Italy - First time to Europe, help us make our 1st anniversary trip extraordinary!

Dear fellow FTers,

Thanks to FT and everyone on the board, the wife and I will be going on our 1st anniversary vacation this coming April 2012. Actually, there will be many other firsts on this trip: first trip to Europe, first award travel, first time on AF, first time flying together on long-haul J, first time cruising in a cabin with a balcony, the list goes on...

I’ve combed through FT, cruisecritic.com, various travel blogs, and gathered a lot of information, but there are still missing pieces to our itinerary, and we would very much appreciate everyone’s input and advice to make this trip truly magical. Here’s the confirmed travel plans so far:

Air (all in J for 120k Delta SkyMiles) & NCL Med Cruise, UPDATED in Feb 2012 (No fees due to involuntary schedule change)

4/29: AF381 PEK-CDG
5/01: AF2104 CDG-FCO
5/12: AF1727 VCE-CDG
5/12: AF382 CDG-PEK


We could really use everyone’s input in “filling in the blanks” for what to do, where to eat, and where to stay between traveling. We know the time we allotted ourselves at each location is short, but while this will be our first European vacation, we don’t plan for it to be our last… so trying to cover some ground to see what we’d like to revisit in the future. We’re not the early, crack-of-dawn type that try to squeeze every minute of daylight… we want to see the things that “need to be seen” and make each place special… but like to let things soak in… 2 or 3 landmarks per day is enough for us. I’m a huge foodie and eating is one of the things we have no problem splurging on. However, we will always prefer finding the hidden gem mom-and-pop café with the mouth-watering pastrami over a white linen, over-serviced brasserie with Cheesecake Factory food (no offense to CF). As for lodging, looking for economy but due to time constraint, needs to be centrally located… high priority to cleanliness and noise.

City 1: Paris (4/29 – 5/1)

What to do: With only 2 nights and realistically 1.5 days in Paris, we know we won’t get to see all that much. A stop by the Eiffel Tower and perhaps the quintessential Louvre should be all the time we have before our afternoon flight on 5/1. Any other places we should try to see? Any recommendations for a memorable chocolatier?
Where to eat: What are some good eats to get the “Paris vibe” and cuisine?
Hotel: Le Fabe Hotel (http://www.lefabehotel.fr/index.php/), Montparnasse, $375 for two (2) nights.


City 2: Rome (5/1 – TBD)

I structured the air travel to allow us an open jaw between FCO and VCE on purpose: to maximize the award redemption (thanks, TPG!) and so we can experience traveling between the two cities by train. That being said, since our cruise departs Venice on 5/5, we technically have 4 nights to split between Rome and Venice. My plan was to simply split down the middle, giving each city equal time, but since we’ve not yet booked our hotels, we are still open to suggestions. What do you guys recommend… stick with 2 Rome-2 Venice, 1-3, 3-1?
What to do: We’re thinking of hitting the must-sees: the Colosseum and the Vatican/St. Peters Square, etc. Any other places we should try to see?
Where to eat: What are some good eats to get the “Roman vibe”? Notable restaurants?
Hotel: La Casa di Eddy B&B (http://www.casadieddy.it), $285 for two (2) nights.


City 3: Venice (TBD – 5/5)

What to do: All I’ve got is to visit St. Mark’s Square and to walk/float around the city. Any particular places we should try to see?
Where to eat: What are some good eats to get the “Venetian vibe”? Restaurants with authentic fare?
Hotel: Best Western Hotel Bisanzio (http://www.bisanzio.com/), $503 for two (2) nights, booked on Cap1 card, will redeem 50.3k points.
Venice card: I read that it’s a good idea to get the “Venice Card” through www.veniceconnected.com (http://www.veniceconnected.com) in advance for transportation, bathroom and museum access, and wifi. True?


Misc:

NCL Adriatic, Greece & Turkey Cruise. The ship-sponsored excursions look good, but many have recommended booking through independent companies for better value, to avoid the crowds, and, in some instances, better service. Any recommendations for what to see and independent tour companies? This cruise’s port-of-calls are: Dubrovnik – Croatia, Athens – Greece, Ephesus – Turkey, and Split – Croatia.
The cruise is scheduled to return to Venice port at 08:00 on 5/12 and our flight AZ1472 VCE-FCO is at 11:10. What is our best bet on getting to the airport on time? Updated itinerary takes us VCE-CDG direct at 3pm, so this is no longer a problem!
Rome to Venice by Train. Best place to book is on www.trenitalia.com (http://www.trenitalia.com/)?


Thanks in advance, everyone!!! :)

Paris - There is a small cafe in one of the museums overlooking the Eiffel tower that was good and seemed to have many locals present. Was recommended by our concierge.
Rome - Pantheon, Trevi fountain. Ate at a good cafe outside of pantheon but don't remember the name. Sorry Middle right cafe when facing building. Also took train to Venice. Yes, book on their train site. Very easy. When boarding the train in Rome, be aware of many non- employees that will try to grab your luggage and attempt to assist you onto the train. They will then demand a large tip.
Venice - stayed at Hilton, which is on an adjacent island with frequent free shuttles across. Great views from the Hilton.

rabtech, thanks for your valued input!

for dining in Rome, check out KatieParla.com

Don't forget 1 May is a public holiday in France ...

In Venice, stay at Locanda Orseolo; you will not be disappointed. Much more personal than a large hotel and a two minute walk from St. Mark's Square. Look it up on Tripadvisor.

Don't forget 1 May is a public holiday in France ...
Thanks for the heads up... what should we look out for/be aware of? Hard to get around that day?

In Venice, stay at Locanda Orseolo; you will not be disappointed. Much more personal than a large hotel and a two minute walk from St. Mark's Square. Look it up on Tripadvisor.
Just looked LO up, beautiful... but seems to have zero availability for 5/3~5/5 :(

do i have this right? you are flying from china to italy to do a boat cruise? forget the cruse and do italy and or france /italy.(please note, i am not a cruise guy).

"Hyatt and Starwood don’t have properties on the island " i think the danieli, the europa regina and gritti are still starwood properties. the 2 lido properties may be gone. william would know.

Misc:

NCL Adriatic, Greece & Turkey Cruise. The ship-sponsored excursions look good, but many have recommended booking through independent companies for better value, to avoid the crowds, and, in some instances, better service. Any recommendations for what to see and independent tour companies? This cruise’s port-of-calls are: Dubrovnik – Croatia, Athens – Greece, Ephesus – Turkey, and Split – Croatia.
The cruise is scheduled to return to Venice port at 08:00 on 5/12 and our flight AZ1472 VCE-FCO is at 11:10. What is our best bet on getting to the airport on time?
Rome to Venice by Train. Best place to book is on www.trenitalia.com (http://www.trenitalia.com/)?


Thanks in advance, everyone!!! :)

With ship excursions, you're protected in case of a late return. That can be crucial.

Your flight is the same day as the cruise's return? A water taxi is your best bet.

VeniceConnected is great, but BOOK IT A WEEK IN ADVANCE. I found Venice for Visitors (http://europeforvisitors.com/venice/) to be extremely useful when I went over Christmas.

"Hyatt and Starwood don’t have properties on the island " i think the danieli, the europa regina and gritti are still starwood properties. the 2 lido properties may be gone. william would know.

They are indeed still Starwood properties (and the Lido ones are gone).

I got Starwood points for my Danieli bar tab. ^

As said above, Starwood is represented in Venice, although with high end properties.

I would probably do 2-2, certainly not 3-1 in case there would be an Italian train strike or other problems in getting to Venice for your cruise. Venice can be a crowded tourist trap in the summer. Try to spend some time wandering around the neighborhoods where the real natives live and work. Check out a small church, sit in a cafe, go to a modest local restaurant.

In Paris La Defense is a modern suburb with skyscrapers. It might interest architects and city planners, but it is far from the interesting suff of Paris.

My choice for Paris is generally Hotel de Louvre because it's right there in the middle of things. La Defense is, as has been said, too far away from anything of interest. The Rive Gauche is further away from points of interest than I'd care to stay personally, but it seems close enough for most people.

do i have this right? you are flying from china to italy to do a boat cruise? forget the cruse and do italy and or france /italy.(please note, i am not a cruise guy).
I dream of the time when I could travel without having to consider # of days off... alas, we're not there yet. The Mrs. and I are quite fond of cruising, it'll be an integral part of the trip for us. But we don't plan for this to be our last trek through Europe. I imagine we'll find places we love and want to thoroughly revisit.

With ship excursions, you're protected in case of a late return. That can be crucial.

Your flight is the same day as the cruise's return? A water taxi is your best bet.

VeniceConnected is great, but BOOK IT A WEEK IN ADVANCE. I found Venice for Visitors (http://europeforvisitors.com/venice/) to be extremely useful when I went over Christmas.
We hadn't thought about the late return possibility. Sounds like we'll have to bite the bullet and go with the water taxi.

As said above, Starwood is represented in Venice, although with high end properties.

I would probably do 2-2, certainly not 3-1 in case there would be an Italian train strike or other problems in getting to Venice for your cruise. Venice can be a crowded tourist trap in the summer. Try to spend some time wandering around the neighborhoods where the real natives live and work. Check out a small church, sit in a cafe, go to a modest local restaurant.

In Paris La Defense is a modern suburb with skyscrapers. It might interest architects and city planners, but it is far from the interesting stuff of Paris.
The Starwood properties are out of our budget and we don't have enough points to redeem for them... in fact, I don't think they're even available for award stays the dates we'll be in Venice. Good point on the 2-2 vs 3-1, I think that's what we're going to end up doing. I definitely enjoy the idea of seeing the local, grassroots establishments and not just the touristy stuff... can you give any pointers where to look for these?

I stayed over Christmas at the Hotel Bellini (http://www.b4hotels.com/eng/hotels/bellini/luxury-hotel-Venice.htm), which is near the train station, and thus convenient for the vaporetto as well as transport from the airport. It was off-season, and the price ran around €150 per night including breakfast.

With that short of a time in Paris, I would not go to the Louvre, unless it has major personal significance. Unless the weather is downright awful, I would spend most of the tiime walking around. There are so many excellent neighborhoods, avenues, parks, etc. I would venture inside when you can take a quick look -- for example, when walking past Notre Dame, maybe you can venture inside for a 10-15 minute look.

Given you timetable and desire to get an overview, you may want to consider one of those 1/2 day or full day bus tours of the city.

If you do a museum, pick carefully as there are many. If I had time for only one, I would go to the d'Orsay because Impressionism is my favorite, and of course this has special significance in Paris. Obviously, your choice depends on personal taste.

Staying at La Defense would be a poor choice - it is not the 'real' Paris, just a modern cluster of government buildings.

I would have 3 nights in Rome and 1 in Venice. In reality that is just over 2 days to see Rome, and about a day to see Venice.

Rome should be quite mild, allowing you to wander about after dinner. There is much to see in Rome, and much of it is within a relatively small area. St Peters and Vatican museum would be high on the list, but do not just arrive in the morning and join the queue - that could waste a couple of hours. Colosseum and nearby Forum are also near top of list. Then there is the Pantheon, Trevi Fountain, Piazza Navona, Castel St Angelo, Spanish Steps, and many other quite fascinating buildings and piazzas.

Train to Venice will use up 5 hours or more, hotel to hotel. Time it to arrive in Venice mid afternoon, which will give time enjoy Venice in the evening, after the mass of tourists has departed. You should have most of the following day to explore Venice some more, before boarding.

I think you are fortunate that the hotel that is two minutes from Piazza San Marco was not available. While not yet peak season, you are still going there during a very busy time when there will be hordes of tourists. The epicenter is Piazza San Marco. You have to see it, but the best time is before nine, and after seven. You can see it anytime you want. But it's like staying in Disneyland. It's a tourist as it can be. There are two restaurants for fine dying, that are also pretty hard to access. The rest of the places to eat around San Marco (or around Ponte Rialto, for that matter, the other main tourist part of town) are not serving anything remotely authentic or decent. It's there idea of what they think Londoners and New Yorkers, and other tourists want to eat. The languages are all in six menus. The more languages, the worst the food. And, you can expect to pay double. The streets are packed with fake glass and trinket shops. When you leave, you will have not experienced the real Venice. Better to go and see it, especially early and late, without the crowds. But stay where the tourists aren't if you want to eat well, not pay double, and experience Venice. It's a small, easily walkable city to anywhere, or just take a boat. I would recommend staying in Castello, Dorsoduro, or Canareggio, as far away from Piazza San Marco as possible, and also, well away from the Rialto Bridge. And also, stay away from the train terminal and the Piazzale Roma. Like most cities, the train depot area is not a nice area. This is just my opinion. I live there for 2-3 months per year, for many years, and it is fairly standard advice. That said, if it's your first time, you'll love it no matter what. Besides seeing some of the museums and churches, etc, the best thing you could do to actually get to see and love Venice is, aside from morning or evening, is to every day when you go out, go the opposite way from Piazza San Marco, not towards San Marco.

You said, "I’ve narrowed it down to Best Western’s Hotel Ala, Montecarlo, Bisanzio, Sant’ Elena and independent Ca’ Angeli… thoughts?"

Sant' Elena is in Castello, a great place to stay, where Venetians actually live and work. But, Sant' Elena is too far out in Castello, too far away, just a little on the desolate side. Not much to see there, and too much of a walk to get to see and do the things you'll want to do. It's perfect during the biennale, because it's right there. But it's not a good location for a general trip to Venice.

From what I can see on the map, Hotel Bisanzio might fit your needs very well from the perspective of location. It is a bit too close to San Marco, but you not going to be that meshed in with it. The water front walk there is beautiful. You are in a place that's fairly close to San Marco, but still reasonably separate.

The Monte Carlo is very close to San Marco, a two minute walk. It is on a narrow street with tons of junk trinket shops, completely touristy, over-priced food, and because the street is narrow and you'd be in a very crowded area because of the proximity to San Marco, you'll hardly be able to walk, and will feel like a complete tourist, with every restaurant and trinket seller you pass by inviting you in to buy some fake Murano glass, or to eat. I wouldn't recommend this place. It is touristy kitsch epicenter.

Hotel Ala could work. There are a lot of people walking from San Marco to Acaddemia, or if they don't know the shorter routes, towards Rialto. This is fairly close to the main expensive shopping streets off of Piazza San Marco, but it's reasonably far away. Centrally located enough that from there, after a morning 8-9 AM coffee at Piazza San Marco, or, going to the Rialto Market at 8 AM, you can strike off walking into "true" not touristy Venice over the bridge into Dorsoduro, or head into Cannaregio. Not a bad location.

The location of Ca' Angeli seems very good indeed. First, you will not even be in the sestiere, or section of Venice that is San Marco. You'd be in Dorsoduro. You'd have to walk over the Academmia Bridge to get to see Piazza San Marco. That's pretty ideal. It's a beautiful walk, one of the few walks you can do without too much risk of getting lost. And there are plenty of "real" neighborhoods and things to do in Dorsoduro. So from here, you can easily visit San Marco, Rialto, and anywhere else. It's location on the Canal is super, if you can get them to give you a Canal view room. There is a small rio on one side of the hotel (mini-canal). If you cannot get the canal view, at least ask for a rio view. Although most of Venice is a tourist area, this would get you reasonably away from it so that you can sit outside and enjoy a coffee in a venetian cafe, watching beautiful things, without street vendors interrupting you to buy counterfeit purses, watches, etc, as happens around the more touristy areas.

None of my comments have to do with the quality of the hotels themselves. But I do know the neighborhoods and locations, and that's a pretty central part of the experience. For example, I'm 95% sure you are not going to be happy when you find out where you are if you stay at the Sant' Elena.

we have stayed it Ca' Angeli. there is only one room that fronts on the canal, i think. it is a wonderful hotel. bookde my sister in there into a quad. she loved it. not a long walk to the vaperetto stop. is the center of "downtown" Dorsoduro.

"But, Sant' Elena is too far out in Castello, too far away, just a little on the desolate side." that's a polite way of saying it.

look at hotel bucintoro. we stayed there in jan. no idea of the rates when you plan to be there. it is a recently converted pension to botique. it is beautiful, with a great view and location. right next to the arsenale stop. has a few rooms overlooking the lagoon.