TalkBoard Topics - Air Berlin forum

Hereby suggesting a forum for Air Berlin.

2nd biggest airline in Europes biggest market. 6th biggest in Europe.

About to join Oneworld. Interest will skyrocket, and I suggest FT stay ahead of development.

Good Idea!

Good Idea!

Agreed -- I was actually looking for an Airberlin forum earlier this week to see if there was any news about when AB would join Oneworld... I'm just waiting for that to happen before I purchase a few tickets with them.

What's the demand on FT like? Are there dozens of threads on European Airlines forum realting to Air Berlin to warrant the creation of a dedicated forum? If the answer is yes then I'd say it was time. If not, maybe the time hasn't come yet.

Can somebody explain to me why opening a form for a large airline is a "federal case"?

What's the demand on FT like? Are there dozens of threads on European Airlines forum realting to Air Berlin to warrant the creation of a dedicated forum? If the answer is yes then I'd say it was time. If not, maybe the time hasn't come yet.

About to join Oneworld. Interest will skyrocket, and I suggest FT stay ahead of development.

The key is bolded.

Current discussion does not warrant its own forum. Not strange as its a LCC, contrary to other airlines suggested for own forum- who regularly have FFPs and even are members of alliances.

But the proposal, suggests than FT for once tries to stay ahead of the development- as full OW membership for this quite huge airline is immediate. FTers can better position awards, strategies, status etc. This will guranteed be the second biggest OW forum in Europe after BA.

Except for the argument of current low FT traffic, I cant see any predictions why Air Berlin forum wont quite soon be in high demand.

Being a board is about planning ahead, not only fixing problems. Especially when not only seeing them come, but also due warned:D

AirBerlin forum is certainly something to consider. And as noted by the recent approval of Aegean, FT has stayed ahead of the development. ;)

But also as noted in the Aegean forum, the OP of that one did a bit of homework to get the ball rolling, along the lines of forum creation criteria. You could potentially do the same, as it helps TB to evaluate/determine forum creation.

The following are qualitative criteria that the TalkBoard believes are useful to consider when evaluating proposals to create, close, split, or move forums. Whenever a forum change is discussed on the TalkBoard Topics, the TalkBoard encourages posters to fully address these criteria in addition to any other reasons supporting or opposing the change.

1. Will the forum be (or is it now) beneficial to FlyerTalk?

2. Will the new forum benefit a relationship with FlyerTalk? E.g., does the forum provide value for FT members, such as a friendly ear highly placed in the company

3. Is FT the best place to discuss this subject?

4. Is there a passionate following? This is essential in order to provide dedicated expert helpers to get questions answered.

5. Is a critical mass of posts and readers anticipated or existing? We need adequate traffic to keep everyone visiting frequently. One living forum is more valuable than two mostly dead ones.

6. Is this the best place on FlyerTalk for this subject? This is the classification issue. The answer depends primarily on achieving and maintaining critical mass. It also depends on whether or where the discussion might (or does) occur in the absence of the forum.

7. For proposals to split a forum, is the split expected to improve the signal to noise ratio? Why?

Cheers.

AirBerlin forum is certainly something to consider. And as noted by the recent approval of Aegean, FT has stayed ahead of the development. ;)

But also as noted in the Aegean forum, the OP of that one did a bit of homework to get the ball rolling, along the lines of forum creation criteria. You could potentially do the same, as it helps TB to evaluate/determine forum creation.

The following are qualitative criteria that the TalkBoard believes are useful to consider when evaluating proposals to create, close, split, or move forums. Whenever a forum change is discussed on the TalkBoard Topics, the TalkBoard encourages posters to fully address these criteria in addition to any other reasons supporting or opposing the change.

1. Will the forum be (or is it now) beneficial to FlyerTalk?

2. Will the new forum benefit a relationship with FlyerTalk? E.g., does the forum provide value for FT members, such as a friendly ear highly placed in the company

3. Is FT the best place to discuss this subject?

4. Is there a passionate following? This is essential in order to provide dedicated expert helpers to get questions answered.

5. Is a critical mass of posts and readers anticipated or existing? We need adequate traffic to keep everyone visiting frequently. One living forum is more valuable than two mostly dead ones.

6. Is this the best place on FlyerTalk for this subject? This is the classification issue. The answer depends primarily on achieving and maintaining critical mass. It also depends on whether or where the discussion might (or does) occur in the absence of the forum.

7. For proposals to split a forum, is the split expected to improve the signal to noise ratio? Why?

Cheers.

Sharon, perhaps you personally encourage posters to address those criteria, but I don't. So you're only speaking for part of the TB.

I think that's our job to answer those questions if we want to. Quite frankly, I'm inclined to vote for any serious proposal for a new forum. Seattle? Why not -- I lived there and there are a high percentage of FTers who live there who want the forum. This one seems like a great idea, too.

So I'll formally make the proposals (if nobody else does) at the appropriate time.

Just as a point of reference: AB tobonus has its own section in VFT.de since nearly three years and so far only got 143 Threads compared to 2200+ for M&M:

http://www.vielfliegertreff.de/topbonus/

And this is in the captive market / native language forum. If you start splitting off AB topbonus from the OEFFP forum, a similar case could be made for TAP victoria and others... as it stands little A3 (87) and EY Guest (480+) are the smallest sections of FFPs in FT, the rest all have more than 1000 threads.

If everyone gets a forum you will end up with a ton of tumbleweed sections on FT...

Sharon, perhaps you personally encourage posters to address those criteria, but I don't. So you're only speaking for part of the TB.

I think that's our job to answer those questions if we want to. Quite frankly, I'm inclined to vote for any serious proposal for a new forum. Seattle? Why not -- I lived there and there are a high percentage of FTers who live there who want the forum. This one seems like a great idea, too.

So I'll formally make the proposals (if nobody else does) at the appropriat
time.

The forum creation criteria was created by TB for a reason.

It certainly helps TB members to evaluate whether it makes sense to create a forum, and isn't an undue hardship on a person proposing a forum to answer the questions. I'm perplexed why some would think it is, and more perplexed that someone who believes in a forum enough to want it created wouldn't do so.

That doesn't mean TB members won't do their own homework, btw, when it's in full discussion mode. Well I can't speak for other TB members, but I know I do & also know quite a few of the others do.

And as you know Rich, I already raised this for discussion in the private board.

However, that doesn't negate my feeling that folk who propose forums do a wee bit of homework themselves when putting forth such a suggestion.

FWIW - I think travelkid did some of it already, but it doesn't hurt to have it fully fleshed out - and it's not unique to travelkid/I'm not singling him/her out. I posted the forum creation criteria in the Seattle forum suggestion as well.

Cheers.

as it stands little A3 (87) and EY Guest (480+) are the smallest sections of FFPs in FT, the rest all have more than 1000 threads.

If everyone gets a forum you will end up with a ton of tumbleweed sections on FT...

In fairness to A3 & EY, they were just created in the last 60 days so it's not fair to compare them threadwise with other forums that have been around much longer & have a larger base.

But your tumbleweed comment is potentially valid re: some forums, perhaps even the suggested AZ one. Sorry; couldn't resist ;) :p :D

Chees.

The forum creation criteria was created by TB for a reason.

That's nice.

For those who have proposed forums, there will be votes on them reasonably soon. There's a required waiting period and, of course, someone else would have to second my proposals.

Personally, I don't want to waste the TB's time in debating new forums and would rather we spend our time doing something else, so I figure the best way is to get these to a vote as quickly as possible.

That's nice.

For those who have proposed forums, there will be votes on them reasonably soon. There's a required waiting period and, of course, someone else would have to second my proposals.

Personally, I don't want to waste the TB's time in debating new forums and would rather we spend our time doing something else, so I figure the best way is to get these to a vote as quickly as possible.

What is the 'we spend our time doing something else' you wish us to work on? Some of us TB members are actually capable of multi-tasking. ;)

I don't think we need to wait months on end, but I don't have a problem with forum creation threads in the public forum (and private) being allowed to be discussed for pros/cons by FTers (whose input pro/con we're supposed to consider) for a few days or a week or more before doing sudden rushes to motions.

Sometimes the support is there & it makes sense for one to get created & it doesn't take more than a week; sometimes the support isn't there even by FTers, in which case rushing to motion & then have something not pass just because someone wants to act quickly or give the illusion of acting quickly doesn't make sense.

Cheers.

What is the 'we spend our time doing something else' you wish us to work on? Some of us TB members are actually capable of multi-tasking. ;)

I don't think we need to wait months on end, but I don't have a problem with forum creation threads in the public forum (and private) being allowed to be discussed for pros/cons by FTers (whose input pro/con we're supposed to consider) for a few days or a week or more before doing sudden rushes to motions.

Sometimes the support is there & it makes sense for one to get created & it doesn't take more than a week; sometimes the support isn't there even by FTers, in which case rushing to motion & then have something not pass just because someone wants to act quickly or give the illusion of acting quickly doesn't make sense.

Cheers.

Sharon, why? There's a 2-week voting period. The motion itself is easy: "The Talkboard recommends creation of X forum."

We ask for public comments during the voting period. If the case isn't made in your mind in 2 weeks, vote it down. If it is, vote it up. But we don't need to wait a week and then have a two week voting period on top of that.

Just my opinion. If someone shares it (someone who will second the motions), the motions will be made quickly and the clock will tick.

If everyone gets a forum you will end up with a ton of tumbleweed sections on FT...

+1

I've also been of the opinion that 'more' is not always the best answer to forum creation and I don't think asking whether a suggested forum will actually get used is too high a bar to set.

Can somebody explain to me why opening a form for a large airline is a "federal case"?+1

When a general FT member such as myself sees that a carrier has grown to the point that it is about to join oneWorld, and that is adding major routes in areas that will likely significantly impact both TATL and intra-European markets (hubbing at a majr new airport, to boot), it is easy for some of us to become non-plussed that the addition of such a carrier cannot be accomplished by acclimation.

I'm all for due process, but many of the TB/IBB policies seem to be there for the interest and amusement of a small coterie, who sometimes seem to lose sight of that the raision d'etre of FT is to bring together the disparate needs of frequent travelers in a meaningful way. If the TB wishes to ponder why many general members don't get more involved in the working of the board, well, .......

Thanks to you RichMSN for your efforts - it's nice to see that a TB candidate meant what he/she professed during the TB election cycle ^

AirBerlin forum is certainly something to consider. And as noted by the recent approval of Aegean, FT has stayed ahead of the development. ;)


^ to TB moving in the right direction. Time for more strategic thinking@:-)

But also as noted in the Aegean forum, the OP of that one did a bit of homework to get the ball rolling, along the lines of forum creation criteria. You could potentially do the same, as it helps TB to evaluate/determine forum creation.

My bolding, and I will throw a few more dice. Otherwise Im also of the opinion, that when one volunteer to a board, it should be due to dedication, and then chance of having enough time to fully do the job. TB would have far easier access to statistics etc as well.

But Im not denying the community having a collective responsibility. The hope is to get the ball rolling and have others chip in. A good proposal is not less good because the OP doesnt have the time/skills to singlehandedly be responsible of presenting a fullly set proposal with all its pros (and cons).

1. Will the forum be (or is it now) beneficial to FlyerTalk?

This is the key question, and if this is a solid yes, then no big deal with the others. The core value in FT is FFPs, and especially the major ones. AB is currently a LCC, but they do have a FFP.

However not a typical LCC. In April 2010 Air Berlin expanded its codeshare arrangements with Russia’s S7 Airlines (also OW). In preparation for joining the alliance, Air Berlin has been offering flights under codeshare agreements with American Airlines and Finnair since its 2010/2011 winter schedule. On 15 June 2011, Air Berlin and British Airways reached a codeshare agreement.

Air Berlin is Germany's second largest airline, after Lufthansa, and Europe's sixth largest airline in terms of passengers.

The airline operates an extensive network including North Africa as well as long-haul intercontinental destinations in Southeast Asia, the Caribbean and the Americas.

Air Berlin concentrates on serving major German and European cities to attract business traffic. A total of 23 German cities are served, more than any other airline. Its largest hub is Berlin-Tegel Airport, followed by Düsseldorf Airport.
On 26 July 2010, the Oneworld airline alliance announced that Air Berlin had been invited to join. Full membership is planned for the start of 2012.

This all underlines the growth and size of AB, as well as the integration in OW, soon to take full effect. It should be absolutely clear that AB will get a forum one day. Question is does FT want to stay ahead of the immediate development, or should it be discussed around multiple forums, annoying users until enough simply is enough?

Adedicated forum will clearly be benefitial to FT.

2. Will the new forum benefit a relationship with FlyerTalk? E.g., does the forum provide value for FT members, such as a friendly ear highly placed in the company

I really dont get the question- beyond question 1. But as stated yes, the forum will provide value for FT members. Whether they will provide a lurker is impossible for me to say, and also fairly irrelevant IMO.

3. Is FT the best place to discuss this subject?

No, currently its probably far better to discuss it on other sites like MP, and especially in the future when interest increase- if FT wont dedicate a forum. If FT approves a forum, FT is most certainly the best place to discuss AB and its FFP, being the bigges miles&points site out there. Other than that I dont see the relevance in this question either.

4. Is there a passionate following? This is essential in order to provide dedicated expert helpers to get questions answered.

Not at all. This is however what must eventually come with such a coming major carrier.

5. Is a critical mass of posts and readers anticipated or existing? We need adequate traffic to keep everyone visiting frequently. One living forum is more valuable than two mostly dead ones.

This is more or less the same question as 4.

6. Is this the best place on FlyerTalk for this subject? This is the classification issue. The answer depends primarily on achieving and maintaining critical mass. It also depends on whether or where the discussion might (or does) occur in the absence of the forum.

Currently as a european LCC its best fit where it is, but with the OW move, and any sane anticipation its better suited with a dedicated forum.

7. For proposals to split a forum, is the split expected to improve the signal to noise ratio? Why?

Dont really get this either. Any dedicated forum will of course decrease scattered noise, and also clean up the forum its separated from.

Just as a point of reference: AB tobonus has its own section in VFT.de since nearly three years and so far only got 143 Threads compared to 2200+ for M&M:

http://www.vielfliegertreff.de/topbonus/

And this is in the captive market / native language forum. If you start splitting off AB topbonus from the OEFFP forum, a similar case could be made for TAP victoria and others... as it stands little A3 (87) and EY Guest (480+) are the smallest sections of FFPs in FT, the rest all have more than 1000 threads.

In fairness to A3 & EY, they were just created in the last 60 days so it's not fair to compare them threadwise with other forums that have been around much longer & have a larger base.

A3 and EY numbers well explained.

I have also explained why AB traffic is low at present, probably at other sites VFT as well.

I've also been of the opinion that 'more' is not always the best answer to forum creation and I don't think asking whether a suggested forum will actually get used is too high a bar to set.

Agreed. In this case however I think the bar is passed.

... it is easy for some of us to become non-plussed that the addition of such a carrier cannot be accomplished by acclimation.

My bolding, but its the best comment so far. And we have seen this before. In lack of TB initiative/acclamation CD has proposed/opened new forums. Why wait when the need will clearly rapidly increase.

Berlin is probably the main city in the world not reflected in FTs airline forums as a hub.

First, in addition to my post from yesterday, I want to support the idea of an AB forum. Second, I don't think that the description "low cost carrier" matches Air Berlin in any way. A decade ago this fact may have been different.
Today, every LCC attribute I can imagine doesn't fit AB anymore. Especially the prices.


I have also explained why AB traffic is low at present, probably at other sites VFT as well.


Being a regular reader at VFT, it is IMO quite obvious that AB (at the current state) is not as interesting for business travelers from Germany as LH is. And the vast majority of VFT user are the classic business traveler. I am sure this state will change after OW is in the game. This fact will have influence on a potential forum here and at VFT.


Berlin is probably the main city in the world not reflected in FTs airline forums as a hub.

Maybe. But to be honest, Berlin didn't play a major role in European Aviation. This has mostly historical reasons (until 1990 it was a very special deal to fly into the divided city) and in recent times there are structural issues. I am optimistic that the future will show us an increase in Berlin related aviation and maybe the OW will make BER more visible to us.

S.

travelkid, thanks for answering the questions. For those TB members who are not familiar w/ AirBerlin (or didn't know that it was joining OneWorld), information like that helps, & is much better than a simple can we have a XYZ forum.

BTW - I say that with regards to this forum request, but it's also true whenever TB is considering a proposed forum. The more information provided the better. It gives us a start point, and also points us in other directions to look when doing our homework.

It also helps other FTers who will provide their input on the subject, which is also something we consider.

Cheers.

travelkid, thanks for answering the questions. For those TB members who are not familiar w/ AirBerlin (or didn't know that it was joining OneWorld), information like that helps, & is much better than a simple can we have a XYZ forum.

BTW - I say that with regards to this forum request, but it's also true whenever TB is considering a proposed forum. The more information provided the better. It gives us a start point, and also points us in other directions to look when doing our homework.

It also helps other FTers who will provide their input on the subject, which is also something we consider.

Cheers.

You are welcome, and it took me surprisingly little time to compile. Mostly wikipedia actually (=not cut in stone, but fairly reliable).

What would have taken longer would maybe collecting FT stats. Especially as there are no formats to this, and the search functions in this aspect is pretty unreliable. And of course the well covered aspect that the stats wouldnt be too relevant here.

Thank you for a good break down travelkid ^ and another step up in my "education of other airlines" as now I have a lot of food for thought on this as my initial reaction was to vote against the proposal

It would be helpful to me if there was a dedicated forum for AB. Purely due to one of its US destinations being in a location I am frequently at, I have flown with them (and Niki) a lot in the past year, done a lot of research, and have racked up a lot of topbonus miles.

I know a bit about the airline, its policies and benefits but there is definitely more I could learn from others - for example, the burning question for me recently is WHEN will they upgrade their longhaul business class seats? I am guessing when they join up with oneworld, people unfamiliar with them will be in for a shock and there will be lots of questions. I have been able to find very little information about this, and having a dedicated forum would help in finding answers (Flyertalk usually comes up near the top of Google searches for me.)

If there was a dedicated forum, I would be willing to provide input based on my limited experience with their longhaul fleet.

I know a bit about the airline, its policies and benefits but there is definitely more I could learn from others - for example, the burning question for me recently is WHEN will they upgrade their longhaul business class seats?

The started with the installation of new seats (Eco and Business) some weeks ago. At the moment three of the A332 and A333 already have the new seats.

But to be honest, as people told me the new business seats are not really state of the art but better than the old ones.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/5872/abbusinesskl.jpg

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6601/abecokl.jpg


If there was a dedicated forum, I would be willing to provide input based on my limited experience with their longhaul fleet.

Sounds great. My experience with AB is mostly domestic and european (a lot) and few TATL (e.g. DUS-MIA, TXL-MIA).

S.

doing a google search on AB topbonus should absolutely bring potential new members to flyertalk. The topbonus program is quite large by membership already in central europe and this would be a big opportunity to bring more european members to flyertalk.

I would post and read quite a lot in a new AB forum. And as far as I see there are quite some "hidden treasures" in the program which should be discussed at a prominent place in the airlines forums.

I do endorse the idea of an Air Berlin forum. The airline has moved out of "low cost carrier" at this time. One can still get lower priced tickets by planning way ahead, but overall it is not low cost any longer. As AB is now in oneworld, a forum is appropriate.