Online Travel Booking and Bidding Agencies - The travel agent did not notify me about flight cancellation in time

Hi all,

I had a booking with air baltic Yerevan-Warsaw with a change in Riga, to be departed on the 17th of September, booked via orbitz.com. On the 7th of September I received an e-mail from orbitz mentioning a significant change in my itinerary, asking to call them. Then they told me that Yerevan-Riga portion of the flight is cancelled and the only option that airline provided was refund. EU regulation 261/2004 defines a compensation in that case since I was not notified about the flight cancellation about at least 2 weeks in advance. I talked both to orbitz and to air baltic several times. Baltics claim they cancelled the flight on the 8th of July and notified orbitz immediately. They also mention that orbitz did not provide them my contact information so that they could inform me about the flight cancellation directly. Orbitz on the other hand claims that they notified me as soon as they received corresponding notice from the carrier. At first I was inclined to believe orbitz and sent a complaint to Latvian consumer rights protection centre. Recently they told me that they have requested an explanation from the air company. Today I got the final answer where they state that air baltic has provided a documentary evidence concerning notifying orbitz about flight cancellation on the 8th of July. This time I do not think they would lie. So, now I am going to complain to Orbitz again. Just wanted to ask if there is any law that obligates a travel agent to forward me flight cancellation information, received from the air carrier, immediately. And generally, any advice regarding this situation would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Welcome to FT!

Just wanted to ask if there is any law that obligates a travel agent to forward me flight cancellation information, received from the air carrier, immediately.
I don't think so. Even airlines have no requirement to notify you. I always check my reservations daily.

Did you ever look at your reservation on the airline's webpage? I am unclear how the airline could have no contact information for you.

In any case, I am very uncertain that Orbitz has to comply with EU regulation 261/2004 . They are not an airline and they are a US company. Will admit that I am shaky on these regulations.

Orbitz will continue to state they notified you once they received it from the airline.

The airline will continue to say they sent it months before Orbitz says they got it.

All the airline can do is prove they sent something, not that it was received or when it was received.

It's a hard lesson learned, but it's up to you to check your reservations on a regular basis. I would say that if you booked directly with the airline or with a third party like Orbitz.

It's a hard lesson learned, but it's up to you to check your reservations on a regular basis.

Wrong.

EU regulations clearly states that the burden of proof lies upon the operating carrier for notification to avoid comp. TA or alliance partner issuing the ticket is only a contractor of the airline.

You are entitled to EU comp from the carrier, all the airline can do is to seek their expenses from TA.

I note that your NEB has denied the claim based on the date of the carriers notification to Orbitz. It might be they didnt have the full picture, as you are responsible for backin your claim by the relevant fact.

In any case they are wrong.

Unfortunately these things happen too often, because pax dont know their rights, dont present their claims right, or at the end dont hav enough time or money to fight it, risk considered.

It's not wrong to check your reservations. You may believe it's wrong, but simply looking online or calling the airline to confirm in the months before the flight would have prevented much of this hassle.

It's stupid to book something months ahead of time and just show up without ever checking to see if something changed.

For those who want to fly hassle free, or to not argue with clerks at the rental counter or hotel check in desk, check your reservations from time to time before you show up, so should something go wrong or a schedule change, you know about it in advance.

For those who take no responsibility at all for any of their travel, just sit back and wait for the airline, hotel, or rental agency to contact you.

It's insane for anybody to suggest that it's wrong to check and confirm your airline reservations for any changes.

There is no reason to be rude throwing around "stupid", "insane" etc. Thats rather disrespectful.

Its not wrong to check your reservations, to take responsibility etc, but it is wrong to mislead newbies, giving false impressions its their responsibilty when its clearly the airlines.

The more important the trip is the more I also advise people to regularly check these things. But I am specifically talking about flights regulated by EU regulations- which I see you have limited experience with. If you have the slightest flexibility, I advise people to sit back and relax - as travellers normally should- as due to the EU regulations you can- and you will avoid pre travel regular checking, and be taken care of by your contract counterpart - the airline

It is insane, and it is stupid.

I didn't say anybody posting to the thread was either.

I never said it was not the airline's responsibility, nor do you have any clue what I do and don't have experience with.

If you actually read my reply, I gave no advice what so ever about the airlines responsibility or any EU regulations.

Sorry my posts are so irritating to you today. But the fact remains.

1) The airline clearly said they passed the notification on in time
2) Orbitz said they passed it on as soon as they got it, which was six weeks later.

My answer was simply had the OP checked the reservations, it would not have become the issue it was.

You can say what you want, but it's the most basic of facts. It's up to the travelers to take some responsibility for their reservations and check them from time to time.

You quoted me and said that's wrong advice. I don't care, it's not wrong advice.

If it makes you so incredibly happy to follow me around tonight posting this total crap so be it, but I'm sticking to my very simple and clear statement, which apparently was over your head.

When people make a reservation during the months before they take the trip, they should check that reservation.

You believe that the airline will let them know. Well guess what, as clearly indicated here, sometimes they don't have the necessary information.

Go ahead, argue some more that it's wrong for people to check their reservations, it's been so entertaining tonight with your harassment over the simplest of things.

It's incredibly silly to post in a thread that the airline and your contract counterpart will take care of you and you should avoid pre travel checking in a thread that clearly explains why that's that's not very good advice.

But since comprehension may be an issue, I'll spell it out.

Had the OP checked, they would have known
Since they didn't check, no matter what the EU regulations are, they didn't know for six weeks or so and were screwed.

You believe it's OK they were screwed, I believe it could have been prevented, but then again I can divide by two also.

You believe it's OK they were screwed, I believe it could have been prevented, but then again I can divide by two also.

I don't think that is what travelkid said. In fact, seemed to say they're entitled to compensation.

I know I will check flights before the day of the flight, but otherwise, don't obsessively check flights, unless it's DL, since they love to take your seats away.

I don't think that is what travelkid said. In fact, seemed to say they're entitled to compensation.

I know I will check flights before the day of the flight, but otherwise, don't obsessively check flights, unless it's DL, since they love to take your seats away.

Please show where I said to obsessively check flights? There was a period of well over a month from when the flight was cancelled until the OP found out about it. Had they checked once (not obsessively) they would have known about the cancellation way before Orbitz found out about it.

The two of you are enjoying this little pile up tonight. But the simple fact remains.

1) Had the OP checked their flights, even once, not obsessionally, they would have known it was cancelled
2) Because the OP did not check their flights, there was a delay of like two months minus a day before they found out about it.

If you feel that's acceptable, please continue not to waste your time checking your flights.

Personally, instead of waiting till a week before flight time to find out my flight is no more when it's been canceled for two months already, I prefer to check.

If that makes me obsessive, so be it.

I can't believe people are actually arguing that if you have reservations you should not check them from time to time to make sure they are still what you expect. But it's not the first time tonight I've been stunned by the incredible views of people posting here.

1. Everybody assumes that Orbitz is acting as a TA in this particular case. We don't know that. Orbitz may well have bought a block of seats or even more likely bought a seat from a middle-man who bought a block of seats. Not everybody who sells seats is an "agent."

2. The point here is that there is no requirement that you look in both directions before you cross the street. If you are hit by a drunk, the drunk is still liable and you may or may not collect from him. But, you are still in the hospital in pain.

Same thing with travel (air, hotel, car). OP may or may not be entitled to compensation and if entitled, may or may not someday see some of that compensation. But, the fact is that he isn't traveling as he intended and that can't be fixed. He doesn't need to check the carrier's website, 6 times a day, but it is common sense to check on a regular basis. And, whether that's the way it ought to be or not, it is the way it is.

Thanks all for the answers.
I totally agree that checking the reservation time to time is a good idea. It was just the first time I had to deal with flight cancellation and I was under impression that I would receive a notification as soon as a change in flight occurs. I checked the flight once in Amadeus website (checkmytrip.com) after purchasing the ticket and that's all. From now on I will do regular checks, as I really prefer to book my flights well in advance.
Nevertheless, things have happened and I cannot change them. What I wanted to know is whether I am eligible to compensation in this case.

It's a hard lesson learned, but it's up to you to check your reservations on a regular basis.

Please show where I said to obsessively check flights?
.....
If that makes me obsessive, so be it.

On a regular basis, obsessively- its word play- and a thin red line. Your patronizing posting style makes it easy to put a bit more into the words than it could have been if used in regular respectful polite way.

In any case please show where he said anything about you saying it was obsessive to check flights?? He is ONLY talking about himself- not about you.

I know I will check flights before the day of the flight, but otherwise, don't obsessively check flights, unless it's DL, since they love to take your seats away.



Nevertheless, things have happened and I cannot change them. What I wanted to know is whether I am eligible to compensation in this case.

Unlike cordelli, I have at least tried to answer your question, and not become normative, bashing OP.

1. Everybody assumes that Orbitz is acting as a TA in this particular case. We don't know that. Orbitz may well have bought a block of seats or even more likely bought a seat from a middle-man who bought a block of seats. Not everybody who sells seats is an "agent."

Excactly- and this is why the EU regulations put the burde of proof on the operating carrier- giving them responsibility for ALL their contractor, whatever form they may be in.

Of course you might also have a contractual claim against Orbitz or TA, possibly for expenses falling outside EU regulations etc, but thats off topic here.

2. The point here is that there is no requirement that you look in both directions before you cross the street. If you are hit by a drunk, the drunk is still liable and you may or may not collect from him. But, you are still in the hospital in pain.

Same thing with travel (air, hotel, car). OP may or may not be entitled to compensation and if entitled, may or may not someday see some of that compensation. But, the fact is that he isn't traveling as he intended and that can't be fixed. He doesn't need to check the carrier's website, 6 times a day, but it is common sense to check on a regular basis. And, whether that's the way it ought to be or not, it is the way it is.

Well put, and thats also why I said:
The more important the trip is the more I also advise people to regularly check these things. But I am specifically talking about flights regulated by EU regulations-.....


To put it this way, if I am going solo on a 3 weeks vacation, I dont care too much if Im delayed a day or 2. Instead of wasting my time checking flight either on a regular basis or obsessively, I lean back and deal with it at the airport- because I know the rules. This might not work for the inexperienced, or as said the more important the specific flight is. Thats what the airlines take advantage of.

It is insane, and it is stupid.

I didn't say anybody posting to the thread was either.

You are saying not checking is stupid/insane without naming anyone yes- but the OP is coming for help admitting he did not check. Logical skills are clearly not the same as mathematical skills:rolleyes:

I never said it was not the airline's responsibility, nor do you have any clue what I do and don't have experience with.

My clues are based on your style, your reply, and partly your location- in addition of course to the fact that I always give others the benefit of doubt and do a posters search. In your case it revealed little travel knowledge (checked a few pages). That may be totally wrong but my perception remains until you are able to help out by posting, preferrably in a polite way.

If you actually read my reply, I gave no advice what so ever about the airlines responsibility or any EU regulations.

And this is the problem, instead of answering the question, you come here almost insulting OP and others, bashing them in a normative way. Im glad my flame shield is stronger, but if I was the newbie, receiving this from a mod, I would have agreed with your own words, stupid and insane:confused:

Sorry my posts are so irritating to you today. But the fact remains.

1) The airline clearly said they passed the notification on in time
2) Orbitz said they passed it on as soon as they got it, which was six weeks later.

My answer was simply had the OP checked the reservations, it would not have become the issue it was.

You can say what you want, but it's the most basic of facts. It's up to the travelers to take some responsibility for their reservations and check them from time to time.

You quoted me and said that's wrong advice. I don't care, it's not wrong advice.

If it makes you so incredibly happy to follow me around tonight posting this total crap so be it, but I'm sticking to my very simple and clear statement, which apparently was over your head.

When people make a reservation during the months before they take the trip, they should check that reservation.

You believe that the airline will let them know. Well guess what, as clearly indicated here, sometimes they don't have the necessary information.

Go ahead, argue some more that it's wrong for people to check their reservations, it's been so entertaining tonight with your harassment over the simplest of things.

It's incredibly silly to post in a thread that the airline and your contract counterpart will take care of you and you should avoid pre travel checking in a thread that clearly explains why that's that's not very good advice.

But since comprehension may be an issue, I'll spell it out.

Had the OP checked, they would have known
Since they didn't check, no matter what the EU regulations are, they didn't know for six weeks or so and were screwed.

You believe it's OK they were screwed, I believe it could have been prevented, but then again I can divide by two also.


Sorry my posts are so irritating to you today. But the fact remains.

1) The airline clearly said they passed the notification on in time
2) Orbitz said they passed it on as soon as they got it, which was six weeks later.

Have I or others denied this? No. The fact that remain is the EU comp regulation (I have a distinct feeling you have not read it?). That states very clearly- in english for you to read, as well as all other official EU languages- that the burden of prrof for notifying the passenger is on the operating carrier. Period. Is this difficult to understand?

You quoted me and said that's wrong advice. I don't care, it's not wrong advice.

Your reply does not answer OPs question, and is not helpful. Thats whats wrong, and you leave him hanging giving the impression he si to blame and have no recourse. Yes thats wrong.

If it makes you so incredibly happy to follow me around tonight posting this total crap so be it, but I'm sticking to my very simple and clear statement, which apparently was over your head.

We have happened to post on two - 2 - of the same threads. On one Im the OP with a genuine concern where you come around with this tone as well, seeming to be your MO. On this thread- Im trying to help out on questions which happen to be the subject of my master thesis. You on the other hand?

Posting "crap"? I hope and guess others are more than able to see the distinctions here, and read what you ramble about.

You believe that the airline will let them know. Well guess what, as clearly indicated here, sometimes they don't have the necessary information.

Obviously, but this is the exception. Pax are responsible to provide correct contact data when they book. Otherwise they can not claim notice. Lots of the requirements in the EU regulation do not require notice though.

And also the airline is responsible for its contractors and subcontractors. If the airline fail to gather contact data, which pax has give to TA, well the carrier will end up responsible.

... it's been so entertaining tonight with your harassment over the simplest of things.

Yes as I have tried to spoonfeed you, it is actually very simple.

It's incredibly silly to post in a thread that the airline and your contract counterpart will take care of you

And you are not naming? Your remark about comprehension seems rather misplaced. In any case my point is that the carriers should take care of you, but as said thats not always the case, you need to be able to enforce your rights, and be willing to risk delays. And in case its still not clear for you- this issue has arised post-travel for OP.

You believe it's OK they were screwed, I believe it could have been prevented, but then again I can divide by two also.

Others have posted they understood this. I believe its OK they couldnt fly if they didnt check, but more important they are entitled to EU comp, and possibly other recourse with TA. Covered rerouting etc.

Happy that you are able to divide by two- seems to be your biggest advantage and acheivement^

If OP want to discuss this in a more civilized form, you are welcome to contact me^ However it might be too late, based on how the case proceeded and the time frame.

Let me add than IMO Orbitz are known to have a very good CS- so reaching out to them might work out both some settlement and them improving their routines.

Let me add than IMO Orbitz are known to have a very good CS- so reaching out to them might work out both some settlement and them improving their routines.
-1. I would never book through a third-party site unless there aer very significant savings and I then verify everything through each operating carrier. No matter how seamless we think that modern technology is, it isn't.

In this particular case I needed an open-jaw ticket (flying to Warsaw, returning from Stockholm). Air baltic website simply does not provide such option.

You are saying not checking is stupid/insane without naming anyone yes- but the OP is coming for help admitting he did not check. Logical skills are clearly not the same as mathematical skills:rolleyes:

My clues are based on your style, your reply, and partly your location- in addition of course to the fact that I always give others the benefit of doubt and do a posters search. In your case it revealed little travel knowledge (checked a few pages). That may be totally wrong but my perception remains until you are able to help out by posting, preferrably in a polite way.

And this is the problem, instead of answering the question, you come here almost insulting OP and others, bashing them in a normative way. Im glad my flame shield is stronger, but if I was the newbie, receiving this from a mod, I would have agreed with your own words, stupid and insane:confused:

Have I or others denied this? No. The fact that remain is the EU comp regulation (I have a distinct feeling you have not read it?). That states very clearly- in english for you to read, as well as all other official EU languages- that the burden of prrof for notifying the passenger is on the operating carrier. Period. Is this difficult to understand?

Your reply does not answer OPs question, and is not helpful. Thats whats wrong, and you leave him hanging giving the impression he si to blame and have no recourse. Yes thats wrong.

We have happened to post on two - 2 - of the same threads. On one Im the OP with a genuine concern where you come around with this tone as well, seeming to be your MO. On this thread- Im trying to help out on questions which happen to be the subject of my master thesis. You on the other hand?

Posting "crap"? I hope and guess others are more than able to see the distinctions here, and read what you ramble about.

Obviously, but this is the exception. Pax are responsible to provide correct contact data when they book. Otherwise they can not claim notice. Lots of the requirements in the EU regulation do not require notice though.

And also the airline is responsible for its contractors and subcontractors. If the airline fail to gather contact data, which pax has give to TA, well the carrier will end up responsible.

Yes as I have tried to spoonfeed you, it is actually very simple.

And you are not naming? Your remark about comprehension seems rather misplaced. In any case my point is that the carriers should take care of you, but as said thats not always the case, you need to be able to enforce your rights, and be willing to risk delays. And in case its still not clear for you- this issue has arised post-travel for OP.

Others have posted they understood this. I believe its OK they couldnt fly if they didnt check, but more important they are entitled to EU comp, and possibly other recourse with TA. Covered rerouting etc.

Happy that you are able to divide by two- seems to be your biggest advantage and acheivement^

If OP want to discuss this in a more civilized form, you are welcome to contact me^ However it might be too late, based on how the case proceeded and the time frame.

I will once again simply state the most basic of facts.

Had they checked they would have known
As they didn't check, they did not find out until a week before flight time

You can post novels about how smart you are but the simple facts remain.

Had they checked they would have known. That's not wrong, and clearly their contract counterpart did not contact them as they did not have contact information.

I said it's up to them to check their reservations, you said that was wrong. You also said "you will avoid pre travel regular checking, and be taken care of by your contract counterpart ", which given this thread is about that not happening, is also wrong.

Your continued attacks because I said the passenger needs to check their reservations, even though you wrote an essay about it is just plain dumb. Nobody can seriously argue that it's wrong for a passenger to check their reservations or that they will always be taken care of by their contract counterpart because that's the law, especially in a thread where that clearly was not the case. Well apparently somebody can try.

I'm sure you will come back with another book of how much of an idiot I am and why nothing I say is right, but I'll state it once again.

Had they checked they would have known
If they listen to you where it s wrong to check and they will always be notified because you wrote an essay about it, well we know how that turned out.

In this particular case I needed an open-jaw ticket (flying to Warsaw, returning from Stockholm). Air baltic website simply does not provide such option.
When you had trouble booking on the website, that is a clue that there is a problem with the itinerary you want. The first thing to do is to call Air Baltic. A list of its various telephone #'s in Europe is at the link (which is available under "Contact Us" on its website.

I am always shocked at how many people run into an issue, but don't start with a call.

http://www.airbaltic.com/public/questions.html

-1. I would never book through a third-party site unless there aer very significant savings and I then verify everything through each operating carrier. No matter how seamless we think that modern technology is, it isn't.

As much as I agree with you, we are talking about different things.
I wont recommend Orbitz and other 3rd party sites, unless as you say there are significant savings, OR it its the only practical option.

OP had such a situation. The same goes with for instance many multi carrier itineraries. Its better to avoid the middleman if you dont have too.

But here the .... happened, and we are here for the medicine. In this case, AFTER the problem occured I mean Orbitz are normally pretty good at fixing things.

Chekc over at the hotel deals thread, where Orbitz has worked hard to honor the recent 20$ mistake at Sheraton Seoul. That is now honored, and kudos to Orbitz.

When you had trouble booking on the website, that is a clue that there is a problem with the itinerary you want. The first thing to do is to call Air Baltic. A list of its various telephone #'s in Europe is at the link (which is available under "Contact Us" on its website.

I am always shocked at how many people run into an issue, but don't start with a call.

http://www.airbaltic.com/public/questions.html

It seems a call during the booking process wouldnt have helped anything. The problem booking the open-jaw etc is not related to later problems due to cancellations.

Cordelli, I have never stated its wrong to check ones reservations. But its wrong that its up to the passenger to do so (regarding flights within EU regulations). Its up to the operating carrier. I have also very clearly specified that it may be smart to check yourself, and more so in specific situations. However this thread is about liability and problems occured, not about your travel moralizing. Your travel smartness (or lack thereof) has absolute no relevance for OPs question, and is not even touching his question.

Link here;
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:046:0001:0007:en:PDF

Quotes;
"Where an operating air carrier which has no contract with
the passenger performs obligations under this Regulation, it
shall be regarded as doing so on behalf of the person having a
contract with that passenger."

"The burden of proof concerning the questions as to
whether and when the passenger has been informed of the
cancellation of the flight shall rest with the operating air
carrier."

Let me know if you need further references, or which part you dont understand.


There are several official language version available as you simply refuse to understand plain english.

This information is gathered and posted in a helpful manner. However one cant argue with someone claiming the earth is flat. Hopefully others can benefit from this.