Cruises - Change of Cruise Schedule

Hi - This might be the totally wrong venue for this question, but if it is I apologize and beg that someone could refer me to a more appropriate forum.

Here is the issue - My parents are in their 80's. Several months ago they and several of their friends and relatives booked a cruise on Royal Caribbean Lines, for this coming February. The ticket price was around $US 2000 each (not sure if it was per person or per couple)

The trip was originally scheduled to depart on a Thursday (or was it Friday? I don't know the full details). Anyway, now they were notified that it is going to be delayed and will now depart on the following Saturday.

The issue is that my parents and the rest of the group are orthodox Jews, Sabbath observers, and cannot leave on a boat on Saturday.

They explained the issue to the Royal Caribbean representative, but the response was basically tough luck. They were told they are welcome to join the cruise on Saturday, but if they choose not to they would only be entitled to a refund of $600 each.

These are not rich people, they are elderly folks who wanted to enjoy themselves for a few days on a cruise and put their hard earned savings into it.

Is it fair for the cruise line to change the date and not allow a full refund? Even if that is true, it would seem very unfair to penalize someone for following their age old religious practices.

Does anyone have any suggestions for resolving this?

Thanks, Victor

Which Royal Caribbean ship is this ?

Worldspan
131 cruises strong

Ok, I got more information.
The ship is Explorer of the Sea
The actual price is around $3300 per couple.
The cruise is only willing to refund $600 of that.

The ship was originally scheduled to leave New York on Friday Jan 27, 2012.
There are 2 couples involved.

read the contract.....usually, cancellations w/i 90 days of departure get no refund.....

what is the first stop? if not one of those private islands, they could fly there & get on.....

did they get the cruise air?....if not, what do they have?.....

Does that apply even if the cruise line changes the date?
Even if so, does anyone know anyone high up there, that might be sympathetic?

You will most definitely have better luck and responses at CruiseCritic (http://www.cruisecritic.com). They're like the FT of the cruise world.

At the very least, I would have them call back and escalate the issue.

How was the cruise booked, through an agent or direct? If it was through an agent, the travel agent may have better luck at getting it resolved.

The notice about the update is here

http://www.royalcaribbean.com/contentPage.do?pagename=important_updates

Though it doesn't say anything about what they are willing to do for the passengers.

You should click on the little red triangle in your post and ask the moderator to move this to the cruise forum, there may be people there who have some ideas.

Does that apply even if the cruise line changes the date?
Even if so, does anyone know anyone high up there, that might be sympathetic?

do you have the contract?

do you have the itin? i would see if the ship arrives at the port in nj the day before, in which case, i would ask if they could board on fri nite if 2 cabins are available.....its a big ship...might work....i've seen others that docked the nite before....

it looks like its round trip nj, so air wouldn't be involved....

do you have the contract?

do you have the itin? i would see if the ship arrives at the port in nj the day before, in which case, i would ask if they could board on fri nite if 2 cabins are available.....its a big ship...might work....

It doesn't arrive until Saturday

Explorer of the Seas' arrival to Cape Liberty has been unexpectedly delayed due to a medical emergency, and will now arrive in Bayonne, New Jersey, on Saturday, January 28, one day later than originally scheduled.


Any chance they can make it after their sabbath ends? Not sure where they are coming from. Because they are asking people to board between 2 and 6, there may be some time if it's a sundown to sundown sabbath.

Definitely go to cruise critic.com. There are some very knowledgable and helpful folks there. Much more aware of finer points in changes like this.

The ship had to divert back closer to land to get in range to medivac a sick passenger to San Juan. The medivac occurred around 5pm this afternoon. As a result the ship won't get back to New Jersey until around 10am on Saturday, hence the delay. Original departure was scheduled for Friday evening.

Unfortunately, per the cruise contract the cruiseline does have the right to make changes like this. They are sometimes willing to make exceptions, but it's usually case by case. If they booked with a travel agent, ask the travel agent to escalate this. Otherwise, if they booked directly I would call back tomorrow during the day and ask to speak a supervisor.

the suggestion i made above re flying to the first port could be done if your folks want to salvage part of the cruise....i would see what the line can do to get air tickets for the 4.....all the ports seem to be in the carribean & they will probably miss one in order to get back on the original schedule......

for sure, all the pax will be upset.....& may be given a voucher for use on a future cruise which i believe has been done in the past....

however, if they want to go, get w/the line in the morning to get the air set up....its possible they can do a lot better than you.....

They already spent the whole day today talking to customer service, the travel agent, their credit card company, and some others.

I also just found out my father bought trip insurance. He has a medical condition and took out a policy in case he was forced to cancel. That might cover him, remains to be seen.

The idea of going after sundown has potential - sundown is around 5:10, so sabbath ends around 40 minutes after that. Even if they stay in a hotel near the pier, it would be very close, too close to really plan for it.

On the other hand if the boarding would extend to say 7, they could pull it off.
Not sure if 6 means 6, or if there is some play?

The issue is that my parents and the rest of the group are orthodox Jews, Sabbath observers, and cannot leave on a boat on Saturday.

They can't leave on a boat until sundown? If boarding time goes until 6, the boat isn't going anywhere until well after sundown. To me, leaving on a boat means they're on a boat that's leaving. They won't be leaving until Shabbat is over.

If people can twist the words of their religious text to justify committing heinous crimes, I think your parents can twist the words of their religious text to justify going on vacation ;)

Unfortunately, they are not the heinous type :(
Shabbat ends 40 minutes after sunset, then they would need to check out, get a cab with their baggage, and make it to the boat. It is way too close. (Unless these ships tend to leave some wiggle room, not sure)

Probably no wiggle room, especially if it's already running late. They'll want to get everyone boarded and get out of there.

IMO, Royal Caribbean doesn't owe anyone anything except perhaps a night in a hotel for everyone who flew into NJ on Friday. It's not like the cruise is leaving early and people have to pay flight change fees to arrive on time. Everyone is already in NJ, and if your parents are choosing not to board, that's their problem and not RC's.

I think the problem with risking trying to make it after sundown is RCCL is currently saying passengers must arrive between 2pm and 6pm. So with the current arrival timeline and your parents restriction, getting there by 6pm would be almost impossible. The only hope is that boarding would be even further delayed.

The travel agent should try again tomorrow. I know a lot of information wasn't known until late this afternoon/earlier this evening. The medivac itself didn't happen until late this afternoon.

Also look into the suggestion of flying to join the cruise in one of the ports. From what I've seen, the new itinerary has them skipping Labadee, their original first port, and continuing on with their original itinerary from there.

uh, huge discrimination lawsuit? surprised no one has said that yet... cruiseline should be happy to accommodate instead of going to court.

uh, huge discrimination lawsuit? surprised no one has said that yet... cruiseline should be happy to accommodate instead of going to court.

Are you serious? How is this in any way discriminatory? The possibility of a cruise ship leaving late, much like the possibility of a flight leaving late, is something that the customer has to take into account if their religious beliefs are this inflexible. When you book a trip and expect everything to go on schedule as planned with no room for error, it's only a matter of time before you'll be disappointed, and it's not the hotelier/airline/ship/etc's fault.

So if I understand correctly your parents can't leave on a cruise ship on the sabbath, but can spend the entire day on one? (Had the original schedule been maintained)

Is it just the departure that's not permitted or actual travel?

Having been on many cruises myself, I would not count on any wiggle room on the check-in time. Since your folks can't leave the hotel until 5:50pm, there's no way they'll make the boat in time. Royal Caribbean will also not wait for them.

Are there any other Royal Caribbean cruises leaving on Friday? Maybe the group could switch to a different ship.

uh, huge discrimination lawsuit? surprised no one has said that yet... cruiseline should be happy to accommodate instead of going to court.

RC isn't telling them they can't board because of their religious beliefs. That would be discrimination. These people are choosing to not board because of their religious beliefs. RC is not preventing them from getting on. This isn't discrimination. They are free to walk on the boat and nothing's stopping them. If they choose not to, that's their fault.

have you looked at them flying to the next port?.....i think that is the best solution....or, take the $300 each....i'm surprised that they get anything for canceling at this time.....the cruise lines have agents in each port who can arrange stuff like this.....its worth finding out the cost is....

we have jumped ship before getting to the final port twice....also have had a few near misses getting on.....

Can they ask a Rabbi for guidance? I know there are exceptions for hardship (e.g. in the case of flight delays).

The Rabbi for guidance is a very good thought. They can sometimes be given dispensation (it happened for a hockey game for one of our travel team so.....). The issue is clearly not being on the boat but TRAVELLING to the boat. Orthodox may not drive on the Sabbath.

Could the group walk to the pier while someone at the hotel sends their luggage in a cab?

Checked on that - unfortunately the closest hotel is 3.7 miles and they are in their eighties.

i have also heard of rabbis being consulted for interpretation in certain situations

Are you serious? How is this in any way discriminatory? The possibility of a cruise ship leaving late, much like the possibility of a flight leaving late, is something that the customer has to take into account if their religious beliefs are this inflexible. When you book a trip and expect everything to go on schedule as planned with no room for error, it's only a matter of time before you'll be disappointed, and it's not the hotelier/airline/ship/etc's fault.

1-2 days late with no compensation

im assuming end date has also changed - what if this conflicted with something else?

i have also heard of rabbis being consulted for interpretation in certain situations



1-2 days late with no compensation

im assuming end date has also changed - what if this conflicted with something else?

i would bet that all on this sailing will lose a day from the trip....otherwise, the next sailing will have to be delayed......

to the op.....please remember to report the outcome....someone may benefit from the info.....

Please follow the thread as it moves to FlyerTalk's Cruise forum. Ocn Vw 1K, Moderator, TravelBuzz.

Get an exception from the rabbi. Don't throw away a once in a lifetime opportunity and thousands of dollars.

Orthodox may not drive on the Sabbath.

May not drive, or may not be driven? Or both? Not being religious, I don't personally understand these type of issues, but I hope the people involved are able to find a workaround that they are able to make work for them.

Flying and staying in San Juan waiting for the ship to get there on Tuesday won't be cheap, and there is virtually no chance that RCI is going to contribute to that. But if they were to be prepared to do that, then I would suggest they stay at the closest hotel to the pier, have a cab at the ready, and head to the port as soon as they are permitted (550pm?). There is virtually no chance that ship sails at 6 if not arriving until 10am, so, odds are they get on the ship. But if not, then they go back to the hotel, book their flights to SJU and head off there on Sunday and enjoy the sun.

1-2 days late with no compensation

im assuming end date has also changed - what if this conflicted with something else?

Usually passengers are compensated a pro-rated portion of their cruise fare when a ship is delayed like this. The end date remains the same, so this particular cruise is simply shortened by a day.

1-2 days late with no compensation

im assuming end date has also changed - what if this conflicted with something else?

All passengers are getting a refund of 15% of their cruisefare as onboard credit - but you still have to sail. They are missing out on 1 night of a 10 night cruise, and the sailing will still end on the original date. So 10% goes towards what they paid for the one night they will miss and 5% is compensation. Actually fairly decent compensation based on what I've seen in the past for delays on cruises.

Hi All - I spoke to my father and after 2 days of negotiation the story came to a happy conclusion.

Apparently he finally got through to someone on the cruise line who understood the situation and was very sympathetic. First, my father tried to ask them to allow him to board at 7PM but (obviously!) they could not do that.

But what he did offer my father was to take the next cruise on Sunday, and make an even exchange (possibly a small up-charge, my father was not clear). That cruise is 2 days longer, so it was a very generous offer.

Visa Card was also involved, and they were so pleased, they gave my father an additional perk of several thousand free miles on his card.

Obviously Royal Caribbean went above and beyond to accomodate my father.
We are all very grateful to them.

Regards, Victor

PS - a Rabbi would not have the power to allow them to violate the laws of Shabbat. Orthodox Jews are pretty firm on that stuff.

Thanks for the update. I'm glad that a solution was worked out for all parties. May they have a smooth seas and a great vacation.

Thank you, and thanks to all for your help.
By the way, I must be lame - I tried to post this on the cruise talk site, and could not for the life of me figure out how to post something there.

Very good news indeed.

Sounds like they got moved over to the Celebrity Silhouette (sister cruise line of Royal Caribbean). I think they will be very happy with this move, as it's a quite new ship (barely 6 months old), large like the RCI ship and a lot less people on it. I have heard nothing but good stuff about that class of ship. Glad to see it all worked out for them.

I'm glad your father and Royal Caribbean were able to work out a good compromise. I hope they have a wonderful trip. :)

Thank you, and thanks to all for your help.
By the way, I must be lame - I tried to post this on the cruise talk site, and could not for the life of me figure out how to post something there.

What problem did you have? I post there a lot so I might be able to help.

uh, huge discrimination lawsuit? surprised no one has said that yet... cruiseline should be happy to accommodate instead of going to court.

In what way is this discriminatory? I suspect the case would be laughed out of court and the parents would be on the hook for legal fees.

But what he did offer my father was to take the next cruise on Sunday, and make an even exchange (possibly a small up-charge, my father was not clear). That cruise is 2 days longer, so it was a very generous offer.

I'm betting the ship was oversold anyways, and RCL probably got out cheap with this as the resolution. Generally when they get close to sailing, if they're oversold, they start making calls for move-over offers. The more desperate they get, the better the offer. But it's good that your parents had enough flexibility that this worked for them.

Shalom Victor,

I am sorry to hear about your predicament. While I am not a Shomer Shabbos Jew I can sympathize with you as some of my relatives are. Unfortunately when you signed the documents for the cruise they gave you reasons why you can't cancel or rebook. I believe that your case falls under force majeur where the cruise changed the date and you can't leave due to religious reasons.

What I can advise you is to see if your Parent's Rabbi could write a letter stating their affiliation with the Orthodox sect of Judaism. But I doubt this would have weight.

Now let me tell you that cruises are not Shomer Shabbat compliant. Here are the issues your parents will deal with.

1. All the doors are electric so I'm not sure due to the safety that they can accommodate you.

2. There will be activities going on during Shabbat.

3. While they requested Kosher meals they could forget to load them due to the date change.

4. I am not sure if there are synagogues aboard the ship.

5. The electricity runs 24/7 on the ship and its hard to turn off some devices that are needed for safety.

What I may suggest is that either your parents not keep Shabbat for that one day. Since a cruise is a time of rest and relaxation it could suffice as Shabbat. I would think the next option is that you won't be refunded your entire itinerary you may be able to apply it to a cruise leaving on Thursday but you may lose money doing this.

I hope this helps. I am not a Shomer Shabbos like I stated before so this does not affect me but I know how you feel as some of my relatives are Orthodox.

Shavuah Tov,

Daniel