KLM Flying Dutchman - New cc fees on klm.be

I always used to book tickets there because unlike klm.nl this site didn't charge the cc fees. Now it's €7.50, also for KLM branded Amex cards. Ridiculous. Just went to a random travel site and bought the ticket for the same price but without the fees. So in the end they actually lose money because people book elsewhere? This doesn't make sense to me.

Well be damned!!! :mad:

Credit card surcharge to compensate for rising costs

More and more air travellers are using a credit card to pay for their tickets. This increasing credit card usage has resulted in rising costs for KLM. To compensate for these costs, we are forced to charge a surcharge of € 7,5 per person (with the exception of infants) for tickets booked by credit card.

Of course, you can continue to use other - free - payment methods as well, such as debit card or the payment option "direct online banking", a once-only authorisation. The surcharge applies to all credit cards.

But this was expected if there would be another free option to pay. :(

Crap :( Bad news..

Which 3rd party sites allow to book KL tickets by CC without additional fees? The well known Dutch ones (tix.nl, vliegtickets.nl, cheaptickets.nl) all charge huge service and creditcard fees. (Like 30 euro per ticket).

Why not use the .ie site?

No CC fee's at all, and neither does the .fr site (at least AF's site's)...

Why not use the .ie site?

No CC fee's at all, and neither does the .fr site (at least AF's site's)...

Can you also select departure point AMS from there?

Yes, I noticed that they added credit card fees to both the Belgian (€7,50) and Irish (€2) sites on Friday.

The klm.ie site however can only be used to book tickets departing from Ireland, the UK, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.

But indeed, www.airfrance.ie does not appear to apply any credit card fees, and can be used to book tickets departing from several European countries - and even some non-European countries:

Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, USA

Following your advice I gave the AF website a go. It does seem they don't have a cc surcharge BUT the tickets that I was looking for were all 10 Euros more expensive than on the KLM site. So it appears that they have secretly priced in the cc surcharge.

It's just about milking the customer because doesn't KLM have a 10 Euro "booking fee"? Why does this not include any cc charges which are presumably linked to the booking of a ticket?

Anyway, where I book these days is cheaptickets.de: Amex is free of charge, all other ccs are 6 Euros. Another option is expedia.de -- with KLM they always add a 3 Euro charge, which is still cheaper than the 7,50 Euros KLM charges.

What I still don't understand is why KLM doesn't make an exception for its co-branded AMEX cards. I complained to them about it and they said that AMEX would not allow it. When I talked to AMEX (Netherlands) I was told that the airline refuses to allow exceptions. Great customer service in both cases...

Following your advice I gave the AF website a go. It does seem they don't have a cc surcharge BUT the tickets that I was looking for were all 10 Euros more expensive than on the KLM site. So it appears that they have secretly priced in the cc surcharge.


Try www.airfrance.ie instead of www.airfrance.nl

You can buy tickets originating from the Netherlands via the Irish website; the price quoted is €10 cheaper when bought on the Irish website.

Incidentally, which "random travel website" did you use to book your ticket (as stated in your OP). There are no Dutch-based booking sites (that I know of) that don't charge some sort of fee/levy a credit card surcharge.

(As noted above, www.cheaptickets.de doesn't charge for Amex, but does for other credit card types)

I did a quick check this morning on flights from GVA-CDG with AF just to see if there are changes in the fees for the pure reason that (as Irishguy28 says) you can change your place of departure to whatever you want it to be. The dates I set was 17-19 of Feb for one person in Y (cheapest possible):

1. Irish site - EUR 107.97 and no CC fee,
2. French site - EUR 110.97 and no CC fee,
3. Belgian site - EUR 107.97 but EUR 7.50 per pax = EUR 122.97

The AF sites now also show available flights with KLM & Delta but with some restrictions (no direct flights I believe)...

AMS-ATH direct is bookable through airfrance.ie :) So they do become a bit more flexible in regards to which flights can be selected :)

Keep in mind though that the KLM (and probably AF too?) sites currently offer a 10 euro discount on the booking fee due to the World-Deal-Weeks promotions.

Well be damned!!! :mad:

+1

I honestly do not understand why KLM would attempt to drive away customers from its own website to third party websites that do not charges credit card and ticketing fees.

Why is that surcharge calculated per pax? There is only one transaction, isn't it?

Why is that surcharge calculated per pax? There is only one transaction, isn't it?

Could be they actually do a transaction per pax, I know Lufthansa does. Maybe this is (legal concerns?) easier for administration purposes or possible refunds?

It is my impression that the credit card company charges a fee per transaction (Visa / Mastercard ~ 1.5% per transaction; American Express ~ 2% per transaction).

By charging a fixed fee per ticket they can earn some costs back.

Why is that surcharge calculated per pax? There is only one transaction, isn't it?

I often book tickets for 2 pax in one booking.
On my credit card statement the transaction is always shown as transaction per ticket, despite having booked the tickets in one go.

This way each ticket is considered a separate transaction and the fee is charged per ticket, not per booking.

I feel like this is a Dutch thing, and it bothers me a lot as a frequent visitor to Holland and someone without a Dutch bankcard. All of the tickets cost more, including at the train stations with a credit card. There was some other place that charged me, but it's slipped my mind at the moment.

I feel like this is a Dutch thing, and it bothers me a lot as a frequent visitor to Holland and someone without a Dutch bankcard. All of the tickets cost more, including at the train stations with a credit card. There was some other place that charged me, but it's slipped my mind at the moment.

Why is this a Dutch thing, when this is a thread about the Belgium KLM site, with the same sort of information about German and Irish sites?

Why is this a Dutch thing, when this is a thread about the Belgium KLM site, with the same sort of information about German and Irish sites?

I think benzemalyonnais rather meant that the acceptance of credit cards in the Netherlands is much lower than, say, in the US and Dutch companies like to charge additional fees to their customers to offset the credit card companies' commisions. And KL is one such company that pursues this goal everywhere including Belgium.

I think benzemalyonnais rather meant that the acceptance of credit cards in the Netherlands is much lower than, say, in the US and Dutch companies like to charge additional fees to their customers to offset the credit card companies' commisions. And KL is one such company that pursues this goal everywhere including Belgium.

I do understand and I do agree with the opinion that the Netherlands has a much lower acceptancy than the US, and when accepted it's frequently with fees. But the same is applicable for other European countries (Belgium, Germany to mention a few) and this thread is NOT about the Dutch website but about the Belgium one, so when his reaction was to the Belgium market I could have understood (althought they aren't alone either), but this is a bit like "I couldn't use my creditcard in Swaziland" or something like that.

Sorry for being unclear. The random travel site was indeed cheaptickets.de -- no charges for Amex payments (I have an Amex) and 6 Euros for other ccs as mentioned above. Found it via Kayak. And again, with the German Expedia site it's always a 3 Euro fee (when I pay with Amex). Still better than the 7.50 Euros that KLM charged.

The flight I had booked was AMS-BLQ (29/6-2/7):

klm.be: 178,99 plus 7.50 cc fee
klm.nl: 188,99 (which includes a 10 Euro booking fee) plus 7.50 cc fee
airfrance.ie: 242.00 (!)
airfrance.nl: 189.00
cheaptickets.de: 178.99 (under an Air Italia flight number).

So each KLM/AF site is more expensive than cheaptickets.de if you count in the cc charges.

The flight I had booked was AMS-BLQ (29/6-2/7):

airfrance.ie: 242.00 (!)

So each KLM/AF site is more expensive than cheaptickets.de if you count in the cc charges.

Are you sure? I'm getting €149.99 on airfrance.ie for that route and those dates...considerably cheaper than any of the prices you quoted above, and almost €100 cheaper than the price you found on the same website...which I can only replicate by choosing the final (and most expensive) return flight on the Monday.

http://i41.tinypic.com/259j0u9.jpg

Sorry for those comments - sounded a bit unclear. What I was trying to say, was what ajs123 thought - because KLM is a Dutch company, and charging more for credit cards is the norm, so they're doing it. They're probably doing it on the Belgian site because they realized that everyone was just booking there. The Irish site makes no sense to me, but maybe KL is going to do that with all of their sites in the near future.

I think that there is a significant benefit or incentive for Dutch companies to process payments with a Dutch bankcard and for this reason they try to steer people away from using CCs at all (but I'm not Dutch so can't be sure).

But that's not uniquely Dutch. There are numerous countries/websites/companies where credit cards (or particular credit cards) attract a higher charge than when paying with a debit card. I've experienced, in several countries, a reluctance to accept Amex even when it is one of the supposedly accepted forms of payment, because a lot of merchants hate paying the higher merchant fee. But then, a lot of places don't accept Amex for that very reason. New Zealand is an example - some places ask outright if you have a different card when they see you with an Amex in your hand - one place I stayed said they didn't accept Amex, despite having several Amex-branded things on display in the office and an Amex "Open" sign in the office window (of course, they may have accepted it in the past) - and JB Hi-Fi has signs at the tills explaining that payments by credit card (I don't think it was just for Amex) attract a surcharge of (whatever)%.

I can't remember where it was, but I once tried to pay with Amex in a restaurant that delivered the bill in an Amex padded folder - only to be told that they did not, in fact, accept Amex.

Conversely, my local Media Markt here in the Netherlands recently began accepting Amex as a form of payment.

I think that there is a significant benefit or incentive for Dutch companies to process payments with a Dutch bankcard and for this reason they try to steer people away from using CCs at all (but I'm not Dutch so can't be sure).

The system for electronic payment (known as PIN) in the Netherlands used for many years now charges something like 5cents (as in €0.05, not 5%) per transaction. (it's currently being replaced by Mastercards Meastro btw)

Furthermore bank transfer and iDeal (instant bank transfer system), cost less than a euro per transaction and are non-refundable.

It may not be nice for international customers or people with a reward program on their CC, but I see why KLM prefers different payment methods than credit cards.

I think this is just an issue of customer service. Yes, it might cost KLM a bit more to accept credit cards, but on the other hand, they might attract more customers to their own sites because of that. One of the conveniences of a credit card is that the money does not get debited from the account right away (as the Dutch PIN/Maestro system) does. This also makes it easier for me to follow my expenses. Living as an expat in Holland, I find customer service almost non-existent in many places, and charging the credit card fees is just one of those issues. (And yes, I know, there are other countries where the situation is equally bad.). But apart from these general thoughts -- it's still not clear to me why (1) KLM charges a credit card fee when other sites don't, redirecting customers to these other sites and losing profit (presumably these other sites get some form of commission from KLM? and (2) why the same company charges different prices for the exact same route on its various websites. Irishguy28: I was specifically looking for the two evening flights and the prices are indeed different. Screenshots attached:http://dl.dropbox.com/u/45264671/AF.ie.JPG
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/45264671/klm.be.JPG

Incidentally, which "random travel website" did you use to book your ticket (as stated in your OP). There are no Dutch-based booking sites (that I know of) that don't charge some sort of fee/levy a credit card surcharge.
Why does the booking site need to be based in the Netherlands? You can purchase tix from any site, right? (Hint: US sites don't have these fees.)

I would say that if that's indeed the case, then by all means buy your tix on other sites and save the money. The only issue with this is in case there is some sort of issue with the reservation. In that case KLM will send you to the other company, and the other company will send you to KLM. That's the only drawback to buying your tickets from someone other than the actual airline (because if you buy from them they are the only ones responsible for everything and they have nobody else to blame).

Well I just got this today.....hilarious how they call it 'Optional Payment'. I guess they are referring to tickets bought on opodo, expedia etc as KLM.com charged my cc fees last week on bookings with my cc.


Dear Elite Customer,
We would like to inform you that from 15 February 2012, AIR FRANCE KLM will introduce an Optional Payment Charge in the UK for AIR FRANCE (057) and KLM (074) tickets, purchased with a credit card .

As part of this change, a £4.50 payment charge will be payable for AIR FRANCE KLM economy cabin tickets purchased. This charge is currently in place for tickets purchased on www.airfrance.co.uk and www.klm.com and this will align the credit card charges across all the distribution channels.This fee applies per ticket.

The Optional Payment Charge is applicable to any tickets issued on Air France 057 and KLM 074 tickets where the form of payment is a credit card and where the fare for the segments booked is an economy cabin fare. Visa & MasterCard Debit cards including Visa Electron & Maestro cards will be exempt from the charge, which is why it is called Optional Payment Charge.

Details on the application of the Optional Payment Charge:

-The Optional Payment Charge amount is £4.50 and is applicable for all 057/074 economy cabin tickets issued on/after 15 February 2012.
-First, Business and Premium economy fares will be exempt from the charge.
-In case of combination of Premium fares with economy cabin fares, the Payment Charge applies.
-In case other airline segments are issued on Air France or KLM ticketing authorities, the charge applies.
-Infant fares will be exempt from the Optional Payment Charge.
-The charge is non refundable even in case the ticket is refundable.


Please don't hesitate to contact the Elite Team if you have any queries.

Why does the booking site need to be based in the Netherlands? You can purchase tix from any site, right? (Hint: US sites don't have these fees.)

It doesn't have to be - I've not used klm.nl, or any Dutch-based ticket agent, for many years.

I'm just showing that, in the Dutch market, klm.nl is not exceptional by charging a €7,50 credit card fee.

I'm sure many of their Dutch passengers would book mostly with klm.nl or with a Dutch travel agent, and so are used to paying a credit card fee. Hence I was considering options based solely in the Dutch market.

(Personally, I tend to prefer paying with other Euro-denominated booking agents, rather than paying in US dollars with an American agent, because Amex charges a nasty currency conversion fee. It looks like airfrance.ie will be my main source of booking AF/KL trips from now on, replacing klm.be, at least until such time as they also add a credit card fee!!!).

Well I just got this today.....hilarious how they call it 'Optional Payment'. I guess they are referring to tickets bought on opodo, expedia etc as KLM.com charged my cc fees last week on bookings with my cc.


As stated in the mail you reproduced, airfrance.co.uk and klm.com(UK) already include the charge - which is why you were charged in your bookings last week.

And they call the charge "optional" because they offer you other payment routes for which no credit card fee is payable.

As stated in the mail you reproduced, airfrance.co.uk and klm.com(UK) already include the charge - which is why you were charged in your bookings last week.

And they call the charge "optional" because they offer you other payment routes for which no credit card fee is payable.

Yeah - i did read it and understand why I was charged it, but it isn't exactly clear (other than the mumbo on aligning distribution channels) as to who they are referring to.

I just think calling it optional is nonsense as it implies I have a choice, which is only the case if I satisfy further options. Maybe they should actually call it 'very optional' or something and sell it as another benefit to us.

So on the Belgian site, the surcharge is E7,50 per person. On the Dutch site, it is E7,50 for intra-Europe and E15 for intercontinental per ticket.

Why is there a difference between intra/ex -Europe. And what is 'per ticket'? Per person or per booking?

Per person, per booking.

Each person gets one ticket per booking, regardless of the number of sectors(*) in the ticket. And each such ticket is charged at the €7,50 rate (I didn't know the intercontinental rate was €15!!!!).

[In the case of Aer Lingus, for example, a €6 "handling fee" is applied per person, per sector (on shorthaul, at least). If you book a one-way - that's an extra €6 per person. If it's a return ticket - it's an extra €12 per person.]

(*) - Subject to the maximum number of sectors possible on a single PNR/e-ticket/possible on the booking engine, of course!!!

(I didn't know the intercontinental rate was €15!!!!).



For Dutch, apparently not for Belgian. I have no idea how they can explain that difference. :confused:

I have no idea how they can explain that difference. :confused:

Certainly that is for the benefit and convenience of the passenger, don't you realize?

Certainly that is for the benefit and convenience of the passenger, don't you realize?

Lol!!!!

Please remember in all of this the advantages vs disadvantages in booking directly with an airline vs 3rd party site, especially when it comes to changes/cancellations. I don't agree with the fee because it's grossly excessive, but an airline only charges slightly more than a 3rd party site I know which one I'd use.

Dear Elite Customer ...Well, this 'Elite Customer' hasn't been informed (other than by chunk73) in spite of having booked revenue and award flights online recently. :p... an Optional Payment Charge in the UK ...They may have got the idea from the LH Group, and in particular the bozos at SWISS who introduced a real non-optional OPC. The only exception was using a Maestro debit card (not available to GB customers) or online transfers via a German online system (not widely available to UK customers). They relented, thanks no doubt to the FTer who referred them to the UK authorities, and now accept Visa debit cards without fee but not MasterCard debit cards. Count your blessings? Maybe, but it's still distasteful.... this will align the credit card charges across all the distribution channels.Untrue, as demonstrated above.

In a UK press ad yesterday, Cityjet specifically mentioned no card fees. :)

This is on www.cityjet.co.uk too.7 reasons to fly CityJet
- Land in the heart of London
- No online credit card or check-in fees
- No charge for drinks or snacks on board
- Award winning service
- From 15 minute check-in time
- Frequent Flyer Flying Blue miles to collect - redeemable across entire AirFrance-KLM network
- No baggage fees & golf bags fly free

Could be useful for LCY AF and some other shorthaul flights.

Despite this change, there are still other convenient options for those who wish to avoid these stupid fees:

1) Book on Delta.com (which is priced in euros, and has no credit card or booking fees).

2) Book on Expedia.com (which has no credit card or booking fees, although the US-based would likely trigger FX fees from your credit card company) or another site.

Even with the credit card fees going away, you'll still avoid the €10 per ticket "booking fee" by using KLM.be, so it's still the better option.

Agree with others that it's a stupid business decision by KLM to encourage people to book through other channels. They may be making the credit card fees from some, but for others they will increase the commissions that they pay to travel agents.

Arent KL tickets booked on Delta.com issued by KLM and have the added extra fees as well?

Arent KL tickets booked on Delta.com issued by KLM and have the added extra fees as well?

I believe so as well. It was a recent enhancement.

Don't forget the Air France Ireland website for booking your tickets ex-AMS.

Arent KL tickets booked on Delta.com issued by KLM and have the added extra fees as well?

I believe so as well. It was a recent enhancement.
.

It's not a recent Enhacement, it's been in place for more than a year - own experience from Jan 2011.