China - "L" tourist versus "F" business visa

Some colleagues of mine applied for business visitor visas to China a couple months ago (full rigmarole of invitation letters, etc...), but were issued with multiple entry "L" (tourist) visas instead for reasons best known to the Chinese Embassy. We didn't even notice this actually at the time of issuance, but rather just looked at the validity dates!

They have traveled to China multiple times on these visas already, but on their last trip a hotel desk clerk in Xi'an warned them that they should get "F" visas instead for subsequent trips. I'm not overly concerned (I have a multiple entry "L" visa that I also use for business trips without any hassles), but one of them is a bit worried. In many trips to China, I've never once been asked about the purpose of my trip, let alone matching it to the type of visa.

Any experience about whether this is acceptable? They are due to fly out this Friday for meetings in Xi'an on Monday, so we need to decide ASAP whether to postpone everything and go for new visas.

I had a similar situation but for different reasons in 2008. At the time it was almost impossible to get business visas in the run up to the Olympics. The UK consulate in Manchester, UK advised that I should apply for a tourist visa instead with the proviso that "should any problem with being on a business trip with a tourist visa transpire then that was my problem not theirs"

Of course there was never any problem (just as you have found). However, the one piece of advice I would give is to tick the "tourist" box on your China immigration entry card rather than "business". I could imagine that may cause problems otherwise

Once in China I cannot imagine any problems. Suggest your colleague calms down

nickyboy

Indeed, I have spoken to the Head of Visa Section at our local Embassy (who I know casually) and he advises the same as you do - nobody cares what kind of visa you use, but don't quote him if the $h1t hits the fan.

They are doing a 2-day seminar on this trip and now one bright spark has come up with the idea that they might need a "Z" student visa as well. The response from our Chinese hosts is a study in politely telling someone to p1$$ off in a foreign language -- "kindly advice you to consult again". :D

Indeed, I have spoken to the Head of Visa Section at our local Embassy (who I know casually) and he advises the same as you do - nobody cares what kind of visa you use, but don't quote him if the $h1t hits the fan.

They are doing a 2-day seminar on this trip and now one bright spark has come up with the idea that they might need a "Z" student visa as well. The response from our Chinese hosts is a study in politely telling someone to p1$$ off in a foreign language -- "kindly advice you to consult again". :D

All of your L visas are fine for what you'll be doing. Don't take visa advice from hotel desk clerks in Xi'an.

Z visa are working visas, not student visas. X visas are student visas. They are for completely different purposes than what you and colleagues will be doing. I'm sure your Chinese hosts had a Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? moment and then a good laugh at this one.

Your colleagues need to take chill pills. ETA: but on the inbound arrival card, for Purpose of Visit check the "Tourism" box.

New twist in the tale. Part of their visit involves the need for temporary ramp passes to Xi'an airport to inspect aircraft.

This email was received from our Chinese partners this morning.

"We have get confirmation from Xi’An airport Police station that you should get the “F” type visa. Please make sure that you have get the correct visa before you come to Xi’An."

So it looks like they will need to apply for single entry "F" visas before they travel. Probably going to push the trip back till after the Chinese New Year holidays now.

New twist in the tale. Part of their visit involves the need for temporary ramp passes to Xi'an airport to inspect aircraft.

This email was received from our Chinese partners this morning.

"We have get confirmation from Xi’An airport Police station that you should get the “F” type visa. Please make sure that you have get the correct visa before you come to Xi’An."

So it looks like they will need to apply for single entry "F" visas before they travel. Probably going to push the trip back till after the Chinese New Year holidays now.

Or they could get F visas in country. I would at least throw this option back at your Chinese partner. If F was so important, he should have known about it and issued invitation documents. I'd also be willing to bet that there was at least one person in the Xi'an Airport Police Station who would happily welcome L guests.

ETA: but on the inbound arrival card, for Purpose of Visit check the "Tourism" box.

I believe the inbound arrival card has an ever ambiguous "visit" box you can check. At least that's what I always do.

I'd also be willing to bet that there was at least one person in the Xi'an Airport Police Station who would happily welcome L guests.

L + y = F :p

If F was so important, he should have known about it and issued invitation documents. I'd also be willing to bet that there was at least one person in the Xi'an Airport Police Station who would happily welcome L guests.

I've personally had temporary IDs for Xi'an airport issued on the strength of "L" visas without any issues in the past, so it definitely can be done. However, it appears there is some new bureaucrat who is bent on a new interpretation of the rules in Xi'an - evidently another of our partner's visitors who went for a simple 2 week extension of stay had an issue there recently.

We had a conference call with our partners this morning and I also spoke with the Head of Visa Section at the Embassy again. While everyone agrees that this seems to be a bit of a tempest in a teacup situation, the conventional wisdom seems to be to just get the "F" visa done and travel in February instead. For regular travel, no issue, but because of the airport pass issue we will comply with what the Airport Police have advised our hosts in writing.

I've personally had temporary IDs for Xi'an airport issued on the strength of "L" visas without any issues in the past, so it definitely can be done. However, it appears there is some new bureaucrat who is bent on a new interpretation of the rules in Xi'an - evidently another of our partner's visitors who went for a simple 2 week extension of stay had an issue there recently.

We had a conference call with our partners this morning and I also spoke with the Head of Visa Section at the Embassy again. While everyone agrees that this seems to be a bit of a tempest in a teacup situation, the conventional wisdom seems to be to just get the "F" visa done and travel in February instead. For regular travel, no issue, but because of the airport pass issue we will comply with what the Airport Police have advised our hosts in writing.

Sounds like you/colleagues are getting whipsawed by a little local pissing contest between bureaucrat and your Chinese partner. In this situation, postponing the trip and getting the F's is the better part of valor. Just keep track and try to recoup the extra visa cost from the partner in some way (direct or indirect). Visas for US passport holders come at significant cost. Whatever previous method that was used that screwed up and issued L's instead of F's despite invitation letters--needs to be re-examined before automatically using again. When the passports come back, if the visas aren't F's, demand that they be changed asap at no additional cost. Frankly, you may just want to use a reliable agent so they're the ones on the hook to fix, if there's another screw-up.

For other thread readers that aren't in this somewhat unusual situation (access to a security area required for business purposes), the takeaway should be: if you are doing sporadic, normal business things such as meetings, negotiations, conference attendance, etc. and are doing it on an L instead of an F, there should be no problems.

Other than folks like moondog who have been fortunate to score 2 yr F visa's, I still don't know why people prefer the extra hassle to get F vs L...

Other than folks like moondog who have been fortunate to score 2 yr F visa's, I still don't know why people prefer the extra hassle to get F vs L...

Extra effort needed for F visa = almost nothing, just an invitation letter

Disruption to business in event of 1% chance of a problem with an L visa = massive

nickyboy

Extra effort needed for F visa = almost nothing, just an invitation letter

Disruption to business in event of 1% chance of a problem with an L visa = massive

nickyboy

Fully agree. To obtain F visa simply needs company standard type invitation letter with a chop on it.

That said, I have witnessed myself few cases where Chinese consulate have recommended L visa for business travelers who haven't had all the necessary papers (=invitation letter) for F visa. "oh you don't have the invitation letter but you should fly for business trip to China tomorrow? Ok, maybe you can apply for tourist visa". Chinese are rather relaxed with the rules and regulations :)

Anyway, my recommendation is getting the right visas too. I don't know what is the worst scenario if you get caught doing business with a tourist visa, but assume it might be quite bad. Risk is of course very low, but still. Anyone has any information/experience what could be the consequences?

Fully agree. To obtain F visa simply needs company standard type invitation letter with a chop on it.

That said, I have witnessed myself few cases where Chinese consulate have recommended L visa for business travelers who haven't had all the necessary papers (=invitation letter) for F visa. "oh you don't have the invitation letter but you should fly for business trip to China tomorrow? Ok, maybe you can apply for tourist visa". Chinese are rather relaxed with the rules and regulations :)

Anyway, my recommendation is getting the right visas too. I don't know what is the worst scenario if you get caught doing business with a tourist visa, but assume it might be quite bad. Risk is of course very low, but still. Anyone has any information/experience what could be the consequences?

In many years of being here, I've never heard of anybody having any consequences of doing a bit of visitor's business on an L instead of an F. I don't think the Chinese consider this a "catch" to make. Now working in China in a regular job, on an L visa, if caught, can have consequences.

One advantage of an L over an F visa is that if an in-country extension is needed, the L can be a DIY visit to the local Public Security Bureau office for another 30 days--and it can be anywhere in China. An F visa extension requires permission/involvement of the original inviter and usually in the PSB with jurisdiction in inviter's location.

Also, remember that not all FT readers are from the US (or a few other favored countries) where the standard to get an F is merely one extra piece of paper: a simple invitation letter from a Chinese business or on one's own company letterhead. For many other nationalities, they also have to have an additional letter from an authorized Chinese government Ministry, and this item can be a booger to obtain.

For many other nationalities, they also have to have an additional letter from an authorized Chinese government Ministry, and this item can be a booger to obtain.

You can purchase on Alibaba:p

MOQ only One Unit (http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/482878764/Invitation_letter.html)
invitation & visa
1) making invitations for the foreigner come in China
2) visa guaranteed.
3) high-speed

You can purchase on Alibaba:p

MOQ only One Unit (http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/482878764/Invitation_letter.html)
invitation & visa
1) making invitations for the foreigner come in China
2) visa guaranteed.
3) high-speed

Correction: "...can be a booger to legitimately obtain."

For many other nationalities, they also have to have an additional letter from an authorized Chinese government Ministry, and this item can be a booger to obtain.

Our local Embassy requires this, plus notarised copies of our company registration documents, bank statements and tax filings. Additionally, for multiple entry "F" visas they require a 5-year criminal history check and a medical test conducted within the last 3 months.

Irony is that we did submit all these documents, but we were still issued "L" visas rather than "F" visas at the time.

Our local Embassy requires this, plus notarised copies of our company registration documents, bank statements and tax filings. Additionally, for multiple entry "F" visas they require a 5-year criminal history check and a medical test conducted within the last 3 months.

Irony is that we did submit all these documents, but we were still issued "L" visas rather than "F" visas at the time.

What Embassy was this? Did you have someone traveling, or from the company, go directly to file the applications OR did you use a visa agent?

What Embassy was this? Did you have someone traveling, or from the company, go directly to file the applications OR did you use a visa agent?

Accra, Ghana

The Embassy requires that all travelers apply in person (no agents permitted anymore) so I was in line at 4am myself. They only accept ~30 people daily (no more than 6 applications per person), and I was only #13 despite the early hour. At peak travel season around the Guangzhou fairs, people have to camp out in line for 3-5 days to just get in the door. There is a bit of a cottage industry in selling spots near the front of the line too - the day I was there, #3 in line changed hands for $150 cash!!!

As mentioned earlier, I know some folks in the visa section casually and they say that almost 2/3 of applications filed are fraudulent in some way, so I can't really blame them for being overly strict. They have almost 40,000 applications/year and issue around 15,000 visas. Of that, our company and related entities probably had around 120 visa applications in 2011 so they know us well by now.

The consular/visa section is moving to new (larger) premises away from the Embassy mid-2012 which will help streamline the process we hope. Ghana/China traffic has grown from 5800 pax/year in 2005 to 38000 pax/year in 2010 and a forecast of over 55000 pax/year in 2012, so the infrastructure needs to keep up! We have someone going to the Embassy at least once weekly for visas, notarisations, etc... and the current logistics that waste almost an entire day are sub-optimal to say the least.

I had a feeling with all those requirements, you were in Africa somewhere. Are your passports issued by Ghana or are your citizenships elsewhere?

It would not surprise me a bit if you went through this entire thing again with that Embassy, and got issued L visas again. How are you going to manage this risk?

Also, remember that not all FT readers are from the US (or a few other favored countries) where the standard to get an F is merely one extra piece of paper: a simple invitation letter from a Chinese business or on one's own company letterhead. For many other nationalities, they also have to have an additional letter from an authorized Chinese government Ministry, and this item can be a booger to obtain.

AFAIK, within the European Union, you have to get the Ministry invitation as well if no previous multiple F visas in the same or previous physical passport .

So, FT'ers with EU member citizenship, keep your previous and subsequently invalitated passports when renewning them. The microchip required by authorities to be handed in can by pryed loose from the passport itself.

I guess I'm too lazy to get a letter and make sure the consulate likes it, besides I do more touring in China that "work". :D

Are your passports issued by Ghana or are your citizenships elsewhere?

Mix of citizenships - Ghana mainly, but also India, USA, Canada, UK.

It would not surprise me a bit if you went through this entire thing again with that Embassy, and got issued L visas again. How are you going to manage this risk?

I spoke to the Head of Visa section yesterday and he has given me the phone number for a particular visa officer who works at the front desk. I am supposed to call him the morning we go to submit the new applications and he will meet us and ensure that the applications are annotated for "F" visas.

Mix of citizenships - Ghana mainly, but also India, USA, Canada, UK.



I spoke to the Head of Visa section yesterday and he has given me the phone number for a particular visa officer who works at the front desk. I am supposed to call him the morning we go to submit the new applications and he will meet us and ensure that the applications are annotated for "F" visas.

That is wise, as the alternatives would be even more ponderous to invoke with that citizenship mix.

A further update to this.

The issue appears to be with Xi'an specifically. They have a new policy that they will not issue any “Visa Notice Form of Duly Authorised Unit” (被授权单位邀请函) to citizens of African countries due to some recent issues with fake documents there. This anti-African sentiment seems to have trickled down to the airport police as well - a colleague with an Indian passport got issued the same airport pass on an "L" visa recently that the Ghanaians were refused.

We have moved the work they were traveling for to Tianjin instead of Xi'an where the local police, airport and everyone else are far more friendly and cooperative. Heading off there tonight.

A further update to this.

The issue appears to be with Xi'an specifically. They have a new policy that they will not issue any “Visa Notice Form of Duly Authorised Unit” (被授权单位邀请函) to citizens of African countries due to some recent issues with fake documents there. This anti-African sentiment seems to have trickled down to the airport police as well - a colleague with an Indian passport got issued the same airport pass on an "L" visa recently that the Ghanaians were refused.

We have moved the work they were traveling for to Tianjin instead of Xi'an where the local police, airport and everyone else are far more friendly and cooperative. Heading off there tonight.

Wise decision to deal with the immediate situation. I am sure though, that Xi'an is not the only location that you may run into, that has anti-African sentiment present to the point of interfering with issuance of business visas. One can't entirely blame the Chinese. It's unfortunate to say this, but Africans have been their own worst enemy with the fakery and other shenanigans attempted too many times--the Chinese don't find it funny in the slightest. And Chinese are already predisposed, for other cultural/social reasons, to have bias against Africans. For legitimate business people, these visa obstacles are of course an extra unwanted aggravation.

For the future, you might consider having those with other citizenships apply for longer-term multiple-entry Chinese business visas in their own countries. For instance, the US citizen(s) could easily get a 12-month multiple entry. Some of the other non-Africans might not get that deal, but should get something better and with less hassle. This would at least narrow the future visa problem down to the Ghana passport holders, and ensure that SOMEBODY would be able to have access to visit China on short notice as necessary. The foreigners stationed in Ghana, who are not planning physical travel back to their home countries, can have their passports intn'l FedExd or DHL'd back to a visa agent in their own countries, who can process and send back. Another strategy would have been to batch the foreigners' passports separately for visa applications, then the Ghanaians in a separate submission, hopefully isolated the problem, as it were.

I'm a US citizen who just today received a 1 year, multiple entry, F visa for an upcoming business trip and hopefully one or more additional business visits this year.

Is it safe to assume that I should have no problem using this visa for a separate trip, strictly as a tourist, during its validity?

I'm a US citizen who just today received a 1 year, multiple entry, F visa for an upcoming business trip and hopefully one or more additional business visits this year.

Is it safe to assume that I should have no problem using this visa for a separate trip, strictly as a tourist, during its validity?

Of course!

For the future, you might consider having those with other citizenships apply for longer-term multiple-entry Chinese business visas in their own countries.

The "F" visa is really not the issue anymore since the Xi'an folks seem perfectly happy to issue airport passes to non-Africans on "L" visas. Ironically, a Ghanaian-American US citizen was denied an airport pass while the Indian was approved the same week. This leads me to believe it isn't a citizenship issue as much as an ethnic issue.

I've never had the slightest problem traveling with Africans throughout most of the coastal provinces. The interior seems to be a different story though. Our partners have a presence pretty much throughout the country, so we'll stick to where we're comfortable from now on out. We've already decided to move some pretty big business from Xi'an to Tianjin and Nanning and I'm pretty sure our partners will make sure the right ears in Shaanxi province hear about that and reforms will slowly trickle down.

My son has a 2 year 90 day multiple entry L visa.

Can he take short summer courses in China?

Or does he really need a student visa?

My son has a 2 year 90 day multiple entry L visa.

Can he take short summer courses in China?

Or does he really need a student visa?

No problem.

My son has a 2 year 90 day multiple entry L visa.

Can he take short summer courses in China?

Or does he really need a student visa?

Student visa's (X) are for study for more than 6 months. A short course will not be a problem, UNLESS it's at the ISB school. ISB is a stickler on the visa type for any student, any course.