sound just like they have come from the "NZ Guide on How to Retain LCC Top Status by Telling the Top 5% of Your Custonmers to Bugger Off."

Sorry you "not NZ workers" doesn't wash, try a different name and IP address next time.


Exactly. Thank-you.
Isn't it funny how these "not workers for AirNZ" just happened to have come upon FlyerTalk this week? What a coincidence.

1. I heard reference to the fact that overseas AP members can't use this silly OneUp thing? Is that true?
2. In the future, IF I were buy a PremEco ticket (or full Eco fare ticket) less than 7 days before departure, I can't upgrade using AP? Huh?

I think the OneSmart card was only sent to NZ addresses. If you have yours, you still might have the issue re: registering it if you are overseas.

Standby upgrades if that is what you mean - the AirNZ website says:
From the 30th of May 2012, requests for Airpoints™ Standby and Confirmed upgrades will no longer be available under the Airpoints Programme, however Airpoints members will be able to request an OneUp™ upgrade through myairnz.com at any time and pay for any accepted offer with Airpoints Dollars™ (or credit card, prepaid debit card or debit card).

Is MH still joining up with Oneworld? If so, that'd be game over I think.

Still unconfirmed at this stage but I really can't see why it won't go through.

Still unconfirmed at this stage but I really can't see why it won't go through.

It means both SkyTeam and oneworld will have multiple members serving AKL. Without loyalty being recognised, it's game over for NZ. It's a funny thing they are doing. Normally under these circumstances, you would enhance your program to entice more frequent flyers. See how DJ is stealing market share from QF with their attractive program? What they are doing now can only push more customers to other airlines.

It means both SkyTeam and oneworld will have multiple members serving AKL. Without loyalty being recognised, it's game over for NZ.
No kidding!

They are condemning themselves to being entirely dependent upon the most price-sensitive and least loyal leisure passengers.

No business can afford to drive its highest spending repeat customers to the opposition while basing its product on occasional customers who are low spenders and cannot deliver profits.

We are obviously watching the first moments of a corporate train wreck. Whoever dreamed up and approved the recent Airpoints reforms will be rewarded with corporate failure. But the wonderful staff don't deserve the fate these people are condemning them to.

Very sad.

Very sad

I think the OneSmart card was only sent to NZ addresses. If you have yours, you still might have the issue re: registering it if you are overseas.

Standby upgrades if that is what you mean - the AirNZ website says:
From the 30th of May 2012, requests for Airpoints™ Standby and Confirmed upgrades will no longer be available under the Airpoints Programme, however Airpoints members will be able to request an OneUp™ upgrade through myairnz.com at any time and pay for any accepted offer with Airpoints Dollars™ (or credit card, prepaid debit card or debit card).

As I live overseas, I was never given a OneSmart card.

Other then using a recognition UPG, it's my understanding then that the only way to UPG is using the OneUp program. As this program requires the request to be made >7 days from flight, if I purchase my ticket <7 days from flight and/or need to make a last minute change to my ticket, I have no upgrade options. That's pretty bad to HVC if true.

Similarly, for an airline that usually tries to streamline processes in a bid to save costs (yes) but also to make for a less stressed pax experience, forcing HVC to engage in a blind auction process, with all of the the stress that accompanies this, is startling! OAL are in the habit of trying to reduce the stresses of travel for HVC rather than establish programs that serve to increase it. Truly staggering. The Fyfe management team could have ended their careers on a high note -- too bad that HVCs will now think of them negatively.

So is the business cabin on Air NZ is to become an upgrade cabin - a bit like the US airlines and their first class cabins. You can pay a bit more and get a bit more service (I got a brunch bar in F on a lunchtime flight from DFW to CLT on USAirways).

I think the next moan from NZ will be that they have to cut services in he J cabin because the yield is collapsing. Just look at the upgrade priority listings now. The upgrade lotto will make life tough for the gate agents.

No real incentive for anyone to buy a J fare anymore. Strip out the J cabin and bung more Y+ seats in and deal with the problem properly if the corporate J market doesn't exist to NZ.

So is the business cabin on Air NZ is to become an upgrade cabin - a bit like the US airlines and their first class cabins. You can pay a bit more and get a bit more service (I got a brunch bar in F on a lunchtime flight from DFW to CLT on USAirways).

I think the next moan from NZ will be that they have to cut services in he J cabin because the yield is collapsing. Just look at the upgrade priority listings now. The upgrade lotto will make life tough for the gate agents.

No real incentive for anyone to buy a J fare anymore. Strip out the J cabin and bung more Y+ seats in and deal with the problem properly if the corporate J market doesn't exist to NZ.

All of these is caused by the "brilliant" idea of Airpoints top up with cash at 1:1. It also makes the partnerships between NZ and many of Airpoints hotel and rental car partners meaningless. Who needs to accrue Airpoints when you can buy them without limit? With upgrades gone, now the question has become who needs Airpoints when everything can be done in cash?

Perhaps the only meaning for Airpoints is status. But what's the point if there is not really any status perks? And there are far better ways to get Star Gold with another airline (plus you won't need to carry 2 cards). Seriously, I feel like NZ is being run by a bunch of amateurs.

Just spoke with AirPoints. According to them, the OneUp does NOT give any priority to G/GE .. its just based on bid amount, so mum/dad have the same chances as a HVC.

They have, apparently, started a log of G/GE complaints with the new program, so would encourage all pax, esp HVC, to call them and lodge your complaints. Summary of mine:

1. Limited value in trying to pursue GE as having some certainty about being able to UPG is the most important value I have for a freq flyer program
2. Airpoints now have limited value
3. An auction process creates extreme amounts of stress
4. HVC purchase tix at the last-minute and make last-minute changes. Not being able to upgrade <7 days out hurts HVC disproportinately
5. 1 years advance notice for such a major change to the program should have been provided

Anyone interested?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/business-farming-industry/other/auction-453981663.htm

I can't really fathom that this is happening - are NZ really hell bent on throwing us all under the bus? My last remaining hope was that status would mean something at UG process time. But judging from the conversation the last poster had with the Airpoints people, it seems it will count for nothing.

I reckon we have an annual air travel budget of $70-120K pa between us 2 adults and 2 teenagers and the family business. As it turns out, we've just exhausted all our booked travel - nothing after April. I've banked a couple of GE years. Wasn't planning on booking another trip til September holidays, then a trip to Europe around this time next year, and hadn't thought outside of NZ, but I guess I am going to have to.

Any word on status matching? And where's the logical place to go from NZ?

:mad: Email your concerns to Gold.Elite@airnz.co.nz. Bombard ier them along with CL and DM.

We should consider an Occupy KC :D

.... September holidays, then a trip to Europe around this time next year, and hadn't thought outside of NZ, but I guess I am going to have to. Emirates will be a big winner of the Air NZ club to the head of its former high spending customers who travel overseas

"We should consider an Occupy KC "

Absolutely. With guests. Husband, kids and I can bring in 14 guests between us.
Though thinking about the revenue surge involved in us all buying tix to get access to the lounge...could be just the boost NZ is looking for. Or are we going to be real anarchists and just barge on in?

Anyone interested?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/business-farming-industry/other/auction-453981663.htm


Ex Iconic Airline
Start price: $5,000,000.00
Closes: Fri 9 Mar, 2:47 pm
Listing #: 453981663

This is a one off sale of an old Kiwi icon.
It has served New Zealanders well over the years but in recent times has seen a few problems.

Inventory includes some new and not so new airplanes, a few scattered airline lounges (need upgrading and restocking) and faithful but tired flight crews, land crews and office staff.

Some of the icons latest ideas have been to scare off high paying frequent flyers, get rid of perks for frequent flyers, introduce a low cost carrier model to compete with the new world class airlines, and a new membership card that can be used to buy foriegn currency and has been well received by about 10% of its members, yes 10% which make it a fantastic success :(

Some senior staff are retiring soon (some have jumped) sorry some have resigned for fresher fields.

Get into this cash business now where loyalty is not a problem, buying flights with any currency is okay and the latest innovation flying business class without having to pay business class fares - where else can you get such a bargain.

Hurry this offer will not last long, first in could get a bargain before all the top fare paying passengers go elsewhere. Too much $$ IMHO even for Kiwi $

Just called the Premium Team and they told me they are getting feedback to report to Mr Luxon. So Luxon is the man behind all this. I also asked about Simon and was confirmed he left because he shared different views and he didn't want to make the change.

So here I apologise to Simon for the strong words I used in another thread.

AirNZ are losing me as a customer - didn't think I'd ever say that really as I've been a huge fan for a long time.

For me the value proposition was to fly AirNZ for business so that I can use my points to upgrade myself and family when not flying for business. Getting priority on the upgrade list via status was the element of recognition I valued the most. That is now gone, which essentially takes away the reason for me to earn that status. Status isn't really important when flying in paid J.

I don't like the term HVC (especially when people are referring to themselves!), but with paid business class flights between the UK and Oz very 4 - 6 weeks and 5000-odd status credits earned on NZ in J last year there must have been some value there to NZ. Unfortunately what I valued most was a degree of certainty (even if nothing is ever certain) around upgrades for personal trips.

AirNZ does have excellent customer service and the on-board product is fabulous, so I will miss it - and particularly the excellent staff I've got to know well over the years in London and LA, and I do hope this will all be successful for the airline somehow. It's a great "boutique" airline.

I don't think it wouldn't matter to me if NZ did an about face now or tweaked this. The fundamental changes made to the program over the last 12 months essentially don't work for me as a non-NZ-based frequent business traveller and have been frustrating, so I'm going to switch to another airline and program. This was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Also - if those 2 new members who signed up this week posted here are connected to AirNZ in some way (you know if you are) then all I can say is shame. If not - have fun on flyertalk.

Cheers, Zac

Anyone interested?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/business-farming-industry/other/auction-453981663.htm

Lol @ location Hokitika, West Coast. Leaves little to the imagination about who on here made it. Good work though wayoutwest:p hope you CC'd Mr Fyfe a link to it

All of these is caused by the "brilliant" idea of Airpoints top up with cash at 1:1. It also makes the partnerships between NZ and many of Airpoints hotel and rental car partners meaningless. Who needs to accrue Airpoints when you can buy them without limit? With upgrades gone, now the question has become who needs Airpoints when everything can be done in cash?

Perhaps the only meaning for Airpoints is status. But what's the point if there is not really any status perks? And there are far better ways to get Star Gold with another airline (plus you won't need to carry 2 cards). Seriously, I feel like NZ is being run by a bunch of amateurs.


It's funny you mention Airpoints partners. My husband and I were just discussing something similar last night.
I earn some $A and SP on my BNZ credit card. I hate the thing. Its security is like fort knox (you need one of those "code" cards to get into your account) and there are delays on charges showing up by 3-7 (sometimes more) days. ASB was always much easier and faster to use. But I persisted, for the upgrades and status.

With $A for sale for cash, we'll be going back to using ASB and collecting cash back.

We also won't be bothering with flybuys anymore.

I wonder what the Airpoints partners think of all these developments?

Does anyone know how to contact NZ Herald? I haven't seen this in the media and all Kiwis deserve to know how NZ management has ruined an airline.

Lol @ location Hokitika, West Coast. Leaves little to the imagination about who on here made it. Good work though wayoutwest:p hope you CC'd Mr Fyfe a link to it

Oh how could you blame for such an outrageous offer :rolleyes:

Pointless going to NZ with it as they do not listen, I will however raise my concerns with Kiwibank as one of the reasons for getting a platinum card was the good APD earning rate, now don't need to spend just pay for them.

This bizarre method of customer relations is second to none in terms in incompetence. AirNZ mgmt hatch these half baked programs without modeling them on real world scenarios, throw them at their loyal customers, defend tooth and nail they are right and accuse their HVC's of "cheating the system", then realize they goofed and amend - to a certain degree. Upsetting loyal customers to implement changes by this pendulum approach to program introduction is odd to say the least.

AirNZ have a great focus group right here on the boards. Why oh Why don't they make use of the data they can garner from educated travelers? Customers who pay to fly BP & PE and who (used to) brag with pride about their own airline.

If AirNZ need to tweak their FFP (a full revamp would be more appropriate) how about an S2S approach, AirPoints to suite? An "AP2S" program that allows *G, *GE to select the benefits that are best suited to their travel needs. Just don't make it overly complex...

Personally, I would forgo the GE partner card as it's redundant to me, and like many of you had Comp ugrades expire due to not using them. Having the option of being able to use AP's to purchase & confirm UG's in advance is important to me. Also, I gave the 1 year *G GE Xmas gift to a relative who ended up flying AirNZ over their preferred airline (Qantas) and re qualified for *G with AirNZ the following year. I like that and would call it a win-win.

Anyway, give it a few weeks and something else will be hatched. I'll bet 5000 Airpoints on it.

I have been Gold Elite with Air New Zealand since United ceased flying to Auckland in the early 2000's.
My partner and myself spend 40/50K per year with the airline.
The continual whittling down of the benefits we receive has finally gone too far.
The ability to confirm upgrades, has been one of the few perks that made Gold Elite worth while.

Some of the comments in this forum regarding frequent flyers receiving something for nothing are ludicrous.
A NZ/USA Premium Economy Ticket cost's around $4,500, plus $960 now devalued Airpoints. $5,500 is a lot of money.

I do this 4/5 times a year, as well as the UK. Sometimes purchasing Business Premier.

The last time they screwed us over on the Seat, Seat/Bag etc Tasman service, they did listen to us and made a few changes. It is my hope they will do so again.

I just called Airpoints and voiced my disgust at this latest change. The lady I spoke to could not have been more pleasant. BUT she knew NOTHING of this change!!!!
Actually made me laugh as they really have no idea how to keep and maintain their best customers.

In the scheme of things 40/50K is not a lot of money, but I for one will fly with another Airline.

I will exhaust my current Airpoints and then switch back to United and fly either via Australia, or on their new Houston service.

BTW: A shareholder as well! I do not work for the airline:)

Does anyone know how to contact NZ Herald? I haven't seen this in the media and all Kiwis deserve to know how NZ management has ruined an airline.

http://dynamic.nzherald.co.nz/feedback/email.cfm?user=newsdesk

It's funny you mention Airpoints partners. My husband and I were just discussing something similar last night.
I earn some $A and SP on my BNZ credit card.

With $A for sale for cash, we'll be going back to using ASB and collecting cash back.



I've just written a quick email to them explaining how I feel the changes implemented by AirNZ undermine the business model of the Global Plus card, and that it is causing me to look at alternative (most probably non BNZ) cards.

I'd encourage anyone who shares a similar view to also write to them.

Last night I canceled a refundable longhaul J itin and rebooked in Y - already confirmed in BP on standby u/g on the way up to LAX and don't care if I get it on the return or not. I'll still fly NZ when it suits me, but the loyalty is gone.

Now that I don't care about keeping status, will just pick and choose who has the best deal for each individual trip.

As others have mentioned, I used to rely on getting u/g when traveling with family for leisure trips, but that seems to have come to an end.

I'm in agreement with ajnz - will look forward to the UA/CO flights IAH-AKL as a hopeful replacement.

Does anyone know how to contact NZ Herald? I haven't seen this in the media and all Kiwis deserve to know how NZ management has ruined an airline.Careful, I can see the headline now.

"Spoilt High status Air NZ flyers losing their travel perks."

This is really unfortunate. The loss of confirmed upgrades is such a negative step. It's also not clear to me how complementary upgrades sit in the mix.

I'm GE, and I buy (well, my employer does) my BP tickets for MEL-LAX/SFO. Every now and then, my partner joins me and all those airpoints earnt from those many work flights covers her confirmed upgrade from PE to BP. (has to be confirmed, I'm not having me in BP and her in PE, or vice-versa) This doesn't look possible now. It's a small cost to AirNZ (my reward) for the many $'000 they have earnt from my travels. And its not as if I'm taking away a revenue earner by taking up a seat for my partner using the confirmed upgrade. If the flight is full, there's no seat for her.
Its not clear how my spend on AirNZ is rewarded now. GE (or G) doesn't seem to matter, despite the fact the $ spend is high for GE because of the requirement to fly NZ metal.
If G status is all that I need for lounge access and quicker check in, that's easy using another *alliance carrier when I do my regular Europe trips. I don't need AirNZ for that.
I have other options across the Pacific, but have been loyal to AirNZ because they have great crew on board and great BP seats. Next trip to the US is end April, so I better start looking at what else is out there.
I certainly don't need AirNZ for TT flights, given those changes.

Careful, I can see the headline now.

"Spoilt High status Air NZ flyers losing their travel perks."

Me too... Air NZ is a major advertiser with the Herald, and the business desk cuts them a lot of slack.

I like the direct action of Occupy KC, but if it's positive change we're after, we'd get better results with Occupy Qantas Club, showing NZ management that those once-loyal FFers aren't afraid to get up and shift business!

Good news! I have just been informed a decision to not change current GE benefits is forthcoming. Can't verify the source yet. Watch this space. Looks like this thread is working.

We should consider an Occupy KC :D
Love it but we shloud buy Fully Flexible tickets so we can "occupy" water and feed us sending tweets and live skype on their wireless bandwith, then at the end of the day leave and get a refund or flight for the next "occupy" and do it all over again!:D

Good news! I have just been informed a decision to not change current GE benefits is forthcoming. Can't verify the source yet. Watch this space. Looks like this thread is working.

wow ... so someone actually IS listening!?

wow ... so someone actually IS listening!?

"Yesterday we announced the introduction of our new offer based upgrade system, OneUp™, which has been trialled in the North American, United Kingdom and Australian markets for almost a year now. OneUp™ lets our customers make an offer to upgrade themselves into an otherwise empty premium seat – and the customer determines what they’re prepared to pay for it, with the exception of our Gold Elites who get first preference and can buy a standby upgrade for a fixed price in recognition of their high value status. OneUp™ is a win-win for both Air New Zealand and our customers. We decide whether or not to accept a customer’s offer and obviously we gain some revenue that we wouldn’t otherwise have earned - customers get a chance at an upgrade that they might not otherwise have been able to afford. If you’re not familiar with the programme click here for more background."

Good news! I have just been informed a decision to not change current GE benefits is forthcoming. Can't verify the source yet. Watch this space. Looks like this thread is working.
I'd rather NZ killed this programme completely and start again than doing patch work to settle down angry customers....

Good news! I have just been informed a decision to not change current GE benefits is forthcoming. Can't verify the source yet. Watch this space. Looks like this thread is working.

I would like to see this change extended to *G as well. I worked it out, assuming earning *G on normal fares it costs at least $10K NZ to earn (I'm in Australia, no SCs from any credit card!). That might not seem like much, but at the same time it's better for the airline than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. Air NZ cannot and do not compete on price TT, so if they want to retain the likes of me they need to offer me SOMETHING for my loyalty.

wow ... so someone actually IS listening!?

and so they should IMHO....

Keeping this for GE should only be the interim solution
If they really put their thinking caps on, they should do some damage control to their GEs as soon as they can..... words does travel......

Although I am brand new to GE and is working hard to have 1 year banked by my anniversary this year.... I have always been anticipating the promised changes/improvements to GE what people have been talking about for a year now? Is that thought departed with the out-going Simon?

and also, we need to have the "chart for GE" pretty soon... it will still be disastrous for them if they do not get that chart right! why does AirNZ always put their HVC to the edge would be a good weekend homework for some.......

I have always been anticipating the promised changes/improvements to GE what people have been talking about for a year now? Is that thought departed with the out-going Simon?

This was, in fact, the main reason for me to continue to credit to NZ to achieve GE status. But when Bruce Parton (writing in this forum) basically said that he knew nothing about it, I lost all hope ...

Yep, here it is:

Gold Elite Airpoints Standby Upgrades
From 30 May 2012 Gold Elite members will still be able to request Standby Upgrades with Airpoints Dollars at the current Airpoints Dollars values.
Standby Upgrades will only be available to upgrade one class, from Economy to Premium Economy or Premium Economy to Business Premier. If the applicable flight only offers Economy class and Business class your upgrade will move you from Economy into Business class.
To see how many Airpoints Dollars are required for Standby Upgrades check here.

http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/frequent-flyer-booking-benefits#gold-elite-airpoints-standby-upgrades

We have received a lot of feedback over the past 24 hours relating to the changes to our upgrade programme. Much has been positive, but we have also received negative feedback, particularly from our Gold Elite members and we want to move quickly and address those concerns.

The primary driver of the change has been to gain greater achievement of upgrade requests throughout the year. We get inundated with upgrade requests at certain times of the year and at other times of the year seats remain vacant because demand for upgrades is very low. We currently fulfil over 70,000 standby upgrade requests per year, with the majority being allocated to our Gold Elite members, and this delivers many tens of millions of dollars of product value to those members.

Under our new OneUp proposal we expected that Gold Elite offers were more likely to be successful in achieving an upgrade, even when that offer was significantly lower than an offer from a Gold, Silver or Jade member, due to the enhanced premium applied to Gold Elite offers. However, we have received sufficient feedback from our Gold Elite members who would prefer to retain the status quo rather than participate in the benefits of the new OneUp offer process. So, for clarity:

Recognition Upgrades
These are the majority of the upgrade requests we receive from our Gold Elite members. We suspect in our correspondence yesterday many of you were frustrated with our changes around Standby Upgrades and therefore didn't read through the whole email to register that there is no change to your Recognition Upgrades. Your entitlement and confirmation of these upgrades will continue exactly as they do today.

Standby Upgrades
This is certainly where the feedback was most vocal! Based on the sentiments coming through we will revert back to the familiar fixed rate scheme for Standby Upgrades for Gold Elite members only. The rates will remain the same as today. It should be noted that these rates have remained fixed since 2008 despite the cost of fuel doubling in the past three years and will need to be reviewed at some time in the future. We hope you will appreciate that these are very competitive upgrade rates relative to other airlines.

This means that as a Gold Elite member, you can continue to redeem your Recognition Upgrades and request Standby Upgrades as you do today. We'll be allowing for these requests from Gold Elite members before we review the number of seats that we make available for OneUp.

However, we will be retaining the ability to only upgrade to one service class cabin higher than the original booked service class for all Airpoints™ members.

As Gold Elites you are obviously high value customers to us in commercial terms and we particularly value those who have supported our continuing efforts to innovate and adapt our business to remain competitive and meet changing needs. Thanks to those who have participated in our trials and provided constructive feedback to help us refine these new innovations.

Initiatives such as Space Plus on domestic and trans-Tasman, Gold Elite partner cards, banked years at Gold Elite, status point roll-over, priority opportunities to events like wine tastings, new product visits and events, improvements to our lounge product, additional baggage allowance and now this upgrade framework have all benefited from input from Gold Elite customers who have engaged with us and helped influence the design and we welcome this continuing feedback. To others who may have not yet had the opportunity to contact us, but were uncomfortable with these changes, our apologies that we did not get the design exactly right in the first iteration and we hope these changes address the majority of your concerns.

There is bound to be a catch.

At present GE can upgrade into Z class and R class as well as the I award bucket.

On the basis of Luxon's behavior so far, I'm betting that GEs can upgrade into I only, and maybe R. But not Z.

Two pieces of information from the email that's worth noting:

1. No more 2 class upgrades
2. Review forthcoming (ie, increase in APD required)

What a shambles. No more firm upgrades but keep standby upgrades that are significantly cheaper. I think this move means standby upgrades will be restricted in availability which is why they have gone for them above firm ones. I'm also unsure how standby upgrades work as from what I've seen most aren't firmed up until you check in? At least they have addressed that they have screwed up but given they did it in the first place to me suggests they dont get it.

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9650; en-GB) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.524 Mobile Safari/534.8+)

Too little, and too late. It is clear NZ do not understand their customers.

As a shareholder, traveller, and customer this makes me very nervous.

Hurry up UA. We need options to AKL since NZ does not want revenue.

This bizarre method of customer relations is second to none in terms in incompetence. AirNZ mgmt hatch these half baked programs without modeling them on real world scenarios, throw them at their loyal customers, defend tooth and nail they are right and accuse their HVC's of "cheating the system", then realize they goofed and amend - to a certain degree. Upsetting loyal customers to implement changes by this pendulum approach to program introduction is odd to say the least.
.....
Anyway, give it a few weeks and something else will be hatched. I'll bet 5000 Airpoints on it.

Your prediction & comments have been so accurate & they really stuck a chord with me.

While NZ have reinstated the upgrade benefit for GE's , I am not sure in my case that I will continue with NZ.The continual "spin of enhancements" has left me feeling unwanted & this was the final straw.
Having no knowledge of yield management, I can't fathom why NZ wants to lose what would appear to be a higher yielding group of loyal customers, to competitors who conversely wish to attract us.

...

While NZ have reinstated the upgrade benefit for GE's ....Not really, as per Xiaotung's recent post, it's a partial restoration - GE won't be able to use http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/themes/airnz001/images/apd_symbol_blk.gif's to upgrade from Economy to BP.

At least It seems recognition upgrades with still be able to be used to go from Economy to BP on 3 class flights.Recognition Upgrades
These are the majority of the upgrade requests we receive from our Gold Elite members. We suspect in our correspondence yesterday many of you were frustrated with our changes around Standby Upgrades and therefore didn't read through the whole email to register that there is no change to your Recognition Upgrades. Your entitlement and confirmation of these upgrades will continue exactly as they do today....

"Yesterday we announced the introduction of our new offer based upgrade system, OneUp™, which has been trialled in the North American, United Kingdom and Australian markets for almost a year now. OneUp™ lets our customers make an offer to upgrade themselves into an otherwise empty premium seat – and the customer determines what they’re prepared to pay for it, with the exception of our Gold Elites who get first preference and can buy a standby upgrade for a fixed price in recognition of their high value status. OneUp™ is a win-win for both Air New Zealand and our customers. We decide whether or not to accept a customer’s offer and obviously we gain some revenue that we wouldn’t otherwise have earned - customers get a chance at an upgrade that they might not otherwise have been able to afford. If you’re not familiar with the programme click here for more background."


Doesn't do it for me.
I'm gold, my husband is GE. This means he can still upgrade on points, but he can't gift this to me, and I can't use my points to upgrade alongside my husband when we take holidays. What good is that? I'm off. Not sure yet whether it will be United or Singapore.

Edit: Actually, that should be WE'RE off. Wives wear the pants you know. ;)
I think AirNZ have forgotten that most GEs have a "lesser status" partner they like to travel with.

Air NZ have also forgotten that all GEs started out as Silvers and Jades - why would someone stay loyal to AirNZ on a punt that they'll travel enough to make GE, when they can go with another loyalty programme and get the loyalty upgrades they want.

I just sent them an email telling them I was not impressed (and why they should care) and just urged my partner to do the same. SMcLean I would urge you and your husband to also do the same. After all, this first pullback was based on customer feedback.

I just sent them an email telling them I was not impressed (and why they should care) and just urged my partner to do the same. SMcLean I would urge you and your husband to also do the same. After all, this first pullback was based on customer feedback.

I sent them one earlier. Obviously it didn't do any good for us lowly Golds haha.
They are just that dense that they have completely disregarded the "GEs in training". ;)

They are just that dense that they have completely disregarded the "GEs in training". ;)

True enough, hey? They might care that your (GE) husband is annoyed you can't sit next to him though ;)

If I were United, I would be offering a status match from AirNZ to United as a promotional when they roll out IAH-AKL.

I'm keen.

:D

True enough, hey? They might care that your (GE) husband is annoyed you can't sit next to him though ;)



He said he's sending them an email when he gets home from work.
I'll ask him to mention that...of course he might be looking forward to time away from the wife. ;)

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9650; en-GB) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.524 Mobile Safari/534.8+)

Too little, and too late. It is clear NZ do not understand their customers.

As a shareholder, traveller, and customer this makes me very nervous.

Hurry up UA. We need options to AKL since NZ does not want revenue.

Yes, agree completely.

I particularly love the tying of fuel surcharges to upgrades...

Looks like confirmed upgrades still remain off the menu with these changes.
Why can't I spend 1150 AP for a PE to BP confirmed upgrade AKL-LAX?

And why can't G members have access to the same upgrade options as GE. The earn rate probably justifies it. People have the AP, let them spend as they feel appropriate.

I also don't understand a business that changes its mind over a 24 hour period. It really makes AirNZ look like it doesn't know what its doing.
If I did this in my job I wouldn't have one for much longer.
What a circus.

We suspect in our correspondence yesterday many of you were frustrated with our changes around Standby Upgrades and therefore didn't read through the whole email to register that there is no change to your Recognition Upgrades.


Does this seem a bit presumptuous to anyone else...?

I'm sure we all read every word in that email and registered it, twice, three times, asked our partners to read it, even showed it to the dog, etc...

Bad form NZ. :td:

I particularly love the tying of fuel surcharges to upgrades...
Yes, I thought that was fascinating too.

I also don't understand a business that changes its mind over a 24 hour period. It really makes AirNZ look like it doesn't know what its doing.
If I did this in my job I wouldn't have one for much longer.
What a circus.
Agreed. Not only do they manage to annoy a large percentage of their "loyalty program" members, they also then manage to insult the same members.

Like you, I wouldn't have a job for much longer if I did that.

No kidding!

They are condemning themselves to being entirely dependent upon the most price-sensitive and least loyal leisure passengers.

No business can afford to drive its highest spending repeat customers to the opposition while basing its product on occasional customers who are low spenders and cannot deliver profits.

We are obviously watching the first moments of a corporate train wreck. Whoever dreamed up and approved the recent Airpoints reforms will be rewarded with corporate failure. But the wonderful staff don't deserve the fate these people are condemning them to.

Very sad.

Well said and I agree with you totally that this is the beginning of a corporate train wreck.

Mark my words, AirNZ will be in a very bad state in 5 years, and all this started under the leadership of Fyfe, who for some reason is idolised by the NZ media.

No doubt, if the government sells off part of the stake that they own, all the usual suspects will blame the destruction of AirNZ on the further privatisation.

So, let me get in first and say that the destruction has begun before the further privatisation.

Does this seem a bit presumptuous to anyone else...?

I'm sure we all read every word in that email and registered it, twice, three times, asked our partners to read it, even showed it to the dog, etc...

Bad form NZ. :td:

It's just another example of their naivitiy; I don't think they realize that many people on here, know more about their airpoints program, than most of their employees. It's just more of their PR spin trying to pull the wool over our eyes, yet they still don't realize we aren't stupid.

"much of our feedback has been positive" who are you trying to fool NZ? Do you actually expect us to believe that people would take the time to respond if they saw this as a positive? People will only go out of their way to provide feedback if it's negative in this situation.

Good news! I have just been informed a decision to not change current GE benefits is forthcoming. Can't verify the source yet. Watch this space. Looks like this thread is working.

I suspected this was coming, from the response to an email I sent to Mr. Fyfe when this first came out, clearly I wasn't the only one that emailed....

FYI, the GE standby upgrades NZ says are being retained are in fact substantially different from the ones currently avail (thru May). The current/former ones could be confirmed up to a year out. The new upgrades will clear only at check-in (ie, the OneUps will get processed before the GE upgrades do).

Astonishing approach to how this airline now treats its "HVC".

Thanks NZ Commerce Commission!

I honestly believe that S/G/GE should be entitled to use the standby u/g. Getting silver is a decent feat in its self and this may be an incentive to get the leisure/occasional business flyer dedicated into the Airpoints scheme. Whats the bet the buisiness award flights will be the next to get the chop???!!

One question; I don't get any of these emails communicating this stuff, yet I'm GE. Does anyone know why that is?

I checked my profile and my email address is correct, and it certainly emails all my tickets to me at my email address.

Hmmm....as a QF flyer and Aussie from the other side of the ditch, it seems you guys have problems with your national airline too!

If I was QF, I'd reintroduce AKL-LAX. Oneworld combined with Jetstar would then be pretty competitive in NZ.

QF to Australia, LAN to South America, MH to South East Asia, CX to Hong Kong and Air Pacific around the pacific. If AA or QF introduced a US flight, NZ would be in a bit of trouble. But now they have a monopoly to the USA.

Hmmm....as a QF flyer and Aussie from the other side of the ditch, it seems you guys have problems with your national airline too!

If I was QF, I'd reintroduce AKL-LAX. Oneworld combined with Jetstar would then be pretty competitive in NZ.

QF to Australia, LAN to South America, MH to South East Asia, CX to Hong Kong and Air Pacific around the pacific. If AA or QF introduced a US flight, NZ would be in a bit of trouble. But now they have a monopoly to the USA.

You got that right! Too bad QF just pulled out and I don't think AA would ever do that, but as I have lifetime gold with AA would certainly be nice for selfish reasons.

I honestly believe that S/G/GE should be entitled to use the standby u/g. Getting silver is a decent feat in its self and this may be an incentive to get the leisure/occasional business flyer dedicated into the Airpoints scheme. Whats the bet the buisiness award flights will be the next to get the chop???!!

As a lowly silver member, plus koru, I agree with this. There are some of us out there who have been flying with NZ for more than 20 years, have been loyal. I think we deserve some reciprocal loyalty. Frankly to have to enter an auction to apply for upgrades is insulting. People who, like me, travel infrequently compared with some of you, but who pay extra to have Koru entry when we're not travelling business class are also being treated as worthless.

And, as I and others have said, there's no point in trying to earn airpoints dollars any more through the credit cards such as Kiwibank Gofly. We might as well revert to cards such as Westpac where we can get cash back for any travel, accommodation etc. The rewards are not limited to NZ.

Angry - yes I am. And I'll be writing to Bruce Parton expressing my views.

Angry - yes I am. And I'll be writing to Bruce Parton expressing my views.

Nzlilibet I suggest you copy your email to Rob Fyfe (robert.fyfe@airnz.co.nz) the CEO, David Mackrell (david.mackrell@airnz.co.nz) the head of "loyalty" and Christopher Luxon (christopher.luxon@airnz.co.nz) who the call centre are fowrading feedback to. They are the people who most likely have the power to change this.

Air NZ have also forgotten that all GEs started out as Silvers and Jades - why would someone stay loyal to AirNZ on a punt that they'll travel enough to make GE, when they can go with another loyalty programme and get the loyalty upgrades they want.

Exactly why I'm starting to look for another Star Alliance member to send my future points to. Chances of me getting to GE are pretty slim in the near future but when I do get to an equivalent status, I actually want to be able to say that there's something worth it for me to want to do that.

"much of our feedback has been positive" who are you trying to fool NZ? Do you actually expect us to believe that people would take the time to respond if they saw this as a positive? People will only go out of their way to provide feedback if it's negative in this situation.

I also found it amusing that people would write in applauding Air NZ's efforts

"much of our feedback has been positive" who are you trying to fool NZ? Do you actually expect us to believe that people would take the time to respond if they saw this as a positive? People will only go out of their way to provide feedback if it's negative in this situation
It is a continuation of the spin that NZ has embarked upon the last 18mnths.It only antagonised me more & now determined to look at the my other two options.This bull.... from them is so demeaning.Are we all twits?
Have emailed my thoughts tonight to the the fast disappearing Loyalty area;)

If I was QF, I'd reintroduce AKL-LAX. Oneworld combined with Jetstar would then be pretty competitive in NZ.

Right on - QF could make some hay with this.

I'm at a conference in DEL right now with a lot of frequent travelers from various parts of the world who were stunned when I mentioned what NZ had announced, given that FFPs and travel is a common discussion point for many of us outside work conversations. Universal thumbs-down on the Airpoints FFP, and this reflects negatively on the airline.

Few things are more ingratiating than a corporate spin department claiming that people email spontaneously about how great it is that they have lost the ability to buy certain value airpoints upgrades. It is the solipsistic view that the people it is communicating with are average consumers who know little beyond the advertising spin, so will swallow whatever is sent out, when in fact many HVCs are quite savvy because they adjust their travel according to loyalty, because of various rewards they get with it. I've lost count of the times I've picked NZ (and other Star Alliance airlines where NZ isn't available) over other airlines because of the ability to spend airbucks on upgrades for some NZ flights.

Australian Business Traveller today coincidentally published this article about how Aegean Airlines offers the easiest way to get Star Gold status (http://www.ausbt.com.au/shortcut-to-star-alliance-gold-frequent-flyer-status?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=flipper&utm_campaign=home-flipper).

Besides a couple of recognition upgrades, NZ Gold offers nothing above that, and in terms of redemptions I may as well save up for a long haul Star Alliance reward flight in C (or F).

The backflip on GEs tells something, and will dampen down some of the noise, but is marginal for me, as I flick between GE and Gold depending on travel patterns (NZ gets a lot of non-NZ status points from me being UK based).

I guess NZ will be happy if I spend a year earning little on its programme and spend down my airbucks with a couple of long haul business class redemptions, and move on whilst getting Gold status elsewhere.

Not a upgade person myself.

Newbie question here: generally speaking do other *A FFPs let status members get them easier or are they first come first serve :confused:

In that past could a Jade member or another FFP use APD/points for upgrades if they didn't want a Y award fare? Being v flexible with dates of course.

I too find it very strange people have written to NZ praising the changes, when few have yet had the time to write complaints which typically are much faster to be written.

Not a upgade person myself.

Newbie question here: generally speaking do other *A FFPs let status members get them easier or are they first come first serve :confused:

In that past could a Jade member or another FFP use APD/points for upgrades if they didn't want a Y award fare? Being v flexible with dates of course.
It depends on the program and the policies, but waitlisting is almost always sorted by status. Immediate clearance based on inventory can be available "first-come-first-served".

Jade members used to be able to upgrade, yes. Not often, but it would happen. I've been in relatively empty business cabins where Jade members would have been able to clear easily.

Thinking about this I see one or a mix of two things:

Much to their surprise, "Management" was flooded with communication (including Emails) from revenue intensive clients expressing dismay as the changes
or
The complaints were expected all along and the relaxing of the change in relation to gold elites is a planned strategy.If the former, they have done it incorrectly - it looks "knee jerk". Maybe they should have awaited a week or so to consider more things, like the effect on GE Partners.

If the latter then they have their strategy wrong!

The newly amended T and C expose today's restoration of Gold Elite standby upgrades as an utter fraud.

Until 30 May, Gold Elites can have their Standby upgrades confirmed 355 days out.

From 30 May, their Standby upgrades can only clear at check-in, after everyone else's OneUp upgrades have cleared.

So unfortunately we have just been sucked in for a few hours by the propagandists from the spin office.

Gold Elite only entitles bearers to apply for the leftovers when zero status passengers with no loyalty haven't paid for the seats.

So in the space of 28 hours we have had our loyalty trashed in the original email, have been insulted by a poorly-disguised airline employee on this forum, have then been lied to about imaginary positive feedback and then to top it all they have lied about restoring the HVC's upgrade privileges.

I know that the CEO has already announced his departure, but don't they think that Gold Elites are going to notice when their "restored" standby upgrades don't clear?

How feckless and stupid do they think we are? Most Gold Elites are more successful in their line of work than all but a handful of Air NZ staff. Don't they understand that we know this system and are almost all smarter than them?

At first I was just disappointed and planned my exit strategy. But the layers upon layers of spin and lies are starting to make me quite annoyed.

Other programmes I have been familiar with, including QFF, BA Exec Club, UA Mileage Plus have always cleared upgrades by status, which is logical and does promote loyalty.

I know the time I was declined an NZ upgrade I had Silver. My partner has cleared upgrades as Jade, but we picked those flights because they were quiet in the PE or BP cabins, so the chances were greater.

I'm annoyed I didn't get the email advising of this, as someone who has been Gold Elite and Gold for every year bar one (dropped Silver for a few months) for 16 years, who has recommended NZ to others because the loyalty paid off.

Another big downgrade, especially for Gs and GEs.

But, this was inevitable since OneSmart was introduced. With the ability to buy unlimited Air Points at face value, GEs effectively had unlimited confirmed upgrades - something which I don't think any other FF programme offers, and which was never going to be sustainable.

On the bright side, since everyone has access to One Up upgrades, there's basically nothing to keep NZ FFs tied to Air Points any more. NZ Gs and GEs can feel much better about switching to another *A programme that offers better rewards value and easier status.

WHAT A LOAD OF PR CRAP


Why are they treating their best customers like this?

WE ARE NOT THAT STUPID.

Gold Elites can request upgrades as before?

But can we confirm 365 days out???

That still seems unclear to me

On the bright side, since everyone has access to One Up upgrades, there's basically nothing to keep NZ FFs tied to Air Points any more. NZ Gs and GEs can feel much better about switching to another *A programme that offers better rewards value and easier status.

The bright side is more likely the dark side for NZ. As these people get familiar with another programme they will likely fly that airline more. UA entering the market will change things dramatically.

While I am on UA, I quote Jeff Smisek "treating each other with respect and dignity and never tell a lie". At the moment NZ management is full of spins and lies.

This guy Luxon knows what he is doing?

The original idea of Oneup is totally flawed. It says upgrades will be decided between 3 and 7 days. What if someone cancels his Business ticket 1 day or 2 days prior or no show, as there will be no standby upgrades, these seats will be left empty? I can't believe they hadn't thought about this.

They also said that status would be irrelevant as the upgrades will go to the highest bidder. Then in the 2nd email within 24 hours, they had this: "Under our new OneUp proposal we expected that Gold Elite offers were more likely to be successful in achieving an upgrade, even when that offer was significantly lower than an offer from a Gold, Silver or Jade member, due to the enhanced premium applied to Gold Elite offers."

Each time they are telling us different things. I am sick and tired of this. Giving NZ my loyalty 9 years ago was the biggest mistake I have made.

Could be a huge opportunity for QF - I have never seen so much anger!

Further to my thoughts before, perhaps QF should think about an expansion of NZ-registered Jetconnect aircraft? Launch flights to LAX, DFW and SIN from AKL and some improved Tasman connections from WLG and CHC from Sydney. Status match Gold Elite members and NZ could be in trouble!

Another big downgrade, especially for Gs and GEs.

But, this was inevitable since OneSmart was introduced. With the ability to buy unlimited Air Points at face value, GEs effectively had unlimited confirmed upgrades - something which I don't think any other FF programme offers, and which was never going to be sustainable.

I figured that the moderator of such a strategy however was that if a GE continued to buy up the instant standby upgrades they would compromise their ability to retain GE-although I guess there was a bank years as well.

this forum reminds me of the pprune forum where you have a group of individuals (there pilots) ranting and raving about the loss of their unsustainably high salaries and lynching anyone that might point out that they are earning a hell of a lot of coin flying planes around at the expense of shareholders.

Ultimately commercial reality bites gentlemen.

One up gives the 99% of flyers not GE the chance to upgrade in a simple way which will increase uptake and benefit NZ financially. As a shareholder I welcome the initiave.

As for you respected HVC's (except Kman DCF) I hope you are able to negotiate a suitable settlement with NZ. The problem with confirmed upgrades is that it gives you no incentive to buy the class because you can confirm the upgrade. AP Upgrades should not be certain - they should be available only when the class is not sold out.

From where I stand you guys will still have it good with the one up since it should be easy enough to outbid the average punter, and if NZ adds say $200 to each GE bid and $100 to each G and $50 to each Silver before ranking the bids then like I say - you are a shoe in.

Just chill out - bunch of spoilt kids

Standby Upgrades
We hope you will appreciate that these are very competitive upgrade rates relative to other airlines.

This means that as a Gold Elite member, you can continue to redeem your Recognition Upgrades and request Standby Upgrades as you do today.


Very competitive?

Let's test that.

Assume an Auckland based (or London based) passenger is prepared to fly PE to/from London/Auckland. The choice is NZ crediting to Airpoints, or QF/BA crediting to QFF. There is no PE product TT, so the assumption is the passenger is in economy for that leg of the trip.

What does it take to upgrade all segments to business?

On NZ it is currently 1920 Airpoints dollars
On QF it is currently 140,000 miles (including the TT segment)

That can't be compared until you measure what it takes to actually EARN those.

What does one earn flying on those airlines on that route?

NZ in PE earns you 340 Airpoints dollars for AKL-LHR return
QF in Y AKL-SYD and PE SYD-LHR earns you 29148 return if you are Bronze up to 53022 in Platinum (equal level to Gold Elite).

So what is the ratio of earning to spending to undertake the upgrade, or rather how many PE flights on each airline do you need to fly to earn enough points/miles to buy the upgrade to business on the sector.

For NZ it is 5.6, meaning 6 return flights in PE to earn one return upgrade
For QF it is 4.8, meaning 5 return flights in PE if you are Bronze, BUT if you are a HVC it can be as low as 2.6, meaning 3 if you are Platinum.

So NZ very competitive? No. Unless you consider being able to buy Airbucks undermines this. Bear in mind you can buy top up points with QFF as well, but no more than 15% of an award. So that doesn't undermine it.

What does it take to gain status?

For simplicity I am comparing the Gold status equivalent because it offers priority check in, extra luggage allowance and business class lounge access across the alliance networks.

NZ in PE AKL-LHR-AKL earns 330 status points
QF in Y/PE AKL-SYD-LHR-SYD-AKL earns 320 status points

However, the threshold for eaching Gold for NZ is 900 (810 for renewal) and for QF it is 700 (600 for renewal). So in actual fact, even for renewal, you can do this trip twice on Qantas and retain Gold, but it takes three trips on NZ to retain Gold.

Now of course, a NZ based FF can always get odds and ends of status credits on domestic flights to top this up, but the conclusion is that it isn't that generous.

Yet what other options are there? How about Emirates. Here it looks even better.

If one can tolerate discount Y class AKL-LHR-AKL you can earn 21,000 miles. You only need 87,500 miles to upgrade from discount economy to business return on the route, meaning an earn/burn ratio of just over 4 from DISCOUNT economy, not full economy (and there is no PE). On top of that Emirates Gold status (not that it is worth much outside Emirates) only takes 2.4 return flights in discount economy.

I haven't calculated what CX would earn/cost given it is rolling out PE as well, but I doubt it is worse than NZ.

Finally, it is clear that Gold Elites ARE worse off than today. No longer can they redeem standby upgrades up to a year in advance for confirmation.

Moreover, the claim that Gold Elite OneUp bids would have "higher value" is new, so it might be helpful if people knew what that meant. Is it something like a 50% premium on Gold Elite OneUp bids and if so, why not 25% for Golds, 10% for Silvers or whatever?

There appears to be a serious breakdown in NZ in terms of testing ideas properly before rolling them out - such as virtually abolishing Space + TT, the whole "new long haul" Spaceseats and catering, and now this.

What does it take to upgrade all segments to business?

On NZ it is currently 1920 Airpoints dollars
On QF it is currently 140,000 miles (including the TT segment)

That can't be compared until you measure what it takes to actually EARN those.


Except: on NZ you don't have to *earn* those Airpoints dollars. You just buy them for NZ$1920.

lastly - I can prove im not NZ employee and am in fact just a concerned shareholder.


All New Zealand residents/taxpayers are NZ shareholders! :rolleyes:

Except: on NZ you don't have to *earn* those Airpoints dollars. You just buy them for NZ$1920.

Only if you are a NZ resident. Not an option for Australian, UK etc residents.

Which means an obvious answer is to deny airpoints upgrades to NZ residents (but not others), which is itself absurd.

One option is to make airbucks bought through OneSmart into a separate category only able to be used for Air NZ flight rewards.

For the same problem happens with buying Airbucks to buy Star Alliance flight rewards (5280 airbucks for SQ First class AKL-SIN return, not that the reward could easily be found) or Star Alliance upgrades, although both of them are heavily rationed by inventory. Companion ticket rewards also create this problem, but these are inventory rationed too (although 4460 airbucks return in business AKL-LHR is worth buying compared to paying the full fare or even PE). Also consider 6340 airbucks for SYD-LHR in Upper Class on VS, rather good value if you prebuy using OneSmart compared to discount fare of around NZ$9700.

So it is the OneSmart buying of Airbucks to unlimited levels that creates this problem.

This can be addressed by capping the amount that can be bought or simply making the purchase linked directly to a reward so that the maximum percentage that can be bought is a fraction of the reward (e.g. 25%).

Then the 1920 airbucks would mostly have to be earned by the various "normal" means, with the top up really only being for those needing to cross a threshold.

Ultimately commercial reality bites gentlemen.

One up gives the 99% of flyers not GE the chance to upgrade in a simple way which will increase uptake and benefit NZ financially. As a shareholder I welcome the initiave.
As a shareholder, I am not welcoming this. I can see that I will shift my business away from NZ, as will colleagues, friends, and associates. That is not good for my shareholding since I do not believe they will increase revenue from this endeavour and certainly not to the point of replacing the lost revenue from passengers who have given up.

To put it in perspective, I used to fly the Tasman weekly - I commuted from NZ to Australia. I earned zero Airpoints and zero status points (this is pre-Status points) since I was usually on Smart Saver fares. What did I do? I shifted my business to QF, and both saved money since their fares were lower, but also went from zero QF status to initially buying a QF Club membership, to having retained QF Gold since 2007 and earned miles for all of this. This of course meant I diversified my spending between NZ and QF when in the past I would not have done that.

I repeatedly pointed this out to NZ, along with colleagues who also did the same level of commuting, to eventually see status points introduced - but my spend remained split - the damage already done. Each time NZ pushes me a little further away, to the point now where I simply will not spend on NZ if there is a viable alternative. That is not good for business.
Assume an Auckland based (or London based) passenger is prepared to fly PE to/from London/Auckland. The choice is NZ crediting to Airpoints, or QF/BA crediting to QFF. There is no PE product TT, so the assumption is the passenger is in economy for that leg of the trip.
AFAIK QF PE fares book into business on the Tasman anyway. They certainly used to.

As a shareholder, I am not welcoming this. I can see that I will shift my business away from NZ, as will colleagues, friends, and associates.


This only really affects GEs. Are all you colleagues friends and associates all GE? Are some of them not - and will be stoked with the chance do bid for better seats?
Will they all shift away just because they cant get confirmed upgrades. If this was the only reason to fly NZ then I will be damned.


To put it in perspective, I used to fly the Tasman weekly - I commuted from NZ to Australia. I earned zero Airpoints and zero status points (this is pre-Status points) since I was usually on Smart Saver fares. What did I do? I shifted my business to QF, and both saved money since their fares were lower, but also went from zero QF status to initially buying a QF Club membership, to having retained QF Gold since 2007 and earned miles for all of this. This of course meant I diversified my spending between NZ and QF when in the past I would not have done that.


Id be surprised if QF are cheaper than NZ and they certainly dont offer space+ nor the comprehesive schedule. Since NZ are now achieving sustainable profit on the TT when previously they weren't we can conclude that on the whole the loss of you and your mates associates and w.e wass outweighed by the increase in market share and load factor.

The newly amended T and C expose today's restoration of Gold Elite standby upgrades as an utter fraud.

Until 30 May, Gold Elites can have their Standby upgrades confirmed 355 days out.

From 30 May, their Standby upgrades can only clear at check-in, after everyone else's OneUp upgrades have cleared.

Gold Elite only entitles bearers to apply for the leftovers when zero status passengers with no loyalty haven't paid for the seats.



AND, the GE standby fixed amounts are higher than the OneUp minimum bid amounts! So, if seats are actually still available after the OneUp bidders have been successful (and I think we can easily assume that one or more of those OneUp bidders will bid the minimum AP200 and if these non-HVC are successful (which is why empty seats would be avail at check-in for the GE folks), then the GE would be paying AP220 and have the lowest priority for the UPGs whilst the non-HVC got the seats for fewer AP.

Astonishing approach!!!

NZ, the more you spin this, the more damage you do to HVC impressions of you. If you actually want this to work, you do the following:

Maintain the original standby upgrade approach for all AP members as well as adopt the OneUp program:

1. Clear the fixed fee standby upgrades for GE/G/S based on the original hierarchy (eg, the last clearing is at T-48 hours and its for Silvers).
2. Then, clear the OneUp upgrades at T-48. These pax would have bid their amounts at least 7 days out.
3. Then, clear the fixed fee standby upgrades for the non-status AP members at check-in (or T-24), as you do today.

Easy peasy. You actually retain benefits to your HVC and you also fill up the cabins with non-freq travelers who earned their AP not by flying you but by using your financial instruments.

This only really affects GEs. Are all you colleagues friends and associates all GE? Are some of them not - and will be stoked with the chance do bid for better seats?
Will they all shift away just because they cant get confirmed upgrades. If this was the only reason to fly NZ then I will be damned.

For many I suspect this is the final nail in the coffin.

AirNZ are obviously banking on the incremental revenue from those bidding due to one-up (who otherwise wouldn't have used points under the standby/confirmed upgrade system) exceeding any loss in revenue from frequent fliers shifting business away. This seems to me to be quite the gamble, particularly given it's the loyal frequent travelers who provide the easy-money base load in times of economic uncertainty and slashed marketing budgets. Presumably AirNZ management think the opposite, otherwise they wouldn't have made this change.

It's far harder to model the intangible benefit and detriment caused by such changes to a loyalty program than the financial side of things. Just look at the original move to remove Space+. Sure things might be stable across the Tasman now, but how much brand damage and increased costs (aircraft reconfiguration) did that entail?

I was a fantastically loyal AirNZ traveller up until mid April last year when AirPoints earning was slashed on international routes. As a consequence I shifted my FFP to United. Not a big deal if it's purely for points earn and burn... however it's resulted in my loyalties shifting. I no longer travel on RTWs ex-NZ which is a loss of ticketing revenue, a couple of long haul sectors, and spent standby upgrades per itinerary to NZ. My North America to Europe travel has shifted away from LAX-LHR on NZ. But perhaps what may prove most damaging to NZ; IAH-AKL will be a viable and probably preferred route for me and many others due to the United upgrade and loyalty program being far superior.

IAH-AKL should never have been a viable gamble for United. AirNZ appear to be doing their best to increase their odds though. (No it's not viable purely because of me, but given the strength of the United MileagePlus, I am certain that will be the deciding factor for a number of pax).

All of my travel is in paid Y, which is why upgrades are an important benefit to me. I have many many colleagues who travel in paid premium cabins. They don't hear much positive word of mouth regarding AirNZ anymore. Not because I am bitter, but because I am honest. BP is still fantastic, great crew, service, food, and wine. But the overall AirNZ product has slipped - to the point where previously cruddy airlines such as United are actually on a par, if not better than AirNZ overall.

Best of luck to AirNZ in pursuing their current strategies. It hasn't been working for me so my business has been shifting elsewhere.

Id be surprised if QF are cheaper than NZ and they certainly dont offer space+ nor the comprehesive schedule. Since NZ are now achieving sustainable profit on the TT when previously they weren't we can conclude that on the whole the loss of you and your mates associates and w.e wass outweighed by the increase in market share and load factor.

Maybe. But how much of the airline's troubles on long haul routes can be attributed to frequent fliers ditching NZ due to the Tasman changes? I don't know the answer to this, maybe it's significant, maybe it's not. That's why Fyfe and co. get paid the big bucks I guess!

This only really affects GEs. Are all you colleagues friends and associates all GE? Are some of them not - and will be stoked with the chance do bid for better seats?
Will they all shift away just because they cant get confirmed upgrades. If this was the only reason to fly NZ then I will be damned.

Id be surprised if QF are cheaper than NZ and they certainly dont offer space+ nor the comprehesive schedule. Since NZ are now achieving sustainable profit on the TT when previously they weren't we can conclude that on the whole the loss of you and your mates associates and w.e wass outweighed by the increase in market share and load factor.

You don't get it do you?

The Gold Elites are the people this airline makes its money from, every airline makes its real revenue from selling premium seats. If you p!ss off the people that buy those seats and they then don't buy your product, where is your revenue with the high margin going to come from?

I personally am on an anti AirNZ crusade and have been for sometime, currently I'm making 3 trips to Europe every 7 weeks. I know I am only one, but, Is that the sort of revenue AirNZ should miss out on? Now, from this thread you can see how many people have said they will not fly AirNZ because of this move and AirNZs ongoing treatment of us all, by way of their marketing spin implying we're all idiots.

If you were a smart investor, you should have been one of the first on the blower to Fyfe, because surely you can see the brand destruction going on here.

I'm not a shareholder and never will be, except grudgingly through gummint ownership, but any smart share investor knows that if you're not selling your high revenue product, then you won't be making any money. I either have to assume you're not a smart investor, or you're talking bollocks when you say you own AirNZ shares.

Generally I find QF to be cheaper on the Tasman routes, but not by any really significant amount, however, AirNZ is usually cheaper for business, but nowhere near as cheap as Emirates on the Tasman.

Some of us fly a lot, and whilst we don't run an airline, I think that from some of our flying experience we might know a little bit about what makes a good airline great, and what creates brand loyalty to an airline. Loyalty has to be one of the most important aspects of running an airline - if you're not getting repeat custom, you're clearly not satisfying your customers.

As I have stated a number of times, I personally think AirNZ is great, but they are operating in a free market and there are other equally great airlines out there that value my custom more. Until AirNZ rewards me for my loyalty in a halfway decent way, as other airlines do (I don't even expect to be rewarded as well as other airlines, but most importantly, I do not expect to be treated like a bl00dy idiot as AirNZ has done over the last few days), then AirNZ will not see a brass razoo of my money.

Now, as a shareholder, that should CONCERN you.

If you actually want this to work, you do the following:

Maintain the original standby upgrade approach for all AP members as well as adopt the OneUp program:

1. Clear the fixed fee standby upgrades for GE/G/S based on the original hierarchy (eg, the last clearing is at T-48 hours and its for Silvers).
2. Then, clear the OneUp upgrades at T-48. These pax would have bid their amounts at least 7 days out.
3. Then, clear the fixed fee standby upgrades for the non-status AP members at check-in (or T-24), as you do today.

Easy peasy. You actually retain benefits to your HVC and you also fill up the cabins with non-freq travelers who earned their AP not by flying you but by using your financial instruments.

If you actually want this to work, you do the following:

Throw the Program out the window and return to a traditional Frequent Flyer Program

Easy peasy.

There, fixed that for you SFO_FT

This only really affects GEs. Are all you colleagues friends and associates all GE? Are some of them not - and will be stoked with the chance do bid for better seats?
It impacts more than Gold Elites. It impacts all Airpoints members, but in particular Silver/Gold/Gold Elite. A significant number of my colleagues, friends, and associates are Gold Elite or Gold, and many hold status on multiple airlines. Not a single one that I've had the (brief) chance to speak to has thought this is a positive change for the passenger or the airline.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread I am currently at a conference where the majority of attendees traveled to get to. When I mentioned this change, people were rather startled an airline would attempt to remove this benefit from their loyalty program. At least one person stated, "I would fire the airline immediately".
Will they all shift away just because they cant get confirmed upgrades. If this was the only reason to fly NZ then I will be damned.
It is not the only reason, but the loyalty program has suffered death by a thousand cuts. If you read FlyerTalk for any length of time you will see the only benefit of the Airpoints program people have talked about since 2004 has consistently been upgrades. In removing upgrades, NZ have removed the only real benefit - I've never used Airpoints for anything other than upgrades, and it is completely worthless to me without them.

If you don't see this, then I suspect you don't understand the business and mentality of the frequent traveler (in particular those on this site).
Id be surprised if QF are cheaper than NZ and they certainly dont offer space+ nor the comprehesive schedule. Since NZ are now achieving sustainable profit on the TT when previously they weren't we can conclude that on the whole the loss of you and your mates associates and w.e wass outweighed by the increase in market share and load factor.
Note the past tense I used in my previous post. I no longer commute the Tasman, but QF were cheaper at the time - usually $10-20 cheaper for their Red e-Deals vs. Smart Saver, and earned QFF points. Some recent TT itineraries have also shown QF, a full service airline, to be cheaper than NZ's seat-only product.

I'm not sure there's significant argument for 'comprehensive schedule' on the Tasman, it's pretty inflexible overall - NZ do have a slight advantage but it is not amazing.

The point you are missing is that NZ's loyalty program's structure at the time encouraged me to adjust my spending patterns and use a new airline that I previously never used. Once I did this and discovered benefits that were useful to me, the spend never returned to NZ. i.e. their policies drove revenue away. That trans-Tasman business is now international revenue in addition - I have less loyalty to NZ/Star. This is not a good business model for any airline -- and I suspect I was highly profitable to NZ since I was averaging AUD$800 a week on trans-Tasman return fares in addition to my other travel.

To put my situation in perspective: I travel enough on NZ to qualify for NZ*G with ease every year -- and I only credit NZ flights to NZ, all my other 200,000+ miles goes to UA or QF and their partners. My total travel expenditure is significant on a per annum basis and many New Zealand based colleagues are in a similar situation.

AFAIK QF PE fares book into business on the Tasman anyway. They certainly used to.
Yes if "I" of "D" fare buckets are available if only "J" then they book into Economy (discount at that eg. not "Y" fare bucket). Which dramatically changes the calculations libertyuk did (thanks for that it illustrates the "value proposition" very well. I tired tellling NZ executives what this meant once at a function and they really did not understand that value does not equal $).
As many of you know I understand what NZ is trying to do. I do not agree with it and consider Airpoints a very bad FFP, but NZ is trying to make a general loyalty programme which as you have seen creates issues for those still expecting it to be an exclusive frequent flying loyalty programme. I, like a few others here, choose other FFPs and airlines over NZ and only fly/credit domestically, I d not have my FlyBuys or CC spend directed at any airline.
IMO the NZ of the future is trying to be a leisure airline with Premium products on long haul and selected short haul schedules. It is not a LCC, look at the fares and also see what is happening in the US and Eurpoe:rolleyes:, so calls for it to be thrown out of *A is not called for.
There understandably has been much OTT rantings, which is to be expected, but recognise what NZ is and wants to be and if it does not suit you do what others have done and direct your custom elsewhere. Freedom from slavish adherence to captive "loyalty" programmes is very liberating and you can save $ or be amazed at what opportunities are out there (OK I am still an oneworld Emerald addict but it suits me:o).
So please tone the personal attacks, (definitely not against the innocent NZ staff), it is against FT policy, and discuss the topic and what is written, NOT the poster.:)

First time posting to this forum! (Long time lurker. Clearly not a plant!) Just emailed Air NZ about this. I think it's an absolutely abysmal change, if one that we all saw coming when the 1:1 buy ratio came in... I agree with the poster above me that APDs bought with OneSmart should sit in a different bucket, and that would have kept the upgrade prices / values relatively safe. They were never worth $220, they were worth the ridiculous amounts of flying/credit card spend you had to do to earn $220 APDs.

I wish I had more options to change FF programmes, but as it is I earn my Gold status each year with a couple of US trips, a couple of TT and a whole lot of domestic... limits my choices. That being said, I'm sure I'll find something if the trend with NZ continues. It's incredibly sad.

Even with the latest changes for GE, if I'm travelling with my GE partner it means I've zero certainty around upgrades for her. How many GE would want to fly upgraded whilst their partner isn't? You can be sure that loyalty to partner will come above loyalty to an airline.

It is also an insult to suggest that we didn't read or understand the email. When you consider that most people with GE status are likely to be in occupations where the are often reviewing complex documentation it beggers belief that they can't read a simple email.

Just to stick my head out :p Just an observer here. I thought that confirmed upgrades were a bit generous, and the 2 class upgrades. I could understand to give people standby upgrades and GE get more priority but if you give them a year in advance to get a confirmed upgrade would many (not all) bother with paying market price...

And of course the OneSmart card allowing one to top up has been it even more complicated.

I would do away OneSmart, make it one level upgrade only, keep standby but get rid of confirmed upgrades. Maybe put a v small pool of non status member standby upgrade and if not taken 48hr status members could take that too.

One would think that in future AirNZ might require a few flights on AirNZ per year to get status. Does AirNZ get anything out of it ... if peopel fly with partner airlines but get the SP/APD off AirNZ :confused:

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9650; en-GB) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.524 Mobile Safari/534.8+)

Since confirmed upgrades required both high fare class bookings and more Airpoints Dollars, I see no problem with them. Many airlines operate on a similar basis.

All upgrades are inventory controlled, confirmed, standby, or standby for Gold Elites. Just like on other airlines. NZ wasn't being especially generous.

The point you are missing is that NZ's loyalty program's structure at the time encouraged me to adjust my spending patterns and use a new airline that I previously never used. Once I did this and discovered benefits that were useful to me, the spend never returned to NZ. i.e. their policies drove revenue away. That trans-Tasman business is now international revenue in addition - I have less loyalty to NZ/Star. This is not a good business model for any airline -- and I suspect I was highly profitable to NZ since I was averaging AUD$800 a week on trans-Tasman return fares in addition to my other travel.

To put my situation in perspective: I travel enough on NZ to qualify for NZ*G with ease every year -- and I only credit NZ flights to NZ, all my other 200,000+ miles goes to UA or QF and their partners. My total travel expenditure is significant on a per annum basis and many New Zealand based colleagues are in a similar situation.

This rings so true for me. More than anything else I am saddened by the progressive deterioration of the airpoints program. I see FF programs more as enticements to fly rather than payback for prior loyalty but the AP program fails miserably on both

Many years ago I was unhappy with the AP program and instead went with the UA program and then added QF. I had always been hoping however that the NZ program would improve sufficiently for me to redirect travel back to NZ. At present I am NZ silver but was gold last year and have been considering the idea of making GE. This however make my decision easy and now I really don't care what my status is and will likely fly even less on NZ

Despite progressive but small reductions in benefits over time from the UA program, it will remain my primary program and airline. I'm now a MM on UA after the readjustment but even before that I was up to nearly 700K BIS which i'm sure would have translated into a lot of revenue for NZ. In addition to that the upgrade benefits still by far exceed those I would have with NZ. Only once in the last 5 years have I missed an upgrade (and I upgrade everyting upgradeable) and it is now about 3 years since I last needed to support an upgrade with miles. Hence now I am a hair short of a million MP RDM's

In the last 3 years or so have started to fly much more on QF (although only to Asia Pacific destinations). The deterioration in the QF program has been much more significant that for the UA program but the benefits still by far better those of NZ especially for those with platinum status (which is far easier to acheive on QF than GE on NZ)

So far I have a lifetime BIS of 1.5M+ of which only about 15% has gone to NZ. I would dearly love to change that as I do like flying NZ. Right now however, it isn't going to happen

Whilst this post may appear to be boastful, that was not my intention. My point is that the value of the FF program does significantly impact on revenue and NZ should take this into consideration. I see the changes as outlined being very bad for NZ and it's FF'ers. Yes some will benefit but NZ should not be trashing a group of very important customers, many of whom will leave and not return

Jeff

I don't usually post to this forum. My husband is GE and I have the gold partner status. He only gets GE because he flies just about every week full fare to Auckland - so we are not your 'big time' GE travelling internationally all the time but I guess if you added up all the guys in the office doing this type of domestic travel it would amount to some business for NZ.

I'm just confused since that 'one' card came through. Does it mean if we don't have enough airpoint dollars to do a GE upgrade we simply top up the one card points with cash and we're away. As you can see we don't really use the upgrades much, no time with kids etc and even let those recognition upgrade vouchers lapse last year. We're just saving up our airpoints dollars for a biggish trip some time. I have everything geared up towards Air NZ airpoints, the credit card, flybuys diverted etc. I'm getting a few clues though to some other options re the posters on this thread. I think it's all getting a bit complicated with the air nz airpoints, it used to be quite straight forward. BTW I have no idea how to 'game' the system. Can someone let me know, I'd like to try it. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.flyertalk.com/get/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

Nzlilibet I suggest you copy your email to Rob Fyfe (robert.fyfe@airnz.co.nz) the CEO, David Mackrell (david.mackrell@airnz.co.nz) the head of "loyalty" and Christopher Luxon (christopher.luxon@airnz.co.nz) who the call centre are fowrading feedback to. They are the people who most likely have the power to change this.

Thanks for that suggestion. I've done exactly that especially because I've always found Bruce to be extremely helpful and I don't think he should cop all the flak.

I also intend to write to Kiwibank GoFly as they are in danger of losing a fair amount of business back to Westpac.

Ellice i mainly fly domestic and some trans-tasman and i've clocked up 2400 SP in 11.5 months, mainly flexi-fares also, i'm pretty sure Air NZ would be happy with me as a customer. Unfortunately I fly a lot of regional routes too so I don't have a lot of choice when it comes to flights...

A last and final warning to all to stay on topic and comment only on the post content and not the poster themselves. Accusing others who may have a different view to be airline employees is not very FT like and will invoke TOS violation procedures.

Regards Oliver2002
Senior Mod

This forum does not seem to have noted the background of the new General Manager Loyalty, Commercial and Development:

David has been Deputy CFO at Air New Zealand for more than 5 years at Air New Zealand for more than [20] years

David started his professional career at Ernst & Young as an Auditor before joining Air New Zealand in 1992 as a Financial Accountant. Since then David has had a number of financial and commercial roles within Air New Zealand. David was appointed Vice President Finance in December 2001 and then Deputy Chief Financial Officer and General Manager Group Finance in October 2004. In February 2009 the focus of David’s role changed to Corporate Finance with responsibility for Treasury, Funding, Financial Planning and Investor relations. David has also spent time on secondment running the Tasman/Pacific Airline division and has led a number of strategic projects for the company.

David graduated from the University of Waikato with a Bachelor of Management Studies (Hons) majoring in both Finance and Accounting.

While the contents of this thread does not affect my personal travel luckily, I would say this second e-mail that we received as Gold Elite members yesterday is the most defensive e-mail I have ever read.All New Zealanders are shareholders, so it's a wee bit redundant really.This is a very simplistic view that forgets the airline is also a listed company. Certain FTers have accrued huge personal losses attempting to bet on the financial performance of the airline, numerous quite frankly wack management decisions, and equity market perception of the same.

Libertyuk - thanks for all the analysis and cold hard facts re NZ claims. I used to think that NZ was really good on their FF offerings and as an airline in general but there is, now I realise, a lot of smoke and mirrors going on behind their communications and marketing with regards to their FF programme. I will need to read the fine print (and flyertalk forum) more closely in future when choosing our household's travel strategy for the year...

The newly amended T and C expose today's restoration of Gold Elite standby upgrades as an utter fraud.

Until 30 May, Gold Elites can have their Standby upgrades confirmed 355 days out.

From 30 May, their Standby upgrades can only clear at check-in, after everyone else's OneUp upgrades have cleared.

So unfortunately we have just been sucked in for a few hours by the propagandists from the spin office.

Gold Elite only entitles bearers to apply for the leftovers when zero status passengers with no loyalty haven't paid for the seats.


WOW. That is breathtaking arrogance on the part of AirNZ.:td:

This forum does not seem to have noted the background of the new General Manager Loyalty, Commercial and Development:

Wow, they appointed an accountant to run the marketing department. What was Rob Fyfe thinking? I have seen accoutants destroy and jeopardise all sorts of operations and marketing plans in my working life. No good can come out of this. I am seriously researching a better *A program.

I spend a significant amount on many of my credit cards for business. I used to transfer them into APD. Now with onesmart top up, why would I still do that? The purpose of the direct earn credit cards is that banks pay airlines straightaway so airlines get the cashflow above a cut. QF direct earn credit cards are their best commercial partners. If I was in charge of GlobalPlus, Go Fly, ANZ Airpoints, or NZ Amex, I would be seriously concerned. Onesmart top up does not encrouage flying. It does not encourage the use of NZ's many financial, hotel, rental car partners.

In Australia at the moment, all Amex airline partners are participating bonus points promo when you transfer Membership Rewards points with the only exception of NZ. Giving Airpoints a real dollar value and having no control over reward inventory are always a dangerous thing. Perhaps this is the main reason why NZ is never interested in any sort of partner promotions. How hard is for NZ to realise consumers like promos and bonus? NZ is sure losing out when other airlines constantly promote bonus points. It's called marketing. When was the last time NZ gave Airpoints members double points?

I would say they dug their grave when they invented APD and the top up function now is the final nail in the coffin. There is no way out unless a revamp is done.

I have a feeling that Rob Fyfe only knows how to push for innovations but he has forgotten practicalities and reality checks.

don't really use the upgrades[/B] much, no time with kids etc and even let those recognition upgrade vouchers lapse last year. We're just saving up our airpoints dollars for a biggish trip some time. I have everything geared up towards Air NZ airpoints, the credit card, flybuys diverted etc. I'm getting a few clues though to some other options re the posters on this thread. I think it's all getting a bit complicated with the air nz airpoints, it used to be quite straight forward. BTW I have no idea how to 'game' the system. Can someone let me know, I'd like to try it. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.flyertalk.com/get/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif

If you are not using a lot of upgrades, IMHO there are better programs away from AirNZ. Depends of course if you are mainly travelling in NZ/AU/Islands then I guess there is some merit to put up with AirNZ.

At least the v cheap fares you still get status points.
If you were with another FFP and flew those routes in cheap fares on AirNZ you might not get anything. If you book other type fares, you need to look at AirNZ complicated table. That earns you dollar points. Then you can use them on the market place.

If you have Gold / Gold Elite until May 2012 when this change kicks in, I think it is about upgrading using your APD for confirmed or you can try your luck on standby. You need a certain type fare thou of course. If you want a nice trip maybe get a decent fare and upgrade to Premier Business? Come May 2012 or end of that month, you may need to bid against all other people ...... but then you could just use your compl. upgrades that you get as a Gold or Gold Elite. Mmm... if you don't generally use them all ... when you go you can use those ... but saving APD for rewards that's not easy to get. Yeah you could use the OneSmart and top up .... and use them for rewards. For me I don't like to top up ... cos why not just use cash. If you do your usual travelling get the dollar points then it's a accidental treat IMHO. Depends how much APD you need of course....

IMO, you pay a decent fare and use your upgrade vouchers and flog APD.
If you have enough APD, buy yourself a fare with it ... and assuming it is allowed then use your voucher for upgrade. You could top up funds if you don't have enough at least it is cheaper than paying it all yourself.

If you have vouchers, does one need to bid. Be flexible for your dates of course. Of course they could deny your voucher on that day that you bought ... :rolleyes:


If you were to go with another FFP, you may earn 100% per mile or 125% on business class. Like Wellington to Auckland someone here got 300M odd points (600 return). 12,000 NZ to Asia return generally. 28,000 to Europe and back. A free return Asia is generally 60-70,000 or about the same if you want to upgrade from Y to Business.

I don't spend as much money as some in maintaining Gold Elite status; but it is not insignificant.

Being top level with both Qantas and AirNZ I do have a choice. I find QF generally works better for me travel-wise, especially with the introduction of S2S by AirNZ. Also, with Qantas travel I have access to better lounges at AKL International, Sydney and Melbourne.

For T-T travel, QF fares have been generally comparable with NZ Works fares. However, I chose to pursue GE.

With that, last year I travelled Trans-Tasman much more on NZ than on Qantas last year (22 v. 4 times). Also, I did generally, pay the additional for works

Last year I travelled on over NZ$7500 worth of "New Zealand" flights - this could easily have been on other airlines if it were not for the need for those 810 SP's for GE requalification.

I also flew internally within NZ 9 times rather than on Jetstar+; I find prices are comparable when the plus is taken into account and booking well in advance (as 99% of my bookings are).

With this change I find no further reason to pursue Gold Elite status; I can go back to row four on Jetconnect trans-tasman 73H's and not have to pay extra for Food, Beverages, IFE and luggage.

Oh, yes, I'll also go back to earning FF points as well rather than just SP's.

I could just be that I am not the type of passenger that Air NZ is really interested in - if that is the case then so be it.

A sad thing to say. I just dug out from my pile of old documents an entry level KrisFlyer card which I hadn't touched for at least a decade. Will call them to retrieve my PIN. Most likely I will transfer all my credit card points all to KrisFlyer.

I can see all Airpoints partners cancelling their contract.

I find QF generally works better for me travel-wise, especially with the introduction of S2S by AirNZ. Also, with Qantas travel I have access to better lounges at AKL International, Sydney and Melbourne.

For T-T travel, QF fares have been generally comparable with NZ Works fares. However, I chose to pursue GE.

With that, last year I travelled Trans-Tasman much more on NZ than on Qantas last year (22 v. 4 times).

With this change I find no further reason to pursue Gold Elite status; I can go back to row four on Jetconnect trans-tasman 73H'sand not have to pay extra for Food, Beverages, IFE and luggage.

Oh, yes, I'll also go back to earning FF points as well rather than just SP's.


and have you noticed that often it's less than $ 100 each way to upgrade to the fully flex QF Y class fare? Not the shock you get on www.airnz.co.nz/.com.au when you take their suggested option and click on the box to add flexability!!!

and have you noticed that often it's less than $ 100 each way to upgrade to the fully flex QF Y class fare? Not the shock you get on www.airnz.co.nz/.com.au when you take their suggested option and click on the box to add flexability!!!

Same as SQ even on long haul. The differences between earning and non-earning fares are tolerable.

So changing for GE but NZ have typically missed the big point - they have devalued mine and everyone else who has flown and spent money on CC they push to earn APD.
There will be others like me who only get to Gold (150 short of GE). I was saving my APD to try for a companion J class to UK - pay full for one and buy the other with the hard fought APD. Now I can just buy the APD I need for a companion ticket and pay one J and easy peasy.
So okay the GE have gained a very little, but everyone who has scrimped and spent and flown to earn APD has been told to bugger off, we don't care, well Mr NZ I think you have overestimated a lot of people.
As for the ones who see this as a win win for NZ, yes, they get some money in for empty seats (how long before service standards drop), they get rid of their APD liability a lot quicker and start making money - but why not give more notice, why kick people like me (selfish yes) who had a target in mind and suddenly find we could have saved all the thousands on travel and just bought the APD, yes we the little people have also been harmed. My paid J fares to the islands and Aus now , why did I bother?
An answer Mr Fyfe as to why on the eve of leaving you have allowed so many (in my opinion) destructive changes to what was once a great FFP?

Rayonline – thanks very much for those handy tips. I had better get cracking on some travel plans before the 31 May deadline. We do have $5000 of airpoints dollars so will use those first and then the recog. vouchers. I may be on the phone for some time with the airpoints centre!! Unfortunately my husband can only travel with air nz for work, the company has deals with them. I always thought the upgrades and airpoints dollars were reward for the family for never seeing him as he was always at the airport… I’m definitely changing away from the ANZ airpoints credit card and the flybuys diversion – what’s the point??

I guess, as others have commented, NZ is having to do this because of the huge liability building up in their balance sheet relating to airpoints dollars – effectively accounts payable debt for them and regarded as part of the working capital equation when NZ goes out to fund debt. The financial people at NZ have obviously directed the FF dept find ways to get the average Joe Bloggs to use up some of their airpoints. I just think it has been done in a rushed and ill thought out way that has disadvantaged their top customers. We are certainly finding out reaction from their HVC base through this forum. You have to question the calibre of some of the NZ management staff putting out this sort of stuff.

It all seems to have arisen when NZ changed to the APD system. By doing that they no longer have the option to ‘hike’ airpoints reward prices in the normal way when their costs are going up. They could hardly announce airpoints dollars are now exchangeable at $1.5APD to $1 for rewards. If QF needs to move the goal posts they simply ask for more points for rewards. The APD system has hamstrung this.

Don’t get me wrong, NZ is very dear to my heart, I live in NZ and it is the only airline really offering the full set of timetables, services, lounges etc and I do think at times that they are very innovative as far as airlines go. I hope they can sort this one out without alienating too many of their HVC who are undoubtedly the 20% of the flyers providing 80% of the revenue.

A sad thing to say. I just dug out from my pile of old documents an entry level KrisFlyer card which I hadn't touched for at least a decade. Will call them to retrieve my PIN. Most likely I will transfer all my credit card points all to KrisFlyer.

I can see all Airpoints partners cancelling their contract.


I agree.
I put my first spend in years on my ASB CC last night. It was very convenient to be able to just log into my bank account and see that spend there this morning (and coming through in almost real time!).

Bye bye BNZ Global Plus CC.

Dilemma time. Like many of you I have for a number of years turned up cheaper fares or direct routes in order to clock up SC's flying NZ metal, to achieve and then maintain GE status. Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed the travel, and have always thought the NZ product was a good one.

I read with interest a number of posters saying that they used to be highly proud of NZ and espoused said pride to all that would listen, but don't any more. On reflection I must admit I am the same. Very sad :(

The announcement this week made me seriously start looking and researching other programmes. Sadly, the massive and embarrassing flip-flop 24hrs later hasn't really made me change my mind.

At the potential rate of decline of GE's based on the comments in this thread alone, GE's are likely to be an endangered species within 18 months. Does anyone know how many of us there are at present?

Here is a copy of an email I just sent to Rob Fyfe and David Mackrell:

Gentlemen:

I am writing to express my dissatisfaction with the recently announced change to the Airpoint program. I am a GE member and have been so for several years.

I fly TT once or twice a month and to Europe 2 - 3 times a year - the latter in business class. I have tried to remain loyal to Air New Zealand, even though other airlines often would have been a more sensible choice - i.e AKL - CPH easy with SQ or TG, more cumbersome with NZ having to go through LHR.

NZ BP is a good product but not any better than J in SQ, which is cheaper than NZ. QF often have sales on F to Europe out of AKL that is competitively priced with NZ BP, and the F product is superior especially in the A380.

I have steered most of my flying though to NZ because of the ability to request upgrades either for myself or for my family. I am self employed and the cost of flying comes out of my own pocket, so upgrades have been an important benefit for me and for my family.

First the Airdollar earn rate TT was slashed. Then the value of Airdollars was slashed by the introduction of one to one Airdollar purchase.Then confirmed and standby upgrades were killed off. Finally stand by upgrades for GE was reintroduced but on a much more restricted basis.

The reintroduction just does not do it for me. It only allows one class upgrade, and the upgrade will only be confirmed on day of departure. I presume that to mean that only if seats are left over after the one-up upgrade purchasing is over 3 - 5 days before the flight - only then might I get an upgrade. My GE status really has not given me any benefit.

I also do not understand the rationale behind the new upgrade system. Why would anyone buy BP any more when you can buy PE and then bid whatever for an upgrade. If everyone stopped buying BP and just bid for an upgrade surely it would have a negative economic effect on NZ.

I see little reason to continue flying NZ. QF is just as easy TT, competitively priced, has business class (easy to upgrade in to) and offers full service on all fare classes. As a Platinum member I can use the fantastic F lounge in MEL or SYD. I earn points on all fare classes with QF, get extra points because of my status, and the earn/burn ratio is significantly better on QF than on NZ. SQ is an obvious choice to Europe (if not QF F).

If you would change the upgrade system so G / GE stand by would have preference over one-up's (and allow 2 class upgrades), and have these confirmed before the one-ups I would stay with NZ.

I take it you have done the math, and you may have decided that losing many FT members like me is inevitable collateral damage. I think it is sad what has happened to the airline I used to support so vigorously.

Kind regards

I read with interest a number of posters saying that they used to be highly proud of NZ and espoused said pride to all that would listen, but don't any more. On reflection I must admit I am the same. Very sad :(



I feel the same.
I took an awful lot of pride in flying and supporting my own national airline. But I just won't continue do that if it's going to be to my own considerable detriment. My husband will just follow me to whatever programme I choose and when he takes junior staff overseas they are very likely to fly whichever airline he chooses (he books the tickets). I would imagine the same sort of scenario will play out for a significant number of FFs, their families and staff.

It's a very sad week for AirNZ and their (formerly) loyal customers.

I am getting confused now.

I was personally contacted by an NZ staffer today to follow up on the automatic emails - interesting in itself. She said that GE stand-bys could still upgrade automatically if there was r inventory and this wasn't changing and the r inventory was unchanged and exactly the same processes would apply vs. what some have posted here about only clearing at check-in.

What the truth is, is really important to me: complete status quo then no issue for me but if only ever clear at check-in , then a big issue and makes the difference.

I am getting confused now.

I was personally contacted by an NZ staffer today to follow up on the automatic emails - interesting in itself. She said that GE stand-bys could still upgrade automatically if there was r inventory and this wasn't changing and the r inventory was unchanged and exactly the same processes would apply vs. what some have posted here about only clearing at check-in.

What the truth is, is really important to me: complete status quo then no issue for me but if only ever clear at check-in , then a big issue and makes the difference.

One thing they consistently achieve is their appalling communication skills. I don't even have any interests to find out. I am leaving Airpoints.

I have just received an email from David Mackrell pursuant to the complaint I sent yesterday. He said the rationale for the changes was to spread upgrade demand throughout the year, and that those of us who have not heard from Air New Zealand should get an email sometime in the next 48 hours.

He also said that as a HVC OneUp bids "could be" given a higher weighting than lesser bids from those with lower status. So my loyalty "might be" worth something when applying for an upgrade, as opposed to other airlines where loyalty *is* worth something when applying for an upgrade. I'm going to wait for the official communication, but if there are no changes I am going to write back pointing exactly this out.