India-based Airlines - Will Kingfisher survive?

Mallya says he won;t shut it down.
But Mallya says lots of things, such as, introducing BLR-SFO non-stop.

Mallya says he won;t shut it down.
But Mallya says lots of things, such as, introducing BLR-SFO non-stop.

The beer will survive longer than the airline. :D

Kingfisher probably wont survive, sorry

Mallya says he won;t shut it down.
But Mallya says lots of things, such as, introducing BLR-SFO non-stop.

Nope. I give it 2 months.

If they rebrand themselves Air India, the Indian Government might get confused and start pumping money into it. Otherwise I give them til May at best.

Kingfisher will survive the immediate crisis but is no longer (arguably it never was) viable as an independent carrier. The brand is tarnished too badly on the international aviation market to be successful as a private sector entity. It will most likely either merge, sell out or shut down within the short to medium term.

Let the repo's begin! ^:D^

Kingfisher will survive the immediate crisis but is no longer (arguably it never was) viable as an independent carrier. The brand is tarnished too badly on the international aviation market to be successful as a private sector entity. It will most likely either merge, sell out or shut down within the short to medium term.

Wrt to merger, who do you think might be interested?

Spanair?:p

Wrt to merger, who do you think might be interested?

Wrt to merger, who do you think might be interested?

My money is on a 3 way merger with Mexicana and Malev. All are part of oneworld and would make a truly depressing axis of failure!

Mallya says he won;t shut it down.

it will really hurt his ego if he has to shut it down so i don't see him giving up that easily....

How can any private carrier in India justify its existence in an environment where the government is pouring money into Air India - the national carrier - where there is absolutely no chance of a recovery?

And during this time, Air India keeps its market pricing artificially low, to bleed to death Kingfisher and (soon enough) other carriers too?

How can any private carrier in India justify its existence in an environment where the government is pouring money into Air India - the national carrier - where there is absolutely no chance of a recovery?

And during this time, Air India keeps its market pricing artificially low, to bleed to death Kingfisher and (soon enough) other carriers too?
If an airline showed up with competent management, a viable business plan, and money, they would be incredibly successful. 6E has all those things, and they're doing fine.

In contrast, AI, IT, and 9W all have incompetent management who don't know how to run airlines. Therefore, they are all doomed to failure. AI has the government backing it, and 9W has slightly more competence than IT, so IT is the one going down the drain.

And I disagree. There is definetely a chance for recovery for Air India. If only the government would put me in as CMD, AI would be the most profitable airline in India next quarter... Sadly, I don't have enough cash to bribe all the babus I'd need to get approval of :(

it will really hurt his ego if he has to shut it down so i don't see him giving up that easily....

It would really hurt his bank account even more if he didn't shut it down. As I understand it, all the options Mallya has considered to date involve third party money, none of his own. I think there's a reason for that- he realizes that it's just not worth putting his money where his mouth is. Once he runs out of third party options, I think he will shut down the airline. He has a big ego, but I think he's smart enough to realize when to cut his losses.

It would really hurt his bank account even more if he didn't shut it down. As I understand it, all the options Mallya has considered to date involve third party money, none of his own. I think there's a reason for that- he realizes that it's just not worth putting his money where his mouth is. Once he runs out of third party options, I think he will shut down the airline. He has a big ego, but I think he's smart enough to realize when to cut his losses.

He has barely put any money in at all. After the initial investment, he has slowly been stripping cash from the carrier, to the point where he's probably profited 100s of crores of SBI's loan money which will never get paid back.

In contrast, AI, IT, and 9W all have incompetent management who don't know how to run airlines. Therefore, they are all doomed to failure. AI has the government backing it, and 9W has slightly more competence than IT, so IT is the one going down the drain.

And I disagree. There is definetely a chance for recovery for Air India. If only the government would put me in as CMD, AI would be the most profitable airline in India next quarter... Sadly, I don't have enough cash to bribe all the babus I'd need to get approval of :(

While I share the sentiment you have on full-service carriers in India, I'd like to request a little more substantiation on the people being incompetent. Maybe just one person on each of the companies who was not qualified for his or her job please?

The beer will survive longer than the airline. :D

I am glad you brought the beer. Beer too ends up din the drain, eventually. :D

While I share the sentiment you have on full-service carriers in India, I'd like to request a little more substantiation on the people being incompetent. Maybe just one person on each of the companies who was not qualified for his or her job please?
I'm sure they all have fancy slips of paper that say that they are qualified for their jobs, but their actions show that they are incompetent. I can't name names because I honestly don't know which executive is responsible for what at those companies, but I will tell you that if they had competent execs, their revenue management, marketing, fleet planning, route planning, and pretty much everything else would be better.
The only person I won't complain about is the guy who designs meals at Air India. Pretty much everything else the airlines do could be done significantly better.

A lot of ideas that are implemented are half-baked, and the execution usually leaves quite a bit to be desired. And that's assuming that one of these geniuses came up with an idea in the first place...

It's important to note that I'm not talking about individual people. I'm talking about what the exec teams as a whole come out with. I'm sure there are some people who are very good at what they do. Sadly, there aren't enough of those types.

I'm sure they all have fancy slips of paper that say that they are qualified for their jobs, but their actions show that they are incompetent. I can't name names because I honestly don't know which executive is responsible for what at those companies, but I will tell you that if they had competent execs, their revenue management, marketing, fleet planning, route planning, and pretty much everything else would be better.
The only person I won't complain about is the guy who designs meals at Air India. Pretty much everything else the airlines do could be done significantly better.

A lot of ideas that are implemented are half-baked, and the execution usually leaves quite a bit to be desired. And that's assuming that one of these geniuses came up with an idea in the first place...

It's important to note that I'm not talking about individual people. I'm talking about what the exec teams as a whole come out with. I'm sure there are some people who are very good at what they do. Sadly, there aren't enough of those types.

I'm sorry I disagree. It is easy to brand teams as incompetent, but I'd just call it flaring if there is no proof.

The point I am trying to make is, what you are giving is an opinion, but when you say "IT, 9W, AI all have incompetent managements", it comes out as if it is a fact.

Not for a moment are we talking about the aviation environment which could cripple airlines. And as for 6E, well, I'd like to have a look at their annual reports before I fully believed that the profits were not coming from gimmickry. And perhaps 6E has that cushion till the time they don't go public.

I'm sorry I disagree. It is easy to brand teams as incompetent, but I'd just call it flaring if there is no proof.

The point I am trying to make is, what you are giving is an opinion, but when you say "IT, 9W, AI all have incompetent managements", it comes out as if it is a fact.

Not for a moment are we talking about the aviation environment which could cripple airlines. And as for 6E, well, I'd like to have a look at their annual reports before I fully believed that the profits were not coming from gimmickry. And perhaps 6E has that cushion till the time they don't go public.

Fair enough. It is certainly my opinion.

I'd love to see some numbers on 6E myself... As of now, I do find it believable that they are profitable though. They've been running a solid operation.

If only the government would put me in as CMD, AI would be the most profitable airline in India next quarter...

:rolleyes:

You lost all credibility with that statement. Do you really think that you hold the secret to the Holy Grail? Delusions methinks...

:rolleyes:

You lost all credibility with that statement. Do you really think that you hold the secret to the Holy Grail? Delusions methinks...

LOL, no I don't actually think that. It was tongue in cheek...

The only person I won't complain about is the guy who designs meals at Air India. Pretty much everything else the airlines do could be done significantly better.


Amen to that. AI & SQ are the only airlines with some good food.

Amen to that. AI & SQ are the only airlines with some good food.

TK and OS also have decent food...

TK and OS also have decent food...

Have been on OS and felt it was the standard crap. I hear good things about TK though, but I can never seem to find award space on them so don't know when I can experience it.

AFAIK AI food is catered by Taj?

AFAIK AI food is catered by Taj?

Today's meal on AI (IC) was catered by GateGourmet.

How can any private carrier in India justify its existence in an environment where the government is pouring money into Air India - the national carrier - where there is absolutely no chance of a recovery?

And during this time, Air India keeps its market pricing artificially low, to bleed to death Kingfisher and (soon enough) other carriers too?

India's airline market is RIDICULOUS. The government is keeping alive one of the worst airlines in Asia by killing two of the best in the region (Jet and KF). Why? I really don't know... Sad thing is that by "protecting" the national carrier they will only make room for foreign carriers to step in replacing failing airlines.

India's airline market is RIDICULOUS. The government is keeping alive one of the worst airlines in Asia by killing two of the best in the region (Jet and KF). Why? I really don't know... Sad thing is that by "protecting" the national carrier they will only make room for foreign carriers to step in replacing failing airlines.

I was unaware that AI is one of the worst airlines in Asia. I was also unaware that Kingfisher is one of the best in the region.

I assume you haven't actually flown any of these airlines recently if you are coming to the conclusion that IT>AI. That hasn't been true for some time now when comparing by pretty much every metric.

India's airline market is RIDICULOUS. The government is keeping alive one of the worst airlines in Asia by killing two of the best in the region (Jet and KF). Why? I really don't know... Sad thing is that by "protecting" the national carrier they will only make room for foreign carriers to step in replacing failing airlines.

Something tells me that even if AI was not supported it would not make a difference to IT. But even then govt support should be stopped.

Fair enough. It is certainly my opinion.

I'd love to see some numbers on 6E myself... As of now, I do find it believable that they are profitable though. They've been running a solid operation.

Indigo have a massive Sale and Leaseback deal with their fleet, I wonder how much of their profits are down to what is essentially clever accounting rather than a solid operation.

Time will tell whether they are actaully profitable or not because eventually there will come a time the airline will have no more assets to sale and leaseback.

Even Jet is teetering on the edge with its not so great figures released a few weeks ago.

Indigo have a massive Sale and Leaseback deal with their fleet, I wonder how much of their profits are down to what is essentially clever accounting rather than a solid operation.

Time will tell whether they are actaully profitable or not because eventually there will come a time the airline will have no more assets to sale and leaseback.

Even Jet is teetering on the edge with its not so great figures released a few weeks ago.
Sure, that's exactly why I'd like to see some concrete numbers...

However, considering that their yields (for an LCC) and loads are good, they seem to be managing to keep their costs down, and they've got themselves an excellent brand, you would think that they are profitable...

Then again, I suppose incompetence can always get in the way...

Even if AI weren't in the domestic Indian market (and/or the Indian government stopped throwing it lifelines), I'd be surprised if 9W and IT's biggest problems were to disappear in the aftermath of that.

I am glad you brought the beer. Beer to ends up din the drain, eventually. :D

Good point about how the beer Kingfisher, like the airline, will eventually end up down the drain in some form or another. :D

Even if AI weren't in the domestic Indian market (and/or the Indian government stopped throwing it lifelines), I'd be surprised if 9W and IT's biggest problems were to disappear in the aftermath of that.

I have to agree with that 100%. Jet and Kingfisher's biggest problems are themselves, not the Government not Prafull and certainly not Air India.

not Prafull

once again, he is no longer the civil aviation minister....

once again, he is no longer the civil aviation minister....

Doesn't stop people from blaming him for everything that afflicts all the airlines today.

Doesn't stop people from blaming him for everything that afflicts all the airlines today.

fair enough....

Here's my 2 pennie worth on how Kingfisher can possibly survive:


Give up on the Pan-India network coverage
Downsize and focus on Bom & Del.
Run a reliable shuttle service between Bom-Del (hourly flights throughout the day)
Bom & Del - Serve Metro routes (BLR, MAA, CCU, HYD, AMD etc etc)
Bom to focus on West India (no fancy 2,3,4 stop flights, just simple BOM-XXX turnarounds)
Del to focus on North India (again no fancy 2,3,4 stop milk runs, just simple DEL-xxx turnarounds)
Crew to be based at either BOM or DEL. Crew rosters to be optimised so everyone returns to their home base.
Keep BOM/DEL-LHR but add regional international flights from BOM & DEL. (BKK, SIN,KUL, CMB, KTM, Rangoon, HKT, HKG, PEK, DXB, AUH, DOH, KWI, MCT)
concentrate on giving good customer service and make the consumer a slave to the KingClub (have a easy to use, flexible and reliable rewards booking system)
Join Oneworld as soon as possible. Flights to BKK can feed OZ pax, Flights to HKG can feed North America (western), flights to AMM can feed middle east.
retime flights to LHR so they arrive in the morning to feed north america and europe connections.
swallow their pride and abandon south india (no money in it).
voila, give it a couple of years and Kingfisher will be in the black!


Discuss...

Here's my 2 pennie worth on how Kingfisher can possibly survive:


Give up on the Pan-India network coverage
Downsize and focus on Bom & Del.
Run a reliable shuttle service between Bom-Del (hourly flights throughout the day)
Bom & Del - Serve Metro routes (BLR, MAA, CCU, HYD, AMD etc etc)
Bom to focus on West India (no fancy 2,3,4 stop flights, just simple BOM-XXX turnarounds)
Del to focus on North India (again no fancy 2,3,4 stop milk runs, just simple DEL-xxx turnarounds)
Crew to be based at either BOM or DEL. Crew rosters to be optimised so everyone returns to their home base.
Keep BOM/DEL-LHR but add regional international flights from BOM & DEL. (BKK, SIN,KUL, CMB, KTM, Rangoon, HKT, HKG, PEK, DXB, AUH, DOH, KWI, MCT)
concentrate on giving good customer service and make the consumer a slave to the KingClub (have a easy to use, flexible and reliable rewards booking system)
Join Oneworld as soon as possible. Flights to BKK can feed OZ pax, Flights to HKG can feed North America (western), flights to AMM can feed middle east.
retime flights to LHR so they arrive in the morning to feed north america and europe connections.
swallow their pride and abandon south india (no money in it).
voila, give it a couple of years and Kingfisher will be in the black!


Discuss...

If nothing else, this one part of the plan may make the entire thing impossible.

Agree in general with most of the above, especially the pride swallowing bit.

If becoming a little feeder for the big boys is what it takes to survive, then by all means do it. No shame in it at all.

I have my doubts if the Fat One's increasingly large (did you see the pic of him at the derby) ego can take it.

More importantly though, they need to make a phone call. To 1-800-GET-CLUE.

it will really hurt his ego if he has to shut it down so i don't see him giving up that easily....

That's true, I mean, if he found giving up much easier, he would have done so already!

Here's my 2 pennie worth on how Kingfisher can possibly survive:


Give up on the Pan-India network coverage
Downsize and focus on Bom & Del.
Run a reliable shuttle service between Bom-Del (hourly flights throughout the day)
Bom & Del - Serve Metro routes (BLR, MAA, CCU, HYD, AMD etc etc)
Bom to focus on West India (no fancy 2,3,4 stop flights, just simple BOM-XXX turnarounds)
Del to focus on North India (again no fancy 2,3,4 stop milk runs, just simple DEL-xxx turnarounds)
Crew to be based at either BOM or DEL. Crew rosters to be optimised so everyone returns to their home base.
Keep BOM/DEL-LHR but add regional international flights from BOM & DEL. (BKK, SIN,KUL, CMB, KTM, Rangoon, HKT, HKG, PEK, DXB, AUH, DOH, KWI, MCT)
concentrate on giving good customer service and make the consumer a slave to the KingClub (have a easy to use, flexible and reliable rewards booking system)
Join Oneworld as soon as possible. Flights to BKK can feed OZ pax, Flights to HKG can feed North America (western), flights to AMM can feed middle east.
retime flights to LHR so they arrive in the morning to feed north america and europe connections.
swallow their pride and abandon south india (no money in it).
voila, give it a couple of years and Kingfisher will be in the black!


Discuss...



100% Agreed!

Had VJM had ever thought of introducing direct service from AMD to US via Europe, during the boom time? The new AMD Int. airport hardly handles any decent int. traffic. What a waste of investment for this new airport anyway!!

A non-stop BLR-SFO flight never WORKED and possibly never work in the future.....

An option was trying AMD-AMS/BRU-LAX or AMD-AMS/BRU-SFO...just my 2 cents

abandon south india (no money in it).
...


:rolleyes: yes forget about silicon valley. Its actually just farmland.

I think that there is money in South India, but Kingfisher is unable to capture the market. South Indians tend to be more price conscious in my experience, which makes them less likely to pay extra for IT's product. If they have to compete on price with LCCs, they can't make money.

Let IndiGo, SpiceJet, and GoAir have South India.

India's airline market is RIDICULOUS. The government is keeping alive one of the worst airlines in Asia by killing two of the best in the region (Jet and KF). Why? I really don't know... Sad thing is that by "protecting" the national carrier they will only make room for foreign carriers to step in replacing failing airlines.

Oh not that again. Surely there are things wrong with AI and the way Govt runs it, but that's not the topic here. We are talking about KingFisher.

The ways thins look, neither of the the two airlines, especially IT, needs any help in the face to the bottom.

Indigo have a massive Sale and Leaseback deal with their fleet, I wonder how much of their profits are down to what is essentially clever accounting rather than a solid operation.

Time will tell whether they are actaully profitable or not because eventually there will come a time the airline will have no more assets to sale and leaseback.

Even Jet is teetering on the edge with its not so great figures released a few weeks ago.

How does one make a deal with a fleet?
Profits are down, but you say it's clever accounting?

Doesn't stop people from blaming him for everything that afflicts all the airlines today.

Yeah, or the Govt of India and/or I for every airline's troubles. I have said it before, that KingFisher and Jet are managed by people drawn from the same socioeconomic background with similar, if not identical. The business culture is different (shall I dare say sycophantic) in India, although it's changing. NO one wants to take responsibility. They wait for the boss to order them or tell them. The boss thinks he/she can do no wrong. When teams, in which every one has a say, work together, there is a self correcting mechanism that's absent. Boss's role is to manage expertise brought to the team, not boss over them.

:rolleyes: yes forget about silicon valley. Its actually just farmland.

Actually no. It's roads choked with autos and cars and people with with exhaust fumes. :D

Here's my 2 pennie worth on how Kingfisher can possibly survive:


Give up on the Pan-India network coverage
Downsize and focus on Bom & Del.
Run a reliable shuttle service between Bom-Del (hourly flights throughout the day)
Bom & Del - Serve Metro routes (BLR, MAA, CCU, HYD, AMD etc etc)
Bom to focus on West India (no fancy 2,3,4 stop flights, just simple BOM-XXX turnarounds)
Del to focus on North India (again no fancy 2,3,4 stop milk runs, just simple DEL-xxx turnarounds)
Crew to be based at either BOM or DEL. Crew rosters to be optimised so everyone returns to their home base.
Keep BOM/DEL-LHR but add regional international flights from BOM & DEL. (BKK, SIN,KUL, CMB, KTM, Rangoon, HKT, HKG, PEK, DXB, AUH, DOH, KWI, MCT)
concentrate on giving good customer service and make the consumer a slave to the KingClub (have a easy to use, flexible and reliable rewards booking system)
Join Oneworld as soon as possible. Flights to BKK can feed OZ pax, Flights to HKG can feed North America (western), flights to AMM can feed middle east.
retime flights to LHR so they arrive in the morning to feed north america and europe connections.
swallow their pride and abandon south india (no money in it).
voila, give it a couple of years and Kingfisher will be in the black!


Discuss...

I agree with everything that you have said, except for swallow their pride, because having pride is what has been keeping them alive 2011-2012. Also, I don't think that South India should be abandoned, but like N. India should focus on major routes. (between MAA, BLR, HYD, COK, TRV, CCJ, IXE, TRZ, VTZ and CJB). They should also keep existing international routes from BLR and MAA and when they are in a better position, try to tap into the MAA-SE Asia or Gulf market.

I don't think oneWorld is very keen about having a less than solvent airline joining the alliance until longterm financing and operation is secured. They just lost Malev and no airline wants to deal with unhappy passengers whose cupons have been voided or whose codeshare connections are blown up.

http://whtc.com/news/articles/2012/feb/26/analysis-kingfishers-nosedive-poses-dilemma-for-india/

not good

http://whtc.com/news/articles/2012/feb/26/analysis-kingfishers-nosedive-poses-dilemma-for-india/

not good

They should let foreign companies or airlines by stakes in Indian carriers.

So apparently this is the letter the Fat One sent out to all the hapless employees:

Dear Colleagues

I want to take this opportunity to update you on our current situation amidst all the media frenzy that is taking place.
The Indian media and the "paid" media that even the Prime Minister referred to are unscrupulous and they will do whatever it takes, part fact or fiction, part true or untrue to achieve their sensationalist objectives.

I have organised funding so that we can pay your seriously overdue salaries which is a source of great personal sorrow for me.
We are currently handicapped as our bank accounts are frozen by the tax authorities. I have been working tirelessly to urgently resolve this issue through negotiation and I hope that these efforts will be successful early next week. We fully intend to pay our tax dues as much as we commit to paying your salaries.

Government policies can make or break any Industry. So far it has been downhill for Civil Aviation except for one Airline that defies the odds and claims to be profitable however unlikely that may be.

Finally, there seems to be light at the end of a long dark tunnel. Government has issued a notification allowing direct import of Aviation fuel which promises to save us about 15 percent of our current fuel costs.

I am hoping that the next positive move would be the formal notification permitting Foreign Airlines to invest upto 49 percent of the equity in Indian carriers. This has already been widely announced by the Minister of Civil Aviation and according to reports, has been decided upon at a Empowered Group of Ministers meeting.
Recently, last week, the promoters of our airline, The UB Group and its associates acting in concert, converted its loans for an additional 5 percent equity in Kingfisher Airlines. This is the maximum permitted under law in any one financial year but clearly demonstrates the faith that I have in all of you and in our Company.

I have been overwhelmed and emotionally moved by all the widespread expressions of support and appreciation for our Company despite the turbulence we are flying through. Despite media reports, we have many many supporters, well wishers and loyal guests. And all these words of appreciation are dedicated to you.
Whilst many may have left our family and many may be in the process of leaving, our family may have become smaller for now. But our family will grow with those who have the pride in their hearts of having stood by our Company through ups and downs, sometimes with great personal sacrifice. That is the true test of loyalty dedication and commitment which I am going to reward.

Please stay committed to our common cause and for good reason to smile happily when this turbulence is over.
We were the biggest and best. We may not be the biggest now but we remain simply the best for our guests and our valued King Club members.

I hope to have some good news for you shortly.
Thank you for your patience and understanding.

Warm Regards
Vijay Mallya
Member of Parliament
Chairman and Managing Director
KINGFISHER AIRLINES LIMITED


Such an awful, awful letter. Petty and vindictive and full of blame for everyone but himself and his managers.

Clearly the great personal sorrow is neither great enough nor personal enough to front some money so that people can feed their families. Rather, it is false enough that making a show of sailing on yachts and making an obscene spectacle of pulling out all the bling at Mahalaxmi continue unabated.

And no, you do not sign off as "Member of Parliament" when you're writing a "be strong" letter to your employees, who you claim are your family.

What a pompous, obnoxious arse.

What a pompous, obnoxious arse.

^^^

The reason why all three majors are in trouble is because the management teams are responsible to parties whose narrow personal interests and ego conflict with what needs to be done. Instead of being responsible to shareholders, the teams are beholden to icons, or political bosses. Management teams' personal interests also conflict with their task. Do you do what's right and offend your boss or save your job? The psychophantic mentality has not only been yet been overcome since the end of raj, it has probably grown.
When a business grows in revenue and operations, it grows in complexity also. You can't run it as your personal business. You need to cede control to your management team. As an owner, it's your responsibility to pick a management team that can fulfill the vision you have for your business, be realistic about the b=vision, and let the team do it's job.
In this three ring circus in Indian aviation, an airline is not likely to survive without deep pockets, which only AI has access to.

I cannot understand how/why KF, the politicians, and the general public seem to think that 49% foreign ownership will solve the Indian airlines financial problems.

Who in their right mind would want to fund a deficit (aside from the government and government owned banks) ?

I can't imagine any legitimate foreign entity would want to inject equity into a company like this. Wouldn't it just be easier for a foreign airline to start from scratch with a new/better Indian partner ?

Things are only going to get worse with $120+ oil.

I cannot understand how/why KF, the politicians, and the general public seem to think that 49% foreign ownership will solve the Indian airlines financial problems.

Who in their right mind would want to fund a deficit (aside from the government and government owned banks) ?

I can't imagine any legitimate foreign entity would want to inject equity into a company like this. Wouldn't it just be easier for a foreign airline to start from scratch with a new/better Indian partner ?

Things are only going to get worse with $120+ oil.

The Indian airline industry is doomed UNTIL the government keeps Air India afloat... Easy...

The Indian airline industry is doomed UNTIL the government keeps Air India afloat... Easy...

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree.

It's not like AI's sudden disappearance tomorrow will turn Jet and Kingfisher into Cathay Pacific (qualitatively or financially).

That's because the ever increasing list of afflictions have almost nothing to do with AI or Prafull or the Ministry or Government. They're all largely self-created.

I have been clamouring for euthanising Air India for a while now. But AI's death is something us taxpayers and the exchequer need. Jet and Kingfisher need a clue, without which, within a few weeks of AI's death, they will be back to where they are now: one schizophrenic and the other a spoilt fat child's toy train.

I cannot understand how/why KF, the politicians, and the general public seem to think that 49% foreign ownership will solve the Indian airlines financial problems.

Who in their right mind would want to fund a deficit (aside from the government and government owned banks) ?

I can't imagine any legitimate foreign entity would want to inject equity into a company like this. Wouldn't it just be easier for a foreign airline to start from scratch with a new/better Indian partner ?

Things are only going to get worse with $120+ oil.
Yes. What was a solution in the past is not a necessarily a solution now.
Why would a foreign airline take over a headache, unless it's a fire sale.
Indian employees/managers are less likely to engage in nepotism if foreign ownership equity comes with a hawk-eye. They could possibly bring some rational decision making process.

The Indian airline industry is doomed UNTIL the government keeps Air India afloat... Easy...

:confused: Did you mean "as long as AI is afloat"?
I disagree. While I do not claim to be clairvoyant, AI's demise is more likely to bring disaster to Indian aviation than solve its problems. Who will pay the fees to DLIA if AI is gone? DLIA will be a ghost of an airport--भूऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽत बंगला @:-)

Yes. What was a solution in the past is not a necessarily a solution now.


I don't think it was a solution in the past either.

There was never a lack of financing for Jet or KF. That is in fact how they both grew.

KF never made a profit to begin with. I don't know how Mallya can blame anyone but himself.

I don't think it was a solution in the past either.

There was never a lack of financing for Jet or KF. That is in fact how they both grew.

KF never made a profit to begin with. I don't know how Mallya can blame anyone but himself.

Financing is only one input, rational management is another. I can't see anyone putting in equity without expecting competent management. It was too much financing without adequate control and competent management that brought them down.
In the current situation none of the three majors is attractive to foreign investors.
I am talking about all three majors, not just IT and 9W.

How can any private carrier in India justify its existence in an environment where the government is pouring money into Air India - the national carrier - where there is absolutely no chance of a recovery?

And during this time, Air India keeps its market pricing artificially low, to bleed to death Kingfisher and (soon enough) other carriers too?
I think also that GoI sets fare prices for certain routes, no? I remember seeing a list of fares on the IT site ("IT.fail"?) based on advance purchase requirements for the routes they fly, month, etc. It sounded like they were following some GoI regulations.

And I disagree. There is definetely a chance for recovery for Air India. If only the government would put me in as CMD, AI would be the most profitable airline in India next quarter... Sadly, I don't have enough cash to bribe all the babus I'd need to get approval of :(
Yeah, unfortunately :p

I remember when they were accepting applications for COO during Arvind Jadhav's turn at the helm... it seemed like only minimal experience was required to apply:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/12529733-post8.html
(link to job posting no longer working)

:rolleyes:

You lost all credibility with that statement. Do you really think that you hold the secret to the Holy Grail? Delusions methinks...
I don't know that there IS a secret. There is plenty that could be fixed about AI, probably among the most important as a starting point is the 'corporate' culture.

Interesting analysis of the Indian airline industry in the WSJ

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203986604577252760544506578.html

Interesting analysis of the Indian airline industry in the WSJ

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203986604577252760544506578.html

You can read that article here as well (http://www.airlinenewsindia.com/2012/02/plight-of-kingfisher-king.html#more)


I wasn't impressed. It was the usual crap - blame the government, blame Air India, blame basically everyone but Kingfisher itself. :td::td::td:

However, the analysis of why the GoI is working so hard to try to save Kingfisher was kind of accurate.

However, the analysis of why the GoI is working so hard to try to save Kingfisher was kind of accurate.
I think everyone agrees why the government thinks they have to bail out IT (because SBI lent huge sums of money to IT which it is not in a position to repay). The bigger issue is whether rolling over these claims (effectively lending more money now) will enable Kingfisher to successfully come out of its problem. The worry is that Mallya doesn't know how to run an airline and bailing him out now is simply throwing good money after bad.

I think everyone agrees why the government thinks they have to bail out IT (because SBI lent huge sums of money to IT which it is not in a position to repay). The bigger issue is whether rolling over these claims (effectively lending more money now) will enable Kingfisher to successfully come out of its problem. The worry is that Mallya doesn't know how to run an airline and bailing him out now is simply throwing good money after bad.

Of course it's throwing good money after bad. And it looks like the government is happy to dump money into it anyway. India had to cut its defense budget because our priorities are to bail out millionaires' airlines over defending our country. And that is a sad thing.

This quote from the article in particular annoyed me:
Analysts tracking Kingfisher say that if a private equity player comes in, it will be through a structured deal. “In public eye it will be a private equity deal but in all likelihood it is going to be a structured deal with a fixed IRR (internal rate of return) “ said an equity analyst not wanting to be identified.

In English: The government will guarantee a minimum rate of return for potential investors, meaning that if IT goes bust, the gov't is still stuck with the bill.

So not only is the government bailing out Kingfisher, they aren't getting anything out of it either - a private investor gets to reap the theoretical profits. Count me an unhappy camper. :td::td::td:

Kingfisher Airlines misses deadline, more accounts frozen.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Kingfisher-Airlines-misses-deadline-more-accounts-frozen/articleshow/12120566.cms


Ajit Singh warns Kingfisher Airlines of licence suspension

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Ajit-Singh-warns-Kingfisher-Airlines-of-licence-suspension/articleshow/12119039.cms

Ajit Singh warns Kingfisher Airlines of licence suspension

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Ajit-Singh-warns-Kingfisher-Airlines-of-licence-suspension/articleshow/12119039.cms

When the suspension actually happens, then let me know. Until then, it's all talk.

When the suspension actually happens, then let me know. Until then, it's all talk.

i agree....

Kingfisher Airlines misses deadline, more accounts frozen.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Kingfisher-Airlines-misses-deadline-more-accounts-frozen/articleshow/12120566.cms


Ajit Singh warns Kingfisher Airlines of licence suspension

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Ajit-Singh-warns-Kingfisher-Airlines-of-licence-suspension/articleshow/12119039.cms

also, its really hard to take anything the toi says seriously....

also, its really hard to take anything the toi says seriously....

Anyone else getting bored of the media's coverage of Kingfishers so called demise......wake me up when it actually happens!

Anyone else getting bored of the media's coverage of Kingfishers so called demise......wake me up when it actually happens!

While I am getting bored of the media coverage, there is nothing "so called" about Kingfisher's demise.

While I am getting bored of the media coverage, there is nothing "so called" about Kingfisher's demise.

your right, it was badly phased, they are definitely in a struggle

the only way KF can survive is if VJM puts in some equity which is then matched by some of the lenders and completely lets go of his stake in management.

With AI struggling, KF gone and Jet posting losses, some serious rethink on regulations by the government unless they want the entire sector to burn while they fiddle.

somehow though, i dont see KF surviving, in the staring contest of sorts thats going on, neither party seems to want to blink. Unless VJM can pull some tricks with the government, he will leave it too late and the banks will be left holding the bag.

KF will end up the Lehmann Brothers of aviation..

the only way KF can survive is if VJM puts in some equity which is then matched by some of the lenders and completely lets go of his stake in management.
If Mallya puts in more $$, Kingfisher will manage to hobble along for another year or 2 maybe. Their business in its current form is not sustainable (evidenced by the fact that they have never made a profit in history). Short of a complete restructuring of management and business model (read: impossible as long as Mallya sticks around), Kingfisher will just keep failing over and over again.

With AI struggling, KF gone and Jet posting losses, some serious rethink on regulations by the government unless they want the entire sector to burn while they fiddle.
Nah, all the government needs to do is continue fiddling and let Kingfisher crash. The increase in load factors and yields for the rest of the airlines should bring the sector much closer to profitability.

somehow though, i dont see KF surviving, in the staring contest of sorts thats going on, neither party seems to want to blink. Unless VJM can pull some tricks with the government, he will leave it too late and the banks will be left holding the bag. I hope you're right

KF will end up the Lehmann Brothers of aviation..
Nonsense. There are virtually no comparisons that can be drawn at all.

:confused: Did you mean "as long as AI is afloat"?
I disagree. While I do not claim to be clairvoyant, AI's demise is more likely to bring disaster to Indian aviation than solve its problems. Who will pay the fees to DLIA if AI is gone? DLIA will be a ghost of an airport--भूऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽत बंगला @:-)

that's what I meant, sorry :)

that's what I meant, sorry :)

It's not that AI is paying those fees... it's Indian taxpayers that are paying those fees through AI. Hence the government could just subsidize airports as a public service.

It's not that AI is paying those fees... it's Indian taxpayers that are paying those fees through AI. Hence the government could just subsidize airports as a public service.

1) The Indian government already subsidizes airports through the AAI.
2) The Indian taxpayers are not exactly paying those fees. The subsidies that Air India get largely are covering legacy costs such as the bloated payroll they deal with. If AI could shed the legacy costs, they actually would have profitability in line with competition. However, trying to shed those costs would be political suicide for everyone involved, which is why AI continues losing tons of money on its bloated payroll.

भूऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽत बंगला @:-)

On an unrelated note, I forgot to ask this. What are the ऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽ for? Is it prolonging the vowel?

On an unrelated note, I forgot to ask this. What are the ऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽ for? Is it prolonging the vowel?

Yes, and presumably alludes to a Bollywood song in which the word was sung that way.

Yes, and presumably alludes to a Bollywood song in which the word was sung that way.

Probably an oldie then - I don't recall hearing any Bollywood song recently about haunted houses...

Probably an oldie then - I don't recall hearing any Bollywood song recently about haunted houses...

Yes "very oldie", to the extent that details are very fuzzy in my mind. There was a Bhoot Bangla movie too, but I don't remember if the song was in the namesake movie (likely) or a different one (possible).

If IT is able to find an investor who will bring in money and place a few of its own nominees on the board to run it, it would survive.There are some cash rich airlines which might be interested.

On an unrelated note, I forgot to ask this. What are the ऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽ for? Is it prolonging the vowel?

I speak Hindi but can't read Devanagiri, what does it say?

I speak Hindi but can't read...

More commonly known as "illiterate"? :D [Please take it in good humor. Being able to speak/understand but not to read/write is definition of illiterate. For example, I am "illiterate" in Urdu world. OTOH, I can read Russian script quite well, but barely know the language; don't know what is the right word for that condition! ]

what does it say?

भूत बंगला = Bhoot Bangla = Ghost house, haunted house
"ऽ" prolongs the previous vowel, so
भूऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽत बंगला = Bhooooooooot Bangla.

More commonly known as "illiterate"? :D



भूत बंगला = Bhoot Bangla = Ghost house, haunted house
"ऽ" prolongs the previous vowel, so
भूऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽऽत बंगला = Bhooooooooot Bangla.

I have used "ऽ" it in the sense you noted, although it's not technically correct. The "ऽ" strilctly speaking, stanbds for the vowel "a", as in about.

I have used "ऽ" it in the sense you noted, although it's not technically correct. The "ऽ" strilctly speaking, stanbds for the vowel "a", as in about.
Yeah, that's why I was confused. I vaguely remembered some Hindi class that I took when i was little which said that avagraha can only be used to elongate "ah"....

More commonly known as "illiterate"? :D


Erm, no... More commonly known as Tamilian. (and/or NRI I suppose)...

I have used "ऽ" it in the sense you noted, although it's not technically correct. The "ऽ" strilctly speaking, stands for the vowel "a", as in about.

Yeah, that's why I was confused. I vaguely remembered some Hindi class that I took when i was little which said that avagraha can only be used to elongate "ah"....

That is true of Sanskrit. However, the script Devnagari has gone on to live beyond that, absorbing several modifications, dropping some usage, modifying others, and picking up new ones as well. Anyway, in modern "daughter" languages, the avagraha is also used for prolonging vowel sounds. (I am well aware of the politics of "Sanskritized" Hindi, "Persianized" Hindi, etc., but there is no need to get into that. In the end, language is convention and if enough people follow a convention, it will acquire legitimacy at least as a niche.)

That is true of Sanskrit. However, the script Devnagari has gone on to live beyond that, absorbing several modifications, dropping some usage, modifying others, and picking up new ones as well. Anyway, in modern "daughter" languages, the avagraha is also used for prolonging vowel sounds. (I am well aware of the politics of "Sanskritized" Hindi, "Persianized" Hindi, etc., but there is no need to get into that. In the end, language is convention and if enough people follow a convention, it will acquire legitimacy at least as a niche.)

Why bring Sanskritised Hindi or Persianised Hindi into it? Is it preemptive strike? No one said anything about Sanskrit or Persian here.
Literally, avagrah means feeling or apprehension. It's a technical term. Avagrah denotes the short vowel "a" that is not expressed but is implicit. No more, no less. Long vowels that take twice as long to articulate, is where grammar stops. Longer vowels, such as those needed in cock-a-doodle-do belong in music.
Avagrah is used when sandhi does not take place. Rules of sandhi (elision) indicate "a" + "a"= aa. By that rule, But "ऽ" +"ऽ" would be "aa". Neither it is so, nor is "aa" ever replaced by "ऽऽ".
People may use it, just as I did. But that is not the meaning of avagrah.

Erm, no... More commonly known as Tamilian. (and/or NRI I suppose)...

Well, I'm an Urdu Speaking Madrasi PIO, so I partially tick the Tamilian box and tick the NRI box. I can read Urdu though.
Just trying to steer this back into the airline topic, do all of the airlines of India have Hindi website facility?

Just trying to steer this back into the airline topic, do all of the airlines of India have Hindi website facility?
I don't think any of the airlines of India have a Hindi website.

Trying to steer this conversation back into the actual topic of this thread, would Kingfisher have a better chance of surviving if it had a Hindi website? :)

Why bring Sanskritised Hindi or Persianised Hindi into it? Is it preemptive strike? No one said anything about Sanskrit or Persian here. Literally, avagrah means feeling or apprehension. It's a technical term. Avagrah denotes the short vowel "a" that is not expressed but is implicit. No more, no less. Long vowels that take twice as long to articulate, is where grammar stops. Longer vowels, such as those needed in cock-a-doodle-do belong in music. Avagrah is used when sandhi does not take place. Rules of sandhi (elision) indicate "a" + "a"= aa. By that rule, But "ऽ" +"ऽ" would be "aa". Neither it is so, nor is "aa" ever replaced by "ऽऽ". People may use it, just as I did. But that is not the meaning of avagrah.

I am sorry that you took it as any kind of "strike". My goal was to state the situation objectively, pointing out two common ideological pitfalls to be avoided. Anyway, let me try one more time.

The rule you did and still continue to cite is from Sanskrit. The question was about Hindi which is a related but different language, with differences in script, punctuation marks, pronunciation, and grammar. There is really nothing more to say than the avagrah usage is not identical in the two languages. Here is from Wikipedia entry on Devnagari (emphasis mine):

"The avagraha ऽ ... is a Sanskrit punctuation mark for the elision of a vowel in sandhi: एकोऽयम् ekoyam (< ekas + ayam) "this one". An original long vowel...is sometimes marked with a double avagraha: सदाऽऽत्मा sadātmā (< sadā + ātmā)...In Hindi, [17] states that its 'main function is to show that a vowel is sustained in a cry or a shout': आईऽऽऽ!..."

Different languages do different things. That's why they are different. :)

Now, we all know that there are ideological camps which try to promote either Sanskrit or Persian rules and structures in Hindi. I have no problem with people having their own vision of the language; they can all be legitimate efforts. I just wanted to point out that the living on-the-ground language has its own reality.

IOW, what you are saying is mostly right, but it applies to a different language, namely Sanskrit.

Yaatri - you never answered the other question - which song?

I don't think any of the airlines of India have a Hindi website.

Odd considering that on some (or most) aircraft 'Air India' is written in Hindi on the body and in English on the tailfin (but the other way round on others).

Language alone won't save this airline, at least not at this point.

Language alone won't save this airline, at least not at this point.

Nothing will save this airline at this point...

Nothing will save this airline at this point...

never say never....

Nothing will save this airline at this point...

never say never....

Ah yes. Nothing except for the plan :p:p:p:p

In all seriousness, there isn't much that can save this airline... If they get a gov't bailout, they'll operate for a few more months until that money runs out, and back to square one. Short of a major restructuring, this airline isn't going to turn around. And Mr. VJM's ego is blocking that path...

never say never....

The JB song?

The JB song?

:eek: You listen to JB?

Short of a major restructuring, this airline isn't going to turn around. And Mr. VJM's ego is blocking that path...

How is Mallya's ego blocking that path? I don't think his ego is blocking the path. Rather, I think it's the business sense of potential investors that's preventing them from coming in.

If someone were to step up to the plate, assume all of IT's debt, take control and run the company efficiently, I bet Mallya would be all for it.

How is Mallya's ego blocking that path? I don't think his ego is blocking the path. Rather, I think it's the business sense of potential investors that's preventing them from coming in.

If someone were to step up to the plate, assume all of IT's debt, take control and run the company efficiently, I bet Mallya would be all for it.

Mallya's ego won't let IT be anything short of a "5 star carrier" - in India, the market for a 5 star carrier is too small for it to be a viable business.

The only way to turn IT around would be to worry less about the luxuries and more about bringing their costs in line with competition (9W). That means that their product would have to be turned into a standard FSC offering, not the over the top product they attempt to provide...

Mallya's ego won't let IT be anything short of a "5 star carrier" - in India, the market for a 5 star carrier is too small for it to be a viable business.

I've heard this argument before, but I just don't buy it. I think that at the end of the day, Mallya is a businessman and wants to maximize his profits. I think that he truly believes in a market for a 5 star airline in India. He probably thinks of himself as a visionary and that supply will create its own demand.

PS: I have never had any interaction of any sort with VJM. So what I wrote above is purely speculation about his mindset.

I've heard this argument before, but I just don't buy it. I think that at the end of the day, Mallya is a businessman and wants to maximize his profits. I think that he truly believes in a market for a 5 star airline in India.
Mallya didn't start an airline to make profit. He started the airline as a vanity project. He probably thinks of himself as a visionary and that supply will create its own demand. Probably, I've always thought that he's an idiot...

Probably, I've always thought that he's an idiot...

^
Mismanagement is killing the airline.

Poor journalism means that I can't tell exactly what happened, but looks like BA is ready to drop IT too:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/industry-and-economy/logistics/article2991851.ece?homepage=true&ref=wl_home

Does this mean that the interline agreement is gone too, or just the codeshares?

Meanwhile VJM pours money into Force:

http://m.timesofindia.com/PDATOI/articleshow/12248503.cms

He sure is concerned about IT employees salaries.

Poor journalism means that I can't tell exactly what happened, but looks like BA is ready to drop IT too:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/industry-and-economy/logistics/article2991851.ece?homepage=true&ref=wl_home

Does this mean that the interline agreement is gone too, or just the codeshares?

I don't see any codeshares on the GDS. Hell, I don't see ANYTHING on GDS!

Dropping LHR next month.
Doing this seems to be indication to me that IT is dead in the water; or in the liquor in this case...
PVDtoDEL was right. Few more months.

Dropping LHR next month.
Doing this seems to be indication to me that IT is dead in the water; or in the liquor in this case...
PVDtoDEL was right. Few more months.

Lol

Dropping LHR next month.

I hear from a somewhat reliable source (unconfirmed officially though) that LHR is gone effective IMMEDIATELY. One of their aircraft was impounded/repossessed tonight at Heathrow and all Kingfisher services from the UK stand cancelled effective tonight.

That's amazing. The end might be sooner than I thought!

Why can't he just close it down now? Just prolonging the agony.

Why can't he just close it down now? Just prolonging the agony.

Although I did like IT, I completely agree. When you're dropping your flagship route, it'as a sign that you're going to die. Its almost like BA dropping LHR-JFK.

http://www.flykingfisher.com/media-center/press-releases/statement-from-kingfisher-airlines.aspx

Their language also seems to have changed from aggressive and hopelessly positive to resigned to the inevitable.

It is a real shame that KF management simply does not want to admit that their doomed airline has already gone to the grave.....

9W will eventually follow them...

It is a real shame that KF management simply does not want to admit that their doomed airline has already gone to the grave.....

9W will eventually follow them...

They are desperately trying to stay afloat until April 9th so I can win the contest in the other thread. :D

They are desperately trying to stay afloat until April 9th so I can win the contest in the other thread. :D

If 52K King miles mean anything by then....

Mallya didn't start an airline to make profit. He started the airline as a vanity project.

... started the airline as a vanity project he believed could make a profit in what he thought would be a fast-growing economy.

... started the airline as a vanity project he believed could make a profit in what he thought would be a fast-growing economy.

Without a coherent plan (unless one counts "I'll take five of each Noel" to be a plan) and without any professionals who knew the first thing about the business?

9W will eventually follow them...

care to follow up on this ridiculous statement????

care to follow up on this ridiculous statement????

+1

While saying that 9W is "well run" would be generous, they are in the best position in India out of the FSCs. Kingfisher going under should increase their loads and yields to bring them to profitability despite the best efforts of their execs.

care to follow up on this ridiculous statement????

Maybe not just yet but there have been hints that Jet Airways will be next to hit a serious rough patch. All of negative news has been hidden due to Kingfisher fiasco but just to remind you:

- Staff are regularly receiving pay late.
- Tax accounts frozen due to no payments which are then unfrozen after an ad hoc payment. Not a great way to do business even if it is India.
- Bloated staff costs - cabin crew fired / then rehired. Foreign pilots getting paid a kings ransome (still hiring B737 expats).
- High tax costs.
- continuing to prop up the balance sheet with sale and leasebacks (eventually they will run out of assets).
- 3 brands within an airline group (but all with the same costs and cannabalising each others yields).
- Recent nonsense with IATA account.

Maybe not just yet but there have been hints that Jet Airways will be next to hit a serious rough patch. All of negative news has been hidden due to Kingfisher fiasco but just to remind you:

- Staff are regularly receiving pay late.
- Tax accounts frozen due to no payments which are then unfrozen after an ad hoc payment. Not a great way to do business even if it is India.
- Bloated staff costs - cabin crew fired / then rehired. Foreign pilots getting paid a kings ransome (still hiring B737 expats).
- High tax costs.
- continuing to prop up the balance sheet with sale and leasebacks (eventually they will run out of assets).
- 3 brands within an airline group (but all with the same costs and cannabalising each others yields).
- Recent nonsense with IATA account.

i agree with all of that....but they have been around for a while & know how to survive....also, if kingfisher does go down then jet will be the one who will benefit most....

I don't foresee Jet following Kingfisher into oblivion. But it seems almost certain they will follow Kingfisher into some very heavy turbulence indeed. The difference likely will be one was unable to survive it, the other will, at worst, manage to hang on.

Kingfisher seems to be adept at making the worst of a bad situation. Jet will probably stop at being unable to make good out of a bad situation.

Of course, both have and will continue to blame everyone from Prafull to Sophia Loren for their self-created woes.

I don't foresee Jet following Kingfisher into oblivion. But it seems almost certain they will follow Kingfisher into some very heavy turbulence indeed. The difference likely will be one was unable to survive it, the other will, at worst, manage to hang on.

Kingfisher seems to be adept at making the worst of a bad situation. Jet will probably stop at being unable to make good out of a bad situation.

Of course, both have and will continue to blame everyone from Prafull to Sophia Loren for their self-created woes.

I think Jet will be able to survive, as some have already mentioned, because IT goes down. Jet will pick up at least some of IT's passengers, particularly the business passengers.

I am sorry that you took it as any kind of "strike". My goal was to state the situation objectively, pointing out two common ideological pitfalls to be avoided. Anyway, let me try one more time.
Never mind. There was no place for Sanskritised or persianiswed here. It was way off topic for an off topic discussion.
The rule you did and still continue to cite is from Sanskrit. The question was about Hindi which is a related but different language, with differences in script, punctuation marks, pronunciation, and grammar. There is really nothing more to say than the avagrah usage is not identical in the two languages. Here is from Wikipedia entry on Devnagari (emphasis mine):
Oh Wikipedia, the most authentic source that overcomes all avenues of intellectual discourse. :D

"The avagraha ऽ ... is a Sanskrit punctuation mark for the elision of a vowel in sandhi: एकोऽयम् ekoyam (< ekas + ayam) "this one". An original long vowel...is sometimes marked with a double avagraha: सदाऽऽत्मा sadātmā (< sadā + ātmā)...In Hindi, [17] states that its 'main function is to show that a vowel is sustained in a cry or a shout': आईऽऽऽ!..."

Different languages do different things. That's why they are different. :)

Now, we all know that there are ideological camps which try to promote either Sanskrit or Persian rules and structures in Hindi. I have no problem with people having their own vision of the language; they can all be legitimate efforts. I just wanted to point out that the living on-the-ground language has its own reality.

IOW, what you are saying is mostly right, but it applies to a different language, namely Sanskrit.
The example of sandhi you gave is all botched up. Avagraha does not represent a लुप्त स्वर. सदात्मा can never be written सदाऽऽत्मा. The vowel you are trying to represent by two avagrah, is nit there anymore.
Avagrah represents a vowel, that has not been lost in sandhi.

Neither भूऽऽऽऽऽऽऽत nor bhoooooot is correct by any grammatical convention. These are dramatisations, not grammatical constructs.
Please stop imposing Wikipedia based pseudo facts, pertaining an issue that's off topic on all of us. We can discuss this privately if you wish.

Yaatri - you never answered the other question - which song?

Sorry, I have no idea. I just remember the phrase.

... started the airline as a vanity project he believed could make a profit in what he thought would be a fast-growing economy.

Nail, meet hammer. Which is why we had Jet Airways and a host of other airlines. Some survived and some did not.
VM/IT are to airlini industry what South Asians are to liquor store, Seven-Eleven, gas stations and IT industry. Getting into a business where they feel there is easy money to be made.

It is a real shame that KF management simply does not want to admit that their doomed airline has already gone to the grave.....

9W will eventually follow them...

I am not ready to ask yet, "Will Jet Airways survive?" When I am, I will raise the question here. :cool:

Maybe not just yet but there have been hints that Jet Airways will be next to hit a serious rough patch. All of negative news has been hidden due to Kingfisher fiasco but just to remind you:

- Staff are regularly receiving pay late.
- Tax accounts frozen due to no payments which are then unfrozen after an ad hoc payment. Not a great way to do business even if it is India.
- Bloated staff costs - cabin crew fired / then rehired. Foreign pilots getting paid a kings ransome (still hiring B737 expats).
- High tax costs.
- continuing to prop up the balance sheet with sale and leasebacks (eventually they will run out of assets).
- 3 brands within an airline group (but all with the same costs and cannabalising each others yields).
- Recent nonsense with IATA account.

I also first thought that the post about 9w was nonsense but this is alarming. Why are they still hiring foreign pilots when they can easily get IT pilots?

VJM is promising a road map:

http://m.timesofindia.com/PDATOI/articleshow/12279906.cms

Why does he need to do this?:rolleyes:

Anyone going to place bets on date of end of operations? I can't, but any of you?

The example of sandhi you gave is all botched up.

The example is from "Writing Systems of the Indo-Aryan Languages" by Richard Salomon, in The Indo-Aryan Languages, George Cardona and Dhanesh Jain, Routledge, 2003, ISBN 9780415772945.

Neither भूऽऽऽऽऽऽऽत nor bhoooooot is correct by any grammatical convention. These are dramatisations, not grammatical constructs.


It is script, not grammar. In fact it is a good illustration from a phonetic script (like Devnagari). The script does not care if the speaker intended drama, poetry, or business; if he succeeded or failed; if he was right or wrong; if he knew his grammar or not. :) It just represents a spoken sound. Nothing more, nothing less.

You were right the first time when you used the script intuitively (post 59). As expected from attempted intellectualization, it has been steady downhill ever since. Yes, it is all OT here and we should drop it. "We" includes you too. :)

I am not ready to ask yet, "Will Jet Airways survive?" When I am, I will raise the question here. :cool:

Is there any company that can live forever? :D Some companies seem to just drop out of the scene faster than others.

Since IT are leaving LHR, VS are relaunching their BOM route and BA will probably follow soon with an increase in capacity.
New route - Daily flight to Bombay, beginning October (on VS forum) (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/virgin-atlantic-flying-club/1325072-new-route-daily-flight-mumbai-beginning-october.html)

The example is from "Writing Systems of the Indo-Aryan Languages" by Richard Salomon, in The Indo-Aryan Languages, George Cardona and Dhanesh Jain, Routledge, 2003, ISBN 9780415772945.
Only one who is not aware of proper usage will take cue from a person, with non-native familiarity of the language. Every speaker or scholar of Sanskrit, including those I know personally and I stand by सदात्मा can never be written सदाऽऽत्मा. So let's not argue about this.

It is script, not grammar. In fact it is a good illustration from a phonetic script (like Devnagari). The script does not care if the speaker intended drama, poetry, or business; if he succeeded or failed; if he was right or wrong; if he knew his grammar or not. :) It just represents a spoken sound. Nothing more, nothing less.
What would that script be? I am well aware what script is. There is script and then there is script that is not.

You were right the first time when you used the script intuitively (post 59). As expected from attempted intellectualization, it has been steady downhill ever since. Yes, it is all OT here and we should drop it. "We" includes you too. :)
I was right for those who do not understand the relationship between grammar, language, and script. I had taken liberties with avagrah. At best, it's an artifact that could be tolerated as a usage by those with less than perfect knowledge of sandhi and devanagari.

Jet will pick up at least some of IT's passengers, particularly the business passengers.

They already have. They've increased all non advance purchase fares on domestic routes. A MAA-BOM cheapest fare is now 8.5k inr oneway, almost eqv to their regional international fares (competitive routes vs. monopolistic ones). Also, they were due to send 10-12 aircraft back for reconfiguration from 16 seat Premiere to 8 seaters, and just decided to hold back due to increased deman in biz class travel. Fact is anyone paying those fares for domestic flights (even at 22k a coupon), either is loaded or its a company perk. With AI domestic premium travel was often a case of the sahibs and babus being upgraded (hence the airport upgrade schemes, discounted miles for upgrade within 24 hours of flight dep etc... ways to generate revenue from the premium cabins).
So while IT's Kingfisher First was a very good product once upon a time and made a dent on Jet's key routes like MAA-DEL vv, BOM-DEL vv, BOM-BLR vv which had the max premium travel - everyone is now back to flying Jet.

Monopoly isn't good, and Jet definitely doesn't have the maturity to sustain product in a monopolistic situation... but I think they will survive this. IT being in the state it is in definitely helps the situation.

They already have. They've increased all non advance purchase fares on domestic routes. A MAA-BOM cheapest fare is now 8.5k inr oneway, almost eqv to their regional international fares (competitive routes vs. monopolistic ones). Also, they were due to send 10-12 aircraft back for reconfiguration from 16 seat Premiere to 8 seaters, and just decided to hold back due to increased deman in biz class travel. Fact is anyone paying those fares for domestic flights (even at 22k a coupon), either is loaded or its a company perk. With AI domestic premium travel was often a case of the sahibs and babus being upgraded (hence the airport upgrade schemes, discounted miles for upgrade within 24 hours of flight dep etc... ways to generate revenue from the premium cabins).
So while IT's Kingfisher First was a very good product once upon a time and made a dent on Jet's key routes like MAA-DEL vv, BOM-DEL vv, BOM-BLR vv which had the max premium travel - everyone is now back to flying Jet.

Monopoly isn't good, and Jet definitely doesn't have the maturity to sustain product in a monopolistic situation... but I think they will survive this. IT being in the state it is in definitely helps the situation.

which is exactly how free markets work - good for 9W !

they still haven't shut down. apparently VJM sent out a letter saying they had paid a chunk of service tax and their a/c are to be unfrozen which means they can begin to pay people.

i dont get why these govt departments cant just take the cash they are due from these accounts and then let KFA have access to it. Just freezing an account will achieve what?

possible lay offs coming i guess, they didn't shut down till now and if they have access to their money, then they may survive it will be as a smaller airline.

edit : i wonder how much cash these various account hold..

i dont get why these govt departments cant just take the cash they are due from these accounts and then let KFA have access to it. Just freezing an account will achieve what? [...]

edit : i wonder how much cash these various account hold..

Probably there is less cash in there than they owe... ;)

I flew IT today from Pune to Delhi. The cost cutting was evident. Lunch was a sad looking bap (filled with a mystery ingredient) wrapped in cling film and drinks were limited to those thimble sized bottles of water. The baps and water were distributed in double quick time, rubbish collected and there endeth the in flight service.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/5.0.0.822 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

I flew IT today from Pune to Delhi. The cost cutting was evident. Lunch was a sad looking bap (filled with a mystery ingredient) wrapped in cling film and drinks were limited to those thimble sized bottles of water. The baps and water were distributed in double quick time, rubbish collected and there endeth the in flight service.

Sounds very like a Jet flight.

Except Jet would have taken 3 hours to serve and clear a prepackaged sandwich. And bombarded you with advertisements from all corners in the process.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/5.0.0.822 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)



Sounds very like a Jet flight.

Except Jet would have taken 3 hours to serve and clear a prepackaged sandwich. And bombarded you with advertisements from all corners in the process.

I flew Jet (full service, not Konnect, Lite, KonnectLite, LiteKonnect or whatever they are calling it today) in the other direction. Whilst I agree that I was bombarded with adverts they did serve a proper breakfast and made several water, tea and coffee runs.

My Kingfisher flight was at lunchtime and I was rather hungry. Hey ho, at least it was very cheap!

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9000/5.0.0.822 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

I suppose it varies with route and stage length.

My flight last week was at lunchtime too, also on the supposedly full-fat service, and they handed out the prepackaged sandwiches. There was a choice of vegetarian and non-vegetarian. When asked what was in the sandwich, all she could come up with was "Veg or non-veg sir".

I passed. I would have done anyway; I was just curious.

On the way back the following day, it was the diet Konnect service. This time around, she hawked the same sandwich for 100 rupees (or some similar amount).

Whilst I personally don't see the need for any sustenance at all on a short flight, as an observation, this used to be a full hot meal route not too long ago.

And the juxtaposition of mainline and Konnect is quite hilarious. Whoever decided to not just start but perpetuate a low-fare at high-cost concept deserved one of dubious achievement awards.

Hopefully this is good news for affected Kingfisher pax! If employees are not being paid I cannot really blame them for not wanting to go to work.

BBC: Kingfisher Airline says flights to run after disruption (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18852174)
India's Kingfisher Airlines said all its flights would operate as scheduled, after about 40 flights were cancelled because of work stoppages.

Some workers stayed home on Saturday saying their salaries had not been paid.

Owner Vijay Mallya has been trying to revive the cash-strapped airline which has had to cut capacity.

The airline has seen its share of the market decline after it was forced to ground most of its fleet.

Kingfisher has never made a profit since it was launched in 2005.

Employees have taken IT to court over this salary issue..

It's really getting quite ridiculous - even February salaries haven't been paid off yet!

Employees have taken IT to court over this salary issue..

It's really getting quite ridiculous - even February salaries haven't been paid off yet!

Better not to give the salary than a bounced check...

Employees have taken IT to court over this salary issue..

It's really getting quite ridiculous - even February salaries haven't been paid off yet!

.... yes, but my 6+ tickets flown this month on IT have been cheaper than the competition and involved better at-airport and in-flight service than what 9W, AI and the rest of the Indian airlines provided me at any time this year. [Now, only if I could get my IT flights to actually result in miles being credited to my AA, AY, BA and other airline accounts, but they are no worse than SK in crediting mileage-earning flights to my UA account.]

My IT flights from the Friday just passed were on time and service was just fine relative to what the rest of the Indian airlines in the main do.

Any new insight from the AGM of KFA this week? BTW, how much did Mallya mak in the IPO of KFA? Is it more than the 5900 cr in guarantees he has floating around?

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-company/corporate-trends/kingfisher-airlines-doubled-ceos-fy12-pay-to-rs-4-crore/articleshow/16259559.cms

Any new insight from the AGM of KFA this week? BTW, how much did Mallya mak in the IPO of KFA? Is it more than the 5900 cr in guarantees he has floating around?

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-company/corporate-trends/kingfisher-airlines-doubled-ceos-fy12-pay-to-rs-4-crore/articleshow/16259559.cms

I can't get any fares from GDS for their airline anymore.
IT 2402Y 18NOV MAABLR 730A 830A SU
OPERATED BY KINGFISHER RED SERVICE
$B
NO VALID FARE FOR INPUT CRITERIA

I can't get any fares from GDS for their airline anymore.
IT 2402Y 18NOV MAABLR 730A 830A SU
OPERATED BY KINGFISHER RED SERVICE
$B
NO VALID FARE FOR INPUT CRITERIA
It's been like this in Amadeus for months...

.... yes, but my 6+ tickets flown this month on IT have been cheaper than the competition and involved better at-airport and in-flight service than what 9W, AI and the rest of the Indian airlines provided me at any time this year.

I agree with the service part. Flew with them in Feb on Hubli to BOM, but that was a last minute thing taking a flight instead of going by train (i am not a volvo/bus person). We landed up at the airport to see if flight was indeed operating and if seats were available: got a cheap fare as well and thought it would be a good way to save time and avoid train travel. Still we were worried until the plane actually left the airport at Hubli.

Otherwise booking KF involves a fair amount of risk. For a recent family trip to Goa via BOM, i booked myself and the kids on Air India, while colleague and family booked on KF just because they were the cheapest and because he liked their service. However when we all landed up at the airport, he found his flight first to BOM delayed and then cancelled. Hated to leave him behind as we boarded our own flight. Eventually he landed in Goa the next day after paying 14k per ticket for Spicejet non-stop flight: far more than what he would have paid otherwise.

The Hubli flight was quite good: excellent service by staff on ground and in air. Esp when you consider these fellows have not been paid for months. Is it really worth taking the risk booking them and then having to shell out 2x the fare having to rebook.