European Rail Travel - Need help with Europe trains!

Hi Everyone,

Wife and I are planning a long European trip (April - May) and this will be our first time in Europe. We want to utilize the train systems for the whole trip, but we're getting a bit confused about the different systems, and best way to go about buying tickets.


Here's our plans:

London -> Paris (already booked through eurostar)
Paris -> Geneva
Geneva -> Bern
Bern -> Zurich
Zurich -> Venice
Venice -> Monaco
Monaco -> Monterosso (transfers in Milano Centrale and Ventimiglia Stazi)
Monterosso -> Pisa (transfer in La Spezia Central)
Pisa -> Rome (transfer in Firenze SMN)


Here's where our confusion lies: Please bear with me.


1. When we're looking at train fares on raileurope.com, they list a lot of the Rail Service as simply Train #. But they also have the specifics- Le Frecce, Intercity Plus, SNCF, TGV Lyria, etc.

I'm assuming the Train # is just the local regular train in whatever country you are departing from?


2. The last 3 trips involve 1-2 transfers and only allow 10 minutes to do so. Will we have enough time?

Example: Trip to Monterosso involves going from Trenialia train 9710, to Trenialia intercity plus, to SNCF ter 86036


3. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

Raileurope.com has more tickets available to purchase. But since our trip is over 2 months away, we just have to wait to purchase them.

Eurail.com and trenitalia.com are really just tools to search for trains/timetables and you have to buy tickets in person at the station? As 99% of searches do not offer pricing or buying ability.

And with sbb.ch we have to submit requests to order tickets?



Thank you in advance. Any help and clarification is greatly greatly appreciated.

1. When we're looking at train fares on raileurope.com, they list a lot of the Rail Service as simply Train #. But they also have the specifics- Le Frecce, Intercity Plus, SNCF, TGV Lyria, etc.

I'm assuming the Train # is just the local regular train in whatever country you are departing from?

Are those numbers numeric or alpha-numeric? They should be alphanumeric (for most countries), and the letters mean something, and give you some idea of what type of train to expect. For example, in Germany (which I know you're not going to) a train number prefixed "RE" means a slow-ish regional service.

2. The last 3 trips involve 1-2 transfers and only allow 10 minutes to do so. Will we have enough time?

With very few exceptions (i.e., at some very large stations) minimum connecting time is five minutes or even less, so ten minutes should normally be fine. I am saying "normally" because there may be times when a train is delayed and you miss your connection. If something is a published connection, and lots of people are depending on it, then the connecting train may well wait for you, but it can't be guaranteed. If you miss your connection you can just get on the next available train... but if that means an eight hour wait then that's not going to be much good to you!

If there is another train an hour later, and your timings are flexible (i.e., you haven't got a flight to catch at the end of the journey) then ten minutes is absolutely fine.

As for buying tickets... it seems to be accepted wisdom on this board that one should, wherever possible, buy tickets from the train operator's web site rather than raileurope.com which charges a lot more. I don't have any experience with SBB (Switzerland) but I recall friends telling me that you can book online and that it's fairly straightforward. I have booked tickets with SNCF (France) and that was quite straightforward.

On at least some of your trips you should be able to save money (often a considerable amount) by buying a non-flexible ticket online. They're like airline tickets - limited availability, first come, first served. Non-flexible tickets DO allow you to travel on a different train if you miss your connection.

Unless there are any special tickets[1] available for your journey, there is no benefit to booking Swiss domestic train fares in advance whatsoever. They are the same price on the day, and seat reservations are generally not available.

Just purchase your tickets on the day of travel (or beforehand if you prefer) from an SBB ticket window or ticket machine. They do not "sell out" - as many tickets are sold as passengers request them.

[1] They'd likely be here: http://www.sbb.ch/abos-billette/billette-schweiz/sparbillette.html - but not at the moment it seems.

Neil

Unless there are any special tickets[1] available for your journey, there is no benefit to booking Swiss domestic train fares in advance whatsoever. They are the same price on the day, and seat reservations are generally not available.

Just purchase your tickets on the day of travel (or beforehand if you prefer) from an SBB ticket window or ticket machine. They do not "sell out" - as many tickets are sold as passengers request them.

[1] They'd likely be here: http://www.sbb.ch/abos-billette/billette-schweiz/sparbillette.html - but not at the moment it seems.

Neil

The English version of the website is: http://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets/tickets-for-switzerland/supersaver-tickets.html
but as Neil says, if you're not buying supersaver tickets, you might as well buy them on the day, either from a ticket office or from a ticket machine (and these all will work in English).

Note that most European trains only open for reservations 90 days in advance (I think Eurostar is 120 days, and in some central/eastern European countries it is only 60 days). However, if you want to benefit from the non-flexible, discounted tickets that Aviatrix mentioned, you should book as close as possible to 90 days in advance.

As others have mentioned, received wisdom is that buying directly from the train operator's website is the most cost-effective way (apart from in Switzerland, where there is generally no advantage to doing this, and tickets can just be bought at the machines at the station).

Paris-Geneva can be purchased online at www.voyages-sncf.com, as a self-print ticket.

IMHO, bahn.de (http://bahn.de) is the best journey planner for looking at European rail journeys, although you still need to book tickets on the relevant operator's website (unless your journey is to/from/within Germany, in which case bahn.de can sell online tickets).

For more information, www.seat61.com is always worth a look.

Thank you guys! I think we will take all of your advice and simply buy our trips within Switzerland at the station.

As for the rest of our trips, I guess we will just have to wait for them to be available online, and yes we will be buying the non-flex. Makes a big difference for most of our trips.

Since quite a few of our trips are within Italy, I've been using www.trenitalia.com. However, 99% of the trips cannot be purchased (even when I search for trips in the next week). Anyone have any experience with trenitalia.com?



Are those numbers numeric or alpha-numeric? They should be alphanumeric (for most countries), and the letters mean something, and give you some idea of what type of train to expect. For example, in Germany (which I know you're not going to) a train number prefixed "RE" means a slow-ish regional service.


You mean alpha numeric ones like " IC# " for intercity trains? I'm more referring to the ones that simple say "Train #" and no clear indication of the specific service provider- at least on raileurope.com (they just give you a general description explaining Europe trains)




Paris-Geneva can be purchased online at www.voyages-sncf.com, as a self-print ticket.


Thank you for this! I've been looking for a site that will actually let me book this trip.

You mean alpha numeric ones like " IC# " for intercity trains? I'm more referring to the ones that simple say "Train #" and no clear indication of the specific service provider- at least on raileurope.com (they just give you a general description explaining Europe trains)

I've just looked at some of your itineraries on www.bahn.de, and the train numbers are all alphanumeric there. So if you want to look up your trains on that web site and throw some alphanumeric train numbers at us someone can probably give you some idea of what type of trains they are and what to expect.

Since quite a few of our trips are within Italy, I've been using www.trenitalia.com. However, 99% of the trips cannot be purchased (even when I search for trips in the next week). Anyone have any experience with trenitalia.com?

You must be doing something wrong. I just tested your routes and it will sell me tickets for those routes. Are you using the English or the Italian version?

You must be doing something wrong. I just tested your routes and it will sell me tickets for those routes. Are you using the English or the Italian version?

English.

Just tried some of the routes a month ahead of when I actually need them. Seems like the prices started coming out. So probably just have to wait.



Anyone have any experiences buying though Trenitalia? I have read that foreign credit cards have issues getting accepted?

Anyone have any experiences buying though Trenitalia? I have read that foreign credit cards have issues getting accepted?

I have no direct experience, but there's a lot of information at
www.seat61.com/Italy-trains.htm#How to use Trenitalia.com (http://www.seat61.com/Italy-trains.htm#How to use Trenitalia.com)

With very few exceptions (i.e., at some very large stations) minimum connecting time is five minutes or even less, so ten minutes should normally be fine. I am saying "normally" because there may be times when a train is delayed and you miss your connection. If something is a published connection, and lots of people are depending on it, then the connecting train may well wait for you, but it can't be guaranteed. If you miss your connection you can just get on the next available train... but if that means an eight hour wait then that's not going to be much good to you!

If there is another train an hour later, and your timings are flexible (i.e., you haven't got a flight to catch at the end of the journey) then ten minutes is absolutely fine.



This is only true for trains without obligatory reservations. Most high speed trains (TGV, Lyria, Eurostar, etc.) require reservations and if you miss your train, it may not be possible (due to fare class) to rebook on the next one.

This is only true for trains without obligatory reservations. Most high speed trains (TGV, Lyria, Eurostar, etc.) require reservations and if you miss your train, it may not be possible (due to fare class) to rebook on the next one.

I think your "most" is a bit of an exaggeration. Apart from the ones you mentioned I can't think of any other high-speed services that require reservations.

"Most French high-speed services" may well be correct - "most European high-speed services" is definitely not correct.

This is only true for trains without obligatory reservations. Most high speed trains (TGV, Lyria, Eurostar, etc.) require reservations and if you miss your train, it may not be possible (due to fare class) to rebook on the next one.

If it's part of an international journey, they are *required* to book you on the next one by the CIV rules. And from what I hear they will do. "Next available" means "the next one with seats", not "the next one with a technicality in relation to fares rules".

The railways generally act reasonably - they aren't Ryanair.

This might not extend to an upgrade to First Class, though. But the "fare class" within each of the two classes of travel will not make any difference.

Neil

Hello Jason 9238,

I have travelled Europe via trains on 3 occasions so far and have used the following site to book and purchase as many tickets as possible via it.

http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en

It is a great site to use and displays many options for different trains. The fares are also displayed as well so that you can take advantage of cheaper fares, the same as the Raileurope site.

Do remember to take the card that you pay online with as you must present it with your ticket when the staff do their ticket checking. They actually put it in their hand held reader as they scan your ticket. You print your ticket off at home in most cases.

Good luck and safe travels.

MIght this http://www.meleterc.com/Page512italy.html help with your Italian sectors?

Do remember to take the card that you pay online with as you must present it with your ticket when the staff do their ticket checking. They actually put it in their hand held reader as they scan your ticket. You print your ticket off at home in most cases..

Just a very small correction... the card you need is not necessarily the card that you used for payment. What you need (and what gets scanned) is the card/ID document that is stored in your online account as your account ID.

If you choose to use a credit card as your account ID, and your use that card for payment, then the two will be the same. But they don't have to be the same, and if they're different then it's important to remember that it's the account ID card you need, not the card you used for payment.

Just realised something... all this talk about buying tickets at www.bahn.de and scanning of credit cards is actually quite off-topic for this thread as none of the journeys the OP is planning to take can be bought from bahn.de

Thank you everyone for all the information and all your help.

As of now, we're just going to buy any Switzerland tickets when we're there.

For the other trips, if we can buy the longer international trips before our vacation, we'll do that. If not, then we'll just wing it when we get to Europe :p

Just thought I'd point out a few things:
1. Yes, thats generally correct. Bahn.de might be more detailed. Its generally the best search engine for all of Europe, though it doesn't have all the trains in Eastern and Southern Europe.

2. A 10 minute transfer in Italy (lower frequency, more delays) is more like the minimum while a 10 minute transfer in Switzerland (high frequency, few delays) is ample time. Indeed, it matters a lot what the plan B is.

3. As other have mentioned its likely just too soon to ticket. The booking is normally different for international and domestic tickets. In Switzerland only domestic tickets cost the same same-day as advance. International tickets are cheaper in advance.

Paris -> Geneva
Check voyages-sncf.fr (from €25 /$33)and SBB https://www.sbb.ch/ticketshop/b2c/pipSchritt_0.do (from 46 Francs /$50) for the lowest price.

Geneva -> Bern - buy from the vending machine or window same day.

Bern -> Zurich - buy from the vending machine or window same day.

Zurich -> Venice
You can't likely book online because of the train change at Milan. Book online as two bookings Zurich-Milian (SBB or Trenitalia) and Milian-Venice (Trenitalia).

Venice -> Monaco
Monaco -> Monterosso (transfers in Milano Centrale and Ventimiglia Stazi)
Not sure how you book Monaco<>Italy. You can get it at the station or on-board at the latest, obviously.

Monterosso -> Pisa (transfer in La Spezia Central)
Pisa -> Rome (transfer in Firenze SMN)
Book @ trenitalia

Thanks ofto.

We did actually book Paris-> Geneva through http://www.voyages-sncf.com/ (which ends up redirecting to raileurope.com)


Just thought I'd point out a few things:
2. A 10 minute transfer in Italy (lower frequency, more delays) is more like the minimum while a 10 minute transfer in Switzerland (high frequency, few delays) is ample time. Indeed, it matters a lot what the plan B is.


Venice -> Monaco trip:

My plan is buy one ticket from Venice to Ventimiglia and then a 2nd ticket from Ventimiglia to Monaco (cut out one short transfer)

But for Venice -> Ventimiglia
we do have to transfer at Milano Centrale and there is only 10 to do so, to transfer from Le Frecce train to Intercity Plus. Don't know if that makes a difference knowing the specific train type.

Anyone have any personal experience transferring in Italy in just 10 minutes?

Thanks ofto.

We did actually book Paris-> Geneva through http://www.voyages-sncf.com/ (which ends up redirecting to raileurope.com)




Venice -> Monaco trip:

My plan is buy one ticket from Venice to Ventimiglia and then a 2nd ticket from Ventimiglia to Monaco (cut out one short transfer)

But for Venice -> Ventimiglia
we do have to transfer at Milano Centrale and there is only 10 to do so, to transfer from Le Frecce train to Intercity Plus. Don't know if that makes a difference knowing the specific train type.

Anyone have any personal experience transferring in Italy in just 10 minutes?

That's tight. Even if the trains are exactly on time, Milano Centrale is a large station and if you are the opposite end of it from your connecting train and/or forget to walk through the train to the front before arriving, you would take much of that just to walk from train A to train B. It only needs a few minutes' delay and you've missed the connection. I wouldn't risk it.

That's tight. Even if the trains are exactly on time, Milano Centrale is a large station and if you are the opposite end of it from your connecting train and/or forget to walk through the train to the front before arriving, you would take much of that just to walk from train A to train B. It only needs a few minutes' delay and you've missed the connection. I wouldn't risk it.

Depends what the alternative is. I usually prefer a connecting time of about half an hour, because it gives me time to wander around a bit, get food if I want to etc. But often in mainland Europe, trains run to low frequencies (say every 2 hours) but with planned connections of 5-10 minutes. In that case, 5-10 minutes is the preference, because waiting around for 2 hours is unduly long.

The 59 minute connections southbound at Crewe from Scotland to Milton Keynes grate particularly (there isn't a lot to do in the station, and a walk to town and back doesn't leave much time over).

Unless of course you want a wander around the city. More worth it in Milan than Crewe :)

Neil

I strongly recommend more than 30 mins for a connection at Milan Central. The platforms are L O N G and there are plenty of them! I've often had to run for a connection to Venice when arriving from Zurich, simply because there are lots of people and you need to find out where your connecting train is leaving from!

En route delays, especially when crossing land borders can make even a seemingly reasonable connecting time unworkable!

hello,
In france (and europe?) You cannot book a train ticket 3 month before departure. If you outside europe, you cannot book directlty to http://www.voyages-sncf.com/ or other local web site. You must buy with rail europe world website (http://www.raileurope-world.com)
Arnaud

hello,
In france (and europe?) You cannot book a train ticket 3 month before departure. If you outside europe, you cannot book directlty to http://www.voyages-sncf.com/ or other local web site. You must buy with rail europe world website (http://www.raileurope-world.com)
Arnaud

welcome to flyertalk, xpander :)

in fact, you can! if you print out your TGV ticket, it works even from outside Europe. and these tickets are alot cheaper! or chose pick up at rail station - works, too. (but not in ticket machines - depends on your card. just go to any counter)

hello,
In france (and europe?) You cannot book a train ticket 3 month before departure. If you outside europe, you cannot book directlty to http://www.voyages-sncf.com/ or other local web site. You must buy with rail europe world website (http://www.raileurope-world.com)
Arnaud

Incorrect.

Raileurope-world seems to simply be a travel agent who charges a lot more $$ for the same tickets (and I can't say that it's a reputable one as it's the first time I've heard of them).

Voyages-sncf will let you print out your TGV ticket, so if it takes your card, you will not have any problems buying and using tickets (and you'll save money).

hello,
In france (and europe?) You cannot book a train ticket 3 month before departure.

This is correct (assuming you mean "until 3 months before departure"). Reservations for trains in Europe generally open 3 months in advance (4 months for Eurostar; 2 months for some operators in central/eastern Europe).


Raileurope-world seems to simply be a travel agent who charges a lot more $$ for the same tickets (and I can't say that it's a reputable one as it's the first time I've heard of them).

There's an interesting explanation of Rail Europe here (http://www.raileurope-world.com/about-us-23/?page=rubrique&id_rubrique=23). "Rail Europe" apparently is a joint ticketing agency set up by SNCF/SBB, and www.raileurope-world.com is their global site.

In the past, I've seen their USA site www.raileurope.com get criticised, as it reportedly didn't offer discounted, book in advance fares, but only the more expensive full-fare options. (However, checking it just now, it does seem to offer discounted, book in advance fares, on both Eurostars and TGVs, so maybe that problem has been fixed).


If you are outside Europe, you cannot book directly to http://www.voyages-sncf.com/ or other local web site. You must buy with rail europe world website (http://www.raileurope-world.com)
Arnaud
This is not entirely correct. If you enter your country of residence on www.voyages-sncf.com, www.tgv-europe.com or www.raileurope-world.com, then it may try to route you to what it thinks is the 'right' site for you - and you might then have problems booking. However, if you use www.voyages-sncf.com and keep it in on the proper country setting (ie: either France, or the country where your journey is starting), then it should still let you book, regardless of where in the world you're connecting to the internet. I have certainly managed to book this way myself*. However, I was using a credit card issued in elsewhere Europe - so maybe it detects non-European issued credit cards, and blocks those - but I haven't seen this reported anywhere.

As chrissxb said, you may have to choose a self-print, or collect on departure ticket option - as requesting the ticket to be posted to your (non-Europe) address may result in you being re-directed back to a raileurope site.

Note also that although www.voyages-sncf.com, www.tgv-europe.com, www.raileurope.co.uk, etc will sell tickets for a wide range of journeys in Europe (eg Aachen to Zagreb), they will generally only offer discounted, book in advance tickets on routes affiliated to SNCF (eg: TGVs, eurostar, and I think most other trains starting/ending in France). For other journeys (such as Aachen to Zagreb), it's almost certainly cheaper to book a ticket on the relevant train operator's own website, (or sometimes multiple tickets across multiple sites; or, in cases where discounted book in advance tickets aren't available, such as many trains in central/eastern Europe, then at the train station).

There's further discussion of all this at: www.seat61.com/Europe-train-tickets.htm (http://www.seat61.com/Europe-train-tickets.htm) (although that page says that www.raileurope.com doesn't offer discounted book in advance tickets, which may now be incorrect).

* However, internet connections from some countries in Africa (notably Nigeria) are blocked from booking on www.voyages-sncf.com, www.raileurope.co.uk and www.eurostar.com, presumably for fraud-control reasons. Although www.voyages-sncf.com indicates this upfront (it simply won't display any timetable information, although doesn't say why), www.raileurope.co.uk and www.eurostar.com let you get half-way through the booking process, and then hang without giving any explanation.

That's tight. Even if the trains are exactly on time, Milano Centrale is a large station and if you are the opposite end of it from your connecting train and/or forget to walk through the train to the front before arriving, you would take much of that just to walk from train A to train B. It only needs a few minutes' delay and you've missed the connection. I wouldn't risk it.

Thank you BAZZ, pacer142, and Alsacienne

we've decided to split up the trip and buy each leg separately to give us more transfer time. But of course going up from 10 minute transfers, it's now 1 hour. But we'd rather be bored than miss our train. :)