Hilton HHonors - Bribery as Waldorf upgrade strategy?

I spent a recent three-night award stay at the Waldorf, and on checking in, witnessed the following exchange at the registration window directly ahead of me:

Guest: Are there any upgrades available?[slides $100 bill onto countertop]
Clerk: Let me check, sir! ... Ah, I have a suite in the Towers, will that be acceptable?
Guest: [couldn't hear, but presumably, "Yes"]
Clerk: [discreetly slides $100 bill into pocket]

Is this a common practice at the Waldorf, or at other similar hotels? I actually couldn't believe my eyes/ears -- I felt like I had been transported to Mexico or Russia, where bribery is at least an accepted and understood means to an end.

I must say, witnessing this exchange tainted my otherwise fairly pleasant stay (not least because I *certainly* did not receive an upgrade -- unless a room directly across a narrow hallway from an elevator can be considered an upgrade).

Digression:
Really didn't expect too much as Gold on an award stay, though you'd think they'd at a minimum want to give you a room without holes in the carpet. Still, I did manage to receive the complementary breakfast at least, but only because I knew to correctly answer the question "Mr. Luxurio, do you drink?"

On the plus side, the bell staff, housekeeping, concierges, and restaurant staff were all wonderful. Perhaps not enough to overcome the foul taste in my mouth and make me consider a paid stay, but still quite professional and pleasant.

But I just can't stop thinking about this guy waving his money around...do any of you FTers make a practice of this, or have witnessed similar?

Would Hilton or the GM be interested in learning about the above exchange, or is it simply entendu, an accepted part of the hotel industry?

Curiously disappointed in the Waldorf,
lux

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by luxurio:
But I just can't stop thinking about this guy waving his money around...do any of you FTers make a practice of this, or have witnessed similar?

Would Hilton or the GM be interested in learning about the above exchange, or is it simply entendu, an accepted part of the hotel industry?</font>

Personally, I've never witnessed anything as blatant, and neither would I ever consider doing it myself. I find such behavior reprehensible, especially at such an esteemed property. I have no doubt whatsoever that both Hilton HQ and hotel's GM would be very much interested in learning about the situation you happened to observe.

I had never heard of such a thing - until my recent stay at the Ritz Carlton in San Juan. I noted that the Club lounge - supposedly (and at every other Ritz I have stayed at) for the exclusive use of guests staying on the club floor, seemed quite crowded. I met at least two couples who had slipped $50 to the front desk clerk to secure club floor acess!

On a seperate note, I recently stayed at the Waldorf Towers. My Waldorf Suite was upgraded to an Ambassador Suite. The first suite they brought me too literally had been renovated in the 1930's. At least that is clearly the vintage of the bathroom fixtures, tile, and furniture. When I asked if they had something that had been renovated a bit more recently, after a five minute speech about capital improvements being on-going, I received a suite that at least had been redone in the last decade. Still some of the furniture was at least 50 years old, with chips, missing pieces and scratches (these were not quality antiques in other words). When I checked out they did not inquire how my stay was. I would have told them that I would not return. And I won't. The hotel (and this was the Towers) was a disgrace.

I don't know how common it is in other cities, but according to the Las Vegas forum in the FT Travel section, and from what I have read on other travel boards, it is pretty common in Las Vegas.

http://www.flyertalk.com/travel/fttravel_forum/Forum5/HTML/000071.html

Prior to my career as an itinerant FlyerTalker ( http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif ), I did work at a 4 star hotel as bellman then bell captain (got me $7 bucks an hour in 1989!), waited tables, and worked banquets at a 5 star hotel.

Having been through life (and h*ll) on the "other side", I tip well as a general rule. And I try to think of people that make my stay pleasant that may not always be considered tippable: front desk clerks, housekeeping, banquet/buffet servers, even maintenance guys if they go above and beyond. Recently I tipped a front desk clerk I've gotten to know over repeat visits as a gesture of thanks for always making sure I'm taken care of, which includes what I deserve as a Gold: upgrades, breakfast coupons, etc.

But I'm talking tips. $5, $10, etc. I've never seen or heard of $50, $100, or more, from either side of the fence. But it has occured to me that it probably is not uncommon, just as I have met people that carry $50 and $100 bills for "tippping" the maitre d'.

I think the fact it exists merely exposes a regrettable but nonetheless true fact of life: money can usually get you what you want. That doesn't mean I don't think the practice is corrupt. In fact it is, and I believe that corruption harms both parties by reinforcing an ethic that values material gain over other values.

But just as I don't let the corrupt public and corporate officials ruin my day, I'm not going to let someone else's bribe ruin my day. The same when I'm travelling in a third world country, and I get hit with $1 to $5 "administrative fees" by border officials. It isn't worth sweating it unless I am being hit up for an onerous amount of money.

I guess I try to cultivate an outlook of gratitude for not being caught in the trap. As a bellman, waiter, and banquet server, I always got my best rewards, monetarily and otherwise, when I focused on serving my customers and providing them with what they needed without concern for my financial reward.

[This message has been edited by Rut Dog (edited 03-03-2003).]

Please keep in mind....

Bribery (or "tipping," if you please) ruins it for the rest of us.

Additionally, it distorts the rules of the loyalty program, and it undermines the concept of work for pay (the employee-employer relationship).

To be perfectly honest, if I knew it would make a difference, I wouldn't hesitate for a second. The only caution I would throw out is if you try this outside of the US where it may be considered rude. I haven't tried it myself yet as I have received some nice upgrade due to status in the hotel program although I have paid for an "official" upgrade from the front desk at the Conrad Singapore on an award stay.

I've certainly seen it done in Vegas, but not in New York. I have slipped a concierge $50 up front to get him to work on theatre seats for me, but I think that's an incentive, not a bribe. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

As for the Waldorf -- I have never understood what's so magical about this property. A firm I used to work for put us up there regularly, and between the dawdling, disinterested check-in, the ancient and sometimes small rooms, the broken or shabby fixtures, furniture and amenities in the rooms, outrageous room service prices, etc., there are lots of NY hotels I'd rather be in.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by korea71:
To be perfectly honest, if I knew it would make a difference, I wouldn't hesitate for a second... </font>

Ditto.

This thread is timely given my recent Waldorf experience. Last month I attended a 3 day conference at the Waldorf. I checked in with a business associate and as a Diamond I was upgrade to a suite. Lacking any Hilton affiliation my colleague, a diehard Starwood patron, slipped the desk clerk $50 and he too was instantly upgraded. He later told me that his "gratuity strategy" works at most hotels.

A tip or a bribe? In the circumstance initially described, it is a bribe, pocketed by someone who is stealing from his employer for his own benefit. True, upgrades can be offered either as an elite benefit, or for some other service related reason. But this must be formally approved and done through official channels. It certainly does not appear that such was the case at the Waldorf. The real question is what was the final rate charged for the upgraded room?

Paying more than the cost of a commodity, a ticket as mentioned, is up to the person paying the additional money. It is a concierge's job to obtain such items for a guest, and the guest's discretion to tip or not.

Uuummm interesting, although I am not surprised. I stayed at the Waldorf and the staff indicated that they do not upgrade rooms(I was/am DIAMOND), nor did they give me access to the lounge. The Desk Clerk indicated that patrons who paid to stay on the Exec Floor were disgruntled with the large number of people in the lounge therfore they have discountinued giving access based on status. I avoid the Waldorf when all possible. The Hotel is highly over-rated!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsdown.gif

I am surprised to hear that the Waldorf said they no longer upgrade Diamonds and don't provide lounge access. I stay there a couple of times a year and have always been upgraded (Diamond and no "tip" necessary) or been given a room on the Executive floor. I would suggest checking in at Diamond Reception (small office to the far left of Registration, behind bellman desk). Also recommend that you fill out a Diamond Profile with them if you plan on frequenting the hotel. May also help to call ahead to fill out a profile if you don't have one on file.

I'm running 100% upgrades at Waldrof since I became diamond, without passing any bills over.

The Waldorf does, in fact, continue to upgrade Golds and Diamonds regularly. Whomever informed you that they don't upgrade HHonors elite members should go through training again, because it's not true.

My 70+ nights this year have always given me an upgrade of some type, usually an Astoria Level suite(floors 25-27). This is otherwise referred to as the Club level.

My Gold and Diamond colleagues, too, get equal treatment on their stays.

The hotel is showing it's wear on those floors that haven't yet been renovated. But that multi year project is underway and the new rooms are quite nice. It takes time and lots of $$$ to rennovate a 1000+ room hotel.

[This message has been edited by PHL (edited 10-08-2003).]

PHL~
I am a HH Gold. This past May I stayed at the Waldorf Towers on the Am EX FH&R program. They didn't upgrade the first night because they said they didn't have anything available. In the morning I inquired about an upgrade stating that I was a HH Gold. They flat out told me that I was going to be upgraded but not because of my HH status but because I booked through the Am Ex FH&R program. They weren't snooty or anything, just stated it as though it was a fact. Does the Towers NOT upgrade HH members?

How come there seem to be lots of people confusing tips and bribes? Isn't a tip something that you give to someone after having received good service (or just service as the case is in the US) usually a small percentage of the transaction such as 10 - 20% and a bribe giving money to someone in exchange for receiving (not after having received something) a service that you are not really entitled to.

Slipping someone $50 and them stepping outside of their procedures for personal gain would be an illegal bribe in my book.

Thank god for Iceland where tips are considered offensive and bribery very, very rare.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by traveler4ever:
PHL~
I am a HH Gold. This past May I stayed at the Waldorf Towers on the Am EX FH&R program. They didn't upgrade the first night because they said they didn't have anything available. In the morning I inquired about an upgrade stating that I was a HH Gold. They flat out told me that I was going to be upgraded but not because of my HH status but because I booked through the Am Ex FH&R program. They weren't snooty or anything, just stated it as though it was a fact. Does the Towers NOT upgrade HH members?</font>

The AMEX FH&R program already provides for an upgrade. It's a prenegotiated rate in many ways, even though you settle it with the hotel on check-out (vs. a prepaid rate to a 3rd party like Priceline).

If you had booked a normal rate through Hilton or a travel agent, and a room is available, they will upgrade you. If they tell you "we don't upgrade HHonors Gold's", then you would be within your rights to take it up with a manager or HHonors Customer Service.

But in all my experiences there, as a Diamond and Gold, both the Conrad/Waldorf Towers and Hilton/Waldorf=Astoria are well in line with the program when the upgradeability is there.

I would think the computer systems in Hotels would not let a front desk cleak just upgrade anyone to a suite without some type of a management approval... I guess not...

The cost of running a suite for the night isn't markedly higher in real dollars than that for running a regular room (at least for the typical kinds of suites in downtown business hotels - LV high-roller suites are ridiculously "fragile", and are so rarely rented to guests who are directly paying for their rooms as to not matter for this discussion).

So, as a hotelier, I may have N guests coming and some fraction of the rooms are suites. I've got paid reservations for some smaller fraction of the suites, so I've got suites left over to sell, and it's not costing me a lot of actual cash to use that room instead, nor is it costing me lost potential revenue, because suites are very, very rarely walk-in business. Thus, I can generate some cheap goodwill; hence, upgrades.

Enough with hotel economics 101; the real question here is, "why give desk clerks the authority to upgrade people for any reason" - and the answer is simple; they know who will be a good upgrade. Someone willing to extend some appreciation to the desk clerk is (most likely) going to tip the chambermaid, isn't going to have screaming kids pushing all the elevator buttons, and has sufficient income to possibly return for discretionary travel later on. The gratuity is just a marker for a "better" long-term investment for the hotel, and it goes a long way towards making the clerk feel appreciated.

Note: I would rarely use anything much larger than a $20 for these purposes; I don't think the results are 5X more spectacular with a $100.

Eric, Who Does Tip With The Intention Of Better Rooms

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by VibeGuy:
I've got paid reservations for some smaller fraction of the suites, so I've got suites left over to sell, and it's not costing me a lot of actual cash to use that room instead, nor is it costing me lost potential revenue, because suites are very, very rarely walk-in business. Thus, I can generate some cheap goodwill; hence, upgrades.</font>

As the initiator of this thread, I can attest that witnessing this "transaction" did not generate any goodwill for the hotel. Rather the opposite. If paying the clerk instead of the hotel is accepted practice for all hotels, that would be news to me. I would think that management would view this as an ethical gray area at best.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Enough with hotel economics 101; the real question here is, "why give desk clerks the authority to upgrade people for any reason" - and the answer is simple; they know who will be a good upgrade. Someone willing to extend some appreciation to the desk clerk is (most likely) going to tip the chambermaid, isn't going to have screaming kids pushing all the elevator buttons, and has sufficient income to possibly return for discretionary travel later on. The gratuity is just a marker for a "better" long-term investment for the hotel, and it goes a long way towards making the clerk feel appreciated.</font>

Actually, Eric, the real question is NOT should the desk clerks have discretion to upgrade -- of course they should. It's happened to all of us, I'm sure. However, I would think that being a Gold/Diamond member of HHonors should suffice to qualify a guest in all the ways you suggest above.

Certainly a clerk should have the ability to recognize truly upscale clientele and treat them appropriately, but I hardly believe that waving cash around is the definition of a classy guest. My bet is this guy didn't leave a tip for housekeeping, since he figures he's already paid up front. On the other hand, I, a Gold member on a 3-night award stay (100K HHonors points) with a child (too young to push elevator buttons...), left a very generous tip each day.

Obviously the Waldorf, as a flagship property, does things a little differently (so that, as at the St. Regis, being a repeat guest carries more weight than being a member of the parent company's loyalty program). Still, I was surprised to see the transaction and my image of the hotel suffered a blow. Call me naive if you like, and perhaps I am.

I was just wondering how widespread this practice is, and apparently its more common than I once believed.

Thanks for enlightening me, all.

lux

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by luxurio:
Actually, Eric, the real question is NOT should the desk clerks have discretion to upgrade -- of course they should. It's happened to all of us, I'm sure. However, I would think that being a Gold/Diamond member of HHonors should suffice to qualify a guest in all the ways you suggest above.

</font>

Elites are more important to the parent company than the individual property. *shrug* A zillion HGI stays mean very little to individual properties. While individual property owners certainly appreciate the loyalty to a property, many operate under several brands, none of which may be affilliated with any other (I personally know owners who have properties under five or six of the majors). Most desk clerks also aren't programmed to think about long-term systemwide customer value (which is sad, actually, but another topic for another time).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Certainly a clerk should have the ability to recognize truly upscale clientele and treat them appropriately, but I hardly believe that waving cash around is the definition of a classy guest. </font>

I agree wholeheartedly; doing it with some degree of subtlety is considered tactful; I tend to think waving money around in any setting smacks of nouveau riche. As a part of a family that is in the biz, I have instructed desk staff to politely, yet clearly, refuse any gratuitously proffered gratuity, while being sensitive to everyone's feelings, incouding the guest offerring and the other guests who may be present (a simple "oh, mr x, that's really not necessary, but thank you for offerring). Please also note that I didn't suggest that "classy" guests should be upgraded; it's the guest that represents the best chance of treating staff decently (including discretionary compensation such as tips, simple human kindness or, most importantly, a good word with management)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
My bet is this guy didn't leave a tip for housekeeping, since he figures he's already paid up front. On the other hand, I, a Gold member on a 3-night award stay (100K HHonors points) with a child (too young to push elevator buttons...), left a very generous tip each day.
</font>

And I'm sure it was appreciated, but I maintain that people who grease the skids with the desk clerk are widely regarded as guests who tip generously in other settings. I'm pretty sure I know the phrase "big tipper" in all the common languages of housekeepers in our area. ;0)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">
Obviously the Waldorf, as a flagship property, does things a little differently (so that, as at the St. Regis, being a repeat guest carries more weight than being a member of the parent company's loyalty program). </font>

You have hit the nail on the head, but it's not just flagship properties. Any smart hotel has long-since added in-house tracking and analysis to their back-of-house systems, and we know who the whales are, and can predict with surprising certainty who will be a long-term valuable customer, exclusive of their relationship with the brand at large.

Eric, Who Swears We Don't Track Who Buys Adult Movies On The PPV, *Really*. ;0)

I suppose in some larger sense, it depends on the reason behind the tip/bribe/whatever. Does the tipper tip to get something better for themselves (let's generously call this "enlightened self-interest," I suppose), to impress others (this guy was with a female companion), or to reward staff for a job well done?

I believe that the last possibility is the most laudable and probably most common, but it clearly doesn't have much "bang for buck."

But I also acknowledge that the world doesn't work the way it does because people treat others fairly and with regard to their value. And that the sudden appearance of money can change the outcome in your favor. I just wish it weren't (quite so obviously) so, and I wish I hadn't seen it. I don't feel personally victimized [although I sure could have used an upgrade! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif ], but it just felt so ... "Sopranos." I guess if I wanted to be a "playa" I'd whip out the mazoola, too. But one of the appealing things about staying in a grand hotel is being made to feel grand, even if you're not a Grasso, Ken Lay, or Hilton sister. I don't mind so much in Vegas, because, hey -- I'm no whale. I'm just there for the goofy architecture....

I'm just going to float off to my idyllic dreamland now, far away from reality (no, not California!).

lux

Do you think this will work on my upcoming stay booked at the priceline rate?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I am still laughing after reading this thread.

This is coming from a nation that tips 20% to everyone with a pulse. And some with NO pulse.

1. Crappy and disinterested service at a restaurant. You add $20 to a $100 check and think nothing of it. Table of 8 or more they'll do it for you to save you the brain work.

2. Tip $10-$20 to smelly dirty surly and rude cabbies who barely speak English (on a good day) and drive like lunatics in NYC from airports.

3. But are horrified a $50/$100 tip will secure a Suite for a few nights.

I know where I see the 'value' in the 3 scenarios above. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif



------------------
~ Glen ~ sipping bubbly from a UA 747-400 exit row 15 near you SOON!

Not *quite* sure what Ozstamps is on about, other than that tipping is an institution (maybe he doesn't realize how *little* waiters get paid in the U.S.?), but I thought I should take the opportunity to give an update on the Waldolf's response to me.

After the last time this thread was resurrected, I received an email from the W=A manager, who asked me to call him. I did so, and again restated the events. He agreed it was inappropriate behavior for his staff and, seeming quite serious, said he would look into it (he asked for some information identifying the offending clerk, for example).

I have no idea if there was any actual follow-up on his end, but I was at least impressed with the effort he took to track me down and hear my version of events.

He also suggested that I should come visit him the next time I am a guest.

I'm probably going to be in NYC in a few months, and will certainly be more favorably inclined towards the W=A than I might have been, as a result of his personal attention.

lux

Having done the $20 upgrade in Vegas many times, I think that everyone benefits in this situation. The guest is happier with the suite upgrade, the desk clerk who makes $8 an hour is happy and the hotel is happy when the guest returns to the hotel and/or spreads goodwill about the hotel. I guess the only person who isn't happy is the person behind in line who doesn't want to tip the desk clerk...and ends up with the room he booked...as they say, each to his/her own...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by PHL:
The Waldorf does, in fact, continue to upgrade Golds and Diamonds regularly. Whomever informed you that they don't upgrade HHonors elite members should go through training again, because it's not true.

My 70+ nights this year have always given me an upgrade of some type, usually an Astoria Level suite(floors 25-27). This is otherwise referred to as the Club level.

My Gold and Diamond colleagues, too, get equal treatment on their stays.

The hotel is showing it's wear on those floors that haven't yet been renovated. But that multi year project is underway and the new rooms are quite nice. It takes time and lots of $$$ to rennovate a 1000+ room hotel.

[This message has been edited by PHL (edited 10-08-2003).]</font>
I think you are wrong about the Diamonds automnatically being given access to the club. I have been Diamond for 5 years.
I have stayed at the Astoria evcery year. In May 2003 I stayed there twice and both times after checking in at the Diamond Desk I was told that i would get 2 breakfasts daily and after asking twice for access I called the Diamond desk at reservations and complained. After demanding that they call the Hotel they came back and said the the Waldorf does NOT have to ugrade diamonds to the astoria Level as it is a DIFFERENT part of the hotel.
They had spoken to the Duty manasger.
There are many threads about this.
I think you are the exception rather than the rule!!!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by xray:
Having done the $20 upgrade in Vegas many times, I think that everyone benefits in this situation.</font>

Everyone benefits from bribery? I think there are some in Mexico and Russia who might disagree. Bribery is a milder form of corruption. Expected, perhaps in Vegas, but unwelcome at a supposedly elite property like the Waldorf. Remember that flashing cash is not now, nor ever has been, the epitome of class. Again, accepted practice in Vegas. Not in New York -- at the best restaurants, for example, you never see a bill.

Whatever works for you, though.

lux

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by tinkybelle:
I think you are wrong about the Diamonds automnatically being given access to the club. I have been Diamond for 5 years.
I have stayed at the Astoria evcery year. In May 2003 I stayed there twice and both times after checking in at the Diamond Desk I was told that i would get 2 breakfasts daily and after asking twice for access I called the Diamond desk at reservations and complained. After demanding that they call the Hotel they came back and said the the Waldorf does NOT have to ugrade diamonds to the astoria Level as it is a DIFFERENT part of the hotel.
They had spoken to the Duty manasger.
There are many threads about this.
I think you are the exception rather than the rule!!!</font>I've been given coupons for Oscars and upgraded to a suite. They said that the club is in a different hotel (Towers) so I wouldn't get access. These were the folks at Diamond reception, BTW.

I would call it good tipping. After all TIP means TO INSURE PROMPTNESS!

I have seen this kind of tipping in Vegas at a 24 hour cofee shop ( I think I was in the Mirage). Some guy had a big night and he tipped the waitress as she was seating him!

I asked him about it. Next thing he did was to put my tab on his tab! Arguing with him was extremely futile. I graciously thanked him and left. I think the staff in Vegas sees this kind of thing all the time.

Funny that people get all worked up over a hundred bucks slipped to a low-level hotel flunky, but say nary a peep about…

….a member of Congress who was recently offered a bribe for their vote on a Medicare bill,
http://slate.msn.com/id/2092242

…or that a supposedly impartial Supreme Court justice vacationed with the very person who has a case pending before the bench,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4036900/

…or that politicians solicit fat-cat jobs from the special interests that lobby them.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42531-2004Jan23.html?nav=hptop_tb

I suppose it’s easier to beat our chest about little things while ignoring the stench of the massive, systematic corruption that surrounds us.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by senatorgirth:
I suppose it’s easier to beat our chest about little things while ignoring the stench of the massive, systematic corruption that surrounds us. </font>

Diffuse costs for the nation, concentrated benefits for the less-than-perfectly-principled. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Never underestimate the power of a portrait of Pres. Grant or Pres. Franklin. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Really.