Travel Photography - Camera Phones taking over P&S Market

I was reading an article recently, there is alot of news that mobile manufacturers are taking over the market of generic point and shoot cameras! It seems like there is a market now where people like all their multi-media services in one.. as the social media sites want you to share more it becomes easier for one to use your mobile to upload your photographs quickly compared to using a laptop or computer...

It looks like a very interesting market to follow in the near future. @:-)

Nothing new. People use their phone cameras for: 1) convenience, 2) cost. Since the mega-pixel war is alive and well in phone cameras, people assume they're getting very decent quality and most don't care since it's being uploaded anyways.

That's why camera manufacturers are pursuing the "prosumer" market since the target demographic are the people who would pay a little more $ to get good results.

Nothing new. People use their phone cameras for: 1) convenience, 2) cost. Since the mega-pixel war is alive and well in phone cameras, people assume they're getting very decent quality and most don't care since it's being uploaded anyways.

That's why camera manufacturers are pursuing the "prosumer" market since the target demographic are the people who would pay a little more $ to get good results.

Exactly. If all you want is minimal picture-taking capability a phone camera is adequate and that's one less thing to carry. There's no reason for a separate camera unless you want capabilities beyond what a phone can do.

Exactly. If all you want is minimal picture-taking capability a phone camera is adequate and that's one less thing to carry. There's no reason for a separate camera unless you want capabilities beyond what a phone can do.

My point exactly.. "convenience" was the word I was looking for. It seems there is a market for niche photographers that want to take adeqate photographs to share with their family and friends.

My point exactly.. "convenience" was the word I was looking for. It seems there is a market for niche photographers that want to take adeqate photographs to share with their family and friends.

I wouldn't even say it's niche. There are plenty of us who know how to do a better job than a camera phone can do.

I would agree there are plenty that can do a better job than a phone camera

However the following is also true..

1. The number of people that can really run a camera pale in comparison to those than use and have a phone. This alone makes another camera completely redundant for your average snapper.

2. Phone cameras are catching up to point and shoots at every release. an Iphone 4s's camera is "good enough" to where when given a choice to bring 2 devices chargers and spare media - the average picture snapper simply chooses to use their phone.

ESPECIALLY a single bag (Red Oxx Air Boss guy) or minimally packed guy like me on a business trip.

Note: Ill bring a full Dslr AND a point and shoot on a pleasure trip.

The point and shoot market is under serious threat.

Uncle Dave

I would agree there are plenty that can do a better job than a phone camera

However the following is also true..

1. The number of people that can really run a camera pale in comparison to those than use and have a phone. This alone makes another camera completely redundant for your average snapper.

Agreed. The shooting I generally see with P&S cameras is atrocious.

2. Phone cameras are catching up to point and shoots at every release. an Iphone 4s's camera is "good enough" to where when given a choice to bring 2 devices chargers and spare media - the average picture snapper simply chooses to use their phone.

I can imagine.

The point and shoot market is under serious threat.

So far it's only the cheap ones. I do think it will die in time, though.

2. Phone cameras are catching up to point and shoots at every release. an Iphone 4s's camera is "good enough" to where when given a choice to bring 2 devices chargers and spare media - the average picture snapper simply chooses to use their phone.

While this is true, I think a more reflective statement is that phone cameras are improving at every release. Every try to find what the sensor size of a phone camera is? It's pretty much impossible. Phone cameras are just trying to play the megapixel race without actually improving quality (although most P&S are doing the same thing). However, the difference becomes quite apparent when shooting in lower light.

While this is true, I think a more reflective statement is that phone cameras are improving at every release. Every try to find what the sensor size of a phone camera is? It's pretty much impossible. Phone cameras are just trying to play the megapixel race without actually improving quality (although most P&S are doing the same thing). However, the difference becomes quite apparent when shooting in lower light.


Mmm sort of - Of course there is a difference in low light (and a variety of other conditions as well for that matter)

The phone makers are going about camera improvements in a variety of ways beyond megapixel increases.

Note the new 5 element lens and new IR filter in the Iphone 4s in addition to an MP bump.
This helps light sensitivity and image processing by quite a bit.

Would a bigger sensor be great - sure, is a point and shoot still better- sure,

Is it good enough for simple snapping- you bet it is.

It worth mentioning that aside from zoom capability my phone is as fast and crisp as my Sony cybershot thats just a few years old. I wont take the cybershot on a plane trip anymore - the phone does enough of what I need on a casual trip.

My D7000 is my heavy hitter when I want to "go take picts", so I have am a qualified observer in performance differences between phones, points and shoots and DSLR's.

Uncle Dave

Hey, not doubting your ability to compare pics.

I just cringe when I see people using their phone cameras when the situation demands better. I recently went to a wedding and an old acquaintance (which I hadn't seen in a few years) was using his phone camera to take pics. When I asked why he wasn't using a real camera, he mentioned: 1) cost of a camera, and 2) the phone camera takes pics that are just as good. :eek:

Hey, not doubting your ability to compare pics.

I just cringe when I see people using their phone cameras when the situation demands better. I recently went to a wedding and an old acquaintance (which I hadn't seen in a few years) was using his phone camera to take pics. When I asked why he wasn't using a real camera, he mentioned: 1) cost of a camera, and 2) the phone camera takes pics that are just as good. :eek:

A phone camera will take pictures that are "just as good" if the person using it has no skill nor talent for photography. So in his case, he could have been accurate.

I get it.

Being "under-camera'd" for a preplanned event like a wedding is a crime against the event.

It's uncool, and unnecessary.


Uncle Dave

It's a shifting market and fascinating to watch.

I use P&S cameras. Active travel, accurate recognition of my relatively limited skill set, don't need/want the hassle of an SLR when I'm on, for example, an off-road cycling holiday.

The 'younger' set in my family travel widely with both - cellphone and P&S. We stop to take a picture (out in the woods, in the middle of a city) and they take a picture with the camera, then with the cellphone - the same picture.

The camera is for the 'good' picture, the one that might get photoshopped, printed, framed, used as desktop wallpaper. But...the cellphone is even smaller than the smallest P&S, uploads to facebook or gets texted to friends immediately, is never meant to be viewed except on a screen.

I'm not interested (at this time) in the second type of functionality, so a P&S suits me fine. I'm also still attached to a 'larger' image - it amazes me to watch the 'younger' set watch entire movies or surf the web or answer email and share video clips on a cellphone screen. Too small for me.

Hey, not doubting your ability to compare pics.

I just cringe when I see people using their phone cameras when the situation demands better. I recently went to a wedding and an old acquaintance (which I hadn't seen in a few years) was using his phone camera to take pics. When I asked why he wasn't using a real camera, he mentioned: 1) cost of a camera, and 2) the phone camera takes pics that are just as good. :eek:

If you don't know what you're doing then the phone camera will probably be just about as good.

It also really is as good in many cases if you're never going to print it.

I knew this was an interesting topic. The reason I asked it was I was thinking of getting a high end media phone with a good enough camera for every day use. I take at least a few pics aday.. something to remember or something that fascinates me so a handy phone camera does the job pretty well. I change all the setting to suit the environment and my pictures come out better than some of my friends that have the flashy phones at the moment... so I guess it is true its not the camera its the person?

I wouldn't even say it's niche. There are plenty of us who know how to do a better job than a camera phone can do.

While this is true, I think a more reflective statement is that phone cameras are improving at every release. Every try to find what the sensor size of a phone camera is? It's pretty much impossible. Phone cameras are just trying to play the megapixel race without actually improving quality (although most P&S are doing the same thing). However, the difference becomes quite apparent when shooting in lower light.

I guess it's a developing market then. The reason I said a niche because if your into all the social media stuff then transferring/uploading a photo to share is easier than getting the old card reader out or USB link. A good quality photo.. with small editing on the phone and up it goes. JOB DONE!

Hey, not doubting your ability to compare pics.

I just cringe when I see people using their phone cameras when the situation demands better. I recently went to a wedding and an old acquaintance (which I hadn't seen in a few years) was using his phone camera to take pics. When I asked why he wasn't using a real camera, he mentioned: 1) cost of a camera, and 2) the phone camera takes pics that are just as good. :eek:

Well I agree with you if your going to a function/wedding etc then a P&S should be the least bit of kit you should be taking with you! lol But then again you see people taking out their phone and snapping away...

I think of the photos I occasionally take with my phone as 'postcards' - they don't have to be great, I don't fool around with the relatively limited settings on my phone, easy to send to people on the spot. That seems to be the appeal for the 'younger set' in the family, too.

They look at a P&S almost the way I look at an SLR - for time when zoom/macro/quality/lighting/speed requirements trump convenience.

Any views on the iphone 4s? The results seem to be pretty good!

Any views on the iphone 4s? The results seem to be pretty good!

I like it.

I dont really use Siri, but I like the camera and video recorder a lot.

It's good enough to leave my point and shoot at home on a business trip.

That said I'd bring heavier iron on a personal trip or vacation.


Uncle Dave

I like it.

I dont really use Siri, but I like the camera and video recorder a lot.

It's good enough to leave my point and shoot at home on a business trip.

That said I'd bring heavier iron on a personal trip or vacation.


Uncle Dave

Same here, I was playing around with the camera/video functions quite abit and I finally think I might get an apple phone! I do not care much for Siri either but the 8MP camera and full HD capability is making it a front runner for mobile I want to upgrade to.

convenient for sure...but quality just isnt there. I love seeing people's pictures of their kids that are all grainy with camera flare because they used a camera phone

convenient for sure...but quality just isnt there. I love seeing people's pictures of their kids that are all grainy with camera flare because they used a camera phone


That's quite the generalized statement lumping all camera phones together.

My Iphone 4S is more light sensitive and "faster" than my 1st gen cybershot.

Phone cameras are NOT all created equal.


Uncle Dave

That's quite the generalized statement lumping all camera phones together.

My Iphone 4S is more light sensitive and "faster" than my 1st gen cybershot.

Phone cameras are NOT all created equal.


Uncle Dave

I have an Iphone 4 and while it does take decent pictures, it doesnt have the features or the quality of a decent point and shoot. It is very convenient and I use mine all the time for photos out on the road and what not but when I want quality, I get a device dedicated to taking pictures, not making phone calls.

Comparing a 2012 cameraphone to a 1st generation Cybershot circa 2008 isnt close to fair. In the last three years camera phones went from .5mp to 5+mp. The cybershot went from something like 3mp to 16mp

I have an Iphone 4 and while it does take decent pictures, it doesnt have the features or the quality of a decent point and shoot. It is very convenient and I use mine all the time for photos out on the road and what not but when I want quality, I get a device dedicated to taking pictures, not making phone calls.

Comparing a 2012 cameraphone to a 1st generation Cybershot circa 2008 isnt close to fair. In the last three years camera phones went from .5mp to 5+mp. The cybershot went from something like 3mp to 16mp

Im not debating being undercamera'd - I already went over that in a prior thread.

In all my travels I dont remember seeing a point and shoot person actually adjusting exposure or changing modes - I see them take it out- and shoot hence the name point and shoot.

The Iphone4 is NOT an Iphone 4S and is something like 70% LESS light sensitive than the 4S.

I would also actually point out that image quality isn't really about megapixels as much as it is about the lens. (always the case)

I would say people hold onto point and shoots for at least as long if not longer than phones and it IS a fair comparison to compare a few year old point and shoot to a new phone as tons of people have been using point and shoots for years as their phone wasn't good enough.

When is a phone just as good for casual snapping?
When it outperforms my 08/09 point and shoot under casual conditions.

You can do some reading on the subject of the 4s vs a point and shoot

http://campl.us/posts/iPhone-Camera-Comparison

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20122150-1/the-iphone-4s-and-canon-powershot-100-hs-shoot-it-out/

Third party testing is pretty clear its a great phone camera and better than many point and shoots just a few years old.

UD

I think one thing the camera phones have an advantage of is being able to make fast use of apps for image editing/adding a style to the pic and quickly getting it out to folks (twitter, facebook etc). However as the camera phone market has enhanced so has the point and shoot market to add incentives to continue using them over the camera phone if you want that extra control.

I have been using a Sony NEX 5x since last year as a smaller alternative to my 7D and wow it really gives me picture opportunities that my IPhone 4 just cannot match especially in zoom & low light situations. The auto controls on newer point and shoot cameras give good image for the masses who don't care about what f stop they are using :)

Im not debating being undercamera'd - I already went over that in a prior thread.

In all my travels I dont remember seeing a point and shoot person actually adjusting exposure or changing modes - I see them take it out- and shoot hence the name point and shoot.

The Iphone4 is NOT an Iphone 4S and is something like 70% LESS light sensitive than the 4S.

I would also actually point out that image quality isn't really about megapixels as much as it is about the lens. (always the case)

I would say people hold onto point and shoots for at least as long if not longer than phones and it IS a fair comparison to compare a few year old point and shoot to a new phone as tons of people have been using point and shoots for years as their phone wasn't good enough.

When is a phone just as good for casual snapping?
When it outperforms my 08/09 point and shoot under casual conditions.

You can do some reading on the subject of the 4s vs a point and shoot

http://campl.us/posts/iPhone-Camera-Comparison

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20122150-1/the-iphone-4s-and-canon-powershot-100-hs-shoot-it-out/

Third party testing is pretty clear its a great phone camera and better than many point and shoots just a few years old.

UD

Well, if you want to choose between the old PS vs the new iPhone 4s then ok, that would be a good choice. My fiance's sister has the 4s and there are some terrible photos that she has taken due to bad light metering. They dont seem much better than any other camera phone.

Heres is another great article.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/guides/2011/11/can-the-iphone-4s-replace-a-real-digital-camera-for-many-yes.ars

It doesn't take much skill to get a bad picture out of anything.


UD

Heres is another great article.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/guides/2011/11/can-the-iphone-4s-replace-a-real-digital-camera-for-many-yes.ars

It doesn't take much skill to get a bad picture out of anything.


UD

lol...you are so correct

Heres is another great article.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/guides/2011/11/can-the-iphone-4s-replace-a-real-digital-camera-for-many-yes.ars

It doesn't take much skill to get a bad picture out of anything.


UD

And note that in trying to make the comparison equal they dragged down the better cameras. They should have been using the best settings for each camera.

Another mobile phone that won the award for the best phone for 2011 was the SAMSUNG GALAXY S2!

It did better than the iphone and the new Gingerbread 2.3.4 is amazing.

I was playing around with that too and the picture quality is amazing...

The Samsung has a 8MP with 1080p video recording plus the major android app market.. not a bad package?

There's a saying among photographers that "the best camera is the one that's with you," and for many of us nowadays, that camera happens to be a smartphone too. That's where Nokia's 808 PureView smartphone and its 41-megapixel/1080p camera plans to come in.

http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-nokia-808-pureview-41-megapixel-camera-smartphone-mobile-world-congress-barcelona-20120227,0,1136628.story

Megapixel chasers will gobble this one up I bet

If you don't know what you're doing then the phone camera will probably be just about as good.

It also really is as good in many cases if you're never going to print it.

Yup.
It's like the people who buy a high end DSLR and use the auto mode on it.
I do admit using my camera phone, but with it being 8MP (Galaxy S2) and using aftermarket apps, it does take good photos (daytime - not when you need a flash)

There's a saying among photographers that "the best camera is the one that's with you," and for many of us nowadays, that camera happens to be a smartphone too. That's where Nokia's 808 PureView smartphone and its 41-megapixel/1080p camera plans to come in.

http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-nokia-808-pureview-41-megapixel-camera-smartphone-mobile-world-congress-barcelona-20120227,0,1136628.story

Megapixel chasers will gobble this one up I bet

Here is the link to the full res image of the 808 Pureview. Pretty amazing even though the 41MP is interpolate. I guess Symbian is alive and kicking after all.
http://cdn.conversations.nokia.com.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Archive2.zip

Here is the link to the full res image of the 808 Pureview. Pretty amazing even though the 41MP is interpolate. I guess Symbian is alive and kicking after all.
http://cdn.conversations.nokia.com.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Archive2.zip

Nope. The 41 MP is not interpolated. It is the native resolution of the sensor. Where the confusion comes in is the use of pixel binning - the camera can automatically create a lower resolution image that uses information from several original pixels to create a less noisy downsampled pixel.

Cheers,
T.

Nope. The 41 MP is not interpolated. It is the native resolution of the sensor. Where the confusion comes in is the use of pixel binning - the camera can automatically create a lower resolution image that uses information from several original pixels to create a less noisy downsampled pixel.

Cheers,
T.

Thanks, I guess I was listening to Engadget video blog mentioning interpolated that had me confuse. As someone looking to replace my dead G9, this looks really promising for quick snap backup cam to my DSLR.

Nokia's grasping at straws to try to maintain a semblance of relevance in this market. The once dominant player has been losing market share for years as the OS based phones continue to make the big headlines.

They are chasing statistics only guys that dont understand its the holistic combination of lens, image size, sensor sensitivity and processing combined that make a camera great. Not just a simple MP rating no mater how big.

With a 640 x 360 screen you cant even tell if a 3MP image is in focus much less if a 41MP oversampled images is.

I wonder how slow this thing will be in this mode and how large the raw image?

UD

Yup.
It's like the people who buy a high end DSLR and use the auto mode on it.
I do admit using my camera phone, but with it being 8MP (Galaxy S2) and using aftermarket apps, it does take good photos (daytime - not when you need a flash)

The auto mode is useful. The important thing is to know when not to use it.

Nope. The 41 MP is not interpolated. It is the native resolution of the sensor. Where the confusion comes in is the use of pixel binning - the camera can automatically create a lower resolution image that uses information from several original pixels to create a less noisy downsampled pixel.

Cheers,
T.

Yeah, this is where I think they'll end up going with high megapixel sensors. (Among other such enhancements.)

Yup.
It's like the people who buy a high end DSLR and use the auto mode on it.
I do admit using my camera phone, but with it being 8MP (Galaxy S2) and using aftermarket apps, it does take good photos (daytime - not when you need a flash)

I just started to use this phone too. It produces some amazing quality photographs! Obv wouldn't compare it to complex P&S or DSLR but for a mobile phone its pretty darn good.

Plus the 1080p video comes in handy. Well done Samsung Galaxy S2! ^

I just started to use this phone too. It produces some amazing quality photographs! Obv wouldn't compare it to complex P&S or DSLR but for a mobile phone its pretty darn good.

Plus the 1080p video comes in handy. Well done Samsung Galaxy S2! ^

Yup.
I'm quite happy with it. Try apps like paper camera, camera 360, and HDR.
But like it was mentioned earlier, for a wedding a camera phone is never right.

Yup.
I'm quite happy with it. Try apps like paper camera, camera 360, and HDR.
But like it was mentioned earlier, for a wedding a camera phone is never right.

Oh those sound interesting. I love playing around with different apps!

Def want to check out the HDR, is it any good?

Im into the Angry Birds and Temple Run games at the moment. ^

Oh those sound interesting. I love playing around with different apps!

Def want to check out the HDR, is it any good?

Im into the Angry Birds and Temple Run games at the moment. ^

It's a good app.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LKdzLiKlO5E/T05MFIeRWII/AAAAAAAAGr4/ope5gECrlHE/s640/2012-02-05_17-58-03_HDR.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-C45RSm5vEyE/T05LkQu1t7I/AAAAAAAAGro/Qf50akDtAe4/s640/2012-02-05_16-53-19_HDR.jpg

It's a good app.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LKdzLiKlO5E/T05MFIeRWII/AAAAAAAAGr4/ope5gECrlHE/s640/2012-02-05_17-58-03_HDR.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-C45RSm5vEyE/T05LkQu1t7I/AAAAAAAAGro/Qf50akDtAe4/s640/2012-02-05_16-53-19_HDR.jpg

Great photos!

Mate Im loving the Camera360 aap! It is genius! :D

I'd been really tempted to shift to Android, but I use the (superlative) camera in my Nokia N8 too much to want to make such a downgrade.

Hopefully soon a nice QWERTY Android can take over duties from my Blackberry instead, and the Nokia 808 will become my main cameraphone. From what I've seen, it knocks not only every other camera phone (as the N8 did), but also my P&Ss into a cocked hat.

I'd been really tempted to shift to Android, but I use the (superlative) camera in my Nokia N8 too much to want to make such a downgrade.

Hopefully soon a nice QWERTY Android can take over duties from my Blackberry instead, and the Nokia 808 will become my main cameraphone. From what I've seen, it knocks not only every other camera phone (as the N8 did), but also my P&Ss into a cocked hat.

I have only had the Samsung galaxy S2 for about 2 weeks and the Andrioid market is amazing. I was really pishing for an iphone (yes I wanted to follow the crowd!) but I am presently suprised than I would take the S2 over the 4S! The number of apps you can use with the camera are really good.

The quality of games and picture quality stick out so much. Afew of my friends that have the iphone are regretting the 4S now because they pay so much and I pay not even half of what they pay yet I get more satisfaction. One of my friends had to fork out a large £££ because the iphone used the mobile data instead of his Wifi network as priority. He was not a happy camper I tell you!

It's a good app.

Jason have you used the Caroon Camera app. The pictures come out as GTA posters or like Marvel Comics! They look immense.

I'll take a couple of snaps and put them up! ^

I just started to use this phone too. It produces some amazing quality photographs! Obv wouldn't compare it to complex P&S or DSLR but for a mobile phone its pretty darn good.

Plus the 1080p video comes in handy. Well done Samsung Galaxy S2! ^

While walking home one evening last week I wanted to get a quick shot of Jupiter and Venus in proximity to the Eiffel Tower, so I pulled out my Galaxy S2. The photo itself isn't great, but I was surprised at how well it did in the dark with the default phone settings, just standing there snapping it off in a hurry.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u249/sabramt/miscellaneous/nightsky.jpg

Your write it did do pretty well for a night time shot! ^

I find I end up with better photographs using my iPhone some days than I do with my point and shoot. Part of that is the editing I can do right on my phone with various apps. Quality wise, there are times when the prints I get from an app like Hipstamatic come out better than prints I would get with my P&S.

Here's an example of a shot I took at a concert with my iPhone: http://cduggan13.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/img_14591.jpg

and this is just a simple shot in NYC around the holidays... again with my iPhone:
http://cduggan13.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/img_1535.jpg

I find I end up with better photographs using my iPhone some days than I do with my point and shoot. Part of that is the editing I can do right on my phone with various apps. Quality wise, there are times when the prints I get from an app like Hipstamatic come out better than prints I would get with my P&S.

While there is no doubt the iPhone 4S has a vastly improved camera, it still has very limited optics, little manual control, a small sensor, and no RAW capture. The results can be outstanding, but I do not find it offers quite the same image quality potential as a good P&S. Below are a pair of gig photos taken with a Canon S90. I do not believe I could have achieved the same results with an iPhone. Whether a better photographer could have, that I cannot say...

Enrique Iglesias:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5183/5598675478_829060a0f5_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/monojussi/5598675478/)
Euphoria Tour 4 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/monojussi/5598675478/) by monojussi (http://www.flickr.com/people/monojussi/), on Flickr

U2:

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4116/4911628116_04b0695b4d_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/monojussi/4911628116/)
U2.3 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/monojussi/4911628116/) by monojussi (http://www.flickr.com/people/monojussi/), on Flickr

Both images are shot in RAW and edited in Lightroom only. No Photoshop or anything else fancy.

Cheers,
T.