Finnair Plus - AY points on a OW flight operated by *A metal

Maybe I should know this one, but ...


So the general question is:
If a OW airline have a codeshare on a flight operated by a *A-carrier, will it credit to AY+ as a OW flight or will the miles go into the bin?

And the specifics are:
NZ operates AKL-NRT as NZ99, JL codeshares it as JL5199

I'd assume you'll get the points, it's a bit like HEL-CDG with AF code on AY metal, no problem getting points to your KL/AF account.

Isn't the whole idea of codesharing exactly this or am I missing something?

Well, in the logical sense a ticket with a OW airline code should be considered a OW-flight, but I had the discussion about AY ticketed FC-flights that do not credit to OW accounts fresh in mind.

I also have seen on TK M&S (*A member program) the rule "Miles can be accrued only on <partner name> operating flights." listed under almost every earning table, so in this program they only accept ticketed and operated flights from other *A flights. A SK-ticket on say SQ metal would not earn.

On the other hand, AY will treat any AY-codeshare as a "real" AY flight, so earnings table and elite earning bonus works fine in that case.

Well, I am leaning towards that it will work as a "real" JL flight and earn according to AY's table for JL.



A second question comes to mind; I know the operating airline leaves a qouta of seats to the codeshared airline, but what happens if all seats are not sold? Do the qoutas stay with each airline until the bitter end? Or does the operating airline have final control of all seats?

I am thinking in terms of upgrade opportunities. If you buy the OW ticket and hope for an op-up due to OW status, that would mean squat to the operating airline if all available seats in all quotas are returned to the op airline before takeoff. They are *A and have their elites to tend to.

A second question comes to mind; I know the operating airline leaves a qouta of seats to the codeshared airline, but what happens if all seats are not sold? Do the qoutas stay with each airline until the bitter end? Or does the operating airline have final control of all seats?

I am thinking in terms of upgrade opportunities. If you buy the OW ticket and hope for an op-up due to OW status, that would mean squat to the operating airline if all available seats in all quotas are returned to the op airline before takeoff. They are *A and have their elites to tend to.

Personally I wouldn't hold my breath for an op-up on NZ metal with JL ticket with AY status ;)

Usually codeshare seats are available if there are seats available in the first place so it can be for example AYxxxx = Y2 B0 H0.. + AAzzzz = Y2 B0 H0.. and if one is sold (either by AY or AA) it will change to Y1 for both AA and AY...this is just based on my observations on EF over the years and is by no means anything official..and this can of course vary a lot by airline but at least on some OW routes it's like that (HEL-JFK/LHR, for example)

Personally I wouldn't hold my breath for an op-up on NZ metal with JL ticket with AY status ;)

)

hehe, i am not hoping for it , i am just curious how it would work!

I am thinking in terms of upgrade opportunities. If you buy the OW ticket and hope for an op-up due to OW status, that would mean squat to the operating airline if all available seats in all quotas are returned to the op airline before takeoff. They are *A and have their elites to tend to.

The chances are likely to vary from one airline to another and also according to the agreement between the code-sharing and carrying airline. However, I used to get occasional upgrades when flying with Finnair to CDG with AF ticket and Flying Blue status. Then again I think AF has a solid number of seats (something like 40 AFAIK) to be sold. I'm not sure if they buy a certain number of C and Y seats or just a total number of seats in any class.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the miles either..

In the *A at least the operating carrier is the critical factor... and when that carrier is from a different alliance (or no alliance at all) things get interesting fast..

In the "olden" days I got AY points for LIS-BRU on TP (*A) metal with SN (at the time still AY partner) code. Seemed really weird.

In most FFP programmes, if a flight is operated with a non-FFP partner under an FFP partner code, it will only credit on the code of the native FFP of the marketing carrier.

Thus, an AF-operated, AY-coded flight should credit to Finnair+ but would not credit to BAEC, AAdvantage, etc...

Similarly, a BD-operated BA-coded flight would credit to BAEC but not to Finnair+, AAdvantage, etc...

Sometimes, there are IT cock-ups that can play to the passemger's advantage (i.e. get credit where there should not be) but you cannot rely on this.

Also, some airlines (eg: IB in OW or BD in *A) have even more restrictive rules and exclude any earning on non-partners even if the flight has their own (i.e. IB or BD in this example) code.

OW is much better when it comes to treating flights according to the marketing carrier, which is according to the flight number booked.

*A is different and it doesn't matter at all what flight number you have... with very few exceptions it has to be *A metal in order for you to gain status miles.

In most FFP programmes, if a flight is operated with a non-FFP partner under an FFP partner code, it will only credit on the code of the native FFP of the marketing carrier.

...
This was my initial hunch aswell. As my main programme is OW I was tempted to buy the ticket as JL, but I felt the risk of miles going to the bin was pretty high. The safe bet would have been to buy it as NZ and credit to a secondary *A programme. In the end I didn't go on that flight at all, so I don't have the definite answer to the question.

OW is much better when it comes to treating flights according to the marketing carrier, which is according to the flight number booked.
...

And this is the way it really should work. I mean, if I do business with one party, this is the only business relation I should have to consider. In no other business do I accept that my business partner says "sorry, I decided to use a sub-contracter, so you really can't expect the job to be carried out to my standards".
I think OW is slightly better than *A in this regard, but there has been a mess with FC operated AY flights. And with flybe, AY is now in a even bigger mess. Many flybe operated AY flights don't even earn on AY+. I really hate such startegies.

If a OW airline have a codeshare on a flight operated by a *A-carrier, will it credit to AY+ as a OW flight or will the miles go into the bin?

I believe you will not get AY+ points. If the flight number had been AY, you would get points regardless of the operating carrier.

And if you are a member of JL's programme, you will get JL points/miles for these flights.

I found it now in Terms&conditions, point 3.10. The partner must be both the marketed and the operating airline for points to be earned.


...
If the flight number had been AY, you would get points regardless of the operating carrier.
...
Sadly, that is not completely true. For example, there are several AY marketed flights (sold by AY with AY flight number) operated by flybe that will not earn. (these flights will not even recognise AY+ status, i.e. no lounges, no extra luggage, no priority)

I believe that if it's a AY-flight number codeshared with at OW partner, on OW partners own metal, then it is safe to assume points will be earned to AY+. In all other cases is is best to assume there will be no points.

Sadly, that is not completely true. For example, there are several AY marketed flights (sold by AY with AY flight number) operated by flybe that will not earn. (these flights will not even recognise AY+ status, i.e. no lounges, no extra luggage, no priority)

Really? You mean AY first buys a substantial share in FlyBe Nordic, then outsources some of its flights to this semi-subsidiary and then refuses to give out AY+ points on AY coded flights operated by this semi-subsidiary? This is completely ridiculous behaviour. Should be changed instantly.

Which flights are affected?

Really? You mean AY first buys a substantial share in FlyBe Nordic, then outsources some of its flights to this semi-subsidiary and then refuses to give out AY+ points on AY coded flights operated by this semi-subsidiary? This is completely ridiculous behaviour. Should be changed instantly.

Which flights are affected?

Yes, it is crazy. Putting AY code on flights that will not recognize AY+customers... Why???

Flights with AY8xxx are affected.They seem to be several domestic flights, and between finland and sweden, estonia.

Helsinki and Jyväskylä, Kajaani, Kemi, Kittilä, Kokkola/Pietarsaari, Kuusamo, Maariehamn, Pori, Savonlinna, Seinäjoki and Varkaus. International code-share routes include flights between Helsinki and Gdansk, Norrköping, Skellefteå (via Kokkola), Tartu, Trondheim, Stockholm Bromma airport and Umeå, as well as the routes Oulu–Tallinn, Seinäjoki–Kittilä, Tallinn–Stockholm (Bromma), Tampere–Kittilä, Tampere–Kuusamo, Tampere–Tallinn, Turku–Kittilä, Turku–Tallinn, Vaasa–Tallinn.

Yes, it is crazy. Putting AY code on flights that will not recognize AY+customers... Why???

Flights with AY8xxx are affected.They seem to be several domestic flights, and between finland and sweden, estonia.

I didn't check in detail but aren't most of these flights such that there is no competition on the route, at least no other direct flights?

So AY just think that people who need/want to fly these routes will do it regardless of any FF perks.

To me this tells all about AY's attitude, nothing more to say, really..

Sorry to ruin good AY bashing but:
"Earn points:

You can earn Finnair Plus points on Flybe operated flights. If your flight number is between AY8100–AY8700 you earn Finnair Plus points accordingly:

You will earn 1,000 points per direction when you fly in booking class Y.
You will earn 500 points per direction when you fly in booking classes A,B,H,K,L,M,Q,R,S,T,V,W,Z.

If your flight is BE operated and marketed flight (BE code on the ticket) you earn Finnair Plus points accordingly:

You will earn 1,000 points per direction when you fly in Flybe Economy Plus Class (booking classes W and R).
You will earn 500 points per direction when you fly in Flybe Economy Class (booking classes Y, T, S, V, K, H, L, Q, X, A, B, U, M, Z and I).

If your flight number is between AY3722–AY3999 (also operated by Flybe) you earn Finnair Plus points according to the normal Finnair Plus table found here.


Tier points and tier benefits:

For flight numbers AY3722-AY3999, you will earn tier points in addition to your award points. For flights AY8100–AY8700 Finnair Plus member is not able to earn tier points, only award points. Also for BE coded flights, you can earn only Finnair Plus award points, not tier points.


Normal tier benefits are available for Finnair tier members on flight numbers AY3722-3999 and AY8100–AY8700. For flights with BE flight designator on the ticket tier benefits are not available."

http://pluspartners.finnair.com/Eng/earn%20plus%20points/Air/Flybe/Default.aspx

Sorry to ruin good AY bashing but:
"Earn points:

You can earn Finnair Plus points on Flybe operated flights. If your flight number is between AY8100–AY8700 you earn Finnair Plus points accordingly:

You will earn 1,000 points per direction when you fly in booking class Y.
You will earn 500 points per direction when you fly in booking classes A,B,H,K,L,M,Q,R,S,T,V,W,Z.

If your flight is BE operated and marketed flight (BE code on the ticket) you earn Finnair Plus points accordingly:

You will earn 1,000 points per direction when you fly in Flybe Economy Plus Class (booking classes W and R).
You will earn 500 points per direction when you fly in Flybe Economy Class (booking classes Y, T, S, V, K, H, L, Q, X, A, B, U, M, Z and I).

If your flight number is between AY3722–AY3999 (also operated by Flybe) you earn Finnair Plus points according to the normal Finnair Plus table found here.


Tier points and tier benefits:

For flight numbers AY3722-AY3999, you will earn tier points in addition to your award points. For flights AY8100–AY8700 Finnair Plus member is not able to earn tier points, only award points. Also for BE coded flights, you can earn only Finnair Plus award points, not tier points.


Normal tier benefits are available for Finnair tier members on flight numbers AY3722-3999 and AY8100–AY8700. For flights with BE flight designator on the ticket tier benefits are not available."

http://pluspartners.finnair.com/Eng/earn%20plus%20points/Air/Flybe/Default.aspx

So they have changed it...it's quite usual with AY that they first go public with something and then when they realize it doesn't work they change it again...I'd assume 20 years of experience with FF scheme they should know better..

Well, it was very clearly stated before that no tier benefits were available for these flights.

OK, to clear it up the rules of the day seems to be:
AY8xxx - No tier-points, no lounge, no online checkin, pay for service onboard. Awardpoints flat rate 1000/500, 1 extra luggage according to AY+ status, but overweight fees according to BE-rules.

AY3722-3999 still considered "normal" AY flights, where AY+ status is recognized and honored.

Slightly better than I though, but still crazy. For example, the newly outsourced connection from Sweden to HEL, where I used to be able to
earn 3750 award and tier points, check in luggage for my connection flight according to normal AY-rules, go to lounge before take-off, eat and drink onboard... Please tell me why "via helsinki" is a good choice now? Adding Stockholm to the list of downgraded destinations seems really silly.

Also crazy to require customers to know and understand that rules are different depending on what flight number your FINNAIR flight has.

If they came clean and said "BE is our LCC and it will have this separate service concept" then I would be OK with that. I could make my choice of what I wanted. But hiding this concept behind AY flight numbers, selling it at AY fares and creating a new subset of rules is dishonest to me. I feel I cannot trust the brand.

So they have changed it...it's quite usual with AY that they first go public with something and then when they realize it doesn't work they change it again...I'd assume 20 years of experience with FF scheme they should know better..
This was posted on the 19th Oct, that is before BE Nordic started on 30th October: (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/17301281-post1.html)
So the flight have been earning award points since the beginning, and also been eligible for tier benefits apart from lounges early on.

The only change that I see is the lounge access.

Well, it was very clearly stated before that no tier benefits were available for these flights.

OK, to clear it up the rules of the day seems to be:
AY8xxx - No tier-points, no lounge, no online checkin, pay for service onboard. Awardpoints flat rate 1000/500, 1 extra luggage according to AY+ status, but overweight fees according to BE-rules.

AY3722-3999 still considered "normal" AY flights, where AY+ status is recognized and honored.

Slightly better than I though, but still crazy. For example, the newly outsourced connection from Sweden to HEL, where I used to be able to
earn 3750 award and tier points, check in luggage for my connection flight according to normal AY-rules, go to lounge before take-off, eat and drink onboard... Please tell me why "via helsinki" is a good choice now? Adding Stockholm to the list of downgraded destinations seems really silly.

Also crazy to require customers to know and understand that rules are different depending on what flight number your FINNAIR flight has.

If they came clean and said "BE is our LCC and it will have this separate service concept" then I would be OK with that. I could make my choice of what I wanted. But hiding this concept behind AY flight numbers, selling it at AY fares and creating a new subset of rules is dishonest to me. I feel I cannot trust the brand.
Source for no lounge access?
Today the Ay page mentions no exception for lounge access in tier benefits, in fact they have specifically removed the exception that was there before, which would seem weird if the policy was unchanged. (See: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/17528310-post23.html)

And when and where was it clearly stated that no tier benefits at all, if on the 19th Oct. it was clearly stated that tier benefits other than lounge do apply. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/17301281-post1.html)
As far as I know with AY->AY tickets you should have no problems checking luggage through on separate tickets, and definitely no problem on a same ticket connection.

And how does "hiding different service concepts behind an AY number" differ from any other code-shares? Will AA serve me free drinks if I'm on a AY code-share to ORD? Didn't think so, hiding inferior service behind an AY code those ba****ds...

Also what Swedish connection being downgraded to BE code-share (AY8xxx) are you referring to, have I missed something?

This was posted on the 19th Oct, that is before BE Nordic started on 30th October: (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/17301281-post1.html)
So the flight have been earning award points since the beginning, and also been eligible for tier benefits apart from lounges early on.

The only change that I see is the lounge access.


Source for no lounge access?
Today the Ay page mentions no exception for lounge access in tier benefits, in fact they have specifically removed the exception that was there before, which would seem weird if the policy was unchanged. (See: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/17528310-post23.html)

And when and where was it clearly stated that no tier benefits at all, if on the 19th Oct. it was clearly stated that tier benefits other than lounge do apply. (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/17301281-post1.html)
As far as I know with AY->AY tickets you should have no problems checking luggage through on separate tickets, and definitely no problem on a same ticket connection.

And how does "hiding different service concepts behind an AY number" differ from any other code-shares? Will AA serve me free drinks if I'm on a AY code-share to ORD? Didn't think so, hiding inferior service behind an AY code those ba****ds...

Also what Swedish connection being downgraded to BE code-share (AY8xxx) are you referring to, have I missed something?

The press-release (http://www.finnair.com/finnaircom/wps/portal/finnair/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKL9473MgLJgFguPvqRqC LOnqgiLvHO3nCRoNS8-GBXfV-P_NxUoHSkOVDY3NFLPyonNT0xuVI_WN9bP0C_IDc0NKLc2xEA5 Fq18g!!/delta/base64xml/L0lJSk03dWlDU1lKSi9vQXd3QUFNWWdBQ0VJUWhDRUVJaEZLQS EvNEZHZ2RZbktKMEZSb1hmckNHOVUvN19LXzdBSi8zMjY!?PC_ 7_K_7AJ_path=%2fFinnair.Com%2fNews%2fCom_News_1110 27_Cooperation_Finnair_Flybe_en#7_K_7AJ) says (my bold-ing) "Reservations to AY8000 flights are made through Finnair's reservation channels, while BE5000 flights are booked through Flybe's reservation channels.

Flybe' onboard service, which is subject to charge, applies on these flights. Passengers with Finnair flight numbers (AY) do not have access to lounges. Check-in on Finnair's website and at the check-in kiosks will be possible at a later point."

That text may (or may not) relate to access for J-tix only. I cannot find the text I read before, but as far as I recall it said clearly "no tier benefits". From this I deduct that lounge access is not permitted, regardless of ticket class, regardless of AY+ status. I believe I have read it, but surely the mind can play tricks on me.



The HEL to Norrköping and Stockholm Bromma is on the list of flights transferred to BE.


Well, AA may not serve you drinks on a AY codeshare, but they will honor the trip as being a AY flight. You will have tier benefits, you will earn points.
In this case it is a AY owned airline, with AY code, flying routes that used to be AY operated. But without fully honoring the AY+status or the AY rules. In my opinion it is a little bit worse than "any other codeshare".

On the luggage issue my interpretation is that I may free of charge take the same number of bags as on AY, but bags over 23kg will be charged for overweight according to BE rules. The AY rule of "convert one bag allowance to extra kilos" will not apply.

The press-release (http://www.finnair.com/finnaircom/wps/portal/finnair/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKL9473MgLJgFguPvqRqC LOnqgiLvHO3nCRoNS8-GBXfV-P_NxUoHSkOVDY3NFLPyonNT0xuVI_WN9bP0C_IDc0NKLc2xEA5 Fq18g!!/delta/base64xml/L0lJSk03dWlDU1lKSi9vQXd3QUFNWWdBQ0VJUWhDRUVJaEZLQS EvNEZHZ2RZbktKMEZSb1hmckNHOVUvN19LXzdBSi8zMjY!?PC_ 7_K_7AJ_path=%2fFinnair.Com%2fNews%2fCom_News_1110 27_Cooperation_Finnair_Flybe_en#7_K_7AJ) says (my bold-ing) "Reservations to AY8000 flights are made through Finnair's reservation channels, while BE5000 flights are booked through Flybe's reservation channels.

Flybe' onboard service, which is subject to charge, applies on these flights. Passengers with Finnair flight numbers (AY) do not have access to lounges. Check-in on Finnair's website and at the check-in kiosks will be possible at a later point."

That text may (or may not) relate to access for J-tix only. I cannot find the text I read before, but as far as I recall it said clearly "no tier benefits". From this I deduct that lounge access is not permitted, regardless of ticket class, regardless of AY+ status. I believe I have read it, but surely the mind can play tricks on me.
Yes, and that (lounge access) is what has changed in the AY webpage since that. I still see no mentioning of no class benefits.

The HEL to Norrköping and Stockholm Bromma is on the list of flights transferred to BE.

BMA is AY3xxx, so it'll have AY service concept and earn tier points as before, AY baggage rules apply including overweight fees etc. Isn't AY the only airline that offers you a choice of airport in STO anyway?

When did Finnair operate to NRK?

Well, AA may not serve you drinks on a AY codeshare, but they will honor the trip as being a AY flight. You will have tier benefits, you will earn points.
In this case it is a AY owned airline, with AY code, flying routes that used to be AY operated. But without fully honoring the AY+status or the AY rules. In my opinion it is a little bit worse than "any other codeshare".
There are not at least too many AY8xxx flights that used to be AY operated, AY3xxx then again is "fully honored AY+status and AY+ rules". Also, you will have tier benefits on AY8xxx flights, just not tier points.
"Normal tier benefits are available for Finnair tier members on flight numbers AY3722-3999 and AY8100–AY8700. For flights with BE flight designator on the ticket tier benefits are not available. "
http://pluspartners.finnair.com/Eng/earn%20plus%20points/Air/Flybe/Default.aspx

Not as bad as I thought. Confusing, though.

I assume you will have lounge access based on elite status even if you're on an AY8xxx flight. However, there is no J class and thus no class based lounge access on these flights.

Furthermore, I assume that you will earn miles and tier points in the BA and AA programmes if you are on an AY3xxx flight, but not if you are on an AY8xxx flight.

The doc I am referring to (the 27.10.2011 press release) is still published on the site, both in the news section and in the plus section. But in the BE earnings table contains this other information that mkgrip is referring to.

The press release includes the information that HEL-BMA is to be under BE concept and served by AY8xxx flights. But I can also see that HEL-BMA books into AY31xx and AY36xx later in the year (currently it books as AY983,982). So a plausible explanation is that the list of flights to be under BE concept is incorrect. But I trusted the press release.


As for BMA, AY983 is 2 class, AY31xx is one class, ie there will soon be no J-tix and therefore no pax that can demand lounge access based on class. Does any of BE operated flights offer 2 class? Maybe not, and therefore no mention of class benefits.

HEL-NRK books into AY8xxx, my mistake to think that it was a "true" AY service in the first place.


The same document clearly states that BE overweight fees will apply. I cannot find any documents saying the opposite.
I have no idea what that info means, as BE luggage concept itself is quite confusing. They charge for small, medium and large bags, equivalent of 15,20 and 40 kg. But if you pay for overweight you may only check a 23 Kg bag.

It also specifies that "Finnair Plus Platinum, Gold and Silver members as well as oneworld Emerald, Sapphire and Ruby members may check in 1 extra bag also on AY8000 series code-share flights. " which is nice but extremely confusing as this otherwise is only allowed on AY operated flights.

For me tier points is what matters, but that is of course a personal taste. For others, BE operated is probably just fine. Sorry for the bash over nothing in that case.
I will however look twice before booking anything offered by Finnair that isn't operated by AY or trusted OW airlines.

Class benefits was my typo, what I meant was tier benefits.

Also, I have no trouble booking a J ticket for the BMA AY3xxx and the seatmap shows a separe business cabin.

As for BMA, AY983 is 2 class, AY31xx is one class, ie there will soon be no J-tix and therefore no pax that can demand lounge access based on class. Does any of BE operated flights offer 2 class? Maybe not, and therefore no mention of class benefits.

Are you sure the Bromma flights will be one class, at least you can make a business class booking. The same applies to the Geneva flights and the soon to be finished flights to Stuttgart.

Well, it seems I am not doing much right today :(
I did a search and got an error for J class on BMA-HEL for future dates, but succeded for tomorrow. Concluded it was after AY983 was gone.

But now even I can manage to get a J seat for future BMA-flights....:D

Also, some airlines (eg: IB in OW or BD in *A) have even more restrictive rules and exclude any earning on non-partners even if the flight has their own (i.e. IB or BD in this example) code.Also, some airlines (eg: SK in *A) have even more restrictive rules and exclude any earning on their own metal if the flight has a code-share partner's (e.g., SU in this example) code.

cheers,

Henry