TalkBoard Topics - Please help the TalkBoard describe a Games forum

Discussion of the active proposal on post counting included the possibility of a Games forum in which posts would not be counted. That in turn raises the question of what kinds of threads are games, and what kinds of threads are not.

I would like input here on that question in order to help the TalkBoard draft a suitable proposal for a new Games forum. Input on whether or not Games posts should count is off-topic here. I want to focus only on how to describe what is a Game thread and what is not.

This proposal will need to explicitly state that Lounge threads established for the users of a particular forum are not considered Games threads that belong in the Games forum, so we don't need to worry that our definition of a game thread might apply to Lounge threads. Whether Lounge threads should or should not be counted is off-topic here. (FWIW, I believe that opinion heavily favors the status quo on Lounge threads.)


As I see it, game threads include:

1. Counting games
2. Contests
3. Threads where the content of a post is related to the time of day, the content of the previous post
4. Threads for random thoughts
5. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become games

I'd like suggestions to improve this description.

Thank
God
It's
Friday

I would define it as any thread that one post depends upon the post before it, such as "cities in alphabetical order, counting, etc. Basically, what NSX said :)

I don't consider
Thank
God
It's
Friday

a game. Those 4 threads are almost a permanent part of Omni, though sometimes forgotten about, used to celebrate the end of the week :) It's generally only posted a few times each week to try to get it them the proper thread order. Once it's that way, no one else posts to any of the 4 threads.

4. Threads for random thoughts


Could you be more specific? Or give an example of such thread?

Or give an example of such thread?I don't know if these meet the criteria or not, but if not, I suspect they are close (there may be other, I just happened to remember these two):
The Random Facts Thread (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/651368-random-facts-thread.html)
Uno, Due, ... (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/646494-uno-due.html)

"Any thread, on any forum, determined by the moderators of that forum to be a game thread shall be moved to the Game Thread Forum. The moderators of the Game Thread Forum, however, shall have the final say and can return the thread to its original forum. If a thread is begun on the Game Thread Forum, and its moderators feel it is better suited elsewhere, they may move it to the forum which they believe should host it."

Yeah, i have to say I'm with Dovster. TB doesn't need to provide a definition of what is a game, as the board isn't moderated by robots.

Trying to tell what threads to put into it seems a bit like micro-management.

I agree with Dovster on this one.....

Also, isnt this a bit premature? Doesn't the post counting motion need to pass for this to be an issue? Or am I missing something?

removing games threads removes a large factor against counting, and prevents people from spamming 5 character posts to raise post count by the thousand. votes could be contingent.

Dovster
and "final say" = SanDiego1K
i think it could be abbreviated a little bit too.

I agree with Dovster on this one.....

Also, isnt this a bit premature? Doesn't the post counting motion need to pass for this to be an issue? Or am I missing something?I suspect they want to have this proposal ready to go if the vote for counting all posts passes.

I suspect they want to have this proposal ready to go if the vote for counting all posts passes.

Correctamundo!!

As I see it, game threads include:

1. Counting games
2. Contests
3. Threads where the content of a post is related to the time of day, the content of the previous post
4. Threads for random thoughts
5. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become games



As a current ONMI moderator, my two cents says that nsx's definition is fine for TB's purpose in writing the motion. Point 5 gives the OMNI moderators wide latitude in determining what should be moved into a Games forum.

I'm OK with it as he has written it but am open to further refinement or suggestions should someone offer them.

I am against counting posts in OMNI unless the games forum could be split out.

Correctamundo!!

Absotively. I'm OK with the 5-pronged approach mentioned above. To me, this covers everything. We can get to work on this, I think.

Absotively. I'm OK with the 5-pronged approach mentioned above. To me, this covers everything. We can get to work on this, I think.And I like the 5 pronged pitchfork as well ^

Here's the text for a draft proposal:

The TalkBoard recommends creation of a Games forum under the OMNI category, to be used for the following types of threads:
1. Counting games
2. Contests
3. Threads where the content of a post is related to the time of day, the content of the previous post
4. Threads for random thoughts
5. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become gamesthat Lounge threads established for the users of a particular forum are not considered Games threads that belong in the Games forum, so we don't need to worry that our definition of a game thread might apply to Lounge threads. Whether Lounge threads should or should not be counted is off-topic here. (FWIW, I believe that opinion heavily favors the status quo on Lounge threads.)

The TalkBoard does not consider Lounge threads or other off-topic threads established for the users of a particular forum to be game threads that belong in the Games forum.

To the extent possible, posts made in the Games forum shall not be included in a member's post count.

#4 feels like many posts in OMNI... and OMNI PR... not sure that is my idea of a "games" thread.

#4 feels like many posts in OMNI... and OMNI PR... not sure that is my idea of a "games" thread.

That's a good point. I think that needs to be refined or eliminated. Didn't catch that myself. Most forks have 4 prongs, anyway.

If there is a motion to count all posts, why would a games forum explicitly prohibit counting posts? Doesn't that then put FT back into the inconsistency of post counts that the current motion is trying to correct?

IMHO, because some jokers in 2007/2008 thought it would be "fun" to rack up thousands upon thousands of posts just to make it to evangelist or legend. I saw one thread where a person posted 18k times - and there were several threads being posted to.

Having a non-counting games forum will prevent that from happening again, because as one of the mods posted, they don't consider counting any more post padding than a "yes" or "thank you" reply in other threads or forums.

IMHO, because some jokers in 2007/2008 thought it would be "fun" to rack up thousands upon thousands of posts just to make it to evangelist or legend. I saw one thread where a person posted 18k times - and there were several threads being posted to.

Having a non-counting games forum will prevent that from happening again, because as one of the mods posted, they don't consider counting any more post padding than a "yes" or "thank you" reply in other threads or forums.

I couldn't possibly care about the counting or not counting of game posts. I would be more than happy to create a games forum and have all those posts count, myself.

Sometimes, though, you don't always get what you want in order to get something else you do want...

IMHO, because some jokers in 2007/2008 thought it would be "fun" to rack up thousands upon thousands of posts just to make it to evangelist or legend. I saw one thread where a person posted 18k times - and there were several threads being posted to.

Having a non-counting games forum will prevent that from happening again, because as one of the mods posted, they don't consider counting any more post padding than a "yes" or "thank you" reply in other threads or forums.
I understand that, but feel that if one of the big reasons for the current TB motion is consistency, then a non-counting games forum shoots a huge hole in that reason, because it isn't consistent.
I couldn't possibly care about the counting or not counting of game posts. I would be more than happy to create a games forum and have all those posts count, myself.

Sometimes, though, you don't always get what you want in order to get something else you do want...
I guess I'm just looking at it and thinking, "If this were to pass then as well, how long until the calls for, 'count posts in OMNI-Games. We're being treated unfairly, because our posts don't count," starts?

I understand that, but feel that if one of the big reasons for the current TB motion is consistency, then a non-counting games forum shoots a huge hole in that reason, because it isn't consistent.

I guess I'm just looking at it and thinking, "If this were to pass then as well, how long until the calls for, 'count posts in OMNI-Games. We're being treated unfairly, because our posts don't count," starts?

I personally think games can build community.

But I am for putting them in a separate forum if they start to clutter up OMNI. I personally don't think games should not count...if someone wants to go on an Evangelist run I have no problem with that so long as they don't inconvenience anyone else in the process. After all, once they have OMNI and CC access, post counts are largely meaningless.

JMHO.

I agree with this... it is easy enough to search and figure out posting history outside OMNI... why create another forum that disenfranchises members?

Keep it simple... until a problem truly exists.

I personally think games can build community.

But I am for putting them in a separate forum if they start to clutter up OMNI. I personally don't think games should not count...if someone wants to go on an Evangelist run I have no problem with that so long as they don't inconvenience anyone else in the process. After all, once they have OMNI and CC access, post counts are largely meaningless.

JMHO.

I personally think games can build community.

But I am for putting them in a separate forum if they start to clutter up OMNI. I personally don't think games should not count...if someone wants to go on an Evangelist run I have no problem with that so long as they don't inconvenience anyone else in the process. After all, once they have OMNI and CC access, post counts are largely meaningless.

JMHO.
I don't mind an additional forum, as an OMNI-Games forum, if it is decided that the games are cluttering up OMNI.
I agree with this... it is easy enough to search and figure out posting history outside OMNI... why create another forum that disenfranchises members?

Keep it simple... until a problem truly exists.
^ Thank you for explaining it better than I could this morning. :D Apparently, a lack of sleep and a lack of coffee aren't a good combination.

That's a good point. I think that needs to be refined or eliminated. Didn't catch that myself. Most forks have 4 prongs, anyway.


Yeah, more I think about it I agree. This point is a bit too vague and should probably be eliminated. If it looks like a thread full of so-called random thoughts is actually turning into some sort of game, the OMNI Mods can move it over to the Games sub forum.

I personally think games can build community.

But I am for putting them in a separate forum if they start to clutter up OMNI. I personally don't think games should not count...if someone wants to go on an Evangelist run I have no problem with that so long as they don't inconvenience anyone else in the process. After all, once they have OMNI and CC access, post counts are largely meaningless.

JMHO.

I have no strong feeling one way or the other but this brings up a good point. Maybe we should make two motions out of this.

The first would be should we break out a third OMNI sub forum called OMNI/Games?

The second is should the posts in this new forum be counted?

The motions and voting can run simultaneously,

I don't think we can make this one motion as some folks might favor a Games sub forum but vote against it as they don't think the posts should count. And vice-versa.

I think we have two separate issues here.

How about going one better and forgetting about the games threads altogether and consider it post padding?

I can't think a single value to this community of someone counting up or down from 500,000 - particularly when all they post is a 6 digit number (now).

Responding yes or thank-you is at least saying something.

How about going one better and forgetting about the games threads altogether and consider it post padding?

I can't think a single value to this community of someone counting up or down from 500,000 - particularly when all they post is a 6 digit number (now).

Responding yes or thank-you is at least saying something.

Wouldn't post-padding fall under moderation, which isn't under TB's purview? :D

How about going one better and forgetting about the games threads altogether and consider it post padding?

I can't think a single value to this community of someone counting up or down from 500,000 - particularly when all they post is a 6 digit number (now)


Mary, my reasoning is that people come to FT for any number of reasons and, I guess, playing games is one of them. Quite a few people play them and they haven't been getting post count credit for years so I assume they're playing them for fun or as something to kill time or whatever. I don't think anybody is posting to these game threads because someone is holding a gun to their head. They must be getting some sort of pleasure or enjoyment out of them.

I don't want to decide what should or should not be fun for the FT Community. I think we just need to decide where these games should be placed and whether or not the posts should count.

How about going one better and forgetting about the games threads altogether and consider it post padding?

I can't think a single value to this community of someone counting up or down from 500,000 - particularly when all they post is a 6 digit number (now).

Responding yes or thank-you is at least saying something.

This coming from the poster who vehemently argues that all posts should be treated equally.

Guess what. Counting threads count just as much when it comes to page views and ad revenue then any post about gardening, auto repair, and Republican debate discussion. In fact, because they are quicker to make, and much more numerous, they actually add more page views and make more money.

The smell of irony is so delicious in the morning.

Here's the text for a draft proposal:.......

The TalkBoard recommends creation of a Games forum under the OMNI category, to be used for the following types of threads:
......
5. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become gamesthat Lounge threads established for the users of a particular forum are not considered Games threads that belong in the Games forum, so we don't need to worry that our definition of a game thread might apply to Lounge threads. Whether Lounge threads should or should not be counted is off-topic here. (FWIW, I believe that opinion heavily favors the status quo on Lounge threads.)

The TalkBoard does not consider Lounge threads or other off-topic threads established for the users of a particular forum to be game threads that belong in the Games forum.

To the extent possible, posts made in the Games forum shall not be included in a member's post count.Re: pint #5....

Why not just say: This only applies to Games Threads and not to Lounge threads. If a Moderator deems that in their judgement, a Lounge thread has become a Games thread, the Moderator shall move said Lounge thread into the Games forum where it will be treated like all other Games threads.

This coming from the poster who vehemently argues that all posts should be treated equally.

Guess what. Counting threads count just as much when it comes to page views and ad revenue then any post about gardening, auto repair, and Republican debate discussion. In fact, because they are quicker to make, and much more numerous, they actually add more page views and make more money.

The smell of irony is so delicious in the morning.Rather than spend time arguing about whether or not counting games should be in their own forum, and get into the "all posts count" discussion, I proposed it as a alternate thought.

I disagree with the mods that counting isn't post padding - when Omni counted, the worst offenders clearly stated that was their goal. The game threads dropped off substantially when posts stopped counting.

But they're the mods and it's their decision.

However, it really isn't necessary to get sarcastic with me just because we have a different opinion.

Mary, my reasoning is that people come to FT for any number of reasons and, I guess, playing games is one of them. Quite a few people play them and they haven't been getting post count credit for years so I assume they're playing them for fun or as something to kill time or whatever. I don't think anybody is posting to these game threads because someone is holding a gun to their head. They must be getting some sort of pleasure or enjoyment out of them.I get that. Really I do. But you became an Omni mod the same day posts stopped counting and it was split up. You didn't see all the people amassing all those posts, though I know you're now aware of them. I agree those still counting away must be doing it for some sort of enjoyment - and I think it's only one or two people. If they are permitted to remain and count, well, you're going to see it all start up again.

I don't want to decide what should or should not be fun for the FT Community. I think we just need to decide where these games should be placed and whether or not the posts should count.I agree, but just how many of these people are having fun? I think it's only a couple. Opening up the door to these kinds of threads will only cause the padding to start up again. And that's what got alot of people pissed off at Omni - those counting threads were always showing up in "new threads" and people just didn't want to see them on top all the time. Some even had their access to Omni cut off just so they didn't have to deal with it.

But like I said before, you're the mod and it's your decision. I disagree, but heck, who am I? :D

However, it really isn't necessary to get sarcastic with me just because we have a different opinion.

Exactly, and in fairness, Mary2e has been talking about posts counting in the context of adding value to the community. Counting games add no value because there is no content. At least with off topic subjects, there is a topic and some discussion.

Describing a games forum is certainly difficult. I'd say that some factors for consideration have to be whether there is a topic being discussed, information provided or an opinion given or whether a person's response has to be based on the previous poster.

Not at easy task and it would certainly be up to the moderator's discretion. But, I am strongly in favour of a forum being created to capture these types of threads so that there is a place for them to be moved to, if a moderator decides that is the appropriate course of action.

But like I said before, you're the mod and it's your decision. I disagree, but heck, who am I? :D

You're Mary2e, a prominent and respected FT'er and also a secret weapon for the OMNI mods.

We won't necessarily define the details of that last role. ;)

Weapon???? Oh god, I need to get a life :D :D ;)

Thanks to everyone for the helpful comments. Here is a draft proposal in two parts:

Vote 1:

The TalkBoard recommends creation of a Games forum under the OMNI category, to be used for the following types of threads:
1. Counting games
2. Contests
3. Threads where the content of a post is related to the time of day, the content of the previous post
4. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become games.
The TalkBoard does not consider Lounge threads to be Game threads.

Vote 2:

If the Community Director creates a Games forum, the TalkBoard recommends that posts made in the Games forum be excluded from a member's post count.

Thanks to everyone for the helpful comments. Here is a draft proposal in two parts:

Vote 1:

The TalkBoard recommends creation of a Games forum under the OMNI category, to be used for the following types of threads:
1. Counting games
2. Contests
3. Threads where the content of a post is related to the time of day, the content of the previous post
4. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become games.
The TalkBoard does not consider Lounge threads to be Game threads.

Vote 2:

If the Community Director creates a Games forum, the TalkBoard recommends that posts made in the Games forum be excluded from a member's post count.
I still don't understand why, when the vote on counting all posts is being done in part to eliminate the inconsistency, that TalkBoard would then vote on adding that inconsistency back into the mix, this time in a new forum.

I still don't understand why, when the vote on counting all posts is being done in part to eliminate the inconsistency, that TalkBoard would then vote on adding that inconsistency back into the mix, this time in a new forum.

As I said in the private TB forum, I am a 'sure, I guess' on vote #1 and a 'no' on vote #2 for the very reason you state, and because I think games can help build community, and because I really don't care if folks want to go on 'posting runs' in the games forum.

But I appreciate nsx splitting the issues out so that I can make that clear case.

As I said in the private TB forum, I am a 'sure, I guess' on vote #1 and a 'no' on vote #2 for the very reason you state, and because I think games can help build community, and because I really don't care if folks want to go on 'posting runs' in the games forum.

But I appreciate nsx splitting the issues out so that I can make that clear case.

To some extent, I think that if the games are in a separate forum, then really, what does it matter how active someone is in that forum? Those who don't want to deal with the games won't have to, at that point. Yes, splitting it into 2 votes is a good option there. :)

I still don't understand why, when the vote on counting all posts is being done in part to eliminate the inconsistency, that TalkBoard would then vote on adding that inconsistency back into the mix, this time in a new forum.

Counting OMNI posts is a benefit to posters who care about their count. IMO it's OK to count those posts because OMNI posts are often valued by readers.

However game thread posts have zero value to readers. Therefore the argument for counting those posts is completely one-sided and falls short.

Counting games posts will, I believe, cause a posting rush in game threads. This will unnecessarily degrade any remaining value to readers of the post count metric. We should prevent that.

As I said in the OP, I'd like to save the pros and cons discussion for the debate thread once the proposal goes live. For today I just want to get the wording right.

Considering that any member can do a quick search for how many posts members make in any forum, I do not buy the "degrading post count metric" argument.

There are many forums that hold zero value to me as a reader... but I do not argue they should not count...

Just count everything and let members do their research if the post counts mean something to them.

Or better yet, why not ask IB if it is feasible to expand the "Posts: xx,xxx" to add an "OMNI Posts: xxxx" or something like that?

Considering that any member can do a quick search for how many posts members make in any forum, I do not buy the "degrading post count metric" argument.

There are many forums that hold zero value to me as a reader... but I do not argue they should not count...

Just count everything and let members do their research if the post counts mean something to them.

Or better yet, why not ask IB if it is feasible to expand the "Posts: xx,xxx" to add an "OMNI Posts: xxxx" or something like that?

As long as we can have it also say "Lounge Posts: xxxx, Contest Posts: xxxx, etc." Quite frankly, it's unworkable -- to me counting everything means counting everything within one count.

Is anyone else incredulous that TB, in the midst of voting for a measure that would make all posts count, is considering bringing forward a measure that would again create a subset of posts that would not count?

Is anyone else incredulous that TB, in the midst of voting for a measure that would make all posts count, is considering bringing forward a measure that would again create a subset of posts that would not count?

Sometimes you have to compromise. I'd rather have OMNI and OMNI/PR posts count save game thread posts than none of them.

And incredulous is too strong a word regardless. IJAFIBB, after all.

And incredulous is too strong a word regardless. IJAFIBB, after all.

Ha. But this is FT, where not getting your first choice of meals is described as "a new low" and a "hellish experience."

Ha. But this is FT, where not getting your first choice of meals is described as "a new low" and a "hellish experience."

Exactly. FTers love to dramatize. To outsiders we appear to be a pack of whiners. Objectively, we are. This is closely coupled with our obsession with wringing the last drop of value out of FF programs.

I agree... that is why I prefer to just let members do the extra little search if they really want to know how many posts are OMNI related. You really have to do that now anyway.... since some OMNI posts have counted and others have not.

As long as we can have it also say "Lounge Posts: xxxx, Contest Posts: xxxx, etc." Quite frankly, it's unworkable -- to me counting everything means counting everything within one count.

Counting OMNI posts is a benefit to posters who care about their count. IMO it's OK to count those posts because OMNI posts are often valued by readers.

However game thread posts have zero value to readers. Therefore the argument for counting those posts is completely one-sided and falls short.

Counting games posts will, I believe, cause a posting rush in game threads. This will unnecessarily degrade any remaining value to readers of the post count metric. We should prevent that.

As I said in the OP, I'd like to save the pros and cons discussion for the debate thread once the proposal goes live. For today I just want to get the wording right.
I'd wager that there are some game threads that those participating would argue build community as well. Take a look at the latest "Who Will Be The Next FlyerTalk Member to Post? An OMNI Game (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/1297113-who-will-next-flyertalk-member-post-omni-game.html)," thread. It's a game thread, so it would fall into the new games forum, but there is discussion of hotels and such. Likewise, IMO, it's helping to build community, with the discussions in addition to the game.
Considering that any member can do a quick search for how many posts members make in any forum, I do not buy the "degrading post count metric" argument.

There are many forums that hold zero value to me as a reader... but I do not argue they should not count...

Just count everything and let members do their research if the post counts mean something to them.

Or better yet, why not ask IB if it is feasible to expand the "Posts: xx,xxx" to add an "OMNI Posts: xxxx" or something like that?
I agree with just counting everything.
As long as we can have it also say "Lounge Posts: xxxx, Contest Posts: xxxx, etc." Quite frankly, it's unworkable -- to me counting everything means counting everything within one count.
^ This makes sense.
Is anyone else incredulous that TB, in the midst of voting for a measure that would make all posts count, is considering bringing forward a measure that would again create a subset of posts that would not count?
I'm very confused as to why they would do this. I could buy splitting OMNI games into its own forum as a compromise to counting all posts again. However, I don't get why they would then not count posts in that forum.

If the concern is that the game threads will clutter up OMNI, then fine, move them to their own forum. I would like to wait and see if there was a need to do this, but if it's a huge concern, then fine, split it before looking to see if there really is a need for it. However, why immediately go back to not counting posts in a forum?

I don't honestly think that the folks....however many of them there are....who play the current Game threads actually care if their posts count in those threads. None have ever come forward in either this thread or to me, as an OMNI mod, via PM to make their case.

But it seems that the folks, with some prominent exceptions, who HAVE spoken up here and elsewhere seem to view the Game threads as useless and off-topic for FT.

I'm not a hardliner on this issue in either direction so splitting out a separate Games Forum and having those posts not count would seem to please the majority who have made their opinions known.

And you know what? If it turns out that we eventually agree that all OMNI posts should count regardless of the sub forum, we can vote again and the CD can simply flip a switch and the problem is fixed.

Nothing is carved in stone around here. Except a pledge to maximize our mile and points. :)

But it seems that the folks, with some prominent exceptions, who HAVE spoken up here and elsewhere seem to view the Game threads as useless and off-topic for FT.

I'm not a hardliner on this issue in either direction so splitting out a separate Games Forum and having those posts not count would seem to please the majority who have made their opinions known.



The majority have made their opinions known that they do not want any OMNI posts to count. I hope you have voted accordingly on that measure.

The majority have made their opinions known that they do not want any OMNI posts to count. I hope you have voted accordingly on that measure.

So our vote should be cast based on the feelings of 70 or so people who have bothered to post on this thread? You'll understand why I don't find that argument particularly compelling.

So our vote should be cast based on the feelings of 70 or so people who have bothered to post on this thread? You'll understand why I don't find that argument particularly compelling.

Your fellow TB member seems to think that way. Although I know everyone has their own opinions.

Thanks to everyone for the helpful comments. Here is a draft proposal in two parts:

Vote 1:

The TalkBoard recommends creation of a Games forum under the OMNI category, to be used for the following types of threads:
1. Counting games
2. Contests
3. Threads where the content of a post is related to the time of day, the content of the previous post
4. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become games.
The TalkBoard does not consider Lounge threads to be Game threads.

Vote 2:

If the Community Director creates a Games forum, the TalkBoard recommends that posts made in the Games forum be excluded from a member's post count.


Looks good but two questions.....

Regarding item number 3

Threads where the content of a post is related to the time of day, the content of the previous post
Are we limiting it to only those items or should something like "and similar post contents" be included or does item #4 cover that?

As to the two votes, I take it that these are two separate votes with the second being contingent on the first vote passing

Oops-actually 3 questions.....

Regarding point 4

The TalkBoard does not consider Lounge threads to be Game threads.
While TB does not consider Lounge threads to be game threads, what if a Moderator thinks the opposite and moves the thread or will they not be moving lounge threads?

While TB does not consider Lounge threads to be game threads, what if a Moderator thinks the opposite and moves the thread or will they not be moving lounge threads?

I can't speak for other mods but the Lounge threads were originally developed to provide like-minded members...DL Flyers, Starwood devotees, etc....a thread to build community and to make comments that would otherwise be off-topic in most of the Forum's threads.

I don't think you'll be seeing many moderators move their Lounge threads to the OMNI Games subforum should one be developed. They've had the option to move those Lounge thread to OMNI for years and nobody has thus far. I think most mods enjoy or at least tolerate their Lounge threads and appreciate the fact that it helps keep the rest of the forum more or less on-topic.

Thanks to everyone for the helpful comments. Here is a draft proposal in two parts:

Vote 1:

The TalkBoard recommends creation of a Games forum under the OMNI category, to be used for the following types of threads:
1. Counting games
2. Contests
3. Threads where the content of a post is related to the time of day, the content of the previous post
4. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become games.
The TalkBoard does not consider Lounge threads to be Game threads.

Vote 2:

If the Community Director creates a Games forum, the TalkBoard recommends that posts made in the Games forum be excluded from a member's post count.

I like the idea of a games thread. Ever since the OMNI post count motion a bunch of old OMNI games have been resurrected from the bowels of Pages 100+. I can only guess that the reason is that some people wanted to make a point about OMNI games as it relates to post counting. Prior to the motion the only games regularly on the first page were the count down thread (and the count up thread before we achieved the milestone), the next FT member to post thread, and sometimes the Misunderstand & reply and the 4 Word Story threads. Now OMNI/fluff is rather inundated with old games. I do think that after voting has closed some of those resurrected threads will die again within a few weeks.

Vote 1 encapsulates the idea very well. At this point I support it as stated.

I just don't see games threads as post padding. I would think that the biggest offenders would be those posting in the counting threads. The_Banking_Scot is by far the biggest participator of the counting threads. In the count up to 100000 thread he or she only had 6700 (based on my google search pointing me to a non-FT site) of those posts. That accounts for only about 2000 posts per year. Most people aren't anywhere close to that in posting numbers (the next highest poster had hundreds of posts). So I just don't see much padding happening. An extra few hundred posts per year is nothing to the tens of thousands of posts that some people have.

Vote 2 is probably necessary although I hope that the games threads will count.

Thanks for the comments. The following changes should improve clarity:

Vote 1:

The TalkBoard recommends creation of a Games forum under the OMNI category intended for the following types of threads:
1. Counting games
2. Contests
3. Threads where the content of a post is related to the time of day, the content of the previous post
4. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become games.
The TalkBoard does not consider Lounge threads in non-OMNI forums to be Game threads. The TalkBoard recognizes that moderators of each forum shall decide whether a given thread is more valuable in that forum, in the Games forum, or in some other forum.

Vote 2:

If the Community Director creates a Games forum, the TalkBoard recommends that posts made in the Games forum be excluded from a member's post count.

Will this OMNI-Games forum require 180 days/180 posts for access?

Again, why the push to add back the inconsistency in not counting certain posts, when there is a motion currently being voted on that does away with the inconsistency?

3. Threads where the content of a post is related to the time of day, the content of the previous post

I'd probably strike 'the content of the previous post' & put something like 'and similar type posts' after time of day.

80% (a guess) of all FT forum posts are in response to the content of the previous post ;)

I'm supportive of a games sub-forum. I'm up in the air on whether the sub-forum posts should count. On the one hand it would appease those who are angsting about folks getting a gazillion posts & supposedly diluting their own hard-earned posts. But at the time time posts counting in Omni was for consistency's sake across all FT forums, so except for games makes no sense to me in terms of consistency.

Cheers.

I'm supportive of a games sub-forum. I'm up in the air on whether the sub-forum posts should count. On the one hand it would appease those who are angsting about folks getting a gazillion posts & supposedly diluting their own hard-earned posts. But at the time time posts counting in Omni was for consistency's sake across all FT forums, so except for games makes no sense to me in terms of consistency.

Cheers."Complexity and Contradiction ultimately affirms a functionalist approach", Robert Venturi :)

I like the idea of a games thread. Ever since the OMNI post count motion a bunch of old OMNI games have been resurrected from the bowels of Pages 100+. I can only guess that the reason is that some people wanted to make a point about OMNI games as it relates to post counting. Prior to the motion the only games regularly on the first page were the I noticed this as well.

I can think of 2 members, and actually, those 2 I blame for getting Omni posts to no longer count, that have well over 20k posts just in those threads. I think one of them may have 30k.

When I tell you they were posting every 30 seconds all day and all night, I'm not kidding. Those threads were constantly listed at the top of "new threads" and the Omni forum.

I'm sure Randy got sick of the complaints.

This is why I support either considering games against the TOS as post padding, or putting them somewhere they don't count.

I noticed this as well.

I can think of 2 members, and actually, those 2 I blame for getting Omni posts to no longer count, that have well over 20k posts just in those threads. I think one of them may have 30k.

When I tell you they were posting every 30 seconds all day and all night, I'm not kidding. Those threads were constantly listed at the top of "new threads" and the Omni forum.

I'm sure Randy got sick of the complaints.

This is why I support either considering games against the TOS as post padding, or putting them somewhere they don't count.
If they're in their own forum, they wouldn't clutter the top of OMNI at least.

If they're in their own forum, they wouldn't clutter the top of OMNI at least.

I was thinking the same thing.

But they would clutter up the "new posts" link that many people use.

I don't, and actually didn't even know it was there, until I heard people complaining that the counting threads were always on top. That's why some people asked Omni be removed from their access.

Will this OMNI-Games forum require 180 days/180 posts for access? Yes. It would be a subforum of OMNI.

Yes. It would be a subforum of OMNI.

I guess people have to earn the right to play! :)

I'd probably strike 'the content of the previous post' & put something like 'and similar type posts' after time of day.

Vote 1:

The TalkBoard recommends creation of a Games forum under the OMNI category intended for the following types of threads:
1. Contests
2. Counting games
3. Word association games
4. Threads for posting the time of day and similar useless information
5. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become games.

The TalkBoard does not consider Lounge threads in non-OMNI forums to be Game threads. The TalkBoard recognizes that moderators of each forum shall decide whether a given thread is more valuable in that forum, in the Games forum, or in some other forum.

Vote 2:

If the Community Director creates a Games forum, the TalkBoard recommends that posts made in the Games forum be excluded from a member's post count.

But they would clutter up the "new posts" link that many people use.

I don't, and actually didn't even know it was there, until I heard people complaining that the counting threads were always on top. That's why some people asked Omni be removed from their access.
If that's a concern, is there a way to remove OMNI from that search option?
Yes. It would be a subforum of OMNI.
So, there would be no threat of people using games to increase their post count in order to access OMNI or CC, so why wouldn't posts count in that forum?
I guess people have to earn the right to play! :)
If it is part of OMNI, then there is less of a reason to not count posts, as once they can access that forum, they have the required number of posts to access all of OMNI and CC.

Vote 1:

The TalkBoard recommends creation of a Games forum under the OMNI category intended for the following types of threads:
1. Contests
2. Counting games
3. Word association games
4. Threads for posting the time of day and similar useless information
5. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become games.

The TalkBoard does not consider Lounge threads in non-OMNI forums to be Game threads. The TalkBoard recognizes that moderators of each forum shall decide whether a given thread is more valuable in that forum, in the Games forum, or in some other forum.

Vote 2:

If the Community Director creates a Games forum, the TalkBoard recommends that posts made in the Games forum be excluded from a member's post count.
Similar useless information? What are the guidelines for "similar useless information"? What may be "similar useless information" to one person can be very valuable to others.

Again, why the push to add back the inconsistency in not counting certain posts, when there is a motion currently being voted on that does away with the inconsistency?

As I posted above:

Counting OMNI posts is a benefit to posters who care about their count. IMO it's OK to count those posts because OMNI posts are often valued by readers.

However game thread posts have zero value to readers. Therefore the argument for counting those posts is completely one-sided and falls short.

Counting games posts will, I believe, cause a posting rush in game threads. This will unnecessarily degrade any remaining value to readers of the post count metric. We should prevent that.

As I said in the OP, I'd like to save the pros and cons discussion for the debate thread once the proposal goes live. For today I just want to get the wording right.

As I posted above:

Again, I ask:

I'd wager that there are some game threads that those participating would argue build community as well. Take a look at the latest "Who Will Be The Next FlyerTalk Member to Post? An OMNI Game (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/1297113-who-will-next-flyertalk-member-post-omni-game.html)," thread. It's a game thread, so it would fall into the new games forum, but there is discussion of hotels and such. Likewise, IMO, it's helping to build community, with the discussions in addition to the game.

Vote 1:

The TalkBoard recommends creation of a Games forum under the OMNI category intended for the following types of threads:
1. Contests
2. Counting games
3. Word association games
4. Threads for posting the time of day and similar useless information
5. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become games.

The TalkBoard does not consider Lounge threads in non-OMNI forums to be Game threads. The TalkBoard recognizes that moderators of each forum shall decide whether a given thread is more valuable in that forum, in the Games forum, or in some other forum.

Vote 2:

If the Community Director creates a Games forum, the TalkBoard recommends that posts made in the Games forum be excluded from a member's post count.Regarding item 3...

3. Word association gamesPerhaps "Word, food, people, alcohol and any and all other types of "association" games.

Vote 1:

The TalkBoard recommends creation of a Games forum under the OMNI category intended for the following types of threads:
1. Contests
2. Counting games
3. Word association games
4. Threads for posting the time of day and similar useless information
5. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become games.

The TalkBoard does not consider Lounge threads in non-OMNI forums to be Game threads. The TalkBoard recognizes that moderators of each forum shall decide whether a given thread is more valuable in that forum, in the Games forum, or in some other forum.

Vote 2:

If the Community Director creates a Games forum, the TalkBoard recommends that posts made in the Games forum be excluded from a member's post count.

In regard to Vote 2, I thought that a forum could count or not. Last year when the OMNI counting issue came up I thought that there was talk of Fluff could count but PR wouldn't. But that was not possible with the software?

Seems like defined a game is like defining pornography. You can't describe it but you recognize it when you see it.

Similar useless information? What are the guidelines for "similar useless information"? What may be "similar useless information" to one person can be very valuable to others.

I'd wager that there are some game threads that those participating would argue build community as well. Take a look at the latest "Who Will Be The Next FlyerTalk Member to Post? An OMNI Game (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/1297113-who-will-next-flyertalk-member-post-omni-game.html)," thread. It's a game thread, so it would fall into the new games forum, but there is discussion of hotels and such. Likewise, IMO, it's helping to build community, with the discussions in addition to the game.

I gotta backstop kipper on this one. Anyone fancy a game of Mornington Crescent? (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/231477-anyone-fancy-game-mornington-crescent.html?highlight=mornington) is another thread that defies that proposed taxonomy: it is kind of a gaming thread except that it's a community builder among a certain ... how shall we say? ... underserved subcommunity, not to mention a fascinating topic even to those unable to play the game out of cultural ignorance.

I'd urge reconsideration of the phrase "similar useless information" as unintentionally vague and possibly too divisive.

<mod hat>
Seems like defined a game is like defining pornography.
That's a pretty good analogy. I'd like to see the passage about moderator discretion revised with plainer, unequivocal language. Perhaps this:

The TalkBoard recognizes that moderators have the final word on which threads belong in their forums. </mod hat>

Will this OMNI-Games forum require 180 days/180 posts for access?

Again, why the push to add back the inconsistency in not counting certain posts, when there is a motion currently being voted on that does away with the inconsistency?
In this life, nothing is black or white. Many members just don't want members to be able to wrack up huge post counts just typing 12345 - they do find more value from post counts than you do and they want those posts that count to be something a bit more meaningful than 12345. Logic is great, but the TB members are here to represent the views of the members, not to make FT logically consistent. That way lies a lot of unhappy FT members. On this, I would consider they would be more reflective of the views of members to not have games threads counts, considering the many negative comments members used to post when posts in games threads did count.

But if you are so convinced that FT should be ruled by logic and consistency, why aren't you campaigning to have all the lounge threads closed or moved to OMNI? They are neither logical nor consistent.

I don't honestly think that the folks....however many of them there are....who play the current Game threads actually care if their posts count in those threads. None have ever come forward in either this thread or to me, as an OMNI mod, via PM to make their case. I agree about the current games players. However, when OMNI posts counted, the front page was regularly chocka full of games -which someone has just remarked, many of which have been recently bumped, and which many more people played, presumably, because posts counted (certainly, many of them vanished when posts stopped counting).

It wasn't a good situation - many of the OMNI-ites at that time hated it. Hence the fact from the beginning of the whole righteous "OMNI posts should count" I've been pushing to get this problem recognised and addressed. I'm very happy TB has listened to the fact that this has been a problem recently.

I don't also see why a games thread has to have its posts counting to have the value to the community recognised. The two threads mentioned - Mornington Crescent and WWBTNFTMTP - both of which I've played - are still games, even if they are fun and the folks who play them get more interaction than typing 12345. For me, if you like them, it doesn't matter what forums they are in in OMNI, and neither, as Cholula points out - does it matter to the players if posts count or not.

1. Contests
2. Counting games
3. Word association games
4. Threads for posting the time of day and similar useless information
5. Threads that have in the moderators' judgment become games.


This revision addresses one issue I immediately thought of: Congas in the SPAM forum are rather dependent on the previous post.

However, I would appreciate further clarification on "1. Contests". There is an entire forum for posting Free Travel Contests & Giveaways (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/free-travel-contests-sweepstakes-223/). In addition, several forums host contests/give-aways from time to time. The most recent that pops into my mind is the AA SWU giveaway for voting/posting in the RoadWarrior contest (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-aadvantage/1275123-please-help-me-grand-prize-winner-years-road-warrior-competition-6.html#post17618944).

I don't also see why a games thread has to have its posts counting to have the value to the community recognised. The two threads mentioned - Mornington Crescent and WWBTNFTMTP - both of which I've played - are still games, even if they are fun and the folks who play them get more interaction than typing 12345. For me, if you like them, it doesn't matter what forums they are in in OMNI, and neither, as Cholula points out - does it matter to the players if posts count or not.While I've only played one of these (cultural ignorance makes the other fascinating, but impossible) I would agree that it doesn't matter if posts count or not. I will continue to post (however sporatically) in threads I find interesting, informative or entertaining.

This revision addresses one issue I immediately thought of: Congas in the SPAM forum are rather dependent on the previous post.

However, I would appreciate further clarification on "1. Contests".

Try this:

Vote 1:

The TalkBoard recommends creation of a Games forum under the OMNI category intended for threads such as the following:
1. Counting games
2. Word association games
3. Threads for posting the time of day
4. FT-specific but not forum-specific contests and giveaways where posting in the thread gives you a chance to win, even if you only win bragging rights
5. Any thread that have in the moderators' judgment has become a game.

Although the moderators always have the final decision on whether and where to move any thread, in the TalkBoard's opinion Lounge threads in non-OMNI forums are not Game threads.

Vote 2:

If the Community Director creates a Games forum, the TalkBoard recommends that posts made in the Games forum be excluded from a member's post count.

Editorial comment: I believe that Dovster's wording (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/17811461-post6.html) accurately describes the intent of this proposal. Although its level of detail exceeds the scope of the TalkBoard's authority, this is very likely how the moderators would implement the proposal.

The_Banking_Scot is by far the biggest participator of the counting threads. In the count up to 100000 thread he or she only had 6700 (based on my google search pointing me to a non-FT site) of those posts.

You've missed some of the prior number counting threads. One member had 30,000 posts and another at least 20,000. That was when these types of threads occupied the front page of OMNI and every number posted did count towards your overall post count. These would have been long before you joined FT.

Here's the top three posters in just three number counting threads that I found.

Newest OMNI waste of time - count UP to 100,000 (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/647495-newest-omni-waste-time-count-up-100-000-a.html)
The _Banking_Scot 19,205
Gaucho100K 18,360
szg 12,269

Newest Omni Waste Of Time - Count Down From 100,000 (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/607689-newest-omni-waste-time-count-down-100-000-a.html)
drbond 10,039
hhoope01 9,124
BiziBB 8,238

Newest OMNI Waste the times - Count down 500,000 (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni/785700-newest-omni-waste-times-count-down-500-000-a.html)
The _Banking_Scot 13,393
KyRoamer 3,657
Circumknowitall 570

Here's the top three posters in just three number counting threads that I found.

And you know what, my opinion of those posters just went :td::td::td:

I don't understand an arguement for counting these posts in a member's post count. The consistency arguement doesn't really outline any benefits, however is it easier to list the disadvantages for counting them.

Any you know what, my opinion of those posters just went :td::td::td:

I don't understand an arguement for counting these posts in a member's post count. The consistency arguement doesn't really outline any benefits, however is it easier to list the disadvantages for counting them.
Perhaps now you can understand just why these counting games are disliked by so many people, and why Omni posts stopped counting without warning when, IMHO, Randy got fed up with the complaints.

An entire forum got ghettoized because of a few people, and hence, all this back and forth about putting it back the way it was.

Perhaps now you can understand just why these counting games are disliked by so many people, and why Omni posts stopped counting without warning when, IMHO, Randy got fed up with the complaints.

I absolutely do understand, and agree with you.
Although to be clear, I've always been for the motion that OMNI posts should count, on the basis that games threads would be moved to a seperate forum where they don't count.

This is the ultimate in "all posts must count", "end a-post-eid" hypocrisy. Either every post related to to the purpose of this forum counts, or every post counts. Segregating which off-topic posts count is just ludicrous, IMHO.

This is the ultimate in "all posts must count", "end a-post-eid" hypocrisy. Either every post related to to the purpose of this forum counts, or every post counts. Segregating which off-topic posts count is just ludicrous, IMHO.

"All off-topic posts are equal, but some off-topic posts are more equal than others."

This is the ultimate in "all posts must count", "end a-post-eid" hypocrisy. Either every post related to to the purpose of this forum counts, or every post counts. Segregating which off-topic posts count is just ludicrous, IMHO.
It's ludicrous to you, as you say in your humble opinion, but to many others, they see things differently from you and can clearly see a difference between '12345' and posts where members are talking to each other. I'm actually quite surprised you can't since it seems a simple differentiation to me, but I'll just have to accept that to you 12345=advice on a legal issue, political debate or exchange of a whole load of views.

Tell me, when you go out with friends, do you ever spend the whole evening just counting at each other?

It's ludicrous to you, as you say in your humble opinion, but to many others, they see things differently from you and can clearly see a difference between '12345' and posts where members are talking to each other. I'm actually quite surprised you can't since it seems a simple differentiation to me, but I'll just have to accept that to you 12345=advice on a legal issue, political debate or exchange of a whole load of views.

Tell me, when you go out with friends, do you ever spend the whole evening just counting at each other?

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

I can't see why some games are 'better' than other games. It's all a matter of taste and opinion. Some folks like Dungeons and Dragons, some like blackjack.

I'm really on the fence about segregating out games until a 'problem' can be established if/when OMNI posts count.

I think I am against treating a games forum differently in terms of counting.

I do think that a lot of what goes in a games forum will come down to mod judgement. 'Anyone fancy a game of Mornington Crescent?' is clearly a game...it says so in the title! @:-)

'Best. Juxtaposed. Thread titles. Ever.' Is more of a judgement call, imho.

In this life, nothing is black or white. Many members just don't want members to be able to wrack up huge post counts just typing 12345 - they do find more value from post counts than you do and they want those posts that count to be something a bit more meaningful than 12345. Logic is great, but the TB members are here to represent the views of the members, not to make FT logically consistent. That way lies a lot of unhappy FT members. On this, I would consider they would be more reflective of the views of members to not have games threads counts, considering the many negative comments members used to post when posts in games threads did count.

But if you are so convinced that FT should be ruled by logic and consistency, why aren't you campaigning to have all the lounge threads closed or moved to OMNI? They are neither logical nor consistent.

I agree about the current games players. However, when OMNI posts counted, the front page was regularly chocka full of games -which someone has just remarked, many of which have been recently bumped, and which many more people played, presumably, because posts counted (certainly, many of them vanished when posts stopped counting).

It wasn't a good situation - many of the OMNI-ites at that time hated it. Hence the fact from the beginning of the whole righteous "OMNI posts should count" I've been pushing to get this problem recognised and addressed. I'm very happy TB has listened to the fact that this has been a problem recently.

I don't also see why a games thread has to have its posts counting to have the value to the community recognised. The two threads mentioned - Mornington Crescent and WWBTNFTMTP - both of which I've played - are still games, even if they are fun and the folks who play them get more interaction than typing 12345. For me, if you like them, it doesn't matter what forums they are in in OMNI, and neither, as Cholula points out - does it matter to the players if posts count or not.
If you go back through the prior discussion on counting OMNI posts, you'll see that I did suggest that lounge threads be moved to OMNI, where posts don't count, with a sticky redirect link at the top of their original forum. That would have made those posts not count, and they would be treated logically like OMNI posts.

I'm suggesting that it makes no sense to count posts in OMNI, because it "builds community," and "makes things consistent across all forums," to then create a games forum that does not count posts, even though threads that are obviously games build community.
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

I can't see why some games are 'better' than other games. It's all a matter of taste and opinion. Some folks like Dungeons and Dragons, some like blackjack.

I'm really on the fence about segregating out games until a 'problem' can be established if/when OMNI posts count.

I think I am against treating a games forum differently in terms of counting.

I do think that a lot of what goes in a games forum will come down to mod judgement. 'Anyone fancy a game of Mornington Crescent?' is clearly a game...it says so in the title! @:-)

'Best. Juxtaposed. Thread titles. Ever.' Is more of a judgement call, imho.
I think that treating a games forum differently will in turn cause the issue to change from "count OMNI posts," to "count OMNI Games posts," and then we'll see the same sort of debate again.

I think that treating a games forum differently will in turn cause the issue to change from "count OMNI posts," to "count OMNI Games posts," and then we'll see the same sort of debate again.

I tend to agree...especially since lots of 'community-building' games will end up in that forum...

First, let me say that I'm probably one of those "jokers" that has a lot of posts in my count from playing games. And I think I'm even one of the posters listed in tom911's games list. (Though I would like to point out that not all of my posts in that game are in my post count today. A number of posts came after the OMNI change.)

With that said, I look at the situation this way. First, those who play the games are saying they don't play for the post count (i.e. they play because its fun or the player interaction, or whatever.) So they won't have any issue if there is a new "games" forum and the posts don't count there. Second, there are some who do feel that it hurts FT, their FT experience, promotes misinformation, whatever. But the end result is they just don't want "games" threads to count. And finally, there are those who just don't care either way. So whatever the solution, they aren't going to have a major problem either way.

So to me it looks like if games' posts count, some will have a problem. If game's don't count, no one really has an issue (except maybe for a philosophical 'all posts should or shouldn't count' issue. And that is probably better dealt with in a bar over the beverage of your choice.) So I just don't see any reason to NOT count games posts.

In a nutshell, there's no real downside, but there is an upside. So in an effort to build the community up, just vote to NOT count game posts.


And as I stated almost 4 years ago (both publicly in the past threads on this and through PMs), if it would help to have my post count reduced by 10K, 17K or even back to zero. Go ahead. Over time I would build it back up. It may take a few weeks to get back my access to OMNI and CC forums, but hey, I think I can live without them for a short while if it helps someone feel better.

I think that treating a games forum differently will in turn cause the issue to change from "count OMNI posts," to "count OMNI Games posts," and then we'll see the same sort of debate again.

Let's say a Games Sub Forum is created and we vote that the posts there shouldn't count while other OMNI posts do count.

I see nothing wrong with another debate on that issue as it'll be much narrower. Plus then I'd like to hear from the gamers in OMNI why THEY think their posts add value to FT and should count. None have spoken up, AFAIK, in this thread.

As I've said elsewhere, I really don't passionately care one way or the other about posts counting or not in OMNI. I'm voting for them to count in OMNI and OMNI/PR but will wait to see the debate over them counting in a Games subforum should one be created.

Let's say a Games Sub Forum is created and we vote that the posts there shouldn't count while other OMNI posts do count.

I see nothing wrong with another debate on that issue as it'll be much narrower. Plus then I'd like to hear from the gamers in OMNI why THEY think their posts add value to FT and should count. None have spoken up, AFAIK, in this thread.

As I've said elsewhere, I really don't passionately care one way or the other about posts counting or not in OMNI. I'm voting for them to count in OMNI and OMNI/PR but will wait to see the debate over them counting in a Games subforum should one be created.

The issue, as Jenbel and Kipper have alluded to, is that some game players do think their game adds value to the community while believing that others do not.

That being the case, you will end up with 'winners' whose games stay in counting OMNI and 'losers' whose games end up in a non-counting OMNI-GAMES.

My personal solution to this is to make OMNI-GAMES count, so that everyone 'wins'.

.That being the case, you will end up with 'winners' whose games stay in counting OMNI and 'losers' whose games end up in a non-counting OMNI-GAMES.

My personal solution to this is to make OMNI-GAMES count, so that everyone 'wins'.While I tend to agree with the logic, if people are truly playing those games without concern for whether they are incrementing their post count or not, then I don't think the games players are really "losing" much.

And unfortunately, it seems there are some who feel they will be "losing" a lot if those games do count. So as I mentioned, sometimes it might be better to look at which decision will cause more "emotional" hurt rather than taking the "its more logical" approach.

And don't forget the wise saying "Pick your battles". If, and to those outside of the TB, its still an 'if', the battle has been won for counting OMNI and other forums, maybe its better to give a little. And if, again its still and if, there becomes a Games forum, maybe its better to not fight the "should posts count" there battle. Maybe this is the middle ground that will help the community come together.

My personal solution to this is to make OMNI-GAMES count, so that everyone 'wins'.

The people who don't win here, IMO, are the overwhelming majority I've heard from that don't think counting "12345" as a helpful post should count.

As other have said, we've only heard from a small subset of FT members in this thread but I give their opinion a lot of credibility as they are perhaps more passionate than other FT'ers about how FT should operate.

Since there is a difference of opinion even among TB members as to whether Games posts should count I think that's a good reason to have two votes on this issue.

1. Should a Games Sub-Forum be created?

2. Should posts count in the Games Sub-Forum.

Obviously if #1 doesn't pass, #2 is a moot point.

The people who don't win here, IMO, are the overwhelming majority I've heard from that don't think counting "12345" as a helpful post should count.

As other have said, we've only heard from a small subset of FT members in this thread but I give their opinion a lot of credibility as they are perhaps more passionate than other FT'ers about how FT should operate.

Since there is a difference of opinion even among TB members as to whether Games posts should count I think that's a good reason to have two votes on this issue.

1. Should a Games Sub-Forum be created?

2. Should posts count in the Games Sub-Forum.

Obviously if #1 doesn't pass, #2 is a moot point.
I would hope that consistency would be implemented throughout FT and not immediately tossed out the window again.

The people who don't win here, IMO, are the overwhelming majority I've heard from that don't think counting "12345" as a helpful post should count.



But you ignored the overwhelming majority when deciding to support the counting of OMNI posts.

But you ignored the overwhelming majority when deciding to support the counting of OMNI posts.

You're referring to this specific thread?

Speaking for myself I considered the input in this thread, but I also considered the input in the previous thread about the topic when it was discussed last summer, as well as the 2 polls that were run in the Omnis last summer, as well as the discussion threads re: the topics in the summer, as well as the discussions in the Omnis back then & recently. And all of those were not 'overwhemlingly against/majority'.

Cheers.

Please note that there are now 2 separate votes going re: this topic: one to create a games forum in Omni & one to make that forum a non-counting forum. I would suggest that people post in those threads.

Create Games Forum Under Omni Category

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1303907-comments-welcome-voting-underway-create-games-forum-under-omni-category.html

Make Games Forum a Non-Counting Posts Forum

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/talkboard-topics/1303909-comments-welcome-voting-underway-non-counting-posts-games-forum.html

Cheers.

You're referring to this specific thread?

Speaking for myself I considered the input in this thread, but I also considered the input in the previous thread about the topic when it was discussed last summer, as well as the 2 polls that were run in the Omnis last summer, as well as the discussion threads re: the topics in the summer, as well as the discussions in the Omnis back then & recently. And all of those were not 'overwhemlingly against/majority'.

Cheers.

I was referring specifically to Cholula

Nothing I would waste any time on-- even this message !

Bob H

I'm really on the fence about segregating out games until a 'problem' can be established if/when OMNI posts count.<general member hat> Concur. In this or any other case I see wisdom in TB formulating a solid contingency proposal but staying the motion until its necessity becomes clear.
</gen mem hat>

I do think that a lot of what goes in a games forum will come down to mod judgement. 'Anyone fancy a game of Mornington Crescent?' is clearly a game...it says so in the title! @:-)

'Best. Juxtaposed. Thread titles. Ever.' Is more of a judgement call, imho.

<mod hat>Threads evolve, parallel discussions arise and thread titles usually reflect only the original poster's intent.

With respect to judgment calls, isn't that always the case in a forum with two or more participants?

</gen mem hat>

Will this OMNI-Games forum require 180 days/180 posts for access?

Again, why the push to add back the inconsistency in not counting certain posts, when there is a motion currently being voted on that does away with the inconsistency?

Is anyone else incredulous that TB, in the midst of voting for a measure that would make all posts count, is considering bringing forward a measure that would again create a subset of posts that would not count?

I've been offline for the past ten or so days buried under an intense project at work, so I haven't had the chance until now to respond, but I did want to quickly point out that the proposal we voted on and passed to allow all posts to count was worded that way primarily because it was the simplest way to get the job done. I don't recall any discussion (private or public) that the motion was worded that way out of some idealistic stance, so the arguments posed by the two posters quoted above really aren't germane to this particular motion.