In today's New York Times, there is an article on US domestic first class, and another on the top international first class options.
The domestic article is about how bad it has gotten, but the writer missed the opportunity to note that 9/11 changed everything. It seems though that he actually took a lot of domestic first flights and was mostly accurate. He also noted that most passengers in the US do not actually pay for first class, but expect free upgrades and that is why the airlines have dumbed down the service and amenities.
The international article had some great photos and highlighted the best airlines including EK's A380 with the shower spa and lounge, but they made a factual error saying the lounge was for First class, when it is actually in the business class area of the plane. And the prices were nowhere near what you can get on the airlines website. This writer did not seem to be reporting from experience though. I think she wrote the article from airline press releases.
cblaisd
Feb 12, 12, 10:14 am
Please add the links, thanks.
cblaisd
Moderator, Travel News
stimpy
Feb 12, 12, 10:18 am
I don't know if there are links. I read this in today's paper. I expect people can either get the actual newspaper, or search for links, or read the Times on their ipads.
Thanks Gardy. In the newspaper, the Coast to Coast bit is actually a part of the domestic first class article.
cblaisd
Feb 12, 12, 2:21 pm
Thanks Gardy.
Ditto!
I don't know if there are links. I read this in today's paper. I expect people can either get the actual newspaper, or search for links, or read the Times on their ipads.
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In today's New York Times, there is an article on US domestic first class, and another on the top international first class options.
The domestic article is about how bad it has gotten, but the writer missed the opportunity to note that 9/11 changed everything. It seems though that he actually took a lot of domestic first flights and was mostly accurate. -----
The article does state "Later, 9/11, rising fuel costs and the recession all continued to pummel the airlines, forcing a protracted era of cost-cutting. "
So 9/11 does get a passing mention.
camsean
Feb 14, 12, 6:22 am
The idea of filling empty seats with upgrades is pretty much an American only thing, I believe. It certainly seems to have devalued the product.
stimpy
Feb 14, 12, 6:44 am
The idea of filling empty seats with upgrades is pretty much an American only thing, I believe. It certainly seems to have devalued the product.
Anyone who flew a lot in the US pre 9/11 would disagree. They had the same upgrades back then, yet offered good service with decent food and drink. I think the blame rests with the unions and managements inability to deal better with them. The financial model was unsustainable just with the brief recession we had around the time of 9/11, not to mention the fuel cost hikes that arrived later.
dtsm
Feb 14, 12, 9:38 am
Anyone who flew a lot in the US pre 9/11 would disagree.
Some things are due to 9/11. Poor service on domestic first class [and economy for that matter] is not one of them.
Int'l first class has always gotten better. Always superb on a few Asian/Arab airlines, good on many others. And, as usual, US carriers still trying to catch up, IMHO.
Siriusly
Feb 14, 12, 6:58 pm
The snack basket options seemed to have improved after 9/11 on the short-hauls... although the definition of a short-haul now covers half the country. LOL.
Some things are due to 9/11. Poor service on domestic first class [and economy for that matter] is not one of them.
I didn't say it was due to 9/11. I said it happened after 9/11. 9/11 was an excuse by the airlines and FA unions to drastically reduce their service. We were already heading into recession when it happened, and the resulting hike in oil prices from the Iraq war, etc., forced the airlines to cut back. And the US airlines were in the worst position thanks to the huge pay raises they foolishly gave out during the good times, mostly to the pilots.
Dovster
Feb 15, 12, 7:16 am
The idea of filling empty seats with upgrades is pretty much an American only thing, I believe. It certainly seems to have devalued the product.
It may be an American thing but that is not what has devalued the product.
Try flying most (all?) European airlines within Europe -- or even on medium range flights to the Middle East -- and you will find no difference between FC and Economy seats, except that the middle seat is blocked off in FC.
There is also only the slightest difference in the food service. (On AZ's flights to Tel Aviv that difference seems to be that the rolls are served warm instead of cold).
stimpy
Feb 15, 12, 8:23 am
Try flying most (all?) European airlines within Europe -- or even on medium range flights to the Middle East -- and you will find no difference between FC and Economy seats, except that the middle seat is blocked off in FC.
There is no F intra-Europe. And business class is greatly different than coach in terms of food and sometimes drink. At least on the airlines I fly, KL, AF, BA, LH, etc. And for euro flights over 2 hours, it is even better. But yes, Euro business class isn't as good as it used to be. And flights to the middle east offer flat seats in biz on many flights and a real First class on many flights.
Dovster
Feb 15, 12, 10:07 am
And flights to the middle east offer flat seats in biz on many flights and a real First class on many flights.
I have heard that Lufthansa has a real FC to TLV, but I have not flown it and can not say.
I can assure you that KLM, AF, AZ, and Czech Air do not.
stimpy
Feb 15, 12, 10:16 am
I have heard that Lufthansa has a real FC to TLV, but I have not flown it and can not say.
I can assure you that KLM, AF, AZ, and Czech Air do not.
I don't think KL, AZ and CZ even have an F class. And the middle east is more than TLV. The top 3 Euro airlines have F class to DXB for instance, with AF flying the A380. And BA has two flights per day to TLV with First class, right? I know they used to at least as I have taken them in F out of TLV in the past both to LHR and LGW.
9/11 was an excuse by the airlines and FA unions to drastically reduce their service.
The unions reduced service?
stimpy
Feb 15, 12, 3:51 pm
The unions reduced service?
Yep. This was covered in great detail here on Flyertalk if you go back and look through the threads in the UA, AA, etc. forums, and the travel security forum.
N965VJ
Feb 15, 12, 6:42 pm
Sorry, I don't recall, say, AFA announcing they would no longer serve meals on certain segments, remove pillows / blankets, etc.
stimpy
Feb 16, 12, 12:16 am
Sorry, I don't recall, say, AFA announcing they would no longer serve meals on certain segments, remove pillows / blankets, etc.
That's not how it works. The unions pressured management for changes using security as an excuse. Some of the changes were the same ones they pushed for pre-9/11 but never succeeded on. For instance they pushed for all sorts of security for themselves which led to, one example, the mid-cabin curtains being left open, only on US airlines. And all sorts of ways to deal with the new security rules which lead to making it easier for the FA's, and taking them away from service roles. And the worst of them all was to give the FA's ultimate power to get passengers they don't like arrested by the FBI. A power that was abused many times and documented here on Flyertalk and elsewhere. There are too many other points for me to recall now too, which is why I point you to the archives.
dtsm
Feb 16, 12, 7:26 am
I said it happened after 9/11.
It started well before 9/11...around time of Bush 1.
stimpy
Feb 16, 12, 7:31 am
It started well before 9/11...around time of Bush 1.
No, not really. I was flying about 300,000 miles per year at that time, mostly with UA and some AA and AS. In First class, they each had good food and excellent service from 1996 to early 2001. You could see the strains beginning in 2001, but everything really dropped after 9/11/2001 because that was the excuse they needed.
lewisc
Feb 16, 12, 8:31 am
A very reasonable request if a person read the story online. Some of us still read printed newspapers. Are we allowed to include a brief summary and discuss the article? Is that prohibited without including a link? What's the rule if the article isn't available online? What's the rule if the online article is on a subscriber only site?
Unions love to beat their chests and tell their membership how much they are doing on their behalf. The first instance I recall was the restriction, and eventual ban, of smoking on aircraft 20 years ago. Of course, AFA didn't take into consideration that a not insignificant number of FAs smoked. AFA also went to the expense of handing out tens of thousands of badges that said "Cleaner Skies, Healthier Lives" without bothering to consider that they would not be approved for wearing on a uniform.
In 2005, when the TSA announced they would roll back some of the restrictions on what could be brought on aircraft, AFA misrepresented the details to their members and launched a shrill fear mongering campaign (http://airlineforums.com/topic/25076-on-board-saftey-feared/page__view__findpost__p__334568).
Last summer, AFA testified before the House Subcommittee on Transportation regarding safety. It was a laundry list of fear-mongering and bad ideas, such as disabling the IFE and internet access since they feel these systems could be used by EvilDoers. They also called for restrictions on carry on bags, so FAs would not be distracted dealing with them, leaving them more time to "devote more attention to the more important task of watching for suspicious behavior during the boarding process (http://homeland.house.gov/sites/homeland.house.gov/files/Testimony%20Witkowski.pdf)", which really means sitting on an aft jumpseat doing a crossword puzzle.
I must have been asleep in recurrent when the subject of being able to have the FBI arrest people came up, though. FAs have always been able to have people removed from an aircraft. It's up to the LEOs, if present, to decide if an arrest will be made (such as the drunk that though it would be a good idea to take a swing at a cop on the jetway). There is a disturbing trend of FAs having passengers removed for being "suspicious" (wrong skin color and Ay-rab soundin' names), and the majority of these incidents usually happen on UA and AA.
AllanJ
Feb 28, 12, 12:04 pm
To me the only problem with paying for first class is not getting it and having to fly full fare coach.
That's bad enough for me to recommend never paying for first class.
IMHO the proper way to downgrade someone out of paid first is to refund more than the difference between what he paid and the cheapest seat he could have gotten as a second choice. To compensate for "insult" said cheapest seat should not need to have the same lack of restrictions as the first class seat originally paid for.)