TalkBoard Topics - Comments Welcome Voting Underway-Amend Talkboard Guidelines Voting Results Disclosure

Moved by kokonutz and seconded by RichMSN:

"The TalkBoard guidelines will be amended as follows:

D. Public Notice Procedures
i. Once a motion has been put before TalkBoard for a vote the Vice President/Secretary shall post a new thread in the public TalkBoard Topics forum announcing the vote along with the voting end date as quickly as feasible. Once that thread is posted, the TalkBoard Vice President/Secretary will submit a request to the FlyerTalk Host or representative to create an site-wide announcment of the vote with a link to the discussion/voting thread in the TalkBoard Topics Forum. The Announcement will be available until either voting is completed and a decision is made or the voting period ends.
ii. Motions on topics related to the internal administration of TalkBoard as determined by the President and some topics requested for discussion or input by the FlyerTalk Host will be exempted from this public posting requirement.
iii. The purpose of posting voting topics in the public TalkBoard Topics forum is to solicit member feedback on any motions that are up for a vote and to allow for comments after a vote is made. It is at the sole discretion of the individual TalkBoard members whether they choose to post in the public discussion thread, there being no requirement to do so.
iv. Once an active motion has received sufficient Yes votes for approval or sufficient No votes that approval is not possible, the Vice President/Secretary or the President shall post this fact in the public TalkBoard Topics thread announcing the vote.
iv.v. Once voting is completed and the TalkBoard President has formally announced the results of the vote in the TalkBoard forum the Vice President/Secretary shall announce the full results of the roll call vote in
a. the public TalkBoard Topics thread announcing the vote
b. a new thread in the Town Hall forum."

This vote will close on February 15, 2012 at 12:36 pm or after all TalkBoard members have registered their vote, whichever comes first.

Per the TalkBoard Guidelines:

A motion shall pass if at least two-thirds of the yes or no votes cast by TalkBoard members are ‘yes’ and a majority of the total TalkBoard membership votes 'yes.'

The purpose of posting voting topics in the public TalkBoard Topics forum is to solicit member feedback on any motions that are up for a vote and to allow for comments after a vote is made. It is at the sole discretion of the individual TalkBoard members whether they choose to post in the public discussion thread, there being no requirement to do so.

So while there is already a thread and discussion on this general topic and it is safe to assume that TalkBoard members have reviewed that thread, this thread is about this specific motion.

Please feel free to post questions, comments or any other sort of feedback in this thread, or in the other discussion thread http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1308496-discussion-suggestion-talkboard-motion-pass-fail-results-reported-real-time.html

iv. Once an active proposal has received sufficient Yes votes for approval or sufficient No votes that approval is not possible, the Vice President/Secretary or the President shall post this fact in the public TalkBoard Topics thread announcing the vote.

(bolding mine)

Shouldn't it be "motion", instead of "proposal?"

I learned from my FT education in TB that a proposal is different from a motion. Unless there's any change, my understanding is TBers vote on motions, not proposals.

(bolding mine)

Shouldn't it be "motion", instead of "proposal?"

I learned from my FT education in TB that a proposal is different from a motion. Unless there's any change, my understanding is TBers vote on motions, not proposals.

Jeez, NOW you point that out! :D

Sort of a young-dog-to-puppies thing. But yes, that would be more consistent. I will see if a friendly technical amendment is permitted.

Thanks!

I support this. I think that it stops some of the debate that has continued on the OMNI/counting posts threads, where the outcome was known to at least some. to me, this means that the strong language that tends to be used as the debate rages on would be tempered. This would foster a greater sense of community and less, "I dislike this person."

I will see if a friendly technical amendment is permitted.

It is permitted per quick discussion in the thread in the private TB forum, so now the vote in that forum & the wording in post # 1 has been amended.

Thanks to lin821 for having sharper eyes than the rest of us & catching it.

Cheers.

It is permitted per quick discussion in the thread in the private TB forum, so now the vote in that forum & the wording in post # 1 has been amended.

Thanks to lin821 for having sharper eyes than the rest of us & catching it.

Cheers.
Thanks for the quick discussion in the private TB forum and the quick change here!

and why am I not allowed to go there?

and why am I not allowed to go there?

"OMNI is the place for vibrant dialogue on topics unrelated to miles, points, and travel. It is fascinating reading and provides quite a bit of humor and entertainment."

In order to access Omni, Omni PR, Omni games, one must be a member of Flyertalk for 180 days & have 180 posts. Once you meet both criteria you will have access to Omni.

BTW - this thread has nothing to do w/ Omni, so you might want to post in an Omni-related one within this forum although the answer is the same.

Cheers.

"OMNI is the place for vibrant dialogue on topics unrelated to miles, points, and travel. It is fascinating reading and provides quite a bit of humor and entertainment."

In order to access Omni, Omni PR, Omni games, one must be a member of Flyertalk for 180 days & have 180 posts. Once you meet both criteria you will have access to Omni.

BTW - this thread has nothing to do w/ Omni, so you might want to post in an Omni-related one within this forum although the answer is the same.

Cheers.

Well, I suppose any club that would have me as a member...

Well, I suppose any club that would have me as a member...

are you a relative of Groucho ;) :D

Cheers.

Thanks to lin821 for having sharper eyes than the rest of us & catching it.

You are welcome. Not sure about me having sharper eyes though.

Apparently my eye sight is failing on a yearly basis (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/17821999-post8.html). Reading FT is really putting a strain on my fragile eyes. ;) :D

So that I'm understanding.. this thread is just talk to develop the idea to consensus before sending to a vote..

So that I'm understanding.. this thread is just talk to develop the idea to consensus before sending to a vote..

I guess you missed the part in the title that says "Voting Underway"...

BTW, this has received my vote in case anyone's curious.

No, an actual vote is underway. Carol's speed has set an example. This TalkBoard has attempted to move expeditiously on several issues. Announcing vote results more quickly is consistent with that effort.

So that I'm understanding.. this thread is just talk to develop the idea to consensus before sending to a vote..
No, they're voting on it. They moved very quickly on this.
I guess you missed the part in the title that says "Voting Underway"...

BTW, this has received my vote in case anyone's curious.
Thanks, Rich!
No, an actual vote is underway. Carol's speed has set an example. This TalkBoard has attempted to move expeditiously on several issues. Announcing vote results more quickly is consistent with that effort.
I at least appreciate that. Does your comment that announcing vote results more quickly is consistent mean that this has your vote? :D

This is a great idea and I fully support it ^^

This is a great idea and I fully support it ^^I also agree that this is step in the right direction and hope to see it come about.

I at least appreciate that. Does your comment that announcing vote results more quickly is consistent mean that this has your vote? :D

It indicates my current opinion in favor of the motion. I like to wait a while to vote so that any reasons I should change my mind have time to surface and be discussed. I don't feel comfortable voting until I'm sure that I have read and understood the very best arguments for the opposite opinion.

It indicates my current opinion in favor of the motion. I like to wait a while to vote so that any reasons I should change my mind have time to surface and be discussed. I don't feel comfortable voting until I'm sure that I have read and understood the very best arguments for the opposite opinion.

Thank you. Saying that, and explaining why you don't vote quickly, is appreciated.

While in principle, I agree with the motion, I did vote no because it does not (imho) go far enough-namely the fact that I believe public comment should close before a vote/voting period commences as imho, there is a lot of back and forth on an issue after an issue has been decided (either yes or no) but not yet published. I've posted elsewhere both publicly and privately that I'd like to see

...public discussion held, then closed and then have the vote take place as this would further eliminate the heated debate-and then if a motion passes or fails with the required number of votes before the voting period has ended, you could then post the results.

Public discussion opens
Public discussion held
Public discussion closes
Vote held
Vote results published

Yes, this might/could/would add time to the whole process but imho, it's a better way to go

No, they're voting on it. They moved very quickly on this.



Ok.. so when will we know the results?

The response to your question is the same each time you've asked it in every voting thread. It is in the first post. Have you even read it?

The response to your question is the same each time you've asked it in every voting thread. It is in the first post. Have you even read it?

My questions were regarding the vote deadlines for the Omni and Games motions. I'm unaware until yesterday about the Voting results disclosure vote happening.. Will check the first post..

So that I'm understanding.. this thread is just talk to develop the idea to consensus before sending to a vote..

I guess you missed the part in the title that says "Voting Underway"...

BTW, this has received my vote in case anyone's curious.

No, an actual vote is underway. Carol's speed has set an example. This TalkBoard has attempted to move expeditiously on several issues. Announcing vote results more quickly is consistent with that effort.

No, they're voting on it. They moved very quickly on this.


Ok.. so when will we know the results?

My questions were regarding the vote deadlines for the Omni and Games motions. I'm unaware until yesterday about the Voting results disclosure vote happening.. Will check the first post..
Really?

Really?

Seems like a weird form of post padding to me. :D

Seems like a weird form of post padding to me. :D

Hey, if some people are allowed to do it, why not everyone? :D

I like to wait a while to vote so that any reasons I should change my mind have time to surface and be discussed. I don't feel comfortable voting until I'm sure that I have read and understood the very best arguments for the opposite opinion.

+1 usually.

Which is also one reason I respectfully disagree w/ goalie that discussion should be shut down before voting. Someone might not have been aware of the discussion thread before lockdown, but would make a valid comment pro/con in the comments welcome/voting underway thread if they came across that and that comment(s) could possibly confirm or change my opinion. I also respect his voting no & his reasons for doing so.

Cheers.

+1 usually.

Which is also one reason I respectfully disagree w/ goalie that discussion should be shut down before voting. Someone might not have been aware of the discussion thread before lockdown, but would make a valid comment pro/con in the comments welcome/voting underway thread if they came across that and that comment(s) could possibly confirm or change my opinion. I also respect his voting no & his reasons for doing so.

Cheers.

+1 to the reason to allow debate to continue. Besides, if somebody has something to say why not have it show up where it belongs rather than in an unrelated thread?

If it is timely end to rancorous debate we seek, we should support this proposal.

There are some (me included) who will continue to debate an issue after it has been settled.

Most people are wise enough to conclude rancorous debate when there is no longer a chance of changing the outcome.

So if the goal is to end rancorous debate asap, then letting posters know as soon as possible that the outcome is no longer in doubt will move you in that direction.

+1 usually.

Which is also one reason I respectfully disagree w/ goalie that discussion should be shut down before voting. Someone might not have been aware of the discussion thread before lockdown, but would make a valid comment pro/con in the comments welcome/voting underway thread if they came across that and that comment(s) could possibly confirm or change my opinion. I also respect his voting no & his reasons for doing so.

Cheers.:) and :)

But using your example of a member not being aware of the thread "until now" imho, they ain't gonna be happy if the results have already been posted ;).

I know we can't hand hold and we do our best to make members aware of TB issues but it still is a horse to water and drinking issue which is why i think that if the word does get out that the change will be as I've mentioned, the process would run smoother-and if one doesn't like the results, then they are free to start a thread discussing how to change it but again, to me, it's a waste of time and effort to keep discussing something that has already been decided. I know I'm not doing a really good job of explaining it but simply posting the "pass/fail" when the required numbers are in is a dis-service.

Just my two hockey pucks
:)

If it is timely end to rancorous debate we seek, we should support this proposal.

In looking at many motions over the years there aren't many rancourous debates. A few hot button issues (usually related to Omni), but not the norm.

I'm still on the fence on this one, and while I was leaning against but then towards yes I'm leaning against again.

I think we're micromanaging something that's worked in the past for several years & probably will continue to work for several years in the future.

TB members have 2 weeks to vote - that encompasses any travel time but also if they want to take in input from FTers, that input as well. Which is a good thing.

I think we do a disservice to BOTH TB members & FT members when we say hey, we're gonna post it's passed/failed, so to FTers it doesn't matter two patooties what you think at this point. But hey for TB members that didn't vote before, no worries, as long as you vote we don't care what you think either at this point but thanks for eventually voting so it looks pretty at the end when we post results.

So if it's announced it's passed on day 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 12 or 14 - we're not talking truly, truly changing FTers experiences for the worst by magnitudes if they have to wait a few extra days to find out if something passed/failed. In other words, the FT world will not fall apart if FTers who check TB have to wait the full 14 days on the few occasions that happens.

Note I say that as a regular FTer who actually proposed a forum a few years back that got turned down & then a few years later when it was approved. I was ok with waiting on the process both times & didn't see any need to have it altered.

Cheers.

While in principle, I agree with the motion, I did vote no because it does not (imho) go far enough-namely the fact that I believe public comment should close before a vote/voting period commences as imho, there is a lot of back and forth on an issue after an issue has been decided (either yes or no) but not yet published. I've posted elsewhere both publicly and privately that I'd like to see

I absolutely, vehemently disagree with the idea that discussion should ever be shut down. Not only are there entirely valid reasons to keep discussion open (i.e. ensure all FlyerTalkers, even those who don't frequent TalkBoard, have time to air their opinion, help TalkBoard members who want to weigh the full amount of comment by the community have the time to do that, etc.), it's also impossible to truly shut discussion down: if one TalkBoard Topics thread is closed, another will pop up somewhere (either inside or outside the TalkBoard Topics forum).

As Sharon said:

Which is also one reason I respectfully disagree w/ goalie that discussion should be shut down before voting. Someone might not have been aware of the discussion thread before lockdown, but would make a valid comment pro/con in the comments welcome/voting underway thread if they came across that and that comment(s) could possibly confirm or change my opinion.

...TB members have 2 weeks to vote - that encompasses any travel time but also if they want to take in input from FTers, that input as well. Which is a good thing.I agree it is a good thing, but this proposal doesn't change this at all. So this is a non-issue.

...I think we do a disservice to BOTH TB members & FT members when we say hey, we're gonna post it's passed/failed, so to FTers it doesn't matter two patooties what you think at this point. But hey for TB members that didn't vote before, no worries, as long as you vote we don't care what you think either at this point but thanks for eventually voting so it looks pretty at the end when we post results. It is the reality today in that once a motion has the needed votes to pass/fail, any other votes after that won't change the outcome. And TB members can see that in real time (i.e. when they are casting their votes.)

So let me ask you a question. When you vote for a motion, if the needed number of pass/fail votes have already been submitted do you feel that the other TB members feel that "we don't care what you think either"? If not, then why would you think that the general FT membership would feel that way.

In the end, the only thing this really changes is to allow the general FT membership to know when an outcome has already been decided a little earlier. Which for some of the more contentious motions, may help drop the "heat" level a little bit earlier.

On February 14, 2012, Talkboard passed 6-3:

The TalkBoard guidelines will be amended as follows:

D. Public Notice Procedures
i. Once a motion has been put before TalkBoard for a vote the Vice President/Secretary shall post a new thread in the public TalkBoard Topics forum announcing the vote along with the voting end date as quickly as feasible. Once that thread is posted, the TalkBoard Vice President/Secretary will submit a request to the FlyerTalk Host or representative to create an site-wide announcment of the vote with a link to the discussion/voting thread in the TalkBoard Topics Forum. The Announcement will be available until either voting is completed and a decision is made or the voting period ends.
ii. Motions on topics related to the internal administration of TalkBoard as determined by the President and some topics requested for discussion or input by the FlyerTalk Host will be exempted from this public posting requirement.
iii. The purpose of posting voting topics in the public TalkBoard Topics forum is to solicit member feedback on any motions that are up for a vote and to allow for comments after a vote is made. It is at the sole discretion of the individual TalkBoard members whether they choose to post in the public discussion thread, there being no requirement to do so.
iv. Once an active motion has received sufficient Yes votes for approval or sufficient No votes that approval is not possible, the Vice President/Secretary or the President shall post this fact in the public TalkBoard Topics thread announcing the vote.
[strike]iv.[strike]v. Once voting is completed and the TalkBoard President has formally announced the results of the vote in the TalkBoard forum the Vice President/Secretary shall announce the full results of the roll call vote in
a. the public TalkBoard Topics thread announcing the vote
b. a new thread in the Town Hall forum.

Voting yes: Cholula, jackal, kokonutz, nsx, RichMSN, SkiAdcock
Voting no: bhatnasx, goalie, Spiff