KLM Flying Dutchman - KLM flights to Indonesia why not nonstop ?

Flights KL 837 (AMS-SIN-CGK) and KL 835 (AMS-SIN-DPS) and back make a stop in SIN. Why ? Usually most flights to SE (HKG, BKK, SIN, KUL) Asia are nonstop and as there enough flights AMS-SIN (KL and SQ every day at least one). Is it not allowed by Indonesian or Singapore government to use their air space without landing ?
A flight AMS-Bali would take 14 hours instead of 16 with stop in SIN and conserve lots of fuel and the aircraft used (772) are able to fly that distance nonstop.

It looks like KLM now have

AMS-KUL-CGK
AMS-SIN-DPS

Since they have 5th freedom rights on the 2nd leg of each flight, the economics on the route (if AMS-DPS is a low-demand market) might be such that a stop generates more revenue, since they can sell tickets AMS-SIN, SIN-DPS, and AMS-DPS instead of just AMS-DPS.

I'm not sure if there is necessarily a fuel savings on a non-stop. The fuel cost to fly the plane a km increases exponentially.

Perhaps because CGK and DPS are not long haul PREMIUM markets, and as stated above they can make good money on the fifth freedom rights.

Probably KLM doesn't think there is enough traffic to these destinations to justify a dedicated flight. IT seems that even GA does not have a nonstop between CGK/DPS and AMS.

As this appears specific to KLM, please follow the thread as it moves to that airline's forum. Ocn Vw 1K, Moderator, TravelBuzz.

Currently, Indonesia is only reachable with at least one stop (although that'll change with GA's 773's). Mind that the CGK flight stops in KUL. So KLM combines 2 large Asian cities (with a 77W IIRC).
As others commented, maybe the direct CGK flight isn't profitable. It would also mean they'd have to add another flight to KUL. So the combination of two cities seems to be the most economical if the yields don't allow for two non-stops.
KLM has indeed 5th freedom rights between KUL-CGK and SIN-DPS.

Bear in mind that a flight over 12/13 hrs becomes ultra long haul and will impact the crew's working hours and rest times. If a flight gets delayed, it will be easier to reach the maximum stretch of crew operating hours which can give complications in rotations and staffing. ( on a side note maybe the FA union negotiated the stop in SIN as a well earned perk of the job :p)

There is definitely no fuel saving if you have a non-stop as all the fuel needed for the flight from SIN to DPS would have to be carried all the way from AMS, which would need loads of extra fuel just for the transport of the fuel. (And that extra fuel would have to be carried all the way from AMS too, which would lead to even more extra fuel, and so on.)
This is why there exist no non-stops between Europe and Australia, for example.

In our case I reckon the stops are mainly a question of demand. Once GA has become part of ST and CGK has gown as a hub, KL will certainly offer AMS-CGK non-stops.

Nonstop KLM service between Amsterdam and Jakarta is but a matter of time, and could happen as soon as later this year. There are no plans for nonstop Denpasar service. However, KLM will likely start nonstop flights to Taipei, while nonstop Manila service will be halted in favor of a tag on service.

Bear in mind that a flight over 12/13 hrs becomes ultra long haul and will impact the crew's working hours and rest times. If a flight gets delayed, it will be easier to reach the maximum stretch of crew operating hours which can give complications in rotations and staffing. ( on a side note maybe the FA union negotiated the stop in SIN as a well earned perk of the job :p)

For that reason airlines have two sets of crew and special rest beds for the resting crew on flights longer than 8 hours ?
However, SQ has flights of 17 hrs duration (LAX-SIN and EWR-SIN) , look in the table 'longest flights' of
this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-stop_flight#Longest_flights) .

Do they have three sets of crew on these flights ?

There is definitely no fuel saving if you have a non-stop as all the fuel needed for the flight from SIN to DPS would have to be carried all the way from AMS, which would need loads of extra fuel just for the transport of the fuel. (And that extra fuel would have to be carried all the way from AMS too, which would lead to even more extra fuel, and so on.)Precisely. That's why the A340-500, specifically designed for ultra-longhaul operations, has not been a succes. With kerosine prices high, it is almost impossible to operate profitably on the type of routes it was intended for.

Johan

Interesting arguments. But from a travelers pov...

SQ is going to operate the 77W planes with the all new J and F to Amsterdam (The same amazing flatbed seats/F suites as on their A380).

I usually fly J on long haul. Now. Add to that the amazing, pleasant and efficient airport Changi is. For me it's a no brainer what to take to Indonesia...

2-3-2 on a slippery slope against 1-2-1 on a spacious flatbed for similar prices and both a stop? :rolleyes:

Honestly. I might change my mind if KL would fly directly to CGK.

Interesting arguments. But from a travelers pov...

SQ is going to operate the 77W planes with the all new J and F to Amsterdam (The same amazing flatbed seats/F suites as on their A380).

I usually fly J on long haul. Now. Add to that the amazing, pleasant and efficient airport Changi is. For me it's a no brainer what to take to Indonesia...

2-3-2 on a slippery slope against 1-2-1 on a spacious flatbed for similar prices and both a stop? :rolleyes:

Honestly. I might change my mind if KL would fly directly to CGK.

F suites on SQ 77W? is that something new? the F seats on the 77W are pretty nice but it is not really a suite. I have never tried the SQ suite but did with the EK ones, I think I prefer the SQ "open F on 77W" cabin atmosphere.

SQ is going to operate the 77W planes with the all new J and F to Amsterdam (The same amazing flatbed seats/F suites as on their A380).


When is this due to start? And do you have a source? Thanks.

A flight AMS-Bali would take 14 hours instead of 16 with stop in SIN and conserve lots of fuel and the aircraft used (772) are able to fly that distance nonstop.

That's right on the edge of the B777-200ER's envelope. I don't have my range/payload chart in front of me, but at that length the airplane wouldn't be carrying too much cargo (well actually it would be carrying lots of cargo, in the form of Jet A-1 fuel). The powers that be at the airline put the stop in there so that they could carry a decent amount of cargo to SIN in place of two extra hours of fuel.

When is this due to start? And do you have a source? Thanks.

See here. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/klm-flying-dutchman/1295863-more-competition-klm-sq-deploy-b77w-ams-route.html)

It looks like KLM now have

AMS-KUL-CGK
AMS-SIN-DPS

Since they have 5th freedom rights on the 2nd leg of each flight, the economics on the route (if AMS-DPS is a low-demand market) might be such that a stop generates more revenue, since they can sell tickets AMS-SIN, SIN-DPS, and AMS-DPS instead of just AMS-DPS.

I'm not sure if there is necessarily a fuel savings on a non-stop. The fuel cost to fly the plane a km increases exponentially.

LH also serves CGK via SIN from FRA.

LH also serves CGK via SIN from FRA.

MUC-SIN-CGK since they introduced the A380 on FRA-SIN actually.

When is this due to start? And do you have a source? Thanks.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/klm-flying-dutchman/1295863-more-competition-klm-sq-deploy-b77w-ams-route.html

You can trust HW-IBC as a very reliable source. But if you're still in doubt: have a go at SQ's booking engine ;)

It seems that even GA does not have a nonstop between CGK/DPS and AMS.

Correct, they stop in DXB but so far as I know this is only because the A332s which they currently use for that route can't do it in one go. I believe this is a temporary situation until they get 773s (or 77Ws, I'm not sure) as replacements for those birds.

Correct, they stop in DXB but so far as I know this is only because the A332s which they currently use for that route can't do it in one go. I believe this is a temporary situation until they get 773s (or 77Ws, I'm not sure) as replacements for those birds.

Yep, scheduled for 2013.

MUC-SIN-CGK since they introduced the A380 on FRA-SIN actually.

Shows how dated my info is; thanks.

I understand from KLM corporate Indonesia that the current situation is purely based on revenue (AMS-CKG is in the top 5 of their most profitable routes, especially since Japan and Middle East are not bringing enough revenue) and from Garuda corporate I understand they indeed have plans to have direct flights in 2013 although they have problems filling their seats on their current route (CKG-DBX-AMS).

Garuda announced today that due to economical reasons, they will reduce the flights AMS-DXB-CGK from 7x a week to 4x a week. High season is exempted.

So there must be a lot of competition already to Indonesia I guess. Hope it will not affect the bigger 777-300 non-stops.

F suites on SQ 77W? is that something new? the F seats on the 77W are pretty nice but it is not really a suite. I have never tried the SQ suite but did with the EK ones, I think I prefer the SQ "open F on 77W" cabin atmosphere.

You are right. My mistake. The 77W doesn't have suites. But it does have the mega-spacious business 1-2-1 business class.

Btw. I agree with you. I am not a big fan of "coffin" like setups. I like lounge spacious setups more. Interestingly AF succeeds very well in that in their F cabin.

More likely I end up in J though ;)

Lufthansa is cancelling all flights to CGK as per October 2012.
They fail to compete with Emirates and the likes on this route.
Amazing to see that Lufthansa drops an emerging market with 200 million people plus.

May be KLM gets a better position to wards CGK and the direct flight CGK-AMS gets nearer.

The impression I got from KLM is that these flights are quite full, probably also the reason they are adding an extra 3 weekly flight to KUL.

On a separate note, the price of flights between KUL and CGK are pretty cheap. You can pretty much travel KLM WBC for the price of MH Economy. No need to guess what I chose for that upcoming trip ;)

Lufthansa is cancelling all flights to CGK as per October 2012.
They fail to compete with Emirates and the likes on this route.
Amazing to see that Lufthansa drops an emerging market with 200 million people plus.

May be KLM gets a better position to wards CGK and the direct flight CGK-AMS gets nearer.
It's a bit different for KLM versus LH, given the historic association between the Netherlands and Indonesia. I don't know whether it's still true, but at some point, citizens of Indonesia needed a visa for West Germany but not for the Netherlands.

It's a bit different for KLM versus LH, given the historic association between the Netherlands and Indonesia. I don't know whether it's still true, but at some point, citizens of Indonesia needed a visa for West Germany but not for the Netherlands.

Two remarks:

1) Germany has a lot of business cotacts with Indonesia, equal to China.
2) There are no visa differences between The Netherlands and Germany re: Indonesian people. Both countries are part of the so-called Schengen area and all Boarder controls are synchronist.

It's a bit different for KLM versus LH, given the historic association between the Netherlands and Indonesia.Memories of the colonial era, which was not viewed in a postive light by most Indonesians, have long since faded. 40+ years ago this might have been a factor, but only a miniscule minority of Indonesian now alive have any personal ties to the Netherlands.

Johan

With the imminent discontinuation of LH service to CGK, and Garuda's forthcoming entrance into SkyTeam it seems now or never for nonstop KL flights between AMS and CGK. KL had already decided on reinforced frequencies to KUL, with 10 weekly flights (daily AMS KUL CGK + 3 weekly KUL terminator) and I believe the airline may well reverse this decision and operate dedicated terminator services to both KUL and CGK, in cooperation with MH and GA respectively.

The void left by Lufthansa's departure may of course be quickly filled by the Middle Eastern carriers. EK is currently operating twice daily into CGK, QR has 10 weekly CGK flight as well as a daily DPS tag to one of its SIN trips, and EY operates a daily terminator into CGK. Then there is also TK to be considered; the airline is now operating a daily SIN CGK tag, but has repeatedly said it will route its planned Australia operation via CGK, thus making CGK a nonstop destination from its IST hub. I know for a fact that EK is looking at expanding its presence in Indonesia.

That said, now seems to be as opportune a time as ever for KL to launch a nonstop operation, which I presume would come with a daylight return trip, along the lines of the former nonstop AMS MNL schedule.

With the imminent discontinuation of LH service to CGK, and Garuda's forthcoming entrance into SkyTeam it seems now or never for nonstop KL flights between AMS and CGK. KL had already decided on reinforced frequencies to KUL, with 10 weekly flights (daily AMS KUL CGK + 3 weekly KUL terminator) and I believe the airline may well reverse this decision and operate dedicated terminator services to both KUL and CGK, in cooperation with MH and GA respectively.

The void left by Lufthansa's departure may of course be quickly filled by the Middle Eastern carriers. EK is currently operating twice daily into CGK, QR has 10 weekly CGK flight as well as a daily DPS tag to one of its SIN trips, and EY operates a daily terminator into CGK. Then there is also TK to be considered; the airline is now operating a daily SIN CGK tag, but has repeatedly said it will route its planned Australia operation via CGK, thus making CGK a nonstop destination from its IST hub. I know for a fact that EK is looking at expanding its presence in Indonesia.

That said, now seems to be as opportune a time as ever for KL to launch a nonstop operation, which I presume would come with a daylight return trip, along the lines of the former nonstop AMS MNL schedule.

I am not sure if there is enough demand for an AMS-CGK non-stop at the moment. Once CGK will have grown as a Skyteam hub, I am sure there will be enough demand, but right now? I doubt that there are enough people in the vicinity of AMS who regularly fly to CGK.

Regarding people from other parts of Europe (such as FRA) who are potential customers for Europe-AMS-CGK trips with an AMS-CGK non-stop, there is the problem of the high relevance of fuel prices for long-haul flights (see #8 above). KL will have much higher costs when flying Europe-AMS-CGK than the Gulf carriers when flying Europe-Gulf-CGK. As I do not think that the current LH customers are willing to pay significantly more to fly with a European airline, I reckon the Gulf carriers will not leave much room for KL to offer a non-stop AMS-CGK right now.

Things will be different when airline traffic has grown so much that CGK is a fully-fledged Skyteam hub, but I am sceptical for the time being.

Dear Cityflyer,

Your remark about carrying fuel on board to fly the fuel needed for a 12 hour flight, would that not lead to the option /discussion for a KLM schedule of 2 times 6 hours?
In other words AMS/DEL/CGK? Or is this crazy to expect a return to the old days with the multiple stops?

I don't think that'll work (and is preferable IMHO!). It also depends on the 5th freedom rights. As I understand, KLM can fill the plane on KUL-CGK very well.

Garuda is trying to get kangaroo route customers, and suceeding, but its all low yield, with a long wait in CGK in each direction, then via DXB to AMS - this will improve with the arrival of the 777 - so hopefully the schedules will improve too

They have also stopped daily flight on AMS-DXB-CGK, it's down to 4 a week.

They fail to compete with Emirates and the likes on this route.
Amazing to see that Lufthansa drops an emerging market with 200 million people plus.


Purchasing power is a big factor here. India has several times the population of USA, yet way more people fly in the USA. Similarly, Indonesia does have a large population, but many of them can't afford to fly to Europe.

Two remarks:

1) Germany has a lot of business cotacts with Indonesia, equal to China.
2) There are no visa differences between The Netherlands and Germany re: Indonesian people. Both countries are part of the so-called Schengen area and all Boarder controls are synchronist.

MSPeconomist did say 'at one point' ... before Schengen !

this will improve with the arrival of the 777 - so hopefully the schedules will improve tooThey are planning to fly CGK-AMS direct from winter '13.

Johan

I don't know whether it's still true, but at some point, citizens of Indonesia needed a visa for West Germany but not for the Netherlands.

In the late 1980's and early 1990's it was the other way around: Indonesians needed a visa for the Netherlands but could go to (West) Germany with just a passport.

They are planning to fly CGK-AMS direct from winter '13.

Johan

Johan, you do'not believe in any fuel issue.?? (carrying 12 hours of fuel versus EK - 2 times - 6 hours).

Johan, you do'not believe in any fuel issue.?? (carrying 12 hours of fuel versus EK - 2 times - 6 hours).What matters is what Garuda believe in. Once they take delivery of their 773s they plan on increasing the number of destinations served non-stop, AMS being one of them. One can only assume that they expect these routes to be commercial viable.

Johan