Asia - Best city in Asia to live as a base for SE Asia travel

I am seriously considering living in SE Asia with my wife and 2 kids for 3 or so months. We've traveled much of the world but have not been here.

I am thinking that we'd base ourselves in a city, get an apartment or house rental and then take 3-5 day excursions to a variety of different places. We homeschool and I simply need email for work so we have a lot of flexibility.

Any suggestions for a city that would make a great hub? I was thinking maybe Kuala Lumpar since Air Asia flies out of there.

It should be safe, clean and culturally interesting.

Some places we want to see in SE Asia are: China, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Angor Wat - Cambodia.

The obvious choices are BKK KUL Or SIN.
My choice would be KUL. culturally diverse, not monotonous like SIN (heavily chinese with smatter of others). AIR ASIA which has a hub in BKK as well. Availability of accomodation and also Singapore is expensive by any standards.
Air asia routes taken by me include: Siem Reap for Angkor, Phnom Penh, Kuching, Brunei, Bangalore Madras and Cochin in India, also HK. Air Asia and its CEO Tony Fernandes has done more for the region than any single political leader! Great Malay Indian and Chinese food with a smattering of european ones to satisfy your craving if you desire so. McDo if your children are into it. easy wifi access. good transportation to other parts of Malaysia.
you can also easily get to Laos, all parts of Thailand, Indonesia and Vietnam.

The obvious choices are BKK KUL Or SIN.
... or HKG.

I love hong kong and know many ex pat kids happy living there. Great culture, friendly, clean, safe. My fav Asian hub

Singapore is an excellent choice if you have money. If you are on a budget, rent there is too high. Kuala Lumpur would be a better choice. Bangkok is potentially politically unstable. All 3 have cheap flights.

Please continue to follow this thread in the FT Asia Forum.
Thanks..
Obscure2k
TravelBuzz Moderator

If budget is not an issue and you want somewhere comfortable to live, I would go with SIN or TYO. Personally for me, I'd take DPS.

If budget is not an issue and you want somewhere comfortable to live, I would go with SIN or TYO. Personally for me, I'd take DPS.

Could you please tell what it is about the Bali area that would make it a great hub for living and travel?

Thanks.

Could you please tell what it is about the Bali area that would make it a great hub for living and travel?

Thanks.

Rent a big beautiful fully staffed house for not much money, nice beaches, lot of flights to the major cities in Asia.

Alot of votes of KUL so let me be a contrarian.

BKK would get my vote. In fact that's basically what i did four years ago.


1) 30 days stamped into country on each return
2) great selection of flights to everywhere
3) train to/from the airport
4) centrally located within SE Asia
5) intangibles (food, things to do)
6) much more enjoyable than KUL

If you're working from a 'I don't care how much I spend' position then HKG would be my choice.

Also, let me suggest staying away from Air Asia. They are often not the cheapest airline (even though they are successful at representing themselves that way).

Of the big cities, Bangkok would get my vote as well. As an alternative, consider Chiang Mai. A number of years ago I used CM as a base of operations for several months, and it was surprisingly cost-effective for regional travel. What you pay out in a bit extra airfare is more than saved in lower living costs. A more manageable and less-expensive city than Bangkok (which relatively speaking, isn't particularly expensive itself) yet with good infrastructure. A good city for kids.

SIN would be my next choice but only if budget isn't an issue. Rents aren't cheap in Singapore, and most everything else is on the expensive side as well, by SE Asia standards. It's a good hub though.

KUL is possible, but for God's sake, don't let the fact that it's Air Asia's hub be the critical factor that crowds out all other considerations in your thinking. Don't pretzel-twist your plans to fit around the Air Asia company.

HKG is very high cost for rents, and not as good for purposes of travel focus on mainland SE Asia though OK for southern China access. It's a nice place to visit while in the area, but as a base of operations, definitely not when compared to the other alternatives. Skip this one.

BTW, neither India nor China is are in "SE Asia." ;) Nor do they lend themselves to 3-5 day excursions from a SE Asia base, once you figure in the cost of visas and travel. If either India or China is a priority, then I suggest you block out a specific time period (2, 3, 4 weeks, etc.). And then either front-end or back-end that time, so your base hub rental does not overlap--you don't want to be paying double for a place you aren't at.

I have similar doubts about 3-5 days for Indonesia excursions. In short, while I think your base hub strategy could work as a concept, you have way too much geography to deal with in "3 months or so." You'd really need more like 6-8 months for all this and it's really not possible to do the entire thing as short excursions. I suggest that if SE Asia is your focus, that you dispense with India and China and well, FOCUS. Or, reconceptualize this trip and just make it a continuous journey rather than trying to settle down at a base. You could do a hybrid and plan a sequence of mini-hubs of two weeks per hub, if that would help settle the kids slightly.

Visa strategy is an integral part of planning, so get familiar with the requirements of the different countries and what might be available to you.

For a family I'd have to agree that Bangkok would be the best all around, but for an individual or young couple, I'd say Hanoi. Don't miss the real sleeper in Indochina - that's Laos.

For a family I'd have to agree that Bangkok would be the best all around, but for an individual or young couple, I'd say Hanoi. Don't miss the real sleeper in Indochina - that's Laos.

While I love Hanoi and have spent alot of time in Laos the visa costs need to be factored in. A charge of $35 per person each time you enter Laos disqualifies it as a base. The same problems with Vietnam, although it might be easier to get a multiple entry visa for the latter.

With the hordes in Vientiane and Luang Pabang, Laos is definitely not a sleeper.

I would rate the capital cities as follows :-

1) SIN (if cost of accommodation is an issue, BKK takes the top spot)
2) BKK
3) KUL
4) CGK
5) HAN/SGN


SIN & BKK are major hubs, practically every airline operate from these airports. Few airlines fly to KUL which is dominated by the Air Asia-MH 'cartel' controlled by TF, meaning very few choices, higher fares and putting up with TF nonsense.

Hanoi may be a nice city to visit (and I usually do that several times each year), but it lacks the proper insfrastructure, convenience and facilities expected of a major city (which is the reason I rate it even below Jakarta). Vietnamese food is a little bland (not to say that I don't enjoy it) and after a week in Vietnam you would be yearning for something more "stimulating'. It's also not very pleasant dealing with the local business people, they are just too money crazy and look at foreigners as opportunities to make big money.

While I like Chiang Mai, as well as other secondary cities like Penang and Bandung; it's not very convenient if you need to fly around the region frequently. Nice for retirement or to raise a family, but not for a frequent traveller.

Singapore seems to be the perfect place, everything works well (almost) but cost of accommodation may be a big hindrance for many. Taking everything into consideration, I would probably vote for Bangkok; a major aviation hub, relatively low costs, good infrastructure and facilities, foreigner friendly, good food, very cosmopolitan and it feels exotic at the same time.

Looks like I have come to the right place to ask for advice. All of you have been a tremendous wealth of knowledge and insight.

And I agree that China and India will take a much longer trip -- possibly adding them on to each side of our stay.

Keep the advice coming.

Keep in mind the airport disruptions and flooding in BKK.

My choice would be SIN because it's so easy with quick and efficient airport access.

HongKong is also pretty good this way, but taxi fares to and from the airport when the express train cannot be used are high.

HongKong is also pretty good this way, but taxi fares to and from the airport when the express train cannot be used are high.

Hong Kong is not in South East Asia, it's actually 4hr from the centre of SE Asia which makes it highly inconvenient to travel around the region.

And I don't understand on how the airport disruption and flooding would have any bearing on where one should base themselves. The airport disruption was a one-off political side effect, and not a routine occurrence caused by frequent bad weather etc And in the past 10 years, how many times has Bangkok been flooded to the extent of the recent flooding ? Mind you Orchard Road was also flooded not too long ago, would you also view Singapore negatively due to that flood :confused:

If you are really looking for a big city to live in and cost is not a consideration, I think TYO wins hands down. Obviously not in SE Asia, and the flights are a lot longer, but if you are going to spend a lot of time at your base, then it's worth considering.

Also Jiejie's suggestion for a continuous journey is a good one. Not sure you really need a base camp.

To base oneself in Tokyo to explore South East Asia :eek:

It seems many are just nominating cities they have visited or which they like, without considering the OP's question or his needs.

I suppose if you can't beat them, you must as well join them. I suggest Sydney - great city, best beaches in the world, no worries lifestyle, friendly people, fabulous food ......

You are dealing with three different regions:

E Asia: China Japan Korea Taiwan

SE Asia: Vietnam, IndoChina peninsula, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia Philippians.

S Asia: India Subcontinent.

If you want to is head from one region to the next from E>W or W>E.

You can also check airlines for regional all you can fly passes. I know CX has one from any of their North American gateway to HKG and then 30/60/90 days of travel to many of CX's destination from HKG. You can fly to each destination once but not all their destinations are included. It is just like an all you can eat buffet which is a popular pass time in HK.

We have considered a "continuous journey" as some suggested but am researching the hub concept because

1. We won't have to plan the whole trip in advance. We can get tips and advice from those living and traveling in the country to help plan our excursions.
2. You can get larger/cheaper accommodations (apartment/house vs. hotel) if you are renting by the month (even if you aren't there half the time because you are off traveling)
3. We get a lot of flexibility in case of illness or other things that my make us change our plans about what country/city we want to visit next
4. Sometimes it is hard to get from point A to point B easily or inexpensively -- but can be cheaper in the long run in you are in a hub city that has lots of cheap flights to many places
5. Instead of simply traveling throughout East Asia, we think it might be a nice idea to live in one particular place, immerse ourselves in the culture and community a little bit instead of feeling like travelers the entire time.

I am glad someone brought up the food question because we do want to have good/interesting/variety of food where we live. We are especially fond of Thai, Indian and Malaysian cuisine (I suspect we'll like Indonesian food too). Not so fond of shellfish or sushi.

You can also check airlines for regional all you can fly passes. I know CX has one from any of their North American gateway to HKG and then 30/60/90 days of travel to many of CX's destination from HKG. You can fly to each destination once but not all their destinations are included. It is just like an all you can eat buffet which is a popular pass time in HK.[/QUOTE]


I'd LOVE to find out more about the regional fly passes if anyone knows about them. I have heard of them for Australia but haven't come across anything for Asia as of yet.

Keep in mind the airport disruptions and flooding in BKK.



:eek::confused::eek:

Why is disruption plural? In December 2008 there was a political protest that shut down the airport. Why should that have any impact on OP's decision?

The same with the flood. The worst flooding in 50 years and somehow this should be in everyone's consciousness continuously? Perhaps you should caution OP to stay away from the upper Missouri River basin as well. :p

If you are really looking for a big city to live in and cost is not a consideration, I think TYO wins hands down. Obviously not in SE Asia, and the flights are a lot longer, but if you are going to spend a lot of time at your base, then it's worth considering.

While I'm not disputing TYO is a great place, are you really suggesting it as a base for travel within SE Asia? :eek:



I am glad someone brought up the food question because we do want to have good/interesting/variety of food where we live. We are especially fond of Thai, Indian and Malaysian cuisine (I suspect we'll like Indonesian food too). Not so fond of shellfish or sushi.

Personally i find Thai food to be overwhelmingly more interesting than the rest. ;)

While I'm not disputing TYO is a great place, are you really suggesting it as a base for travel within SE Asia? :eek:

As I said, it depends on budget. I do it a lot and it's very easy but mostly because I have a lot of miles I use to fly F. I wouldn't want to do it in the back of the plane.

Personally i find Thai food to be overwhelmingly more interesting than the rest. ;)

Totally agree with you.

I echo mario33, with the additional caveat that if you want to focus on mainland SE Asia, SIN may be less central than BKK. Of course, the additional distance would only be an hour or two depending on where you're going, and you'd save time if you plan to hop about Indonesia.

On the other hand, Tokyo is over 3300 miles from KUL or HKT, or 3600 milest o CGK. Basing yourself at TYO to explore SE Asia when you have only a couple of months may be fairly compared to basing at BOS to explore Western Europe.

You can also check airlines for regional all you can fly passes. I know CX has one from any of their North American gateway to HKG and then 30/60/90 days of travel to many of CX's destination from HKG. You can fly to each destination once but not all their destinations are included. It is just like an all you can eat buffet which is a popular pass time in HK.


I'd LOVE to find out more about the regional fly passes if anyone knows about them. I have heard of them for Australia but haven't come across anything for Asia as of yet.[/QUOTE]

Check CX's website or subscribe to their specials newsletter.

I echo mario33, with the additional caveat that if you want to focus on mainland SE Asia, SIN may be less central than BKK. Of course, the additional distance would only be an hour or two depending on where you're going, and you'd save time if you plan to hop about Indonesia.

On the other hand, Tokyo is over 3300 miles from KUL or HKT, or 3600 milest o CGK. Basing yourself at TYO to explore SE Asia when you have only a couple of months may be fairly compared to basing at BOS to explore Western Europe.

Well think about it (again cost aside), assuming you are going to be spending half your time in your base, wouldn't you rather spend an extra 48 hours in the air to have the best base....especially if you're flying F.

I just started a similar thread, though mine focuses on a much longer stay than a few months.

I did however spend seven months living in Singapore, six of them working on a workholiday pass. Fantastic experience, and I did exactly what the OP wants to do... based myself in the heart of Southeast Asia to explore the region.

I was on a very tight budget, and I did have to work so the majority of my trips were either day trips or weekend trips. It was super convenient, and relatively cheap. But in comparison I find Kuala Lumpur to be about half the price of Singapore in just about every respect.

From Singapore I managed to do about a dozen trips to Malaysia, both mainland and Borneo. A day trip to Jakarta and Bali. A weekend trip to the Philippines, Macao and Hong Kong, Taiwan, as well as several trips to Phuket and Krabi.


My experience going to Bangkok was not successful. It was too expensive when compared to other similar destinations so I simply didn't go there. Even flying from Phuket to Bangkok wasn't cheap. Though after leaving Singapore I've noticed prices came down slightly or at least there appears to be more sales.


While living in Singapore I did not exclusively fly Air Asia, in fact I flew more on Tiger and Jet Star Asia instead. What I found was leaving Singapore was the cheapest on Tiger Airways... they leave from the budget terminal which is outside the main 3 terminals of Changi, and you can often get free'ish flights, especially to KUL... for which I paid something like $17 SGD... Air Asia has recently started charging fuel surcharge which often doubles the very low fares they offer... but I did quite a few trips on the $2 bus across the Causeway into Johor Bahru to catch a cheap Air Asia flight to Borneo, as it is domestic from JHB and cost as low as $30 SGD round trip to Kota Kinabalu when I went... a similar trip originating from Singapore cost $40 SGD on Tiger, out to Kuching, Sarawak. Jet Star Asia often had the best timings as compared to Tiger, because they would allow you to leave early in the morning and return late in the evening... one of those trips I did to Jakarta for $50 SGD... one of my favorite trips. Though remember that Indonesia has both an visa on arrival and the departure tax, which I believe added up to be more than my flight there. Still a good way to see the city without having to stay there.


Best of luck to whatever you decide on. You really can't go wrong... the whole region is beautiful and I cannot wait to return there. I have already decided that Malaysia and probably Kuala Lumpur in particular is best fit for me :)

--Russ

I hope OP can separate the wheat from the chaff, because there has been some crappy advice given from some posters here, that is unresponsive to the needs of the OP.

I'm absolutely :eek: at the idea that anybody would propose basing oneself in Tokyo. I guess if you fly F and have tons of miles and stay in nice hotels for short trips it's OK, but consider:
--Distance
--Paid airfares from Japan are expensive, and having to do it for a family, regularly?
--Do you have any idea how problematic renting an apartment is in Japan, with key money requirements, reluctant landlords when it comes to foreigners, and tiny spaces...for a family?
--Overall cost of living for other daily necessities?
--Visa issues?


Come on people--please before you give advice to others, make sure you really understand enough about a place to know what you are talking about, and how to apply it to the poster's situation at hand.

I won't even comment on the BKK airport issue, since dsquared and others beat me to it. Another :eek:

I'm absolutely :eek: at the idea that anybody would propose basing oneself in Tokyo. I guess if you fly F and have tons of miles and stay in nice hotels for short trips it's OK

Tokyo was like a kick in the pants after visiting it on the tail end of my Singapore trip.

Extremely expensive for the most basic things, and I had a free place to stay.

Japan is ridiculously expensive in every respect.

I hope OP can separate the wheat from the chaff, because there has been some crappy advice given from some posters here, that is unresponsive to the needs of the OP.

I'm absolutely :eek: at the idea that anybody would propose basing oneself in Tokyo. I guess if you fly F and have tons of miles and stay in nice hotels for short trips it's OK, but consider:
--Distance
--Paid airfares from Japan are expensive, and having to do it for a family, regularly?
--Do you have any idea how problematic renting an apartment is in Japan, with key money requirements, reluctant landlords when it comes to foreigners, and tiny spaces...for a family?
--Overall cost of living for other daily necessities?
--Visa issues?

Come on people--please before you give advice to others, make sure you really understand enough about a place to know what you are talking about, and how to apply it to the poster's situation at hand.

With all due respect I have carefully caveated every post with a "if budget isn't an issue."

Renting a monthly apartment is incredibly simple.
No visa required from most countries - you can stay 90 days per visit.
Easiest city to get around in.
Best food - by far.
Very safe
Very clean
Very friendly.
Lot's of greenery.
Tons of stuff to do.

As I said, my personal preference would probably be somewhere outside of DPS, but if you are going to base in a big city and spend a fair amount of time there, TYO would definitely make sense (budget aside).

The OPs stated criteria were: "It should be safe, clean and culturally interesting." It did not say anything about cost. If it had said "safe, clean and culturally sterile" I would have recommended Singapore.

If Singapore is 'culturally' sterile, the same could be said of Tokyo.

And I am willing to give up sushi anytime, but no way am I giving up satay !

I think there is a bigger world out there beyond the boundaries of
Tokyo, which BTW is almost one third of the way to the US from SE Asia

If Singapore is 'culturally' sterile, the same could be said of Tokyo.

And I am willing to give up sushi anytime, but no way am I giving up satay !

I think there is a bigger world out there beyond the boundaries of
Tokyo, which BTW is almost one third of the way to the US from SE Asia

Well you definitely have a point on the satay, but I had a snapper carpaccio with sliced red radishes, a touch of scallions, and a frambroise sauce last night in Tokyo, which was pretty spectacular.:)

Singapore is far from sterile.


Especially now, many interesting things are happening that weren't before.

Singapore is far from sterile.
Especially now, many interesting things are happening that weren't before.

Yes I know.

Satay
Crab with black pepper sauce
Formula 1

That's three. Quite a lot indeed.:D

Satay
Crab with black pepper sauce
Formula 1


Singapore has one of the most diverse and interesting cuisine anywhere in the world, you could do better focusing on other aspects of life on the island. When it comes to food, only other places to rival Singapore (and Malaysia) are Thailand and Hong Kong, nowhere else comes close.

Whenever I am transiting through Changi, I usually bypass the free japanese meal at Green Market and head to the Food Court next door. Honestly I don't care much for Japanese cuisine nor do I understand the hype, and Tokyo is one of the very few places where I would rather settle for a burger at McDonalds...

This is a cool topic, thanks for bringing it up bazers. I'm doing something similar (wife & kid, and I can live and work anywhere I want). We're based in CEB now which doesn't suit your requirements for a home base. It's culturally interesting (well, to me anyway) but a little less clean than other modern cities in SE Asia.

But someday you might want to make CEB one of the mini trips from your hub, after you get established somewhere. A few of us posted some CEB suggestions here. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/asia/1257970-restaurants-cebu-advice.html) Send me a PM when you are in town.

In the mean time, I'd vote for BKK just for the food. Lots of good flights, easy transportation in the city. And I've passed through during their "revolutions" before. They have the safest revolutions in this area of the world. ;)

I hope OP can separate the wheat from the chaff, because there has been some crappy advice given from some posters here, that is unresponsive to the needs of the OP.


I guess that is the beauty of a forum like this. I get advice from a wealth of sources (hopefully) and when you get advice from a lot of different people some of it is likely to be less helpful. I've always liked the bible verse --- in a multitude of counselors there is wisdom. With all of you sharing your tips, ideas and advice I've been able to glean some wonderful things (and can separate the advice which is not useful to my situation). And I am sure this forum will be visited by people after me who are also seeking to explore Asia from a home base. So thanks to all you wonderful travel counselors for sharing.

But someday you might want to make CEB one of the mini trips from your hub, after you get established somewhere. A few of us posted some CEB suggestions here. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/asia/1257970-restaurants-cebu-advice.html) Send me a PM when you are in town.


Cebu was a great place to visit :) It is definitely quite interesting, close to many beach activities and the food is amazing. I stayed in Lapu Lapu on my visit, and liked it better than Manila... fewer churches have armed guards there :) among other things. Cebu is also getting better connections now, with direct flights to even Singapore being offered. Though you need to pay departure tax every time you leave, in cash.

Opinions are like you-know-whats, but I think Singapore isn't the obvious choice it once was. I won't drone on about how boring it is, mostly because the list of things to do, see and experience has shot up over the years.

That said, the cost of living has too. I feel it's becoming the Monaco of SE Asia and I reckon with all that growth over the past 30 years, it's pretty much a climax economy.

Oh, it's an awesome country still, where things work ever so well. It's governed superbly, it's stable, clean, safe and quite comfortable too. But it's also lost its idiosynchratic Asianness, as well as its greenness.

I suggest that KL is the place to be. Not cheap either and there are teething problems, sure. But as a country, Malaysia still has so much growth left in it.

It's also got nature, wildlife, which I feel kids shouldn't be deprived of.

Plus it's got travel options north, east, south and west of it.

In addition, the food there is a notch up from Singapore, more fragrant, fresher, tastier.

Cebu was a great place to visit :) It is definitely quite interesting, close to many beach activities and the food is amazing. I stayed in Lapu Lapu on my visit, and liked it better than Manila... fewer churches have armed guards there :) among other things. Cebu is also getting better connections now, with direct flights to even Singapore being offered. Though you need to pay departure tax every time you leave, in cash.

Yep, Cebu is very much the cooler, more laid-back younger sister to the bigger Manila. We have good tourist activities, scenery, city life, night life, etc., but it's all just a little bit more relaxed. And there are many fewer foreigners here. They love foreigners in Cebu, whereas in Manila everyone is just a face in the crowd.

You aren't kidding about the airport fees. For tourists departing internationally it's 550 pesos in cash. But citizens have to pay an extra 1620 pesos to get out. And us legal residents have to pay that 1620 plus the ACR fee of around 2500 pesos on top of that. So every time I want to leave it costs me over $100 USD in cash fees at the airport*. Ouch!

*Still cheaper than living in the US though. Just sayin'.

But as a country, Malaysia still has so much growth left in it.

It's also got nature, wildlife, which I feel kids shouldn't be deprived of.

Plus it's got travel options north, east, south and west of it.

In addition, the food there is a notch up from Singapore, more fragrant, fresher, tastier.

Mind you Singapore is actually sandwiched between East & West Malaysia (and Indonesia). You only need to cross the bridge (and the border ), and many actually live and work on both sides of the border. You are getting the best of both worlds; living in a world class city that is safe, clean, efficient, corruption-free, less racism etc etc but at the same time easy access to the beaches &
jungles.

In the cities itself, Singapore is actually much greener than KL. And older buildings are actually preserved compared to KL where anything old is considered ugly and couldn't wait to be demolished to be replaced by concrete highrise buildings painted over with awlful colours.

As for food, I would rate both cities equally. Singapore however has the advantage of a migrant population giving rise to wider varieties, eg I can find Penang Laksa in Singapore but Singapore Laksa cant be found anywhere in Malaysia.

This is a great thread! Lots of interesting suggestions. Based on the plethora of flight options I would say that the options really come down to BKK and SIN. Of the two, BKK will be the much more affordable option and I think a much more enjoyable option for you and the kids.

Wait....wait... I've got it.... Pyongyang.

Mind you Singapore is actually sandwiched between East & West Malaysia (and Indonesia). You only need to cross the bridge (and the border ), and many actually live and work on both sides of the border. You are getting the best of both worlds; living in a world class city that is safe, clean, efficient, corruption-free, less racism etc etc but at the same time easy access to the beaches & jungles.

probably the reason why I got more Malaysian stamps in my passport than any other... Batam is a cool destination also short boat ride from SG, best to go there if you know someone that can take you around. I had some of the most amazing seafood there right on the water with a price tag for four similar to what you'd pay for one in SG. I'm not a coffee drinker but I'm a huge fan of the proper Ipoh Coffee in Malaysia... and durian is great in Johor :)

BKK.

Very cheap to live, a ton of stuff to do, cheap travel in the region, you can sometimes get amazing travel deals by going to regional travel agencies in BKK and getting prices quoted normally reserved for locals. In 2007 I was able to fly BKK-DXB-CDG for 260$ return on EK. Local food is cheap and plentiful, public transport is great for getting around. Great place to make friends in the SE asia region because a lot of people retire/spend part of the year in BKK.

booked another flight to Kuala Lumpur on the way to Singapore GP in September, this time however gave myself a few extra days to spend my birthday in Bangkok

gotta see for myself what the fuzz is all about :)

every time I read about BKK I'm thinking Hang Over II with Mike Tyson singing "One Night in Bangkok, and the world's your oyster..." LOL

every time I read about BKK I'm thinking Hang Over II with Mike Tyson singing "One Night in Bangkok, and the world's your oyster..." LOL

I don't know too, my Singapore friends go to Bangkok like always and frequently. I guess I have to see it for myself too.

What you get out of BKK, like most cities, is entirely dependent upon what you are lookig for. For the OP I'd say that your neighborhood vendors and neighbors are more likely befriend you than in say SIN or HKG. you'll have a richer experience for a fraction of the cost.

I am travelling solo sometime in 2012 to south east asia, and this thread has given me some good ideas.

I always thought about moving from A to B to C etc, and never really base myself at a hub.

Flying in from LHR, I would preferrably like to arrive at SIN, stay a few nights and splurge at Marina Bay Sands, or Capella, and then start my budget tour.

But for example, if I did a weekend trip to Yogyakarta from Singapore, do you think I should fly back to SIN before heading on to DPS? AirAsia do not fly JOG-DPS only Garuda do, and their prices are more expensive then if I went back to SIN first. Seems a bit pointless, but if money is an issue...

Singapore is so expensive though, 28 days staying at Ibis on Bencoolen still comes to £900 - and I'm not going to go lower standard than that. However, basing myself in SIN makes it a little annoying to get to places like Siem Reap or Luang Prabang. Silkair can take me there, but they are very expensive, so to make budget air travel work for me, I would need base myself in KUL, or at least BKK.

Malaysia doesn't appeal to me much, as a budget traveller. Of course, I would love to visit The Datai but not going to happen. So generally, for me, basing yourself in BKK is a no brainer if you want to explore "Indochina". I also want to explore Myanmar, and BKK is perfect for that kind of excursion too.

gotta see for myself what the fuzz is all about :)



I don't think many visitor would like dirty & disorganised Bangkok on their first visit, especially if you are used to clean & orderly Singapore. However you will find that people are generally friendlier than in Singapore & Malaysia, both of which are generally known to be the least friendly in SE Asia.

If you spend enough time in Bangkok you would appreciate that despite the madness, things do work relatively well over there infavour of the man on the street and you dont need to fly Air Asia if you dont want to. This is in contrast to KL where cost of living is artificially inflated to please the egos of evil dictators or to enrich the pockets of a few businessmen connected to the ruling party.

Assuming one was going to us Bangkok as their hub, are there some general recommendations on parts of the city to stay assuming you wanted it to be safe, clean, "pretty" (I know that is in the eye of the beholder), and where there are plenty of good restaurants around - preferably in walking distance? I'd also like it to be convenient to get to the airport as we'd be taking a lot of trips. Maybe 30 minutes to the airport.

Let's just assume that the budget for accommodations (family of 4) was up to $2000 (US) per month.

Assuming one was going to us Bangkok as their hub, are there some general recommendations on parts of the city to stay assuming you wanted it to be safe, clean, "pretty" (I know that is in the eye of the beholder), and where there are plenty of good restaurants around - preferably in walking distance? I'd also like it to be convenient to get to the airport as we'd be taking a lot of trips. Maybe 30 minutes to the airport.

Let's just assume that the budget for accommodations (family of 4) was up to $2000 (US) per month.

For $2000 USD (or ~65,000 THB) you'd be able to rent a very nice furnished multi-bedroom apt near a BTS station with some money to spare.

Mind you Singapore is actually sandwiched between East & West Malaysia (and Indonesia). You only need to cross the bridge (and the border ), and many actually live and work on both sides of the border. You are getting the best of both worlds; living in a world class city that is safe, clean, efficient, corruption-free, less racism etc etc but at the same time easy access to the beaches &
jungles.

In the cities itself, Singapore is actually much greener than KL. And older buildings are actually preserved compared to KL where anything old is considered ugly and couldn't wait to be demolished to be replaced by concrete highrise buildings painted over with awlful colours.

As for food, I would rate both cities equally. Singapore however has the advantage of a migrant population giving rise to wider varieties, eg I can find Penang Laksa in Singapore but Singapore Laksa cant be found anywhere in Malaysia.

I cross into Malaysia and back to Singapore several times a week, at all hours of the day, both at Woodlands and at Tuas. Trust me when I say that l commuting between Singapore and Malaysia is not an option, unless you can take being stuck in a jam for up to 2 hours twice a day in your stride.

It will never be resolved because:

1) Singapore will never open up their border, it's too much of a magnet for foreigners from surrounding (poorer) countries.

2) It's in Singapore's best interest to keep the daily exodus to a trickle so as to discourage locals from exporting their SGD.

Last week we were stuck for 3.5 hours trying to get back into Singapore. Malaysia tends to have logistics/labor issues.

In theory, this commute thing works. In practice, no way.

KL is not as green as Singapore, true, but outside of KL it's all green for hundreds of miles.

In Singapore, people tend to not use "slow-cooking". Everything has to be done fast, so money can be made. In Malaysia, people cook slowly, which means that the spices and herbs and what-nots have plenty of time to infuse the food with their fragrance.

Also, all meat, chicken, fish, veggies, everything basically, has to be imported into Singapore. While in transit, it loses quite a bit of its crispness, freshness. Spring onions in Singapore are always limp and bland. I'm not a gourmet by any stretch, but I can taste the difference.

Variety might be in Singapore's favor, but Malaysia wins on freshness and taste factor.

Trust me when I say that l commuting between Singapore and Malaysia is not an option, unless you can take being stuck in a jam for up to 2 hours twice a day in your stride.
.

I never suggested to the OP to commute on a daily basis, just that they can just easily cross the border for jungles and beaches.

Your experience of crossing the border is way over exaggerated, or you only travelled at certain hours. I have frequently crossed the border at Tuas in less than 30min. And thousands living in Johore cross the border daily to work in factories in Singapore.

As the saying goes 'the grass is always greener on the other side' but
having lived in both Singapore and KL, I can confidently say Singapore is much more greener. In KL you really need to travel for miles if you want to be close to the jungles (unless you consider oil palm plantations as jungles), you are not any worse of by staying in Singapore when it comes to proximity to jungles.

I am also amused that you find food to be less fresh in Singapore, when Johore is at the other end of the bridge and Singapore is only 3hr on the road from KL, oh yes 3hr fresher :rolleyes:

BTW if you find food in KL to be have more flavour, it's probably because the
food is prepared by Burmese or Indonesian migrant workers .....

my average crossing time in and out of Singapore has been an hour.

sure there were a few 30 minute crossings, but more often it was over an hour, with close to 3 hours at one time when I was driving back from Mersing... it was my own fault because I got there during the morning rush hour... like everybody else trying to make it to work on time (which I failed miserably)

--Russ

I am travelling solo sometime in 2012 to south east asia, and this thread has given me some good ideas.

I always thought about moving from A to B to C etc, and never really base myself at a hub.

Flying in from LHR, I would preferrably like to arrive at SIN, stay a few nights and splurge at Marina Bay Sands, or Capella, and then start my budget tour.

But for example, if I did a weekend trip to Yogyakarta from Singapore, do you think I should fly back to SIN before heading on to DPS? AirAsia do not fly JOG-DPS only Garuda do, and their prices are more expensive then if I went back to SIN first. Seems a bit pointless, but if money is an issue...

Singapore is so expensive though, 28 days staying at Ibis on Bencoolen still comes to £900 - and I'm not going to go lower standard than that. However, basing myself in SIN makes it a little annoying to get to places like Siem Reap or Luang Prabang. Silkair can take me there, but they are very expensive, so to make budget air travel work for me, I would need base myself in KUL, or at least BKK.

Malaysia doesn't appeal to me much, as a budget traveller. Of course, I would love to visit The Datai but not going to happen. So generally, for me, basing yourself in BKK is a no brainer if you want to explore "Indochina". I also want to explore Myanmar, and BKK is perfect for that kind of excursion too.

No, backtracking to Singapore makes no sense whatsoever, and you'd have to pay Indonesia exit tax, then when you re-entered Indonesia, you'd have to buy another visa, then pay exit tax again. Stop letting the existence or nonexistence of Air Asia routes rule your plans. There are other options, and some of them manage not to crash. :p FWIW, it's usually cheaper to buy domestic Indonesia tickets from a travel agent there, and some agents you may be able to have them book you something in advance and be able to pay with a non-Indo credit card. Or buy the onward segment to Bali when you get to your first place in Indonesia--usually you can get flights on walk-up or very short notice. If Yogya-Bali direct schedule offerings won't work out for you, then either backtracking to Jakarta or (IMO better) flying from Surabaya are also options. Or if you have the time, consider an overland routing and take in the Mt. Bromo volcano area (if it's not erupting :D ) then ferry to Bali.

And Yes, Singapore is one of the most expensive places in SE Asia to use as a base for other regional travels. Which is why budget travelers tend not to use it as such, but pass through quickly and hang out elsewhere.

One more point: you can't really effectively "explore" by doing one-off weekend trips from somewhere else. You can visit and do quick hit-and-run touring and that has its merits, but "exploring" requires more contact hours in a place, it's as simple as that. So while the hub strategy has some positive attributes, it also has shortcomings and for some types of itineraries and travelers, isn't the best plan.

I am travelling solo sometime in 2012 to south east asia, and this thread has given me some good ideas.

I always thought about moving from A to B to C etc, and never really base myself at a hub.

I've been to SE Asia several times. I've never gone all out and done a 100% "hub" trip, but personally I think the hub strategy would work best for me. My last trip was almost there as I shared an apartment for most of the trip. It was amazing to bring a small duffel bag on a weekend trip.

Pros
1) Cheaper. Renting an apartment for a month is cheaper than staying in a hotel for a month.
2) You don't have to bring all of your stuff with you every place that you go
3) You have a place to call home (big psychological bonus)

Cons
1) You're always coming back to your hub, so you'll have a ton of visa stamps in your passport.
2) You're paying for an apartment AND a hotel room on your trips
3) Worst case scenario you're blocked entry back to your hub and no access to your items at your apartment


It's a personal decision. You need to know what works best for YOU

For a hub city to live in I would use SIN. Safe and clean. Those would be my top two criteria in picking a city to use as a home base. Even if it is more expensive it is worth it to have a secure place to be based out of with a family.
Sentosa is a short train ride away and the beach is great.
Use SIN as the base and go to the other countries/cities for the short visits like the op mentioned.

One thing to keep in mind is that even in "expensive" cities like HKG, weekly/monthly rentals may not be so bad- check out sites like vrbo.com or airbnb.com. And if your board is taken care of in HKG, the rest of the city doesn't cost as much, especially transportation.

I haven't been to KL, but I think BKK, HKG or SIN would all be great bases. I guess it depends on what you want out of a city- SIN is the cleanest with the most English, HKG is dense but modern, and BKK is crowded, noisy, and full of things to discover. Obviously there is more to each city, but the point is you need to figure out what you want out of a home base. All three cities don't have more than a week's worth of things to see, but living there adds a whole other dimension, and I obviously BKK is the easiet gateway to the rest of Thailand, which you could easily spend a month or more exploring.

One thing to keep in mind is that even in "expensive" cities like HKG, weekly/monthly rentals may not be so bad- check out sites like vrbo.com or airbnb.com. And if your board is taken care of in HKG, the rest of the city doesn't cost as much, especially transportation.

I haven't been to KL, but I think BKK, HKG or SIN would all be great bases. I guess it depends on what you want out of a city- SIN is the cleanest with the most English, HKG is dense but modern, and BKK is crowded, noisy, and full of things to discover. Obviously there is more to each city, but the point is you need to figure out what you want out of a home base. All three cities don't have more than a week's worth of things to see, but living there adds a whole other dimension, and I obviously BKK is the easiet gateway to the rest of Thailand, which you could easily spend a month or more exploring.

SIN, HKG, BKK are not cities but airports, none of which are great for long-term residential stays. ;) :p

And Bangkok certainly has more than a week's worth of things to explore...much more compared to Singapore and Hong Kong. It's just that most visitors don't have time or knowledge of anything but the biggies. It is a dirtier and more chaotic city than the other two, though.

And Bangkok certainly has more than a week's worth of things to explore...much more compared to Singapore and Hong Kong. It's just that most visitors don't have time or knowledge of anything but the biggies. It is a dirtier and more chaotic city than the other two, though.

Bangkok has infinite things to do and being 'dirtier and more chaotic' makes it infinitely more interesting. :D

Bangkok has infinite things to do and being 'dirtier and more chaotic' makes it infinitely more interesting. :D

Oh, so true!

Bangkok has infinite things to do and being 'dirtier and more chaotic' makes it infinitely more interesting. :D
LOL!

Alot of votes of KUL so let me be a contrarian.

BKK would get my vote. In fact that's basically what i did four years ago.


1) 30 days stamped into country on each return
2) great selection of flights to everywhere
3) train to/from the airport
4) centrally located within SE Asia
5) intangibles (food, things to do)
6) much more enjoyable than KUL

If you're working from a 'I don't care how much I spend' position then HKG would be my choice.

Also, let me suggest staying away from Air Asia. They are often not the cheapest airline (even though they are successful at representing themselves that way).

Ive been based in BKK for 14 years and would not trade BKK for any of the other locations. I spend plenty of time in every major city in Asia and BKK for ease of lifestyle, and relatively low cost of living gets my vote.

DPS is a cheap destination from Perth OZ. I've visited DPS on some 35 trips. The OP threw it in as a choice.
Why not - if you stay out of the Kuta madness (shoulder to shoulder revellers) it is a great destination and would make a ideal hub.
Here's the plusses
Lovely beaches
Good cheap food - including supermarkets
Many Carriers run flights to/from DPS
Friendly locals (english speaking wide spread)
Quality/cheap long term accomodation (swimming pools/house staff/drivers) - see vbro website
90% Hindu, which among other things, provides a unique culture in that part of the world.
You can get a 3 month visa.

http://www.vrbo.com/vacation-rentals/region/asia/indonesia/bali#1187

One of my dreams, is to spend lengthy periods of my retirement there.

I think the location is a negative. While many carriers fly from DPS, flights to many locations will be much longer, no?

I think the location is a negative. While many carriers fly from DPS, flights to many locations will be much longer, no?

And paying for a visa upon each entry, for multiple people, adds up.

And paying for a visa upon each entry, for multiple people, adds up.

Just get a one year multi-entry visa.

Granted, DPS is at the southern end of Asia. But hey, we LOVE flying, that s why we are contributers to this website - 2 hrs to SIN and 4 hours to BKK aint so bad.
You have the choice of cheap carriers, Air Asia, Lion air, Jetstar Asia or the established Asian airlines, Singapore, Cathay, Thai .....and lots of others.
I'm now using DPS as a hub for International travel. I can get from PER to DPS for $500 return on Air Asia in 3:15 hours. Then the worlds my oyster at far cheaper prices than I can get out of Oz.
Yes, the Visa is a $25 pain in the pocket, but once payed I'm in Bali (cheap and restful), and secondly I can make that up easily on any choice of routing out of DPS.

And how many hours to Hanoi ?

How are the fares out of DPS as compared to BKK or SIN ?

Are the airport taxis controlled by mafias, and whats the fare like for a short ride out of the airport permeter ?

How are the public transport like, and is it easy to get around the island ?

How is the food in Bali compared with Bangkok, Singapore or Kuala Lumpur ?

How are medical facilities as compared with Bangkok, Singapore or Kuala Lumpur ?

It appears to me you are another Bali obsessed Aussie, nothing wrong with that. But suggesting DPS as a base to travel around SE Asia is pure lunacy !

Hey Mario33, I didn't know your well documented hate for Air Asia overflowed into a dislike of Bali.
In 2010, 771,792 Australians visited Bali, along with 700K Europeans and 1.7Mil people from non-adjacent Asian countries.
We are not all nutters......

Back to the OP's question.
A idyllic place to park up, work from home, with the occasional trip (for recreation, with the family) to other Asian scenic/tourist destinations.
Yep, DPS would do that. Air Asia offers good direct flights to 14 Asian destinations (I know that will ruffle your feathers, notice I didn't say cheap, but you can find cheapies) + other Carriers.
Accomodation is cheap and can include driver + house staff.
As for your other objections, once you rule out SIN because of cost, developing Asia has similar issues - medical, visa, taxi, etc

As for your other objections, once you rule out SIN because of cost, developing Asia has similar issues - medical, visa, taxi, etc

I think BKK is much better suited. It is more central. Excellent health care options. Easy to navigate using public transport. But the centrality for exploring the region makes it so much more logical IMO.

Yes, but would the OP actually choose to live in BKK or one of the beautiful Thai seaside tourist locations - say Phuket or Kosumui.
I reckon he's chasing a lifestyle thing - not primaryily a CBD and airport.

Singapore or Tokyo.
I lived in Tokyo for 11 years and there were weekly deals with Travel Zoo that were fantastic.
The other places are OK, but for a high standard of living those two are it.

Yes, but would the OP actually choose to live in BKK or one of the beautiful Thai seaside tourist locations - say Phuket or Kosumui.
I reckon he's chasing a lifestyle thing - not primaryily a CBD and airport.

What part of their post are you basing this on?

what I'd give to go back to Asia now... New Zealand absolutely blows!

What part of their post are you basing this on?

Glad I'm not the only one wondering about this.

I am so glad this discussion is continuing because we have not come to a decision yet. We have booked our tickets to Beijing for October. We will spend 2 weeks touring China and then head south to our "hub" where we plan to station ourselves for about 3 months.

The trip is exciting but also daunting. One of the things that makes it easier is having a forum like this.

I am so glad this discussion is continuing because we have not come to a decision yet. We have booked our tickets to Beijing for October. We will spend 2 weeks touring China and then head south to our "hub" where we plan to station ourselves for about 3 months.

The trip is exciting but also daunting. One of the things that makes it easier is having a forum like this.

Perhaps you can help by giving some feedback on the comments we've all made. Which seem closer to what you need?

Perhaps you can help by giving some feedback on the comments we've all made. Which seem closer to what you need?


So far it seems like Kuala Lumpur and Bangkok are the leading candidates based on feedback.

The reasons are:

* Proximity, cost and ease to fly to rest of SE (Japan and Indonesia don't have that in their favor). Despite some people's strong dislike of Air Asia their sales of $20 RT to many places from KUL is a big plus. I get their emails and see their deals.
* Seems to be easy enough for an English speaker to live in
* Relatively affordable (Hong Kong and Singapore are quite a bit more expensive). Indonesia does seem to be even cheaper.
* Culturally interesting (Bangkok more than Kuala Lumpur) and feeling like we are in "Asia". We'll take side trips to "paradise" (beach resort, etc.) but don't want to live there.
* Good, tasty food (we love Thai, Indonesian and Malaysian cuisine)
* Certain level of comfort, hygiene and safety - especially since our kids are 7 and 11 (Kuala Lumpur trumps Bangkok in this category)

Good summary of your considerations.


* Certain level of comfort, hygiene and safety - especially since our kids are 7 and 11 (Kuala Lumpur trumps Bangkok in this category)

I don't know enough about KL, but why does it trump BKK in this category?

Good summary of your considerations.



I don't know enough about KL, but why does it trump BKK in this category?

All the comments and personal research I have done has indicated that overall KL is much cleaner, sanitary, safer overall than BKK.

I can tell from your reaction that you are most definitely looking for a different experience, and not a high-quality expat life. SIN and HKG are not the same as BKK. If you want fine dining and a nice salary, those would be the natural choices, but I'm guessing you want a unique experience.

I've lived in TPE,HKG,and PVG in addition to month-long assignments in SGN,BKK,and KIX. I'd recommend SGN or anyplace in Vietnam for that unique experience factor, but with young kids I wouldnt go there. BKK is the obvious fit. You'll see that China isn't good for kids and that a lot of the culture is difficult to absorb. BKK gives you the best of both - an opportunity to live a high-quality lifestyle while experiencing a genuinely different cultural setting. BKK has the infrastructure for tourism and is foreigner friendly. You won't find yourself sitting in an expat bar every night because the surroundings make you uncomfortable.

My recommendation is for BKK, hands down.

I can tell from your reaction that you are most definitely looking for a different experience, and not a high-quality expat life.

3 months is hardly an "expat" situation... If choosing a place to live for 2 years Singapore and Hong Kong would clearly be on top of the list. But that's not what the OP is asking for (even if his thread title might be misleading).

I think that the OP is 100% top on with his Bangkok / KL short list. ^

Glad I'm not the only one wondering about this.

You and yosithezet aren't the only ones. Until today's posts, it certainly didn't come across to me from the OP that he is looking for a "lifestyle" experience at reasonable cost. What came across was the need for a convenient travel base. And those two priorities may be reconcilable from some locations in SE Asia, but in other locations, rather mutually exclusive. The 3 month-ish time frame threw me, as that is more typical of somebody wanting a base for travel than an "expat" experience. As posted above, 3 months isn't "expat" situation just an extended holiday.

I concur that Bangkok and KL are looking like best possibilities, based on his criteria summary. I'd lean toward Bangkok on the "interest and variety" dimensions alone. (I grew up there when I was your kids' age, long ago when it was considerably less sanitary and had fewer amenities, and brother and I thrived just fine--and you won't be parking the family on Patpong Road anyway.)

Yes, but would the OP actually choose to live in BKK or one of the beautiful Thai seaside tourist locations - say Phuket or Kosumui.
I reckon he's chasing a lifestyle thing - not primaryily a CBD and airport.

From the OP:

Any suggestions for a city that would make a great hub? I was thinking maybe Kuala Lumpar since Air Asia flies out of there.

I reckon that he's looking for a place that's affordable to travel to/from other parts of Asia.

Just a heads up, today Air Asia launched a sale with some decent fares on offer.

I'll be finally able to check out Bangkok thanks to all your recommendations, while the direct flight wasn't available on my dates of travel, I was still able to piece together an itinerary to go there via Phuket, that actually came out to less than direct... and I already have friends in Phuket thanks to a few visits there recently.

Looking forward to this trip like no other!

Never been, but in planning an upcoming trip, was interested to see how highly Penang/Georgetown ranked in terms of food: Per the NY Times:

Grilled fish balls in Bangkok? Been there. Spicy pork skewers in Ho Chi Minh City? Done that. Adventurous foodies are turning to Penang, the culinary capital of Malaysia, where they are eating their way through one of southeast Asia’s liveliest street-food scenes. Blogs like Fried Chillies and Penang Street Foods have sprouted in recent years, deliciously chronicling the pan-Asian flavors of dishes like assam laksa — white rice noodles with fermented shrimp paste, cucumber and pineapples. The best part? There are city-run hawker stands everywhere, and even refined dishes like char koay teow — noodles with prawns, chili paste and cockles — rarely cost more than $2.

Hm. I wonder if MNL can be a serious contender for this, especially considering that 5J is expanding: they're opening up service to REP and restarting HAN this year. Also, with so many seat sales it has become much more affordable to fly out of the Philippines to the rest of Southeast Asia, and even Asia in general.

Hm. I wonder if MNL can be a serious contender for this
In a word, no. It's surprisingly far from the rest of SE Asia (nearly 4 hours to Singapore!), hygiene and personal safety is seriously dodgy, and the food can't hold a candle to Malaysia or Thailand. About the only advantage is that English is spoken well.

+1 for Hong Kong

All the comments and personal research I have done has indicated that overall KL is much cleaner, sanitary, safer overall than BKK.
It's better in all three respects, but not necessarily by all that much. Having lived around a year in each, I've eaten plenty of street food in both and never gotten sick, and there are places in both that I wouldn't venture to at night. KUL does have an edge infrastructurewise, although BKK is catching up pretty fast with the airport rail link, recent Skytrain extensions and whatnot.

Also, I'm not sure I entirely agree with people saying Bangkok (/Thailand) is culturally more interesting than KL (/Malaysia). BKK has more big-ticket must-see attractions, to be sure, and more than its fair share of interesting little minority bubbles (Chinatown, Soi Arab, Little India/Pahurat, etc), but it's still fundamentally a Thai monoculture. KUL, on the other hand, is shared by Malays, Chinese and Indians, and thus has sights, food and culture for each three in abundance.

In a word, no. It's surprisingly far from the rest of SE Asia (nearly 4 hours to Singapore!), hygiene and personal safety is seriously dodgy, and the food can't hold a candle to Malaysia or Thailand. About the only advantage is that English is spoken well.

+1 on the "personal safety" comment.

+1 on the "personal safety" comment.

I don't know if it has anything to do with me being Filipino or anything, but I find MNL in general (in general because I know places like Tondo, Payatas, et al. are not safe) to be pretty safe. And that also considers how the security establishment takes security a little too seriously back home (i.e. additional security checks at NAIA, photography bans which have only been lifted recently, etc.).

I don't know if it has anything to do with me being Filipino or anything, but I find MNL in general (in general because I know places like Tondo, Payatas, et al. are not safe) to be pretty safe. And that also considers how the security establishment takes security a little too seriously back home (i.e. additional security checks at NAIA, photography bans which have only been lifted recently, etc.).

It has everything to do with you being Filipino. It clouds your judgment. Though your feelings are loving and loyal, Manila or anywhere else in the Philippines does NOT fit the criteria and description of what this OP is looking for at this time. This is no way implies that all of the people, all of the time, should avoid the Philippines. It just means that the "match" isn't there in this situation.

It has everything to do with you being Filipino. It clouds your judgment. Though your feelings are loving and loyal, Manila or anywhere else in the Philippines does NOT fit the criteria and description of what this OP is looking for at this time. This is no way implies that all of the people, all of the time, should avoid the Philippines. It just means that the "match" isn't there in this situation.

I have lived outside the Philippines for a significant amount of time and I certainly know Manila is not up to par with cities like Kuala Lumpur or Singapore (Bangkok and Jakarta, based on what I've been hearing, are debatable, and so is Ho Chi Minh City). Heck, I currently live in WAW, and I know WAW is better than MNL in perhaps every metric possible, so I don't know how you came to the conclusion that my nationality clouds my judgement. :confused:

But if I were to interpret the OP's metrics properly, he said he wants a base that is "safe, clean and culturally interesting". Unfortunately, no city, major or minor, in Southeast Asia fits all three metrics perfectly, though I will agree that SIN comes the closest to this regard. That is despite a professor of mine once telling my class that lightning striking the control tower at Changi was front-page news in Singapore, and having lived there for six months he claimed it to be very boring albeit very amusing as well.

I'm merely throwing a suggestion here: just because we're on the other side of the South China Sea, it doesn't mean that people should think that Southeast Asia is merely Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia, and probably Vietnam too for good measure.

I have lived outside the Philippines for a significant amount of time and I certainly know Manila is not up to par with cities like Kuala Lumpur or Singapore (Bangkok and Jakarta, based on what I've been hearing, are debatable, and so is Ho Chi Minh City). Heck, I currently live in WAW, and I know WAW is better than MNL in perhaps every metric possible, so I don't know how you came to the conclusion that my nationality clouds my judgement. :confused:




MNL, CGK and SGN don't hold a candle to BKK. Sorry.

I have lived outside the Philippines for a significant amount of time and I certainly know Manila is not up to par with cities like Kuala Lumpur or Singapore (Bangkok and Jakarta, based on what I've been hearing, are debatable, and so is Ho Chi Minh City). Heck, I currently live in WAW, and I know WAW is better than MNL in perhaps every metric possible, so I don't know how you came to the conclusion that my nationality clouds my judgement. :confused:


Your nationality clouds your judgement because although you've spent so many years outside of the Philippines you speak the language, blend in and have a better ability to understand the unspoken nuances of behaviour than someone who has never spent time in the Philippines. This influences your sense of personal safety and ability to determine what is acceptable from a hygiene perspective and generally navigate the city/country. You have a better idea of what is going on around you.

I lived in Israel for many years. I speak Hebrew. My sense of personal security and my ability to navigate society is very different than a first time visitor. I have spent a great deal of time in India and Thailand over the past number of years. There are points where the lack of ability to speak the local languages can be an issue, but generally my ability to navigate and assess my surroundings is much better than someone who is on their first or second short trip.

A number of years ago I went on a business trip to Holland. It was the first time I was in a country where I could read the latin characters but had no idea what they said. I had to make my way from Schipol to a place called 's-Hertogenbosch by train. Generally Holland is a fairly safe place. I blend in. But the lack of language and inability to understand what I was reading gave me an uneasy feeling that I needed to ask much more often whether I was heading to the right place. When I finally arrived at 's-Hertogenbosch I found out that while I was trying to pronounce 's-Hertogenbosch the Dutch call the place "Den Bosch". So you can imagine a Dutch person that hadn't lived in Holland for many years would still have a much more comfortable experience than I had. The way you experience the Philippines is very different to the way a couple with young children who have never spent time there will experience it. They may have trouble getting their head around the signs that say "Please check your firearms before entering". Maybe they should avoid Texas as well. ;)

I don't know if it has anything to do with me being Filipino or anything, but I find MNL in general (in general because I know places like Tondo, Payatas, et al. are not safe) to be pretty safe. And that also considers how the security establishment takes security a little too seriously back home (i.e. additional security checks at NAIA, photography bans which have only been lifted recently, etc.).

It's been a while (9 years), but here are my salient points:

-all prominent buildings in Makati had armed guards
-my right hand man carried a hand gun at all times, and the back of his SUV was always packed with ammunition
-he is no longer "around"
-a high school classmate of mine was held hostage in the Phils for a year, and nearly had his head lopped off
-rebels took over my apartment in Makati the same evening my best friend arrived there
-the same best friend narrowly escaped being kidnapped, 2 years prior

Please don't quote this post in your replies to this thread; I will delete it 7 days from now.

moondog, on my first visit to Manila I had a similar awareness of the surroundings perhaps being pre-conditioned to the activities from what I saw on TV beforehand.... the armed guards, even at churches was an unavoidable site, you can't miss it.

I stayed in Malate and even the taxi driver taking me there from the airport asked me if I'm "sure" I wanted to get out there in the evening, within seconds of getting out of the cab I had a guy walk up to me offering girls for the night.

Makati was different in the sense that it was more modern and clean.

Never been, but in planning an upcoming trip, was interested to see how highly Penang/Georgetown ranked in terms of food


I think if one were turned off by some aspects of KUL or BKK, Penang or Phuket would be decent alternatives. Both places are well connected with a number of international flights, as well as domestic flights for thru-connections to other international destinations. Both Penang and Phuket have much to offer, and because they are popular tourist destination its a fairly competitive market so flights would be cheap, at least on par with KUL and BKK.

I just started a similar thread, though mine focuses on a much longer stay than a few months.

I did however spend seven months living in Singapore, six of them working on a workholiday pass. Fantastic experience, and I did exactly what the OP wants to do... based myself in the heart of Southeast Asia to explore the region.

I was on a very tight budget, and I did have to work so the majority of my trips were either day trips or weekend trips. It was super convenient, and relatively cheap. But in comparison I find Kuala Lumpur to be about half the price of Singapore in just about every respect.

From Singapore I managed to do about a dozen trips to Malaysia, both mainland and Borneo. A day trip to Jakarta and Bali. A weekend trip to the Philippines, Macao and Hong Kong, Taiwan, as well as several trips to Phuket and Krabi.


My experience going to Bangkok was not successful. It was too expensive when compared to other similar destinations so I simply didn't go there. Even flying from Phuket to Bangkok wasn't cheap. Though after leaving Singapore I've noticed prices came down slightly or at least there appears to be more sales.


While living in Singapore I did not exclusively fly Air Asia, in fact I flew more on Tiger and Jet Star Asia instead. What I found was leaving Singapore was the cheapest on Tiger Airways... they leave from the budget terminal which is outside the main 3 terminals of Changi, and you can often get free'ish flights, especially to KUL... for which I paid something like $17 SGD... Air Asia has recently started charging fuel surcharge which often doubles the very low fares they offer... but I did quite a few trips on the $2 bus across the Causeway into Johor Bahru to catch a cheap Air Asia flight to Borneo, as it is domestic from JHB and cost as low as $30 SGD round trip to Kota Kinabalu when I went... a similar trip originating from Singapore cost $40 SGD on Tiger, out to Kuching, Sarawak. Jet Star Asia often had the best timings as compared to Tiger, because they would allow you to leave early in the morning and return late in the evening... one of those trips I did to Jakarta for $50 SGD... one of my favorite trips. Though remember that Indonesia has both an visa on arrival and the departure tax, which I believe added up to be more than my flight there. Still a good way to see the city without having to stay there.


Best of luck to whatever you decide on. You really can't go wrong... the whole region is beautiful and I cannot wait to return there. I have already decided that Malaysia and probably Kuala Lumpur in particular is best fit for me :)

--Russ

I lived and worked in Indonesia many years ago, got married and started a family there. We've visited fairly often over the years (twice in the last few years) and remain in touch with friends and family in Singapore, Indonesia and Malaysia. This is about the best advice I've seen so far (it's post #28). What Russ says is right on - though my personal preference would be SIN :) Excellent point about crossing over to JB to take flights over to eastern Malaysia.

One additional point that I'd add, which I'm surprised has been slightly less prominent so far than I thought it would since children are involved, is health care. With two children of my own, SIN wins hands-down. I know there are good hospitals in all of the major cities, but I don't think SIN can be beat when you consider the number of hospitals, ease of access (anyone want to be in an ambulance fighting CGK traffic to get to an ER? Didn't think so.) the depth and breadth of specialties and - relative to the US, since that's where it looks like the OP is based - reasonable cost.

I'll keep reading the rest of the thread.....

DPS is a cheap destination from Perth OZ.....One of my dreams, is to spend lengthy periods of my retirement there.

Could not agree more....

First, hope this is a fantastic experience for your family, especially the children. What great memories this will make.

I really enjoyed (most of) the various perspectives in this thread.

Geographically, HKG or TYO just don't cut it as a base for SEAsia. Makes no sense to me, even if you've got millions of miles to spend on F tickets. You'd just spend too much time in the air. Absolutely worth a visit though if it fits your budget and schedule.

Interesting to see that MNL got a few mentions. Geographically, it's also probably a bit far away to use as a base. And the safety issues? Definitely a black mark.

CGK would be an enormous hassle; just too big a mess of a city to be a base. I remember when I was there I could only realistically schedule two business meetings a day because of traffic. And it's only gotten worse since then. It's also a business city. There are some tourist sites, but the better ones are outside the city if memory serves. If you go though, I would suggest the Aryaduta hotel there. It's in the business district and has a very distinctive Indonesian style. Good base for visiting the city. Of course, the Marriott there is another good choice.

DPS is a very intruiging suggestion. It does seem to meet the OP criteria. Flights would be slightly longer to most places, but you'd also have good access to Java, Kalimantan and Sulawesi (although maybe through CGK or SUB), as well as other islands in the archipelago. You could definitely find affordable rents I'm sure. There's plenty of entertainment, shopping and dining available (which for some reason reminds me that many Javanese often do not care for Balinese food, at least those that I know don't. They say it isn't as flavorful or spicy). And you could save the airfare you might othewise spend getting to DPS for one of your side trips and put it towards a week/long weekend in Nusa Dua or at one of the very upscale hotels (Bulgari, or one of the Aman family of resorts come to mind). On the negative side, traffic jams at peak hours are very bad (this is based on a trip in the last 12 months or so). No fun.

KUL doesn't seem like a bad choice. I don't know it nearly as well as SIN, but I agree with the positive comments about the flavorful food, it has many modern conveniences you're going to want at your base, and it's pretty safe. Plus it is pretty cheap.

The other thing that I noted as I read through the thread is that no one has mentioned possible culture shock issues. I know you didn't mention it, and its likely you have far more awareness than most Americans, but this is something to think about since your base will be 'home'.

Having been an expat, the newness and wonder of being immersed in a new and totally different culture (Indonesia) fairly quickly gave way to everyday hassles of living. Things that I took for granted at home, like communication with colleagues at work, shopping for groceries/clothing/etc, ordering food in a restaurant, just taking a taxi, etc. etc. can be very, very difficult. Fortunately, the national language uses Roman letters, so at least I could read signs and hazard a guess at pronunciation, possibly meaning. But Thai? Forget it.

It's amusing, even entertaining at first. But, it can become highly frustrating over time. I mean, you'd better know your kiri from your kanan when giving the cab driver directions, lest you wind up completely lost. That can be quite maddening, especially at 8pm when all you want to do is get home and get the kids in bed.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a fantastic thing to do. But, these culture considerations are another big reason aside from health care why I suggest SIN as your base (assuming you can swing the cost). For me, it was a safe, secure haven - a refreshing and relatively familiar place to regroup before taking the plunge and going back to Indonesia. It might work the same way for your family before you take each plunge into yet another new and fascinating culture.

All the best to you. Let us know what you decide. And post if you can during your trip.

I reckon he's chasing a lifestyle thing - not primaryily a CBD and airport.
What does this mean? I don't know what a "lifestyle thing" is.


Are the airport taxis controlled by mafias, and whats the fare like for a short ride out of the airport permeter ?

How are the public transport like, and is it easy to get around the island ?

How is the food in Bali compared with Bangkok, Singapore or Kuala Lumpur ?

How are medical facilities as compared with Bangkok, Singapore or Kuala Lumpur ?

Can somebody please answer these questions regarding Bali?

MNL, CGK and SGN don't hold a candle to BKK. Sorry.

MNL cant hold a candle? Not if you are a single man:cool:;)

MNL cant hold a candle? Not if you are a single man:cool:;)
Does marital status have an effect on finding a hub for SE Asian travel? The OP has already stated they are married with two young children.

And how many hours to Hanoi ?


Per Kayak.com, looks like about 6 hours, not including layover time. I checked going through SIN, which is about 2hr from DPS. SIN to HAN is about 3.5 hrs.

How are the fares out of DPS as compared to BKK or SIN ?


Dunno. See www.kayak.com or your favorite travel site/agent.

Are the airport taxis controlled by mafias, and whats the fare like for a short ride out of the airport permeter ?


No idea about the mafia question, nor the cab fare. My suggestion to the OP (and anyone else) is to hire a car for a day if you need to do any significant driving. The car should come with a driver. Strongly suggest you NOT drive yourself there.

How are the public transport like, and is it easy to get around the island ?


Don't really know that much about the public transport in Bali (buses mainly, there are no trains like the MRT in SIN), but if you're staying in Kuta, Sanur or Nusa Dua, or other fairly populated area, its easy to get a cab to/from the airport. Of course, your hotel may also offer a shuttle. Within each area, I think there is enough transport to get you around that area. Nusa Dua for example, has frequent shuttles to and from the hotels the little shopping/dining plaza and the golf course. It's when you want to go from one to the other where I think its best to have your own vehicle.

How is the food in Bali compared with Bangkok, Singapore or Kuala Lumpur ?


Don't know anything about BKK, but I think Bali is a little more limited than SIN and KUL. In SIN, you can get just about anything you're looking for - Japanese, Indian, American, Italian, French, etc. etc. - and at many different price points. Bali has a pretty wide variety too, which is obviously driven by the tourists. But, quality is more varied. There are also Russian restaurants there. I mentioned in a previous post that many Javanese do not like local Balinese food - at least, those that I know. I think its relatively bland compared to some of the spicy dishes you can get in Java.

How are medical facilities as compared with Bangkok, Singapore or Kuala Lumpur ?


Never had to use them in DPS, so not speaking from experience, but I think they are adequate for minor issues (simple ER cases) and to stabilize a patient in more serious cases prior to flying out to get care from a specialist in say, SIN, DRW, maybe CGK.

...But suggesting DPS as a base to travel around SE Asia is pure lunacy !

Strongly disagree. Maybe for you it is, but a decent case can be made for DPS. See my earlier post about this. At least one other post has mentioned pretty low airfares vs. Oz at least. So there are definitely pluses to DPS.

At least one other post has mentioned pretty low airfares vs. Oz at least.

Airfares need to be compared to BKK, KUL, SIN not Oz. Oz isn't even in the running.

For airfares SIN is definitely the best, as Tiger is more often than not significantly cheaper than Airasia.
One example: HKG/MFM-SIN-SGN is at times half the price of HKG/MFM-BKK-SGN (I live in Hong Kong)
even KUL-SIN-final destination could be an economic option.

MNL cant hold a candle? Not if you are a single man:cool:;)

OP is going with family.

I think we're all aware there's something to go to MNL for. Food, history, safety are not on that list.

First, hope this is a fantastic experience for your family, especially the children. What great memories this will make.[quote]

Agreed.

[QUOTE=illinidad;18024909]Geographically, HKG or TYO just don't cut it as a base for SEAsia. Makes no sense to me...You'd just spend too much time in the air....

Interesting to see that MNL got a few mentions. Geographically, it's also probably a bit far away to use as a base. And the safety issues? Definitely a black mark....

DPS is a very intruiging suggestion.

Why? DPS has few direct flights. It's on the edge of SE Asia in the same way the HKG is on the edge - and you outright cut HKG from your list. Getting to BKK, SGN, HAN, VTE, RGN, KUL from DPS is at least as long as HKG or MNL and yet you knocked both of those off your list.

DPS would be a great place for OP to visit in their 3 months, I don't see it as a feasible hub.

KUL doesn't seem like a bad choice. I don't know it nearly as well as SIN, but I agree with the positive comments about the flavorful food, it has many modern conveniences you're going to want at your base, and it's pretty safe. Plus it is pretty cheap.

KUL isn't a bad choice. I'd rate it second to BKK. :D

The other thing that I noted as I read through the thread is that no one has mentioned possible culture shock issues. I know you didn't mention it, and its likely you have far more awareness than most Americans, but this is something to think about since your base will be 'home'.

Culture shock that a 3 month visit begets is very different from that an expat learns about.

Having been an expat, the newness and wonder of being immersed in a new and totally different culture (Indonesia)....Fortunately, the national language uses Roman letters, so at least I could read signs and hazard a guess at pronunciation, possibly meaning. But Thai? Forget it.



Pronunciation can be problematic, it's why I learned to read Thai. :D

Understandably this is not an option for the normal tourist, but there are many people who have lived in Thailand for years and barely know how to introduce themselves in Thai. For what OP desires to do the language barrier won't be problematic in Thailand.

Your nationality clouds your judgement because although you've spent so many years outside of the Philippines you speak the language, blend in and have a better ability to understand the unspoken nuances of behaviour than someone who has never spent time in the Philippines. This influences your sense of personal safety and ability to determine what is acceptable from a hygiene perspective and generally navigate the city/country. You have a better idea of what is going on around you.

I lived in Israel for many years. I speak Hebrew. My sense of personal security and my ability to navigate society is very different than a first time visitor. I have spent a great deal of time in India and Thailand over the past number of years. There are points where the lack of ability to speak the local languages can be an issue, but generally my ability to navigate and assess my surroundings is much better than someone who is on their first or second short trip.

A number of years ago I went on a business trip to Holland. It was the first time I was in a country where I could read the latin characters but had no idea what they said. I had to make my way from Schipol to a place called 's-Hertogenbosch by train. Generally Holland is a fairly safe place. I blend in. But the lack of language and inability to understand what I was reading gave me an uneasy feeling that I needed to ask much more often whether I was heading to the right place. When I finally arrived at 's-Hertogenbosch I found out that while I was trying to pronounce 's-Hertogenbosch the Dutch call the place "Den Bosch". So you can imagine a Dutch person that hadn't lived in Holland for many years would still have a much more comfortable experience than I had. The way you experience the Philippines is very different to the way a couple with young children who have never spent time there will experience it. They may have trouble getting their head around the signs that say "Please check your firearms before entering". Maybe they should avoid Texas as well. ;)

"'s Hertogenbosch" and "Den Bosch" are interchangeable, unlike, for instance, 's Gravenhage and Den Haag ("The Hague"), where 's Gravenhage is considered antiquated.

But yeah, it's a real bummer the way road signs don't reflect the dual name situation. It must be horrendous to be driving around endlessly trying to find "Den Bosch", which your map says is right there, but meanwhile it's nowhere to be found on any road sign.

But yeah, it's a real bummer the way road signs don't reflect the dual name situation. It must be horrendous to be driving around endlessly trying to find "Den Bosch", which your map says is right there, but meanwhile it's nowhere to be found on any road sign.
This can happen in other places too, including Singapore where New Bridge Road is briefly Eu Tong Sen Street :)

This can happen in other places too, including Singapore where New Bridge Road is briefly Eu Tong Sen Street :)
Nope -- it looks like a single ordinary road to us mere mortals, but New Bridge Rd is the southbound lanes, and Eu Tong Sen St is the northbound lanes (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Eu+Tong+Sen+Street+Singapore&hl=en&ll=1.284864,103.844823&spn=0.00753,0.013937&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=48.50801,114.169922&oq=eu+tong+sen+&hnear=Eu+Tong+Sen+St,+Singapore&t=h&z=17)! :eek:

Nope -- it looks like a single ordinary road to us mere mortals, but New Bridge Rd is the southbound lanes, and Eu Tong Sen St is the northbound lanes (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Eu+Tong+Sen+Street+Singapore&hl=en&ll=1.284864,103.844823&spn=0.00753,0.013937&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=48.50801,114.169922&oq=eu+tong+sen+&hnear=Eu+Tong+Sen+St,+Singapore&t=h&z=17)! :eek:

with a covered canal in the middle?

with a covered canal in the middle?
Yup!

Thought I should give an update. We did make the trip and decided on Kuala Lumpur for our main "hub" as we traveled around SE Asia for 4 months.

From our base, we did trips to Thailand, Indonesia, Cambodia, Vietnam, Singapore and the island of Borneo (Malaysian side).

For our circumstance we felt like we made a great choice. We did Singapore (a lot more expensive - yet nice) and Bangkok (dirty, crazy and a bit cheaper).

KUL had a lot to offer our family and we didn't get bored. We found a furnished condo 100 yards from the Petronas Towers so we were able to walk to shops and restaurants and taxis are very reasonable. English is widely spoken and the variety of cultures kept things interesting. There were a number of different holidays/festivals while we were there.

We used Air Asia (I think we had 10 different RT flights) and they were a great airline. Clean, never once late. I signed up for their email newsletter so I got notified when they were running a sale. For the really cheap tickets you need to book quite a bit in advance. KUL is their hub so it was non-stop flights everywhere we went.

Thanks to everyone who gave meaningful advice which helped us plan our trip.

Thanks for updating. Glad to hear you had a great time!

Did you receive any frequent flier benefits during that time? 10 segments seems like it should have been worth something.

Do you think it made financial sense for KUL to be your hub versus somewhere else? Direct flights on a budget airline had to have helped the budget quite a bit.

Did you run into any issues with the hub strategy? (Examples: visas, leaving and entering the country often, paying for an apartment and hotel while gone).

What percentage or how often did you go "abroad" and how much time was spent at "home"?

Thanks for updating the thread. I thought it was an interesting thread back then.

Malaysia didn't require any visas so it was easy to come and go. I think you can be in the country for up to 60 days at a time which was not a problem at all.

We didn't sign up for FF from Air Asia because their program is pretty limited and I don't think we'll be in that part of the world for quite some time now.

Our 3 bedroom furnished condo worked out to be about $65 a night so even though we were there only half the time it was still much better than getting a hotel that we'd have to vacate each time.

Besides seeing SE Asia, we wanted to experience what it would be like to actually "live" in a foreign country so that was another reason for a "hub". Being able to travel very light from place to place was a great help as well.

We tended to be away a week and "home" a week during our trip.

Another bonus of having a "home" was that friends were able to come and visit us. We actually had 3 people come and do that.

It was a fantastic bonding experience for our family and it worked out to be the right amount of time for what we set out to do.

Glad to hear your adventure turned out well. With hindsight, it sounds like KL was probably the right balance for in your circumstances between a sufficient level of Anglophone Western comfort and Asian exoticism. Singapore beats it for the former, and Bangkok for the latter, but KL was the appropriate Goldilocks city for you.

Anyone of three contenders listed would probably have been ok for OP's needs. KL (not KUL, that's the airport code) and Singapore are similar in outlook with KL's city centre being a little more compact than Singapore. Bangkok would have been fine if not a little less of English spoken but that's the fun of living in a foreign country,isn't it? All three are hubs for LCC travels. If cost matters, then Bangkok or KL. Both are fascinating cities, if I may say so myself. Anyway glad it all worked out for the OP.

I was glad to see this thread pop back up to the top. I am planning a similar experience when hubby and I retire in 5-8 years. We want to move to SE Asia and become expats permanently, giving up our US citizenship eventually. We plan to try out different countries in 3 to 6 month increments to find the place we'd like to move to.

We'll rent an apartment in a city, travel around SE Asia from there, go back to the US for a few months. Then pick another city, rent an apartment, and travel some more. We'll get to "try out" different locales before making a permanent commitment and applying for citizenship elsewhere. We'll probably start with Bangkok or KL.

For retirement living: Malaysia has a retirement PR visa that is easily obtained by proof of asset or secure pension.

For retirement living: Malaysia has a retirement PR visa that is easily obtained by proof of asset or secure pension.

Looks like the MM2H Malaysia My Second Home visa is what would work.
Assets of $100K US and $3K US monthly pension income are required. That's far more than Thailand requires, but a fraction of Australia and NZ's asset requirements. I has considered both of those countries but they are too expensive.

Housing in KUL has dropped in price in the last few years with the softening of the Real Estate market so lots of people are going in and buying a 2nd home.

I meant KL (Kuala Lumpur). KUL is the airport code -- and the airport is 45 minutes from the city.

Housing in KUL has dropped in price in the last few years with the softening of the Real Estate market so lots of people are going in and buying a 2nd home.

Not quite; while rentals for the expatriate market have dropped considerably, selling prices have remained stable despite the sharp increases in recent years.

Not quite; while rentals for the expatriate market have dropped considerably, selling prices have remained stable despite the sharp increases in recent years.

That wasn't what the real estate agent we used told me. I didn't get the impression that there was a "crash" in the prices but there was a drop from a few years back when things were booming.

I was glad to see this thread pop back up to the top. I am planning a similar experience when hubby and I retire in 5-8 years. We want to move to SE Asia and become expats permanently, giving up our US citizenship eventually. We plan to try out different countries in 3 to 6 month increments to find the place we'd like to move to.

We'll rent an apartment in a city, travel around SE Asia from there, go back to the US for a few months. Then pick another city, rent an apartment, and travel some more. We'll get to "try out" different locales before making a permanent commitment and applying for citizenship elsewhere. We'll probably start with Bangkok or KL.


Sounds like you have the right idea in staying for several months in a few places before you make a decision.

Personally, as much as I enjoy visiting Thailand (especially) and the rest of SE Asia I don't think I could ever live there full time. Too many cultural issues and the weather would really wear me down. And unfortunately I think I am too old to learn the language effectively. A couple of words here and there does not fluency make. But if you have good language ability it can be done. I've heard from plenty of ex-pats who never learn the language, but I think that makes life a lot more difficult. Of course Bangkok will be under water if you believe that global climate change is going to have the predicted effects.

That wasn't what the real estate agent we used told me. I didn't get the impression that there was a "crash" in the prices but there was a drop from a few years back when things were booming.

Only true in and around KLCC area where prices were unrealistically inflated before construction even began. For all other areas its still at an all time high, maybe some very slight softening.

Only true in and around KLCC area where prices were unrealistically inflated before construction even began. For all other areas its still at an all time high, maybe some very slight softening.


Ahhh. We did live in the KLCC area. We lived in the Idaman Apartments - 100 yards from the Petronas Towers.

I do have the ability to easily learn foreign languages. The Asian country I'd be most comfortable living in permanently would be Japan, as I speak some Japanese and did live there for one year teaching English in 1989. But as others here have noted it is a bit far from SE Asia and the weather sucks. I don't want to have winters again when I retire.

Sadly, we only spent a short time in Tokyo so didn't get a good idea of Japan as a whole. We did find Tokyo to be rather un-Asian (looked like any Western big city). The people were wonderful. The food was definitely Asian, but didn't feel like we were experiencing anything unique. But I can also see why it might be comfortable for a Westerner to live there.

Sadly, we only spent a short time in Tokyo so didn't get a good idea of Japan as a whole. We did find Tokyo to be rather un-Asian (looked like any Western big city). The people were wonderful. The food was definitely Asian, but didn't feel like we were experiencing anything unique. But I can also see why it might be comfortable for a Westerner to live there.

I lived in Kurashiki, Okayama-ken, when there. It was like being in the midwest of Japan. If I were to ever live there it would not be in Tokyo.

This has been a really cool thread to read.

Bangkok and Kuala Lumpur would have had my vote as well. Considering the OP's situation, he made the right choice. KL is clean, relatively safe and the English-speaking factor clinches the deal.

It was interesting to hear people's thoughts on living in Asia as an expat. I did that for 5 years in my 20's. China, later Taiwan, also backpacked around Southeast Asia. Lots of fun, wouldn't give back those memories for anything.

However, I did always feel like an "outsider." Hard to describe, but I felt disconnected. I could spend a few months in Asia every year from now on, but I don't think I could live there permanently.

Anyway, I could talk about this topic for hours. I'll digress now :p

It was definitely a gamble but I did as much research as possible (including seeking advice on the forum). In the end we definitely felt like we made the right choice for our family by picking Kuala Lumpur as our base.

It was definitely a gamble but I did as much research as possible (including seeking advice on the forum). In the end we definitely felt like we made the right choice for our family by picking Kuala Lumpur as our base.

If AirAsia didn't exist at all, do you think Kuala Lumpur would have been the best choice? I'm assuming it was the best largely because of the cheap and easy air connections to pretty much everywhere in the region. (Also because of the cost of living)

If AirAsia didn't exist at all, do you think Kuala Lumpur would have been the best choice? I'm assuming it was the best largely because of the cheap and easy air connections to pretty much everywhere in the region. (Also because of the cost of living)


That is a great question. Since KUL is the main hub of AirAsia - and therefore plenty of low cost direct flights - it definitely tipped the scales to Kuala Lumpur.

However, even without AirAsia I think it would have been our 1st choice since there are other low cost airlines that fly from KUL. The base city had to be more than a jumping off point -- it had to be a "liveable" city which KL truly fit the bill.

When you consider level of culture, civility and English comprehension only one would still pick KL; Air Asia hub for SE Asia travel is a bonus.

When you consider level of culture, civility and English comprehension only one would still pick KL....

Not that I have a horse in this race, but wouldn't Penang meet this metric as well, or are you saying that Penang doesn't qualify as a "city"?

Penang doesn't have the ability to be a transportation "hub" quite like Kuala Lumpur and other major SE Asia cities. That is assuming that is one of the goals -- to easily and somewhat inexpensively get to other places in SE Asia.

Penang doesn't have the ability to be a transportation "hub" quite like Kuala Lumpur and other major SE Asia cities. That is assuming that is one of the goals -- to easily and somewhat inexpensively get to other places in SE Asia.

No, I do get the "hub" issue, but if I understood tentseller's post, it seemed to speak to "only" the issues of "level of culture, civility and English comprehension", which seem to define what I understand remotely of Penang, but am on my way this summer so I will have more than an armchair view moving forward.

Penang, being a smaller city and not the political/financial hub could be more livable to some.

Air Asia hub for SE Asia travel is a bonus.

Bangkok is a hub for several budget airlnes (including Thai Air Asia) plus more airlines fly to BKK. KUL has the disadvantage of many routes being monopolized by Air Asia.

Cost of living in KL is ridiculously high (except accommodation) due to crony capitalism practiced there. I find that day to day living cost is generally 30-50% lower in Bangkok, and things function much more efficiently there. The only advantage KL has over Bangkok is that English is more widely understood, and the city is generally cleaner.

KL may seem 'perfect' at first glance, but if you stay longer to discover these places, Bangkok is a far more liveable city.

Bangkok is a hub for several budget airlnes (including Thai Air Asia) plus more airlines fly to BKK. KUL has the disadvantage of many routes being monopolized by Air Asia.

Cost of living in KL is ridiculously high (except accommodation) due to crony capitalism practiced there. I find that day to day living cost is generally 30-50% lower in Bangkok, and things function much more efficiently there. The only advantage KL has over Bangkok is that English is more widely understood, and the city is generally cleaner.

KL may seem 'perfect' at first glance, but if you stay longer to discover these places, Bangkok is a far more liveable city.


I would save Kuala Lumpur is *significantly* cleaner and less congested. It is more expensive however.

I would save Kuala Lumpur is *significantly* cleaner and less congested. It is more expensive however.

I like the way someone on FT described Bangkok, "organized chaos" ^
Chaotic and congested as it may be, but things are organized and seems to run smoothly.

KL seems to be a product of poor planning & mismanagement. You find that the inner city trains would skirt past high density centers like "Mid Valley" and stations are built at illogical places. Taxis are in deplorable state and most appear to be on the verge of falling apart. And if you need to purchase a car, be prepared to pay outrageous prices, so as to enrich cronies aligned to the ruling political party. Not a bad place to visit, but once your scratch beneath the surface you will discover why many are leaving or rather have left ....

I wouldn't want to live in KL permanently -- but honestly, there is no other place in Asia that I would want to do that either (at least at this stage of my life).

But as a hub for exploring that part of the world --- a very good choice.

Excellent replies, thanks for the info!! ^

What about Saigon. Been spending a lot of time there recently. Very low cost of living. Air connections are not bad. Bit hot. Good food. Language is a bit of stumbling block. Very vibrant.

Didn't make it to Saigon but did make it to Hanoi. Saigon just didnt have the right things for a base for us.

Could you give me an idea what made you decide for KUL over places like BKK or SIN?

I'm considering doing the same, probably got a sabbatical coming up this winter and a few months in Asia would be nice. Trying to decide between BKK or KUL as a base.... any ballpark what my living expenses would be for renting a place there?

One of the major benefits of KUL seems to be the more relaxed visa requirements versus BKK. Although I wonder if arriving 5-8 times in a 3-4 month period would be a problem.

If you go back and read the posts you will see why we ended up with KUL over the other places (and looking back felt it was the right choice for us).

We were in and out of the country at least 8 times in the 4 months we were there and that was never a problem.

We had a very nice large 3 bedroom furnished condo in the KLCC (Petronas Towers area) that we rented for $1700 a month. Lots more 1 and 2 bedroom "serviced apartments" are available.

One of the major benefits of KUL seems to be the more relaxed visa requirements versus BKK. Although I wonder if arriving 5-8 times in a 3-4 month period would be a problem.

If you intend to stay in country for an extended time than Malaysia is more convenient than Thailand. If you intend to exit and re-enter the country multiple times then neither country has a benefit (or detriment) over the other.

Could you give me an idea what made you decide for KUL over places like BKK or SIN?

I'm considering doing the same, probably got a sabbatical coming up this winter and a few months in Asia would be nice. Trying to decide between BKK or KUL as a base.... any ballpark what my living expenses would be for renting a place there?

One of the major benefits of KUL seems to be the more relaxed visa requirements versus BKK. Although I wonder if arriving 5-8 times in a 3-4 month period would be a problem.
There's no advantage at all, since you'll be coming and going. The OP made the right decision for a family WITH KIDS. Unless you're bringing the kids as well, Bangkok is the better choice. In KL you'll be wondering - where's the fun ? You can get a nice short term apt near BTS for < 20,000B.

Didn't make it to Saigon but did make it to Hanoi. Saigon just didnt have the right things for a base for us.

Curious about what didn't fit the bill. I'm a big Tokyo (read creature comforts) fan, but I find Saigon surprisingly livable and quite fun and interesting.

Curious about what didn't fit the bill. I'm a big Tokyo (read creature comforts) fan, but I find Saigon surprisingly livable and quite fun and interesting.

Thanks all... it's most likely going to be BKK since I've been there before and know what to expect. But KUL is on the list to visit shortly so I might have a better idea what I like more.

I will look further into the possible visa issues. As a European I don't see any issues for Malasia, but I only see a Thailand visa for a max of 3x90 days with multiple entries. That could be a problem, but I guess I don't really need a visum for Thailand and that multiple entries in a short period won't be a problem.

Thanks all... it's most likely going to be BKK since I've been there before and know what to expect. But KUL is on the list to visit shortly so I might have a better idea what I like more.

I will look further into the possible visa issues. As a European I don't see any issues for Malasia, but I only see a Thailand visa for a max of 3x90 days with multiple entries. That could be a problem, but I guess I don't really need a visum for Thailand and that multiple entries in a short period won't be a problem.

If you plan to travel aroudn the region don't spend a dime on visas to Thailand. You are most likely allowed a 30 day visa exemption stamp upon each arrival via air. If you plan on staying in country for longer periods then get a visa at that time.

There's no advantage at all, since you'll be coming and going. The OP made the right decision for a family WITH KIDS. Unless you're bringing the kids as well, Bangkok is the better choice. In KL you'll be wondering - where's the fun ? You can get a nice short term apt near BTS for < 20,000B.


Depends on your definition of fun. If you want late night clubs and bars, etc. KL has that. If you are looking for prostitution and drugs then BKK definitely has KL beat.

Depends on your definition of fun. If you want late night clubs and bars, etc. KL has that. If you are looking for prostitution and drugs then BKK definitely has KL beat.

I work in Amsterdam so no need to go looking for that kind of fun in BKK :-).

Thanks all... it's most likely going to be BKK since I've been there before and know what to expect. But KUL is on the list to visit shortly so I might have a better idea what I like more.

I will look further into the possible visa issues. As a European I don't see any issues for Malasia, but I only see a Thailand visa for a max of 3x90 days with multiple entries. That could be a problem, but I guess I don't really need a visum for Thailand and that multiple entries in a short period won't be a problem.

Seriously, either Bangkok or KL will be fine. There are plenty of expats in both cities, many of them by their own choosing.If you plan to do a lot travelling, a 30 day visa on entry should suffice. The only thing I find annoying is the sporadic coverage of the 3G network in Bangkok.

Depends on your definition of fun. If you want late night clubs and bars, etc. KL has that. If you are looking for prostitution and drugs then BKK definitely has KL beat.
So you're telling me that the only differences between KL and BKK are whores and drugs ? Cut it out, my sides are killing me ! Only been 2X, but I found KL profoundly boring. Not a bad place, but nothing to bring me back. Much prefer Penang. KL appears to me to be a better place to live than visit. I like the SGN idea though.

Depends on your definition of fun. If you want late night clubs and bars, etc. KL has that. If you are looking for prostitution and drugs then BKK definitely has KL beat.

Dude seriously? That's the best you've got?

I guess we know where you spend time in Bangkok because the city I know doesn't have that negative vibe and is infinitely more enjoyable than KL.

Dude seriously? That's the best you've got?

I guess we know where you spend time in Bangkok because the city I know doesn't have that negative vibe and is infinitely more enjoyable than KL.



We couldn't walk around Bangkok at night with our children because all the street markets had sex toys and videos. Perhaps we were just in the "wrong" part of town. I am sure there are more family friendly parts of BKK but we clearly were not staying there.

One of the major benefits of KUL seems to be the more relaxed visa requirements versus BKK. Although I wonder if arriving 5-8 times in a 3-4 month period would be a problem.

Double check this - I recall if you visit are in Thailand more than X days a year, they 'might' require a visa....it's not always enforced and I think it was to keep riiffraffs with little money to stay long term.

We couldn't walk around Bangkok at night with our children because all the street markets had sex toys and videos. Perhaps we were just in the "wrong" part of town.

Sorry to read this...Bkk is such a nice place and what you ran into is usually confined to only a few locations.... which unfortunately includes the lower Soi areas on Sukhumvit [tourist area for some].

Double check this - I recall if you visit are in Thailand more than X days a year, they 'might' require a visa....it's not always enforced and I think it was to keep riiffraffs with little money to stay long term.


I've never heard of this (which is not to say it doesn't exist).

In December 2008 a change was made to visa exemption stamps where entry by air continued to receive the 30 days and entry by land was limited to 15 days. This was absolutely intended to target the 'riffraff' and deter them from multiple visa runs.

At the same time a prior policy, whereby foreigners could only use visa exemption stamps for 90 days in every 180 period, was scrapped.

Are you possibly remembering the latter, no longer used, policy?

I was also referring to that rule... on the site of the Thai Consulate in Amsterdam the following text is posted:

If you travel to Thailand for 30 days or longer, or if you intend to visit Thailand multiple times in a short period of time, than you are required to get a visa.

That last part is probably not really enforced and couldn't be more vague (how many times in how short a time frame?).....

And of course the visa they offer are of no use when you intend to make Thailand your base of travel, you can only get a multiple entry visa for 3x90 days. And each entry will mean one of those 3 periods will be used, even when staying less than the 90 days.

I was also referring to that rule... on the site of the Thai Consulate in Amsterdam the following text is posted:

If you travel to Thailand for 30 days or longer, or if you intend to visit Thailand multiple times in a short period of time, than you are required to get a visa.

That last part is probably not really enforced and couldn't be more vague (how many times in how short a time frame?).....

And of course the visa they offer are of no use when you intend to make Thailand your base of travel, you can only get a multiple entry visa for 3x90 days. And each entry will mean one of those 3 periods will be used, even when staying less than the 90 days.

The quote you give is likely a relic of the policy that is no longer in effect.

There are periods where I'm in and out of Thailand seemingly 3x per month and nothign is ever said to me.

Attention American Citizens:

The Thai Immigration Bureau recently announced a change in Visa Regulations that is scheduled to go into effect on October 1, 2006. This change will affect citizens of 39 countries, including American citizens, who are exempt from obtaining a Thai visa prior to entering Thailand. Effective October 1, 2006, American citizens who enter Thailand without a visa will be allowed to stay in Thailand for 30 days per visit as before. However, the total duration of stay in Thailand for American citizens who enter Thailand without a visa cannot exceed 90 days in any six-month period, counting from the date of first entry.

American citizens who wish to remain in Thailand for longer than 90 days during any six-month period will be required to obtain a valid Thai visa from a Thai Embassy or Consulate that is authorized to issue visas. The U.S. Embassy advises all American citizens who wish to obtain a Thai visa to contact the Thai Immigration Bureau for exact visa requirements and regulations. Persons who do not comply with the new visa regulations risk being denied reentry to Thailand at the border.

The U.S. Embassy has been attempting to seek clarifications and additional information from the Thai Immigration Bureau regarding the change in visa regulations. To date the Embassy has been unable to determine whether American citizens who have been in Thailand for 90 days or longer without a visa before October 1, 2006 will be considered
to have reached their 90-day limit on October 1, 2006, or whether the 90 days will start from the first time the American citizen crosses the border into Thailand after the new regulation goes into effect. When/if the Embassy receives a definitive answer to this question we will post that information on the Embassy's web site at:
http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/index.htm.

As I said earlier, not sure how strict they are with enforcement [or whether they have amended it since 2006]....

That sound like the reason for the statement I found.... not too bad, with travel outside the country 90days will be 4-5 months.

Attention American Citizens:

The Thai Immigration Bureau recently announced a change in Visa Regulations that is scheduled to go into effect on October 1, 2006. This change will affect citizens of 39 countries, including American citizens, who are exempt from obtaining a Thai visa prior to entering Thailand. Effective October 1, 2006, American citizens who enter Thailand without a visa will be allowed to stay in Thailand for 30 days per visit as before. However, the total duration of stay in Thailand for American citizens who enter Thailand without a visa cannot exceed 90 days in any six-month period, counting from the date of first entry.

American citizens who wish to remain in Thailand for longer than 90 days during any six-month period will be required to obtain a valid Thai visa from a Thai Embassy or Consulate that is authorized to issue visas. The U.S. Embassy advises all American citizens who wish to obtain a Thai visa to contact the Thai Immigration Bureau for exact visa requirements and regulations. Persons who do not comply with the new visa regulations risk being denied reentry to Thailand at the border.

The U.S. Embassy has been attempting to seek clarifications and additional information from the Thai Immigration Bureau regarding the change in visa regulations. To date the Embassy has been unable to determine whether American citizens who have been in Thailand for 90 days or longer without a visa before October 1, 2006 will be considered
to have reached their 90-day limit on October 1, 2006, or whether the 90 days will start from the first time the American citizen crosses the border into Thailand after the new regulation goes into effect. When/if the Embassy receives a definitive answer to this question we will post that information on the Embassy's web site at:
http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/index.htm.

As I said earlier, not sure how strict they are with enforcement [or whether they have amended it since 2006]....
I know guys that live in Thailand full time and have been doing 'Visa Runs' for 10 years.

Attention American Citizens:

The Thai Immigration Bureau recently announced a change in Visa Regulations that is scheduled to go into effect on October 1, 2006. This change will affect citizens of 39 countries, including American citizens, who are exempt from obtaining a Thai visa prior to entering Thailand. Effective October 1, 2006, American citizens who enter Thailand without a visa will be allowed to stay in Thailand for 30 days per visit as before. However, the total duration of stay in Thailand for American citizens who enter Thailand without a visa cannot exceed 90 days in any six-month period, counting from the date of first entry.

American citizens who wish to remain in Thailand for longer than 90 days during any six-month period will be required to obtain a valid Thai visa from a Thai Embassy or Consulate that is authorized to issue visas. The U.S. Embassy advises all American citizens who wish to obtain a Thai visa to contact the Thai Immigration Bureau for exact visa requirements and regulations. Persons who do not comply with the new visa regulations risk being denied reentry to Thailand at the border.

The U.S. Embassy has been attempting to seek clarifications and additional information from the Thai Immigration Bureau regarding the change in visa regulations. To date the Embassy has been unable to determine whether American citizens who have been in Thailand for 90 days or longer without a visa before October 1, 2006 will be considered
to have reached their 90-day limit on October 1, 2006, or whether the 90 days will start from the first time the American citizen crosses the border into Thailand after the new regulation goes into effect. When/if the Embassy receives a definitive answer to this question we will post that information on the Embassy's web site at:
http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/index.htm.

As I said earlier, not sure how strict they are with enforcement [or whether they have amended it since 2006]....


THis is no longer in effect since, in Dec 2008, the new regs were instituted whereby arriving via land gave a 15 day visa exemption allowance but by air remained at 30 days.

The reasoning, so I'm led to believe, was if you can't afford to fly in and out then the gov doesn't want you hanging around.

I had some friends who were "diverted" to KUL when BKK was shut down by the PAD. They came overland into Thailand and were among the first to receive the 15 day allocation... which they were not aware of expecting 30 days. It was quite a surprise, and expense, when they left 27 days later.

That sound like the reason for the statement I found.... not too bad, with travel outside the country 90days will be 4-5 months.

It is a relic and no longer in effect.

What's the big deal for getting e resident visa for Thailand? Is it expensive like Australia or NZ? Is it complicated? When I checked the financial requirement was only $20K or so in the bank.

What's the big deal for getting e resident visa for Thailand? Is it expensive like Australia or NZ? Is it complicated? When I checked the financial requirement was only $20K or so in the bank.

The retirement visa has, along with the ~$20K requirement, the need to show monthly income and is only eligible to those over a certain age.

Then the fun begins with filing. And I'm pretty sure you need to present yourself at immigration every 3 months like those who hold other types of non-immigrant visas.

The best way if you're not old enough (50) for a retirement visa, is to get a Non-Immigrant Ed Visa. You can sign up for a Thai language school and they'll walk you through the visa process. 5 years ago it was 30,000B/year and 15hrs/week. Both are probably more now.