KLM Flying Dutchman - KLM to introduce Economy Comfort Shorthaul?

Only in Dutch:

http://www.parool.nl/parool/nl/30/ECONOMIE/article/detail/3194900/2012/02/22/Meer-beenruimte-op-Europese-vluchten-KLM.dhtml

Short: KLM wants to introduce:

- EC on shorthaul flights using the BC seats in front of the cabin.
- a la carte meals on Short haul flights.

What do you mean by "using BC seats in front of the cabin"?

There are no "Business Class" seats on the European fleet, per se - they are the same seats as in the back of the bus (though I guess they have somewhat more pitch). And they surely are not going to seat Economy Comfort passengers in the "business class seats in front of the cabin" - unless they are abolishing Business Class on shorthaul!!!

Interesting to see that they will remove the wardrobe on the European fleet.

Sacrificing the wardrobe, offering 10 cm extra legroom "using the previous BC seats".

Will they abandon EB now or add EC? Totally not clear what this means.

If they maintain EB the removal of the wardrobe is a serious downgrade, one of the key distinctions with LHs NEK. If they replace EB with EC then the downgrade is even more serious.

I wonder who will pay for xtra legroom on a 2 hour flight. If no one does, this effectively means that they are are reintroducing select seating, assuming this EC will be free for E+.

Just the translation of the article. But my guess would be, KLM sells the seats in the front with some more pitch as EC.

In the 737-700 row 1-8 have a pitch of 33 inch. Rows 9-23 have 30 inch.
Row 1-3 will be used as European BC and 4-8 as EC.

I'm also assuming this does not apply to Cityhopper.

Quite clever to try and sell the extra legroom seats (roughly 2-3 inches more legroom).
I do wonder if there are many takers for a short-haul flight.

Ad mfkne:
Cityhopper aircraft all rows have the same legroom except emergeny exit seats so I would assume that no EC would be introduced there.

Gajan

Will be interesting to see if they continue to give these to Plat elites for free ... I would like to think that they will ....

Delta has introduced Economy comfort seating on its transcon flights and from this summer also on its other domestic flights. KL is doing the same on short haul. My understanding is that in order to allow for a better recline and more space in between of rows you need to get rid of the wardrobe.
The short haul business class remains, the difference between EC and J is not the seat but but who sits before the curtain, food, newspaper (or are they getting rid of that as well for the sake of more space?), miles and flexibility. To remain consistent, the EC should be free for Plats. The a la carte meals will be paid by everyone in Y.
I pretty much agree with tgv2, just that the number of rows for J and EC will reflect the demand on the flight.

Delta has introduced Economy comfort seating on its transcon flights and from this summer also on its other domestic flights. KL is doing the same on short haul. My understanding is that in order to allow for a better recline and more space in between of rows you need to get rid of the wardrobe.
The short haul business class remains, the difference between EC and J is not the seat but but who sits before the curtain, food, newspaper (or are they getting rid of that as well for the sake of more space?), miles and flexibility. To remain consistent, the EC should be free for Plats. The a la carte meals will be paid by everyone in Y.
I pretty much agree with tgv2, just that the number of rows for J and EC will reflect the demand on the flight.

Well if they enforce it on the plane, I'd pay the few extra €. I found out on Transavia flight for instance, that almost nobody will pay for assigned seating pre-OLCI. The computer automatically will fill the seats with people, starting from the middle to the back.

So if you flight is not sold-out, the front of the cabin is a little more empty then the rest.

Needless to say that KL has said that they would look into making EC a little more a part from normal E, since now everybody seems to move to the EC directly after take-off...and sit there for free. I would think to first fix the (minor detail) problems on your concept, before rolling-out thru your complete fleet.

What a BS!!! Who'd pay more for extra recline and legroom short-haul? The emergency exits aren't even sold for €20.
And a la carte on short haul? Who's gonna pay to choose their snack? After all, I can't imagine KL will offer real meals (which the article speaks of HA!) intra-EU.

And the devaluation:

-no more wardrobe for C
- no more front row seating for Elites unless bought EC
- one could previously get more legroom for free if the plane is empty in C and choose a seat to the front
- it'll be harder to maintain a hybrid business configuration

This is funny...is KLM that desperate for cash? I can't believe that anyone would pay for this, considering that intra-EU flights are rarely even the 2 hours others have mentioned. I'd consider this for IST, and that's just about it.

What a BS!!! Who'd pay more for extra recline and legroom short-haul?

A tall person who doesn't want his knees wedged against the seat in front of him, such as me. Also, sitting near the front on a short hop can be useful. (as you seem to refer to yourself in you post actually)


And a la carte on short haul? Who's gonna pay to choose their snack? After all, I can't imagine KL will offer real meals (which the article speaks of HA!) intra-EU.

Guess it depends on the length of the flight. One can hardly have a three course meal on AMS-CDG. But on AMS-LIS I can imagine I'd like something decent.


-no more wardrobe for C


Hmmm. I don't like that idea, especially on winter flights.


- no more front row seating for Elites unless bought EC
- one could previously get more legroom for free if the plane is empty in C and choose a seat to the front
- it'll be harder to maintain a hybrid business configuration

I think some aspects are not clear at all. maybe we should wait and see. I can imagine just as well that Elites get it for free.

Also, I have the impression it increases the chance of having a free middle seat (just like is the case on long haul): nice!

This is funny...is KLM that desperate for cash? I can't believe that anyone would pay for this, considering that intra-EU flights are rarely even the 2 hours others have mentioned. I'd consider this for IST, and that's just about it.

Intersting observation. First of all I think that kLM has reason to believe that people are willing to pay for this. Secondly it could be an elite benefit, which is what we are after imho. And third, why would one want to pay hundreds more for short haul C (coat service and lunch box), which people seem to do as well?

I asked KLM on twitter and they said there aren't any plans!!!

@Zembla I can't understand neither why people would pay for EB. Maybe because they 'can' due to company policy.
But many would also fly EB in conjunction with an international C flight.

I asked KLM on twitter and they said there aren't any plans!!!

And they just confirmed after I showed the article. :rolleyes:

I recently flew AF A319 medium haul, economy: Horrible pitch, knees stuck in my front neighbors back. Basically I left the flight hurting in the lower back.

With KLM the preferred seating (row ~5-10) have extra pitch and are very comfortable. If they would make these Premium (=paid) that would be a huge con for flying KLM medium haul (2-3 hours). I quite enjoy these seats for my flights AMS-ATH :)

My understanding is that in order to allow for a better recline and more space in between of rows you need to get rid of the wardrobe.By removing the wardrobe they can add three seats to row one, but that will not increase pitch in the other rows.

This is funny...is KLM that desperate for cash?The answer is yes, they are. Desperate is the right word.

But on AMS-LIS I can imagine I'd like something decent.If they are to offer paid decent meals in Y, then they will also have to offer something even better in C to differentiate the products. If the C meals remain as they are now, the paid Y meals will be nowhere near decent.

pay hundreds more for short haul C (coat service and lunch box), which people seem to do as well?Soon to be for a lunch box only!

Interesting to see that they will remove the wardrobe on the European fleet.On full flights the wardrobe comes in very handy to store all huge carry-ons that pax are somehow allowed to drag onboard.

Johan

The emergency exits aren't even sold for €20.


They are on the Cityhopper flights I take from PRG....

Is this the same as the AF whatever-class-they-call-it?

I was once upgrade on AF ATH-CDG to this "middle" class, with better meal service than economy. Don't remember whether newspapers were offered on board though.

Is this the same as the AF whatever-class-they-call-it?

I was once upgrade on AF ATH-CDG to this "middle" class, with better meal service than economy. Don't remember whether newspapers were offered on board though.

It probably isn't, but we don't know much yet anyway.

Well if they enforce it on the plane, I'd pay the few extra €.

Delta is pretty good about enforcing that no one who has not paid for EC does not take that seat after take off.

What a BS!!! Who'd pay more for extra recline and legroom short-haul? The emergency exits aren't even sold for €20.
And a la carte on short haul? Who's gonna pay to choose their snack? After all, I can't imagine KL will offer real meals (which the article speaks of HA!) intra-EU.

And the devaluation:

-no more wardrobe for C
- no more front row seating for Elites unless bought EC
- one could previously get more legroom for free if the plane is empty in C and choose a seat to the front
- it'll be harder to maintain a hybrid business configuration

While I agree that AF/KL is sort of desperate to create ancillary revenue, I do not think this is a BS. Just consider this description of Economy comfort on DL and KL:

http://www.delta.com/traveling_checkin/inflight_services/economy_class/economy_comfort.jsp

If KL just copies DL's EC rules, which seems a reasonable assumption, then I think EC on short haul would be a benefit for FTers.

I have no idea about the nature of a la carte on short haul, but given my appetite on board I am very likely to consider it! Hopefully the J meal gets an upgrade as well.

Is this the same as the AF whatever-class-they-call-it?

I was once upgrade on AF ATH-CDG to this "middle" class, with better meal service than economy. Don't remember whether newspapers were offered on board though.

In ATH a free newspaper stand is available during boarding.

With KLM the preferred seating (row ~5-10) have extra pitch and are very comfortable. If they would make these Premium (=paid) that would be a huge con for flying KLM medium haul (2-3 hours). I quite enjoy these seats for my flights AMS-ATH :)

The article does appear to suggest that that is exactly what will happen;

Daarvoor worden voormalige businessclasszitplaatsen voor in het vliegtuig gebruikt die nu al extra beenruimte bieden, maar waarvoor de passagiers straks bijbetaald.

Basically, the article states that the former Business Class seats at the front of the plane (not the ones that are currently in use as BC), offering more leg room, will be available for a surcharge in the future whereas they are free now (preferred seating rows).

That means that FB Gold not only has to pay for exit row seating, but also for row 5 - 10 seating. I am sure the 50% discount that will be provided will be announced as a huge enhancement of the FB programme... :rolleyes:

Just the translation of the article. But my guess would be, KLM sells the seats in the front with some more pitch as EC.

In the 737-700 row 1-8 have a pitch of 33 inch. Rows 9-23 have 30 inch.
Row 1-3 will be used as European BC and 4-8 as EC.

If this is the case, I think it is brilliant! As long as the FAs keeps interlopers away, as sometimes happens on long haul EC (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/klm-flying-dutchman/1251477-klm-economy-comfort-serious-trouble.html).

So... If the seats stay the same (front row seating with a tad extra legroom), FBG and FBS are screwed? I mean if they won't add extra legroom but just sell the now preferred seating, Golds and Silvers have to pay for the seats they were normally (supposed to) atomatically and freely assigned to?

In ATH a free newspaper stand is available during boarding.

They used to have that in Schiphol, too, not all that long ago.

So... If the seats stay the same (front row seating with a tad extra legroom), FBG and FBS are screwed? I mean if they won't add extra legroom but just sell the now preferred seating, Golds and Silvers have to pay for the seats they were normally (supposed to) atomatically and freely assigned to?

When introducing EC on intra-US flights Delta also gave SM Gold members EC free of charge. My guess that KLM might do something like that as well in order to reward frequent fliers / make sure they do not have to fill the seats with non-status people as the flight is full.

They used to have that in Schiphol, too, not all that long ago.Free papers were never abolished for longhaul departures, and reinstated for CDG departures to offer service levels in line with those of AF.

Johan

I think that we can expect on longer European flights (to ath/ist) in Y an offering like the present a la carte economy meals: http://www.klm.com/travel/nl_nl/prepare_for_travel/on_board/dining_on_board/alacarte_menu.htm instead of the broodje speculaas, reserve online and pay extra to get a decent hot meal.

When introducing EC on intra-US flights Delta also gave SM Gold members EC free of charge. My guess that KLM might do something like that as well in order to reward frequent fliers / make sure they do not have to fill the seats with non-status people as the flight is full.

I doubt it. They just took away free exit seats for gold just to 'harmonize' the offerings (Silver = 25% discount, Gold = 50% discount, Plat = Free).

I fear this means 50% discount for Gold and free for Platinum members for these as well.

Would this also mean the start of ... intra-EU?

Would this also mean the start of ... intra-EU?

Can you clarify?

Would this also mean the start of ... intra-EU?

Can you clarify?

Sorry, typo. Should have been ASR (Advanced Seat Reservation).

Sorry, typo. Should have been ASR (Advanced Seat Reservation).

I had a meeting with KLM a while back and was told that there were no plans as yet to introduce advanced seat reservation for short/medium-haul Economy class flights due to the flexibility of the Business class cabin.

I am not sure if this change will also change that.

Gajan

Ì have been informed by KLM that EC Short-haul is still in the study phase so nothing is confirmed yet.

Gajan

Ì have been informed by KLM that EC Short-haul is still in the study phase so nothing is confirmed yet.

Gajan

And once again we have been jumping to conclusions and giving our opinion on rumors :p

I've been bugging KLM on Twitter for a week now. Alas they can't (won't) give details just yet. :(

I think that we can expect on longer European flights (to ath/ist) in Y an offering like the present a la carte economy meals: http://www.klm.com/travel/nl_nl/prepare_for_travel/on_board/dining_on_board/alacarte_menu.htm instead of the broodje speculaas, reserve online and pay extra to get a decent hot meal.

I think a "buy an a-la-carte meal" in advance would be disastrous on KL short-haul, if it means those that do get a hot meal, and those that don't (or didn't realise, or didn't read the emails, etc) get just a standard snack and are further miffed to find out they can't now, afterall, buy the hot dish that their neighbours are eating.

At least on the intercontinental flights, they will get a hot dish anyway.

If they are going to "enhance" catering on board for extra fees, they would be as well off going down the "buy on board" route so that all passengers can decide on the flight whether to buy something substantial, or not. (Though I can understand their desire not to have the cc handling cash/cards on board when doing the catering - the "buy in advance" element means that no payments have to be taken/accepted on board for food service)

And once again we have been jumping to conclusions and giving our opinion on rumors :p

No, we have been giving our opinion based on details provided to the media by KLM executives. And I am certain that our conclusions and opinions have proved to be very helpful for KLM in their research process. :)

I've been bugging KLM on Twitter for a week now. Alas they can't (won't) give details just yet. :(

Why would they?

Ì have been informed by KLM that EC Short-haul is still in the study phase so nothing is confirmed yet.

Gajan

Free papers were never abolished for longhaul departures, and reinstated for CDG departures to offer service levels in line with those of AF.

Johan

Now that you mention it, it probably was just on flights to CDG that I saw the free newspapers. I've not been on AMS-CDG in quite a while!

Dear all,
Few weeks back, KLM has reported that the economy comfort zone would be considered on within Europe flights. For this to happen, KLM would take away the coatrooms in Europe Business Class. This is what they have done now.

http://flyingbluenews.com/news/1174/Coatrooms_removed_from_Europe_Business_Class.html

Coatrooms removed from Europe Business Class
Carry-on luggage allowance remains the same
From April onwards, the coatrooms in KLM’s Europe Business Class will gradually be removed from the 737-fleet.

Europe Business Class passengers are still entitled to the same carry-on luggage allowance. Your carry-on items can be stored in the overhead bins, while your coat can be hung on the coat hook in the middle seat, which is always unoccupied. The first coatrooms have already been taken out of the Boeing 737-800, and the removal of coatrooms from the rest of the Boeing 737-fleet will follow. For special luggage that was previously stored in the coatrooms, there are alternate solutions. Please contact KLM via Telephone Reservations for further assistance.

Interested to see when they will announce the Economy Comfort zone to European flights.

PS! I heard Economy Comfort Zone on the European flights would not only include better seating, but also better catering choices onboard. :)! If this is true, I hope it is a free product for Platinum members! This would make free Business upgrades less attractive :p!

Sincerely,

SB

In that thread it was all rumours. Now it is confirmed by KLM.

SB

Why do they put the NIEUWS items at random.....I would think this new news would be on the first page, but I had to search for it until page 4....just find it weird.

On the forum it's already mentioned that people had to pay around € 20,- to sit up front in Y on short haul flights....lets see about catering. It's only € 20,- so I wouldn't mind paying it....I'm just Silver ;)

PS! I heard Economy Comfort Zone on the European flights would not only include better seating, but also better catering choices onboard. :)! If this is true, I hope it is a free product for Platinum members! This would make free Business upgrades less attractive :p!

Sincerely,

SB

That would be nice. Who/what is your source?

Gajan

You just gotta love how KL can't make up their minds about shorthaul J class.

They used to have proper 2 + 3 seating. Then they went to 3+3. Then they eroded the product to the point that they no longer dared use the word "business", so called it ES instead. Then they decided (or more likely the pax) that it was just not good enough any longer, so they blocked the middle seats, improved the catering and called it EB. Instead of making sure it actually lives up to its name, e.g. by offering hot towels and pre-departure drinks, they have already started to chip away at the in-flight exerience by only serving sandwiches on longer flights, and now removing the wardrobe.

Anybody who has been on full flights will know that the wardrobe gets filled with bags for which room cannot be found elsewhere, so unless they start enforcing carry-on rules they will have more storage problems than hitherto. More seats and less storage is not exactly a product enhancement.

They really ought to decide whether they want to offer a shorthaul J product or not.

Johan

They really ought to decide whether they want to offer a shorthaul J product or not.
...but they really seem to be focused on what they get out of it, not what they offer. ;)

IMO, for what they offer, it really should be priced like economy comfort seats (i.e. get it for some €50 at check-in)

IMO, for what they offer, it really should be priced like economy comfort seats (i.e. get it for some €50 at check-in)

..but you can. On most routes you can upgrade for 79 euro at checkin.

..but you can. On most routes you can upgrade for 79 euro at checkin.

That's iffy because these upgrades are not always offered. On the longer intra-EU routes I think it's €119, which is overpriced IMO. You get a slightly better meal (sandwich) and lounge access. The lounges at some of the outstations are pretty dire. But I guess whether it's worth it to me is besides he point.

That's iffy because these upgrades are not always offered.

Well, it's an absolute requirement, before such upgrades are offered at check-in, that seats in the EB cabin are available! Hence, time-of-check-in upgrades can not always be offered.

To always be able to offer such upgrades (a la selling Economy Comfort seats at check-in) would more or less require that the Europe Business Class cabin is no longer offered for sale (or closed for sale once a certain number of seats have been sold as EBC), and then just made available as a buy-up at check-in - which is a very unlikely scenario!!!

Does anyone know if they plan on taking out the coatrooms on 737-900 that are used on flights that have EBC seats but WBC service (like on flights to TLV)?

Does anyone know if they plan on taking out the coatrooms on 737-900 that are used on flights that have EBC seats but WBC service (like on flights to TLV)?

If they can already provide WBC service without any of the WBC hard product, then I'm not sure they will think the Europe Select wardrobe needs to remain on those aircraft..

Does anyone know if they plan on taking out the coatrooms on 737-900 that are used on flights that have EBC seats but WBC service (like on flights to TLV)?

If they can already provide WBC service without any of the WBC hard product, then I'm not sure they will think the Europe Select wardrobe needs to remain on those aircraft..

I believe the information states that the coatroom will be taken out of all B737 aircraft but they have started with the B738.

Inmiddels is het verwijderen van de garderobes in de Boeing 737-800 begonnen, de rest van de Boeing 737-vloot zal later volgen.

This means flights operated by KLM Cityhopper (Embraer 190 and Fokker 70) will still have the benefit of the coat hanger :D!

Wasn't there a rumour going that economy comfort was to be introduced into the european flights by end september, begining october?
Haven't seen anything or head or anything so far...?

SB

I was told this Friday at AMS that the seat I chose (=4D) is EC and should only be free for Plat, 50% for gold and so on. They seemed to put them in the same category as exit row seats.

Of course this is not the first time they have told me this, and of course they are wrong: these can be selected by all elite (and regular?) folks at OLCI.

This thread is now closed. Please follow the discussions in the dedicated thread: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/klm-flying-dutchman/1394914-confirmed-klm-introduces-economy-comfort-short-haul.html#post19449879