China - 3rd time in China - time for the Western part!

hey FTers!

Just sitting on a couch on a snowy day in Warsaw and thinking about my October vacations in China. Reading FT, other sites, talking to my Chinese friends - usual preparation mode :)

I'm in my 30ties, looking for a decent experience during vacations. So probably no dorms for overnight nor hard-seater trains for 24h legs. But also far from Intercontinentals and First Classes of this world (unless Lufthansa upgrades for free, again).

It will be my 3rd time in PRC, so I'm pretty aware of basic "traveler code", I rather avoid BJ & SH - been there. Travelled across the country (Datong/Guilin/Pingyao/Xi'an/Guangzhou/Suzhou/HK/Macau). I know a little bit of Mandarin as well. What I'm probably not prepared for yet is CNY being 70% more expensive in PLN terms than 4 years ago :(

My basic plan is to start in Singapore (2nd week of October), stay there for 4 days, fly to mainland China and focus on:
- Kunming (good connection from SIN), stay there 2-3 days
- fly to Lhasa, stay 3 days
- take a train to Xining (~2days), stay there for 2 days
- take a train/plane to Chengdu, stay 3 days,
- make 1 day trip to Chongqing (The Dam)
- go back to PL via PEK

again, just a draft, based on what I've been hearing and reading so far. Would you be able to help me and let me know:
- is above a fair set of places to see within ~3 weeks period?
- is it a right order - shall we start somewhere else or change routing to save time/costs/troubles?
- am I missing any MUST-GO place in that area or am I planning NO-GO site?
- Tibet: I'm not an activist, just so want to see it - is there anything I need to do when applying for visa?
- Tibet: how hard is to get the tickets for the train to/from Lhasa these days? What would be the best practice?
- Trains: I've been told there's new booking system - any experience? (my previous trip had that little pain with train tickets. We also went there during Golden Week...)

Your comments / suggestions will be highly helpful. I'll continue browsing internet but will definitely use your guidance when creating more detailed/solid itinerary

谢谢！
mfk

Do you want to do a several day Three Gorges cruise?

Do you want to do a several day Three Gorges cruise?

hey, good question, probably several days on a boat won't make my GF happy, but whole one day there, maybe two is definitely worth considering. What do you think would be the best option?

thx in advance!
mfk

I am not sure whether you can free and easy in Lhasa but I am sure a pro here will answer that.

Previously, when I researched on going, only on organised tours and you need an agency to help you with the tibet special permit on top of your regular Chinese Visa.

From Kunming, I am surprised that you have not decided to head to Lijiang or Dali.

Since you are travelling with your girlfriend, why not Jiuzhaigou after you visit Chengdu? To me, Jiuzhaigou is amazing, blessed with gorgeous scenery.

my opinions.

From Kunming, I am surprised that you have not decided to head to Lijiang or Dali.
great idea, I wasn't even aware that it's worth a try :) (thank you FT!). How much time do you think we would need to visit both places and see them well. We're pretty active walkers BTW


Since you are travelling with your girlfriend, why not Jiuzhaigou after you visit Chengdu? To me, Jiuzhaigou is amazing, blessed with gorgeous scenery.

Same story - thanks a ton for proposing. How would you suggest to get in&out? Do you think that we could take a train from Chengdu through Jiuzhaigou to Xining? Or is it rather fly-in/fly-out to/from Chengdu? Again, how much time in your opinion we'd need there to reasonably get a feeling of that place?

Thanks a ton!
mfk

Frankly speaking, your outline plan is partly lackluster and partly unrealistic. A woeful missing of opportunities for 3 weeks (well 2+ after the Singapore days are accounted for). There are two critical factors you need to get squared away, before getting into any more details and before worrying about things like train tickets and Chinese visas.

1) Tibet. Given the cost and hassle of accessing the place, it's not a good idea to just go to Lhasa for 3 days. First of all, Lhasa has the Potala but the main attractions of Tibet are elsewhere, and Lhasa is getting quite Han Chinesified. Secondly, you may be one of those people that is wiped out with altitude sickness for a day or so and unable to do much of anything. Thirdly, you MUST have a prearranged tour and guide in order to get the Tibet Travel Permit (which is not a visa)--although in Lhasa, wandering about the city with no guide is tolerated, you cannot do so outside the city, and without the guide, you will not be able to access inside sights including the Potala. There is a reason that most people who decide Tibet is a must-do, commit and put aside at least 7-8 days to do so. You can reduce costs a little if you are willing to join up with others (per person price goes down), but making that happen is not always logistically feasible.

I think you need to do some more homework and decide whether this is in your budget. Tibet is one of the most costly destinations to visit in Asia now, so for 2 people for 7-8 days, expect to spend at least USD 1500-2000 plus transport getting there, and that's a lower-end plan.

If you want to see Tibetans and culture without the hassle and expense and without need for guide, just avoid the TAR itself (Tibet Autonomous Region) and find the real thing in the far western areas of Sichuan province and upper Yunnan as well. Accessible from back door via Yunnan or from Chengdu.


2) The Three Gorges Dam. Um, geography lesson is in order. The Dam is not anywhere near Chongqing. You don't go to Chongqing for one day to "see the dam" and I'm not sure how you got that impression. If you just want to see the Dam, you should get to Yichang (probably by flight to save time) and access from there, then move on. Chongqing is merely the access point for the Yangtze boat trip, but that's a commitment of at least 3 days downstream, and your choice of boat is either cheap/grubby Chinese or luxury expensive foreign-tourist oriented boat. If you ask most experienced Old China hands, their opinions run about 90% against this trip, as it generally gets monotonous after the first half day. On an overall trip of 3 weeks, you can spend 3-4 days in far better ways. But it's up to you.

Additional:

If you search a couple of pages or so down, you'll find a thread I did on a recent Sichuan/Yunnan trip that has a lot of posts with details. That might give you some ideas on places, costing, logistics.

Kunming as your entrance point to China is a good idea.

For exiting China, you might want to look into flight options from western China, particularly Urumqi back to Europe. Places like Xining and Chengdu have flight to Urumqi so the domestic China part isn't an issue. This sort of routing may be worth it, if you don't need to go back via Beijing. Not sure what comparative pricing might be.

Why Xining? Are you just determined to take the Tibet-China railway? Again, if Tibet is the single biggest priority of this trip, I think you'll find the cost and logistics will make a lot of other options in Yunnan and situation fall right off the table, for lack of time. If either or both Tibet and Yangtze drop off, then a lot of things become possible.

Hey there,
thanks for a tough but a very valuable feedback - appreciated!

Again, if Tibet is the single biggest priority of this trip, I think you'll find the cost and logistics will make a lot of other options in Yunnan and situation fall right off the table, for lack of time. If either or both Tibet and Yangtze drop off, then a lot of things become possible.
Point taken. While Tibet is basically THE deciding factor for this trip (we let it go last time). Yangtze (d***, I was so good at geography once!) was a placeholder and given your detailed feedback I have just killed that part. Thank you


1) Tibet. Given the cost and hassle of accessing the place, it's not a good idea to just go to Lhasa for 3 days. First of all, Lhasa has the Potala but the main attractions of Tibet are elsewhere, and Lhasa is getting quite Han Chinesified. Secondly, you may be one of those people that is wiped out with altitude sickness for a day or so and unable to do much of anything. Thirdly, you MUST have a prearranged tour and guide in order to get the Tibet Travel Permit (which is not a visa)--although in Lhasa, wandering about the city with no guide is tolerated, you cannot do so outside the city, and without the guide, you will not be able to access inside sights including the Potala. There is a reason that most people who decide Tibet is a must-do, commit and put aside at least 7-8 days to do so. You can reduce costs a little if you are willing to join up with others (per person price goes down), but making that happen is not always logistically feasible.
I think you need to do some more homework and decide whether this is in your budget. Tibet is one of the most costly destinations to visit in Asia now, so for 2 people for 7-8 days, expect to spend at least USD 1500-2000 plus transport getting there, and that's a lower-end plan.


Why Xining? Are you just determined to take the Tibet-China railway?


Point taken. While cost of ~$1k per head should be OK I don't think I will be able to negotiate w/ GF anything more than a week incl. train transportation. Will do some further reading.
One question though: would you be able to recommend any good agency to work on the tour/guide?
Yes, train is a must :) Let's call it a hobby. I've seen somewhere (wikitravel?) a note that Xining is worth visitng. Will review/reconsider/reprioritize.

Kunming as your entrance point to China is a good idea.
Thanks, however I'm not sure if it is worth spending some time there or shall I plan for Lijiang or Dali right away?

For exiting China, you might want to look into flight options from western China, particularly Urumqi back to Europe. Places like Xining and Chengdu have flight to Urumqi so the domestic China part isn't an issue. This sort of routing may be worth it, if you don't need to go back via Beijing. Not sure what comparative pricing might be.
I'm fully aware that flying from there to EU via PEK/PVG doesn't make too much sense time-wise BUT I will be travelling on Lufthansa award tickets and I'm kind of little limited in that respect.

Thanks again
mfk

OK Lufthansa--then yes, you'll probably be going through PEK.

For getting to Lijiang or Dali, most people are routing through Kunming anyway since that's the easiest and most frequent access. So that might still fit with your original idea.

Don't take my "tough love" advice personally. ;) But it's best to lay it on the line while you've still got plenty of time to do your research and fix your priorities.

If Tibet is a must do, one idea you may wish to try (again, refer to my Sichuan/Yunnan trip post) is routing Kunming-Dali-Lijiang-Tiger Leaping Gorge-Zhongdian then flying to Lhasa from there (that overland route from Yunnan is forbidden to foreigners and at any rate, you wouldn't have time). This helps a lot with the altitude sickness issue as you're moving steadily upwards rather than a sudden shock to the system. But with this + a week in Tibet + train to Xining + flying to PEK for your homeward, that would pretty much absorb your China time. Leaving nothing for Chengdu or Jiuzhaigou.

You might want to cut that Singapore stop to 3 days max and free up an extra day. For that matter, is Singapore a must-include or is it also dispensable? Have you cut your award tickets already or still yet to book?

Don't take my "tough love" advice personally. ;)
:) zero worries - working with Israeli engineers daily (with all respect here!), so I got used to that kind of communication. Much more valuble than a soft and contentless ways!


If Tibet is a must do, one idea you may wish to try (again, refer to my Sichuan/Yunnan trip post) is routing Kunming-Dali-Lijiang-Tiger Leaping Gorge-Zhongdian then flying to Lhasa from there (that overland route from Yunnan is forbidden to foreigners and at any rate, you wouldn't have time). This helps a lot with the altitude sickness issue as you're moving steadily upwards rather than a sudden shock to the system. But with this + a week in Tibet + train to Xining + flying to PEK for your homeward, that would pretty much absorb your China time.
Leaving nothing for Chengdu or Jiuzhaigou.

You might want to cut that Singapore stop to 3 days max and free up an extra day. For that matter, is Singapore a must-include or is it also dispensable? Have you cut your award tickets already or still yet to book?

That's a good point - for over a year we planned to visit PRC while Singapore was just added recently - we have a friend there and it was a fair opportunity to visit him.

Since we will be able to go to SIN year or so later (stopover to Australia / New Zealand / Indonesia) we can both cut it by a day OR drop completely. Do you think that by cutting SIN to 3 days (all other items unchanged) would allow us to get to Chengdu for a reasonable amount of time?

Award tickets: planned to book them within the next 3-4 weeks

thanks again!
mfk

:) zero worries - working with Israeli engineers daily (with all respect here!), so I got used to that kind of communication. Much more valuble than a soft and contentless ways!



That's a good point - for over a year we planned to visit PRC while Singapore was just added recently - we have a friend there and it was a fair opportunity to visit him.

Since we will be able to go to SIN year or so later (stopover to Australia / New Zealand / Indonesia) we can both cut it by a day OR drop completely. Do you think that by cutting SIN to 3 days (all other items unchanged) would allow us to get to Chengdu for a reasonable amount of time?
Award tickets: planned to book them within the next 3-4 weeks

thanks again!
mfk

If Tibet is a given, then no, I don't think it gives you enough time to do Chengdu + area and particularly if you are trying to fit in Jiuzhaigou. Even flying around a lot. You may have to choose between the Chengdu region or places in Yunnan. If you drop Singapore completely and just round-trip from Europe to China, then yes, I think you could manage it.

Can you add another 5-10 days to this trip?

Have you thought about the real west--Urumqi and Kashi? Very, very different. Worth it (along with Tibet) for an understanding of the Han mis-understanding of religion. And a contrast to the "happy" minorities.

great idea, I wasn't even aware that it's worth a try :) (thank you FT!). How much time do you think we would need to visit both places and see them well. We're pretty active walkers BTWI'd suggest at least 2 full days in Lijiang -- one for Lijiang itself and one for the surrounding the historical towns, though I think we spent 5 or 6 days without running out of things to see or do. We spent only one day in Dali, but thought it was enough.

OP, not sure if you've dropped the Tibet idea or not...

jiejie's post is spot on. Lots of hassle. But if you want to go, you likely can still find a group tour to get your in (via your permit) and then wander around town by yourself. Just keep in mind there's only a handful of tourist places to go, likely can be done in 2-3 days.

My recommendation on Tibet is it's not just worth it to visit Lhasa, go to Everest or something like that then it's more worth it. Otherwise lots of cost to get there.

If you want to see Tibet and ride the Tibet-Qinghai railroad, then do it. Just save the rest of the itinerary for another time and spend all your time in Tibet only.

If you want to see Tibet and ride the Tibet-Qinghai railroad, then do it. Just save the rest of the itinerary for another time and spend all your time in Tibet only.

+1

If you want to see Tibet and ride the Tibet-Qinghai railroad, then do it. Just save the rest of the itinerary for another time and spend all your time in Tibet only.

From a logistics standpoint that makes sense as long as their interest in Tibet runs that deep. However, from a budget standpoint, the cost of 2 weeks in Tibet may be an eye-opener, especially on a "group trip" comprised of only two people.

From a logistics standpoint that makes sense as long as their interest in Tibet runs that deep. However, from a budget standpoint, the cost of 2 weeks in Tibet may be an eye-opener, especially on a "group trip" comprised of only two people.

I was tempted to push him towards a non Tibet plan (Xinjiang, Gansu, Sichuan, and Yunnan) due to the bang-for-the-buck thing, but since he seems set on Tibet, I will not stand in his way.

Thanks all,

If you drop Singapore completely and just round-trip from Europe to China, then yes, I think you could manage it.

Can you add another 5-10 days to this trip?

I'm getting very close to dropping Singapore completely. Sounds like Yunnan / TAR / Sichuan focus works much better.

3 weeks is a maximum I'm afraid - my employer is not too used to longer vacations than that.

OP, not sure if you've dropped the Tibet idea or not... jiejie's post is spot on. Lots of hassle. But if you want to go, you likely can still find a group tour to get your in (via your permit) and then wander around town by yourself. Just keep in mind there's only a handful of tourist places to go, likely can be done in 2-3 days.
My recommendation on Tibet is it's not just worth it to visit Lhasa, go to Everest or something like that then it's more worth it. Otherwise lots of cost to get there.
If you want to see Tibet and ride the Tibet-Qinghai railroad, then do it. Just save the rest of the itinerary for another time and spend all your time in Tibet only.

Tibet is still on the agenda, I understand from jiejie's posts that 7 days is a sheer minimum, lots of stuff outside Lhasa. Will try to do some smart compromise. And you're probably right - what I'm looking for is a touch of Lhasa and Tibet-Qinghai railroad focus primarily. And yes, I'm aware of potential costs just for those few days.

Thanks!
mfk

If you want to see Tibet and ride the Tibet-Qinghai railroad, then do it. Just save the rest of the itinerary for another time and spend all your time in Tibet only.

OP, sounds like you're still game for the trip to Tibet. Have a blast, it was a highlight (though expensive one) for me in Tibet.

The railroad to Qinghai is not to be missed! Make sure you do your best to get a soft sleeper (4 person per car), sometimes they sell out. Bring your camera too.

Don't forget, if you want to check bags you have to do it at the train station the day before.

How about starting from Qinghai?

Fly to Xining (2275 m above sea level - about the height of Mexico, and higher than Kunming at 1892 m). A province capital, so reasonable number of flights;

continue to Kukunor. Still Qinghai, still no Tibet, still no Tibet Travel Permit, still no guide on your heels and your payroll... some Tibetan culture around, as I understand, pretty nature, and the lake altitude is 3205 m. Around 100 km from Xining, and the railway follows the north shore of the lake.

spend some days and nights there, roam the land, engage in physical activities like sightseeing and applying for membership of Two Mile High Club, houses with floors and ground level 13+ metres above lake should easily be found

Then catch some of the trains (every single one of them overnight, travelling within a few hours) at, say, Delhi (2900 m above sea level) and go to the real Tibet. Lhasa, at 3600 m, is just 400 m above Kukunor, so you can start using your Tibet Travel Permit and guide soon, and you have already seen a part of Tibetan culture.

And if you have vacation time left over out of the week and a half or two spent in Qinghai and Tibet combined, you could fly out of Lhasa to some other destination in China (Urumqi? Kunming? Chongqing?).

Any flaws in this?

How about starting from Qinghai?

Fly to Xining (2275 m above sea level - about the height of Mexico, and higher than Kunming at 1892 m). A province capital, so reasonable number of flights;

continue to Kukunor. Still Qinghai, still no Tibet, still no Tibet Travel Permit, still no guide on your heels and your payroll... some Tibetan culture around, as I understand, pretty nature, and the lake altitude is 3205 m. Around 100 km from Xining, and the railway follows the north shore of the lake.

spend some days and nights there, roam the land, engage in physical activities like sightseeing and applying for membership of Two Mile High Club, houses with floors and ground level 13+ metres above lake should easily be found

Then catch some of the trains (every single one of them overnight, travelling within a few hours) at, say, Delhi (2900 m above sea level) and go to the real Tibet. Lhasa, at 3600 m, is just 400 m above Kukunor, so you can start using your Tibet Travel Permit and guide soon, and you have already seen a part of Tibetan culture.

And if you have vacation time left over out of the week and a half or two spent in Qinghai and Tibet combined, you could fly out of Lhasa to some other destination in China (Urumqi? Kunming? Chongqing?).

Any flaws in this?

Yes, big one. Getting a train ticket into Tibet. Delingha (Delhi) wouldn't have much or any allocation of sleepers, so likelihood of being able to get on there is slim and none unless you could cadge a hard seat (not recommended). Golmud further up the line is a somewhat better possibility but sleepers also difficult and fewer agencies to help out with logistics than at Xining. Flight from Xining-Lhasa is possible but timing would have to be planned carefully.

In short, going this direction is more of a problem than starting in Lhasa and taking the train outbound. OP should stick with original (downhill/northbound) direction if he wants to take this train.

If catching a train at Delingha is hard, then how about returning from Kukunor to Xining and catching a train there? At least one of the trains to Lhasa starts from Xining (others come from further away), it is just 100 km or so to backtrack, and the soft sleeper train tickets to Lhasa might be purchased in advance before starting the excursion to Kukunor?

I think at this point, Tibet sounds like a Go, and the OP needs to recalibrate priorities and check budget, and particularly decide 1) How long for Tibet itself? and 2) What are the second and third most important priority places? Once these are re-set, we can help with more advice on optimum linkages and any secondary stops and also help craft the logistics.

Michal, the ball is back in your court now!

Getting train ticket into Tibet is difficult. Besides, train ride out of Tibet is much nicer (views, time of day, etc).

Michal, the ball is back in your court now!

It definitely is! Thanks jiejie and all for valuable comments - current idea is nowhere near my first post :) Thank heavens.

So looks like.
A. No Singapore
B. Lijiang, Dali, Kuoming, Lhasa, Xining (+ sourroundings of those places)
C. I SO WANT TO GO TO Chengdu - either at the start or end of my trip
D. I'm fairly drowned in guides/wikitravels/maps right now
E. W/O your 50+pages long post jiejie it would be impossible :)
F. Arrival to China via PEK/HKG (limited to award tickets)
G. Talking to travel agency (owned by my Mandarin school) on possibilities in Tibet - this will shape the rest.
H. Will post my findings and a solid/verified proposal in a week or two - hope you won't mind having a second look!

Have a great day all and thanks again
mfk

It definitely is! Thanks jiejie and all for valuable comments - current idea is nowhere near my first post :) Thank heavens.

So looks like.
A. No Singapore
B. Lijiang, Dali, Kuoming, Lhasa, Xining (+ sourroundings of those places)
C. I SO WANT TO GO TO Chengdu - either at the start or end of my trip
D. I'm fairly drowned in guides/wikitravels/maps right now
E. W/O your 50+pages long post jiejie it would be impossible :)
F. Arrival to China via PEK/HKG (limited to award tickets)
G. Talking to travel agency (owned by my Mandarin school) on possibilities in Tibet - this will shape the rest.
H. Will post my findings and a solid/verified proposal in a week or two - hope you won't mind having a second look!

Have a great day all and thanks again
mfk

We will await your next rendition with anticipation. Try an open jaws award into HKG and out of PEK. Then we can get you from HKG-KMG-through Yunnan and into Tibet, then rail to Xining. Placement of Chengdu could be either between Yunnan (Lijiang/Zhongdian) and Tibet. Or after Xining. Ending in PEK. That's if it fits in your time frame, given Tibet needs. Be specific about what you want to see in the Chengdu area. Cheers.

Most flights to Lhasa depart from Chengdu, so clearly you should put it in your itinerary just before flying into Tibet.

Most flights to Lhasa depart from Chengdu, so clearly you should put it in your itinerary just before flying into Tibet.

Well, maybe not that clearly. There's also the little-known Zhongdian-Lhasa flight option, which if he is planning to do Kunming-Dali-Lijiang, is a realistic possibility and has the advantage over Chengdu of preacclimating at altitude nearly as high as Lhasa. Again, it depends on his secondary priorities after Tibet and whether Yunnan is in or out.

If a choice was forced on me between the two due to time limitations, I'd do Yunnan in a heartbeat over Chengdu region. But maybe both are possible as long as some domestic China flights are in the budget. If OP is planning on LH award ticket, then having the endpoint as CTU rather than PEK (PEK might be needed as a connection point on the intl outbound to Europe) could be cost-effective. CTU is an Air China hub. Or perhaps as the original destination, and start the trip from there.

Well, maybe not that clearly. There's also the little-known Zhongdian-Lhasa flight option, which if he is planning to do Kunming-Dali-Lijiang, is a realistic possibility and has the advantage over Chengdu of preacclimating at altitude nearly as high as Lhasa.

feeyo.com isn't working for me today, but IIRC the DIG-LXA flight only operates a couple of days a week - M/F, I think. Makes it a lot harder to plan around vs. multiple flights a day CTU-LXA.

feeyo.com isn't working for me today, but IIRC the DIG-LXA flight only operates a couple of days a week - M/F, I think. Makes it a lot harder to plan around vs. multiple flights a day CTU-LXA.

I think it's pretty much gone to a daily now except maybe in winter low season.

{RE: Kunming} Thanks, however I'm not sure if it is worth spending some time there or shall I plan for Lijiang or Dali right away?

mfk

If you are strictly in Kunming for sighseeing, then 1 day should be plenty. While you are there, Lijiang and Dali are not far away, and have much more to offer.

My added: {RE: Kunming}

hey FTes,

just to let you know that I'm working hard to get my itinerary created (almost there). Found a very proactive agency and I think we're about to finish shortly.

Since we're constrained on time, we decided to exchange several train/bus connections with flights (I know, no big presentes for Christmas this year ...) so we might see almost all we wanted (exc. Chongqing). Incl Mt Everest :)

Again, thanks again for your help and advise so far (it significantly influenced itinerary around Kunming for example), will post draft itinerary soon.

have a great weekend
mfk

hey FTers

long time no speak, huh? I've been pretty busy lately with planning of that trip, got some help from the travel agent who supports my mates in SH. I am fully aware that I'm cutting corners here and there but that was a consious choice.

So, here it is:
--
Day 1: Arrival to SH, visiting friends

Day 2: Shanghai/Kunming
West hill and Dianchi Lake,Qiongzhu Monastery.

Day 3: Kunming
Stone forest, Yuantong Temple and Yunnan Museum (thank you JIEJIE).

Day 4: Kunming/Dali
Wase village,Haiyin Village,Shuanglang village.

Day 5: Dali
Xizhou market , Cangshan Mountain, Three pagodas of Chong sheng.

Day 6: Dali/Lijiang/Shuhe
Shuhe Ancient Town, free time

Day 7: Lijiang
Yufeng Monastery ,Baisha Fresco and Village, Watching "Impression Lijiang" at the foot of Jade Snow Mountain (optional),
Black Dragon Pond, Dongba Cultural Museum and Baisha Village.

Day 8: Lijiang/Tiger Leaping Gorges Trekking
Tiger Leaping Gorge town, pass by and sightseeing at the
1st bend of Yangtse River and Stone Drum. Trekking (around 4-5hrs).

Day 9: Trekking/Zhongdian (elev 3200m)
Trekking 2hrs for Walnut garden, Zhongdian, Songtsam Monastery

Day 10: Zhongdian/Lhasa (elev 3600m）
Flight and arrival. Day for adjustment

Day 11: Lhasa
Day for adjustment + light visiting of Potala Palace, Jokhang Monastery and Norbulingka.

Dah 12: Lhasa/Namtso Lake
Full day excursion at Namtso Lake

Day 13: Namstco Lake/Lhasa/Shigatse
Gyantse(3980m) / Shigatse (3900m), Yamdrok-tso Lake(4488m).
Pelkhor chode Monastery Gyantse till Shigatse.

Day 14: Shigatse/Rongphu Monastery/EBC (5150m) /Rongphu Monastery

Day 15: EBC/Shigatse

Day 16: Shigatse/Lhasa
Tashilunpo Monastery / local market

Day 17/18: Lhasa/Chengdu
Qinghai-Tibet Train

Day 19: Chengdu(elev500)
Panda Breeding Center, Emeishan mountain.

Day 20: Emeishan/Leshan/Chengdu
Chengdu, Leshan Giant Budda, free time for business (yep, having some factories there)

Day 21: Chengdu>Beijijng
Visiting friends and calming down :)

Day 22: BJ>EU
LX197 Beijing-Zurich
--

I have a question though: is there any item above which in your opinion is a "suicidal plan" or are we in a good shape? Have I been proposed to visit any ultra-touristy place which is not worth it?

Your feedback is (as usual) more then welcome
best from windy Warsaw!
mfk

Much much better! Now this is a good trip plan! ^ The overall layout and general time span works mostly OK, but a little fine tuning for realities of geography and logistics in localized areas, and some misc comments:

Day 3: Get a really early start to the Stone Forest so you are there as soon as you can get in. Try to get back to Kunming by 2 pm so you can get the other two things in--should be doable. Make sure you get the right museum--the Nationalities Museum is what you want, near the lake and across from the silly Nationalities Village. There's also a Provincial Museum in downtown Kunming but given a choice, do the Nationalities Museum. I'd prioritize the Museum above the Pagoda, which also is open until a bit later in the day.

Day 4: Recommend you take an early express bus Kunming-Dali, takes 4 hours and is faster than train. Make sure you get the right bus station, I think Dali-bounds are now leaving from West Bus Station. And know that most buses go to Xiaguan (New Dali) from whence you will still have a little journey to Old Dali which I assume is your target and where you will stay.

Days 6 and 7 are messed up. Shuhe goes with Baisha Village and Frescoes and Yufeng Monastery due to proximity and commonality of the road access. Jade Dragon Snow mountain access and Impressions Lijiang Show are by a different road out of Lijiang. With an 8:00 start out of Dali and arrival in Lijiang/Shuhe by mid to late-morning (doable) of Day 6, you can see all that Shuhe-Baisha-Yufeng stuff during the rest of the day, and return to Shuhe or Lijiang by evening. Then Day 7, do anything out at JDSM then Lijiang town including the Black Dragon Pool, Dongba museum, etc. (or vice versa depending on show times and weather).

Day 8-9. Day 8: I'd get up the road early and not tarry too long at Shigu/First bend of Yangtze--this is actually skippable (more hyped than it's worth). My advice is get to Qiaotou, dump luggage at Janes, then start trekking by 10-11 am if you can, so you have the bulk of it over with by 16:00-ish, allowing for plenty of time to rest and savor the views on the way. For Day 9 to work out, you need to get to Zhongdian by about 2 pm which means you need to leave Qiaotou by about noon. Backtracking, that means leaving the Middle Gorge Area at 11:30 so really the balance of your trekking needs to start by 8:00 am that morning and preferably earlier. If you're at Halfway Guesthouse (which is actually more than 1/2way) the night before, then you should be OK. Once you get to the main outlet of the Upper Trail to the Middle Gorge road (near Tina's), I'm not sure why you need to walk the extra from Tina's to Walnut Garden, just eats up time for diminishing returns. Find some more internet trekker comments on this last segment before you commit to it. IMO, better to spend it getting back to Qiaotou so you can get bus or car to Zhongdian. Remember to include waiting time for a bus in Qiaotou if that's your method.

Day 17-18: Seriously consider only booking the train from Lhasa to Xining, then flying from Xining to Chengdu. This will do a few things for you: 1) allow you more choice of trains since more are going to Xining than all the way to Chengdu. 2) Allow you to start the journey first thing in the morning to maximize the scenic daylight hours. The Chengdu continuous T train usually leaves 12-1 pm so only 1/2 day in daylight, missing a lot of the good stuff. 3) The K Trains leaving Lhasa about 8 in the morning arrives in Xining not quite 24 hours later, which maximizes possibilities for either plane flights out to Chengdu, or allows for a bit of sightseeing filler time in Xining before an afternoon plane; 4) It is better to spend only 24 hours on the train rather than 43 no matter how soft your sleeper is. 5) There's nothing particularly glorious about the Xining-Chengdu part of the trip; 6) Allows you to get to Chengdu in early evening and rest up in a real hotel bed. Two nights on a train leaves most people pretty ragged.

Finally 7) If you take the continuous Chengdu-bound train from Lhasa, you don't arrive in Chengdu until the morning of Day 19. This means your plans for Day 19+ don't wash since you really won't get set up and ready to do the day's activities until mid to late morning. And you'll be tired.

Day 19-20. I think you're cramming entirely too much here. Emei Shan is really most of two full days and overnight including travel. IMO, you need to cut this out of this itinerary since you'll not be shortchanged on mountains nor on hiking. I think the Leshan Buddha is overrated but if you want to go there and back in a day, allot about 2/3 of the daylight hours to doing so, and most efficient with private car arrangement so you don't have to wait around for public transport schedules. Pandas are worthwhile and MUST be first thing in the morning or don't bother. Personally, I would do Pandas + Leshan on Day 19 (and it will be a long day) then only Chengdu town things and business on Day 20 and friends on Day 21 with a later flight to Beijing.

That's my 2 mao's worth.

so, we have a problem

I have been contacted by agency today, that Chinese government has trimmed down amount of Tibet Permits. What I understood was, that group below 5 people won't be able to access Tibet.

Have you experienced the same in the recent past?

best
mfk

so, we have a problem

I have been contacted by agency today, that Chinese government has trimmed down amount of Tibet Permits. What I understood was, that group below 5 people won't be able to access Tibet.

Have you experienced the same in the recent past?

best
mfk

That's the new policy, effective a few months ago. At least 5 from the same country in the traveling group are required to get the permit.

Tour operators are helping smaller parties to form a group. The problem is that for those traveling out of Lhasa, the perfect traveling size is FOUR, with one guide and one driver in a Land Cruiser.

That's the new policy, effective a few months ago. At least 5 from the same country in the traveling group are required to get the permit.

Tour operators are helping smaller parties to form a group. The problem is that for those traveling out of Lhasa, the perfect traveling size is FOUR, with one guide and one driver in a Land Cruiser.

that's exactly what I've been told - so at least we're on the same page. In your opinion - what is the chance of having that changed in the next month or two? Also - what would you advise as a backup plan - where could we go to touch Tibetan culture w/o actually getting to Lhasa.
One thing which I am really sad about is Potala Palace.

cheers
mfk

that's exactly what I've been told - so at least we're on the same page. In your opinion - what is the chance of having that changed in the next month or two? Also - what would you advise as a backup plan - where could we go to touch Tibetan culture w/o actually getting to Lhasa.
One thing which I am really sad about is Potala Palace.

cheers
mfk

I'd say chances of change in the near future is zero.

As mentioned above, Zhongdian in Yunnan is Tibetan. Vast area in western Sichuan is Tibetan, though not that easy to get to. Southern Gansu and most parts of Qinghai are Tibetan. Two of the 6 most important Tibetan Monasteries are in Gansu and Qinghai respectively - and Ta'er Monastery in Qinghai is just outside Xining. Very easy to get to, though the city of Xining is mostly Han Chinese.

As for Potala Palace, you may feel even more sad if you DO visit it. The Chinese government has turned it into a museum, with a huge name board at its entrance written by Zhang Zemin.

Michael, the restrictions on Tibet travel are absolutely true. I need to get back and update the Tibet thread on this forum for new current info, but basically to even apply for the Tibet Travel Permit, you need:

--Party of 5 people of same nationality (some agencies are reporting 4 is OK). A spouse holding a different passport may be accepted with a marriage license as proof.
--Citizens of the following countries are not accepted at this time: UK, Norway, Austria, South Korea (official); Vietnam, Philippines (unofficial).
--No foreigner is currently allowed to Everest Base Camp road. So even if your itinerary has it on there, it won't happen
--All arrangements must be substantially or completely prepaid

Note that just because you get everything together and make application, doesn't mean you will get a Permit. I would seriously reconsider even trying to get to the TAR anytime in 2012. Please check the following post for suggested alternatives.

Although I have not written up the Trip Report yet for FT, I have recently come from a journey through the Tibetan areas of Qinghai, Gansu, and northern Sichuan...most which are open to foreigners without permit or hassle, and which could be a great substitute if you are interesting in seeing Tibetans and their culture. And much cheaper than the T.A.R. My route was from Xining to Chengdu over the hills and through the grasslands, heading southbound, but I'll offer up the following heading northbound:

Assuming you have the same number of days allotted in your earlier itinerary, I would suggest the following for day 10 through 21:

Day 10: Fly Zhongdian-Chengdu on evening flight.
Day 11: Pandas morning, city + business afternoon
Day 12: Leshan morning, to Emei Shan afternoon, cable car up stay on mountain
Day 13: Emei Shan and down, return to Chengdu (this will be a very rushed trip to Emei Shan so you'll have to be selective on what you want to see.
Day 14: Chengdu - Songpan by bus.
Day 15: Songpan to Langmusi by car + bus or combo thereof. Langmusi is a bit dumpy but nice hiking and horse riding in the grasslands nearby. Scenery between the two is some mountain and valley, lots of upland grasslands with Tibetan herders and nomads. Visits can be arranged out of Langmusi (Can do from Songpan also, which is a bigger town; choose one or other.)
Day 16: Continuing allowance for grassland/Tibetan nomad visit. Langmusi has a monastery and a Tibetan Sky Burial site you can see in/near the town, accessible by walking.
Day 17: Bus Langmusi to Xiahe morning; afternoon Xiahe Labrang Monastery (most important monastery outside the T.A.R.. Make the English tour at 15:15.
Day 18: Xiahe morning; car to Tongren (Qinghai) via the mountain/grassland route. Tongren late afternoon. Upper and Lower monasteries, and center of Thanka painting artists. (google it).
Day 19: Tongren morning. Midday bus to Xining. Afternoon walk around Xining Mosque, main square.
Day 20: Xining. Kumbun (Ta'Er) Monastery.
Day 21: Fly to BJ.

Other permutations/alternates for part of above. I'm adjusting for timing and logistics issues to keep things realistic:
--From Xiahe, head by bus to Lanzhou, fly to BJ from there. Skip Tongren and Xining.
--Skip Emei Shan, and after Leshan, return to Chengdu and fly out to Jiuzhaigou. Spend two days there, then continue via Songpan/Chuanzhusi to Langmusi and beyond.
--Skip Emei Shan, proceed from Chengdu as above skipping Jiuzhaigou also, get to Xining. Then bus Xining-Zhangye (very scenic route). Danxia Landform outside Zhangye in late aft/early evening. Zhangye next morning with 1000-year old reclining Buddha, afternoon train to Lanzhou. Fly from there.

So....lots of options to see some really great stuff and real Tibetans, lamaseries, etc. If you go this route, you need to be prepared for simple hotels (they'll be clean and with private bath but without a lot of frou-frou) in many places, and bus rides. Could be done by private car also, or series thereof. There are agents out of Chengdu that could set something like this up for you. More expensive than doing much of it by public bus, but tons less expensive than going to the T.A.R. And again, permits not needed.

There is an overland option that takes you through Tibetan Yunnan and Sichuan from Zhongdian to Chengdu over the Yunnan-Sichuan highway, via Daocheng, Litang (very high at 4000 m), Kangding, and you come out near Emei Shan. But...there is a stretch of road under construction up there, it is a bit rugged but there are inns and small hotels, and you need to allow 5-6 days to do this which allows for some stopoffs and looksees at monasteries, villages, etc. Latest reports are that public buses won't sell you a ticket, but foreigners in private transport are getting through fine. Setting something up via a Zhongdian agency is probably best. If you decide to do this, you should plan to end the trip in Chengdu and fly to Beijing. In this case, I'd allocate Days 9-11 to heading further north to Deqin and Meili Snow Mountain and glacier above Zhongdian, then days 12-16 to do the highway route and get to Emei Shan, Days 17-18 at Emei/Leshan, Days 19-20 at Chengdu, and Day 21 fly to BJ.

Although I have not written up the Trip Report yet for FT, I have recently come from a journey through the Tibetan areas of Qinghai, Gansu, and northern Sichuan...most which are open to foreigners without permit or hassle, and which could be a great substitute if you are interesting in seeing Tibetans and their culture. And much cheaper than the T.A.R.

Hey Jiejie
that's a fantastic news / proposal - much appreciated. Allocating few hs time this evening to go through your proposal. One of my friends (Chinese) suggested going to:
- Hangzhou (since we start our trip in SH
- go back to BJ via Nanjing (she's based there)

Let me work on that stuff

thanks again - it is so great to have a backup plan!
mfk

Hey Jiejie
that's a fantastic news / proposal - much appreciated. Allocating few hs time this evening to go through your proposal. One of my friends (Chinese) suggested going to:
- Hangzhou (since we start our trip in SH
- go back to BJ via Nanjing (she's based there)

Let me work on that stuff

thanks again - it is so great to have a backup plan!
mfk

If you had your heart set on seeing Tibetans on this trip, then Hangzhou and Nanjing ain't going to do it. But you could cut something out, end up in Chengdu and on the 19th, fly from there to Nanjing or Hangzhou. Then bullet train up to Beijing.

Hey there,

If you had your heart set on seeing Tibetans on this trip, then Hangzhou and Nanjing ain't going to do it. But you could cut something out, end up in Chengdu and on the 19th, fly from there to Nanjing or Hangzhou. Then bullet train up to Beijing.

thanks - fully understand point above - let me add few key assumptions we currently have:
- no Tibet permit - tough - we want to see key Monasteries, few cities to get a feeling. Your suggestions like Kumbun (Ta'Er) Monastery, Tongren (Qinghai), Xiahe Labrang Monastery were spot on.
- For sake of time / travel we will not pursue "open spaces" (Langmusi, nomads, etc). I am perfectly aware that these are parts of Tibetan heritage, but need to make a compromise here.
- My 汉语 teacher will be in China at that time and she offered me joint trip around Hangzhou and Nanjing. Yep, no Tibetans there, but these were on our list however below our radar due to original TAR plans.
- CNY/PLN forex was unfavorable to us in the past few months, and we need to scale things down a little. (less intense travelling, more "city sightseeing").

What would you think about following:
Day 1: Arrival to SH, visiting friends

Day 2: Transfer to Hangzhou, with friends (no arrangements needed)
Day 3: Hangzhou, with friends (no arrangements needed), afternoon transfer to Kunming (via SH?)
Day 4: Kunming: West hill and Dianchi Lake,Qiongzhu Monastery.
Day 5: Kunming: Stone forest, Yuantong Temple and Yunnan Museum
Day 6: Kunming/Dali: Wase village,Haiyin Village,Shuanglang village.
Day 7: Dali: Xizhou market , Cangshan Mountain, Three pagodas of Chong sheng.
Day 8: Dali/Lijiang/Shuhe: Shuhe Ancient Town, free time
Day 9: Lijiang: Yufeng Monastery ,Baisha Fresco and Village, Watching "Impression Lijiang" at the foot of Jade Snow Mountain (optional),
Black Dragon Pond, Dongba Cultural Museum and Baisha Village.
Day 10: Lijiang/Tiger Leaping Gorges Trekking: Tiger Leaping Gorge town, pass by and sightseeing at the 1st bend of Yangtse River and Stone Drum. Trekking (around 4-5hrs).
Day 11: Trekking/Zhongdian (elev 3200m) - Trekking 2hrs for Walnut garden, Zhongdian, Songtsam Monastery
Day 12: Fly Zhongdian-Chengdu on evening flight.
Day 13: Pandas morning, city + business afternoon
Day 14: Leisure in Chengdu
Day 15: Morning travel to Xiahe (via ???)
Day 16: Xiahe, afternoon travel to Tongren (Qinghai) via the mountain/grassland route. Tongren evening.
Day 17: Upper and Lower monasteries, and center of Thanka painting artists.
Day 18: Mornnig to Xining. walk around Xining Mosque, main square.
Day 19: Kumbun (Ta'Er) Monastery, evening travel to Nanjing
Day 20: day in Nanjing
Day 21: Morning in Nanjing, Afternoon Nanjing >Beijing (Train), Visiting friends
Day 22: BJ>EU

I might need to cut some above further due to time / cost. Also flight/train availability will force us to move things around (moving around day 14 for example).

What do you think about above? Are we planning for a good option B given some assumptions mentioned?

Thanks a ton again!
mfk

What do you think about above? Are we planning for a good option B given some assumptions mentioned?


Allot more than "One night in Beijing (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CD4QtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DeSf 9G5x7rMI&ei=tPYXUJiAJoWkiQfN-ICADQ&usg=AFQjCNGgrTAZklg7L48inbLEmvGLHbTi9Q)".

Problems I see with your Option B, stemming from now cramming in too much adding two extra cities.

1) Structurally, going from Hangzhou, then west, then north, then back to Nanjing then to Beijing is not a good plan. Either do Hangzhou-Nanjing then move on west, north then to Beijing, or cut something out. You don't need to backtrack to Shanghai to get to Kunming from either of these cities.

2) You CANNOT get from Chengdu to Xiahe reliably on day 15. Definitely not overland, that's a minimum 2 days. Even the fastest way, flying Chengdu to Lanzhou then bus to Xiahe via Hezuo, will take all day when you figure in the distance from Lanzhou airport to city to bus transfer. No, No, No.

3) It would be better logistics on Day 15 to fly Chengdu-Xining in the morning, do the Kunbun Monastery in the afternoon (it's only 30 minutes from city, and time on site, is a total round trip of about 3 hours). Then move Xining > Tongren > Xiahe > Lanzhou and fly to BJ from there. But you really need 6 days to do this properly, allow for the bus or car timing, and have enough monastery/town time. No issue with cutting the grasslands--you'll pass through them on the bus from Tongren to Xiahe so will at least be able to see that slice of Tibetan culture even without a formal "visit."

4) There has been a landslide at Tiger Leaping Gorge road...the road that parallels below the Upper (trekking) trail. So if you do the trail and head down to the Middle Gorge by Tina's guest house to the road, a vehicle will have to take you to the slide area, you'll have to scramble over the pile, then a vehicle will be on the other side to take you to Qiaotou. You need to get to Lijiang and then sort out what's what. I personally think your plans timewise (even under normal circumstances) have always underestimated time it takes.

5) Bluntly, I think adding the Hangzhou-Nanjing bit compresses the rest of your wish list to close to undoable. Given the changing situation in China, I highly recommend you put at least one city (Hangzhou or Nanjing) of friends on hold for this trip, and stick with your Yunnan-Tibetan priorities. The cities will always be there, but the upland areas are changing year by year so sooner is better than later.

Thanks jiejie,
much appreciated

you might be right that adding Nanjing & Hangzhou might be an overkill. Let's try again, and yes, let's try to stay in the West of China.

based on your advice we should:
- skip HZ and move to Kunming on the day #2
- Lijiang-Zhongdian - have a good backup option to "Tiger Leaping Gorge" and we might consider going directly (w/o trekking)
- Changing the order of the latter part:
- Chengdu
- Xining > Tongren > Xiahe > Lanzhou in 6 days
- Beijing
So:

Day 1: Arrival to SH, visiting friends
Day 2: Transfer to Kunming
Day 3: Kunming: West hill and Dianchi Lake,Qiongzhu Monastery.
Day 4: Kunming: Stone forest, Yuantong Temple and Yunnan Museum
Day 5: Kunming/Dali: Wase village,Haiyin Village,Shuanglang village.
Day 6: Dali: Xizhou market , Cangshan Mountain, Three pagodas of Chong sheng.
Day 7: Dali/Lijiang/Shuhe: Shuhe Ancient Town, free time
Day 8: Lijiang: Yufeng Monastery ,Baisha Fresco and Village, Watching "Impression Lijiang" at the foot of Jade Snow Mountain (optional),
Black Dragon Pond, Dongba Cultural Museum and Baisha Village.
Day 9: Lijiang/Tiger Leaping Gorges Trekking: Tiger Leaping Gorge town, pass by and sightseeing at the 1st bend of Yangtse River and Stone Drum. Trekking (around 4-5hrs).
Day 10: Trekking/Zhongdian (elev 3200m) - Trekking 2hrs for Walnut garden, Zhongdian, Songtsam Monastery
--
Alternative -> direct transfer from Lijiang to Zhongdian
--
Day 11: Fly Zhongdian-Chengdu on evening flight.
Day 12: Pandas morning, city + Leisure in the evening
Day 13: Morning travel to Xining, Kunbun Monastery in the afternoon
DAy 14: Xining. walk around Xining Mosque, main square
Day 15: Transfer to Tongren (Qinghai)
Day 16: Upper and Lower monasteries, and center of Thanka painting artists.
Day 17: Afternoon transfer to Xiahe via the mountain/grassland route.
Day 18: Xiahe
Day 19: morning Xiahe, afternoon transfer to Lanzhou
Day 20: day in Lanzhou
Day 21: mid-day transfer Lanzhou-> Beijing. Visiting friends
Day 22: BJ>EU

Does it look more natural? Does above account for enough time in the North? Still not sure about second last night if we should be in BJ already but that's a minor detail

Thanks SO MUCH again
mfk

Thanks jiejie,
much appreciated

you might be right that adding Nanjing & Hangzhou might be an overkill. Let's try again, and yes, let's try to stay in the West of China.

based on your advice we should:
- skip HZ and move to Kunming on the day #2
- Lijiang-Zhongdian - have a good backup option to "Tiger Leaping Gorge" and we might consider going directly (w/o trekking)
- Changing the order of the latter part:
- Chengdu
- Xining > Tongren > Xiahe > Lanzhou in 6 days
- Beijing
So:

<snip>

Does it look more natural? Does above account for enough time in the North? Still not sure about second last night if we should be in BJ already but that's a minor detail

Thanks SO MUCH again
mfk


No, it's still not right, now there's almost too much time. Let's start with:
Day 13. OK. Chengdu-Xining morning flight. Afternoon in city: Mosque, People's Square, general lookaround
Day 14. Xining. Morning Kunbum Monastery (upon reflection, afternoons have worst Chinese crowds). If in spring I'd put monastery on Day 13 and Qinghai Lake an all-day'er on this day, but without all the migratory birds there, no point in going to the Lake. So, Morning Monastery and afternoon more lookaround/errands/relax.
Day 15. Morning to Tongren, 3 hours. If you get to Tongren by lunch, you can deal with the Upper/Lower Monasteries and see the Thanka painters all on that afternoon. Only 1 night here, Tongren is small.
Day 16. Morning to Xiahe, a few hours-ish. If you want a public bus, there is only one per day and it leaves about 7-ish am. If you arrange a private car, set your own time but it will cost a lot more. Will take about 3+ hours. Afternoon Xiahe.
Day 17. Xiahe. You don't need more time than this 1.5 days.
Day 18. Morning bus to Lanzhou. There are limited timings in the early morning. Otherwise, use high frequency buses to Hezuo then switch to another high-frequency to Lanzhou. It's much easier to get up early take a direct bus though. Afternoon Lanzhou. Frankly, I'm not a fan of the place and suggest you take an evening flight out of there to Beijing and spend the night there. Seriously.
Day 19. Beijing
Day 20 BJ-EU.

Now you see we have a spare day (21). If you bump everything in the sequence I just described to start Day 14 and end Day 21, now you can go back and re-tune the front end, of which you still have some days laid out less-than-optimally. I would add the "extra" day in the Zhongdian area, as I think that what you currently have for getting there and having a meaningful lookaround is not entirely realistic.

Or, if you decide an overnight trek at Tiger Leaping Gorge is not a good idea after all, you can just make a stop at the Upper Gorge for a look, then continue on to Zhongdian.

Chengdu would benefit by an extra day--there is a lot to see/do in that region. But not sure where you'd pick it up from (Kunming?)

Chengdu would benefit by an extra day--there is a lot to see/do in that region. But not sure where you'd pick it up from (Kunming?)

Gosh, I so owe you! :) let me know where you're based and will come with a small (?) gift :) Who am I to disagree w/ your recommendations :) We will probably use organized transport to make that effective.

If I look right at above we have two spare days - Day 20 and Day 21. We might get one more day in both Chengdu and Zhongdian and fly to Beijing from Lanzhou w/o even staying there - would that be a good option?

best!
mfk

OP: I know you've been to Beijing in the past, but it is still worth a visit to cap off your trip, even you only have 12 hours to spare. Just do the Gulou thing, and eat at the Italian place I mentioned in the "Time Out" thread.

A Beijing day or long stopover even for a meal and a massage (you may be tired of sightseeing at that point!) is never a bad idea. But it's up to you. If your flight on Day 21 from BJ to home is later in the afternoon or evening, you will have that morning time to play with as well.

cheers!

Looks like an amazing itinerary. You're definitely hitting the right spots. Enjoy Dali, it was a great place to visit!

team,

thanks again for your help in choosing the right route - will be posting few comments / pics @ http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-reports/1397907-over-3rd-time-china-month-positive-surprises.html

cheers!
mfk

team,

thanks again for your help in choosing the right route - will be posting few comments / pics @ http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-reports/1397907-over-3rd-time-china-month-positive-surprises.html

cheers!
mfk

Thanks for the TR, looking good so far. ^

I'm posting this publicly not just for the OP's benefit but for anybody else with an imminent trip to the Amdo Tibetan area north of Songpan. This would include Zoige (Ruo'ergai), Langmusi, Hezuo, Xiahe and the Labrang Monastery. Possibly into Qinghai such as Tongren, but that is unclear right now.

The Chinese government may have just shut down (as of Oct 20) this area to foreigners. Rumor is that there has recently been two more Tibetan self-immolation in the region (Hezuo area of Gansu), very sad. Travelers just coming out (or being kicked out) are reporting lots of police and military. Bus ticket sales for foreigners to and through the area are being stopped. This would also affect people in Langzhou wanting to head south towards Xiahe--if history of what the police usually do repeats itself, foreigners likely would be intercepted at checkpoints south of Linxia and prevented from going further, unless one can sneak through in a private vehicle. (But Linxia and Bingling Si should be fine). Also, right now it may not be a hospitable area to travel for Han Chinese or those foreigners appearing to be Han.

While awaiting more first-hand reports from other sources, anybody (like you Michal!) that has travel planned through this area in the near future needs to stay as tuned in as possible--hostels in the Chengdu area should be getting better information soon. The Chengdu-Songpan-Jiuzhaigou road route remains open, that is much farther south of the newly restricted area. Likewise, no problems getting flights into JZH.

It would not surprise me if this situation were to continue until the conclusion of November's Party Congress in Beijing. Have a Plan B.

Michal, if you decide you need a Plan B, weigh in and we'll help you out for either:

1) From Xining to Lanzhou with tweak of plans, or
2) Complete rework of the post-Chengdu part of trip.

Thanks Jiejie,
will keep watching this thread to see what happens - contacting my agency to see what they know at this time (they have contractors in Xining and Chengdu).
will post anything new I know.

Maybe it is irrelevant, but today in Shangri-la I've seen military "helping" monks to decorate monasteries for some celebrations. Looked pretty weird to be honest

Staying tuned and stay tuned as well
mfk

Thanks Jiejie,
will keep watching this thread to see what happens - contacting my agency to see what they know at this time (they have contractors in Xining and Chengdu).
will post anything new I know.

Maybe it is irrelevant, but today in Shangri-la I've seen military "helping" monks to decorate monasteries for some celebrations. Looked pretty weird to be honest

Staying tuned and stay tuned as well
mfk

Not irrelevant. A rather obvious display to the Monastery and locals that Big Brother is watching and ready to lower the hammer at any time. Ganden Sumtsanling (Songzanlin) is a large monastery and always under watch like all the major lamaseries in all Tibetan areas of the PRC. Usually the monks there are less "militant" and prone to protests than the ones at Xiahe in Gansu, but due to size and prominence are always under suspicion by the gov't. Gov't is very jumpy right now, I believe they are expecting Tibetan protests and other disobedience purposefully timed to coincide with the Party Congress and change of PRC leadership.

Not irrelevant

http://kowalik.smugmug.com/Travel/China-12/i-qZ6pnMv/0/L/IMG00210-20121021-1051-L.jpg
(pay attention to details)

Not irrelevant. A rather obvious display to the Monastery and locals that Big Brother is watching and ready to lower the hammer at any time. Ganden Sumtsanling (Songzanlin) is a large monastery and always under watch like all the major lamaseries in all Tibetan areas of the PRC. Usually the monks there are less "militant" and prone to protests than the ones at Xiahe in Gansu, but due to size and prominence are always under suspicion by the gov't. Gov't is very jumpy right now, I believe they are expecting Tibetan protests and other disobedience purposefully timed to coincide with the Party Congress and change of PRC leadership.

OK, got news from my agency
--
We've got concrete news that from this noon on, Labrang monastery will be closed to foreigners. Still waiting for the news in Tongren
--

so we have right now 2 days hole in our itinerary... let me wait for the Tongren news and we will replan.

stay tuned
mfk

more news
--
no affection on Kumbum Monastery and Tongren.
Labrang Monastery and Langmu Monastery are closed to foreigners
--
we will stay in Sichuan (per earlier prioritizing in this thread)

jiejie - thanks again for an early warning!!!
mfk

ps - new plan
Leshan / Emei Mountain/ Baoguo Si Temple / Monastery of the Lurking Tiger (Fuhu Si). Overnight at foot of Emei Mt.
Wannian Temple / Emei Mt. (Take cableway up, walk down) / transfer back to Chengdu